(http://faculty.washington.edu/jbs/itrans/jack3.jpg)
(http://www.specarcsys.com/images/JaxTran2.jpg)
(http://faculty.washington.edu/jbs/itrans/jack1.jpg)
Got a question for all of you...
Let's supose an amazing new privatization movement swept through Jacksonville. Let's say the government had some funds to assist you along, maybe $30 Mil or so in capital improvements, and they called you up and offered you the Skyway System.
Here's the "Contract"
You must keep the system running, but you CAN alter it, in anyway, extend it, change the trains, guideway, stations, locations, etc... That $30 Million capital expense money, is enough to add at least 2 miles and a bunch of nice, or? Just so you keep at least the current miles running through downtown. The City says they have your back, on O&M charges, but they do expect YOU to turn the darn thing around - MAKE IT WORK. Along with your new title, you'll get some oversight on JTA, on other transit routes etc... You've got 5 years to make it jump - or out you go...
What do you do?
I know, "Ock, surely you can't be serious?"
"I am serious, and don't call me Shirley."
Jokes are fine here, but PLEASE try and offer something REAL to the theme of the thread FIRST!
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/34/Jacksonville_Skyway.jpg/180px-Jacksonville_Skyway.jpg)
(http://www.urban-photos.com/gallery/albums/city_galleries/jacksonville/thumb_jax_2260.jpg)
(http://www.urban-photos.com/gallery/albums/city_galleries/jacksonville/thumb_jax_2258.jpg)
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/OcklawahaSignature.jpg)
(The quote below was deleted as the poster violated the rules of the game, but it was left here for context in this smart reply... BTW- Theme parks are building "Skyways" for far less then 15Mil a mile. Moderator)Quote from: apvbguy on October 01, 2008, 01:01:03 AM
30 million would barely fund stairways to platforms in 1 station, play your games with real numbers, a few hundred million a mile seems to be what it takes these days to build a rail system, then there are continuing labor, operating and capital costs that need to be met. It's nice to dream but unfortunately we don't live in a dream world
30 million for stairways? Man, you're getting jacked. I'll do it for 25 and save you a few million.
First of, I'd drop a short extension and a station in Brooklyn. Maybe a few blocks south of the maintenance barn leaving room for a future extension up Forest St. then down Park St. and into 5 Points just beyond I95.
Second, I'd extend the operating hours to run the system from 5:30 AM to 2:30 AM, Monday-Friday. A consistent operation schedule is a definite plus for regular DT employees, residents, and nightlife.
Next, strike a deal with government employees to use the perifery garages at Kings Ave and Prime Osborne to park for free and ride the Skyway into the core.
Lastly, reroute the rubber wheeled trollys to connect those that work at the current courthouse (and other government office not within a couple blocks of the line) to Central & FCCJ Stations. The new Trolly route from 5 points to the Landing would remain intact. The Landing would then act as a transfer point for the newly re-routed Azealea and Magnolia lines that will better connect the sports district and LaVilla to the Skyway.
I think that would eat up all $30 million but would significantly enhance the system. If I could then drum up about another $50 mil and team up with a private developer or say Wayne Weaver, a new leg to the Sports district would be phase 2 of my operations.
if the city gave me the skyway, i have no clue where i would put it. i guess i could put a stop in my front yard, a stop in my back yard and a stop across the creek. ;)
1. Allow advertising on the cars. I would use this money to help market and improve certain elements of the system to attract new riders.
2. Use existing stations in dense areas for alternative uses. Art shows, food vendors, private parties, etc. Anything that might attract more people to the property.
3. Work with JTA to make sure the Skyway becomes an important part of their RTS system. I'd raise hell to keep the proposed BRT plans paralleling the skyway on the Southbank from happening. I'd even file a lawsuit, if I had to. Depending on the routes, I'd fight against streetcars as well. Not to say that these systems are bad, but I would want to make sure they complement the skyway.
4. Make stations locally themed destinations. The ground level of these things are wasted opportunities, imo. This is a city that has not cherished its rich history. My skyway stations would take advantage of this by becoming spaces that expose various elements of Jacksonville along the gates, walls and open areas. Sort of like a museum spreadout over several stations. This addition could pull in a small segment of the tourist in town and could be funded from train wrap advertising.
5. Extend line one mile east to Stadium District. Just serving the events at JMS, Metro Park, Kids Kampus, the Baseball Grounds and the arena would be a boost for ridership and TOD potential. The connection past the courthouse/city hall annex, entertainment district, Hyatt, JSO, the jail and Maxwell House would also attract additional everyday riders.
6. Extend across the tracks to terminate at Atlantic Blvd. in San Marco. This short extension ties the system and downtown in with one of the city's most vibrant urban retail and dining areas. To save on costs, I'd get the thing over the tracks as quick as possible and run the last couple of thousand feet at grade.
7. Also add a short extension to Forest Street, paralleling Riverside Avenue. Instead of building it in the sky, I'd probably elect to bring it to grade and trench it at certain spots (depending on costs).
8. To go along with my grand-reopening, I'd work with nearby employers and businesses along the line to offer some type of incentive program for people using the system. For example, if you use the skyway to get to the Gas Knob in the Stadium District or Subway in Hemming Plaza, after a while, you would get a free meal.
9. Seek public/private partnerships for expansion. Just because its given $30 million, does not mean it has to spent right a way. If there are situations where expansion would benefit private development, then those developers should share in the cost to expand the thing. I would work with developers to reduce their parking requirements and in turn, some of the money that would have been used on massive garages, could be used to improve the system and its connections with those developments.
Ok, I need to rewrite my plan to include:
Step 1: Appoint Lakelander as my personal consultant.
I really like the ideas of enhancing the stations. Making them mini destinations would be huge. I'd also suggest using the money from advertising to replace the fares and make the system free.
Quoteif the city gave me the skyway, i have no clue where i would put it. i guess i could put a stop in my front yard, a stop in my back yard and a stop across the creek.
Come on in, put on your consultants coat and try and figure this out... Your the new Skyway CEO, what do YOU do? OCKLAWAHA
JASON, did you mean from 5:30 AM to 2:30 AM or PM? The system is "fully automated" as far as the tech of 1980-2000 allowed, but it DOES have a Central Traffic Control (war room) with real live people watching and pushing the buttons.
OCKLAWAHA
Heh, yeah I meant AM to AM. Corrected!
Not to hijack the thread and get into too many nitty-gritty details, but I've always wondered:
If an extension to the Sports District were to be built, where would it run? Along which road? Originating from which existing station?
Central Station up Bay?
FCCJ Station down Union?
Central Station up Bay Street.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 01, 2008, 12:36:29 PM
Central Station up Bay Street.
Is that where that 'spur' pylon is?
If you could get the thing from San Marco to Five points it would qualify(to me) as a starter transit system. Connecting neighborhoods with major employers, shopping,dining and entertainment. The neighborhoods you are connecting are already the most pedestrian friendly we have. I would love to see a skyway cafe in San Marco. Lake's idea of Jacksonville themed mini museums at the stations is brilliant. The public private partnerships for expansion and advertising should be done.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRANSIT%20monorail%20and%20Skyway/BayHogan.jpg)
QuoteIs that where that 'spur' pylon is?
