It will be interesting to see what the results turn out to be....
QuoteRidership up during One Spark; free ride carries 4,300 a day
The Skyway has been called a joke and a disappointment, downtown Jacksonville's token, underachieving elevated train.
ABC News once called it the "Ride to nowhere." The system — built for $183 million which first opened in 1989 — has parts so old the original manufacturer no longer sells them.
To increase ridership, trips have been free since 2012.
In rare setbacks for Jacksonville Transportation Authority CEO Nathaniel Ford, the Skyway has missed out on federal grants twice in the past two years that would have helped extend the 2.5-mile system into Riverside — where there is budding commercial and residential development, and thus potential riders.
But the JTA has never been fully prepared to abandon the system.
"We, as a city and as a region, need to be thinking bigger about our transportation network," Ford wrote in a Times-Union op-ed after the first federal grant was denied in 2013. "We cannot be afraid to fail as we chase a bolder vision."
Now, JTA officials hope a $349,000 study will help them find answers for what, in the short, medium and long term, to do with Jacksonville's Skyway.
"We're looking at everything," said Brad Thoburn, director of strategic planning and research for JTA. "Is it better to replace the vehicles as opposed to refurbishing the vehicles? ... What does it cost to extend the Skyway and how does that compare to a streetcar or [rapid-transit] system?
"We're at the point of trying to get all that information together."
Full article: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2015-05-03/story/jta-assesses-skyway-mulls-where-go-next
Very interesting. While I'm not terribly stoked about the prospect of yet another study, we need some real answers for what to do with the Skyway.
Assessing the system on multiple variables is still a move in the right direction. As downtown continues to become a destination location, scenes like that at One Spark will become more common. The system was overloaded, lines formed, and people walked away. More passenger cars and extended hours could prove to be a game changer. When tourists visit Disney they know the format, you park and take the monorail. There is no reason for that not to be the mindset of visitors to downtown Jacksonville. The Skyway has been starved for funds for so many years that simple things like access, parking, and signage have fallen into disrepair.
Yeah, I'm just glad they're being active with the Skyway in any way. I'm sure it's always been a focus, it would be fairly easy to just let it sit on the back burner forever.
I still think extending to Riverside and/or the sports complexes would do a good deal for the program, but at this point I also wouldn't be too angry if they turned it into a garden walkway or something. Just about anything is better than the limbo it's been in for so long.
I have to say, I continue to be impressed with the handling of Skyway issues by JTA under Nat Ford. It would be easy to just let it ride, as it were, but they keeping pushing on through.
Impressed with what? More money wasted on another jacksonville study. It's 2015, not 1989. If you don't know where the skyway needs to go by now you shouldn't be in office. Watch we will be reading this same article again in 20 years.
I think it's more about if we should continue investing in the Skyway's current technology, than deciding on where it should go. Reality is, the thing is an expensive dinosaur.
Pretty much. And it would be very easy to just let it go and focus on other things, as has been our wont. Perhaps if the decision is made to convert to normal rail technology (and fund it), we may see a streetcar in Jacksonville after all.
^My hope is that the infrastructure can be utilized for a much more efficient system. There's a reason there's no "skyways" being built in this country. Expansion to the stadium, etc. makes no sense because the current system couldn't handle the crowds anyway. There are better options for reliable transit out there that can be implemented and maintained long term at a much lower cost.
^Do you think there's any possibility of converting to streetcar tracks? Assuming the elevated portions could handle it, it would mean we could extend the system as a normal streetcar, without having to build more elevated tracks (except where it makes sense, like San Marco), and without having to worry about people transferring trains from the Skyway to a streetcar if/when one is finally built.
It's been my understanding that the largest failure by not completing the original plan for the Skyway was that it truly is a system built to move no one to no where. The 'no one' aspect seems to be changing faster than the 'no where', but they're both getting better.
The Brooklyn development is a nice immediate boost. Healthy Town (or whatever it's called now) is a medium range boost. And then when you include all of the 'plans' for DT, from the core to the Shipyards, there appears to be a long-range boost in the works.
But isn't that what 'planning' is for? To plan and anticipate what's coming and the best way to approach it?
Immediate Need: Connect Brooklyn
Then start finding creative funding to prepare to extend it either to Healthy Town (if really needed) or to the Sports Complexes (whichever development is solidly happening) - even if not all the way to the stadium, but at least to Liberty St. and give people a 7 block alternative to walking, and still connect to one end of the Shipyards.
Then if those extensions become successes, then discussions for extension into Springfield or San Marco or deeper into 5 points can start.
The failure was we never built the citywide transit system that was supposed to feed it riders (ie. what Miami's Metrorail does for their Metromover). In addition, we've subsidized the decline of the downtown environment it was built to serve, replaced people with parking decks and surface lots, duplicated its route with the bus system and have paid no attention to the importance of integrating supportive land use policies with fixed mass transit. Basically, we're experts on what not to do if you want a successful fixed transit system.
With all of that said, it's not 1989 anymore. The system is pretty much an obsolete mode of fixed transit. Any talk of expansion has to be discussed in relation to if it's worth continuing to use the same technology or biting the bullet and upfront costs to switch to something that makes more sense in the long run.
Quote from: Tacachale on May 04, 2015, 11:06:00 AM
^Do you think there's any possibility of converting to streetcar tracks? Assuming the elevated portions could handle it, it would mean we could extend the system as a normal streetcar, without having to build more elevated tracks (except where it makes sense, like San Marco), and without having to worry about people transferring trains from the Skyway to a streetcar if/when one is finally built.
