Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3883789943_7GHQDpX-L.jpg)
Shahid Khan's plans for the Jacksonville Shipyards have been released. Here are several renderings of the ambitious proposal.
Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2015-feb-khans-jacksonville-shipyards-plans-revealed
Wow. Even though I am in the middle of actively pursuing leaving this sometimes craphole town, this is giving me pause.
QuoteJACKSONVILLE JAGUARS REVEAL BIG PLANS FOR FLORIDA'S FIRST NAVAL WARSHIP MUSEUM
February 17, 2015 – Jacksonville, FL –The Jacksonville Jaguars' release of its plans to revitalize the North Florida Shipyards in downtown Jacksonville includes hosting Florida's first naval warship museum. Jacksonville Historic Naval Ship Association (JHNSA) Executive Director Joe Snowberger said he is thrilled with the monumental announcement by the local National Football League franchise and its owner, Shad Khan.
"Shad Khan and the entire Jacksonville Jaguars organization have, once again, demonstrated their enormous commitment to the people of Jacksonville and the military community that is so deeply interwoven into our businesses, organizations, and neighborhoods. We are deeply honored that Mr. Khan's unprecedented vision to revitalize downtown Jacksonville includes the USS Adams Museum as one of the attractions of this world-class project."
Snowberger added that the inclusion of Florida's first naval warship museum in the organization's plans for the development of the Shipyards was first discussed last summer. Today's statement by Populous Senior Architect and Principal Ben Stindt solidified that promise when Stindt displayed a rendering of the Shipyards project featuring the USS Adams, adding that, "The USS Adams will find a permanent home at the Shipyards..."
Daniel Bean, President of the JHNSA said he expects even more community members will step forward to donate funds and volunteer to assist with the project. Barring any unforeseen hurdles, the warship should arrive on or about June 1, 2015 and could be ready for public tours as early as Veterans' Day later this year. According to Bean, the USS Adams Museum will provide a top-notch entertainment and educational experience for visitors and will attract tourism dollars to downtown Jacksonville. Bean also confirmed that the JHNSA is ready now to invest the 1.5 million dollars it will take to begin restoration work on the ship.
"Today, thanks to this extraordinary show of support by our Jacksonville Jaguars, we are ready to reach out to those specialists who we know are available on the First Coast to begin the first phase of restoration work on this last surviving USS Adams class warship. There are national companies capable of handling this prestigious project, but we want to award this 1.5 million dollar contract to a local company that we know employs local experts; the welders, the iron workers, and others, who call Northeast Florida home."
Once in operation, the USS Adams Museum will serve as a self-sustaining salute to honor America's military veterans, inspire and educate the youth of Jacksonville, and draw tens of thousands of visitors to the downtown area each year.
For more information or to donate to the project please visit www.ussadams.com.
Source: www.ussadams.com
If you pay close attention to the opening of the video, or look at the slides you can see that Berkman 2 not only missing but actually replaced by an entirely new structure. I wonder if this just for concept purposes only or is it something actually planned by Khan.
Quote from: Marle Brando on February 17, 2015, 01:28:27 PM
If you pay close attention to the opening of the video, or look at the slides you can see that Berkman 2 not only missing but actually replaced by an entirely new structure. I wonder if this just for concept purposes only or is it something actually planned by Khan.
The marina is also gone.
This plan looks something serious. That's a whole lot going on if it actually gets built.
Quote from: BoldCityRealist on February 17, 2015, 01:14:07 PM
Wow. Even though I am in the middle of actively pursuing leaving this sometimes craphole town, this is giving me pause.
Nah, with that attitude, you can leave, since the grass is always greener :P
A few things about the video:
1) Too many palm trees! This ain't south florida!
2) Awesome awesome awesome use of the river! Really capitalizing on what we have that makes us unique. Love the walkway!
3) Where's the skyway connectivity? Still "under study?"
What are the chances of even 10% of this happening? It seems like there's plans for the SJTC announced, and within 6 months the doors are open. Downtown projects get announced, and never heard from again.
Sure you know the reason for the difference between town center and downtown.
Quote from: coredumped on February 17, 2015, 01:45:25 PM
Quote from: BoldCityRealist on February 17, 2015, 01:14:07 PM
Wow. Even though I am in the middle of actively pursuing leaving this sometimes craphole town, this is giving me pause.
Nah, with that attitude, you can leave, since the grass is always greener :P
A few things about the video:
1) Too many palm trees! This ain't south florida!
2) Awesome awesome awesome use of the river! Really capitalizing on what we have that makes us unique. Love the walkway!
3) Where's the skyway connectivity? Still "under study?"
What are the chances of even 10% of this happening? It seems like there's plans for the SJTC announced, and within 6 months the doors are open. Downtown projects get announced, and never heard from again.
Agreed; while this was one of the most impressive presentations for the use of this site, it's hard to get excited when for the past however many years, that's all we've had to go by. Skyway connectivity and even a trolly/tram service within would be great as well... Here's hoping that this one comes into fruition!!
Quote from: JUGrad on February 17, 2015, 01:55:52 PM
Quote from: coredumped on February 17, 2015, 01:45:25 PM
Quote from: BoldCityRealist on February 17, 2015, 01:14:07 PM
Wow. Even though I am in the middle of actively pursuing leaving this sometimes craphole town, this is giving me pause.
Nah, with that attitude, you can leave, since the grass is always greener :P
A few things about the video:
1) Too many palm trees! This ain't south florida!
2) Awesome awesome awesome use of the river! Really capitalizing on what we have that makes us unique. Love the walkway!
3) Where's the skyway connectivity? Still "under study?"
What are the chances of even 10% of this happening? It seems like there's plans for the SJTC announced, and within 6 months the doors are open. Downtown projects get announced, and never heard from again.
Agreed; while this was one of the most impressive presentations for the use of this site, it's hard to get excited when for the past however many years, that's all we've had to go by. Skyway connectivity and even a trolly/tram service within would be great as well... Here's hoping that this one comes into fruition!!
At least this one is being proposed by a real person with real money with actual ties to the city.
Anyone have more info on the inclusion of Hogan's Creek Greenway?
Beautiful imagery, but nothing more than an exercise in graphic design until there's financial data. Anything done on financial feasibility? City commitment, ownership consortium commitment, bank debt commitments? Hard to get very excited about this without a discussion on numbers and timelines, especially in light of past failures on this property. Oh well, I suppose the media buzz about downtown's potential is probably worth something down the road.
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on February 17, 2015, 02:16:29 PM
Beautiful imagery, but nothing more than an exercise in graphic design until there's financial data. Anything done on financial feasibility? City commitment, ownership consortium commitment, bank debt commitments? Hard to get very excited about this without a discussion on numbers and timelines, especially in light of past failures on this property. Oh well, I suppose the media buzz about downtown's potential is probably worth something down the road.
Supposedly more of the financials to be discussed when it is presented to DIA next week.
When the concept of the scoreboards and pool cabanas were first introduced by Khan, were they also attached with an initial price tag / implementation strategy? Either way, I would have a hard time believing Khan would waste his time and energy on a project of this magnitude if he didn't think it was completely possible and rational. This is the coolest idea I've ever seen for Jacksonville and we are so fortunate to have someone like Khan wanting to invest so much into our city.
It would be interesting to compare Khan's Shipyards proposal with that of Jeff Vinik's for the Channelside area in Tampa
Any city financing requirements for Healthy Town? Has that project gotten to that point yet? Presentation looks great. Time will tell if there's enough of a residential market for that location without doing something with the Jailhouse complex.
these images are all over the twitter. mission accomplished.
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on February 17, 2015, 02:16:29 PM
Beautiful imagery, but nothing more than an exercise in graphic design until there's financial data. Anything done on financial feasibility? City commitment, ownership consortium commitment, bank debt commitments? Hard to get very excited about this without a discussion on numbers and timelines, especially in light of past failures on this property. Oh well, I suppose the media buzz about downtown's potential is probably worth something down the road.
When Shad Khan was 13 years old in Pakistan, he decided he wanted to go to a boyscout jamboree in Athens. Without a car, map, or anywhere to stay, he set out on the 4,500 mile trip. It took him a month, but he made it there on time.
When he was a teenager, he decided he wanted to go to college in America to earn an engineering degree. Several years later, he arrived at one of the top engineering schools in America, in a blinding snowstorm, without a place to stay. Starting out staying at the YMCA, he worked his way through school and earned his degree.
When he graduated, he got a job at Flex-N-Gate, where he designed a revolutionary seamless bumper for pickup trucks. When things went sour with Flex-N-Gate, they tried to sue Khan. Khan decided that he was going to represent himself and beat his former employer in court. Spending long nights at the library, Khan learned the ins and outs of every obscure case he could get his hands on. Eventually, he not only defeated Flex-N-Gate in court, but also bought his former employer outright.
When his business grew wildly successful, he decided that he wanted to buy an NFL team. Several years later, after things fell through with the Rams, he purchased the Jaguars from Wayne Weaver.
When Khan decided that he wanted the Jaguars to have the best game-day experience in the league, he decided that it would be great for Everbank Field to have the largest scoreboards in the world, along with party cabanas and swimming pools. A year later, the renovations were complete, and Everbank was one of the great places in the world to watch sports.
Now, Khan – a man with billions in the bank -- has decided that he wants to develop the Shipyards and turn the property into a world-class development for locals and visitors alike. I'd be very careful to bet against him.
Stephanie Brown from WoKV is adding alot of info/comments from Shad on her twitter feed. Very interesting.
It seems so out of context with the rest of the city... What happened to Maxwell house? Reminds a bit of a Mooneyhan production... just sayin...
Looks nice. I reserve judgement until I see the price tag.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 17, 2015, 02:45:06 PM
It seems so out of context with the rest of the city... What happened to Maxwell house? Reminds a bit of a Mooneyhan production... just sayin...
The "Mooneyhan Studios" thing was like a Sim City creation from a guy who had one movie to his credit.
The Shipyards proposal is from a guy worth 4.5 billion dollars.
Quote from: edjax on February 17, 2015, 02:41:28 PM
Stephanie Brown from WoKV is adding alot of info/comments from Shad on her twitter feed. Very interesting.
Interesting.
Khan emphasized that this needs to be completed in one phase, rather than piecemeal.
He also took a lot of inspiration from the Sydney Opera House.
Quote from: pierre on February 17, 2015, 02:52:32 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 17, 2015, 02:45:06 PM
It seems so out of context with the rest of the city... What happened to Maxwell house? Reminds a bit of a Mooneyhan production... just sayin...
The "Mooneyhan Studios" thing was like a Sim City creation from a guy who had one movie to his credit.
The Shipyards proposal is from a guy worth 4.5 billion dollars.
Quit with the facts.
Wanting to hear about the financial dimension of this huge announcement isn't really "betting against" anyone...it's prudence. I sincerely doubt there isn't a major city stake in this proposal, above and beyond environmental clean-up, but we'll see at the DIA meeting next week (I think). At the moment, without the numbers, let's just call this what it is, a beautiful dream and compelling presentation.
Now this is a $.01 sales tax increase I could get behind. 1/2 cent for the pension and 1/2 cent for this development. Better Jacksonville Plan, version 2.0!
I'm not worried about the price tag. Khan knows the city has no money. He knows it's all on him. Anyone still think the city shouldn't give him the land for a song? Imagine the future tax revenue.
let's get a shovel in the ground now!
Honestly, the biggest difference between Vinik and Shad is that Shad is a lot richer of a man. He is top 10 in richest owners in all of professional sports. If he really is buying into Jacksonville, this would be the single biggest thing to happen to Jax since the Jaguars actually arriving and probably Ed Ball and the DuPont Fortune before that.
I do like that he now lists his permanent address in Naples, FL, instead of up north.
Quote from: For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A on February 17, 2015, 04:11:43 PM
Honestly, the biggest difference between Vinik and Shad is that Shad is a lot richer of a man.
maybe so, but Vinik's $1 Billion Channelside project has the financial backing of Cascade Investment, LLC...the personal investment fund of some guy named Bill Gates.
At the risk of sounding like a negative nancy, ugh, where to begin?!?
1) Docks for boats smaller than 300 ft long are not protected in any way from channel wakes, so the setup for the docks is a bit unrealistic
2) Too many palm trees
3) I know just placeholders, but if these are to be just placeholders, I'd rather see conceptual massing alone, and NUMBERS, more of an official plan. Not a Microsoft Paint render of some stuff thrown together.
4) There is some sort of disconnect, a major one, between what's graphically shown in the renderings, and the actual size/layout of the piers in place (not even considering their structural integrity)
5) Do I see rendered wood all over the place as a floor material for riverwalks/piers? Have we not learned our lesson?
6) WTF, a hot air balloon poorly rendered in Paint on one of the slides? Really?
7) The architecture - again, I know just a placeholder, but this architecture doesn't even attempt to communicate at all to the history and aesthetics of Jacksonville. It's very blase, yes, so that's a strike but forgiveable for the fact that I'm ASSUMING this is all a placeholder, but it's not even a blase that works for Jax.
8 ) The Naval ship is going to just hang off of one of the piers into the channel current? Someone DID NOT think that through at all.
9) Is it just me or is one of the slides completely lifted from the design of the Miami Central Station with some additions of glass and a color scheme switcharoo? Namely, the slide below the one where the Naval ship is precariously hanging on by a thread to the end of one of these piers. Last slide on Pg 2
10) The 2nd slide on Pg 3 - wtf. Seriously, wtf. "Play" is the theme. But play on what? An area of wooden boards and a pointless unattractive riverwalk feature that inclines up in the middle like a bridge? The whole thing seems pointless. "Boardwalk Bridge" is its label on next slide. And here we go with the wood again!
11) Offices that don't appear to be structurally possible as rendered given what's there now, WITH A FOOTBALL FIELD ON TOP.
11a) First of all, that football field is comfortably on top. How F'ing big are these floorplates here? Nobody on this team has studied real estate, let alone the Jax market. For everyone's reference, a football field is 51,200 sf. An avg tower floorplate size is 15-25k sf and an avg suburban building floorplate might be 25-35k sf. You don't want your whole building taken up by hallways and common space, so you design for efficiency - either floorplates that are easily subdividable (like a basic square of ~20k sf) or you design for single-tenant floorplates, knowing that there is a market for such.
This building has to be 120k-150k sf floorplates in an impossibly inefficient shape/design. I could write an essay on how bad it appears to be. Maybe some posters in the local real estate market, namely some office brokers or investment sales associates who follow this board can comment. It just seems....offensive to my eyes. This isn't SF or NYC where a tech tenant might take the whole darn thing, or easily and happily fill 100+k sf floorplates.
11b) Football on a roof 100 ft up above the public - yea that's realistic. Why render it if you can't do it? Is it a joke?
12) OH WAIT, nvm, that was RETAIL/MIXED-USE?!?!?!?!?!?! Even worse, wtf is that!! I've gotta stop now.
13) The little awkward pudgy things my eyes couldn't quite understand at first are the "office" buildings poking up outa the top where people are supposedly going to play football and not kick any balls off the roof of that 100 ft high building onto people below.
14) More football fields rendered. I guess that's what we can expect from the owner of a football team. But wow. Did Khan take a break from owning a team and render all this himself? It wouldn't surprise me.
Guys, this is NOT a serious proposal. Hold out for better. Something slow and organic, piecemeal, lot by lot, would be better than this master-planned atrocity that won't get built anyway. The very very first proposal for the site more than a decade ago was far superior, and more thought out, rendered appropriately, and well put together, despite the "missing" money and the lack of a market for such a large deal (not that there's a market for it now, either).
This is offensively bad. I put it on the same level, or maybe even below, that 1,000 ft observation tower proposal. THAT was more realistic than this.
Quote from: For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A on February 17, 2015, 04:11:43 PM
Honestly, the biggest difference between Vinik and Shad is that Shad is a lot richer of a man. He is top 10 in richest owners in all of professional sports.
And getting richer every day. His company generates an insane amount of cash flow for its ONLY SHAREHOLDER.
damn, Simms blew that up.
Simms = truth
Quote from: goldy21 on February 17, 2015, 04:50:38 PM
Simms = truth
Well, the dream was fun while it lasted. Perhaps in 20-30 years something might actually become of that space.
Meh Simms has spent years here saying the problem with Jax is no rich people with big ideas now he wants to poo poo that too.
Much respect for Simms but more for Khan.
Quote from: simms3 on February 17, 2015, 04:32:00 PM
Going to comment on a few things in line...
1) Docks for boats smaller than 300 ft long are not protected in any way from channel wakes, so the setup for the docks is a bit unrealisticThey could slow the area down like they do near the main street bridge.2) Too many palm treesExactly what I said in my post:)4) There is some sort of disconnect, a major one, between what's graphically shown in the renderings, and the actual size/layout of the piers in place (not even considering their structural integrity)I'm not an architect so I can't comment on the structural integrity5) Do I see rendered wood all over the place as a floor material for riverwalks/piers? Have we not learned our lesson?You do or don't, who can say? It might be composite, which would be perfectly fine.6) WTF, a hot air balloon poorly rendered in Paint on one of the slides? Really?Why do you hate paint so much?:)7) The architecture - again, I know just a placeholder, but this architecture doesn't even attempt to communicate at all to the history and aesthetics of Jacksonville. It's very blase, yes, so that's a strike but forgiveable for the fact that I'm ASSUMING this is all a placeholder, but it's not even a blase that works for Jax.Like you said, just a placeholder8 ) The Naval ship is going to just hang off of one of the piers into the channel current? Someone DID NOT think that through at all.Works just fine for the USS Alabama in Mobile.9) Is it just me or is one of the slides completely lifted from the design of the Miami Central Station with some additions of glass and a color scheme switcharoo? Namely, the slide below the one where the Naval ship is precariously hanging on by a thread to the end of one of these piers. Last slide on Pg 2
10) The 2nd slide on Pg 3 - wtf. Seriously, wtf. "Play" is the theme. But play on what? An area of wooden boards and a pointless unattractive riverwalk feature that inclines up in the middle like a bridge? The whole thing seems pointless. "Boardwalk Bridge" is its label on next slide. And here we go with the wood again!Again, might not be wood. But there's nothing wrong with expanding the river walk with something like this. Great photo op for downtown too.11) Offices that don't appear to be structurally possible as rendered given what's there now, WITH A FOOTBALL FIELD ON TOP.Really? We don't have the technology to put a field on top of buildings? We can put buildings on top of parking garages, I think a field would be just fine.13) The little awkward pudgy things my eyes couldn't quite understand at first are the "office" buildings poking up outa the top where people are supposedly going to play football and not kick any balls off the roof of that 100 ft high building onto people below.
14) More football fields rendered. I guess that's what we can expect from the owner of a football team. But wow. Did Khan take a break from owning a team and render all this himself? It wouldn't surprise me.Why so much hate for the football fields? Even if you're not a jaguar fan, they bring 50,000 downtown every weekend there's a game, you can't argue that. I like to think of these as Armada fields anyways :)
Quote from: Todd_Parker on February 17, 2015, 04:58:30 PM
Quote from: goldy21 on February 17, 2015, 04:50:38 PM
Simms = truth
Well, the dream was fun while it lasted. Perhaps in 20-30 years something might actually become of that space.
Populous is one of the largest architectural firms in the world, and they are responsible for some of the most iconic stadium designs of the last 50 years. Yankee Stadium. The O2 Arena. London's Olympic stadium. AT&T Park. Camden Yards. Our own baseball grounds, and the recent Everbank Field renovations. Their work has been featured at 31 consecutive Super Bowls, and numerous Olympics games.
These guys aren't using Microsoft Paint.
So Simms first name is Nancy. I kinda thought so all along. M'lady has spoken so time to stop with the enthusiasm.
Quote from: JeffreyS on February 17, 2015, 05:02:52 PM
Meh Simms has spent years here saying the problem with Jax is no rich people with big ideas now he wants to poo poo that too.
Much respect for Simms but more for Kahn.
Kahn is rich enough to hire a qualified team, renowned team even, to help him put together a proposal for the most important waterfront real estate in the entire city. He has enough money for legitimate, even world class architects (who I would hope should he decide to be serious and hire some, that he also hire a team of local architects to partner up). He has enough money for real estate consultants to guide him through the complexities of putting together and structuring a deal. He has enough money to hire other consultants to help him make sure that everything is realistic.
In my opinion, this is a slap in the face. He must think Jax citizens are dumb (and in fact, he may be right in that). Half of you guys salivated at this and ate it up! 90% of what is shown IS NOT POSSIBLE, or REALISTIC. He rendered a hot air balloon in paint and threw that in. He has football fields on top of buildings! Is this not a laughable joke of a proposal meant for some sort of PR, like he's "trying" to get stuff done in the city but it's just so tough. Meanwhile, what he HAS done is bought a cash cow that partially rests on the back of Jax taxpayers and received more taxpayer money that could have gone to other things and used it for jumbotrons.
Forgive me, I guess I HAVE been around billionaires enough to know that if an opportunity presents itself, they will take advantage, and right now Khan might be taking advantage of the people of Jacksonville in the guise of "helping the city". I mean, how much money has he spent on this non-serious proposal? He's laughing all the way to the bank! He KNOWS there is no money in doing something like this in Jacksonville - the market is not there and he can't just snap his finger and bring it. He's playing politics! He's "trying" to get something done, but "something" (a la the city or "market forces") will prevent him from actually building this. But he "tried"!
Puh-lease! I'm sure Khan's a great man - I know he is. But he's an even better businessman!
Quote from: KenFSU on February 17, 2015, 05:13:04 PM
Quote from: Todd_Parker on February 17, 2015, 04:58:30 PM
Quote from: goldy21 on February 17, 2015, 04:50:38 PM
Simms = truth
Well, the dream was fun while it lasted. Perhaps in 20-30 years something might actually become of that space.
Populous is one of the largest architectural firms in the world, and they are responsible for some of the most iconic stadium designs of the last 50 years. Yankee Stadium. The O2 Arena. London's Olympic stadium. AT&T Park. Camden Yards. Our own baseball grounds, and the recent Everbank Field renovations. Their work has been featured at 31 consecutive Super Bowls, and numerous Olympics games.
These guys aren't using Microsoft Paint.
Wow - well Khan told Populous pencils down then - or he got some junior associate to draft this in a day. I've seen Populous renderings, and I see renderings every day of my life. These are up there with the worst I've seen.
I was under the impression the rendering would include an indoor practice facility for team. Could that be what the design plan would have taking up the majority of the space in the large buildings with the football field on top?
Quote from: dp8541 on February 17, 2015, 05:19:49 PM
I was under the impression the rendering would include an indoor practice facility for team. Could that be what the design plan would have taking up the majority of the space in the large buildings with the football field on top?
You would be correct
I like it and hope it gets done. That's all you can do for now. The negative Nacy's can take their sister Debbie Downer out to lunch and dont come back.
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on February 17, 2015, 05:22:14 PM
I like it and hope it gets done. That's all you can do for now. The negative Nacy's can take their sister Debbie Downer out to lunch and dont come back.
But have you seen the hot air balloon????
Quote from: coredumped on February 17, 2015, 05:08:23 PM
Quote from: simms3 on February 17, 2015, 04:32:00 PM
Going to comment on a few things in line...
1) Docks for boats smaller than 300 ft long are not protected in any way from channel wakes, so the setup for the docks is a bit unrealistic
They could slow the area down like they do near the main street bridge.
2) Too many palm trees
Exactly what I said in my post:)
4) There is some sort of disconnect, a major one, between what's graphically shown in the renderings, and the actual size/layout of the piers in place (not even considering their structural integrity)
I'm not an architect so I can't comment on the structural integrity
5) Do I see rendered wood all over the place as a floor material for riverwalks/piers? Have we not learned our lesson?
You do or don't, who can say? It might be composite, which would be perfectly fine.
6) WTF, a hot air balloon poorly rendered in Paint on one of the slides? Really?
Why do you hate paint so much?:)
7) The architecture - again, I know just a placeholder, but this architecture doesn't even attempt to communicate at all to the history and aesthetics of Jacksonville. It's very blase, yes, so that's a strike but forgiveable for the fact that I'm ASSUMING this is all a placeholder, but it's not even a blase that works for Jax.
Like you said, just a placeholder
8 ) The Naval ship is going to just hang off of one of the piers into the channel current? Someone DID NOT think that through at all.
Works just fine for the USS Alabama in Mobile.
9) Is it just me or is one of the slides completely lifted from the design of the Miami Central Station with some additions of glass and a color scheme switcharoo? Namely, the slide below the one where the Naval ship is precariously hanging on by a thread to the end of one of these piers. Last slide on Pg 2
10) The 2nd slide on Pg 3 - wtf. Seriously, wtf. "Play" is the theme. But play on what? An area of wooden boards and a pointless unattractive riverwalk feature that inclines up in the middle like a bridge? The whole thing seems pointless. "Boardwalk Bridge" is its label on next slide. And here we go with the wood again!
Again, might not be wood. But there's nothing wrong with expanding the river walk with something like this. Great photo op for downtown too.
11) Offices that don't appear to be structurally possible as rendered given what's there now, WITH A FOOTBALL FIELD ON TOP.
Really? We don't have the technology to put a field on top of buildings? We can put buildings on top of parking garages, I think a field would be just fine.
13) The little awkward pudgy things my eyes couldn't quite understand at first are the "office" buildings poking up outa the top where people are supposedly going to play football and not kick any balls off the roof of that 100 ft high building onto people below.