Sure is Doctor K, jump in and play with us. QuoteIf you could get the thing from San Marco to Five points it would qualify(to me) as a starter transit system. Connecting neighborhoods with major employers, shopping,dining and entertainment. The neighborhoods you are connecting are already the most pedestrian friendly we have. I would love to see a skyway cafe in San Marco. Lake's idea of Jacksonville themed mini museums at the stations is brilliant. The public private partnerships for expansion and advertising should be done.
Great idea, give us your details, how and where would you take it to? I agree Lakes idea is brilliant, we have both been preaching and teaching MULTI-USE for transit stations and his is a fine example of "HOW TO" for Jacksonville 101. The Plano line of the Dallas LRT system follows the old Texas Electric Interurban right of way, sometimes directly on the old route, sometimes on the old Southern Pacific route. The stations look rather "Skywayish" until one walks up to the pillars or looks at the walls and floors. Trolley rails! Murals galore, with markers. Lightning bolts, TEXAS ELECTRIC emblems, even two fully restored TE INTERURBAN cars, one in Plano and one in Ft. Worth - Amtrak (soon to have streetcar/and/or/LRT).
We never seem to think of carts, vendors, food stands, flowers, gifts, conductors, fare free, all sorts of systems to get folks to ride or visit. You are so right, I would ride the 5-Points - San Marco line, just tell me where I'll find YOUR stations. (http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Special%20Effects%20Images/lightningandTRACTION-1-1.jpg)
what was the reason given for not allowing advertising wraps during the Super Bowl?
Thanks for the verification Ock! Some other random, uneducated, stream-of-conscious thoughts:
1. It seems that that particular 'spur pylon,' with a track extended from it, would hit a building one block east down Bay Street (apologies - don't have access to maps or the name/address of that particular building!). Does a building with almost no setback from the street such as that present a huge, un-work-around-able obstacle towards running the Skyway down Bay Street?
2. Once past that, would we turn this theoretical SKyway extension up A. Phillip Randolph from East Bay, thus providing more-direct access to Maxwell House/Baseball Grounds/Arena? Or would it kind of dead-end at some point along Gator Bowl Blvd? Met Park/KidZone would make a phenomenal (theoretical) location for a station, should it go that way instead of up Randolph. Perfect access to Stadium and Met Park, but not so much for Baseball Grounds/Arena.
3. Would the Skyway look 'out of place' heading further down Park Street? For example, are there any tracts of appreciable 'historical fabric' buildings amongst which a SkyWay would look incongruous?
Quote from: Doctor_K on October 01, 2008, 01:33:40 PM
Thanks for the verification Ock! Some other random, uneducated, stream-of-conscious thoughts:
1. It seems that that particular 'spur pylon,' with a track extended from it, would hit a building one block east down Bay Street (apologies - don't have access to maps or the name/address of that particular building!). Does a building with almost no setback from the street such as that present a huge, un-work-around-able obstacle towards running the Skyway down Bay Street?
Existing buildings won't be a problem if the new line were built over the street, similar to the Hogan Street segment. I wasn't around when the first skyway segment was built, but were buildings lining Bay demolished for it? If so, that's a shame.
Quote2. Once past that, would we turn this theoretical SKyway extension up A. Phillip Randolph from East Bay, thus providing more-direct access to Maxwell House/Baseball Grounds/Arena? Or would it kind of dead-end at some point along Gator Bowl Blvd? Met Park/KidZone would make a phenomenal (theoretical) location for a station, should it go that way instead of up Randolph. Perfect access to Stadium and Met Park, but not so much for Baseball Grounds/Arena.
Ock probably feels different, but if I had it my way, I'd run it down to Metro Park. The arena and baseball park could be easily served by a station on the corner of Bay & Philip Randolph. That's a short distance away and a lot closer to the front entrances of those facilities than most of the surface parking lots serving them.
Quote3. Would the Skyway look 'out of place' heading further down Park Street? For example, are there any tracts of appreciable 'historical fabric' buildings amongst which a SkyWay would look incongruous?
I don't think I'd run it down Park Street (I assume you're talking about the heart of Five Points?). You'll face heavy opposition from the Riverside/Avondale community.
I would like to see stations directly integrated with buildings, to the point where someone exiting a skyway train would not necessarily have to descend to ground level in order to exit the station and access the building. Rather, they would use a different station exit leading directly to the second or third floor of the integrated building. They could likewise enter the station the same way. The DC Metro has several stations connecting directly to office or apartment buildings. I knew a woman who rode the Metro from her apartment in Crystal City to an office in L'Enfant Plaza and never once went outside.
Such a design could be implemented in the new Brooklyn development, a possible convention center at Bay & Market, or even the new development at the Jefferson station, although the latter would require modification of the existing station. To take this concept one step further, once a new convention center is operational and the Prime Osbourne is converted back to a transit hub, I would like to see its Skyway station moved to the south side of Bay and directly integrated with the station. One could exit an Amtrak or commuter train, walk across the lobby and up an escalator, and board a Skyway train bound for downtown. I realize, however, that this is an expensive proposition for moving a station a mere 200 feet.
QuoteThanks for the verification Ock! Some other random, uneducated, stream-of-conscious thoughts:
1. It seems that that particular 'spur pylon,' with a track extended from it, would hit a building one block east down Bay Street (apologies - don't have access to maps or the name/address of that particular building!). Does a building with almost no setback from the street such as that present a huge, un-work-around-able obstacle towards running the Skyway down Bay Street?
Shouldn't be a problem, as the Skyway can twist and turn it's way around obstscles just like it makes the turns onto Hogan or the Acosta. A slight reverse "S" curve would realign it to any needed degree on Bay. Quote2. Once past that, would we turn this theoretical SKyway extension up A. Phillip Randolph from East Bay, thus providing more-direct access to Maxwell House? Or would it kind of dead-end at some point along Gator Bowl Blvd? Met Park/KidZone would make a phenomenal (theoretical) location for a station, should it go that way instead of up Randolph. Perfect access to Stadium and Met Park, but not so much for Baseball Grounds/Arena.
This is a real conundrum. I'd like to see models of both run with the top notch systems at FDOT. I too have mixed feelings on this. Certainly the Stadium and parks are the larger attraction BUT... The Fairgrounds utilities building on the West Side of Randolph next to the Garage, would make for a fantastic SKYWAY-STREETCAR-BUS-PARK and RIDE location right off the Arlington Expressway. Perhaps a station at Bay and Randolph and another at the expressway Terminal would serve all venues? Quote3. Would the Skyway look 'out of place' heading further down Park Street? For example, are there any tracts of appreciable 'historical fabric' buildings amongst which a SkyWay would look incongruous?
Not at all, I know that Riverside has Right-of-way already included in it for the Skyway as far as I-95, which would leave Park or Myrtle open to streetcars. But hey, this is YOUR SKYWAY, you tell me!OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: thelakelander on October 01, 2008, 01:41:49 PM
Quote from: Doctor_K on October 01, 2008, 01:33:40 PM
3. Would the Skyway look 'out of place' heading further down Park Street? For example, are there any tracts of appreciable 'historical fabric' buildings amongst which a SkyWay would look incongruous?