IMO, that would probably be the best case scenario long term. Switching to some common-used light weight vehicle that can utilize the existing infrastructure, while also being compatible with the at-grade environment for potential expansion into pedestrian scale districts and select trip generators outside of the DT core.
My other concern would be with the inclines needed to get up there. Streetcar/light rail doesn't handle inclines particularly well so I'm thinking it would require quite a ramp, which could be pretty obtrusive at the points of incline/decline.
You should see the grades some of the streetcar lines in Pittsburgh do. IMO I think the Skyway should use the name "Express" to its advantage, with fewer stops and longer distances and leave streetcar to do the short stop-n-go work, but Jax probably isn't quite ready for that.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 04, 2015, 10:36:18 AM
^My hope is that the infrastructure can be utilized for a much more efficient system. There's a reason there's no "skyways" being built in this country...
I beg to differ...
(http://i60.tinypic.com/108bdxv.jpg)
If you build it right... they are amazing and efficient! Nice, large, clean, not free... I was happy to pay to ride the Las Vegas Monorail. If you improve it, bring it up to modern standards and maintain it, people will be happy to pay a small fee to ride it. By making it free, it has become a moving shelter.
^^^That monorail still only carries ~12K passengers a day for a system that is 2x as long as JTA's Skyway, goes places (case in point, 7,000 hotel rooms visible between Bally's and Flamingo in the picture excluding that off-Strip Westin...with Caesar's and Bellagio across the Strip, and world's tallest ferris wheel, an attraction), and touches 125K+ hotel rooms filled with tourists needing a ride somewhere.
I don't call that particularly stellar performance. But that's just me.
Quote from: simms3 on May 04, 2015, 07:01:15 PM
^^^That monorail still only carries ~12K passengers a day for a system that is 2x as long as JTA's Skyway, goes places (case in point, 7,000 hotel rooms visible between Bally's and Flamingo in the picture excluding that off-Strip Westin...with Caesar's and Bellagio across the Strip, and world's tallest ferris wheel, an attraction), and touches 125K+ hotel rooms filled with tourists needing a ride somewhere.
I don't call that particularly stellar performance. But that's just me.
Okay, some valid points, but if you strip away all the surroundings and consider what it is and what it could be, in a more non-tourist setting, my point is that we have a hefty infrastructure already in place. Let's update it, expand it and use it for what it is.
All these "let's turn it into a street car even though it's not on the street" ideas are kind of out there... We all know that in it's current format, it is failing and not being "all it can be". The Vegas monorail was just an example to show that modern skyways are being built and they can work, especially within the infrastructure we currently have, if it was updated, expanded and a small fee attached. It could be amazing if (we) wanted it to be...
I live and work downtown.. and you know what...?? I'd pay money for it...I would love the opportunity to NOT have to jump in my car and drive to Fresh Market, enjoy dinner and drinks with my friends in 5 Points, shopping at the boutiques, brunch on Sundays and even catch a Jags game without having to park my car- since Im literally across the water. Im trying to embrace downtown living by supporting the downtown "lifestyle" -- living, working, playing and shopping, etc. Its just kinda weird I can only do it "half-way". :-\
I have heard that the structure is strong enough to hold light-rail / streetcars. Of course, there would be a lengthy "down" time while they took the monorail beam out, and whatever else would be necessary for streetcar / light rail.
Quote from: marty904 on May 04, 2015, 07:38:12 PM
Quote from: simms3 on May 04, 2015, 07:01:15 PM
^^^That monorail still only carries ~12K passengers a day for a system that is 2x as long as JTA's Skyway, goes places (case in point, 7,000 hotel rooms visible between Bally's and Flamingo in the picture excluding that off-Strip Westin...with Caesar's and Bellagio across the Strip, and world's tallest ferris wheel, an attraction), and touches 125K+ hotel rooms filled with tourists needing a ride somewhere.
I don't call that particularly stellar performance. But that's just me.
Okay, some valid points, but if you strip away all the surroundings and consider what it is and what it could be, in a more non-tourist setting, my point is that we have a hefty infrastructure already in place. Let's update it, expand it and use it for what it is.
All these "let's turn it into a street car even though it's not on the street" ideas are kind of out there... We all know that in it's current format, it is failing and not being "all it can be". The Vegas monorail was just an example to show that modern skyways are being built and they can work, especially within the infrastructure we currently have, if it was updated, expanded and a small fee attached. It could be amazing if (we) wanted it to be...
I wouldn't classify the Vegas monorail and the skyway as the exact same type of technology. Yes, the are both examples of monorails and elevated but that's about it. With that said, the Las Vegas monorail is still expensive and prohibits the system from being expanded into adjacent districts like Riverside and Springfield. Switching to the Las Vegas example would probably require just as much as a rebuild as switching to modern streetcar. Here's a few closer pics of the skyway:
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6969-p1150870.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6975-p1150873.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6980-p1150885.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6990-p1150894.JPG)
Quote from: simms3 on May 04, 2015, 07:01:15 PM
^^^That monorail still only carries ~12K passengers a day for a system that is 2x as long as JTA's Skyway, goes places (case in point, 7,000 hotel rooms visible between Bally's and Flamingo in the picture excluding that off-Strip Westin...with Caesar's and Bellagio across the Strip, and world's tallest ferris wheel, an attraction), and touches 125K+ hotel rooms filled with tourists needing a ride somewhere.
I don't call that particularly stellar performance. But that's just me.
They expect more ridership once the McCarron Airport extension is approved. Having been just there a few weeks ago, its easy to see why it doesn't get as much ridership as it should, but if travelers had a one ride ticket to their casino from the airport, i think it would improve.
