JAX/JIA updates

[JaxAvondale]

^This is true! As someone who has taken over 5 late notice flights this year, I can't rely on 2 or 4 day a week service. So, I end up flying American, Delta, or SW.

[TimmyB]

I don't fly all that often, but I am doing significantly more now that I am retired and I kind of see it as a glass half-full.  It matters little to me that I can't fly non-stop to all that many places from JAX.  It would be nice, but I realize that's never going to be the reality.  However, in a one-hour hop, I can be in ATL and fly to anywhere in the country in one more stop, and many international destinations as well.  For example, my main destination is GRR.  I can be there by 10:30 AM with a simple connection in Atlanta.  A non-stop would be great, but I can tell you, if it comes down to one stop with Delta versus a non-stop on an LCC, Delta will win every time with my money.

[Adam White]

A non-stop would be great, but I can tell you, if it comes down to one stop with Delta versus a non-stop on an LCC, Delta will win every time with my money.

[ben says]

Disagree - the thing that drives higher fares and more profitable routes that stick around are the business travelers, not the leisure ones. You might see an Allegiant or a Frontier try a JAX-California route, but I doubt it succeeds. With the major carriers, you get a fair number of people either paying for First Class, or willing to pay $750+ to fly Coach to California on short notice. Those people are less than 50% of the plane, but significantly more than 50% of the revenue of the flight. That is what keeps a flight going day in and day out. Business travelers also can't rely on a 2 or 4 day a week service - I'm never going to move my flight a day to take advantage of a nonstop.

While the major leisure destinations might be able to sustain on tons of leisure travelers (Orlando, Vegas, etc.), I don't see leisure travel helping JAX at all when it comes to longer distance flights - Las Vegas being an exception.

Exactly. Airlines care about biz pax, not leisure travelers. There´s a reason leisure destinations always lag behind biz destinations when it comes to convenience flights. (It´s why Barcelona has 1/10th the flights Madrid does, despite having 32x the yearly passengers).

Airlines only care about first and biz class pax, and those pax willing to pay flex rates (ie, higher rates) on the cheap seats. So where a leisure traveler buys the cheapest available coach ticket at 250 a pop, a biz traveler may 750 for the same ticket solely because it´s flexible.

Leisure travelers have almost no clout when it comes to deciding routes, unfortunately...at least when we´re talking about DL/AA/UA (vs. the ULCCs).

[Steve]

I don't fly all that often, but I am doing significantly more now that I am retired and I kind of see it as a glass half-full.  It matters little to me that I can't fly non-stop to all that many places from JAX.  It would be nice, but I realize that's never going to be the reality.  However, in a one-hour hop, I can be in ATL and fly to anywhere in the country in one more stop, and many international destinations as well.  For example, my main destination is GRR.  I can be there by 10:30 AM with a simple connection in Atlanta.  A non-stop would be great, but I can tell you, if it comes down to one stop with Delta versus a non-stop on an LCC, Delta will win every time with my money.

That's a fair perspective. From a business traveler's perspective, the non-stops can make a difference. I don't ever see one from JAX to Grand Rapids, but I get your point. As a Delta loyalist, that's usually what I end up doing - flight to ATL then I generally have decent availability to most places. However, a non-stop can however make the difference between spending 1-2 nights versus possibly not spending a night at all.

I'm a little biased, but from my perspective I'd love Delta to add Salt Lake City (their main western hub, because some smaller places out west are now two stop itineraries from here), and I'd love another crack at LAX, especially now that Delta has and is continuing to expand there, and would give better availability for Asia flights with Delta.

Unfortunately, I think we're a ways off from a Europe flight. If it happened, it would likely be British Airways or Virgin Atlantic to London, as JAX is a strong place for both American (BA Partner) and Delta (who owns 49% of Virgin). I think Frankfurt, despite the Deutsche Bank thing is going to be very hard. Deutsche is not doing well, and Lufthansa's partner is United, which doesn't have a great presence here.

[Snaketoz]

Sorry folks, but you are misinformed. On average, trips in the US in 2017 were heavily leisure over business.  1779.7 million vs 466.2 million.  Leisure flying has a lot of clout.  Take our JAX for instance-it's always been considered a "business" airport.  Fares are higher and our passenger count stagnant.  We are smaller than many airports south of us due to the leisure travelers.  There are probably more direct flights out of Fort Meyers than Jax.  How do you think MCO, FLL and Palm Beach have surpassed JAX?  When JAX draws more tourists and seasonal visitors, our airport will boom.  In the 60s I had a friend living in the DC area who flew to JAX to visit Orlando, which was then using an air force base as their airport.  Disney came in and bam, look at Orlando now. 