I don't think I'd run it down Park Street (I assume you're talking about the heart of Five Points?). You'll face heavy opposition from the Riverside/Avondale community.
Humblest apologies. My geography is apparently not what it used to be. I wasn't thinking about 5 Points per se. Where the current maintenance shed is... Google Earth says its May Street.
Parallel it to Riverside or else run it down Riverside itself. That's where I meant originally: down Riverside/May to say, I-95, to serve the YMCA/St. Joe/Everbank Plaza/Fidelity/BC-BS? Once past I-95 in that direction it gets more heavily 'historical'-like, and *there*, IMO, it wouldn't be as congruous a fit.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 01, 2008, 01:48:09 PM
Not at all, I know that Riverside has Right-of-way already included in it for the Skyway as far as I-95, which would leave Park or Myrtle open to streetcars. But hey, this is YOUR SKYWAY, you tell me!
Fascinating. Was not aware of that. Good to know. I'm all over that then.
That "mystery building" that I'm thinking of is actually on the NE corner of Bay and Laura, right behind the SunTrust building and across from the BoA Tower.
But you said a reverse "S" curve could wind around that? How would that affect street and sidewalk traffic?
Other thoughts:
4. Drop a station at Liberty & Bay, on the NE corner of the Courthouse block to service Churchwell/Bay Street Entertainment Strip/Courthouse/Berkman 1 & 2/Jail (not the best way to promote or advertise, granted...). Since the new Courthouse is going up elsewhere, the old Courthouse site could be subject to adaptive reuse and would benefit from an existing station.
5. Another station in the midst of Maxwell House/Shipyards area. Would help Maxwell House Museum/Cafe idea that I know I've seen discussed elsewhere around here. This station would serve as its own split for an A. Phillip Randolph spur AND a Metro Park spur, should both be warranted.
6. Get the TV station out of that corner adjacent to the Baseball grounds and reconstruct/reconfigure as another parking garage/Skyway Station combo, a la King Street Station. All three venues right there would benefit from another garage structure anyway.
I Think you need to get it to the Publix in Five Points. Go under( sorry OCK.) 95 beside Annie Lytle though to the park down Margret to the backside of Al's pizza. You could make the lot behind Al's to the new five guys a pretty discrete parking Garage. You could not be at grade so it is full price.
QuoteThat "mystery building" that I'm thinking of is actually on the NE corner of Bay and Laura, right behind the SunTrust building and across from the BoA Tower.
But you said a reverse "S" curve could wind around that? How would that affect street and sidewalk traffic?
Here's a couple of images, looks like clear sailing even if it went straight ahead. Note the green property lines.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/SkywaycloseupHogan_Laura.png)
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/Skywaycloseup.png)
OCKLAWAHA
Yup, it would work. Besides, the Bay Street and Hogan legs both take up 1/2 of a lane of traffic already. The other half lane is used for parallel parking, and its shaded!
Wasn't it some claptrap about not wanting to "make ourselves look like cheap capitalists taking advantage..." I just remember it being class act STUPID.
The fact that the ENTIRE WORLD COULD HAVE SEEN a huge stadium with 8 car monorail trains running in and out of a 2nd deck level station on television, and we BLEW IT! What would that have done for the "I don't know where Jacksonville is coach..., image?" Imagine the chatter in Spanish, French, German, Russian, Chinese, Japanese and maybe 80 other languages around the globe as the cameras keep panning back to the scene of J - A - C - K - S - O - N - V - I - L - L - E and it''s futuristic transit system...
Reminds me of an incident behind the scenes of the filming of the Addams Family movie. The director told little Wednesday, "Put some personality into it, give us a smile at ....." The little actress walked away then spun around and stared down the director and said matter-of-factly, "LOOK, I'm Wednesday, and Wednesday DOESN"T HAVE A PERSONALITY!" case closed. Ditto Jacksonville, Ditto.
OCKLAWAHA
We definately blew the chance to create a legacy project from hosting the super bowl. That game was probably the best chance to take advantage of momentum to expand a line down to the stadium. Houston pulled it off a year before we did and now they have a very successful starter rail system spurring new development in the areas it serves.
I still remember the banners back in the day We're on our way to the Gator Bowl. So in fact the skyway would have been in placed even before we were awarded the Jags. Lake can u run for the planning and development dept. I'll vote 4 u. ;D
Lake needs to be the department head for planning and development. Is that an appointed position? Probably not. But they probably wouldn't want him anyways cuz he would make fools of the city leadership. lol
Quote from: Doctor_K on October 01, 2008, 01:51:44 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on October 01, 2008, 01:41:49 PM
Quote from: Doctor_K on October 01, 2008, 01:33:40 PM
3. Would the Skyway look 'out of place' heading further down Park Street? For example, are there any tracts of appreciable 'historical fabric' buildings amongst which a SkyWay would look incongruous?
I don't think I'd run it down Park Street (I assume you're talking about the heart of Five Points?). You'll face heavy opposition from the Riverside/Avondale community.
Humblest apologies. My geography is apparently not what it used to be. I wasn't thinking about 5 Points per se. Where the current maintenance shed is... Google Earth says its May Street.
Parallel it to Riverside or else run it down Riverside itself. That's where I meant originally: down Riverside/May to say, I-95, to serve the YMCA/St. Joe/Everbank Plaza/Fidelity/BC-BS? Once past I-95 in that direction it gets more heavily 'historical'-like, and *there*, IMO, it wouldn't be as congruous a fit.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 01, 2008, 01:48:09 PM
Not at all, I know that Riverside has Right-of-way already included in it for the Skyway as far as I-95, which would leave Park or Myrtle open to streetcars. But hey, this is YOUR SKYWAY, you tell me!
Fascinating. Was not aware of that. Good to know. I'm all over that then.
Man the BEST place to put the Riverside Skyway station is at the corner of Post and Park, across the street from the church in front of the pond!!! That is the best place to end the line, it won't bother any historic places, easy access to 5 points, Publix, Memorial Park, Entrance to North Bank Riverwalk. Look at that location when you drive by...it screams Skyway Station!!
I like the idea of going down Forest Street to Park Street.
Now if I owned the Skyway system, I would announce the expansion, but the people will vote on the legs priority. There would be 4 legs North/Springfield, West/Riverside, East/Sport Complex, South/San Marco/Philips Hwy. Everyone in the Duval-Jacksonville line can vote, the leg that receives the most votes gets built first, so we can pace ourselves on the building. There won't be a stupid "whether or not vote", but a "where" vote. I think the east line would get the most votes, followed by West, South & North. The system would be complete by 2030. The people that want to escape the madness will move closer to these areas. They will have about 20 stations to choose from.
Upgrade the fare system, get rid of the ShowBiz Pizza change machines!!!...bring in vendor boxes. People use their debit and credit cards now. No one walks with quarters!! Options: 1 way card, round trip card, Unlimited Day card, Unlimited Week card, Unlimited Month card. All cards in a machine that takes coins, bills, debit & credit. Use the card to access the train island.
Very important that Greyhound and JTA move to Union Station...Give/Sell the old JTA/Rosa Parks land to FCCJ. Destroy the greyhound building!! Bring in mix use buildings Condos, Hotel, Apartments, Shops, Bars. That Greyhound land is so important, the city needs to get them over to the Union station like they plan.