So, what should they do then? Or what would be ideal? Any ideas??
I'd be interested to see what the study results say before coming to a final conclusion. However, if I had to take a stab in the dark on 3/4/15, I'd start looking at the bigger picture, which includes utilizing the infrastructure to connect downtown with neighborhoods surround it that are either already fairly pedestrian scale or those where density can significantly be increased. If it's deemed that to make such a scene possible requires a switch to something like a streetcar, so be it. Bite the bullet, pull that center beam up, lay some track, extend at street level to other neighborhoods and run with it. If it comes out the the existing technology or some other form of fixed technology makes better sense, then we should go that route.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 04, 2015, 10:29:23 PM
I'd be interested to see what the study results say before coming to a final conclusion. However, if I had to take a stab in the dark on 3/4/15,
Is that what you'd say on
5/4/15 as well? ;D
I'm no transit expert so I don't know how vastly different these technologies are, but I believe there are useful people mover systems in Vancouver, Singapore, Kuala Lumpur, and being built in Macau. So certainly some progressive places are utilizing something maybe somewhat similar.
I too would probably base my opinion on the results of this study. I absolutely want transit with its own ROW running from the North bank to Brooklyn, Riverside, San Marco, Stadium District and Springfield, but to what extent the skyway should be involved remains to be seen.
LOL, I don't know why I had March on my mind. Must be old age! I'm not familiar with the other systems but they all appear to be other forms of AGTs (Automated Guideway Transit). AGTs range from Jax's Skyway and Vancouver's Skytrain to PRTs (Personal Rapid Transit). AGT is just a generic term. None of the systems I described are interchangeable. They just happen to be automoted. Retrofitting the Skyway into either would require just as much of a rebuild as going to streetcar. Outside of an airport tram, we'll have to search long and hard to find something very similar to the Skyway that American cities are investing in today. This is one of its biggest problems. It's so unique they don't even make parts for it anymore.
Another difference between the Vancouver Skytrain and Jax's Skyway is that the Skytrain is basically a rapid transit system that's automated. The Skyway is an automated downtown circulator that one could easily describe as being a horizontal elevator. To make things more confusing, all AGTs aren't monorails. Both Miami's Metromover and the Skyway are AGTs. However, the Metromover isn't a monorail and the latest version of the Skyway is.
The original Skyway was not a monorail:
(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/slideshow_image_sizer.php?img=storyimages/1401897136OldSkyway3.jpg)
One of the reasons the Skyway's capital costs ended up much higher than it needed to be is because we retrofitted the system when it was expanded in the 1990s. The monorail version today:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1313149640_rZxGLV4-M.jpg)
For giggles, the original route verses what was built:
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/skyway/original-route-map.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/skyway/original-actual-map.jpg)
A very valuable piece of the existing Skyway for a future system is the river crossing. The north side of the bridge has the steepest grade which LRT may or may not be able to handle, but the track essentially comes down to grade to dip under another ramp. Using this for LRT would be nice.
Was there a legitimate concern that caused us to change the design to include a center beam? The original design was almost identical to Miami's.
I just watched a video on the metromover and it's design just seems so much more cost efficient in every way. Modified buses with 4 sets of wheels and a 3rd rail.
Those pictures of the undercarriage of ours look like an engineering nightmare.
The new Siemans fleet in Frisco is rated at up to 9%. In the past lines in the Bay area and in Pittsburgh operated at double digit grading, albeit with completely different equipment than what is industry standard nowadays.
(http://dhkzkmq0ef5g3.cloudfront.net/images/made/Baltimore_Light_Rail_500_333_80.jpg)
Picture of Baltimore's LRT which reaches the 6% territory in certain sections.
(http://www.stacywitbeck.com/images/project/47/DSC_5082_rezied.jpg)
Picture of Salt Lake City's LRT which manages close to 7% at the big S curve transition area.
What's the Acosta rated at? Is the JTA study going to do a cost/benefit of the maintenance costs for rubber tired uses versus a true steel/steel configuration? Are they going to also consider a possible retrofit for electric trolley busses? (its concievable that a trolleybus system could be designed to incorporate off-wire uses in parts of Riverside/San Marco, no?)
I think the Acosta is 6%.
Sounds like grading isn't a limitation then... but perhaps a comparison between maintenance costs if you are going away from systems that use rubber tires would be a big difference?
Quote from: thelakelander on May 05, 2015, 12:50:08 AM
None of the systems I described are interchangeable. They just happen to be automoted. Retrofitting the Skyway into either would require just as much of a rebuild as going to streetcar. Outside of an airport tram, we'll have to search long and hard to find something very similar to the Skyway that American cities are investing in today. This is one of its biggest problems. It's so unique they don't even make parts for it anymore.
I figured as much. What I had no idea was that the original skyway wasn't monorail. So we spent millions to upgrade the system in the 90s into an even more outdated mode? Fantastic...
Other considerations would be minimum turning radius, vertical clearance, the type of service/frequencies desired, etc. Here's a pretty decent comparison chart of transit technologies from Kimberly Horn:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/Transit-Technologies/i-P8v5dXT/0/X2/Transit_Tech_table_v3_Page_1-X2.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/Transit-Technologies/i-5mD5Dst/0/X2/Transit_Tech_table_v3_Page_2-X2.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/Transit-Technologies/i-q5Fp2tT/0/X2/Transit_Tech_table_v3_Page_3-X2.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/Transit-Technologies/i-fCHLM2B/0/X2/Transit_Tech_table_v3_Page_4-X2.jpg)
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on May 05, 2015, 11:47:11 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on May 05, 2015, 12:50:08 AM
None of the systems I described are interchangeable. They just happen to be automoted. Retrofitting the Skyway into either would require just as much of a rebuild as going to streetcar. Outside of an airport tram, we'll have to search long and hard to find something very similar to the Skyway that American cities are investing in today. This is one of its biggest problems. It's so unique they don't even make parts for it anymore.