[TimmyB]

Sorry folks, but you are misinformed. On average, trips in the US in 2017 were heavily leisure over business.  1779.7 million vs 466.2 million.  Leisure flying has a lot of clout.  Take our JAX for instance-it's always been considered a "business" airport.  Fares are higher and our passenger count stagnant.  We are smaller than many airports south of us due to the leisure travelers.  There are probably more direct flights out of Fort Meyers than Jax.  How do you think MCO, FLL and Palm Beach have surpassed JAX?  When JAX draws more tourists and seasonal visitors, our airport will boom.  In the 60s I had a friend living in the DC area who flew to JAX to visit Orlando, which was then using an air force base as their airport.  Disney came in and bam, look at Orlando now.

I've said it before, so forgive my redundancy: I would guarantee that less than 30% of Americans know where the TPC is played.  They can name Sawgrass, they might even know Ponte Vedra Beach, but if you asked them what airport you'd fly into to get there, you'd get a blank stare.  For the life of me, I don't know why the Duval CVB has failed to capitalize on making Jacksonville the ultimate golf destination.  THAT'S where the tourism is going to be for this area: beaches and golf.  We don't need to compete with the kiddie playland that is Orlando and we will never have the cool of Miami Beach. 

[ProjectMaximus]

Sorry folks, but you are misinformed. On average, trips in the US in 2017 were heavily leisure over business.  1779.7 million vs 466.2 million.  Leisure flying has a lot of clout.  Take our JAX for instance-it's always been considered a "business" airport.  Fares are higher and our passenger count stagnant.  We are smaller than many airports south of us due to the leisure travelers.  There are probably more direct flights out of Fort Meyers than Jax.  How do you think MCO, FLL and Palm Beach have surpassed JAX?  When JAX draws more tourists and seasonal visitors, our airport will boom.  In the 60s I had a friend living in the DC area who flew to JAX to visit Orlando, which was then using an air force base as their airport.  Disney came in and bam, look at Orlando now.

Hmm, Steve and ben would be the two most knowledgeable posters about the airline/travel business, and honestly what they said was exactly what I have read about the industry in the past. So I would agree with them. You compared the number of trips taken, but what is the ticket cost comparison??

Leisure flying brings the LCCs, but not the legacy airlines. As I said in my other post, this is what happens when we are a medium-sized non-hub. We will see growth in LCCs but the rest will be a struggle.

BTW you mentioned Fort Myers...that airport is almost all LCCs and fairly seasonal. All four ULCCs are active there (Spirit, Allegiant, Frontier and Sun Country) and when you add in Southwest, JetBlue, West Jet and Air Canada Rouge it seems that most of the service is LCCs.

[Snaketoz]

Sorry folks, but you are misinformed. On average, trips in the US in 2017 were heavily leisure over business.  1779.7 million vs 466.2 million.  Leisure flying has a lot of clout.  Take our JAX for instance-it's always been considered a "business" airport.  Fares are higher and our passenger count stagnant.  We are smaller than many airports south of us due to the leisure travelers.  There are probably more direct flights out of Fort Meyers than Jax.  How do you think MCO, FLL and Palm Beach have surpassed JAX?  When JAX draws more tourists and seasonal visitors, our airport will boom.  In the 60s I had a friend living in the DC area who flew to JAX to visit Orlando, which was then using an air force base as their airport.  Disney came in and bam, look at Orlando now.

Hmm, Steve and ben would be the two most knowledgeable posters about the airline/travel business, and honestly what they said was exactly what I have read about the industry in the past. So I would agree with them. You compared the number of trips taken, but what is the ticket cost comparison??

Leisure flying brings the LCCs, but not the legacy airlines. As I said in my other post, this is what happens when we are a medium-sized non-hub. We will see growth in LCCs but the rest will be a struggle.

BTW you mentioned Fort Myers...that airport is almost all LCCs and fairly seasonal. All four ULCCs are active there (Spirit, Allegiant, Frontier and Sun Country) and when you add in Southwest, JetBlue, West Jet and Air Canada Rouge it seems that most of the service is LCCs.