14) More football fields rendered. I guess that's what we can expect from the owner of a football team. But wow. Did Khan take a break from owning a team and render all this himself? It wouldn't surprise me.
Why so much hate for the football fields? Even if you're not a jaguar fan, they bring 50,000 downtown every weekend there's a game, you can't argue that. I like to think of these as Armada fields anyways :)
What's wrong with football fields in a mixed-use office/retail/hotel development? What's wrong with football fields on the ROOF of a building 100 ft up over an area with pedestrians walking around who could get hit by a ball should it fly off? What are they going to put nets all around the tops of these buildings? You can't be serious with these questions. And then putting office space on top of that weird MASSIVE "mixed-use"/retail building so their view is of a football field, on top of a building? Better spare no expense on the glass, either.
Let me provide you guys an example of a similar "massive" mixed-use, long-term proposal for my city. Basically conceptual at this point, so really the Shipyards and my example are in similar stage. This is AT MINIMUM what I would like to see (scroll down for an imbedded presentation):
http://www.socketsite.com/archives/2014/11/stunning-new-5m-project-renderings-overview-context.html
Quote from: pierre on February 17, 2015, 05:20:45 PM
Quote from: dp8541 on February 17, 2015, 05:19:49 PM
I was under the impression the rendering would include an indoor practice facility for team. Could that be what the design plan would have taking up the majority of the space in the large buildings with the football field on top?
You would be correct
You guys might want to check with of' simmsy regarding the average floorplate required for an indoor practice field.
Quote from: JeffreyS on February 17, 2015, 05:02:52 PM
Meh Simms has spent years here saying the problem with Jax is no rich people with big ideas now he wants to poo poo that too.
Much respect for Simms but more for Khan.
I don't know Simms personally, i disagree but respect his views. However I disagree with everything stated in his last post. Everything. I have a problem with what I feel is a complete disrespect for the professionals, experts, designers, researchers etc who's months of handwork went into inspiring an idea. We understand that it is just that. An idea. But to think that this is all some pie in the sky pipe dream, to say that a football field and offices can't be built on top of a building, that a ship can't dock there, that wood-like material can't work outdoors, yadda yah is ridiculous. I have much more belief and respect for Khans team who spent upwards of a year and a half hands on in the trenches studying and preparing a plan..you know, the people "in the know" than outsider speculation. I mean, we are not building the floating mountains of Pandora..its just a freaking field on top of a building! Wait til they start putting gardens on roofs, and towers on garages..holy cow!
^^^"months" did not go into that, let alone a year and half that you say did. That's my point! Lake probably could have put that together by himself in a few days at most, more or less. Maybe a day if just going for massing. We have people in this site who came up with 90% of these ideas. We have people on this site who in their spare time have massed all of this out.
What Khan presented SUCKS so bad, I pulled my hair out when I saw it.
If I'm the only one who sees through this awful facade of a presentation, God help your city.
Quote from: simms3 on February 17, 2015, 05:25:47 PM
What's wrong with football fields in a mixed-use office/retail/hotel development? What's wrong with football fields on the ROOF of a building 100 ft up over an area with pedestrians walking around who could get hit by a ball should it fly off?
What about Marsha? What if she gets hit in the nose by one of those footballs the night before the big dance?
Quote from: Marle Brando on February 17, 2015, 05:29:27 PM
Quote from: JeffreyS on February 17, 2015, 05:02:52 PM
Meh Simms has spent years here saying the problem with Jax is no rich people with big ideas now he wants to poo poo that too.
Much respect for Simms but more for Khan.
I don't know Simms personally, i disagree but respect his views. However I disagree with everything stated in his last post. Everything. I have a problem with what I feel is a complete disrespect for the professionals, experts, designers, researchers etc who's months of handwork went into inspiring an idea. We understand that it is just that. An idea. But to think that this is all some pie in the sky pipe dream, to say that a football field and offices can't be built on top of a building, that a ship can't dock there, that wood-like material can't work outdoors, yadda yah is ridiculous. I have much more belief and respect for Khans team who spent upwards of a year and a half hands on in the trenches studying and preparing a plan..you know, the people "in the know" than outsider speculation. I mean, we are not building the floating mountains of Pandora..its just a freaking field on top of a building! Wait til they start putting gardens on roofs, and towers on garages..holy cow!
It's his schtick.
We appreciate your concern Simms for our city.
Quote from: edjax on February 17, 2015, 05:34:45 PM
It's his schtick.
No kidding.
I am a long time lurker on this site and it seems like that guy does nothing but troll the city of Jacksonville.
Quote from: simms3 on February 17, 2015, 05:25:47 PM
Let me provide you guys an example of a similar "massive" mixed-use, long-term proposal for my city. Basically conceptual at this point, so really the Shipyards and my example are in similar stage. This is AT MINIMUM what I would like to see (scroll down for an imbedded presentation):
http://www.socketsite.com/archives/2014/11/stunning-new-5m-project-renderings-overview-context.html
I checked out the embedded presentation and noticed a green space/park on top of a two-story building. What would prevent frisbees/footballs/lawn darts from being launched off the top of that building onto the street artists below?
Quote from: JAX on February 17, 2015, 05:35:55 PM
Quote from: edjax on February 17, 2015, 05:34:45 PM
It's his schtick.
No kidding.
I am a long time lurker on this site and it seems like that guy does nothing but troll the city of Jacksonville.
Some perspective to his viewpoints is required. While he does have some insight into the inner financial workings of development firms, he is also the same person that was afraid to ride the MARTA just a few years ago.
Quote from: Todd_Parker on February 17, 2015, 05:41:44 PM
I checked out the embedded presentation and noticed a green space/park on top of a two-story building. What would prevent frisbees/footballs/lawn darts from being launched off the top of that building onto the street artists below?
In a word: "access"
In 2 words: "public access"
I attack a presentation, and then get personally attacked for it. I would expect no less. And re: MARTA - I was a frequent rider, even after I was assaulted on it (to the point of broken nose, stitches, and broken cheek bone). re: public transit in general, I don't own a car. Let's not get it twisted. What does that personal attack on me regarding public transit have anything to do with this topic? Oh wait - nothing! Just some people angry at me for being right I suppose.
And re: "access" - public access to roof tops/open spaces of private buildings is actually a requirement in the City of San Francisco. There are caveats. Usually there is a form of security one must pass by or through (for instance, to get to the elevators). Nobody is bringing lawn darts and anything hard that can be thrown off and pose a public risk to a private building professionally managed by Forest City, the project sponsor.
You guys in Jacksonville have limited public access to private buildings and so maybe you aren't clear on how it works.
And also - it's one thing to provide open/greenspace with public access, taking measures to limit risk and prevent massice "debaucherous lawn parties". It's another thing to deliberately put football fields on top of buildings, for the purpose of playing football. LoL
Quote from: simms3 on February 17, 2015, 05:25:47 PM
Quote from: coredumped on February 17, 2015, 05:08:23 PM
Quote from: simms3 on February 17, 2015, 04:32:00 PM
Going to comment on a few things in line...
1) Docks for boats smaller than 300 ft long are not protected in any way from channel wakes, so the setup for the docks is a bit unrealistic
They could slow the area down like they do near the main street bridge.
2) Too many palm trees
Exactly what I said in my post:)
4) There is some sort of disconnect, a major one, between what's graphically shown in the renderings, and the actual size/layout of the piers in place (not even considering their structural integrity)
I'm not an architect so I can't comment on the structural integrity
5) Do I see rendered wood all over the place as a floor material for riverwalks/piers? Have we not learned our lesson?
You do or don't, who can say? It might be composite, which would be perfectly fine.
6) WTF, a hot air balloon poorly rendered in Paint on one of the slides? Really?
Why do you hate paint so much?:)
7) The architecture - again, I know just a placeholder, but this architecture doesn't even attempt to communicate at all to the history and aesthetics of Jacksonville. It's very blase, yes, so that's a strike but forgiveable for the fact that I'm ASSUMING this is all a placeholder, but it's not even a blase that works for Jax.
Like you said, just a placeholder
8 ) The Naval ship is going to just hang off of one of the piers into the channel current? Someone DID NOT think that through at all.
Works just fine for the USS Alabama in Mobile.
9) Is it just me or is one of the slides completely lifted from the design of the Miami Central Station with some additions of glass and a color scheme switcharoo? Namely, the slide below the one where the Naval ship is precariously hanging on by a thread to the end of one of these piers. Last slide on Pg 2
10) The 2nd slide on Pg 3 - wtf. Seriously, wtf. "Play" is the theme. But play on what? An area of wooden boards and a pointless unattractive riverwalk feature that inclines up in the middle like a bridge? The whole thing seems pointless. "Boardwalk Bridge" is its label on next slide. And here we go with the wood again!
Again, might not be wood. But there's nothing wrong with expanding the river walk with something like this. Great photo op for downtown too.
11) Offices that don't appear to be structurally possible as rendered given what's there now, WITH A FOOTBALL FIELD ON TOP.
Really? We don't have the technology to put a field on top of buildings? We can put buildings on top of parking garages, I think a field would be just fine.
13) The little awkward pudgy things my eyes couldn't quite understand at first are the "office" buildings poking up outa the top where people are supposedly going to play football and not kick any balls off the roof of that 100 ft high building onto people below.
14) More football fields rendered. I guess that's what we can expect from the owner of a football team. But wow. Did Khan take a break from owning a team and render all this himself? It wouldn't surprise me.
Why so much hate for the football fields? Even if you're not a jaguar fan, they bring 50,000 downtown every weekend there's a game, you can't argue that. I like to think of these as Armada fields anyways :)
What's wrong with football fields in a mixed-use office/retail/hotel development? What's wrong with football fields on the ROOF of a building 100 ft up over an area with pedestrians walking around who could get hit by a ball should it fly off? What are they going to put nets all around the tops of these buildings? You can't be serious with these questions. And then putting office space on top of that weird MASSIVE "mixed-use"/retail building so their view is of a football field, on top of a building? Better spare no expense on the glass, either.
Let me provide you guys an example of a similar "massive" mixed-use, long-term proposal for my city. Basically conceptual at this point, so really the Shipyards and my example are in similar stage. This is AT MINIMUM what I would like to see (scroll down for an imbedded presentation):
http://www.socketsite.com/archives/2014/11/stunning-new-5m-project-renderings-overview-context.html
Nice. No sarcasm, thats a very well integrated project into its surrounding urban fabric, pre-existing urban fabric i might add. But dude you're comparing Jacksonville to freaking San Fran! Your project and Khan's are in totally separate dynamics and you can't even begin to compare these two in size, scope, focus, demand, market etc. The architecture in your rendering is beautiful! The materials, shapes of the high-rises, and layout including green houses and public art plazas. However, I didn't see anything that differed in quality or wow factor in that, that Khan didn't deliver today.
1) The way they effectively extended the street grid out into the river focusing on the north/south vs. the eat/west was a win
2) Effectively minimizes views of the Jailhouse to proposed residents and offices
3) Creates something no other city has without a gimmicky wheel or over repeated observation tower
4) Use of low to mid rise structures creates more density+more businesses+more activity
5) Creates more convention space, meeting space, hotel space, and residents and retail downtown
6) Encourages development back into Bay St, A. Phillip Randolph corridor into Springfield due to its building off the existing grid
7) Jacksonville will have THE best sports entertainment corridor and game day experience around. Imagine the concerts, festivals, NCAA events, Bowl Games, Armada games, high school tournaments, etc that will be drawn to this iconic sports playground on the river.
8) The design itself is visually engaging and inviting rather than bold and imposing. No sharp points or bulging hulking scrapers, all smooth lines and natural influences play well of the adjacent river. It encourages activity along the river and Bay st. simultaneously.
9) This essentially gives Jacksonville a new convention center and amphitheater and accompanying high end signature hotel, possibly freeing up new uses for the Prime Obsborn and Metro Park and even the Jacksonville Landing.
10) My only issue are those FIREWORKS! How dare they paint fireworks into a rendering using paint..dont even get me started on that hot air balloon ::)
Not a personal attack simms, just some insight for those who haven't been afforded the awesomeness of living vicariously through you and your stops at a couple of metros that are always better than the last in your climb up the corporate ladder.
I, sir, am enthralled.
Pretty sure Lamping said the roof top field is on top of the indoor practice facility. Thats what the building is.
As for the presentation, safe to say this is probably a very small limited presentation that was a part of an overall state of an NFL franchise talk? I'd expect DIA to get much more info Monday.
If you can't find ONE, just one positive thing to say about the proposal then yes, id say your issue is personal. Nobody on this board is attacking you personally or your opinion. Its your choice of words and passion about all thats wrong that makes it feel that theres a personal issue with Khan, Jax, or something. And maybe thats why you feel as though you are being attacked Simms. No disrespect to you, I'm just a guy behind a keyboard, same as you are to me so our opinions are just opinions based off feelings towards an issue, not the person. I still live, work, breathe, sleep, play in downtown Jacksonville so forgive me for feeling a little more invested and a little more excited about the buzz and possibilities that may come to my neighborhood. I live on church st to be exact. Hows San Fran living, i don't know and won't pretend to because I'm not there. Im here. Right now. In downtown less than a mile from the site and Im cool with it. Hope it happens, because hope is what we got today.
Out of all the money and time exhausted by experts, Khan seemed to have hired the wrong one.
I understood the fields to also be flex space, which is essentially what convention space is. I mean if you close the indoor field is that not big enough to hold an auto show or home and patio convention. Its also surrounded by meeting rooms behind the glass levels.
But the devil is surely in the details and I guess i'll reserve any further excitement until next Tuesday.
The idea/concept of something occupying the shipyards and creating useful public and private space is fantastic. But I can't sit here and drool over it when it seems like less than a half-assed proposal. I'm not trying to compare concept to concept, merely presentation to presentation.
Some comments on this thread are that Kahn has hired a major architect. Khan has resources. Khan will get this done.
Well, from what I see, Khan hired a sports stadium architect for one, and two, the renderings provided are of low quality, so Khan has not spent a lot of money from what I can see, to date.
Also, Khan, the man himself, is no real estate man. No engineer. No architect. He does have the money to hire the best, though. It would appear he has not done so.
Finally, aside from buying a team, taking on taxpayer funds to build jumbotrons, and taking on the role of the "face of Jacksonville" and enjoying a dense spotlight/media attention all while "trying" to do this or that or proposing whatever, what HAS he done in the 3.5 years since arriving? Before we know it, he'll be at the halfway point of an average tenure of ownership stake in an NFL franchise.
And yes, my standards are pretty high in general and the standards of those I work for are quite literally impossibly high so I'm used to A LOT of pressure, so when I see this proposal by a billionaire man people literally seem to worship and it's for possibly the most important site in the entire city, and it looks not even halfway up to par and looks like nobody has a real concrete plan or sense of numbers, then YEA, I jump on the offensive.
You guys should have more pride in your city than to bend over and take it from anyone who comes around with some bacon in hand. Maybe from 2500 miles away I just have more pride and think the presentation can be 10x as good as it is in its current state, *especially* coming from the new god of Jacksonville. I'll keep my eyes open for whatever is presented on Monday.
Maybe the rooftop field will end up being surrounded by a wall similar to the one for the rooftop park at the San Fancisco Transbay Center.
He is in fact an engineer.
Quote from: edjax on February 17, 2015, 06:37:41 PM
Maybe the rooftop field will end up being surrounded by a wall similar to the one for the rooftop park at the San Fancisco Transbay Center.
Maybe (but it'd have to be a huge wall in this case because we are talking about a football field where footballs get kicked up into the air and where there are field goals). It's still a weird proposal. To think that he's going to have office turrets sticking up out of that mixed use/indoor practice field building labeled as "retail/mixed-use" with views out over a football field on a roof. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's "thinking outside the box" in a positive, contributory way, but it is weird.
QuoteI attack a presentation, and then get personally attacked for it. I would expect no less.
QuoteHe must think Jax citizens are dumb (and in fact, he may be right in that). Half of you guys salivated at this and ate it up!
^^^I'd say the kid gloves came off right about there...
Quote from: simms3 on February 17, 2015, 05:15:28 PM
He must think Jax citizens are dumb (and in fact, he may be right in that). Half of you guys salivated at this and ate it up! 90% of what is shown IS NOT POSSIBLE, or REALISTIC. He rendered a hot air balloon in paint and threw that in. He has football fields on top of buildings!
Roosevelt Stadium in Union City
(http://media.nj.com/jersey-journal/photo/333032-standard.jpg)
(http://images.maxpreps.com/site_images/editorial/article/5/7/5/57569e5d-d515-4f0d-b24f-0eacbd591bd2/d9e3a96c-4f17-e211-b4bb-002655e6c126_original.jpg)
Milwaukee soccer field
(http://www.go-raiders.com/sports/wsoc/2013-14/MSOE_Field_rotator.jpg)
Various soccer fields in Asia
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4045/4326034400_5143fef8d3.jpg)
(http://www.fresher.ru/manager_content/images2/12-samyx-potryasayushhix-krysh-mira/big/2.jpg)
I don't see how having a rooftop practice field is "impossible" when others are doing it. Care to fill us in? This is Khan, he always goes for glitz, glamor & things you don't normally see. I seriously doubt he would blow smoke up everyone's asses if it wasn't possible.
If he wants one, he'll make it happen. It seems to be the way he rolls.
^^^I guess proven wrong. Your Asian examples are much better for your argument than your American examples, though. And of course he'll make one happen if he wants. But if he has the money to put football fields on buildings on the riverfront, one would think he'd have the money for better renderings and more of a plan so we know kinda sorta how he's going to do this and what it may look like??
Quote from: simms3 on February 17, 2015, 06:29:23 PM
The idea/concept of something occupying the shipyards and creating useful public and private space is fantastic. But I can't sit here and drool over it when it seems like less than a half-assed proposal. I'm not trying to compare concept to concept, merely presentation to presentation.
Some comments on this thread are that Kahn has hired a major architect. Khan has resources. Khan will get this done.
Well, from what I see, Khan hired a sports stadium architect for one, and two, the renderings provided are of low quality, so Khan has not spent a lot of money from what I can see, to date.
Also, Khan, the man himself, is no real estate man. No engineer. No architect. He does have the money to hire the best, though. It would appear he has not done so.
Finally, aside from buying a team, taking on taxpayer funds to build jumbotrons, and taking on the role of the "face of Jacksonville" and enjoying a dense spotlight/media attention all while "trying" to do this or that or proposing whatever, what HAS he done in the 3.5 years since arriving? Before we know it, he'll be at the halfway point of an average tenure of ownership stake in an NFL franchise.
And yes, my standards are pretty high in general and the standards of those I work for are quite literally impossibly high so I'm used to A LOT of pressure, so when I see this proposal by a billionaire man people literally seem to worship and it's for possibly the most important site in the entire city, and it looks not even halfway up to par and looks like nobody has a real concrete plan or sense of numbers, then YEA, I jump on the offensive.
You guys should have more pride in your city than to bend over and take it from anyone who comes around with some bacon in hand. Maybe from 2500 miles away I just have more pride and think the presentation can be 10x as good as it is in its current state, *especially* coming from the new god of Jacksonville. I'll keep my eyes open for whatever is presented on Monday.
I believe your comment about the average owner in the NFL being 8 years is also incorrect. There are currently only 10 owners who have owned their team for less than 8 years. 5 of them are new owners as the heirs to the original owner whom passed away so in reality owned by same family for many years. The other 2 are here where prior owner who owned team for 17 years and in Buffalo where current owners replaced Wilson who owned the team for approximately 50 years.
^^^I never quoted 8 years. Just said the halfway mark for current average will be here before we know it. There are outliers who have owned their teams for many decades. But the NFL as a business model has changed and evolved in the past 1-2 decades, and particularly in the past 5 years. To see ~10 year cycles for most teams going forward would not be surprising at all. This is more and more about seasoned business owners like Khan harvesting a bit of value in a stable, backed/sponsored operating business (and thus contributing to the sponsor, the NFL) than it is old families holding onto their legacy.
Quote from: simms3 on February 17, 2015, 04:32:00 PM
At the risk of sounding like a negative nancy, ugh, where to begin?!?
1) Docks for boats smaller than 300 ft long are not protected in any way from channel wakes, so the setup for the docks is a bit unrealistic
2) Too many palm trees
3) I know just placeholders, but if these are to be just placeholders, I'd rather see conceptual massing alone, and NUMBERS, more of an official plan. Not a Microsoft Paint render of some stuff thrown together.
It will be interesting to see what the numbers actually are. For anyone who listened to the announcement, did they mention any?
Quote4) There is some sort of disconnect, a major one, between what's graphically shown in the renderings, and the actual size/layout of the piers in place (not even considering their structural integrity)
It appears that the two westernmost piers would have to be removed and much of the waterfront filled in for this plan to happen.
Quote5) Do I see rendered wood all over the place as a floor material for riverwalks/piers? Have we not learned our lesson?
6) WTF, a hot air balloon poorly rendered in Paint on one of the slides? Really?
7) The architecture - again, I know just a placeholder, but this architecture doesn't even attempt to communicate at all to the history and aesthetics of Jacksonville. It's very blase, yes, so that's a strike but forgiveable for the fact that I'm ASSUMING this is all a placeholder, but it's not even a blase that works for Jax.
8 ) The Naval ship is going to just hang off of one of the piers into the channel current? Someone DID NOT think that through at all.
Looking at the renderings and an aerial of the existing site, the ship appears doesn't appear to hanging into the channel current.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3883790010_tFCTjGs-L.jpg)
Quote9) Is it just me or is one of the slides completely lifted from the design of the Miami Central Station with some additions of glass and a color scheme switcharoo? Namely, the slide below the one where the Naval ship is precariously hanging on by a thread to the end of one of these piers. Last slide on Pg 2
Miami AAF
(http://mediaassets.tcpalm.com/photo/2014/07/17/AAF_MIA_052314_NORTH_6867753_ver1.0_640_480.jpg)
Khan's Shipyards
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3883790221_VtnNC9B-L.jpg)
Quote10) The 2nd slide on Pg 3 - wtf. Seriously, wtf. "Play" is the theme. But play on what? An area of wooden boards and a pointless unattractive riverwalk feature that inclines up in the middle like a bridge? The whole thing seems pointless. "Boardwalk Bridge" is its label on next slide. And here we go with the wood again!
11) Offices that don't appear to be structurally possible as rendered given what's there now, WITH A FOOTBALL FIELD ON TOP.
11a) First of all, that football field is comfortably on top. How F'ing big are these floorplates here? Nobody on this team has studied real estate, let alone the Jax market. For everyone's reference, a football field is 51,200 sf. An avg tower floorplate size is 15-25k sf and an avg suburban building floorplate might be 25-35k sf. You don't want your whole building taken up by hallways and common space, so you design for efficiency - either floorplates that are easily subdividable (like a basic square of ~20k sf) or you design for single-tenant floorplates, knowing that there is a market for such.
This building has to be 120k-150k sf floorplates in an impossibly inefficient shape/design. I could write an essay on how bad it appears to be. Maybe some posters in the local real estate market, namely some office brokers or investment sales associates who follow this board can comment. It just seems....offensive to my eyes. This isn't SF or NYC where a tech tenant might take the whole darn thing, or easily and happily fill 100+k sf floorplates.
11b) Football on a roof 100 ft up above the public - yea that's realistic. Why render it if you can't do it? Is it a joke?
12) OH WAIT, nvm, that was RETAIL/MIXED-USE?!?!?!?!?!?! Even worse, wtf is that!! I've gotta stop now.
I think it's a football field on the roof of an indoor practice facility and football field. With that said, I have questions about it too and will be looking forward to learning more about it.
Quote from: simms3 on February 17, 2015, 07:01:40 PM
^^^I never quoted 8 years. Just said the halfway mark for current average will be here before we know it. There are outliers who have owned their teams for many decades. But the NFL as a business model has changed and evolved in the past 1-2 decades, and particularly in the past 5 years. To see ~10 year cycles for most teams going forward would not be surprising at all. This is more and more about seasoned business owners like Khan harvesting a bit of value in a stable, backed/sponsored operating business (and thus contributing to the sponsor, the NFL) than it is old families holding onto their legacy.
Oh the semantics games now. You said he was at 3.5 years and nearing the half way point of NFL ownership. So I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you were alluding to 8 years. Now you change it to a recent change in the last decade but yet only 3 in the past decade have new owners that did not either replace a long term owner or now own due to inheritance of the team. And the 10 year cycle going forward would,not be a surprise? So now you are predicting the future. You just made that part up to try and make your argument. Made up things presented as facts. My guess happens alot. Just an observation.
Quote from: simms3 on February 17, 2015, 06:54:02 PM
^^^I guess proven wrong. Your Asian examples are much better for your argument than your American examples, though. And of course he'll make one happen if he wants. But if he has the money to put football fields on buildings on the riverfront, one would think he'd have the money for better renderings and more of a plan so we know kinda sorta how he's going to do this and what it may look like??
I too would've liked to have seen better renderings, like what the obvious walls or guards they would need on a field like that over an urban area. And I also mentioned in another thread how there were no safety railings whatsoever on basically anything preventing someone from falling to their deaths all over the place. But then again, I take it with a grain of salt & realize this is a rough rendering. That stuff will get worked out.