Now that that is out of the way,
Going East: First keep going straight down Bay, Station at Bay & Laura, Station at Bay & Liberty, Station at Phillip Randolf, Bay & Gatorbowl. put that station right under the overpass. Build that station as a mega station, because it is going to get lots of riders. The back and forth system at the other terminals will NOT work here. Build the station in a circler shape, that way 3 trains (per other legs) can come back to back and leave back to back. Example. North train drops, loops around picks up riders, West train drops, loops around picks up riders, South train drops, loops around picks up riders. Exits and entrance will not happen at the same place like the other stations, it will be too much traffic. I hope I am describing the design properly. :D 3 Stations total.Going West: Easy, Station at Brooklyn, Station at Riverside Ave & Forest, Station at Forest & Park Street, Terminal at Park and Post. Don't put a Station near the Cummer or Memorial Park, the Park & Post location would be just fine without bothering any historic folks. Its a 2 minute walk at the most. 4 Stations total.Going South: I don't know that area well, so I won't be loud and wrong. 3-4 total stations maybe? Terminate at Jackson Square or San Marco Square? Some one give me some advice on the south leg. :-[
Going North: Rosa Parks Station will be apart of FCCJ campus. Take the train either up Pearl or Main and terminate at 8th Street. Where is Klutho Park exactly? There is some empty land in the Springfield area. More Mix use developments there. 4 Stations total
Thats my changes. I did the west & east in detail, I am very familiar with those locations.
8 Stations now, 22 total stations when complete. You'd have to be a moron of a developer not to get a piece of that action!!! lol
If you see any corrections or changes that need to be made please post.
Lake your a frigging "
G"enius
Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 01, 2008, 06:49:29 PM
Wasn't it some claptrap about not wanting to "make ourselves look like cheap capitalists taking advantage..." I just remember it being class act STUPID.
The fact that the ENTIRE WORLD COULD HAVE SEEN a huge stadium with 8 car monorail trains running in and out of a 2nd deck level station on television, and we BLEW IT! What would that have done for the "I don't know where Jacksonville is coach..., image?" Imagine the chatter in Spanish, French, German, Russian, Chinese, Japanese and maybe 80 other languages around the globe as the cameras keep panning back to the scene of J - A - C - K - S - O - N - V - I - L - L - E and it''s futuristic transit system...
Reminds me of an incident behind the scenes of the filming of the Addams Family movie. The director told little Wednesday, "Put some personality into it, give us a smile at ....." The little actress walked away then spun around and stared down the director and said matter-of-factly, "LOOK, I'm Wednesday, and Wednesday DOESN"T HAVE A PERSONALITY!" case closed. Ditto Jacksonville, Ditto.
OCKLAWAHA
I honestly believe the SB will be back Ock. One thing that Jax has going in it is in the south! Detroit should never get one as well as Chicago and New York. The down south owners have weather on their side. I think New Orleans should get another one, just for sympathy reasons.
Miami - 9
New Orleans - 9
Los Angeles - 7
Tampa Bay - 3
San Diego - 3
Houston - 2
Detroit - 2
Atlanta - 2
Phoenix - 2
San Francisco- 1
Minneapolis- 1
Jacksonville- 1
Future Super Bowl host cities
2009 - Tampa Bay (4)
2010 - Miami (10)
2011 - Dallas (1)
2012 - Indianapolis (1)
The league is set til 2012.
Indianapolis doesn't need to get one they have the Indy 500. LA is off the map "right now"
Both Bob McNair(Hou) & Arthur Blank(Atl) are trying to eat!!! Seriously! Mr Weaver needs to snatch up a chair at the table. So lets say 6 -7 seasons...JTA, COJ, need to get started on something. Jacksonville could easily get one if the 2015, 2016, 2017 SBs!....damn this is its own thread.
(http://www.freewebs.com/lightrailjacksonville/downtownjax0476xd%20SKYWAY%20HEMMING%20STATION.jpg)
So where to now St. Peter
If it's true I'm in your hands
I may not be a Christian
But I've done all one skyway can
I understand I'm on the road
Where all that was is gone
So where to now St. Peter
Show me which road I'm on
Which road I'm on
I'm with you on that brother. It will return and sooner then most yahoos think. For location and weather, we rock!
Your Skyway Plan is very interesting. I found the move to Main quite a departure from most concepts. I wonder if a similar idea for running up past the new Courthouse, then perhaps to Davis and North to Shands would fly?
I think by everyones logic, Newnan is probbably going to be the crossing of the Streetcar route. A station there would serve Hyatt Regency and double as a transfer point.
Down Southside only two stations need be built to get it to Atlantic Blvd. in San Marco. Since this is alongside the FEC (future Commuter Rail) tracks there wouldn't be a need to continue on to Jackson Square. Just transfer to the local commute train. Since Jackson Square and Atlantic are close together, split the trains into 3 groups... Red trains stop at Jackson Square but not Atlantic, Blue trains stop at Atlantic but not Jackson Square, and Yellow Local Trains make all stops.
The thoughts expressed about running into the Stadium rather then up Randolph are also interesting, I wonder if a model would show both lines viable? We are talking in terms of 1/10 or 2/10ths of a mile, so it shouldn't be hard to build BOTH. One (Randolph) would see heavy weekday, baseball and Arena use, the other, daily park, PBS and occasional stadium megga-use.
Come on all you sidewalk critics, put your fingers on the keyboard and tell me what YOU WOULD DO. I note our super consertative critics VERY quiet. Take me to meet your sound people.
OCKLAWAHA
from CIVILQuoteThe people mover, I refuse to use the term skyway, we both know the original name, hmmmmmmmm!!!! I'm going to be nice and say my vision includes a large quantity of high explovses and a huge block party afterwards, thats being nice.
(http://railfanning.org/graphics/jacksonville_6899a.jpg)
OCKS PLANNING SESSION:
One toke over the line, sweet Jesus
One toke over the line
Sitting downtown
In a railway station
One toke over the line
Waiting for the train
That goes home, sweet Mary
Hoping that the train is on time
Sitting downtown
In a railway station
One toke over the lineYeah, Civil, I know, I felt the same way about Horizontal Elevator we call the Skyway for many years. I'm so frustrated that it stopped us for consideration of Light Rail back when we would have been Portland or San Diego! But Jake knew all.... Sorry Boss Hogg, but you blew this one!
My feelings have changed only because we are into this giant THING for so many millions and still have made
no effort to make it viable. There are ideas out there that would do wonders just with what we have. Stuff like lease space in stations, kiosks, Lakes Museum and Mural ideas, and building direct walks and stations. Another possible use would be a few Skywalks that could connect certain stations with hotels or office towers without traffic or weather trouble. My talks with various industry experts have convinced me we don't know how to shop for a monorail. Almost everyone I have spoken to, is stunned at what we have paid per mile. It appears that it could be expanded (again I'd just move it about in the core to connect the dots) for somewhere around 15Mil a mile. Light Rail would fall in the same price area, streetcars less, commuter rail much less, and BRT about DOUBLE that number for Quickway BRT, the other form Light-Rail-Lite wouldn't be much of a step above what we have with buses and would still cost about what streetcar would. So put in prospective, this change of management (For the sake of this thread = YOU CIVIL) have an creative thinking assignment. Wanna give it a try? So far none of our Conservatives have wanted to play and put any thought into the dilemma, I really think we need to hear from both sides of the aisle. I'd love to Hear from ALL OF YOU!OCKLAWAHA
How about run strait from the Brooklyn platform stop underneath 95 to serve Fidelity, BCBS, Everbank, Red Cross, the artist pavilion, and the Cummer. Then on to memorial park to serve the publix, Presbyterian retiement home and all of 5 points.