It seems that everyone picks and chooses what they want to believe and go by what they feel rather than what is fact.  How did we get into which or what kind of carrier, or fares, or anything else for that matter other than to try and prove a point.  If you want to fly to LA or SFO or SLC, having regular nonstop service is preferable to connecting service.  Are you talking about JetBlue?  I'll fly JetBlue non stop to LAX.  Alaska Air?  The LCCs are competing and competing well.  Skip the semantics.  I thought we were talking flights and our ability to fly into and out of, JAX easily.  Ask anyone on JAA's board what we need to improve service here.  I'm only saying what they are saying.

[ProjectMaximus]

It seems that everyone picks and chooses what they want to believe and go by what they feel rather than what is fact.  How did we get into which or what kind of carrier, or fares, or anything else for that matter other than to try and prove a point.  If you want to fly to LA or SFO or SLC, having regular nonstop service is preferable to connecting service.  Are you talking about JetBlue?  I'll fly JetBlue non stop to LAX.  Alaska Air?  The LCCs are competing and competing well.  Skip the semantics.  I thought we were talking flights and our ability to fly into and out of, JAX easily.  Ask anyone on JAA's board what we need to improve service here.  I'm only saying what they are saying.

I think we are all trying to say too many things and aren't stating them clearly. Sorry for that. I guess in my mind I was stuck on your first two posts which I responded to on the previous page. And everything you complained about in those two posts are the reality for LCCs and courting leisure travelers. Business travelers can buoy "underused" flights and help deliver non-seasonal, daily flight service.

It's always great to hear of new flights out of JAX.  The only problem is all but the Las Vegas flights are just seasonal and not everyday.

I think Jacksonville gets slighted as far as routes are concerned.  Airlines will keep underused flights going in other markets, but will stop them in JAX.  I think if another airline had LAX flights, Delta would have kept them.  There are routes in other cities that are always near empty, but they continue.  JetBlue cancelled the JAX-San Juan flights even though the flights were full (according to friends).  Our time is coming....I hope.

If you want to deal with the facts, you might acknowledge that business travelers account for several times their share of airline revenue and  in some cases a majority of the profits despite, as you noted, averaging just 20% of the trips.

[Snaketoz]

It seems that everyone picks and chooses what they want to believe and go by what they feel rather than what is fact.  How did we get into which or what kind of carrier, or fares, or anything else for that matter other than to try and prove a point.  If you want to fly to LA or SFO or SLC, having regular nonstop service is preferable to connecting service.  Are you talking about JetBlue?  I'll fly JetBlue non stop to LAX.  Alaska Air?  The LCCs are competing and competing well.  Skip the semantics.  I thought we were talking flights and our ability to fly into and out of, JAX easily.  Ask anyone on JAA's board what we need to improve service here.  I'm only saying what they are saying.

I think we are all trying to say too many things and aren't stating them clearly. Sorry for that. I guess in my mind I was stuck on your first two posts which I responded to on the previous page. And everything you complained about in those two posts are the reality for LCCs and courting leisure travelers. Business travelers can buoy "underused" flights and help deliver non-seasonal, daily flight service.

It's always great to hear of new flights out of JAX.  The only problem is all but the Las Vegas flights are just seasonal and not everyday.

I think Jacksonville gets slighted as far as routes are concerned.  Airlines will keep underused flights going in other markets, but will stop them in JAX.  I think if another airline had LAX flights, Delta would have kept them.  There are routes in other cities that are always near empty, but they continue.  JetBlue cancelled the JAX-San Juan flights even though the flights were full (according to friends).  Our time is coming....I hope.

If you want to deal with the facts, you might acknowledge that business travelers account for several times their share of airline revenue and  in some cases a majority of the profits despite, as you noted, averaging just 20% of the trips.