Quote from: edjax on February 17, 2015, 07:09:36 PM
Quote from: simms3 on February 17, 2015, 07:01:40 PM
^^^I never quoted 8 years. Just said the halfway mark for current average will be here before we know it. There are outliers who have owned their teams for many decades. But the NFL as a business model has changed and evolved in the past 1-2 decades, and particularly in the past 5 years. To see ~10 year cycles for most teams going forward would not be surprising at all. This is more and more about seasoned business owners like Khan harvesting a bit of value in a stable, backed/sponsored operating business (and thus contributing to the sponsor, the NFL) than it is old families holding onto their legacy.
Oh the semantics games now. You said he was at 3.5 years and nearing the half way point of NFL ownership. So I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you were alluding to 8 years. Now you change it to a recent change in the last decade but yet only 3 in the past decade have new owners that did not either replace a long term owner or now own due to inheritance of the team. And the 10 year cycle going forward would,not be a surprise? So now you are predicting the future. You just made that part up to try and make your argument. Made up things presented as facts. My guess happens alot. Just an observation.
There really are no semantics. You are the one who made assumptions and filled in numbers. Literally all I said is that the guy has been in Jax 3.5 years already and will be at the average tenure ownership part before we know it. This is a 10+ year development proposal, in most cases, especially for a city of Jacksonville's size and stature. So that implies he'll certainly be around in 10+ years, or at least transitioned from Jaguars to real estate venture, in Jacksonville. Big bet, long term bet, on small city. From a guy not originally from Jax, and only having been in Jax for 3.5 years through ownership of an NFL team.
You can pick around however you like.
Quote from: simms3 on February 17, 2015, 07:25:15 PM
Quote from: edjax on February 17, 2015, 07:09:36 PM
Quote from: simms3 on February 17, 2015, 07:01:40 PM
^^^I never quoted 8 years. Just said the halfway mark for current average will be here before we know it. There are outliers who have owned their teams for many decades. But the NFL as a business model has changed and evolved in the past 1-2 decades, and particularly in the past 5 years. To see ~10 year cycles for most teams going forward would not be surprising at all. This is more and more about seasoned business owners like Khan harvesting a bit of value in a stable, backed/sponsored operating business (and thus contributing to the sponsor, the NFL) than it is old families holding onto their legacy.
Oh the semantics games now. You said he was at 3.5 years and nearing the half way point of NFL ownership. So I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you were alluding to 8 years. Now you change it to a recent change in the last decade but yet only 3 in the past decade have new owners that did not either replace a long term owner or now own due to inheritance of the team. And the 10 year cycle going forward would,not be a surprise? So now you are predicting the future. You just made that part up to try and make your argument. Made up things presented as facts. My guess happens alot. Just an observation.
There really are no semantics. You are the one who made assumptions and filled in numbers. Literally all I said is that the guy has been in Jax 3.5 years already and will be at the average tenure ownership part before we know it. This is a 10+ year development proposal, in most cases, especially for a city of Jacksonville's size and stature. So that implies he'll certainly be around in 10+ years, or at least transitioned from Jaguars to real estate venture, in Jacksonville. Big bet, long term bet, on small city. From a guy not originally from Jax, and only having been in Jax for 3.5 years through ownership of an NFL team.
You can pick around however you like.
Nah, you just threw something out there as fact that was not accurate. My guess is football/sports is not your area of expertise. No biggie.
I concede when I'm proven wrong (see above re: football fields on buildings). I threw out a vague comment at best that you attached specific numbers to (oddly, as if you are just scrapping to be able to prove me wrong or catch me in something, which seems a bit stalkerish), and so you filled in some blanks that were hardly blanks and then you say you proved me wrong in something. What exactly?
Football/sports is by far not my expertise, nor my interest. Underwriting an EBITDA stream and understanding basic fundamentals of finance is. Where's your expertise in any of this? Is it real estate or finance? Is it "sports/football"? Or is it none of the above?
I keep most of my comments pretty high level and off the cuff for a reason. You're the nit here looking desperate for some sort of intense granular debate.
Quote from: simms3 on February 17, 2015, 07:39:55 PM
I concede when I'm proven wrong (see above re: football fields on buildings). I threw out a vague comment at best that you attached specific numbers to (oddly, as if you are just scrapping to be able to prove me wrong or catch me in something, which seems a bit stalkerish), and so you filled in some blanks that were hardly blanks and then you say you proved me wrong in something. What exactly?
Football/sports is by far not my expertise, nor my interest. Underwriting an EBITDA stream and understanding basic fundamentals of finance is. Where's your expertise in any of this? Is it real estate or finance? Is it "sports/football"? Or is it none of the above?
I keep most of my comments pretty high level and off the cuff for a reason. You're the nit here looking desperate for some sort of intense granular debate.
Calm down Nancy. My point is you threw out a comment as fact. You had no clue what the average ownership of an NFL team is. So now I just wonder what else you do this for. Nothing more than that. And no I am not an expert in these fields but I don't try to pass myself off as one either. Just because you are knowledgable of something doesn't mean your really all that good at the profession. Bottom line is your general attitude is the turn off to ME, so I personally tend to read your comments with a grain of salt. So enough of this back and forth. You can get back to simply providing your knowledgable expertise on this crappy proposal.
If anyone has only seen the two and a half minute Vimeo video, the full 20 minute presentation from today is well worth taking the time to watch:
http://www.jaguars.com/media-gallery/videos/State-of-the-Jaguars-Shipyards/041b43c7-acbf-48b5-b93a-79c7d238555f
My guess is once feasibility studies, market research and due diligence are performed, conceptual plans will change....
QuoteFeasibility studies, market research and due diligence by Iguana Investments and the city of Jacksonville will be conducted to determine the specific types of development that would be thrive long-term at the Shipyards.
Representatives from Iguana Investments will deliver a proposal to the Downtown Investment Authority next Monday.
Full article: http://www.news4jax.com/news/shad-khan-unveils-vision-for-shipyards-development/31315240
Quote from: thelakelander on February 17, 2015, 08:09:45 PM
My guess is once feasibility studies, market research and due diligence are performed, conceptual plans will change....
QuoteFeasibility studies, market research and due diligence by Iguana Investments and the city of Jacksonville will be conducted to determine the specific types of development that would be thrive long-term at the Shipyards.
Representatives from Iguana Investments will deliver a proposal to the Downtown Investment Authority next Monday.
Full article: http://www.news4jax.com/news/shad-khan-unveils-vision-for-shipyards-development/31315240
Agreed. Why even have a press release if it's all subject to change based on actual research?
Meh. I'll believe it when the shovels start to turn
Quote from: simms3 on February 17, 2015, 06:29:23 PM
Also, Khan, the man himself, is no real estate man. No engineer. No architect. He does have the money to hire the best, though. It would appear he has not done so.
He is an engineer.
This thread has been very interesting to say the least. Thanks to Simms usual 'Devil's Advocate' takes. I'm a Devil's Advocate guy myself, usually with a centralized/positive stance, rather than mostly everything is doomsday outside of Frisco like how Simms roll.
My main negative is the South Florida-ized styling of the proposal, mostly done with all of those freaking palm trees. There are other trees beside palms, which is the worst tree for shade BTW. I noticed in the proposal that it mentioned 'tropical weather' which isn't compatible with Jax. I understand that Khan lives in S Florida, but I rather see Jax emphasize on it's local influences rather than becoming "Anywhere South Florida". Also I have concerns about the ever present whining elderly crowd across the river (with the amphitheater and all). Otherwise this proposal is very stunning, and far as I'm concerned, lets get the shovels dug in already!!
After hearing the presentation, I'm a bit warmed up. I think the Populous rep sounded a little cliche/sound-bitey, however, the presentation had a few high notes and presented a little bit of a clearer resolution/alternative views.
But as was sort of my whole point of my original comment on this, most of this is not feasible or realistic as-is, particularly for Jacksonville (and some just doesn't look all that thought out, let alone fully baked). I would rather see change within the city to really open the Shipyards up to smaller scale development. I would rather massing studies and due diligence on highest/best use come first, THEN preliminary renderings that respond to what's actually possible.
The Giants, Warriors, and potentially the Raiders and/or A's all have similar scale developments proposed. These things, even in a hot city, albeit a highly politically charged one, take many many years to shake out. Like 10-20 years. This is the kind of project that benefits from taking on some sort of partnership between a large hedge fund and a large Chinese capital source in a large city, with a debt stack of several buckets and several layers of public/private financing. The kind of scale we're talking about for Jacksonville, and given Jacksonville's market AND absolute lack of city leadership to guide it through, are seemingly impossibly barriers.
And, what's still baffling me is that there is no questioning or push back. The only 2 types of comments I've seen (here or on that Jaguars.com or News4Jax) are: "focus on the Jaguars first" or "yes, build it, beautiful, perfect". Lack of any sort of meaningful/positive development in Jax over the prior decade is no excuse to allow for free reign or to fawn over what could be PR proposals. This is a shrewd man who if he were going to build something like that, he would ensure there is a large public financing component (some parties involved would likely require it...and Khan isn't leaving the Jaguars Top Co as a guarantor to a risky real estate development...this would be Khan personal balance sheet), so all of your paychecks are on the line here. Be more invested than "Yes! Wonderful!"
1) I also thought the hot-air balloon was pretty random.
2) I like the palm trees and riverwalk. There aren't enough palm trees in Jacksonville imo. This is Florida; it doesn't have to be South Florida for there to be a bunch of palm trees in one place.
3) I don't really like the architecture but I'm sure that can change.
4) I was hoping for a bigger landmark attraction than just the USS Adams (Ferris wheel, aquarium, etc.) but oh well. Maybe Metro Park will get one.
5) I wish the buildings were taller. Any mention on the number of units/square feet?
6) No mention of the Skyway? It seems like a no-brainer to try to connect it here now.
I didn't love the proposal, but it's nice to see someone do more than just talk.
Ennis, I have not kept up on this the way you have but I think I recall you once mentioning that the Shipyards is not something that is interfaced directly with downtown. This project sure looks flashy that much is true but something about it is uncomfortable to me. It is so not Jacksonville or N.E. Florida. I like exciting and dramatic projects and am thrilled that the Shipyards may be made viable but why must Jacksonville always get distracted by shiny objects? lol Just not particularly in love with this idea, it doesn't feel right as if it belongs with the other big failed projects in Dubai or China. But hey, at least it is a positive start after a dry period and years worth of empty promises. My first thoughts were about how this would interface with a downtown focused on the re-use of historic structures and my next thought was that palm trees are not shade trees and all of those open walkways are going to be some kinda hot in the summer. I hope Khan's people follow this site though because those doing the designing have no idea of how this is going to interface in a meaning full way with downtown to my view. Just my initial thoughts along with the realization that the taxpayers are going to be paying a major part of the tab regarding this vision. Khan leverages his money. I wonder what the actual working of a deal he has going might be? I can tell you his support of Alvin Brown means Brown in on the same page with Khan and whatever he proposes.
The News4Jax article states the aquarium is still planned for "somewhere off Bay Street." Unless they plan on working it into these renders, it sounds like they're gonna boot it from the riverfront.
Quote from: JeffreyS on February 17, 2015, 06:41:23 PM
He is in fact an engineer.
Quote from: copperfiend on February 17, 2015, 08:37:52 PM
Quote from: simms3 on February 17, 2015, 06:29:23 PM
Also, Khan, the man himself, is no real estate man. No engineer. No architect. He does have the money to hire the best, though. It would appear he has not done so.
He is an engineer.
Thanks, proven wrong again.
So then I guess he's willing to pay for the complex engineering required of the as-proposed project. Raised buildings over fill on soft sediment complete with tricky and strong currents. Adding more fill. Raised, curved cable-stayed bridges. It's grandiose. Hope he pulls it off! Just shoring up these piers will be expensive. The Warriors passed on doing an arena on a pier in SF partially because the costs to refurbish the pier, seismically retrofit, AND then build something on top came out $150-$200M. Adjust for Jax pricing and it's still an expensive endeavor that equates to a requirement for higher rents for office/apartments, higher rates for the hotel, higher condo pricing that needs to be achieved.
Once everything is diligenced out and potentially value-engineered to the bone, I sincerely hope everyone's dreams aren't totally deflated. Past Monday we may not see anything more on this for another couple of years.
Quote from: iMarvin on February 17, 2015, 08:54:49 PM
1) I also thought the hot-air balloon was pretty random.
2) I like the palm trees and riverwalk. There aren't enough palm trees in Jacksonville imo. This is Florida; it doesn't have to be South Florida for there to be a bunch of palm trees in one place.
3) I don't really like the architecture but I'm sure that can change.
4) I was hoping for a bigger landmark attraction than just the USS Adams (Ferris wheel, aquarium, etc.) but oh well. Maybe Metro Park will get one.
5) I wish the buildings were taller. Any mention on the number of units/square feet?
6) No mention of the Skyway? It seems like a no-brainer to try to connect it here now.
I didn't love the proposal, but it's nice to see someone do more than just talk.
I like this post!!! I also agree this is FLA and Jax could use a few more palms. The South Fla reference is pretty silly IMO, there's not enough palm trees in the world to make Jax look like South Fla. Its just a rendering/proposals people, some of you act like you are paying for it. This is good!! Lets hope it happens.
Quote from: Josh on February 17, 2015, 09:03:05 PM
The News4Jax article states the aquarium is still planned for "somewhere off Bay Street." Unless they plan on working it into these renders, it sounds like they're gonna boot it from the riverfront.
The aquarium isn't a real project. It's a heavily promoted dream that still needs millions in funding to get on the drawing board, secure property and actually be built. If it progresses to such a level, space can be found.
Quote from: simms3 on February 17, 2015, 09:04:06 PM
re anything other than the financing aspect of the project
(http://www.singleblackmale.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/stay-in-your-lane1.jpg)
I'm still sticking to what I said about the proposal having so much palms (which Core and Simms agreed with). We might cannot truly be transformed into "South Florida" but we will look like a wannabe stepsister suburb in South Florida which is worst. I still hated when they removed those beautiful oaks at the old library for stupid palm trees. I never said that the proposal shouldn't have ANY palms, just not 95 percent. So far the tally is 3-2 no palm overload. What do you other guys/gals think, too many palms or what??? Of course disagree with me like always MJ...
I like the palms!!
^^^Of course you do...(3-3 tally). Then the next person obligatorily will like all of the palms, and the palm landslide will begin since I advocated against them... :( :D
I've always heard palms are NOT native to Jax, which I've always believed, if you go out in the woods or drive through Osceola national forest you don't see any.
Can someone more knowledgeable comment on this?
No palms. OK, a few.
There are certain species of palms that are native to this area. They just aren't the ones shown in the presentation.
Scrub palmetto and sabal palms are native, I believe. A few other species can endure a North FL winter. The kinds of tropical palms rendered will not be the kinds of palms planted at this development, unless they budgeted for a potentially annual replanting.
I like palms and have insisted that my parents move out the beach so that when I "come home" to FL once a year, I can feel like I'm actually somewhere in FL. We can all dream.
Some palms = good. I think the rendering used landscaping as a placeholder as well, but I get annoyed when I see renders of North FL proposals complete with Royal Palms and Coconut Palms, etc, knowing it will never look like that. There is one particular segment of the rendering where there appears to be a palm tree planted every 2 feet. It seemed a bit over the top.
I love palm trees. I love the palm tree in my back yard, if it weren't for all of these Oak trees around my yard I'd plant more. I for one do not equate palm trees with South Florida. Do you equate oak trees with Savannah? If I did, I would definitely have an identity crisis - I'd be Rhett Butler in the front yard and Sonny Crockett in the back! Stop nick picking this thing to death. It's a vision, it's like a concept car or haute couture. From that vision will come the ready to wear, marketable and sellable designs. I am hoping that a lot of the vision stays intact.
I loved the hot air balloon concept as an attraction but not how it was rendered. When I visited Rome, there was a hot air balloon you could ride up 200 feet or so and look across the city. The balloon was tethered so you went up and came back down in the same spot. Great attraction!
I also like the bold design! While I think there is a place for the older architecture in the city, I do believe that introducing this architecture is no different than when the architecture of the 60's era (?) public library and the Barnett Tower (89-90?) was introduced. Not to mention the old Gulf Life building on the South bank.
But I am also in the camp of I'll believe it when I see the cranes go up. I'm still waiting on the dang Publix to be built in San Marco Square! ;)
To paraphrase Bruce Dikenson (Christopher Walken), "I gotta have more palm trees!"
^^^Generally, I equate live oaks with Savannah, Jax, NOLA, Charleston, AL - Steel Magnolias MS, Houston. Sort of that I-10 corridor up to coastal SC and down into Orlando a bit. I equate palm trees with S Florida and SoCal. But as someone who hasn't been "Floridian" for a long time, I like SoFL more and more. I can totally see why heading further south on I-95 where it's warmer and there are more palm trees, especially if you are from a northern climate, is appealing.
I do wish Jax didn't have such severe cold snaps in the winter so that more tropical plants could be planted. But seeing coconut or royal palms in a render knowing that's quite literally an impossibility turns me off to a degree. It just seems lazy...maybe it's because there aren't graphics for non-tropical palms for non-tropical places like Jax. Maybe it's because it's been proven that having tropical palms in your renderings is good for business, even if it's a gross mis-characterization. Would love to hear straight out of an architect's mouth - Lake?
Well the nice thing about global warming is we can probably have tropical plants in the landscape by the time it's built. Of course Jax maybe under water (literally) by then.
And I'm sure you meant the I-95 corridor not I-10. Remember odd number go North and South, even numbers East and West. :D
OMG I cant even!! You guys are right! Lets just leave that 50 acres as a contaminated parking lot that is used as a giant restroom for our DT vagrants!! Awesome plan Mr Kahn. Thank you for having the vision and the pockets to think differently than some of our esteemed citizens! I love this city so much and I always said if I had the money I would do great things for this city. Not so much any more because I know that whatever I proposed it would get dissected, ridiculed, picked apart until a billion dollar project turns into another unrealized potential game breaker.....................sound familiar??
Here's a nice overlay graphic, via Twitter:
https://pbs.twimg.com/tweet_video/B-EzHwQIMAI-AZr.mp4
Quote from: simms3 on February 17, 2015, 10:18:40 PM
^^^Generally, I equate live oaks with Savannah, Jax, NOLA, Charleston, AL - Steel Magnolias MS, Houston. Sort of that I-10 corridor up to coastal SC and down into Orlando a bit. I equate palm trees with S Florida and SoCal. But as someone who hasn't been "Floridian" for a long time, I like SoFL more and more. I can totally see why heading further south on I-95 where it's warmer and there are more palm trees, especially if you are from a northern climate, is appealing.
I do wish Jax didn't have such severe cold snaps in the winter so that more tropical plants could be planted. But seeing coconut or royal palms in a render knowing that's quite literally an impossibility turns me off to a degree. It just seems lazy...maybe it's because there aren't graphics for non-tropical palms for non-tropical places like Jax. Maybe it's because it's been proven that having tropical palms in your renderings is good for business, even if it's a gross mis-characterization. Would love to hear straight out of an architect's mouth - Lake?
^I personally prefer native landscaping and architecture based off the era we live in today using building materials that are available to us. As far as the conceptual rendering goes, I'm fine with it. It's obvious, it's developed the way it is to excite the public and local officials. I'm interested to see what the financial side of things are. However, I also believe what was shown today will be greatly modified once market analysis is completed. I'm also interested to learn more about the idea of finally doing something with Hogans Creek.
Quote from: KenFSU on February 17, 2015, 10:35:09 PM
Here's a nice overlay graphic, via Twitter:
https://pbs.twimg.com/tweet_video/B-EzHwQIMAI-AZr.mp4
Nice graphic. For whoever asked about the aquarium, it looks like Khan's plan penetrates the former Kids Kampus area of Metropolitan Park as well.
Quote from: Buforddawg on February 17, 2015, 10:30:35 PM
Well the nice thing about global warming is we can probably have tropical plants in the landscape by the time it's built. Of course Jax maybe under water (literally) by then.
And I'm sure you meant the I-95 corridor not I-10. Remember odd number go North and South, even numbers East and West. :D
No. I fully meant the I-10 corridor. Houston, Jax, NOLA, are the live oak cities on the 10-corridor. But perhaps I should have rephrased better, but I meant *separately* up through coastal SC.
Quote from: I-10east on February 17, 2015, 09:47:10 PM
^^^Of course you do...(3-3 tally). Then the next person obligatorily will like all of the palms, and the palm landslide will begin since I advocated against them... :( :D
LOL!!
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on February 17, 2015, 08:56:59 PM
Ennis, I have not kept up on this the way you have but I think I recall you once mentioning that the Shipyards is not something that is interfaced directly with downtown. This project sure looks flashy that much is true but something about it is uncomfortable to me. It is so not Jacksonville or N.E. Florida. I like exciting and dramatic projects and am thrilled that the Shipyards may be made viable but why must Jacksonville always get distracted by shiny objects? lol Just not particularly in love with this idea, it doesn't feel right as if it belongs with the other big failed projects in Dubai or China. But hey, at least it is a positive start after a dry period and years worth of empty promises. My first thoughts were about how this would interface with a downtown focused on the re-use of historic structures and my next thought was that palm trees are not shade trees and all of those open walkways are going to be some kinda hot in the summer. I hope Khan's people follow this site though because those doing the designing have no idea of how this is going to interface in a meaning full way with downtown to my view. Just my initial thoughts along with the realization that the taxpayers are going to be paying a major part of the tab regarding this vision. Khan leverages his money. I wonder what the actual working of a deal he has going might be? I can tell you his support of Alvin Brown means Brown in on the same page with Khan and whatever he proposes.
I'm not too concerned. To me, it's just a conceptual rendering. We've seen hundreds over the last decade. Most tend up being something totally different from what was displayed originally. Just look at the Southbank Riverwalk presentation. The riverwalk appears to be much wider in the concepts than what was actually built. I'll be interested in learning more about the actual financial details, development timeline, results of market analysis, etc.
Quote from: GatorShane on February 17, 2015, 10:34:15 PM
OMG I cant even!! You guys are right! Lets just leave that 50 acres as a contaminated parking lot that is used as a giant restroom for our DT vagrants!! Awesome plan Mr Kahn. Thank you for having the vision and the pockets to think differently than some of our esteemed citizens! I love this city so much and I always said if I had the money I would do great things for this city. Not so much any more because I know that whatever I proposed it would get dissected, ridiculed, picked apart until a billion dollar project turns into another unrealized potential game breaker.....................sound familiar??
You don't frequent development boards, do you. A *VERY* public/impactful project such as this needs to be publicly dissected. This project is nothing less than a spectacle for Jax. It's do or die. This project would literally be up for public vote in San Francisco. The public would vote yay or nay on whether they like it. Someone might put something on the ballot in conjunction with a Yes/No that forces a new direction for the site, in terms of use, height, open space, % affordable housing, etc.
Jax doesn't really put its projects through a rigorous test like some cities do, and we know how we all feel about the DRC and other organizations, so it's up to more or less informed citizens to put out their opinions whenever the other team makes a play - in this case the development team made a big play with PR, video, renderings, PR to all the news sites. Now it's up for the public to provide feedback.
And another thing - this isn't a single apartment building or suburban office building or hospital. This is a game changing site. Khan is a big boy and knows going in that he will expect vocal public feedback, opposing efforts, etc. If he's smart, he'll welcome all the feedback he can get. This will only be as successful as the market allows it to be, so it's got to play to that [small] market perfectly.
Part of the reason there are still successful and amazing developments going up in cities generally regarded as "world-class" here in America, and even other major cities such as Atlanta, is because there are smart firms that listen to the public, try to understand the public, and deliver what the public wants. But on the flip side, in these cities you have a very entrenched public that is acutely aware of EVERYTHING going on in their city and/or their neighborhood.
Part of Jacksonville's long term problem is a disconnect between public/private, public citizenry/public officials, public officials/private businesses. And a lot of people who just don't mind maintaining that status quo.
An absentee public citizenry in this process will not really help Khan, may result in something atrocious being built or misuse of tax dollars, etc.
There's my counter-argument to yours.
Saw comment from Marck Frisch that after the presentation they played the song "Dont Believe Me, Just Watch Me". And he stated that was certainly not by coincidence.
As Lake pointed out, today was more about nit-picking a presentation (which I just found a bit lax, that's all), not so much the vision itself.
I do hope that going forward, they provide real substance to each of their PR days/public deliverables. Like imma be real pissed if the next time we hear from them, nothing has really changed. Even if they just take it 1 step at a time and deliver some sort of timetable with details on the partnership(s) involved so we know who the players are and where the money may be coming from. Maybe they hone in on the indoor practice fields and decide to make that phase 1 - there better be better renderings out and an actual plan that lays it all out. I still fail to see the huge draw of having 2-3 extra practice fields, indoor or not. So I want to learn about how this will activate the site and how it can be rotated out for other convention type uses - what kinds of events would use the space? How much space are we talking - will this be an effective replacement of Prime Osborn? Will SMG manage? Who gets priority - Jaguars or $ making event - during practice? Details, details.
Anything less and ya'll will have to endure me for another day.
There's not enough space on the Shipyards site to fit a suitable replacement for the Prime Osborn and do some of the other things Khan's interested in.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 17, 2015, 08:09:45 PM
My guess is once feasibility studies, market research and due diligence are performed, conceptual plans will change....
QuoteFeasibility studies, market research and due diligence by Iguana Investments and the city of Jacksonville will be conducted to determine the specific types of development that would be thrive long-term at the Shipyards.
Representatives from Iguana Investments will deliver a proposal to the Downtown Investment Authority next Monday.