I figured as much. What I had no idea was that the original skyway wasn't monorail. So we spent millions to upgrade the system in the 90s into an even more outdated mode? Fantastic...
Because.... Planning!
The chart shows a major problem with the Skyway's cost whenever we start talking about expanding (much less, updating something already pretty much obsolete). Such a system cost just as much per mile as building a freaking heavy rail system (ex. DC Metro, NYC Subway, Atlanta's MARTA, etc.). That's a ton of cash for something that doesn't have the capacity to serve an event like One Spark, much less a regular Jags game. At ground zero, for the same cost you can get twice as much LRT, 3 times as much modern streetcar, and 6 times as much heritage streetcar. However, with those systems, you can easily add extra cars when needed.
Depending on how much cash a community has the play with, the selection of technology can easily determine if you end up with a project taking you from a seldom used convention center to a seldom used parking deck or one that serves DT will penetrating places like Springfield, Riverside and San Marco.
For those wondering how the Skyway can be "obsolete" technology. ......the Skyway is based on UM (former Universal Mobility) Model III design. UM was bought out by Bombardier right about the time JTA decided to drop Matra as the primary contractor.
Bombardier doesnt manufacture the UM products anymore. Most of their current monorail designs are based on the Innovia which is a more modern version of the Mark IV which is what is used at Disney.
Clearly the supporting infra of the Skyway was overdesigned and could support larger duty car sets. The question remaains if there is a longer articulated car that can negotiate the Acosta and the turns along the route.
An interview with a sales person at Bombardier would be great right now.
Does the price on that chart exclude right of way? AGT seems to be the only one that doesn't mention that it excludes it.
I'm still convinced that the Skyway needs to be expanded to include the originally planned terminus locations of Brooklyn, San Marco, Sports Complex, and Shands Hospital. All of these nodes can be easily reached without detracting from the neighborhoods and would allow most of the residents of downtown to get around without having to use their cars as much. THEN streetcars can interlace the historic neighborhoods and all join together athe JRTC.
BUT, the only way the Skyway will ever be used to its full capacity is to have it tied into a region wide system using LRT or commuter rail. Only then will it be utilized by people outside of downtown.
^Short of bringing the Skyway up-to-date, we'd be looking at spending at least another $100-$150 million to reach these areas. Even with that, it would still struggle with ridership without us investing hundreds of millions more in something that serves all the places it would miss. Unfortunately, assuming we did that and fed the thing with additional riders, it still would not have the capacity to handle crowds at the sport complex. Unfortunately, we can't count on commuter rail to really feed it either. If similar to Sunrail, it would generate less ridership than the Skyway does now. Sunrail is a little over 4k riders/day despite being over 30 miles long in length. When we first launched MJ in 2006, I was a big Skyway expansion proponent. As my knowledge and understanding of our landscape, our politics, the Skyway's costs, and other available modes has grown, I've reached the point where I believe we need to take a long and hard look at its future. At the end of the day, we can only beat a dead horse for so long.
I don't think someone that wants to ride from say Avondale to Springfield is going to want to get on a streetcar, transfer to the skyway, then transfer back to a streetcar. Too much work to ride a few miles. I think it would make a lot more sense to have a streetcar line from Fairfax to the Sports district, and one from San Marco to Springfield. One possible transfer in the middle.
^ if there was a streetcar line from Avondale to Springfield, it would go through downtown...as such, folks would not be required to transfer to the Skyway. In fact, having the Skyway go up Hogan Street and a streetcar say up Newnan might make a lot of sense.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 05, 2015, 02:24:23 PM
Sunrail is a little over 4k riders/day despite being over 30 miles long in length.
and they recently announced (shockingly) that the Feds denied New Starts funding for the 11 mile northern extension to Deland because estimates showed only 200 riders a day on the segment!
I was in Jacksonville this weekend, I was surprised to see the Skyway running on aSaturday....did they change the scheduling? Streetcar is an ok idea, but the Skyway needs to be extended to places and development near stations should be encouraged. Why is this not happening yet?
Doesn't Miami also have a heavy rail line? What would be the cost for getting street car started in Jax?
Quote from: Coolyfett on May 05, 2015, 10:22:58 PM
I was in Jacksonville this weekend, I was surprised to see the Skyway running on aSaturday....did they change the scheduling?
No but it runs on weekends every now and then, if there's an event going on in downtown.
QuoteStreetcar is an ok idea, but the Skyway needs to be extended to places and development near stations should be encouraged. Why is this not happening yet?
^Because we're broke, the skyway is obsolete, the price to extend it cost just as much as building a subway and the feds haven't given us money to go on a building spree.
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on May 05, 2015, 11:03:50 PM
Doesn't Miami also have a heavy rail line? What would be the cost for getting street car started in Jax?
Yes. In addition to a peoplemover, Miami has heavy rail, commuter rail and BRT. A modern streetcar from DT to Riverside would probably run between $35 to $50 million. A heritage streetcar could probably be done for half that cost.