To get the riverside avondale protection society to sign off we make the cars that run from central station to memorial park faux trolley or some heritage line. Is that doable Ock.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 03, 2008, 12:34:00 AM
There are ideas out there that would do wonders just with what we have. Stuff like lease space in stations, kiosks, Lakes Museum and Mural ideas, and building direct walks and stations. Another possible use would be a few Skywalks that could connect certain stations with hotels or office towers without traffic or weather trouble.
Thats a cool idea! An Omni Hotel - Central Station walkway could be built, a Rosa Park - FCCJ walkway could go over State Street & a walkway could also connect San Marco Station to Friendship Park.
Quote from: JeffreyS on October 04, 2008, 12:10:35 AM
How about run strait from the Brooklyn platform stop underneath 95 to serve Fidelity, BCBS, Everbank, Red Cross, the artist pavilion, and the Cummer. Then on to memorial park to serve the publix, Presbyterian retiement home and all of 5 points.
To get the riverside avondale protection society to sign off we make the cars that run from central station to memorial park faux trolley or some heritage line. Is that doable Ock.
I was thinking that too, but once you get pass Riverside Ave & Lomax it is a lot of trees that shade those areas leading up to Memorial Park, I don't think those business want to lose that shade. Which is why I mention going up Forest then heading SW on Park Street. Do you see what I mean?
QuoteQuoteHow about run strait from the Brooklyn platform stop underneath 95 to serve Fidelity, BCBS, Everbank, Red Cross, the artist pavilion, and the Cummer. Then on to memorial park to serve the publix, Presbyterian retiement home and all of 5 points.
To get the riverside avondale protection society to sign off we make the cars that run from central station to memorial park faux trolley or some heritage line. Is that doable Ock.
I was thinking that too, but once you get pass Riverside Ave & Lomax it is a lot of trees that shade those areas leading up to Memorial Park, I don't think those business want to lose that shade. Which is why I mention going up Forest then heading SW on Park Street. Do you see what I mean?
This is a real question. Don't know if Oak or May could be used to get close to 5-Points. Seems like one of them is mostly faceless commercial, which might work. Otherwise, Francis Lytle PS4 would make a cool multi-use station with some kind of grand walk into 5 points from the front door across the park. Anybody got images? Can we figure this out? OCKLAWAHA
QuoteTo get the riverside avondale protection society to sign off we make the cars that run from central station to memorial park faux trolley or some heritage line. Is that doable Ock.
Not really doable unless you rebuilt the whole thing as some sort of steel wheel on steel rail vehicle, and frankly the Skyway isn't really good for that. OCKLAWAHA
Ok I say take the thirty million and surround the SkyWay with all the streetcar track you can.
The latest OCKLA-DOODLE on the SKYWAY!
Northwest corner of Atlantic and the FEC railroad in San Marco.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/SANMARCOATLANTICSTATION.gif)
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Special%20Effects%20Images/lightningandTRACTION-1-1.jpg)
So on firstcoastnews tonight, there was a recommendation from JSO that people park at Kings Avenue and take the Skyway to the Landing. (This was in reference to attending the Palin event tomorrow.)
First thought was, "what a great idea!" Then I realized how much irony surrounds this recommendation. The citizens of Jacksonville don't know how to use public transit and chances are, most won't use the Skyway without knowing how. So the problem is that we can't somehow say to use something that is not ingrained in our everyday lives. How ironical that the city begs us to use public transit as a way to help traffic and ease morning congestion for a big event. Yet we spend the other 364 days of the year building more roads and freeways and spending nothing on mass transit infrastructure.
We need the Skyway to be extended (I vote for the east-stadium extension first) so that it will have more purpose, and the people of Jacksonville will slowly begin to learn the benefits of using mass transit without the hassle of traffic. I guarantee if you offered the fans still trying to leave the stadium lots at 1:15am last night a free trip above traffic to their cars on the Southbank, 90% would've said "Yes, I'm in!" Then when we have big events like political rallies, we can say, the fastest and easiest way will be to ride the Skyway into downtown and people will think "perfect, just like we do for the JAGS games," or "like we did for the Chesney concert at the Arena." Plus the business woman who works in the Modis tower, who always uses the Skyway to get to work, will not have to worry about being late! Perhaps with enough practice and use, we won't even have to beg on local TV. People will already know that you'd be stupid to try to get downtown by means other than the Skyway. Let's get this extension started already! What are we waiting for?
I love the prospect of extending the Skyway to the Stadium - more specifically the Sports Complex, but what's the frequency/capacity? For instance, if say, 2,000 people park at the King Street Garage/Station, how efficiently could they be transported to their vehicles assuming that they all queued up at the same time after an event? Would it work? Could it work? Can cars be added? It's also intriguing to think about the Skyway terminating "into" the stadium as I've read before, but is that a viable option considering that there are really no events to speak of at that location several months a year? Would they simply not run that leg there during lean months? Also, I wish that it Really went to the Landing & down Bay.........(sigh)
I remember Ock saying they could add cars for special events as needed.
I'm guessing it's easy to not run a leg when it's not needed, but I'm sure it would be quite costly to have the line terminate into the stadium (or just run through it) since the stadium hasn't been designed for that. And building the track to do that only to not use it most of the year wouldn't be a great idea either.
Quote from: blizz01 on October 06, 2008, 08:33:06 PM
I love the prospect of extending the Skyway to the Stadium - more specifically the Sports Complex, but what's the frequency/capacity? For instance, if say, 2,000 people park at the King Street Garage/Station, how efficiently could they be transported to their vehicles assuming that they all queued up at the same time after an event? Would it work? Could it work? Can cars be added? It's also intriguing to think about the Skyway terminating "into" the stadium as I've read before, but is that a viable option considering that there are really no events to speak of at that location several months a year? Would they simply not run that leg there during lean months? Also, I wish that it Really went to the Landing & down Bay.........(sigh)
Current capacity with our equipment (remember we own the rights to the center cars but have never ordered them) as-is will be 3,000 passengers-per-hour-per-directions PPHPD.
The design according to Bombardier Transportation is 33,000 PPHPD with max equipment - top of the line.
33,000 IF this is true is THE magic number for most fixed transit, so there is nothing wrong with the design, it's just not set up to "show off" as it's currently running. However it is built to do the job.