Full article: http://www.news4jax.com/news/shad-khan-unveils-vision-for-shipyards-development/31315240
Agreed. Unless Khan or COJ has a major corporate relocation/office move tied to the development (which isn't inconceivable), I'm just not sure the market is there. Isn't The Beacon Riverside struggling to sell? Not that they are comparable projects, but that should still give a general idea of the market for relatively expensive (for Jax) multi-family units.
Regarding Simms points about quality of the renderings/visuals...Khan/Jags may not be as dependent on financing as similar projects are, and therefore aren't trying to win over investors or financiers before submitting conceptuals for public consumption. He is simply trying to gain public favor to get the city to work with him (or win Brown an election). I'm sure his plans will be refined substantially IF he gets the go ahead from the city. Very few (if any people) get rich by blowing money. Why would he hire someone to create a final product for land he hasn't even acquired yet, and may not even be able to?
That said, IF/when the city does give Khan the land, particularly if they give him a deal on it (whether it be free land, environmental remediation, property tax abatements), they better tie them to specific, enforceable parameters. For instance, if he's given the land for free on the basis of the renderings, you make him deliver on whatever renderings he shows and what he promises to deliver. You don't let him acquire the land for free on the basis of the renderings, only to let him build stucco monstrosities down the road.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 17, 2015, 09:58:35 PM
There are certain species of palms that are native to this area. They just aren't the ones shown in the presentation.
Quote from: simms3 on February 17, 2015, 10:01:20 PM
Scrub palmetto and sabal palms are native, I believe. A few other species can endure a North FL winter. The kinds of tropical palms rendered will not be the kinds of palms planted at this development, unless they budgeted for a potentially annual replanting.
I like palms and have insisted that my parents move out the beach so that when I "come home" to FL once a year, I can feel like I'm actually somewhere in FL. We can all dream.
Some palms = good. I think the rendering used landscaping as a placeholder as well, but I get annoyed when I see renders of North FL proposals complete with Royal Palms and Coconut Palms, etc, knowing it will never look like that. There is one particular segment of the rendering where there appears to be a palm tree planted every 2 feet. It seemed a bit over the top.
Ahem.
There are eleven (http://lee.ifas.ufl.edu/Hort/GardenPubsAZ/Florida_Native_Palms.pdf) native palms. Five or six of them are natural and/or abundant in Jacksonville (and in some cases substantially farther north) and all but three or four are grown here (the Royal Palm is one that's grown here). Some palms that outsiders associate with Florida or South Florida, like the king palm, coconut tree and queen palm, are introduced species and some are actually invasive.
Several "live oaks" are also abundant here.
^^^I associate Royal Palms with S FL, not even SoCal. Where are there any in North FL? I think you and I are saying the same thing, but I can't tell from the way you wrote your post.
Seems to me that this thread has officially digressed into a palm tree debate - perhaps a new thread is warranted.
I will say though, that the good folks of South Carolina are going to be pretty pissed when they find out that palm trees don't grow there and carry no historical significance. Guess they'll need to change their state flag & license plates too; and those vinyl Palmetto Moon decals will need to be removed from every other car window. ;)
Quote from: simms3 on February 17, 2015, 11:36:29 PM
^^^I associate Royal Palms with S FL, not even SoCal. Where are there any in North FL? I think you and I are saying the same thing, but I can't tell from the way you wrote your post.
Royal palms can be grown here. My neighbors have some, and I have a youngish tree that may be one as well. What I'm saying is that most palms that are actually native to South Florida can also be found in Northeast Florida, and that several of the species that are really only found in the south - and that people associate with the "Gold Coast" - are actually invasive.
I doubt we disagree, just being particular about Florida plant life. I have no idea what kind of palms those renderings are supposed to have. I really wouldn't worry about it at the stage before they've even said where the money is going to come from.
Someone should go back to 1898 and ask these people why there are palm trees downtown ;)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-x2NY3nPpCyQ/VN-soH2hMaI/AAAAAAAAAlc/tN1L79D7YRc/s2048/4a24095u.jpg)
Altough I like the idea of bringing work, stay and play back into downtown.. it's missing something. It misses a iconic building/activitity/landmark. Something that puts Jax on the map or something that if you see it links you directly to Jax (Opera house, Statue of Liberty, Golden gate Bridge, Tower of London, Big Ben, Eiffel Tower, the space needle, etc etc )
I think you folks are getting too wrapped up in the landscaping. Yes palm trees provide less shade, but they have a deep root system. Just think of the maintainance after growing an oak tree close to a sidewalk? How about if it were to fall due to heavy winds? When they drop leaves, who will clean those up? Lots of cons to planting any shade tree in that area.
The engineer of the shipyards project is going to be on 1010xl at 8:30am
Quote from: simms3 on February 17, 2015, 10:59:33 PM
Quote from: GatorShane on February 17, 2015, 10:34:15 PM
OMG I cant even!! You guys are right! Lets just leave that 50 acres as a contaminated parking lot that is used as a giant restroom for our DT vagrants!! Awesome plan Mr Kahn. Thank you for having the vision and the pockets to think differently than some of our esteemed citizens! I love this city so much and I always said if I had the money I would do great things for this city. Not so much any more because I know that whatever I proposed it would get dissected, ridiculed, picked apart until a billion dollar project turns into another unrealized potential game breaker.....................sound familiar??
You don't frequent development boards, do you. A *VERY* public/impactful project such as this needs to be publicly dissected. This project is nothing less than a spectacle for Jax. It's do or die. This project would literally be up for public vote in San Francisco. The public would vote yay or nay on whether they like it. Someone might put something on the ballot in conjunction with a Yes/No that forces a new direction for the site, in terms of use, height, open space, % affordable housing, etc.
Jax doesn't really put its projects through a rigorous test like some cities do, and we know how we all feel about the DRC and other organizations, so it's up to more or less informed citizens to put out their opinions whenever the other team makes a play - in this case the development team made a big play with PR, video, renderings, PR to all the news sites. Now it's up for the public to provide feedback.
And another thing - this isn't a single apartment building or suburban office building or hospital. This is a game changing site. Khan is a big boy and knows going in that he will expect vocal public feedback, opposing efforts, etc. If he's smart, he'll welcome all the feedback he can get. This will only be as successful as the market allows it to be, so it's got to play to that [small] market perfectly.
Part of the reason there are still successful and amazing developments going up in cities generally regarded as "world-class" here in America, and even other major cities such as Atlanta, is because there are smart firms that listen to the public, try to understand the public, and deliver what the public wants. But on the flip side, in these cities you have a very entrenched public that is acutely aware of EVERYTHING going on in their city and/or their neighborhood.
Part of Jacksonville's long term problem is a disconnect between public/private, public citizenry/public officials, public officials/private businesses. And a lot of people who just don't mind maintaining that status quo.
An absentee public citizenry in this process will not really help Khan, may result in something atrocious being built or misuse of tax dollars, etc.
There's my counter-argument to yours.
simms3 you nail it. The last thing that is happening in Jax is Public input. Can't wait for the unveiling of the long anticipated Southbank Riverwalk just weeks away. Does anyone else feel sorry for the Baltimore guys that got kicked out of Jax 2014-412? No River pass for you. What is the position of the St. Johns Riverkeeper on this project?
Quote from: Pottsburg on February 18, 2015, 08:03:39 AM
The engineer of the shipyards project is going to be on 1010xl at 8:30am
Just tuned in. Appreciate the heads up.
Tuned in as well...since my DT commute is stop and go today.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on February 17, 2015, 08:56:59 PM
This project sure looks flashy that much is true but something about it is uncomfortable to me. It is so not Jacksonville or N.E. Florida.
You're right. It is so not Jacksonville. But is that a bad thing? You know what is so Jacksonville. The waterfront property that has been a vacant lot for 20 years.
If this is not a realistic project, why waste time and money putting together a presentation of something that would not be done. We have lots of those already. I would think it would be better to figure out up front what is feasible.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 18, 2015, 08:36:16 AM
Tuned in as well...since my DT commute is stop and go today.
I-95 looks real nice today...at least going southbound ;)
Quote from: Pottsburg on February 18, 2015, 08:03:39 AM
The engineer of the shipyards project is going to be on 1010xl at 8:30am
The Populous architect on 1010 said something along the lines (paraphrasing) of you gotta add destinations before adding mass transit. I totally agree!!!
Nice to know that they put this together over the holidays. Makes me think back to the SCAD request for the students to partner and come up with their vision for the Shipyards.
I didn't hear that - What I heard was a dedicated team of 15 from Populous spending several months after being approached a few years back - did I miss something?
So easy to trivialize.
I think there is plenty of reason for skepticism, but I will wait for the details expected next week before drawing any conclusions. One BIG fear I have is that the city will be so enthralled with this dream like project that more studied, and (IMO more do-able) projects like the Laura Trio/Barnett deal get pushed to the side. The city is strapped for money as it is, and what money that can be found will be need there as well.
JAX has a long history of looking for a silver bullet approach to revitalization, rather than going the tried and true route that other cities have done.
Quote from: Noone on February 18, 2015, 08:59:31 AM
Nice to know that they put this together over the holidays. Makes me think back to the SCAD request for the students to partner and come up with their vision for the Shipyards.
Put together over the holidays?
Quote from: simms3 on February 17, 2015, 04:32:00 PM
At the risk of sounding like a negative nancy, ugh, where to begin?!?
I don't think you are actually concerned with that.
Quote from: simms3 on February 17, 2015, 04:32:00 PM
3) I know just placeholders, but if these are to be just placeholders, I'd rather see conceptual massing alone, and NUMBERS, more of an official plan. Not a Microsoft Paint render of some stuff thrown together.
6) WTF, a hot air balloon poorly rendered in Paint on one of the slides? Really?
First off, what's with the Paint hate, man?
Second, if they did that presentation in Paint, the person that did it is Paint Rembrandt. A hot air balloon in Paint? C'mon!
Quote from: simms3 on February 17, 2015, 04:32:00 PM
history and aesthetics of Jacksonville.
Please elaborate
Quote from: simms3 on February 17, 2015, 04:32:00 PM
9) Is it just me or is one of the slides completely lifted from the design of the Miami Central Station with some additions of glass and a color scheme switcharoo? Namely, the slide below the one where the Naval ship is precariously hanging on by a thread to the end of one of these piers. Last slide on Pg 2
It's just you. Most people haven't looked at a design presentation for a project in Miami, nevermind compared the two for their similarity in slide design.
Quote from: KenFSU on February 17, 2015, 05:13:04 PM
Populous is one of the largest architectural firms in the world, and they are responsible for some of the most iconic stadium designs of the last 50 years. Yankee Stadium. The O2 Arena. London's Olympic stadium. AT&T Park. Camden Yards. Our own baseball grounds, and the recent Everbank Field renovations. Their work has been featured at 31 consecutive Super Bowls, and numerous Olympics games.
These guys aren't using Microsoft Paint.
The new Yankee Stadium is atrocious. Otherwise, I get and agree with what you're saying. And AT&T and Camden Yards are amazing.
Quote from: simms3 on February 17, 2015, 05:15:28 PM
He must think Jax citizens are dumb (and in fact, he may be right in that).
No argument there.
Quote from: simms3 on February 17, 2015, 05:15:28 PM
Forgive me, I guess I HAVE been around billionaires
Guys! Guys! Simms knows billionaires!! oooo
Quote from: thelakelander on February 17, 2015, 09:14:14 PM
Quote from: Josh on February 17, 2015, 09:03:05 PM
The News4Jax article states the aquarium is still planned for "somewhere off Bay Street." Unless they plan on working it into these renders, it sounds like they're gonna boot it from the riverfront.
The aquarium isn't a real project. It's a heavily promoted dream that still needs millions in funding to get on the drawing board, secure property and actually be built. If it progresses to such a level, space can be found.
Seriously, everybody that keeps bringing up the aquarium needs to chill. That's even more pie-in-the-sky than this proposal, and that's saying something.
Quote from: coredumped on February 17, 2015, 09:55:35 PM
I've always heard palms are NOT native to Jax, which I've always believed, if you go out in the woods or drive through Osceola national forest you don't see any.
Can someone more knowledgeable comment on this?
We have palms, we just don't have
only palms.
Otherwise, Simms, I generally agree with you, though a bit less cynically. Jacksonvillains on this board are generally way too gung-ho for unrealistic renderings and proposals. We are so hard up for some good development that we get over-enthusiastic for okay (or any) development proposed. And Khan certainly hasn't really done anything to earn this reverence he is afforded by Jaxsons and, in particular, Jags fans. It is certainly not altruism that has driven this proposal or any of the actions he has taken in Jacksonville that we might consider positive. He is the beneficiary of a pretty stacked industry that runs like an extra-governmental entity basically holds its host cities hostage (but, Rome
is the mob). That said, he does seem like a decent guy and I believe, for the sake of his team, he would rather see Jacksonville, particularly downtown, thriving rather than wallowing. So, while I don't see this proposal happening, I can conceive of him getting something built that would be major for downtown. And if balloons are part of it, well then woohoo! Who doesn't like balloons? Though, I imagine we'll get more practice field and less office space/retail/residential than what is shown here.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 17, 2015, 06:00:20 PM
Not a personal attack simms, just some insight for those who haven't been afforded the awesomeness of living vicariously through you and your stops at a couple of metros that are always better than the last in your climb up the corporate ladder.
I, sir, am enthralled.
Honestly, troll or no, NRW
is funny.
Also, they should absolutely not be filling in more of the river. The river is
the thing we have going for the area.
I had the opportunity to listen to the interview. Pittsburgh's Northshore was mentioned by the architect as something he thought the Shipyards could become. What was shown was a vision they hope the community will support to build momentum for the project.
However, it's conceptual. When asked, he didn't provide a timeline for development. Instead he said, they'd still have to get with developers who would be interested in building at the Shipyards.
He also mentioned that the project could be phased over the course of several years......
Btw, a few images of Northshore back in 2009:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/592818771_74RXX-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/592818616_kBzpz-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/592818538_5r2VZ-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/592817260_YERgo-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/592818825_8DNKp-L.jpg)
The impression I'm getting is that although Khan is one of the world's richest, he's no fool either.
He's not bankrolling something that won't make sense financially, just for the sake of being Jax's long desired Sugar Daddy.
What was released is for creating excitement and support for whatever wheeling and dealing that may be coming next.
Also, this is a long term conceptual vision of complete buildout and development.
Btw, when I say long term, I mean decades.....not less than 10 years.
^ to the last point of filling in more of the river: I wonder if the architects are mindful of the currents. They can be quite strong as it is. Create a high pressure choke point and it is going to change the physics of the area and make those placid looking marina additions much more challenging. That's why you don't see marinas sticking out from River Street in downtown Savannah.
Quote from: simms3 on February 17, 2015, 10:01:20 PM
Scrub palmetto and sabal palms are native, I believe. A few other species can endure a North FL winter. The kinds of tropical palms rendered will not be the kinds of palms planted at this development, unless they budgeted for a potentially annual replanting.
I like palms and have insisted that my parents move out the beach so that when I "come home" to FL once a year, I can feel like I'm actually somewhere in FL. We can all dream.
Some palms = good. I think the rendering used landscaping as a placeholder as well, but I get annoyed when I see renders of North FL proposals complete with Royal Palms and Coconut Palms, etc, knowing it will never look like that. There is one particular segment of the rendering where there appears to be a palm tree planted every 2 feet. It seemed a bit over the top.
I totally agree 100% well said.
Quote from: jaxjaguar on February 18, 2015, 12:26:05 AM
Someone should go back to 1898 and ask these people why there are palm trees downtown ;)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-x2NY3nPpCyQ/VN-soH2hMaI/AAAAAAAAAlc/tN1L79D7YRc/s2048/4a24095u.jpg)
That Sabal palm should be the only type of palm IMO. People can try to downplay the importance of landscaping, but local foliage is natural and important, versus having the forced unnatural 'zoo exhibit look' with all of these tropical zoned palms like in the rendering. Palm trees are good 'touch up trees' and shouldn't be overdone IMO.
Quote from: vicupstate on February 18, 2015, 09:18:06 AM
I think there is plenty of reason for skepticism, but I will wait for the details expected next week before drawing any conclusions. One BIG fear I have is that the city will be so enthralled with this dream like project that more studied, and (IMO more do-able) projects like the Laura Trio/Barnett deal get pushed to the side. The city is strapped for money as it is, and what money that can be found will be need there as well.
JAX has a long history of looking for a silver bullet approach to revitalization, rather than going the tried and true route that other cities have done.
Khan is too smart to let the Shipyards derail the Trio. Both are vitally important projects, and if you listen to everything Khan and Lamping have said in recent years, they understand how massively important revitalization of downtown at large is to the health of the city and the Jaguars. They are also smart enough to know, as any informed citizen should, that Jacksonville isn't flush with cash for capital improvements. Plus, let's not forget that Khan provided the financing for the Atkins group to purchase the Laura Street Trio.
The way I see it, there are really only two ways that this thing can go. The first, and far most likely, outcome is that Khan does what he has always done, and makes his vision for the Shipyards a reality in the coming years. If it was anyone else, I'd be skeptical too. But Khan will get this done. By all accounts, he is absolutely consumed with the Shipyards. When this guy sets his mind (and capital) to something, history shows that he gets the job done, and gets it done well.
The other, far less likely but still possible, outcome would be the city bungling their part of the deal (whether by mishandling the remediation or nickel-and-diming) so badly that Khan gives up, closes his wallet, and moves the Jags when their lease with Everbank runs up.
I had a chance to watch the presentation again last night and sleep on it, and as I mentioned yesterday, I really think that Khan, Lamping, and Populous knocked it out of the park. I am fully aware that I probably come off as a cheerleader for these guys, but seriously, rewatch Populous' presentation yesterday and tell me that these guys don't truly get it. The Shipyards that they propose isn't a dime-a-dozen riverfront development. It's a branded destination, reflecting the site's history (if you haven't noticed, the design of the buildings is inspired by and resembles moored ships) and integrating Jacksonville's most valuable asset – the St. Johns River – wherever possible.
To those saying it isn't enough of a destination; I don't know what else you could ask for. The proposed plan, in its current state, includes restaurants, retail, an amphitheater, interesting architecture, a riverfront boardwalk, a pedestrian bridge, water features with paddleboats, the USS Adams, and a bleeding-edge public park overlooking the St. Johns River, atop a practice field for the Jags. Key to these offerings is the fact that they will be absolutely exclusive to the Shipyards. You can't find them in the suburbs.
Even if it takes a decade to build out, a development like this has the potential to finally redefine downtown Jacksonville as the epicenter of our city. You have to jump at that opportunity when it is presented. Whatever the upfront cost, the return on that investment will be priceless, both in quality of life improvement and in marketing potential.
Based on the video, I'd say the recently suffering residents of the Plaza Townhomes are big winners. Instead of staring at Berkman 2 in the dark, they will have a front row on Shad's creation.
The last 10 pages are typical of major development in any city and reflects the wide range of readership and community involvement MetroJacksonville generates. Some people are just happy anything is being proposed, and there are others who live and breath development principles. Sadly, when design questions are raised by the second group, the first group interprets that as opposition to development in general. I guess the silver lining is that everyone here agrees something needs to be done, all we really differ on is what that something is.
For those that want to get out into the weeds on design principles the book New Urbanism Best Practices Guide has a section dedicated to waterfront development. Some things this proposal does well, and some it doesn't do so well. The challenge is to improve what needs to be improved without giving the impression that there is opposition to development in general.
Here are the 8 keys to successful waterfront development:
i. Transform the image as a gateway to the city
ii. Create a waterfront boulevard as spine for new development
iii. Link nearby parks, open space, and linear corridors
iv. Create parks that act as windows to the water
v. Provide continuous public access that varies along the length of the waterfront
vi. Design open space to create value to adjacent land
vii. Plan for a fine-grained mix of land uses that complement each other
viii. Design buildings that respond to the water front
Kerry the critique did not come in the form of real questions or concerns, they were rants about it not being the favored software, not a big boy proposal a fantasy. Clearly just trolling the subject. I think you see here when those in field chime in it is generally appreciated even fawned over. Simms has been called out and you have seen his comments change to being actually constructive and insightful and so is now appreciated.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 18, 2015, 09:39:16 AM
I had the opportunity to listen to the interview. Pittsburgh's Northshore was mentioned by the architect as something he thought the Shipyards could become. What was shown was a vision they hope the community will support to build momentum for the project.
However, it's conceptual. When asked, he didn't provide a timeline for development. Instead he said, they'd still have to get with developers who would be interested in building at the Shipyards.
He also mentioned that the project could be phased over the course of several years......
Btw, a few images of Northshore back in 2009:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/592818771_74RXX-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/592818616_kBzpz-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/592818538_5r2VZ-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/592817260_YERgo-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/592818825_8DNKp-L.jpg)
The impression I'm getting is that although Khan is one of the world's richest, he's no fool either.
He's not bankrolling something that won't make sense financially, just for the sake of being Jax's long desired Sugar Daddy.
What was released is for creating excitement and support for whatever wheeling and dealing that may be coming next.
Also, this is a long term conceptual vision of complete buildout and development.
Btw, when I say long term, I mean decades.....not less than 10 years.
+1
Can't wait for the Opening of the Southbank Riverwalk.
Fishing is out.
Cycling is out.
That last picture. Is that OCK undercover?
Visit Jacksonville!
I'm ultimately excited about the impact this could have on the surrounding area. Institution Ale is already working on moving nearby, maybe a revitalization of sorts. I like how this basically connects the stadium to downtown so its not so isolated. Maybe this could finally be justification for a skyway extension and removing that elevated expressway (I can dream can't I?).
Finally had the chance to review everything last night and this morning.
- Overall, I am impressed. There are certainly some things that I think might be unrealistic. I have no issue with the a football field on top of a building (that has been done many times, particularly one that has no/limited seating stands). I don't know if I see a football field on top of another football field, because the lower football field can't have columns and needs a relatively high ceiling. Domed stadiums are either inflated (meaning snow is about the heaviest thing it could hold, and not even that all the time), metal (which isn't going to support much more), or metal&concrete (which is incredibly expensive just to throw a field on top of).
- I don't get the "amphitheater". Maybe I'm looking at the rendering wrong, but I don't understand it.
- Shad Khan is an Engineer worth $4.5 Billion, and is self-made. The tells me first that he has the resources to back this, and he's not going to propose something so incredibly unrealistic that it's nothing but Photoshop/Illustrator. It also tells me that someone worth $4.5 Billion doesn't get there by being nothing but Charitable. He's a businessman, and isn't going to break ground on something unless he expects to make money. I also believe he didn't get there by wasting time or paying people who are wasting time. I truly believe something will happen there. It might not be exactly this, and he hasn't released a timeframe, costs, or what he's going to ask the city for.
- For those who don't know much about football, what Shad Khan and Mark Lamping are doing on the business side (off the field) with the Jags is very incredible. First of all, he owns 100% of the team, and since the NFL stipulates that you can finance VERY little of an ownership stake (my understanding is he didn't finance anything), he wrote a $760 million check. Not too many people who can do this have invested in Jacksonville.
- The 2014 Stadium improvements were not only a big hit from a wow factor, they were a huge win financially. His rendering for the new club sections is extremely realistic, and wouldn't cost nearly what the 2014 improvements cost. Local Revenue (which is everything except TV and non-club/skybox/terrace/etc. seating, a very important number when it comes to the NFL CBA and Financing) is way up as a percentage. The team is no longer mentioned with the Los Angeles discussion, even as that talk is gaining steam in NFL circles.
In short, I don't think it's worth going completely to the negative nor is it worth searching online for a website to buy a condo in this place. Take yesterday for what it was: a fun, conceptual presentation of something that in any form, is going to be better than what is there today, presented by a multi-billionaire that has the resources to pull off something of this scale. I'd like to see some more concrete items come out next week. Hopefully they will.
Quote from: JeffreyS on February 18, 2015, 10:40:14 AM
Kerry the critique did not come in the form of real questions or concerns, they were rants about it not being the favored software, not a big boy proposal a fantasy. Clearly just trolling the subject. I think you see here when those in field chime in it is generally appreciated even fawned over. Simms has been called out and you have seen his comments change to being actually constructive and insightful and so is now appreciated.
It is too bad that there isn't a public forum where the finer details could be discussed because with a project of this size there is lots to talk about.
Quote from: Steve on February 18, 2015, 12:01:30 PM
In short, I don't think it's worth going completely to the negative nor is it worth searching online for a website to buy a condo in this place. Take yesterday for what it was: a fun, conceptual presentation of something that in any form, is going to be better than what is there today, presented by a multi-billionaire that has the resources to pull off something of this scale. I'd like to see some more concrete items come out next week. Hopefully they will.
I think you're totally on point with everything. Khan is getting most of the public excited about this first, which makes it much more plausible to see a candidate publicly support putting tax dollars towards this.
Quote from: Sonic101 on February 18, 2015, 11:45:56 AM
I'm ultimately excited about the impact this could have on the surrounding area. Intuition Ale is already working on moving nearby, maybe a revitalization of sorts.
If Khan's plan comes to fruition, and if Intuition can survive the construction, these guys really hit the jackpot.
Red box is their location relative the proposed development:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B-E_3WSCUAAywAq.png)
Is there a reason why the city isn't already moving ahead with remediation? Last I looked, that process alone could be 12 to 24 months. The city has the bank to get moving. Why aren't they?
Quote from: KenFSU on February 18, 2015, 12:22:39 PM
Red box is their location relative the proposed development:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B-E_3WSCUAAywAq.png)
Further proof that everything centers around a good pint. ;)
Steve has pretty much nailed my thoughts on the presentation.