Quote from: tufsu1 on May 05, 2015, 05:11:52 PM
^ if there was a streetcar line from Avondale to Springfield, it would go through downtown...as such, folks would not be required to transfer to the Skyway. In fact, having the Skyway go up Hogan Street and a streetcar say up Newnan might make a lot of sense.
Sure, I was responding to Jason's post that the skyway connect the historic neighborhoods to DT and then the system would carry on by a transfer to streetcar lines that ran around each neighborhood.
Personally I'd rather see the skyway eliminated and be replaced with a streetcar. I don't like the elevated concrete mess running through downtown.
I hate to keep drawing the parallel, but in Disney's case their monorail is part of the identity and branding of the whole experience. Regardless of how anyone feels about the Skyway it has become fused with the identity and brand of downtown, and I see that as a strength. It is one more box that we get to check off regarding features of great urban areas. It is dysfunctional, expensive, and antiquated, but the qualitative function it plays could be of hidden wealth to the community. I'm 100% in the streetcar/elevated rail hybrid camp. It is by far the best way to salvage the current status quo.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 05, 2015, 11:08:28 PM
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on May 05, 2015, 11:03:50 PM
Doesn't Miami also have a heavy rail line? What would be the cost for getting street car started in Jax?
Yes. In addition to a peoplemover, Miami has heavy rail, commuter rail and BRT. A modern streetcar from DT to Riverside would probably run between $35 to $50 million. A heritage streetcar could probably be done for half that cost.
and heavy rail by comparison would likely cost over $200 million just for the leg from Riverside to Downtown
Quote from: thelakelander on May 05, 2015, 11:05:36 PM
Quote from: Coolyfett on May 05, 2015, 10:22:58 PM
I was in Jacksonville this weekend, I was surprised to see the Skyway running on aSaturday....did they change the scheduling?
No but it runs on weekends every now and then, if there's an event going on in downtown.
Quote
Yep...it was running for the "Art in the Park" event at Hemming.
http://www.rtands.com/index.php/track-maintenance/on-track-maintenance/usdot-substantial-demand-underscores-need-for-tiger-grants.html?channel= (http://www.rtands.com/index.php/track-maintenance/on-track-maintenance/usdot-substantial-demand-underscores-need-for-tiger-grants.html?channel=)
Has JTA given up on the Tiger grant process?
Quote from: icarus on August 04, 2015, 04:22:54 PM
http://www.rtands.com/index.php/track-maintenance/on-track-maintenance/usdot-substantial-demand-underscores-need-for-tiger-grants.html?channel= (http://www.rtands.com/index.php/track-maintenance/on-track-maintenance/usdot-substantial-demand-underscores-need-for-tiger-grants.html?channel=)
Has JTA given up on the Tiger grant process?
JTA's 2015 TIGER grant application was a request to extend the Mobility Works program designed to improve pedestrian and cycling infrastructure as well as ADA compliance in certain high risk sections in town, called Opportunity Corridors (as you may be aware, Jacksonville ranks as one of the most dangerous cities for pedestrians nationwide).
You can view the application here:
http://www.jtafla.com/PDF/TigerGrant_2015/JTA_TIGER_Final_060315.pdf (http://www.jtafla.com/PDF/TigerGrant_2015/JTA_TIGER_Final_060315.pdf)
Thanks. This makes a lot of sense and hopefully, with our ranking in that area ... we receive this grant application.
Good luck.
QuoteApplications to the U.S. Department of Transportation's seventh round of Transportation Investment Generating Economic Recovery (TIGER) grants totaled $9.8 billion, almost 20 times the $500 million set aside for the program...
So is JTA planning to extend the Skyway to Brooklyn with their own money or is that plan off the table since they could not win TIGER grant money?
Quote from: thelakelander on August 04, 2015, 05:13:42 PM
Good luck.
QuoteApplications to the U.S. Department of Transportation's seventh round of Transportation Investment Generating Economic Recovery (TIGER) grants totaled $9.8 billion, almost 20 times the $500 million set aside for the program...
So is JTA planning to extend the Skyway to Brooklyn with their own money or is that plan off the table since they could not win TIGER grant money?
I hope they don't extend the skyway at all. What skyway in this country actually serves its purpose efficiently? Is there some reason why the bus on Riverside does not get people downtown efficiently?
Quote from: spuwho on May 05, 2015, 12:54:02 PM
Clearly the supporting infra of the Skyway was overdesigned and could support larger duty car sets. The question remaains if there is a longer articulated car that can negotiate the Acosta and the turns along the route.
An interview with a sales person at Bombardier would be great right now.
That monorail can't work as mass transportation is misleading. It can. If measured by ridership, the Orlando monorail would be the United States' ninth heaviest-used rapid transit system*, ahead of Los Angeles' Red and Purple lines. Roughly 150,000 people use the network each day in America's most visited travel destination, meaning that it plays an important role in shaping the American vision about how transit should work. The trouble we face is the astronomical cost of the Skyway Monorail as designed. As Lakelander has said, as built, under crush loads, it can't perform the minimum tasks of delivering people to games and events.
The Light-Rail possibility is there, but the Acosta will be the Achilles heel in that conversion. Next time you ride notice the clearance on the roofline next to the bridge piers on the west/north side of the river... Maybe 2' feet... MAYBE! And these are micro-cars.
As for the streetcar charts, somebody needs to inform the public that the idea that modern streetcar or heritage streetcar DOES NOT NEED TO OPERATE IN THE STREET COMPETING WITH AUTOMOBILES! THINK MEDIANS! Green space with rails. If an elevated monorail is an icon of our city, then an elevated portion of a streetcar system can do the same thing.