I'm working on another doodle for the stadium area.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: blizz01 on October 06, 2008, 08:33:06 PM
I love the prospect of extending the Skyway to the Stadium - more specifically the Sports Complex, but what's the frequency/capacity? For instance, if say, 2,000 people park at the King Street Garage/Station, how efficiently could they be transported to their vehicles assuming that they all queued up at the same time after an event? Would it work? Could it work? Can cars be added? It's also intriguing to think about the Skyway terminating "into" the stadium as I've read before, but is that a viable option considering that there are really no events to speak of at that location several months a year? Would they simply not run that leg there during lean months? Also, I wish that it Really went to the Landing & down Bay.........(sigh)
Well I don't think running it into the stadium is a good idea, but it does NEED to terminate in the area thats fair to the other venues. As far as no events for several months, the same could be said for Union Station & Kings Avenue Station. If/When the economy gets better, more concerts will return to JaxVet, many concerts at Metro Park, Suns baseball, The J.A.Fair, easy access to Kid Kampus (moms will love that). The Sports Complex Station would be fine year round.
NOW about the Landing....right now the station that serves the Landing is Central Station. If there was a station at Bay & Laura that would serve The Jacksonville Landing perfect!!! Its doesn't need to be a station at the Landing. Water Street is the next block...Its right there. They could even build a catwalk for Laura and Bay that connects to the Landings 2nd floor. Easy!
As for when they will get started on doing what NEEDS to be done. Hey its Jacksonville.........
Okay gang, hope you can figure this one out. It's the latest doodle on the Sports District Multi-Modal Station.
It sits on Fairgrounds Property in the NE corner of Duval and Randolph and runs through to Beaver. Long and rather narrow. Skyway is above the bus floor, streetcar is alongside the buses down below. The whole thing should match the Arena and Garage and have an overpass from Skyway deck to Garage. On weekdays all that parking at the foot of those bridges could be turned into CASH as the downtown garages could go private and join the tax rolls.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/StadiumSkyway-Bus-StreetcarStati-1.jpg)
What do you think?
OCKLAWAHA
I think it is a great plan Ock! A massive station at that corner would be well utilized and do much for connectivity. Would it work to take the skyway around the east side of the baseball park along N Georgia street instead of A Philip Randolph and then horseshoe it into a "fairgrounds" station? I only say this because a skyway stop at the corner of Georgia and Bay would better serve the Stadium, Metro Park and Kids Kampus. A station there is another block east than one at Randolph and Bay. If the picture in my mind is correct, there is more space at this corner for building a station as well. Just a thought :)
It needs to be closer to metro park.
I agree with the last few posts. If its going to go into that area, it's better to get it closer to Metro Park, JMS and Kids Kampus instead of running it over APR Blvd. Running it directly east of the baseball park puts you within a block of the front entrances of the arena and ballpark. It also would not become a visual negative for JHS's property.
Funny thing is, I generally agree too. Trouble is, current freeway ramps leading in and out pretty much lock us out of points east for commuter uses. The idea of a loop is something else I have kicked around, in my mind, it would run Bay to the West side of Metropolitan Stadium, with a station at the stadium, also a slight return to APR corner.
The Randolph - Georgia - Franklin? Corners are important as a Streetcar could loop Beaver and Duval. So lets work out the puzzle? More feedback, anyone else got crayons? Lakelander?
OCKLAWAHA
So can the Skyway go down bay street or will it have to turn off bay and go up say market and then over the bridge on Duval? If we did that, then you could do a loop that included the arena, stadium, metro park, and the baseball park and then come back over the bridge on duval. That actually might work and would prevent a dead end. Am I clear in my idea or did I just confuse you?
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/StadiumDistrictStations.png)
Hows this look? The hidden bene of this plan is not only a station at the parks and stadium, but a 5 way auto access point. Elevated Skyway and ELEVATED STREETCAR coming over Haines Street alongside the highway grade elevations on the Arlington Expressway loop - then crossing Haines. Entering the station from the west on Second Floor Level, the Skyway on 3Rd Floor, and buses on the Ground, everything else is parking and some small retail and food services + security.
Commuters using the two bridges or coming down the MLK could swing into the garage and ride into town. Sporting venues of any type are covered.
Moreover, the new Matthews bridge may have LRT built in, if so, this second floor Streetcar line, would set the stage for an Eastbound Exit that could go over to Arlington in the Future. Also with the Skyway on level 3, it is NOT boxed in either, and might someday feed a major hotel or high rise north of the freeway or into Talleyrand district itself.
AGAIN, LET ME HEAR YOU?!?!?!
OCKLAWAHA
Brainstormer, I think the loop idea would work well also. The traffic flow could be reversed on the loop part depending on where the various stadium/park/arena stations were and if traffic was INBOUND or OUTBOUND. It might make empting the stadiums easier - if each station had two boarding tracks + a center platform, but they could go back to single track - SIGNALED - at the end of the platforms.
(http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/ets/train/ets_1026cab.jpg)
Modern Streetcar or LRV
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/114/287633650_c4c0527d6f.jpg?v=0)
Large size Monorail Train
We need the signals as we now have them installed, because as the system comes to life and expands there is no telling when the trains may grow to a manned train size - or in the event of a need for sudden manual operation from cab cars in the event of computer failures. Currently such failures kill the system, but it doesn't matter much as ridership is so low. IF this thing was as we envision it, we would HAVE TO BACK IT UP with motormen, perhaps cross trained Streetcar Operators.
OCKLAWAHA
Ock I love the new diagram.
Lets make that multi-modal station a tall building with offices. condos and a SkyWay cafe.
Ohhhh, man. Skyway Cafe. That is awesome. When I can, I'll open it someday. But hopefully I'll be too late.
Quote from: JeffreyS on October 08, 2008, 12:19:52 AM
Lets make that multi-modal station a tall building with offices. condos and a SkyWay cafe.
The one benefit (besides a one of a kind TV-Camera shot on nationwide) is that the Skyway stadium station could be closed except for games and such. Otherwise the cars would roll right through. Their could also be an "on call" button for people with business in the stadium between games, such a station would need to have tight security within, and a security office/guard off hours.
The big terminal at the end of both streetcar and Skyway would operate 365/20/7.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: thelakelander on October 07, 2008, 08:54:23 PM
I agree with the last few posts. If its going to go into that area, it's better to get it closer to Metro Park, JMS and Kids Kampus instead of running it over APR Blvd. Running it directly east of the baseball park puts you within a block of the front entrances of the arena and ballpark. It also would not become a visual negative for JHS's property.
Yea I was kinda thinking along those lines. As some stated the Georgia Gatorbowl corner would be a great location for the Sports Complex station. Sometimes JHS looks like it is apart of the ballpark. It would be cool if they actually connected the two together or build that Negro League museum Ock talks about as the connection building...all you need a few red bricks lol.
Lake you are saying put the Station between the ballpark and the stadium in the parking lot right?
Personally, I think a large station on the fairgrounds land would better serve the sports complex as a whole. It seems more centralized and with the parking ramp there already and quick access to Arlington Expressway, seems like a better option. I think the skyway would attract more riders if it had a stop right by the arena and baseball park. Figure out a way to put a station stop close to Metro Park, but I don't think we need the skyway to go to the east side of the football stadium. Maybe the streetcar line can better serve the east side. I liked your first diagram with perhaps a change to Georgia street instead of Randolph.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 07, 2008, 11:45:29 PM
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/StadiumDistrictStations.png)
4 Stations for the Sports Complex Ock?? LOL thats a lot man. The lot between the stadium & ballpark is perfect!!!! I think that is where the old coliseum used to be?? I could see the "Skyway Cafe" Restaurant there!!! A long with a Jacksonville Sports Museum.....Man that would be bad ass OCK what you think? 1 station at that location with a restaurant & museum apart of it!!!