I won't acknowledge that, but what you say is true, to a point.  How many seats and how many aircraft do you think would be needed to handle business traffic at JIA?  You are dealing with very old thinking.  Many, if not most, businesses of any size today have their own aircraft.  The lower ranking business travelers doing most of the flying are flying leisure class on airlines.  When I was in the military flying out of Imeson it seemed that business travelers ruled in Jacksonville, and indeed they did.  We are living in a different time now.  Imeson had nonstops to San Frnacisco, KC, St. Louis, most major and regional cities.  Charleston, SC, New Orleans, Cleveland.  Then we got the hub and spoke system.  The cities with the largest amount of travelers kept most of their routes, JAX didn't.  Say what you want about the LCCs, but they will bring the legacy carriers if they prosper.  Low cost carriers are perfect for JIA.  We are a relatively low wage area and more people will fly if the fares are low.  How many people do you know that drive to Orlando for cheaper fares?  Before we finally attracted Allegiant, people drove to Sanford for the fares, and nonstops.  Some of these LC airlines with the cheap seats will turn into Southwests and JetBlues.  Those two airlines that were once snickered at, are now two of the higher rated airlines in the country.  Same with Alaska Air.  The airlines don't care about a city, they care about butts in the seats.  If it's business in 1st class, great.  If not, they will gladly fly the tourists sweating the bag and carryon fees.  My family has had many members in the aviation community since the 40s.  From an airline captain, a city commissioner involved in the airports, to a secretary to the JAA.  Things have changed.  You can't bank on the business flyer if you want to build capacity.  It's all about profits.  They will cram as many people as possible on a plane and charge for air if they can.  The legacy hub and spoke is not helping Jacksonville, the LCCs will.

[jaxjags]

It seems that everyone picks and chooses what they want to believe and go by what they feel rather than what is fact.  How did we get into which or what kind of carrier, or fares, or anything else for that matter other than to try and prove a point.  If you want to fly to LA or SFO or SLC, having regular nonstop service is preferable to connecting service.  Are you talking about JetBlue?  I'll fly JetBlue non stop to LAX.  Alaska Air?  The LCCs are competing and competing well.  Skip the semantics.  I thought we were talking flights and our ability to fly into and out of, JAX easily.  Ask anyone on JAA's board what we need to improve service here.  I'm only saying what they are saying.

I used to fly in those days. Cannot be compared to toady as the airlines were very heavily regulated by the government. Both routes and fares were set. There was no competition. Then came deregulation and Peoples Airline out of NJ. Flying for the leisure traveler became a reality. But to compare today to the 60s and 70s in not even close.

I think we are all trying to say too many things and aren't stating them clearly. Sorry for that. I guess in my mind I was stuck on your first two posts which I responded to on the previous page. And everything you complained about in those two posts are the reality for LCCs and courting leisure travelers. Business travelers can buoy "underused" flights and help deliver non-seasonal, daily flight service.

It's always great to hear of new flights out of JAX.  The only problem is all but the Las Vegas flights are just seasonal and not everyday.

I think Jacksonville gets slighted as far as routes are concerned.  Airlines will keep underused flights going in other markets, but will stop them in JAX.  I think if another airline had LAX flights, Delta would have kept them.  There are routes in other cities that are always near empty, but they continue.  JetBlue cancelled the JAX-San Juan flights even though the flights were full (according to friends).  Our time is coming....I hope.

If you want to deal with the facts, you might acknowledge that business travelers account for several times their share of airline revenue and  in some cases a majority of the profits despite, as you noted, averaging just 20% of the trips.

I won't acknowledge that, but what you say is true, to a point.  How many seats and how many aircraft do you think would be needed to handle business traffic at JIA?  You are dealing with very old thinking.  Many, if not most, businesses of any size today have their own aircraft.  The lower ranking business travelers doing most of the flying are flying leisure class on airlines.  When I was in the military flying out of Imeson it seemed that business travelers ruled in Jacksonville, and indeed they did.  We are living in a different time now.  Imeson had nonstops to San Frnacisco, KC, St. Louis, most major and regional cities.  Charleston, SC, New Orleans, Cleveland.  Then we got the hub and spoke system.  The cities with the largest amount of travelers kept most of their routes, JAX didn't.  Say what you want about the LCCs, but they will bring the legacy carriers if they prosper.  Low cost carriers are perfect for JIA.  We are a relatively low wage area and more people will fly if the fares are low.  How many people do you know that drive to Orlando for cheaper fares?  Before we finally attracted Allegiant, people drove to Sanford for the fares, and nonstops.  Some of these LC airlines with the cheap seats will turn into Southwests and JetBlues.  Those two airlines that were once snickered at, are now two of the higher rated airlines in the country.  Same with Alaska Air.  The airlines don't care about a city, they care about butts in the seats.  If it's business in 1st class, great.  If not, they will gladly fly the tourists sweating the bag and carryon fees.  My family has had many members in the aviation community since the 40s.  From an airline captain, a city commissioner involved in the airports, to a secretary to the JAA.  Things have changed.  You can't bank on the business flyer if you want to build capacity.  It's all about profits.  They will cram as many people as possible on a plane and charge for air if they can.  The legacy hub and spoke is not helping Jacksonville, the LCCs will.