It should also be noted that even if we went with the lower cost heritage streetcars, they typically operated with 'trailer' cars. Meaning on game days 2-4 car trains would be possible and each train would have a greater capacity for passengers then the entire current fleet of Skyway cars. ONE OPERATOR per train.
Extend the elevated sections to north of State Street, East of Main, and South of the FEC in San Marco, bring the rest down at the Brooklyn Barns and convert it to streetcar/LRT. Get the rest on the side of the road, through the alleys, waterfronts, medians and abandoned rail right-of-ways and you have a design for success and urban growth.
*Meaning heavy rail, subway.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 04, 2015, 08:25:15 PM
Quote from: spuwho on May 05, 2015, 12:54:02 PM
Clearly the supporting infra of the Skyway was overdesigned and could support larger duty car sets. The question remaains if there is a longer articulated car that can negotiate the Acosta and the turns along the route.
An interview with a sales person at Bombardier would be great right now.
That monorail can't work as mass transportation is misleading. It can. If measured by ridership, the Orlando monorail would be the United States' ninth heaviest-used rapid transit system*, ahead of Los Angeles' Red and Purple lines. Roughly 150,000 people use the network each day in America's most visited travel destination, meaning that it plays an important role in shaping the American vision about how transit should work. The trouble we face is the astronomical cost of the Skyway Monorail as designed. As Lakelander has said, as built, under crush loads, it can't perform the minimum tasks of delivering people to games and events.
The Light-Rail possibility is there, but the Acosta will be the Achilles heel in that conversion. Next time you ride notice the clearance on the roofline next to the bridge piers on the west/north side of the river... Maybe 2' feet... MAYBE! And these are micro-cars.
As for the streetcar charts, somebody needs to inform the public that the idea that modern streetcar or heritage streetcar DOES NOT NEED TO OPERATE IN THE STREET COMPETING WITH AUTOMOBILES! THINK MEDIANS! Green space with rails. If an elevated monorail is an icon of our city, then an elevated portion of a streetcar system can do the same thing.
It should also be noted that even if we went with the lower cost heritage streetcars, they typically operated with 'trailer' cars. Meaning on game days 2-4 car trains would be possible and each train would have a greater capacity for passengers then the entire current fleet of Skyway cars. ONE OPERATOR per train.
Extend the elevated sections to north of State Street, East of Main, and South of the FEC in San Marco, bring the rest down at the Brooklyn Barns and convert it to streetcar/LRT. Get the rest on the side of the road, through the alleys, waterfronts, medians and abandoned rail right-of-ways and you have a design for success and urban growth.
*Meaning heavy rail, subway.
Long term this makes sense. I like the monorail. It is quick and works efficiently. The problem is it is far easier for me to jump in my car from DT and go to Southbank than it is to ride the Skyway. I think extending this thing to Brooklyn is vital and attempting to build up LaVilla with some TOD around the Skyway. I really believe that could be closer than we think with some development similar to what is happening in Brooklyn (just hopefully better with mixed use). I think the first move is a street car into Riverside within the decade with a transfer to the monorail and then consider switching from monorail if it makes sense at that point. Similarly, depending upon how the Shipyards develop, street car is an option out towards the stadium. However, TOD should be occurring now in North and South banks and if it is not, I would be hard pressed to believe it will occur by just adding some rail. Until it is not worth it to park in DT, and easier to take transit (when there are actually people living DT), then light rail outside the core does not make sense IMO because people will still drive because it is still far easier.
The Key for light-rail outside of downtown, (and frankly considering our size I'd suggest 'rapid streetcar') is to locate it along traditionally clogged streets during the morning and evening rush hours. Roosevelt all the way into OP is an example, JTB and 95/1/FEC RofW from downtown to JTB is another. Local streetcar into northwest JAX and north into Springfield would support a large transit dependent population as well. That would equate to:
4 local lines
NW JAX
SPRINGFIELD-GATEWAY
BROOKLYN-RIVERSIDE*
SAN MARCO SQUARE
2 commuting lines
*extension of the BROOKLYN-RIVERSIDE line to OP
splitting from the SAN MARCO SQUARE route around the Hilton, for JTB and Town Center - Beaches (ultimately).
All of these using exclusive lanes, medians, side of road, etc. wherever possible, and ABSOLUTE separation on the lines that extend farther.
Btw, I believe the land once earmarked for the skyway on the SW corner of Forest and Riverside is no longer public. I heard it was recently sold to a private company. I assume the idea of extending the skyway south down Riverside Avenue is dying.
the skyway will never be extended down Riverside Ave.
Quote from: fsujax on August 05, 2015, 01:57:47 PM
the skyway will never be extended down Riverside Ave.
And it shouldn't. These things are big, bulky, ugly, cost a lot of money and block out the sun. Even the more charming historic-looking elevated train in Chicago is pretty imposing, which is why it travels behind buildings through alley ways, etc. The streets that it runs over downtown in the Loop are not as nice for pedestrians as the adjacent streets that are open with nothing blocking out the sun. I'm not positive but I think it decreases the value of the storefronts that it runs along compared to the next streets over. I don't see any reason for them to continue the skyway right now down Riverside when buses can service that area pretty efficiently. If there is ever any extension of an elevated system it should be behind buildings or along streets that aren't as vibrant with pedestrian activity.
Quote from: CCMjax on August 05, 2015, 02:11:43 PM
Quote from: fsujax on August 05, 2015, 01:57:47 PM
the skyway will never be extended down Riverside Ave.