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRANSIT%20monorail%20and%20Skyway/IndyMonorailSStation.jpg)
Here's the key. Neither of my plans counts on sports or concerts to keep it running. My planning will always include the commuter. The quicker we can get them to the edge of the metro, be it downtown, or Gate Parkway, and load them in mass transit, the better.
If at the same time, we can get them to use the bus, BRT, streetcar, Commuter Rail, or Skyway in some combination, then we are better off and will remove cars from the streets. A dollar spent on the SKYWAY to enlarge it to be included in a transit-NETWORK, is a dollar we won't be spending on lanes.
The TIMES-UNION is clueless and ran with another hack piece on this sick little 1/2 system. Like trying to sail on 1/2 of the QEII, you might save money by building half a ship, but it's only going in one direction... DOWN!
They seem to think the status quo will eventully work as long as we just wait it out. YEAH RIGHT, My thinking says they might be right - perhaps the next ice age. Until then we better fix it or remove it, and a fix is worlds better, since very little enlargment is needed for it to make sense. QuoteSKYWAY RIDERSHIP
Fewer people have been using the Skyway:
There were about 70,000 passengers in January 2007.
By the time fares increased from 35 cents to 50 cents that October, ridership was down to 45,000.
Since January, it has averaged just 40,000.
Source: The Florida Times-Union
Last modified 8/5/2008 - 3:11 pm
Originally created 080608
Skyway: Proceed carefully
By The Times-Union
Did you hear that a local Rotary Club started meeting in the Skyway?
The club needed to go somewhere with a lot of empty seats. Ba boom.
That's one of many jokes about the elevated rail cars that run downtown, carrying only a fraction of the passengers first envisioned.
And, with ridership dropping, the jokes aren't likely to subside.
Not that the Jacksonville Transportation Authority is laughing. To the contrary, the JTA insists the Skyway still has potential.
First, JTA spokesman Mike Miller points out, some unforeseen circumstances hurt ridership - a bank pulled its offices out of downtown and more parking garages were built.
Then, fares went from 35 cents to 50 cents, and that hurt ridership.
But was that such a bad thing? Fares generated more revenue.
Despite less ridership, higher fares cut the losses - which even now run about $4 million a year.
What's harder to justify is the JTA's interest in expanding the route. There was talk of extending it to the football stadium.
That sounds nice, but the cost is difficult to justify for a handful of events each year.
Now, the JTA is taking a look at a Skyway extension down Riverside Avenue.
Why? A lot of housing and condos are being planned in the Brooklyn area.
Steven Arrington, JTA director of resource development, stresses that nothing is imminent, however, adding that "because of the real estate slump, it may be a while" before any decisions would be made.
Good. Go slow.
A bus "trolley" already serves that route - and the JTA is considering a real trolley system (streetcars on rails, powered by overhead electricity) that take Brooklyn residents downtown.
Miller insists the last Skyway extension - across the river - may yet work out.
Apartments and condos are being planned on the Northbank, he says.
"When they are done, you'll see a dramatic increase in Skyway ridership."
Let's hope so. Like it or not, we have the Skyway.
It's good that the JTA keeps looking for a way to make it work, painstakingly examining one option after another almost like working a jigsaw puzzle.
But there isn't a lot in the Skyway's history to inspire confidence.
Be very careful before spending a lot of money to extend the line.
Two wrongs don't make a right. They make two wrongs.
Well JTA and City Hall can rejoyce, looks like I've done gone and PISSED OFF THE TIMES-UNION too now. The author of the above story called and interviewed me twice, and got a copy of all my articles + a map showing how we could extend it. I spotted the HACK JOB right away and he got NOTHING for ammo from me. I called Mike Miller and gave him a heads up too. This kind of crap reporting needs to stop. We need to get behind JTA when they have something right, and expansion, be it ever so small, IS RIGHT! To make a long story short, I got cut out of the article - (gee what a pisser! LOL!)
Two wrongs? Like what? Look at history for the answer. 1/2 of a Florida East Coast Railroad, Miami today is a tiny village, and Melbourne is a city of 5 million! HUH? Yeah. Put another way, had Robert E. Lee not played like a TIMES UNION WRITER and sent in Longstreet's corps to back Picketts charge at Gettysburg, we'd all be singing the "Bonnie Blue Flag" before our football games... (damn the luck), but a 1/2 a charge doesn't a victory make. If you only filled 1/2 the life boats on the Titanic, history would call you irresponsible, even STUPID because ... oh wait, that's what they did! And so we have a 1/2 of a transit system. True, I, aka: OCKLAWAHA, would have never built it, as I think rail - STREETCAR fit us better and would have taken us farther. Today we might be extending to Orange Park at Blanding, or Jacksonville Beach, rather then a crippled Skyway with ZERO support from our leadership. But we didn't build the streetcars, we have the Skyway, and I'll be damned if I plan to let this city ignore it forever! Care to join me? (http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Special%20Effects%20Images/lightningandTRACTION-1-1.jpg)
Well if you put shops, restaurants and clubs in that area which is under utilized anyway, then yo dont worry about a half few events. Also why not think about planning more events in the off season off football, baseball etc all the land just sits there empty, when it could be a very vibrant areas. A train station also gives you access to metro park which hold many events. OCK I like your diagram.
Mike is right that the north bank developements could be a catalyst to justify the skyway fot to people who haven't paid much attention.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/SkywayThailand.jpg)
Does this count? It's a 1/10th the cost of ours in US $$, but I almost forgot - 3Rd WORLD, We don't want to go there?! LOL!Quote4 Stations for the Sports Complex Ock?? LOL thats a lot man. The lot between the stadium & ballpark is perfect!!!! I think that is where the old coliseum used to be?? I could see the "Skyway Cafe" Restaurant there!!! A long with a Jacksonville Sports Museum.....Man that would be bad ass OCK what you think? 1 station at that location with a restaurant & museum apart of it!!!
It IS a perfect location my friend, except for one thing - It would duplicate the mistake on the Southbank of making a commuter lot so darn hard to get to, people would just jet on downtown. We MUST build at key intersections where we can capture those CHOICE RIDERS! (riders that would otherwise drive the whole distance). Once exposed to our Skyway or Streetcar, or Commuter Rail transit, we then can win them over to our BRT and Bus feeders.
Keep coming with the ideas troops, this WILL BE SHARED WITH JTA and the City. OCKLAWAHA
Ock, I don't think anyone will chose to drive into the outskirts of the core and ride the skyway in the rest of the way as long as parking is so plentiful. The key is to catch these riders in the burbs where all the traffic is and funnel them in on commuter trains. IMO, satellite parking garages won't live up to their potential until parking is scarce and the traffic downtown resembles the 1950's.
I agree. The skyway won't meet its true potential until there is a regional transit system in place to feed it with a steady stream of riders.