In a perfect world, it would be built exactly as designed, 20yr leases would be signed for all the retail/office space and there would be a waiting list on the condo/apt side of things. Oh yeah... and another 25k full-time residents would flood the core.
It's not a perfect world; and people don't really get excited over 3-story "Jacksonville Beige" stucco covered buildings (are you listening Toney Sleiman?). So we start with his dream, and then we tweak it here and there, and I imagine that we'll end up with something completely different. But definitely something. And based on his track-record since being here, I think we'll see something sooner rather than later - 1-2 years from now moving dirt for the practice fields at a minimum.
There is a phrase that keeps popping up that I'd like to address, though: "This doesn't/isn't feel/seem/appear Jacksonville."
Good. Khan isn't Jacksonville, and I hope he brings in more influence that ISN'T Jacksonville. Our status quo is boring, un-inventive and quite frankly a detriment to our city. I'm looking forward to more presentations along this ilk.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 18, 2015, 12:47:30 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on February 18, 2015, 12:22:39 PM
Red box is their location relative the proposed development:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B-E_3WSCUAAywAq.png)
Further proof that everything centers around a good pint. ;)
Steve has pretty much nailed my thoughts on the presentation.
In a perfect world, it would be built exactly as designed, 20yr leases would be signed for all the retail/office space and there would be a waiting list on the condo/apt side of things. Oh yeah... and another 25k full-time residents would flood the core.
It's not a perfect world; and people don't really get excited over 3-story "Jacksonville Beige" stucco covered buildings (are you listening Toney Sleiman?). So we start with his dream, and then we tweak it here and there, and I imagine that we'll end up with something completely different. But definitely something. And based on his track-record since being here, I think we'll see something sooner rather than later - 1-2 years from now moving dirt for the practice fields at a minimum.
There is a phrase that keeps popping up that I'd like to address, though: "This doesn't/isn't feel/seem/appear Jacksonville."
Good. Khan isn't Jacksonville, and I hope he brings in more influence that ISN'T Jacksonville. Our status quo is boring, un-inventive and quite frankly a detriment to our city. I'm looking forward to more presentations along this ilk.
+1 well said. To me, downtown is pretty much an open canvas. What "image" does it really have? and I live downtown.
The elevated express way needs to come down.
^ what is the proposed access to the Hart Bridge if the elevated road goes away?
Quote from: downtownbrown on February 18, 2015, 01:20:08 PM
^ what is the proposed access to the Hart Bridge if the elevated road goes away?
Just move the ramp closer to where the bridge is. It should go to grade as fast as possible after crossing the river. It was elevated so people didn't have to drive through industrial wasteland, but now that the industrial wasteland is going away it needs to be removed to make room for not only this development but future adjacent development.
^so you'd put it on the ground between the stadium and the river? Why create that traffic nightmare in the middle of a walking destination?
Elevated freeways are being converted to walkable at-grade boulevards all over America and in Europe (where walkability never went away), urban freeways don't even exist.
^^^San Francisco is the best example of this (its double-decker elevated freeways were damaged in the '89 earthquake and it was a bit of a forced wise decision), but Seattle, Syracuse, and Milwaukee are also good, current examples.
In San Francisco's case, the Embarcadero Freeway cut the city off from the waterfront and elevated crime along the wharves. The waterfront everyone thinks of today with the Ferry Building, cruise terminal, Bloomberg offices, activated piers, Exploratorium, etc would not be possible if the freeway were still there. There are a series of leftover above grade walkways too that connect some of the area buildings above what used to be freeway offramps into the city.
The Central Freeway was closed down and removed to the chagrin of residents who used it to gain access to the interstate. However, what was once a neighborhood as infamous and dangerous as the nationally infamous Tenderloin is now my personal favorite neighborhood in the city and one of my favorite neighborhoods anywhere (I can't afford it, but I like to go). It's known as Hayes Valley and is absurdly cute and chic today - pictures do not do it justice and the vibe is unreal.
http://www.pps.org/reference/octavia-boulevard-creating-a-vibrant-neighborhood-from-a-former-freeway/
http://www.cnu.org/highways/sfoctavia
There's definitely precedence. Models would be found in other cities. I'll try to dig up better articles/pictures on the conversion of double-decker Central Freeway to Patricia's Green. On the road, however...
I often wonder whether Austin will one day find a way to convert the double decker I-35 to an at-grade road, but that would require routing interstate traffic differently first, of course. I guess Syracuse is still working on this plan. Ending I-81's severance of downtown from the university area is a fine plan for Syracuse.
This is the problem with a project this big. There are just so many issue to discuss and if we get bogged down in freeway replacement discussions we neglect so many other issues (like why not build the elevated football fields over the parking lot at Everbank, instead of on prime waterfront land)
Quote from: WarDamJagFan on February 17, 2015, 02:23:15 PM
When the concept of the scoreboards and pool cabanas were first introduced by Khan, were they also attached with an initial price tag / implementation strategy? Either way, I would have a hard time believing Khan would waste his time and energy on a project of this magnitude if he didn't think it was completely possible and rational. This is the coolest idea I've ever seen for Jacksonville and we are so fortunate to have someone like Khan wanting to invest so much into our city.
Agreed. Excellent. Aggressive, and quite different for Jacksonville; almost Europeanesque. Hope it moves forward. I too don't think that Kahn would waste his time regarding a project of this caliber if He didn't mean business.
Quote from: Kerry on February 18, 2015, 02:06:29 PM
Elevated freeways are being converted to walkable at-grade boulevards all over America and in Europe (where walkability never went away), urban freeways don't even exist.
Yes, I get that. I lived in Boston before the Big Dig. But in this case, if I am driving from anywhere in the Core toward the Beaches, I'd rather jump on the Hart Bridge via Liberty Street than have to drive through the Shipyards, and past and around the stadium.
Quote from: downtownbrown on February 18, 2015, 03:24:35 PM
Quote from: Kerry on February 18, 2015, 02:06:29 PM
Elevated freeways are being converted to walkable at-grade boulevards all over America and in Europe (where walkability never went away), urban freeways don't even exist.
Yes, I get that. I lived in Boston before the Big Dig. But in this case, if I am driving from anywhere in the Core toward the Beaches, I'd rather jump on the Hart Bridge via Liberty Street than have to drive through the Shipyards, and past and around the stadium.
You could go a few blocks north and get on the Matthews.
^horrible option. The trip through Arlington and Regency is doable, of course, but much less convenient for me that Hart to Beach.
^^^So in other words, because you and a few thousand other people enjoy the slightly quicker convenience of limited access highway starting a few blocks earlier, we should never think about a bigger plan that focuses on aesthetics and superior urban design for a wider audience, including visitors to the city?
Traffic in Jax is not bad. I would think no more than 3-5 minutes would be added to a commute if the elevated expressways were torn down.
Goodness gracious me. Some of y'all can't see the forest for the trees. zOMG wooden boardwalks! Coconut palms! Footballs bouncing off rooftops! River currents!
Get a grip, folks. What you watched as a promotional video of some preliminary design renderings. The idea that none of this can possibly happen because the trees aren't native... or the boardwalk will rot... or the hot air balloons are too low-res to fly... or the footballs will fall off the roof and crush the children - won't somebody think of the children! - is idiotic. You aren't looking at a final design, with all the engineering and liability issues solved. You're looking at AN IDEA.
You can have wooden boardwalks if you're willing to pay for the upkeep (which the city clearly was not with the southbank riverwalk), or you can switch to brick or concrete sometime between today and AT LEAST 3 years from today when constructions starts. You can have a marina if you're willing to build a jetty or otherwise manipulate the flow of the river - I can't believe some of you think it is so impossible to have boats in water, like humankind has never docked a vessel. The landscaping choices can surely be changed at any time between now and the completion of all construction. Oh, and I have complete faith that there are quite enough personal injury attorneys in this town to make sure the liability issues surrounding footballs and rooftops can be managed - This net is "For The People."
Anything is possible if you can write a check (and Shad Khan can write checks). However, it would be irresponsible for Khan to pay to have somebody address every single minutia before he even presents his IDEA to the city.
^^^Ok. Here's what we know of the vision:
Activate Bay St
Hotel
Office
Retail
Public space
Extend riverwalk and make it interesting
Tie development into surrounding context
Add indoor/rooftop football practice fields
Add potential to moor Naval vessel as museum
Render this purely conceptually.
Maybe some of us have seen this a few times already before. The only major three differences between this proposal and the others are football fields, the look of the renderings, and space for Naval museum. The Naval museum is not Khan's idea and has in fact been an idea punted around this website for many years, the lead being taken by another team looking for funding (perhaps from Khan?). The football fields still feel weird, however, it makes sense given Khan and everything surrounding that.
I guess there are those of us who are tired of renderings with no substance. I am not the only one here curious about who potential partners/funding sources are. What's the ultimate mix of uses, and if there are options, what are they? Timetable? I know Khan doesn't own the land, but what he's pitching is not necessarily some crazy unique vision that hasn't been pitched before, and actually refined to a much greater extent twice before already.
So in a nutshell Khan's vision isn't all that different from anyone else's for the site. Now let's talk implementation. That's what I'm waiting for. And what's the end goal?
Is Khan trying to get the land? Listening to presentation, reading presentation it sounds like Khan pitched most of this to be developed by other groups. So is he talking to anyone? What's the deal? If I were Khan, I'd want all of this to get done, but I might only want to be on the hook for football field end (where his yacht is also rendered to be docked). Closest to stadium, and with a potential use tied into stadium/team already owned.
I'm used to seeing "visions" and these sort of presentations. Generally they come with more specifics and more of a plan. Announcements are made when parties are known and everyone can sync up their PR.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 17, 2015, 05:44:15 PM
Some perspective to his viewpoints is required. While he does have some insight into the inner financial workings of development firms, he is also the same person that was afraid to ride the MARTA just a few years ago.
WAIT WHAT?? Simms afraid to ride Marta??
I think I see Simms point though. I like Khan, but something about this development doesnt feel right. Its sounds to me like Simms is saying Jacksonville people are too dumb to know whats going on. Ive often wondered this same question myself sometimes.
Quote from: simms3 on February 18, 2015, 06:05:51 PM
^^^Ok. Here's what we know of the vision:
Activate Bay St
Hotel
Office
Retail
Public space
Extend riverwalk and make it interesting
Tie development into surrounding context
Add indoor/rooftop football practice fields
Add potential to moor Naval vessel as museum
Render this purely conceptually.
Maybe some of us have seen this a few times already before. The only major three differences between this proposal and the others are football fields, the look of the renderings, and space for Naval museum. The Naval museum is not Khan's idea and has in fact been an idea punted around this website for many years, the lead being taken by another team looking for funding (perhaps from Khan?). The football fields still feel weird, however, it makes sense given Khan and everything surrounding that.
I guess there are those of us who are tired of renderings with no substance. I am not the only one here curious about who potential partners/funding sources are. What's the ultimate mix of uses, and if there are options, what are they? Timetable? I know Khan doesn't own the land, but what he's pitching is not necessarily some crazy unique vision that hasn't been pitched before, and actually refined to a much greater extent twice before already.
So in a nutshell Khan's vision isn't all that different from anyone else's for the site. Now let's talk implementation. That's what I'm waiting for. And what's the end goal?
Is Khan trying to get the land? Listening to presentation, reading presentation it sounds like Khan pitched most of this to be developed by other groups. So is he talking to anyone? What's the deal? If I were Khan, I'd want all of this to get done, but I might only want to be on the hook for football field end (where his yacht is also rendered to be docked). Closest to stadium, and with a potential use tied into stadium/team already owned.
I'm used to seeing "visions" and these sort of presentations. Generally they come with more specifics and more of a plan. Announcements are made when parties are known and everyone can sync up their PR.
That will all come Monday when they present it to the DIA/DDRB(?). I think this was just to get people excited.
I believe this Shipyards plan will actually be carried out. Why? Because as another poster alluded to earlier, the fate of the Jags in Jacksonville is tied to its success.
Unlike the other potential Shipyards investors, Khan already has a billion dollars invested in this town--the Jags. He and Mark Lamping have been persistent in saying that they need the team to generate more revenue. Unfortunately, as one of the smallest NFL markets in population and corporate presence, the ceiling for making significant progress through conventional means is fairly limited. The Shipyards is a game changer, though hardly unique in major league sports. Robert Kraft did the same thing with the Patriots in Foxboro, setting up hotels and restaurants and other attractions near Gillette Stadium, and he gets a piece of that pie. The Atlanta Braves are in the process of building a new stadium outside of Atlanta in Cobb County (where I live) and one of the main reasons is because the new stadium will be surrounded by attractions that will generate revenue for the team? Anyone ever been to Turner Field? It's a nice stadium, but it's surrounded by one bar, and a few dinky hotels.
I don't know how much of Khan's money will be spent on this, or what the city's share will be. But the council members know that this is the best deal they're every gonna get. And I think it will be made clear to them that if they vote 'no', they'll lose a lot more than the Shipyards.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on February 17, 2015, 08:56:59 PM
Ennis, I have not kept up on this the way you have but I think I recall you once mentioning that the Shipyards is not something that is interfaced directly with downtown. This project sure looks flashy that much is true but something about it is uncomfortable to me. It is so not Jacksonville or N.E. Florida. I like exciting and dramatic projects and am thrilled that the Shipyards may be made viable but why must Jacksonville always get distracted by shiny objects? lol Just not particularly in love with this idea, it doesn't feel right as if it belongs with the other big failed projects in Dubai or China. But hey, at least it is a positive start after a dry period and years worth of empty promises. My first thoughts were about how this would interface with a downtown focused on the re-use of historic structures and my next thought was that palm trees are not shade trees and all of those open walkways are going to be some kinda hot in the summer. I hope Khan's people follow this site though because those doing the designing have no idea of how this is going to interface in a meaning full way with downtown to my view. Just my initial thoughts along with the realization that the taxpayers are going to be paying a major part of the tab regarding this vision. Khan leverages his money. I wonder what the actual working of a deal he has going might be? I can tell you his support of Alvin Brown means Brown in on the same page with Khan and whatever he proposes.
This is how I felt when I saw it in the JBJ yesterday. Im also starting not to like Mayor Brown either....its just too pie in the sky to me. I like Khan and his "mojo" talk but the fact that he seems to be lone ranger when it comes to flare, swagger and ideas make me wonder if he the only rich guy in Duval, St Johns and Clay?? He (and Jacksonville) needs to have some competitors. Someone else with flare, swagger and ideas. Its like the other folks with heavy pockets are hiding which makes the Jacksonville metro seem SMALLER then it actually is, making Khan not really have to step his game up like Simms was mentioning. The Jacksonville heavies stay in the shadows, while Khan does all the moves making it seem like he is the ONLY mover. Its kinda like how Dallas has Mark Cuban and Jerry Jones, owners with that BIG persona and it doesnt have to be the owner of major sports team, Im just using that as an example. I just wish Khan didnt get the full spotlight all the time. Not because of him, but because of the other people with money shying away.
Quote from: iMarvin on February 18, 2015, 06:44:00 PMI think this was just to get people excited.
Bingo! It certainly worked. I can't wait to learn more about the financial side of this.
They interviewed Mark Lamping this morning on WOKV and the impression is that this is just a concept that needs community input. He strongly impressed for the need to get community input into all aspects of the proposal.
Contrast that with othe developments in Jax that seem to appear with little or no public feedback.
This is an org that is laying it all out there and saying "please, we want your feedback". I find it hard to criticize that posture even if there was anything I didnt agree with in the material.
For me (IMHO) the scope is right, its consistent with Jax overall and provides a good front door to the stadium.
My concerns are around connectivity with downtown and accessibility during stadium events that arent the Jaguars.
The rest is the details to be worked out at a micro level. But i like the direction at a macro level.
DIA CEO Wallace says that Khan' s group actually used the DIA feasibility study to guide their design and they were very pleased with this and that their vision was in align with the study. This is per twitter from Stephanie Brown of WOKV.
Quote from: Coolyfett on February 18, 2015, 07:02:53 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on February 17, 2015, 08:56:59 PM
Ennis, I have not kept up on this the way you have but I think I recall you once mentioning that the Shipyards is not something that is interfaced directly with downtown. This project sure looks flashy that much is true but something about it is uncomfortable to me. It is so not Jacksonville or N.E. Florida. I like exciting and dramatic projects and am thrilled that the Shipyards may be made viable but why must Jacksonville always get distracted by shiny objects? lol Just not particularly in love with this idea, it doesn't feel right as if it belongs with the other big failed projects in Dubai or China. But hey, at least it is a positive start after a dry period and years worth of empty promises. My first thoughts were about how this would interface with a downtown focused on the re-use of historic structures and my next thought was that palm trees are not shade trees and all of those open walkways are going to be some kinda hot in the summer. I hope Khan's people follow this site though because those doing the designing have no idea of how this is going to interface in a meaning full way with downtown to my view. Just my initial thoughts along with the realization that the taxpayers are going to be paying a major part of the tab regarding this vision. Khan leverages his money. I wonder what the actual working of a deal he has going might be? I can tell you his support of Alvin Brown means Brown in on the same page with Khan and whatever he proposes.
This is how I felt when I saw it in the JBJ yesterday. Im also starting not to like Mayor Brown either....its just too pie in the sky to me. I like Khan and his "mojo" talk but the fact that he seems to be lone ranger when it comes to flare, swagger and ideas make me wonder if he the only rich guy in Duval, St Johns and Clay?? He (and Jacksonville) needs to have some competitors. Someone else with flare, swagger and ideas. Its like the other folks with heavy pockets are hiding which makes the Jacksonville metro seem SMALLER then it actually is, making Khan not really have to step his game up like Simms was mentioning. The Jacksonville heavies stay in the shadows, while Khan does all the moves making it seem like he is the ONLY mover. Its kinda like how Dallas has Mark Cuban and Jerry Jones, owners with that BIG persona and it doesnt have to be the owner of major sports team, Im just using that as an example. I just wish Khan didnt get the full spotlight all the time. Not because of him, but because of the other people with money shying away.
Personally I think worrying about who is getting the spotlight is part of the ongoing problem with Jacksonville. The old guard always more concerned about who is getting credit instead of actually doing anything. I believe this was also alluded to by the guy that came here to head Visit Jacksonville. To me the spotlight can shine brightly on him if he actually accomplishes something here. Sorta like Rummel is for Healthy Town and Coley for Brooklyn.
Quote from: downtownbrown on February 18, 2015, 03:24:35 PM
Yes, I get that. I lived in Boston before the Big Dig. But in this case, if I am driving from anywhere in the Core toward the Beaches, I'd rather jump on the Hart Bridge via Liberty Street than have to drive through the Shipyards, and past and around the stadium.
you just drive down Bay Street (which is remade into a boulevard)...and then up the ramp onto the bridge somewhere around Met Park.
Quote from: Coolyfett on February 18, 2015, 07:02:53 PM
This is how I felt when I saw it in the JBJ yesterday. Im also starting not to like Mayor Brown either....its just too pie in the sky to me. I like Khan and his "mojo" talk but the fact that he seems to be lone ranger when it comes to flare, swagger and ideas make me wonder if he the only rich guy in Duval, St Johns and Clay??
I believe Khan once said homeless people in Detroit have more mojo than millionaires in Jacksonville.
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 18, 2015, 09:01:05 PM
Quote from: Coolyfett on February 18, 2015, 07:02:53 PM
This is how I felt when I saw it in the JBJ yesterday. Im also starting not to like Mayor Brown either....its just too pie in the sky to me. I like Khan and his "mojo" talk but the fact that he seems to be lone ranger when it comes to flare, swagger and ideas make me wonder if he the only rich guy in Duval, St Johns and Clay??
I believe Khan once said homeless people in Detroit have more mojo than millionaires in Jacksonville.
Let me lend a hand here:
QuoteThe key is to produce more results, he said.
During the sold-out lunch attended by 250 people, moderator Jim Stallings asked Khan what he sees coming together for Jacksonville.
"I think there's been a vacuum here, quite frankly I don't know why, but it's got so much going for it," Khan said.
"A homeless guy in Detroit has more mojo than a millionaire in Jacksonville," he said. "We all need to contribute, but actions speak louder than words."
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=542777
If they want public input, when does the charrette start?
::dreaming::
Man, how cool would it be to have an indepth Q&A session live on this site with Mr. Kahn......
::end dreaming::
I'm late chiming in here but after reading through all of the posts so far I think that my opinion sits with the majority. I think this presentation was built to generate some serious buzz. I also think that the "bones" of the concept presented are solid and well thought out, although, the details still need to be worked on. This is the first step towards developing a true master plan for the site and I believe that Kahn is the guy to get this done.
Quote from: simms3 on February 17, 2015, 06:29:23 PM
Also, Khan, the man himself, is no real estate man. No engineer. No architect. He does have the money to hire the best, though. It would appear he has not done so.
Simms,
You just completely lost my respect for all of your statements out of the window when you called Mr. Khan a "no engineer." when he is really an engineer for a long time. He is a engineer-oriented business man, so he does have some idea of what engineering concepts can work or not.
Bloody hell.
-Josh
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 18, 2015, 08:58:15 PM
Quote from: downtownbrown on February 18, 2015, 03:24:35 PM
Yes, I get that. I lived in Boston before the Big Dig. But in this case, if I am driving from anywhere in the Core toward the Beaches, I'd rather jump on the Hart Bridge via Liberty Street than have to drive through the Shipyards, and past and around the stadium.
you just drive down Bay Street (which is remade into a boulevard)...and then up the ramp onto the bridge somewhere around Met Park.
Hey, look, if Khan builds anything like that, I'll gladly walk to the beach if I want to go there.
Quote from: edjax on February 18, 2015, 07:47:57 PM
Personally I think worrying about who is getting the spotlight is part of the ongoing problem with Jacksonville. The old guard always more concerned about who is getting credit instead of actually doing anything. I believe this was also alluded to by the guy that came here to head Visit Jacksonville. To me the spotlight can shine brightly on him if he actually accomplishes something here. Sorta like Rummel is for Healthy Town and Coley for Brooklyn.
....and what Sleiman *could* be for the Landing if he wasn't a greedy, visionless slimeball. I mean, does this dude realize this could be his legacy project?
I tried to read through all 13 pages of comments, but my eyes are burning, so I might have missed one or two. What I don't understand about all of the negativity is this: this guy is a private citizen, not an elected official. All he has done here is released a concept, in very much the same way that auto manufacturers release concept cars at the big auto shows each year. They gauge the response, they use that feedback to decide what stays and what goes. Or, what doesn't get built at all. No one knows the cost, and no one in these comments seems to have knowledge of any public cost there might be. How is this a bad thing?
I know I'm an outsider looking in, but I agree with many of the others: assuming that the public trough is not on the hook for money it doesn't have, how can it hurt to listen to this plan BEFORE tearing it to shreds?
Quote from: downtownbrown on February 18, 2015, 09:40:57 AM
^ to the last point of filling in more of the river: I wonder if the architects are mindful of the currents. They can be quite strong as it is. Create a high pressure choke point and it is going to change the physics of the area and make those placid looking marina additions much more challenging. That's why you don't see marinas sticking out from River Street in downtown Savannah.
The actual physical cost of filling in portions of the river, the consequential costs and the regulatory permits will modify those ideas.
Quote from: downtownbrown on February 19, 2015, 11:33:16 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 18, 2015, 08:58:15 PM
Quote from: downtownbrown on February 18, 2015, 03:24:35 PM
Yes, I get that. I lived in Boston before the Big Dig. But in this case, if I am driving from anywhere in the Core toward the Beaches, I'd rather jump on the Hart Bridge via Liberty Street than have to drive through the Shipyards, and past and around the stadium.
you just drive down Bay Street (which is remade into a boulevard)...and then up the ramp onto the bridge somewhere around Met Park.
Hey, look, if Khan builds anything like that, I'll gladly walk to the beach if I want to go there.
Well, if this adds enough people to downtown then maybe, just maybe this could be an incentive to build a light / metro rail connection to the beaches... one can always dream.
Quote from: Overstreet on February 19, 2015, 03:11:41 PM
Quote from: downtownbrown on February 18, 2015, 09:40:57 AM
^ to the last point of filling in more of the river: I wonder if the architects are mindful of the currents. They can be quite strong as it is. Create a high pressure choke point and it is going to change the physics of the area and make those placid looking marina additions much more challenging. That's why you don't see marinas sticking out from River Street in downtown Savannah.
The actual physical cost of filling in portions of the river, the consequential costs and the regulatory permits will modify those ideas.
Can't tell from the drawings, but I wonder how much of the concept is intended to be on piers. The water feature (paddle boat pond?) where the Berkman marina is now could be enclosed, I suppose. Is it even possible that environmentalists would allow fill in that area? Doubt it.
There seems to be this misconception that because Khan is a billionaire he is automatically a good real estate developer and urban planner. I can point people to a lot of urban developments built by billionaires that suck.
I think you're misreading the comments Kerry. I think people think it's good because they like what they see and they think Khan can get it done because he's a billionaire.
Quote from: wsansewjs on February 19, 2015, 11:30:14 AM
Quote from: simms3 on February 17, 2015, 06:29:23 PM
Also, Khan, the man himself, is no real estate man. No engineer. No architect. He does have the money to hire the best, though. It would appear he has not done so.
Simms,
You just completely lost my respect for all of your statements out of the window when you called Mr. Khan a "no engineer." when he is really an engineer for a long time. He is a engineer-oriented business man, so he does have some idea of what engineering concepts can work or not.