And it shouldn't. These things are big, bulky, ugly, cost a lot of money and block out the sun. Even the more charming historic-looking elevated train in Chicago is pretty imposing, which is why it travels behind buildings through alley ways, etc. The streets that it runs over downtown in the Loop are not as nice for pedestrians as the adjacent streets that are open with nothing blocking out the sun. I'm not positive but I think it decreases the value of the storefronts that it runs along compared to the next streets over. I don't see any reason for them to continue the skyway right now down Riverside when buses can service that area pretty efficiently. If there is ever any extension of an elevated system it should be behind buildings or along streets that aren't as vibrant with pedestrian activity.
Which is why converting it to elevated streetcar then getting those cars to surface level at the most logical locations* makes more sense then doing ANYTHING else with a rapidly decaying monorail. Use what we have, add the modifications and go from there. If JTA/COJ would ever present a united front and a comprehensive A-Z plan for conversion and the future rapid streetcars, we'd win that TIGER money. Nickel and Dime grant requests are hardly worth the paper.
*Such as NORTH OF STATE STREET rather then short of it.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/Light-Rail-and-Streetcar/New-Streetcar-Projects/i-MrdFSkf/0/L/German%20Streetcar-L.jpg)
Look Mom! A Streetcar without a Street! EASY + CHEAP
^Where is that located?
Looks like Berlin!
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3063/3109526255_543594e5ca_o.jpg)
Thank you, Sir!
How does everyone feel about the Skyway being retroffitted to accommodate vehicles like that and those vehicles being able to drop to grade, for potential expansion into surrounding neighborhoods?
Quote from: thelakelander on August 05, 2015, 08:35:00 PM
Thank you, Sir!
How does everyone feel about the Skyway being retroffitted to accommodate vehicles like that and those vehicles being able to drop to grade, for potential expansion into surrounding neighborhoods?
Like!
Quote from: thelakelander on August 05, 2015, 08:35:00 PM
Thank you, Sir!
How does everyone feel about the Skyway being retroffitted to accommodate vehicles like that and those vehicles being able to drop to grade, for potential expansion into surrounding neighborhoods?
I like it but would it be easier (funding wise) to get a street car built first down to Riverside with a connector to the Skyway, or redo the whole thing at once?
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on August 05, 2015, 07:42:11 PM
Looks like Berlin!
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3063/3109526255_543594e5ca_o.jpg)
You get the prize! Actually its a new Bombardier Flexity - Wagen #0041 auf der Lindenpromenade.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 05, 2015, 10:22:51 PM
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on August 05, 2015, 07:42:11 PM
Looks like Berlin!
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3063/3109526255_543594e5ca_o.jpg)
You get the prize! That first photo is Actually a new Bombardier Flexity - Wagen #0041 auf der Lindenpromenade.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 05, 2015, 08:35:00 PM
Thank you, Sir!
How does everyone feel about the Skyway being retroffitted to accommodate vehicles like that and those vehicles being able to drop to grade, for potential expansion into surrounding neighborhoods?
If that's doable, it would be great. It would be much easier to expand that way.
Oh it's doable, its just a matter of how long will we have to wait for the City to catch the rest of the transit universe. Those vehicles BTW, The Flexity Classic XXL model was developed for the Dresden Transport Authority by the German factory Bombardier Transportation in Bautzen. It is 45 m (147 ft 8 in) long, runs on twelve axles and has a capacity of 260 passengers with 153 seats. Now just imagine what that could do at the stadium running entrain with two or three units per operator every 5 minutes.
The Flexity Classic XXL (classification NGT D12DD) has, because of Dresden's altitude differences of 100 metres, a power-to-weight ratio of 112 kg/hp. The tram has been in service since 2003 and serves tram lines with a high peak load of passengers. The exterior is specially designed for the Dresden Transport Authority, which owns 32 trams. That Acosta bridge is nothing that can't be overcome by streetcar from the oldest to the newest IF we can get around and under the Riverside Ramps.
Sweet what do I win?? ;D
Quote from: thelakelander on August 05, 2015, 08:35:00 PM
Thank you, Sir!
How does everyone feel about the Skyway being retroffitted to accommodate vehicles like that and those vehicles being able to drop to grade, for potential expansion into surrounding neighborhoods?
This is the best bet imo if it's doable. There's no reason to add a transfer to a new system within the urban core if we can avoid it.
But I do echo ForF's concern if this would cause a delay in implementation. Can we get the streetcar running first separately from Skyway and then tie them together in the future.
If gasoline was $7.00 per gallon at this point in 2015. Most people on this topic would love the Streetcar! We had streetcars many, many, years ago. And for me streetcars get people around most cities better then the bus IMO. The Skyway never had the ridership JTA thought that it would. If we can't upgrade the skyway then we should kill it. And then turn it into a walk & bike park for all to use. LETS BRING BACK THE STREETCAR! :)
Quote from: thelakelander on August 05, 2015, 08:35:00 PM
Thank you, Sir!
How does everyone feel about the Skyway being retroffitted to accommodate vehicles like that and those vehicles being able to drop to grade, for potential expansion into surrounding neighborhoods?
I've daydreamed of this very thing for a while now. The Skyway now is one of the easiest punchlines in town, but the structure itself doesn't have to be entirely scrapped. Put lightrail tracks on it and bring it down Riverside Ave on ground level. I can't pretend I know the full impact/cost of that but as far as pipedreams go, there are worse ones out there.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 05, 2015, 08:35:00 PM
Thank you, Sir!
How does everyone feel about the Skyway being retroffitted to accommodate vehicles like that and those vehicles being able to drop to grade, for potential expansion into surrounding neighborhoods?