QuoteQuoteJason
Ock, I don't think anyone will chose to drive into the outskirts of the core and ride the skyway in the rest of the way as long as parking is so plentiful. The key is to catch these riders in the burbs where all the traffic is and funnel them in on commuter trains. IMO, satellite parking garages won't live up to their potential until parking is scarce and the traffic downtown resembles the 1950's.
thelakelander
I agree. The skyway won't meet its true potential until there is a regional transit system in place to feed it with a steady stream of riders.
OUCH! Say fella's remember the BIG PICTURE that this started with? I'll repeat for those that missed my rant:
PARKING 101 - OCKLA-THOUGHT
All street curbside parking goes FREE, with hourly, 1/2 hour, 4 hour etc... control from Parking Enforcement which would be a division of JTA.
All City Center Garages would be sold to private investors for "WHATEVER" use. They would be required to open the retail (where the design has it built in), and they would pay a PER SPACE occupied tax which would be equal to the former meter revenue. Thus NO LOSS.
All new municipal garages would be - satellite parking garages-operated by JTA and a new law REQUIRES them to be transit centers.
Now your one of 20,000 pouring over the new Matthews Bridge, you can go on and pay "double the old rate" or you can ride. FREEDOM MAN, It's a beautiful thing...OCKLAWAHA
I would add a bar car.
Sorry Ock, you already had it covered! :)
Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 09, 2008, 12:11:57 AM
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRANSIT%20monorail%20and%20Skyway/IndyMonorailSStation.jpg)
Here's the key. Neither of my plans counts on sports or concerts to keep it running. My planning will always include the commuter. The quicker we can get them to the edge of the metro, be it downtown, or Gate Parkway, and load them in mass transit, the better.
If at the same time, we can get them to use the bus, BRT, streetcar, Commuter Rail, or Skyway in some combination, then we are better off and will remove cars from the streets. A dollar spent on the SKYWAY to enlarge it to be included in a transit-NETWORK, is a dollar we won't be spending on lanes.
The TIMES-UNION is clueless and ran with another hack piece on this sick little 1/2 system. Like trying to sail on 1/2 of the QEII, you might save money by building half a ship, but it's only going in one direction... DOWN!
They seem to think the status quo will eventully work as long as we just wait it out. YEAH RIGHT, My thinking says they might be right - perhaps the next ice age. Until then we better fix it or remove it, and a fix is worlds better, since very little enlargment is needed for it to make sense.
QuoteSKYWAY RIDERSHIP
Fewer people have been using the Skyway:
There were about 70,000 passengers in January 2007.
By the time fares increased from 35 cents to 50 cents that October, ridership was down to 45,000.
Since January, it has averaged just 40,000.
Source: The Florida Times-Union
Last modified 8/5/2008 - 3:11 pm
Originally created 080608
Skyway: Proceed carefully
By The Times-Union
Did you hear that a local Rotary Club started meeting in the Skyway?
The club needed to go somewhere with a lot of empty seats. Ba boom.
That's one of many jokes about the elevated rail cars that run downtown, carrying only a fraction of the passengers first envisioned.
And, with ridership dropping, the jokes aren't likely to subside.
Not that the Jacksonville Transportation Authority is laughing. To the contrary, the JTA insists the Skyway still has potential.
First, JTA spokesman Mike Miller points out, some unforeseen circumstances hurt ridership - a bank pulled its offices out of downtown and more parking garages were built.
Then, fares went from 35 cents to 50 cents, and that hurt ridership.
But was that such a bad thing? Fares generated more revenue.
Despite less ridership, higher fares cut the losses - which even now run about $4 million a year.
What's harder to justify is the JTA's interest in expanding the route. There was talk of extending it to the football stadium.
That sounds nice, but the cost is difficult to justify for a handful of events each year.
Now, the JTA is taking a look at a Skyway extension down Riverside Avenue.
Why? A lot of housing and condos are being planned in the Brooklyn area.
Steven Arrington, JTA director of resource development, stresses that nothing is imminent, however, adding that "because of the real estate slump, it may be a while" before any decisions would be made.
Good. Go slow.
A bus "trolley" already serves that route - and the JTA is considering a real trolley system (streetcars on rails, powered by overhead electricity) that take Brooklyn residents downtown.
Miller insists the last Skyway extension - across the river - may yet work out.
Apartments and condos are being planned on the Northbank, he says.
"When they are done, you'll see a dramatic increase in Skyway ridership."
Let's hope so. Like it or not, we have the Skyway.
It's good that the JTA keeps looking for a way to make it work, painstakingly examining one option after another almost like working a jigsaw puzzle.
But there isn't a lot in the Skyway's history to inspire confidence.
Be very careful before spending a lot of money to extend the line.
Two wrongs don't make a right. They make two wrongs.
Well JTA and City Hall can rejoyce, looks like I've done gone and PISSED OFF THE TIMES-UNION too now. The author of the above story called and interviewed me twice, and got a copy of all my articles + a map showing how we could extend it. I spotted the HACK JOB right away and he got NOTHING for ammo from me. I called Mike Miller and gave him a heads up too. This kind of crap reporting needs to stop. We need to get behind JTA when they have something right, and expansion, be it ever so small, IS RIGHT! To make a long story short, I got cut out of the article - (gee what a pisser! LOL!)
MANNNN!!! Well reading this T-U article I keep saying to myself "this guy is taking shots at MJ.com" "He is trying say the ideas of the MJ.com members don't get it" Then BAM!!! Ock says the guy interviewed him. WOW!!! You guys keep pushing down there lol, I love it!!
This article was written to make people feel wrong for wanting the Skyway system to work. The turtles want the skyway dead. Backwards.
QuoteI would add a bar car.
Did you know it IS POSSIBLE? true. In fact the bar cars of the Metro North lines of NYC are said to have sealed more big $$ deals then any other spot on earth! TRUE! We could use some of that creative thought, trouble is the Skyway is to short for anything but a shot of REBEL YELL or SOCO... But maybe a small vendor bar at some stations would work. Meanwhile there is always commuter rail, which is what Metro-North is, so why not a FIRST CLASS LOUNGE to St. Augustine? Green Cove Springs? Yulee? Macclenny? Gainesville? (okay, maybe not Gainesville...HIC!).OCKLAWAHA
QuoteQuoteThen, fares went from 35 cents to 50 cents, and that hurt ridership.
But was that such a bad thing? Fares generated more revenue.
Despite less ridership, higher fares cut the losses - which even now run about $4 million a year.
MANNNN!!! Well reading this T-U article I keep saying to myself "this guy is taking shots at MJ.com" "He is trying say the ideas of the MJ.com members don't get it" Then BAM!!! Ock says the guy interviewed him. WOW!!! You guys keep pushing down there lol, I love it!!
This article was written to make people feel wrong for wanting the Skyway system to work. The turtles want the skyway dead. Backwards.
You got that right my friend, this guy is a turtle in his own class. What kind of twisted logic celebrates cutting the loss at a huge loss of ridership? This is crazy think. For our TU types, the idea of MASS TRANSIT is to get people out of their cars and offer them an alternative, that is safe, swift and comfortable. This guy would celebrate closing down the system and renting it out for high roller partys at 4 Million a month. "Now let me see... duh, dats 300 people, and I gave dem 4 mil for November, wow my own toy train for a month..." Stupid is as Stupid does...
and the TIMES UNION CHEERS? OCKLAWAHA