Bloody hell.
-Josh
Well, Josh, I would call that a bit of an over-reaction. Calling him not-an-engineer was a pretty honest mistake that simms admitted to being incorrect about. So some chilling is in order, I believe. Nonetheless, the spirit of simms' comment holds true. While Khan may be a trained engineer, he is no longer working as an engineer. He is a businessman now, and I imagine he is pretty far removed from the engineering he may have been doing at Flex-N-Gate. Additionally, he has a degree in Industrial Engineering and worked as the Director of Engineering for Flex-N-Gate, so he was likely working on systems design (assembly-line productivity and efficiency) or even mostly management-type work. All that is to say, he is not himself qualified to design large-span structures. So, as far as this development project is concerned, he is "no engineer." Plus, he doesn't have a PE, so engineering schooling or not, he is not really an engineer...unless he works on trains or large ships (so, maybe).
He may have a better idea of what building design will work than an art history major, but he is still not qualified to build buildings.
Quote from: Kerry on February 19, 2015, 04:02:22 PM
There seems to be this misconception that because Khan is a billionaire he is automatically a good real estate developer and urban planner. I can point people to a lot of urban developments built by billionaires that suck.
Anything with the word "Trump" on it?
^ I'm a little confused. When did Shad Khan imply that he was going to be sketching the design by himself on a cocktail napkin, calculating the loads, and then building the Shipyards by hand?
I would again suggest looking at Khan's track record. He routinely surrounds himself with people who know more than he does about any given undertaking. Mark Lamping and Populous are supremely experienced and qualified to execute this project properly, if the city tasks them to do so. Khan gave them direction (design a world-class development that is uniquely Jacksonville and that can be enjoyed for generations to come), they put the figurative pencil to paper.
I don't get the impression at ALL that this is a vanity project.
Quote from: KenFSU on February 19, 2015, 04:43:48 PM
^ I'm a little confused. When did Shad Khan imply that he was going to be sketching the design by himself on a cocktail napkin, calculating the loads, and then building the Shipyards by hand?
I would again suggest looking at Khan's track record. He routinely surrounds himself with people who know more than he does about any given undertaking. Mark Lamping and Populous are supremely experienced and qualified to execute this project properly, if the city tasks them to do so. Khan gave them direction (design a world-class development that is uniquely Jacksonville and that can be enjoyed for generations to come), they put the figurative pencil to paper.
I don't get the impression at ALL that this is a vanity project.
I should have been clear. I'm not exactly agreeing with simms, I'm just explaining why I think Josh's comment was uncalled for.
The dap that simms gets on this board is so disappointing. He's so obviously a weirdly-obsessed troll, and rather sophomoric too -- even if knowledgeable about some matters, he's wildly ignorant on others.
How in the hell do you not know Shad Khan is an engineer? What the hell are you paying attention too? Oh, that's right -- some San Francisco shiznit that few in Jacksonville give a flying f*ck about.
I mean, the guy just generated a rather detailed critique of a presentation produced for a rather obvious reason -- and he had no clue !?! But it didn't matter; simms wanted to crap on Jacksonville. Apparently, someone bitch-slapped simms in Riverside or something and the force from that event has lingering effects to this day.
Damn.
Why elevate this simms character in the slightest? Is the attention that he pays to this board that flattering? His initial response in this thread is a complete joke, written like a butt-hurt wannabe nativist masquerading all around this board who secretly wishes he had the money of this Shad Khan Pakstani interloper guy. It was a genuinely offensive and unserious take, written from a completely mistaken perspective. I don't see how it could be read otherwise. For someone so supposedly knowledgeable, it was as if there was only one way to make an initial presentation regarding the Shipyards. The simms way. Well, Massa simms, yo ass be wrong on that score.
It would be nice if more of the critiques followed the model of lakelander and others who acknowledged the evident ambition of the project but reasonably wanted to see and hear more. At worst, that's where the city it. More than likely, though, the city is quite right to be super excited Shad Khan is driving this train and not the people who bitched so much about the damn scoreboards (including the San Francisco Simms of the world).
Quote from: RattlerGator on February 19, 2015, 08:07:18 PM
The dap that simms gets on this board is so disappointing. He's so obviously a weirdly-obsessed troll, and rather sophomoric too -- even if knowledgeable about some matters, he's wildly ignorant on others.
How in the hell do you not know Shad Khan is an engineer? What the hell are you paying attention too? Oh, that's right -- some San Francisco shiznit that few in Jacksonville give a flying f*ck about.
I mean, the guy just generated a rather detailed critique of a presentation produced for a rather obvious reason -- and he had no clue !?! But it didn't matter; simms wanted to crap on Jacksonville. Apparently, someone bitch-slapped simms in Riverside or something and the force from that event has lingering effects to this day.
Damn.
Why elevate this simms character in the slightest? Is the attention that he pays to this board that flattering? His initial response in this thread is a complete joke, written like a butt-hurt wannabe nativist masquerading all around this board who secretly wishes he had the money of this Shad Khan Pakstani interloper guy. It was a genuinely offensive and unserious take, written from a completely mistaken perspective. I don't see how it could be read otherwise. For someone so supposedly knowledgeable, it was as if there was only one way to make an initial presentation regarding the Shipyards. The simms way. Well, Massa simms, yo ass be wrong on that score.
It would be nice if more of the critiques followed the model of lakelander and others who acknowledged the evident ambition of the project but reasonably wanted to see and hear more. At worst, that's where the city it. More than likely, though, the city is quite right to be super excited Shad Khan is driving this train and not the people who bitched so much about the damn scoreboards (including the San Francisco Simms of the world).
Can we at least get something straight here? Industrial engineers are not engineers in the literal sense. Khan has absolutely no idea about the entitlement, legal, engineering, regulatory, and environmental issues surrounding that concept. I believe this was simms point.
Again, it's just a neat concept to excite and inspire. Nothing more. Let's chat when some real designs are made when the pens hit the paper.
You can chat whenever you want.
As you guys take this in, you might find it interesting to compare and critique against my thesis project that I shared on the site last May at http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=21546.0. I realize that this proposal has more developed structures than mine did, but the site, overall goals, and presentation are very similar.
They are worrying your nerves Simms; and, they don't even have their gold hoop earrings on. I'm so sorry for your misfortune. Just playing Simms...just playing.
Would there be a possibility Deutsche Bank would consolidate their offices in the Shipyards?
Quote from: southsider1015 on February 19, 2015, 08:23:44 PM
Can we at least get something straight here? Industrial engineers are not engineers in the literal sense.
actually they are. Perhaps what you mean to say is that industrial engineers are not civil engineers.
Quote from: floridaal on February 19, 2015, 11:50:21 PM
Would there be a possibility Deutsche Bank would consolidate their offices in the Shipyards?
I've heard from someone in management at the local office that they are pretty set on staying on the Southside. Apparently many of the employees live at the Beach, Southside, or SJC and do not want to commute to Downtown. His level of confidence was close to 100% that they would stay on the Southside. In fact, I believe they may even be in advanced talks for a specific location.
That said, if Khan comes at DB and offers a healthy incentive package (reduced office rent, residential discounts for employees, etc) maybe they would change their mind. However, I think they may be too far along to wait for the Shipyards.
I've always thought the key to making The Shipyards project successful long term is having a corporate office anchor or two, along with destination retail/dining. If I'm Khan and have the money and patience to make a long term play, I'm offering DB or another major employer discounted/free rent for a few years. As well as discounted rent for destination retail like Urban Outfitters, Crate and Barrel; and dining for a Matthew Medure, Tom Gray, or prominent out of town restaurateur.
We all believe that the shipyard site is a prime location; downtown, riverfront and waiting to be developed. Khan is a smart business man and he sees and believes in the potential. He is also the only one that can bring this kind of inspiration/development plans together on this scale. Let's support him.
I do believe that the development of this site goes hand in hand with making Jax a destination for relocation. I would say with the kind of winter the Northeast is having: it shouldn't be that difficult. Khan should bring the Jax on tour to Germany in the off season (Football, the American Football is still hugely populair over there) With Deutsche Bank here and VW coming to JaxPort; let's have some other big German companies relocate to Jax (BMW, Siemens, Bosch, Allianz, t-Mobile, SAP, Continental, Lufthansa); have 2 or 3 big corporate anchors in the Shipyards and add a couple of direct flights to Europe in the mix..... I am a believer !
Quote from: CityLife on February 20, 2015, 09:29:12 AM
I've always thought the key to making The Shipyards project successful long term is having a corporate office anchor or two.
This is where the synergy with London could be very beneficial.
Quote from: KenFSU on February 20, 2015, 10:01:08 AM
Quote from: CityLife on February 20, 2015, 09:29:12 AM
I've always thought the key to making The Shipyards project successful long term is having a corporate office anchor or two.
This is where the synergy with London could be very beneficial.
Jeff Vinik is thinking the same thing in Tampa. they are considering building a spec office building with the intent of luring a Fortune 500 HQ to relocate.
Quote from: RattlerGator on February 19, 2015, 08:07:18 PM
Well, Massa simms, yo ass be wrong on that score.
Are you intimating that simms' critique of a billion dollar development concept makes him akin to a slave owner?
Totally reasonable.
Quote from: Beloki on February 20, 2015, 09:56:01 AM
We all believe that the shipyard site is a prime location; downtown, riverfront and waiting to be developed. Khan is a smart business man and he sees and believes in the potential. He is also the only one that can bring this kind of inspiration/development plans together on this scale. Let's support him.
I do believe that the development of this site goes hand in hand with making Jax a destination for relocation. I would say with the kind of winter the Northeast is having: it shouldn't be that difficult. Khan should bring the Jax on tour to Germany in the off season (Football, the American Football is still hugely populair over there) With Deutsche Bank here and VW coming to JaxPort; let's have some other big German companies relocate to Jax (BMW, Siemens, Bosch, Allianz, t-Mobile, SAP, Continental, Lufthansa); have 2 or 3 big corporate anchors in the Shipyards and add a couple of direct flights to Europe in the mix..... I am a believer !
Chattanooga has been successful with this and they have formed a really cool German subculture in the past five years or so. Ken is right that ours would probably be the British connection if Khan has something to do with it, but who knows?
London is our most common European O/D point. Internationally, it's the second most common behind Toronto barely.
Manila is fourth and Frankfurt is fifth, not surprisingly, considering the large presence of Filipinos and the ties to German business already stated in this thread. What is surprising is how far London and Frankfurt fell between 2003-2011, but I imagine that is picking back up now.
http://www.brookings.edu/research/interactives/aviation
yaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
I'm still waiting to be impressed.
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 20, 2015, 08:05:59 AM
Quote from: southsider1015 on February 19, 2015, 08:23:44 PM
Can we at least get something straight here? Industrial engineers are not engineers in the literal sense.
actually they are. Perhaps what you mean to say is that industrial engineers are not civil engineers.
Disagree. IEs have the breadth of MEs and EE/CEs, but not the depth. Six Sigma is a joke. The term "engineer" is too loosely used these days. I'll leave it there.
Will this space use renewable energy? Like solar panels. I would love to see Jacksonville take more of the lead on that. We need to have more renewable energy in this city.
Quote from: southsider1015 on February 20, 2015, 08:27:56 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 20, 2015, 08:05:59 AM
Quote from: southsider1015 on February 19, 2015, 08:23:44 PM
Can we at least get something straight here? Industrial engineers are not engineers in the literal sense.
actually they are. Perhaps what you mean to say is that industrial engineers are not civil engineers.
Disagree. IEs have the breadth of MEs and EE/CEs, but not the depth. Six Sigma is a joke. The term "engineer" is too loosely used these days. I'll leave it there.
no...please tell us more...why is Industrial Engineering at the University of Illinois not a real engineering program
http://engineering.illinois.edu/academics/undergraduate/majors-and-minors.html
Quote from: RattlerGator on February 19, 2015, 08:07:18 PM
The dap that simms gets on this board is so disappointing. He's so obviously a weirdly-obsessed troll, and rather sophomoric too -- even if knowledgeable about some matters, he's wildly ignorant on others.).
ive seen Simms around online since maybe 2006 2007, between metrojacksonville and city data, his postings have be pretty consistent. Simms can be annoyingly snobbish, some what sheltered when it comes to the non WASP way of life, BUT troll isnt a tag Id give him. From what ive seen he obviously cares a degree about the happenings of Jax as do most of the regulars. Simms reminds me of Brainy smurf, and some of you smurfs are over reacting to the kid. Now about this project, id hope it brings in things Downtown Jax needs, mainly people coming, spending, living and being. Downtown is the spot people come to spend breifly then retreat back to the burbs. Every time I visit family downtown is dead. Heck the Beaches seem to have more going on then Downtown. It just needs something that generates repeat visits from the average metro citizen, some of these ideas Im not too sure about. The best things listed is the hotel and the creek restoration. The Riverwalk connecting Metropark to the Landing is a great idea as well. Do Jacksonville people really want a place to watch fish? Doesnt Florida have enough of those? How about a satellite campus for JU, UNF, EWC all in the same set up. If they do a practice field, why not do a joint effort with the Armada, unless they dont plan on being in Jax for the long haul. If there is any sports field there its needs to do more then be a place for the Jaguars to practice. Love the Naval ship museum idea, thats long overdue. This project just needs more venues that bring all different types of people to this location, corporate employees, tourist, students, sports fans, downtown employees, nightlife. Right now it only seems to be good for sports fans, mainly Jags fans and visitors. What happens when football is out of season?
Random question - if the Jaguars build practice fields at the Shipyards, what happens to the space with the current practice fields?
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 20, 2015, 09:19:01 PM
Quote from: southsider1015 on February 20, 2015, 08:27:56 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 20, 2015, 08:05:59 AM
Quote from: southsider1015 on February 19, 2015, 08:23:44 PM
Can we at least get something straight here? Industrial engineers are not engineers in the literal sense.
actually they are. Perhaps what you mean to say is that industrial engineers are not civil engineers.
Disagree. IEs have the breadth of MEs and EE/CEs, but not the depth. Six Sigma is a joke. The term "engineer" is too loosely used these days. I'll leave it there.
no...please tell us more...why is Industrial Engineering at the University of Illinois not a real engineering program
http://engineering.illinois.edu/academics/undergraduate/majors-and-minors.html
You're missing my point, clearly. UIUC COE is an outstanding engineering school, and it appears that their IE program is one of the best. What, do you have a degree in IE or something? It's not a traditional core branch of engineering, period. Thanks for trying to put words in my mouth.
Can we get back on topic? Khan is currently a business man, and not an engineer. He'd probably be the first to admit that. The point is, the concept video is a pie-in-the-sky imagination of what the Shipyards could be, without regard to the significant engineering issues. Khan didn't pay the creators of the video to address all of the engineering issues. It's not because Khan isn't an "engineer" or doesn't understand engineering issues since he has an IE degree from UIUC. It's because he's a businessman trying to excite and develop steam for a very intriguing project.
Quote from: Metro Jacksonville on February 17, 2015, 01:10:01 PM
Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3883789943_7GHQDpX-L.jpg)
Shahid Khan's plans for the Jacksonville Shipyards have been released. Here are several renderings of the ambitious proposal.
Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2015-feb-khans-jacksonville-shipyards-plans-revealed (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2015-feb-khans-jacksonville-shipyards-plans-revealed)
The best part of the plan is changing the color of The St. Johns River.
^and he got rid of both Berkman 2 and the jail. Maybe Maxwell House, too.
Quote from: downtownbrown on February 21, 2015, 11:25:47 AM
^and he got rid of both Berkman 2 and the jail. Maybe Maxwell House, too.
The jail and Maxwell House are still there:
https://pbs.twimg.com/tweet_video/B-EzHwQIMAI-AZr.mp4
bummer
Quote from: southsider1015 on February 21, 2015, 09:30:05 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 20, 2015, 09:19:01 PM
Quote from: southsider1015 on February 20, 2015, 08:27:56 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 20, 2015, 08:05:59 AM
Quote from: southsider1015 on February 19, 2015, 08:23:44 PM
Can we at least get something straight here? Industrial engineers are not engineers in the literal sense.
actually they are. Perhaps what you mean to say is that industrial engineers are not civil engineers.
Disagree. IEs have the breadth of MEs and EE/CEs, but not the depth. Six Sigma is a joke. The term "engineer" is too loosely used these days. I'll leave it there.
no...please tell us more...why is Industrial Engineering at the University of Illinois not a real engineering program
http://engineering.illinois.edu/academics/undergraduate/majors-and-minors.html
You're missing my point, clearly. UIUC COE is an outstanding engineering school, and it appears that their IE program is one of the best. What, do you have a degree in IE or something? It's not a traditional core branch of engineering, period. Thanks for trying to put words in my mouth.
Can we get back on topic? Khan is currently a business man, and not an engineer. He'd probably be the first to admit that. The point is, the concept video is a pie-in-the-sky imagination of what the Shipyards could be, without regard to the significant engineering issues. Khan didn't pay the creators of the video to address all of the engineering issues. It's not because Khan isn't an "engineer" or doesn't understand engineering issues since he has an IE degree from UIUC. It's because he's a businessman trying to excite and develop steam for a very intriguing project.
During my time at Georgia Tech, IE's were termed Imaginary Engineers. Again, not that I think that has anything to do with the likely success of Khan's project.
So what time is the 'big reveal' and will there be a play by play from MJ?
Is this on the agenda for the 2/24/15 DIA Board meeting? What is the Waterways component. This was a concern at a recent Jacksonville Waterways Commission meeting.
I'm worried this will be another "Landing" style development that turns its back on the street, celebrating the waterfront (nothing wrong with that)... It would just be a shame to see Bay Street not be fully addressed in the urban context (street edge, retail, restaurants) and thought out as a beautiful corridor connecting downtown and the sports area..
Also let's address the elephant in the room: the fact that the jail is across the street. I see 6 blocks between Liberty & the Maxwell House that would make a great area for a convention center.. The Mayan-influenced JSO Building is quite beautiful and could nicely retrofit (along with an expansion) into a convention hall to tie in with the hotels, offices, and retail developed on the shipyards.
The jail and sheriff's office could be moved elsewhere (perhaps out on Clifford Lane where the current AmShack is.. plenty of land there and surrounded mostly by industry)
Quote from: mbstout on February 23, 2015, 10:47:57 AM
I'm worried this will be another "Landing" style development that turns its back on the street, celebrating the waterfront (nothing wrong with that)... It would just be a shame to see Bay Street not be fully addressed in the urban context (street edge, retail, restaurants) and thought out as a beautiful corridor connecting downtown and the sports area..
This is my biggest concern as well. Who cares how it looks from the Southbank or the handful of people who arrive by boat, if the street it is on has no relationship to it at all. Bay Street needs to be transformed into a real boulevard instead of a game-day gutter, and a big part of the makeover has to be the removal of the elevated express ramp to the Hart Bridge (this area can't be expected to succeed if it is fly-over country - literally).
QuoteAlso let's address the elephant in the room: the fact that the jail is across the street. I see 6 blocks between Liberty & the Maxwell House that would make a great area for a convention center.. The Mayan-influenced JSO Building is quite beautiful and could nicely retrofit (along with an expansion) into a convention hall to tie in with the hotels, offices, and retail developed on the shipyards.
The jail and sheriff's office could be moved elsewhere (perhaps out on Clifford Lane where the current AmShack is.. plenty of land there and surrounded mostly by industry)
The jail isn't so bad because it is setback from the street nearly 250 feet. What needs to happen is to simply block to view from the street. I would tear down that ugly brutalism JSO building and replace that entire side of the street with a 3 story line of buildings which includes a new JSO space, ground floor retail, and residential units fronting Bay. The Maxwell House plant can easily be incorporated into the streetscape and could even take on an industrial tourism role. Heck, that whole section of street could be The Coffee District with multiple coffee houses. It could become what Jax is known for around the world.
Would love to see a new Armada FC stadium integrated into these plans.
Quote from: goldy21 on February 23, 2015, 12:35:17 PM
Would love to see a new Armada FC stadium integrated into these plans.
I would personally rather see the Armada FC stadium in Brooklyn where it could be within walking distance of restaurants and existing high-density housing. It would make a great game-day atmosphere.
I'm so sick and tired of hearing about the jail talk. Look at what's in front of the jail THE FREAKING POLICE DEPARTMENT!!! Never mind that though. Because there are plenty of instances of harden criminals released from jail accosting and kidnapping Berkman residents... If I considered moving into the Shipyards residence, I would absolutely have NO concern about the jail at all; Maybe they are some that will have concerns, but they will be plenty of others that will not. A jail/ police dept downtown amongst development isn't unique. Far as the shipyards potentially becoming 'a Landing situation' way down the road, I thought that was a good point. My concern is attraction novelty wearing off moreso than 'an inviting Bay Street'.
Quote from: vicupstate on February 23, 2015, 04:34:28 AM
So what time is the 'big reveal' and will there be a play by play from MJ?
Looks like tomorrow at 3...
http://www.coj.net/departments/downtown-investment-authority/docs/20150224_dia-board-meeting-agenda-packet.aspx
Quote from: I-10east on February 23, 2015, 01:10:37 PM
I'm so sick and tired of hearing about the jail talk. Look at what's in front of the jail THE FREAKING POLICE DEPARTMENT!!! Never mind that though. Because there are plenty of instances of harden criminals released from jail accosting and kidnapping Berkman residents... If I considered moving into the Shipyards residence, I would absolutely have NO concern about the jail at all; Maybe they are some that will have concerns, but they will be plenty of others that will not.
I see the jail's location more as an eyesore/too close to the riverfront kind of issue.
Have there been any estimates of the quantity of uses (order-of-magnitude at this conceptual phase of plan development) for apartment/condo units, hotel rooms, office, retail, sports, etc square feet? I would be concerned that this project developed as a "single phase" could suck up all the demand in the area and make other downtown projects no longer sufficiently supported by market demand. This project could have the "mojo" to alter the attraction of downtown versus other competitive N FL locations, but only to a degree. Some truly iconic architecture as referenced by the Sydney Opera House would contribute to that ability, but nothing of that quality is yet shown in these plans. Hopefully yet to be revealed.
I cringe when I hear the phrase "iconic architecture' because it always seems to be more about a specific building instead of place making - and place making in Jax is in very short supply. I would rather the area be 'iconic' in the macro sense, not the micro. The world is litter with piece of crap architecture that was passed off as iconic by some hack architect or developer and not a single person can tell where any of it is located just by seeing an image of it.
Quote from: neptune on February 23, 2015, 02:08:38 PM
Have there been any estimates of the quantity of uses (order-of-magnitude at this conceptual phase of plan development) for apartment/condo units, hotel rooms, office, retail, sports, etc square feet? I would be concerned that this project developed as a "single phase" could suck up all the demand in the area and make other downtown projects no longer sufficiently supported by market demand. This project could have the "mojo" to alter the attraction of downtown versus other competitive N FL locations, but only to a degree. Some truly iconic architecture as referenced by the Sydney Opera House would contribute to that ability, but nothing of that quality is yet shown in these plans. Hopefully yet to be revealed.
I don't think there's any way it's gonna be done in a single phase...hopefully single master plan and single vision, but not a single phase. No need to worry about that. And I'd imagine such a development would probably require and even attract one or two major corporate relos to anchor the site. I hope Khan's mojo will work with all the folks in western europe. I think it will.
Quote from: Kerry on February 23, 2015, 02:38:32 PM
I cringe when I hear the phrase "iconic architecture' because it always seems to be more about a specific building instead of place making - and place making in Jax is in very short supply. I would rather the area be 'iconic' in the macro sense, not the micro. The world is litter with piece of crap architecture that was passed off as iconic by some hack architect or developer and not a single person can tell where any of it is located just by seeing an image of it.
The way I see it, there's the scene already has something iconic sitting in the middle of it.
(http://jacksonville.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/superphoto/Maxwell0718ART.jpg)
It's been apart of the East Bay Street scene for over 100 years. Jax should cherish it....
In terms of attracting western companies, think how Kahn has worked in the past with the stadium. Usually by time it's announced it's a done deal. Probably has some preliminary agreements in place. But using good business sense, would never announce until all was in place with the city in terms of RFP's, finance and land remediation.
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on February 23, 2015, 02:48:54 PM
Quote from: neptune on February 23, 2015, 02:08:38 PM
Have there been any estimates of the quantity of uses (order-of-magnitude at this conceptual phase of plan development) for apartment/condo units, hotel rooms, office, retail, sports, etc square feet? I would be concerned that this project developed as a "single phase" could suck up all the demand in the area and make other downtown projects no longer sufficiently supported by market demand. This project could have the "mojo" to alter the attraction of downtown versus other competitive N FL locations, but only to a degree. Some truly iconic architecture as referenced by the Sydney Opera House would contribute to that ability, but nothing of that quality is yet shown in these plans. Hopefully yet to be revealed.
I don't think there's any way it's gonna be done in a single phase...hopefully single master plan and single vision, but not a single phase. No need to worry about that. And I'd imagine such a development would probably require and even attract one or two major corporate relos to anchor the site. I hope Khan's mojo will work with all the folks in western europe. I think it will.
I don't see how it can be done in a single phase either, and when I saw that stated it undermined the credibility of the whole thing. If downtown were truly revived already, that might have a LITTLE bit of cred, but it has none in this situation.
I would argue the town center was pretty much done in a single phase. The "true" town center, not the "markets at town center." Sure, they've added to it, but it was successful before all that.