Brilliant! As part of the retrofit, one of the first extensions should be into the quickly growing Brooklyn neighborhood, and the second extension probably down Bay street towards the stadium district.
I've daydreamed of this very thing for a while now. The Skyway now is one of the easiest punchlines in town, but the structure itself doesn't have to be entirely scrapped. Put lightrail tracks on it and bring it down Riverside Ave on ground level. I can't pretend I know the full impact/cost of that but as far as pipedreams go, there are worse ones out there.
[/quote]
Now? The Skyway has been churning out 1M rides a year for the last three years. There has never been a time when the Skyway has been more widely used and accepted than right now. Oh its not perfect. But the punchlines are much fewer and far between than ever.
No argument about ridership raising, but it's a free service right now and One Spark accounts for a bit of that jump I would imagine. And it's my understanding that they don't even make certain necessary parts for the type of Skyway that exists, so any expansion that miraculously gets pushed through would have that to contend with on top of everything else.
I think converting it to a more modern, more common transportation system would give it a better shot at being expanded. Which in my mind is the key to making it worth the initial investment. Maybe even profitable.
Like I said, it's pipe-dreamy, but I like the idea of it. I won't sit here and pretend I know that to be the answer to all of our prayers.
Quote from: Andy on August 07, 2015, 02:29:43 PM
No argument about ridership raising, but it's a free service right now and I would imagine that One Spark accounts for a bit of that jump. And it's my understanding that they don't even make certain necessary parts for the type of Skyway that exists, so any expansion that miraculously gets pushed through would have that to contend with on top of everything else.
I think converting it to a more modern, more common transportation system would give it a better shot at being expanded. Which in my mind is the key to making it worth the initial investment. Maybe even profitable.
Like I said, it's pipe-dreamy, but I like the idea of it. I won't sit here and pretend I know that to be the answer to all of our prayers.
^agreed, and I hope that's what JTA is thinking too. They're performing a study (yes, i know) to examine the feasibility of the system moving forward and whether or not to expand, maintain operations, or whatever. So hopefully they're also looking into the possibility of converting into a different system while salvaging the infrastructure that exists. Hopefully.
Quote from: Andy on August 07, 2015, 02:29:43 PM
No argument about ridership raising, but it's a free service right now and One Spark accounts for a bit of that jump I would imagine. And it's my understanding that they don't even make certain necessary parts for the type of Skyway that exists, so any expansion that miraculously gets pushed through would have that to contend with on top of everything else.
I think converting it to a more modern, more common transportation system would give it a better shot at being expanded. Which in my mind is the key to making it worth the initial investment. Maybe even profitable.
Like I said, it's pipe-dreamy, but I like the idea of it. I won't sit here and pretend I know that to be the answer to all of our prayers.
One Spark helps buts its still only a few days in April. This year the April numbers for the Skyway were 170,000. The Skyway averages about 114,000/month - so there is still a lot of ridership aside from One Spark. In fact, if you take out One Spark out of the equation completely, the Skyway would still reach 1,000,000 trips the last two years and will again this year. Ridership five years ago was about 500K (at 35 cents). This year it will top 1.3M rides. The FREE part of it helps, but I don't think it makes a 800K difference.
No question JTA has to figure out what to do with the technology part. New train and propulsion system a must. So no expansion talk until that gets worked out.
While I am not endorsing or rejecting this suggestion, I have heard a number of folks recommend a rather fundamental and intriguing change in how the Skyway is used: as Jacksonville's version of the High Line that is so popular in New York City. Though this would not advance the cause of mass transit, it would be iconic and might well be a way to make Downtown more pedestrian and bicycle friendly. Since I am still a Newbie, my guess is that the folks on Metro Jacksonville have already thoroughly examined this idea for all of its pros and cons. But I thought I would float it again. Please see below Washington Post article.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/new-yorks-high-line-why-the-floating-promenade-is-so-popular/2014/11/30/6f3e30cc-5e20-11e4-8b9e-2ccdac31a031_story.html
Quote from: Chris Hand on August 27, 2015, 06:31:35 PM
While I am not endorsing or rejecting this suggestion, I have heard a number of folks recommend a rather fundamental and intriguing change in how the Skyway is used: as Jacksonville's version of the High Line that is so popular in New York City. Though this would not advance the cause of mass transit, it would be iconic and might well be a way to make Downtown more pedestrian and bicycle friendly. Since I am still a Newbie, my guess is that the folks on Metro Jacksonville have already thoroughly examined this idea for all of its pros and cons. But I thought I would float it again. Please see below Washington Post article.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/new-yorks-high-line-why-the-floating-promenade-is-so-popular/2014/11/30/6f3e30cc-5e20-11e4-8b9e-2ccdac31a031_story.html
You mean removing the trains? Then we'd be on the hook for paying the Feds back tens of millions of dollars.
It would be physically impossible. The skyway infrastructure isn't wide enough to do anything effective. The High Line, on the other hand, was a rail line with several industrial sidings (like our S-Line) or Atlanta's Belt Line, just elevated.
High Line
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3191309985_CWTVRwN-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3191309277_x6LWqnW-M.jpg)
Skyway
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1313149640_rZxGLV4-M.jpg)
This is one of those things we should not overthink. Fixed transit plays a very important role in vibrant urban cities. All we need to do with the Skyway is full integrate with the surrounding land uses and mass transit network. "High Line" doesn't make sense with our infrastructure but a "Belt Line" (enhancing the S-Line corridor) and dusting off that old "Emerald Necklace" plan from the Delaney era are both worth additional consideration.