[jaxjags]

I used to fly in those days. Cannot be compared to toady as the airlines were very heavily regulated by the government. Both routes and fares were set. There was no competition. Then came deregulation and Peoples Airline out of NJ. Flying for the leisure traveler became a reality. But to compare today to the 60s and 70s in not even close.

[Steve]

Sorry folks, but you are misinformed. On average, trips in the US in 2017 were heavily leisure over business.  1779.7 million vs 466.2 million.  Leisure flying has a lot of clout.  Take our JAX for instance-it's always been considered a "business" airport.  Fares are higher and our passenger count stagnant.  We are smaller than many airports south of us due to the leisure travelers.  There are probably more direct flights out of Fort Meyers than Jax.  How do you think MCO, FLL and Palm Beach have surpassed JAX?  When JAX draws more tourists and seasonal visitors, our airport will boom.  In the 60s I had a friend living in the DC area who flew to JAX to visit Orlando, which was then using an air force base as their airport.  Disney came in and bam, look at Orlando now. 

I think you're missing my point here. Yes, there are more leisure travelers than business travelers (I'd like to see the source on your numbers because the numbers I've seen aren't nearly that extreme, but yes - there are more leisure travelers than business travelers).

Orlando is sort of the extreme example. I do acknowledge that if something anywhere near Disney-size opened in Jacksonville we'd see a huge expansion at JAX. Further, if load factors were overly high because of leisure growth then yes, some carrier would either expand a route or add one. Wasn't really the point I was making.

[Steve]

It seems that everyone picks and chooses what they want to believe and go by what they feel rather than what is fact.  How did we get into which or what kind of carrier, or fares, or anything else for that matter other than to try and prove a point.  If you want to fly to LA or SFO or SLC, having regular nonstop service is preferable to connecting service.  Are you talking about JetBlue?  I'll fly JetBlue non stop to LAX.  Alaska Air?  The LCCs are competing and competing well.  Skip the semantics.  I thought we were talking flights and our ability to fly into and out of, JAX easily.  Ask anyone on JAA's board what we need to improve service here.  I'm only saying what they are saying.

I have no issue with flying Alaska or JetBlue (or any airline other than allegiant for that matter). Alaska really isn't a LCC, they were just more of a regional airline, but with the Virgin America acquisition they will be either #5 or #6 in america with JetBlue being the other one. JetBlue also isn't a LCC in the truest sense, but more of a regional carrier as well. With their Mint service they truly are competing against the big boys on those routes. For those based at a JetBlue Hub (BOS/JFK/FLL), they are a GREAT option.

Certainly, any carrier adding flights to JAX is a good thing, even if twice a week and seasonal. It isn't bad, so long as the airport authority grants them space commensurate with the flight frequency. In other words, don't give preferential gate access to a carrier for a route like that, because then another carrier might be hamstrung to add capacity/another route.

I think Jacksonville gets slighted as far as routes are concerned.  Airlines will keep underused flights going in other markets, but will stop them in JAX.  I think if another airline had LAX flights, Delta would have kept them.  There are routes in other cities that are always near empty, but they continue.  JetBlue cancelled the JAX-San Juan flights even though the flights were full (according to friends).  Our time is coming....I hope.

For JAX-San Juan, I heard the same thing so I'm not sure why they cancelled it. My guess is (no facts to back this up) is that JetBlue felt that the aircraft could be more profitable on another route. This is where the whole PRASM (Passenger Revenue per Available Seat Mile) thing come in. If say they felt that by operating the route out of Fort Lauderdale hub then they could charge per per person, on a shorter flight (less fuel), then they may have made that call. It may have not even been the JAX-San Juan route. It could have been something having to do with how the plane was utilized before/after the flight; maybe something didn't line up well and they were getting killed on that, and JAX-San Juan was the "innocent bystander in that".