It's hard to compare the development of a single floor shopping and strip mall with a mixed use infill development project like the Shipyards. The expansion of SJTC is no different from the incremental expansions of Gateway and Regency, decades earlier. So far, the SJTC has had three major phases of development over the course of a 9 year period. The first phase was the power center anchored by Target and the strip of shops anchored by Dillard's and Dick's. It opened around 2005. The second phase came a few years later, bringing in upscale shops and a cluster of restaurants near JTB. The most recent phase is the Nordstrom's wing. It opened in late 2014.
Wasn't the World Golf Hall of Fame one phase? I feel like that would be the closest comparison, although not a good example of a successful development.
World Golf Hall of Fame doesn't appear to have ever been completed.
I think this thing would absolutely have to come up in one phase. How are you going to lure a corporate headquarters to a brownfield across the street from a jail and next to a crumbling condominium? Especially considering the history of this site and DT Jax, why would anyone believe that all of the other phases are ever going to happen? Does anyone believe they'll ever put any ground-floor retail in that new DT parking garage?
I don't see why or how it can't be done in one phase either. The residential, office, and retail would all need each other to be successful.
Can someone give me examples of projects of this magnitude, or for that matter half this size, that occurred in one phase, excluding NYC, Chicago, LA?
Projects that are strictly public works would not count.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=544944
So Khan just wants the land, clean up of the land and some tax breaks..this is such a city friendly deal. the shipyard land cost 28 mil and the clean up cost 35 mil.
Sorry for the ignorance, but what does this mean?
"The company also wants all Tax Increment Funding from the development and potentially state and federal funding for the project."
I see I'm a little late as the JaxDailyRecord article came out, however, this was going to be my response to latest discussion (and imo 99% of this is still applicable). $35M for cleanup and remediation of an industrial shipyards/waterfront site that large seems like a small number, though. TIF funding won't be nearly enough for this kind of project. And investors still have to have confidence that tax values will come through - this is Jacksonville we're talking about where not only are there market forces, but also political forces against taxes.
TIF in a nutshell is issuing a bond for today based on future tax value/revenue. That's an oversimplification, but it's basically paying for a project now using future tax revenues generated by having the project built (this includes supposed future tax revenues of neighboring properties in a defined district that see a lift in value by having the project built). But there has to be a group of investors willing to buy that bond - there is no credit precedence for such a thing in Jax, to my knowledge. Investors are going on good faith and it won't be a "cheap" bond as a result. A TIF district likely has to be created. A ratings agency will end up involved. All a step in the right direction. :)
This project won't be one phase, nor will it be "crossed" into one parent JV between the same group of parties (in Jax?). IF this thing gets done, there will be multiple, likely building by building, phases and multiple development groups. In a sense it won't be all that different from an incrementally/organically developed Shipyards that some, including myself, have advocated for.
Think about it. There are only a few groups in the entire world in the grand scheme of things that can write $100M+ equity checks for single real estate investments in a single market, or those kinds of checks period (not that a building in this development will necessarily require that large of a commitment...maybe $25-50M at most...which also implies that there will be a debt stack for this, another set of players who need to get comfortable). And only a portion of those can write checks for ground up development (and even then, someone who can write a check for a new office building likely can't write a check for a new hotel). And only a portion of those can go to a city like Jacksonville. And only a portion of those can go to downtown Jacksonville, specifically.
Maybe there will be EB-5 funding, or some sort of similar scheme (which will require some sort of guaranty...what if the thing doesn't end up getting built, and so even if you have a sponsor not coming out of pocket to the extent it normally would, you need a sponsor that can provide that guaranty).
And don't forget, there will have to be some level of crossing, further complicating the deal. There's a public use component, and likely a public funding component. There will be some sort of legal framework for a master plan / development that legally binds separate parties together and merges separate intents, conflicts of interest, etc (i.e. something along the lines of a Master Assoc, which becomes super complicated once you introduce residential condominiums into the mix).
For precedence, there are projects of this size that do happen in the larger cities. But they don't happen frequently and they aren't any less complex. But it's easier to find a demand for these projects in these cities, there are far more players writing those kinds of equity checks (it's easily a $100M++ equity check just to build a single skyscraper in NYC or SF, or land alone!), and there have been decades of such projects in these cities. Even so, even in NYC, Chicago, SF, Boston, or DC, it could take 10-20 years to build out such a crossed/mixed use/master-planned project on politically contentious highly public land using any sort of public funding or variance to zoning (with that many ego'd parties sitting at the same table standing to benefit, or lose). And that's with precedence in place.
In terms of phases - here's the difference between this and a similar master-planned thing going up in DC. In DC, there is a light at end of tunnel / a concrete vision for buildout and a publicly known and accepted demand. A building might be surrounded by dirt for a couple of years, but it's a fact that it won't be that way for long. In Jax, this is not the case. So there's a tug of war between multi-phase and leaving dirt around buildings in Jacksonville with the scary thought that it may actually forever be dirt (and then I picture a Revel Casino financial scenario for the project), or finding the impossible scenario where this all gets done as 1 phase in Jax with the risk that a lot of it sits empty for a while and default on multiple loans is practically ensured.
Now, as 1 phase, think about the size and scope of the current office market / apartment market / condo market / hotel / retail and restaurant market in DT Jax. Now add 10-50% for each kind of product in one fell swoop. THAT's what never happens, no matter the boom (Austin, Miami, Toronto, etc...as boomy as they are aren't purposefully adding 10% of the existing office stock in a year or 50% of the condo existing condo supply in a year or two).
There are a lot of nearly impossible uphill battles for this. Good luck to Khan, but I want to hear more specifics about what iterations are proposed for the site (what mix of uses, what scopes). Besides Populous, a firm that focuses 99% of design efforts to stadiums or sports district master planning, what other firms with experience and capability are presently involved or who may become involved.
Honestly, Khan needs to be talking to a RE or FIN or alternative Banking division and a good legal team for product / transactional expertise to learn how he can raise funds (Khan's team has guys on speed dial I'm sure), and some private equity / hedge fund groups (and maybe a Park Hill). I'm sure he is, but I want to know that he is. Nothing's serious until you know who Khan's talking to about this, and if THOSE are serious names. Remember, as I said before, Khan is many things, but he is not a real estate developer, a finance guy, a lawyer, a CIVIL engineer, an architect, etc etc.
Quote from: simms3 on February 23, 2015, 06:37:59 PM
All a step in the right direction. :)
I'm so confused. This must be some sort of sarcasm that I don't understand. ;)
So when are you moving back?
So he wants us the city to give him our land for free, pay to clean up that land, and give him all the taxes it generates, and still be on the hook for any future issues. Okay, y'all.
Quote from: Tacachale on February 23, 2015, 07:29:10 PM
So he wants us the city to give him our land for free, pay to clean up that land, and give him all the taxes it generates, and still be on the hook for any future issues. Okay, y'all.
Better than let it sit empty for who knows how long...no wonder this city is not moving forward, with thinking like this..
^^at least we may have something to show for it Unlike the mayor that failed miserably with the TriLegacy debacle.
Quote from: simms3 on February 23, 2015, 06:37:59 PM
TIF in a nutshell is issuing a bond for today based on future tax value/revenue. That's an oversimplification, but it's basically paying for a project now using future tax revenues generated by having the project built (this includes supposed future tax revenues of neighboring properties in a defined district that see a lift in value by having the project built). But there has to be a group of investors willing to buy that bond - there is no credit precedence for such a thing in Jax, to my knowledge. Investors are going on good faith and it won't be a "cheap" bond as a result. A TIF district likely has to be created. A ratings agency will end up involved. All a step in the right direction. :)
The DIA is a TIF, so Khan may simply be asking for the TIF that this project is projected to generate to go back to the development/financiers rather than into the general TIF fund for other DT projects. This wouldn't be very different from the city's REV Grant, which has been used on similar projects. 220 Riverside for instance got a $4.9 grant based on projected future tax gains.
^^^Yes. That's what I gathered as well. And it's a reasonable request. Are Shipyards presently part of DIA's TIF district? The Shipyards could easily be its own district - one would have to look no further than Atlantic Station in Atlanta for nearby precedence (and another example of a large scale master-planned mixed-use infill development on former brownfield).
Your quote on what 220 Riverside received indicates to me that this is not a strong funding source in Jax, presently. It's just another layer in a project's capital stack (as it is anywhere...TIF by no means alone gets a project done or puts members of an investment committee somehow on board with a plan). It does show city commitment.
Quote from: Rynjny on February 23, 2015, 07:33:52 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on February 23, 2015, 07:29:10 PM
So he wants us the city to give him our land for free, pay to clean up that land, and give him all the taxes it generates, and still be on the hook for any future issues. Okay, y'all.
Better than let it sit empty for who knows how long...no wonder this city is not moving forward, with thinking like this..
Agreed, if there is a concrete plan for getting something done. This is the ONLY option, at this point and likely in general, and I'm still not sure it's even real yet.
The Shipyards is within the Downtown CRA. Creating a new CRA/TIF District is time consuming and a major undertaking.
I'm pretty sure the existing CRA was created with projects like The Shipyards in mind. In fact, I think its pretty safe to assume that Khan and his team were involved in the process. I'm skimming the CRA Plan right now and see a section that says when $100 million of private capital investment is exceeded, a project has to meet some general qualifications in order to receive the maximum incentives. Khan won't have any trouble meeting that requirement.
You're right, the REV Grant is by no means a way to entirely fund a project, but it can help plug a gap where normal market conditions can't support a type of development. Its also a relatively fair way to dole out incentives for a major project.
Lets just get the ball rolling. The City needs to get a RFP out there and lets just watch all the proposals roll in! NOT. So then the City can either decide to work with somene who can likely get it done or just let it sit like this for another 25 years. And everybody can stop with relating any cost of remediation as a give away to Khan. That will be required regardless if Khan or it just sit there empty for the next 25 years.
This is a chance to actually have significant private money invested in our downtown..(Northbank) When was the last time that happened? The Godbold mayorship?
Quote from: thelakelander on February 23, 2015, 05:02:02 PM
World Golf Hall of Fame doesn't appear to have ever been completed.
I seem to remember there being a talked about retail expansion of the World Golf Village about 15 years ago. But I agree. I feel like that first part was built, most of it failing miserably, and they just gave up.
I'm a bit torn. I really really want this to happen, and I'm all for higher taxes to support progress and better quality of life, but the cost to the city does seem pretty steep. I dunno, I keep going back and forth.
Quote from: vicupstate on February 23, 2015, 05:47:42 PM
Can someone give me examples of projects of this magnitude, or for that matter half this size, that occurred in one phase, excluding NYC, Chicago, LA?
Projects that are strictly public works would not count.
48-acre site
1 million square feet of office space
100,000 square feet of commercial space
662 residential units
350 hotel roomsWell, I'm sure in SF, DC, etc. But not in Jax...probably not anywhere with less than 3-4 million population, I'd imagine, except Vegas cause it's Vegas.
Interesting points after reading the full term sheet available on the TU.
-City to pay for environmental cleanup up to 35mil,
-bulkhead improvements and maintenance,
-infastructure pertaining to bay street,
-the Riverwalk improvement and extension,
-public park portions and
-Hogans Creek improvements up to Liberty St.
Also:
-City 20%/Iguana 80% land sale profits
-Shipyards to be rezoned, free of mobility fees forever.
-Shipyards keeps all TIF futures generated.
-City required to fill 5+ acres of land according to an existing agreement?? DEP Pemit #16-192176-003-EI
I still feel this may be the best deal the city may get, but I must admit it's hard to see the city commit funds to the extent of Hogans Creek redo and filling in 5 acres of waterfront on top of only seeing profits in the way of net land sale profit. I believe the long term benefits will make up for cost at some point but it is a steep price the city must agree to. Its time to put up or shut up. Someone correct me if I missed anything, but do you guys feel the city can fund said obligations?
If so, without a raise in taxes, how are they funded?
I also don't understand this line:
QuoteEnvironmental cleanup from the city would not exceed $35 million — if it does go past that amount, Iguana can terminate the agreement.
So if the cost to the city to decontaminate exceeds the agreed upon amount, the developers can decide not to build anymore?
Quote from: Rynjny on February 23, 2015, 07:33:52 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on February 23, 2015, 07:29:10 PM
So he wants us the city to give him our land for free, pay to clean up that land, and give him all the taxes it generates, and still be on the hook for any future issues. Okay, y'all.
Better than let it sit empty for who knows how long...no wonder this city is not moving forward, with thinking like this..
Our tendency to wait around for big sexy projects to turn things around is a much bigger problem for us, methinks.
Quote from: edjax on February 23, 2015, 07:34:28 PM
^^at least we may have something to show for it Unlike the mayor that failed miserably with the TriLegacy debacle.
Fortunately, the deal with Trilegacy ensured that the City got the Shipyards after the development failed (meaning, when Trilegacy defrauded the city). If this one fails, we still get an empty lot... that we don't own anymore, but that can still send us the bill for future environmental issues.
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on February 23, 2015, 10:10:04 PM
I also don't understand this line: QuoteEnvironmental cleanup from the city would not exceed $35 million — if it does go past that amount, Iguana can terminate the agreement.
So if the cost to the city to decontaminate exceeds the agreed upon amount, the developers can decide not to build anymore?
All the articles so far are full of red flags like that. Perhaps tomorrow's news cycle will be clearer.
Wow. Tryimg to put a positive spin on the TriLegacy. Poor mayoral oversight. Millions and millions lost. Nice try.
Quote from: edjax on February 23, 2015, 10:35:51 PM
Wow. Tryimg to put a positive spin on the TriLegacy. Poor mayoral oversight. Millions and millions lost. Nice try.
There have been far worse things to occur in many cities across the country. Trilegacy was a classic example of a cold storage business owner trying to do real estate on a grand scale as many a doctor/lawyer/dentist attempts to do on a smaller scale and getting in over his skis. Keep in mind that Trilegacy did line up a decent hedge fund as a partner (if I recall) and in 2000 that project was assumed to be a 10 year $860M project. Amplify those figures for what Khan is proposing now.
Quote from: edjax on February 23, 2015, 10:35:51 PM
Wow. Tryimg to put a positive spin on the TriLegacy. Poor mayoral oversight. Millions and millions lost. Nice try.
I don't think it's spin - it's what happened. The city didn't own the land before the deal, TriLegacy did. They gave TriLegacy $38 million that went somewhere (who really knows). However, after that happened, the city got the land.
Effectively, the city paid $38 million for some land.
In terms of the environmental cleanup, that's a nut that we're going to have to eat if we ever want that developed. I'm not sure any developer is going to take contaminated land.
48 acres and only 662 residential units?
Quote from: Steve on February 23, 2015, 10:41:54 PM
Quote from: edjax on February 23, 2015, 10:35:51 PM
Wow. Tryimg to put a positive spin on the TriLegacy. Poor mayoral oversight. Millions and millions lost. Nice try.
I don't think it's spin - it's what happened. The city didn't own the land before the deal, TriLegacy did. They gave TriLegacy $38 million that went somewhere (who really knows). However, after that happened, the city got the land.
Effectively, the city paid $38 million for some land.
And the 35 million to clean it up. Anywy you look at it the city did not handle it properly.
In red
Quote from: Marle Brando on February 23, 2015, 10:08:17 PM
Interesting points after reading the full term sheet available on the TU.
-City to pay for environmental cleanup up to 35mil, Up to is key - I think that's a low number and leaves a lot of public risk on the table - this will be negotiated down
-bulkhead improvements and maintenance,
-infastructure pertaining to bay street,
-the Riverwalk improvement and extension,
-public park portions and
-Hogans Creek improvements up to Liberty St.
Also:
-City 20%/Iguana 80% land sale profits Just as I thought - Khan's going to parcel off the Shipyards to developers. Presumably developers. It'll be interesting to hear about all the other limitations here, and honestly, I'm not comfortable with an 80-20 split here. I don't believe that Khan is taking on nearly 80% of the risk here, especially if he's not actually the one developing the whole thing. If he wants to negotiate other deals for himself in separate JVs with other partners for the land he sells off, then fine, but the city should negotiate a 50-50 split on land profits. To Khan it's essentially free money - he's not putting anything into the land, yet, before sale, like the city is doing. At the end of the day, though, this is basically worthless land. We aren't talking much money here compared to everything else related to this deal. I foresee Khan getting land for free, having the city essentially prep it to be developed at city cost, Khan flipping it into a New Co with some other partner(s) and contributing the land as part of his basis, maybe requiring other partners to fund go forward, and this is Khan's way of staying in a deal and making some money. It's free equity for Khan and if it pans out, what that looks like is $0 spent, $10M earned, almost like what is called a promote, except via technicality Khan contributes something - land - that he got for free.
-Shipyards to be rezoned, free of mobility fees forever. Never make anything forever. Duh
-Shipyards keeps all TIF futures generated. Ok - so back to my other question - are there more than 1 TIF district? or are they saying that they will package a bond for the Shipyards based on future tax revenues across all of downtown and nobody else, even future developers of other sites, get a penny? Needs more color here
-City required to fill 5+ acres of land according to an existing agreement?? DEP Pemit #16-192176-003-EI Ha! I knew it...those renderings were too robust to be true, lol. 5 acres is not small.
I still feel this may be the best deal the city may get, but I must admit it's hard to see the city commit funds to the extent of Hogans Creek redo and filling in 5 acres of waterfront on top of only seeing profits in the way of net land sale profit. I believe the long term benefits will make up for cost at some point but it is a steep price the city must agree to. Its time to put up or shut up. Someone correct me if I missed anything, but do you guys feel the city can fund said obligations?
If so, without a raise in taxes, how are they funded?
This is not the final iteration, by any means. I wouldn't be surprised if we're looking at 15+ years of project, 3 of those being working out some of these preliminary details. And I REALLY hope the city's foot forward now is to spend $$$ on a great legal team from another city (NOT Jax, no offense). $$$ for a big city firm/team will pay off in a better deal for the city without ruining the deal. Khan will certainly be doing the same.
Quote from: Steve on February 23, 2015, 10:41:54 PM
Quote from: edjax on February 23, 2015, 10:35:51 PM
Wow. Tryimg to put a positive spin on the TriLegacy. Poor mayoral oversight. Millions and millions lost. Nice try.
I don't think it's spin - it's what happened. The city didn't own the land before the deal, TriLegacy did. They gave TriLegacy $38 million that went somewhere (who really knows). However, after that happened, the city got the land.
Effectively, the city paid $38 million for some land.
That works out to less than $1M an acre, low even for DT Jax standards. :)
Quote from: iMarvin on February 23, 2015, 10:43:00 PM
48 acres and only 662 residential units?
A huge portion of this is set aside for public space. Plus there is 1 million sf office (equivalent to 1.5 BofA buildings). This is 1 million sf of residential, with garage (equivalent to Strand + Peninsula, or 3 Berkman Plazas). That hotel is easily another 400-500k sf or more with meeting space, significant food/beverage and entertainment area (another Omni + more meeting space).
Let's call it 3 million sf in low to mid-rise buildings including garages. That's significant. That's basically 10-15+% of all of what's existing downtown now across all uses excl hospital/government. No downtown is presently doing that in any time frame less than 5 years. Really really large cities that are booming do that in 15-30 years time. I'm of course talking about the time of construction, not the all-in. I don't think we can expect any other projects on the horizon, so if we're talking 5 years to plan/formation and 5 years of buildout, then consider it 5 years to increase downtown by a very significant portion.
For perspective, adding rental apartment units to a growing sunbelt city is tracked whereby 3-5% of existing inventory UC at any given time is booming (Houston/Dallas for instance). That might translate to 7-16% over a 5 year period. But that's rentals. Much less risky from a development perspective because you can finance them and hold onto them for a long time. You can sacrifice yields in some years to ride out a cycle and make return on exit.
Condos/office/hotels have far more inherent risks, in my opinion. Nobody's adding 10% of their existing office stock in a single development/<5 year timeframe at this point.
Quote from: Steve on February 23, 2015, 10:42:37 PM
In terms of the environmental cleanup, that's a nut that we're going to have to eat if we ever want that developed. I'm not sure any developer is going to take contaminated land.
They won't. Especially not in Jacksonville. That's City land that requires a City cleanup.
Also, one thing to consider is that if you parlay predev/preparation costs to developers and require them to build the riverwalk, pay for remediation and cleanup, etc etc, they'll never be able to pencil their developments.
To get office in downtown Jax, WITH free land and average to below average construction costs, and attractive financing which won't happen in a market like Jax, they'll need to charge $25-27+psf rents, which is already higher than anything in town.
Also note that the Strand sold to Crescent Heights for $181k/door, a record for Jax with a huge gap to 2nd place, and a price based on in-place rents and of course market risks (likely a higher cap rate). Even at a lower cap rate (and I know the occupancy was very high, and Crescent received very favorable financing), I can piece together the math in my head that Jax rents for luxe high rise apartments aren't truly where they need to be for new construction these days. So that's an obstacle.
Condos - I think we all know there. Jax is not a condo market. Certainly not a luxe/waterfront condo market. I believe many of the Jax residents who have money and hometown pride already bought condos in the Peninsula. That really saved that building, but the market's certainly not deep beyond that.
Hotels? News article after news article on local hotel defaults, management issues, ownership changes after poor performance, articles putting Jax in last place for hotel markets, etc etc. And we still haven't seen movement on any other proposals. This will be the last thing to go up if I had to guess. Jax downtown hotel market is hardly deep at all and everything is at a low basis since everything has already been foreclosed on, and yet still new owners can't get the rates they need or the occupancy they need. That's a serious issue caused by other fundamental issues that plague Jax/downtown - a sign that there's not a lot of business, no tourism, not enough things going on, etc.
So at the end of the day, I think Khan wants to ensure that he CAN sell the land to developers - I actually think exactly as I said before, Khan wants to give land away as his version of an equity stake/contribution so that there's no basis in the land and the City has already prepped the whole site for development. THAT might be the only way any of this gets done.
Can't wait to hear the responses to this proposal...
Simms, that breakdown was everything bro. It makes sense that Khan's partnership with other outside developers will involve free land. Can't say I blame him, it's business afterall. And I too am a little uneasy with the 80/20 split in net land sell profits. Hopefully the city can get that number closer to 65/35.
Quote from: edjax on February 23, 2015, 10:48:58 PM
Quote from: Steve on February 23, 2015, 10:41:54 PM
Quote from: edjax on February 23, 2015, 10:35:51 PM
Wow. Tryimg to put a positive spin on the TriLegacy. Poor mayoral oversight. Millions and millions lost. Nice try.
I don't think it's spin - it's what happened. The city didn't own the land before the deal, TriLegacy did. They gave TriLegacy $38 million that went somewhere (who really knows). However, after that happened, the city got the land.
Effectively, the city paid $38 million for some land.
And the 35 million to clean it up. Anywy you look at it the city did not handle it properly.
There's no spin: the developer defrauded the city, but even still the city got the land after it happened. But more to the point, we still don't know would happen if
this deal were to go through and then, somehow, didn't pan out. It's totally possible that we'd still have an empty lot we'd be on the hook for, but we wouldn't own it or have any say what happened next.
This is the largest project in downtown Miami. Almost all 3 towers are topped off. this project is over 1 billion
http://brickellcitycentreconnect.com
The highlights of the project include:
9.1 acres along South Miami Avenue between Eighth Street and Sixth Street
5.4 million square feet of office, residential, hotel, retail and entertainment space, in addition to a two-level underground parking garage that spans seven acres below the property
An environmentally progressive Climate Ribbon™ architectural feature that will provide innovative climate control so shoppers can walk in comfort between stores and restaurants
Incorporates key transportation centers with the Miami Metromover while offering easy access to Interstate 95
^(http://brickellcitycentreconnect.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/BCC-Wire-Diagram-10-01-2014.jpg)
Quote from: edjax on February 23, 2015, 10:35:51 PM
Wow. Tryimg to put a positive spin on the TriLegacy. Poor mayoral oversight. Millions and millions lost. Nice try.
+1
We are going to need a midnight email for an EXTRA, EXTRA mil or two not only from the DIA Board but the city council too.
One of the interesting points brought up is that if this were to happen, we likely aren't seeing much office/residential/hotel for a while, since we'll need to wait on the absorption of this space.
The one exception might be hotel-IF the city builds the convention center. I think with this development and a convention center, Jacksonville can transform very quickly into a pretty decent convention city.
Without getting into the weeds, this is an extraordinarily bad deal for the City as currently drafted. It places all of the risk and upfront cost on the City with all (OK, the vast majority of it) of the upside (profit) going to Khan. He will receive the property with very few obligations other than to act as a broker by selling the parcels to others to develop. Understanding the challenges of developing downtown and the softness of the market, it's likely that this land will sit vacant for many years to come with the only outcome being that the City has given away the land. If we're lucky, we might get a football practice field built on prime riverfront property that does very little to improve the experience of everyday Jacksonville residents or even tourists...and I don't believe for a second that he'll build the practice facility as depicted in the presentation. Can you say "Value Engineering?"
Question to Simms or anyone with insight:
If the city simply paid out of it's own pocket (which is exactly what Khan is proposing) to clean up the site and complete the Riverwalk, and then RFPed the site, what kind of response would they get? Would the city still have to give away the site or could it expect at least some payment for the land?
If the city had to pay the aforementioned bills and still had to give it away, it would at least still get the taxes revenues that would come later.
I don't see how this flies when the only way to recoup millions of city expenditures is 20% of future land sales, considering the first few sales will likely be relative bargains.