I won't acknowledge that, but what you say is true, to a point.  How many seats and how many aircraft do you think would be needed to handle business traffic at JIA?  You are dealing with very old thinking.  Many, if not most, businesses of any size today have their own aircraft.  The lower ranking business travelers doing most of the flying are flying leisure class on airlines.  When I was in the military flying out of Imeson it seemed that business travelers ruled in Jacksonville, and indeed they did.  We are living in a different time now.  Imeson had nonstops to San Frnacisco, KC, St. Louis, most major and regional cities.  Charleston, SC, New Orleans, Cleveland.  Then we got the hub and spoke system.  The cities with the largest amount of travelers kept most of their routes, JAX didn't.  Say what you want about the LCCs, but they will bring the legacy carriers if they prosper.  Low cost carriers are perfect for JIA.  We are a relatively low wage area and more people will fly if the fares are low.  How many people do you know that drive to Orlando for cheaper fares?  Before we finally attracted Allegiant, people drove to Sanford for the fares, and nonstops.  Some of these LC airlines with the cheap seats will turn into Southwests and JetBlues.  Those two airlines that were once snickered at, are now two of the higher rated airlines in the country.  Same with Alaska Air.  The airlines don't care about a city, they care about butts in the seats.  If it's business in 1st class, great.  If not, they will gladly fly the tourists sweating the bag and carryon fees.  My family has had many members in the aviation community since the 40s.  From an airline captain, a city commissioner involved in the airports, to a secretary to the JAA.  Things have changed.  You can't bank on the business flyer if you want to build capacity.  It's all about profits.  They will cram as many people as possible on a plane and charge for air if they can.  The legacy hub and spoke is not helping Jacksonville, the LCCs will.

There's a few things I'll touch on here:

- Yes, many businesses have access to private planes. Very few own it themselves, because it's easier to work with someone else for upkeep/maintenance/etc. but I get your point. My company actually has their own plane. Now, I've never been in it and maybe never will. That's not because it isn't offered. The aircraft is flown based on Ownership/Executive need, so if there are empty seats (I want to say it holds then they will email out the route it's flying and if you have a need to go there, then you can get a seat. The issue is our company has about 3,000 people, and about 100 (including me) have a legit need to travel on a frequent basis. I'm not based at our Mothership, so for me to have a need to travel somewhere where the plane happens to be going (at the exact times I need to be there mind you), Then it might make sense to drive 3 hours to our headquarters and then 3 hours home when I get back to take the flight. My point is a VERY small percentage of overall business travel is done on private planes compared to commercial. Most companies won't pay for even First Class unless it's an executive traveling (or if over a pond they may pay for Long Haul Business which is usually quite nice).

Fundamentally, I actually agree with much of your post. Yes, LCCs have a business model that works - if they didn't then they'd be out of business.  Southwest has made some very good business decisions that helped them a TON over the years (the biggest being their fuel hedges in the 2000s and their long term decision to fly one single aircraft - makes maintenance and scheduling MUCH easier.

I'd also agree that the industry hasn't been friendly overall to JAX. Through the airline consolidation, JAX did end up losing out on some routes - some of which were decisions outside of JAX. We no longer have a non-stop to St. Louis not because of JAX in any way, but it was a TWA Hub. When AA bought them, they dumped the hub - simple as that.

One thing you said which I question is that you're implying that Nonstop is always better than a Connection, which most frequent business travelers may question (depending on the routing and length of a connection obviously). For me, I will stick with Delta 99% of the time, even to markets like Chicago and DFW where JAX has nonstops. Personally, I do it for the miles - I'm away from home a bit, which can suck, but having the miles to be able to take my family on vacation softens the blow. Also, while at the time allegiant had a non-stop from JAX-New Orleans, I took Delta as allegiant's maintenance record scared the He11 out of me. Also, the flight times didn't line up and I'd have to spend an extra night to boot. I'm sure you know that flight times are a huge component of a business traveler's decision. When I went to Boston a couple months ago, I took the non-stop on Delta up, but had to connect on the way down. The trip back was only offered as a non-stop as a 6AM departure. I had a morning meeting, so either I spent another night or I connected on the way home - easy decision.

It's not that I don't think Leisure Routes aren't good for JAX. I just question whether or not they end up sticking around for the long term, or do they change as the wind blows. The fact is, the business routes do have a higher PRASM than leisure routes - that can't really be disputed. Yes, increasing the tourism base will help, but in the end Business Traveler and their wallets are going to be preferred.