This is a very big pill to swallow, IMO.
^If were just going to divide it up and sell it off, we could do it ourselves and keep 100% of the profit and 100% of the tax revenues, instead of 20% and 0%.
Quote from: Tacachale on February 24, 2015, 09:50:32 AM
^If were just going to divide it up and sell it off, we could do it ourselves and keep 100% of the profit and 100% of the tax revenues, instead of 20% and 0%.
Taca, the city has already stated that there's no interest in dividing up the parcel.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 24, 2015, 09:52:46 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on February 24, 2015, 09:50:32 AM
^If were just going to divide it up and sell it off, we could do it ourselves and keep 100% of the profit and 100% of the tax revenues, instead of 20% and 0%.
Taca, the city has already stated that there's no interest in dividing up the parcel.
There is no "interest" because Shad Khan is guiding the process and playing puppetmaster.
I do agree with Taca that the city could act as master developer and keep 100% of profits. However, I think in that scenario just about anyone would seek property tax abatements of some sort. I think pretty much everyone is asking for the REV Grant from COJ these days. I don't think Khan should be punished for being wealthy and should qualify for abatements just as any old Joe would. However, I do think that the 80-20 proposition is ridiculous. That needs to get a lot closer to 50% before the city takes it on....unless of course Khan has a few aces up his sleeve (like a major corporate relocation).
The City's basis in the Shipyards is the $36.5M given to TriLegacy. That's it. It owns the Shipyards strictly as a secured creditor (oh, and under state and federal regs, as a secured creditor, it becomes entirely liable for the contamination if it does not actively try to convey the property in a commercial feasible manner).
Under Khan's proposal, the City's basis in the property is $36.5M plus whatever capital costs Khan is seeking. Seems to me, the 20% that goes to the City plus future tax revenues eventually covers the City's basis in the property.
If the City breaks even on this deal, it's a win. That property has been idle for far too long.
Quote from: CityLife on February 24, 2015, 10:00:55 AM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 24, 2015, 09:52:46 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on February 24, 2015, 09:50:32 AM
^If were just going to divide it up and sell it off, we could do it ourselves and keep 100% of the profit and 100% of the tax revenues, instead of 20% and 0%.
Taca, the city has already stated that there's no interest in dividing up the parcel.
There is no "interest" because Shad Khan is guiding the process and playing puppetmaster.
I do agree with Taca that the city could act as master developer and keep 100% of profits. However, I think in that scenario just about anyone would seek property tax abatements of some sort. I think pretty much everyone is asking for the REV Grant from COJ these days. I don't think Khan should be punished for being wealthy and should qualify for abatements just as any old Joe would. However, I do think that the 80-20 proposition is ridiculous. That needs to get a lot closer to 50% before the city takes it on....unless of course Khan has a few aces up his sleeve (like a major corporate relocation).
LMAO as City as master developer.
Here's what stands out to me the most: TriLagacy et al wanted cash-in-hand and up front before doing anything. Per my understanding, Iguana is asking for permission to use the land as they see fit AFTER the city pays for the remediation of the contamination. Face it, the city's going to be on the hook for that initial cost regardless. And now we have a real life "Field of Dreams" scenario.
Worst case scenario is the city pays to clean up the property and then Iguana backs out of the deal altogether. Now we're left with an uncontaminated parcel of property on the riverfront. To me, it's a win-win. At least we're not being asked to shell out $50M upfront to a developer to use at their own discretion.
Quote from: JaxArchitect on February 24, 2015, 09:38:30 AM
Can you say "Value Engineering?"
I don't disagree with much in your post except for the last statement.
I'm pretty damn familiar with it. I can say it. And I have worked around it my entire career.
BUT....
In the short time that he's been here, though, please name one thing that Khan has done with VE in mind? Everything to date has been absolute top notch. The kind of person everyone envies to work for: This is what I want, make it happen, send me an invoice.
I get the pessimism, but this guy has given me no reason to think otherwise yet.
Quote from: CityLife on February 24, 2015, 10:00:55 AM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 24, 2015, 09:52:46 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on February 24, 2015, 09:50:32 AM
^If were just going to divide it up and sell it off, we could do it ourselves and keep 100% of the profit and 100% of the tax revenues, instead of 20% and 0%.
Taca, the city has already stated that there's no interest in dividing up the parcel.
There is no "interest" because Shad Khan is guiding the process and playing puppetmaster.
I do agree with Taca that the city could act as master developer and keep 100% of profits. However, I think in that scenario just about anyone would seek property tax abatements of some sort. I think pretty much everyone is asking for the REV Grant from COJ these days. I don't think Khan should be punished for being wealthy and should qualify for abatements just as any old Joe would. However, I do think that the 80-20 proposition is ridiculous. That needs to get a lot closer to 50% before the city takes it on....unless of course Khan has a few aces up his sleeve (like a major corporate relocation).
I'm certainly not saying dividing it up is what they *should* do (in fact, I don't think it is). But it sounds like it's more or less what this plan entails, just with Iguana taking control of the land - and keeping most of the profits.
Quote from: CityLife on February 24, 2015, 10:00:55 AM
The city could act as master developer and keep 100% of profits.
To me, this is the absolute
worst case scenario for the Shipyards.
Completely agree with NRW above ^
Assuming the city is competent enough to manage the cleanup (a big assumption, I concede), we win either way.
Worst case scenario is that we get a clean piece of riverfront property and a riverwalk extension.
Plus, I can't imagine the terms presented in Khan's non-binding proposal will be the final terms.
Certainly the city can negotiate a 60-40 split.
Quote from: Tacachale on February 24, 2015, 10:31:56 AM
just with Iguana taking control of the land - and keeping most of the profits.
My analogy (I could be totally off-base, but this is how I understand it)
Taca, you have a very sick pig. So I come to you and tell you that this pig could be the centerpiece of the entire farm if you let me take it under my wing for a while. First, I want you to pay for the medicine that will heal your pig. After your pig is well, I may change mind, but at least you have a healthy pig instead of a sick one.
I'll probably do what I say, so when I'm done, even though it's essentially my pig, I will let you use this pig to enhance your entire farm's image, but if I decide to take your pig to the butcher, I'll still let you claim that the parts are yours, but I'm going to take 80% off the top to cover my initial expense and put a little change in my pocket. You can keep the rest.
Off the top of my head there are some parts that I would be focusing on if I were negotiating the deal, and understand I have very little actual knowledge of how the TIF is structured and any other tax-abatement strategies that may be used/requested:
Allowing the TIF to be repurposed solely into the project is a great idea as long as it's continuously used to maintain/enhance the public aspect of things. Park upkeep, newly required salaries, etc... I wouldn't want to see it used to pay for private enhancements.
Setting a time-limit on any tax rebates that accelerate the moment the property changes hands. The property can't cost the city forever.
Using this development as a springboard for some actual transit oriented plans into the area. Whether it be streetcar (least expensive) or finishing another 2 legs of the Skyway (preferred by me), so be it, but it needs to be part of the plan.
Setting aside a portion of any monies to be allocated to the Hogan Creek remediation/tie in. It is being used as part of the overall plan, but there needs to be some sort of direct funding tied into the project to actually bring it to fruition, otherwise I see it as a selling point only and never as an actual commitment.
Quote from: KenFSU on February 24, 2015, 10:36:27 AM
Quote from: CityLife on February 24, 2015, 10:00:55 AM
The city could act as master developer and keep 100% of profits.
To me, this is the absolute worst case scenario for the Shipyards.
Completely agree with NRW above ^
Assuming the city is competent enough to manage the cleanup (a big assumption, I concede), we win either way.
Worst case scenario is that we get a clean piece of riverfront property and a riverwalk extension.
Plus, I can't imagine the terms presented in Khan's non-binding proposal will be the final terms.
Certainly the city can negotiate a 60-40 split.
I didn't say the city should act as master developer, just that it could in the event that Khan tries to completely jerk the city around for an 80/20 split. Simply playing devil's advocate.
The real question though is what is Khan going to actually deliver in order to be granted the opportunity to capture 80% of profits? If that entails him spending hundreds of million on the project and/or bringing in big time outside players that the city would not otherwise be able to, I can understand giving up the gains. However, if he wants carte blanche to do whatever, without any promises or assurances to the city, I have a problem with it.
^This all may be a moot point, as I have a hunch that he has an ace or two up his sleeve.
Quote from: Tacachale on February 24, 2015, 12:01:10 AM
Quote from: edjax on February 23, 2015, 10:48:58 PM
Quote from: Steve on February 23, 2015, 10:41:54 PM
Quote from: edjax on February 23, 2015, 10:35:51 PM
Wow. Tryimg to put a positive spin on the TriLegacy. Poor mayoral oversight. Millions and millions lost. Nice try.
I don't think it's spin - it's what happened. The city didn't own the land before the deal, TriLegacy did. They gave TriLegacy $38 million that went somewhere (who really knows). However, after that happened, the city got the land.
Effectively, the city paid $38 million for some land.
And the 35 million to clean it up. Anywy you look at it the city did not handle it properly.
There's no spin: the developer defrauded the city, but even still the city got the land after it happened. But more to the point, we still don't know would happen if this deal were to go through and then, somehow, didn't pan out. It's totally possible that we'd still have an empty lot we'd be on the hook for, but we wouldn't own it or have any say what happened next.
Just don't think it is quite as rosey as you want to make it sound, city basically on hook:
- 38 million paid to TriLegacy
- potentially 35 million to remediate it now that the City is the owner, and Simms even thinks that may be low
- how many millions to fill in the 5.1 acres which sounds like they are on the hook for per prior agreement
- How many millions in legals costs with the TriLegacy and subsequent lawsuits.
So I think the complete failure of the Delaney administration on over site of the TriLegacy debacle is
the primary reasons we are where are now.
If Mayor Brown had been involved in the TriLegacy debacle would you be as forgiving of his "negotiating" skills that had taken place? Not a chance.
Quote from: edjax on February 24, 2015, 11:42:24 AM
If Mayor Brown had been involved in the TriLegacy debacle would you be as forgiving of his "negotiating" skills that had taken place? Not a chance.
To be fair, at least Delaney had a vision, put it into action and produced some tangible results. Were they all perfect? No, but overall the BJP did more good than harm. What has Brown accomplished?
That argument is a non-starter.
If you want to look at this somewhat 'politikally', then IMO as an incoming mayor, I would embrace it whole-heartedly. It won't be determined a success or failure until well into the term, and because of short-term memory, you would then have the ability to accept the credit for a job well done or blame the previous administration for negotiating the boondoggle it becomes.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 24, 2015, 12:29:25 PM
Quote from: edjax on February 24, 2015, 11:42:24 AM
If Mayor Brown had been involved in the TriLegacy debacle would you be as forgiving of his "negotiating" skills that had taken place? Not a chance.
To be fair, at least Delaney had a vision, put it into action and produced some tangible results. Were they all perfect? No, but overall the BJP did more good than harm. What has Brown accomplished?
That argument is a non-starter.
If you want to look at this somewhat 'politikally', then IMO as an incoming mayor, I would embrace it whole-heartedly. It won't be determined a success or failure until well into the term, and because of short-term memory, you would then have the ability to accept the credit for a job well done or blame the previous administration for negotiating the boondoggle it becomes.
Trust me I am not a Brown fan at all, but the Delaney is wonderful act is old. Yes BJP was good, but all funded by taxes and he also brought us DROP and 8% COLA pensions too. He did plenty of harm to our city also. And regarding this thread I think he is partially to blame where we are with the Shipyards now.
Quote from: Steve on February 24, 2015, 07:55:53 AM
One of the interesting points brought up is that if this were to happen, we likely aren't seeing much office/residential/hotel for a while, since we'll need to wait on the absorption of this space.
The one exception might be hotel-IF the city builds the convention center. I think with this development and a convention center, Jacksonville can transform very quickly into a pretty decent convention city.
I think Jax could be a decent convention town.
Quote from: JaxArchitect on February 24, 2015, 09:38:30 AM
Without getting into the weeds, this is an extraordinarily bad deal for the City as currently drafted. It places all of the risk and upfront cost on the City with all (OK, the vast majority of it) of the upside (profit) going to Khan. He will receive the property with very few obligations other than to act as a broker by selling the parcels to others to develop. Understanding the challenges of developing downtown and the softness of the market, it's likely that this land will sit vacant for many years to come with the only outcome being that the City has given away the land. If we're lucky, we might get a football practice field built on prime riverfront property that does very little to improve the experience of everyday Jacksonville residents or even tourists...and I don't believe for a second that he'll build the practice facility as depicted in the presentation. Can you say "Value Engineering?"
I'm worried all we'll end up with is a practice field on the riverfront.
Quote from: CityLife on February 24, 2015, 10:00:55 AM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 24, 2015, 09:52:46 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on February 24, 2015, 09:50:32 AM
^If were just going to divide it up and sell it off, we could do it ourselves and keep 100% of the profit and 100% of the tax revenues, instead of 20% and 0%.
Taca, the city has already stated that there's no interest in dividing up the parcel.
There is no "interest" because Shad Khan is guiding the process and playing puppetmaster.
I do agree with Taca that the city could act as master developer and keep 100% of profits. However, I think in that scenario just about anyone would seek property tax abatements of some sort. I think pretty much everyone is asking for the REV Grant from COJ these days. I don't think Khan should be punished for being wealthy and should qualify for abatements just as any old Joe would. However, I do think that the 80-20 proposition is ridiculous. That needs to get a lot closer to 50% before the city takes it on....unless of course Khan has a few aces up his sleeve (like a major corporate relocation).
The city could. Other cities do have very strong agencies with competent people who know how to properly develop these things or get these things developed. I don't believe Jacksonville is such city. In fact, I would guess that overall the city has some of the least competent people working for it.
Khan seemingly came up with a process to move forward with development, and he has the wherewithal to find people to develop it. He will implement, so he's asking to be paid for this. If the city were competent, this would all have been done years ago.
Quote from: MEGATRON on February 24, 2015, 10:01:33 AM
The City's basis in the Shipyards is the $36.5M given to TriLegacy. That's it. It owns the Shipyards strictly as a secured creditor (oh, and under state and federal regs, as a secured creditor, it becomes entirely liable for the contamination if it does not actively try to convey the property in a commercial feasible manner).
Under Khan's proposal, the City's basis in the property is $36.5M plus whatever capital costs Khan is seeking. Seems to me, the 20% that goes to the City plus future tax revenues eventually covers the City's basis in the property.
If the City breaks even on this deal, it's a win. That property has been idle for far too long.
But my understanding is that future tax revenues go to Khan/Shipyards development groups? Also, how much is all of this land worth? Let's say 30 out of 53 acres gets sold at $2M/acre. City makes $11-12M back, which is chump change. Future tax revenues are certainly not going to be all that much either, and won't be realized for many decades (and it sounds like they will be used to pay off a loan secured by TIF bonds issued by the city, in other words, Khan pulls tax revenue out up front, city gets paid back many years later).
My question with the TIF is that if it's all 1 district and Khan wants all TIF to go to the Shipyards - does that prevent other developers from benefiting the way Khan wants to benefit? And what if a successful Shipyards plays a role in doubling the value of other buildings downtown. He gets all of that incremental tax revenue as well? What's the time period? When does the district expire?
All I can say is.......WOW!!! and.......GEEZ!!! Do I understand most or all of this? HELL NO! However, I will say this: 1) Give Shad Khan a chance; 2) City of Jax...don't give anything away unless you know for sure you will get something back, sure and viable, for the City of Jax and its people in return; 3) Though Shad Khan maybe trying to puppet and control this thing, the City has to tip toe on their heels and be on top of this thing from start to finish...the City must ensure that JACKSONVILLE's best interests are put to the fore and not allow this thing to not be built, fall through the floor, or the ball dropped and we end up with a huge empty parking lot with a couple of practice fields that will be there long after most of us are pushing up pecan trees. However, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out exactly what is going on, what has to happen, and what has to not happen in order for this to be successful not only for the City of Jacksonville, but also for both sides which of course includes Shad Khan.......THERE, I SAID IT.
Quote from: edjax on February 23, 2015, 10:48:58 PM
Quote from: Steve on February 23, 2015, 10:41:54 PM
Quote from: edjax on February 23, 2015, 10:35:51 PM
Wow. Tryimg to put a positive spin on the TriLegacy. Poor mayoral oversight. Millions and millions lost. Nice try.
I don't think it's spin - it's what happened. The city didn't own the land before the deal, TriLegacy did. They gave TriLegacy $38 million that went somewhere (who really knows). However, after that happened, the city got the land.
Effectively, the city paid $38 million for some land.
And the 35 million to clean it up. Anywy you look at it the city did not handle it properly.
The City is not currently obligated to clean up the property
Quote from: simms3 on February 23, 2015, 10:50:42 PM
In red
Quote from: Marle Brando on February 23, 2015, 10:08:17 PM
Interesting points after reading the full term sheet available on the TU.
-City to pay for environmental cleanup up to 35mil, Up to is key - I think that's a low number and leaves a lot of public risk on the table - this will be negotiated down
-bulkhead improvements and maintenance,
-infastructure pertaining to bay street,
-the Riverwalk improvement and extension,
-public park portions and
-Hogans Creek improvements up to Liberty St.
Also:
-City 20%/Iguana 80% land sale profits Just as I thought - Khan's going to parcel off the Shipyards to developers. Presumably developers. It'll be interesting to hear about all the other limitations here, and honestly, I'm not comfortable with an 80-20 split here. I don't believe that Khan is taking on nearly 80% of the risk here, especially if he's not actually the one developing the whole thing. If he wants to negotiate other deals for himself in separate JVs with other partners for the land he sells off, then fine, but the city should negotiate a 50-50 split on land profits. To Khan it's essentially free money - he's not putting anything into the land, yet, before sale, like the city is doing. At the end of the day, though, this is basically worthless land. We aren't talking much money here compared to everything else related to this deal. I foresee Khan getting land for free, having the city essentially prep it to be developed at city cost, Khan flipping it into a New Co with some other partner(s) and contributing the land as part of his basis, maybe requiring other partners to fund go forward, and this is Khan's way of staying in a deal and making some money. It's free equity for Khan and if it pans out, what that looks like is $0 spent, $10M earned, almost like what is called a promote, except via technicality Khan contributes something - land - that he got for free.
-Shipyards to be rezoned, free of mobility fees forever. Never make anything forever. Duh
-Shipyards keeps all TIF futures generated. Ok - so back to my other question - are there more than 1 TIF district? or are they saying that they will package a bond for the Shipyards based on future tax revenues across all of downtown and nobody else, even future developers of other sites, get a penny? Needs more color here
-City required to fill 5+ acres of land according to an existing agreement?? DEP Pemit #16-192176-003-EI Ha! I knew it...those renderings were too robust to be true, lol. 5 acres is not small.
I still feel this may be the best deal the city may get, but I must admit it's hard to see the city commit funds to the extent of Hogans Creek redo and filling in 5 acres of waterfront on top of only seeing profits in the way of net land sale profit. I believe the long term benefits will make up for cost at some point but it is a steep price the city must agree to. Its time to put up or shut up. Someone correct me if I missed anything, but do you guys feel the city can fund said obligations?
If so, without a raise in taxes, how are they funded?
This is not the final iteration, by any means. I wouldn't be surprised if we're looking at 15+ years of project, 3 of those being working out some of these preliminary details. And I REALLY hope the city's foot forward now is to spend $$$ on a great legal team from another city (NOT Jax, no offense). $$$ for a big city firm/team will pay off in a better deal for the city without ruining the deal. Khan will certainly be doing the same.
Interested as to why you think $35M is a low number.
Quote from: MEGATRON on February 24, 2015, 01:40:29 PM
Quote from: edjax on February 23, 2015, 10:48:58 PM
Quote from: Steve on February 23, 2015, 10:41:54 PM
Quote from: edjax on February 23, 2015, 10:35:51 PM
Wow. Tryimg to put a positive spin on the TriLegacy. Poor mayoral oversight. Millions and millions lost. Nice try.
I don't think it's spin - it's what happened. The city didn't own the land before the deal, TriLegacy did. They gave TriLegacy $38 million that went somewhere (who really knows). However, after that happened, the city got the land.
Effectively, the city paid $38 million for some land.
And the 35 million to clean it up. Anywy you look at it the city did not handle it properly.
The City is not currently obligated to clean up the property
Of course not if they just want to let it sit there vacant.
Stephanie Brown, WOKV is live tweeting the DIA Mettimg at 3 for those that are interested.
They decided to have a special meeting next week dealing with it.
Good. I suspect the DIA will have a counter sheet ready by then, they must. Let's not get used to delays in the process and get the RFP's going.
I agree with Simms if the city were competent to move this forward themselves or with others it would have been done years ago. Let Khan do it just push for a little better deal.
Here are some details from the meeting, per Stephanie Brown (https://twitter.com/newsandnom) (thanks for the heads up, Ed!)
- Jags lobbyist Paul Harden asks DIA to keep an open mind about the proposal, knows there will be a back-and-forth
- Harden says their "unwavering goal" is to benefit the City of Jacksonville.
- Harden: we know this is a bold project, getting a football franchise together was bold and it happened
- Harden says he's here to answer questions and encourage them to get the bid process moving. City must solicit other bids b4 moving forward.
- DIA CEO recommending to set special mtg for next wk to discuss how to move forward w/ Khan's Shipyards proposals. Because they just got terms yesterday, they haven't yet had enough time to really consider this plan and what to do with it.
- DIA moves to set a special meeting for next week dealing with Shipyards proposal and process forward. Date TBD pending schedule comparisons.
- DIA CEO Aundra Wallace- we'll work expeditiously on this, it's important issue for the community. Chair adds "there's a lot o f work ahead"
- Paul Harden- lawyer working w/ Khan's investment grp- says they know will be a discussion, but they're dedicated to what's best for City
- Harden says City has abt $32mill in bonds off land, but they are willing to not make the City pay that off, instead will leave public space
- If current design doesn't include enough public park space to offset that debt, Harden says they are willing to build more in to the plan.
- Still no specific price tag being offered for City or private contribution. Also no clear funding idea, but Mayor says he's hopeful.
- Harden says all the public contribution they built in to the proposal is similar to public $ ask that's been offered to other proposals
QuoteCity must solicit other bids b4 moving forward.
COJ should have been doing this for at least the last two years in order to set a market for the land. Now the RFP will be probably geared towards this one proposal.
QuoteDIA CEO recommending to set special mtg for next wk to discuss how to move forward w/ Khan's Shipyards proposals. Because they just got terms yesterday, they haven't yet had enough time to really consider this plan and what to do with it.
Harden has been floating these exact terms to city officials for almost a year and a half now... none of this is a surprise, its just now in writing.
QuoteHarden says City has abt $32mill in bonds off land
Been pounding that drum for awhile. People simply don't understand that there is already significant carrying costs (debt) on the land now.
QuoteHarden says all the public contribution they built in to the proposal is similar to public $ ask that's been offered to other proposals
Considering the City will have to substantially increase their debt exposure for this redevelopment scheme (without the subsequent property tax revenue generated from the land to pay back that bond debt), I think that statement is a little less than acurate based on the terms requested.
DIA Chair, per Sgephanie Brown, states not really aware of any other proposals that may surface after they get around to getting the RFP out.
Quote from: MEGATRON on February 24, 2015, 01:40:29 PM
Quote from: edjax on February 23, 2015, 10:48:58 PM
Quote from: Steve on February 23, 2015, 10:41:54 PM
Quote from: edjax on February 23, 2015, 10:35:51 PM
Wow. Tryimg to put a positive spin on the TriLegacy. Poor mayoral oversight. Millions and millions lost. Nice try.
I don't think it's spin - it's what happened. The city didn't own the land before the deal, TriLegacy did. They gave TriLegacy $38 million that went somewhere (who really knows). However, after that happened, the city got the land.
Effectively, the city paid $38 million for some land.
And the 35 million to clean it up. Anywy you look at it the city did not handle it properly.
The City is not currently obligated to clean up the property
And to expand, the previous developer was going to cap off most of the contaminated areas.. far cheaper than what Khan is asking for.
#jaxshipyards project could begin July 1st if approved. Actual cost of environmental cleanup for city would run about $20M, rather than $35M
Wouldn't the cleanup have to be completed before they would start?
Quote from: edjax on February 24, 2015, 06:01:25 PM
Wouldn't the cleanup have to be completed before they would start?
Khan's group still has to go through the RFP process and then entitle the land, which will take months and months.
The only thing that can realistically start in July is environmental remediation and site prep work.
Quote from: KenFSU on February 24, 2015, 04:15:48 PM
Here are some details from the meeting, per Stephanie Brown (https://twitter.com/newsandnom) (thanks for the heads up, Ed!)
- Jags lobbyist Paul Harden asks DIA to keep an open mind about the proposal, knows there will be a back-and-forth
- Harden says their "unwavering goal" is to benefit the City of Jacksonville.
- Harden: we know this is a bold project, getting a football franchise together was bold and it happened
- Harden says he's here to answer questions and encourage them to get the bid process moving. City must solicit other bids b4 moving forward.
- DIA CEO recommending to set special mtg for next wk to discuss how to move forward w/ Khan's Shipyards proposals. Because they just got terms yesterday, they haven't yet had enough time to really consider this plan and what to do with it.
- DIA moves to set a special meeting for next week dealing with Shipyards proposal and process forward. Date TBD pending schedule comparisons.
- DIA CEO Aundra Wallace- we'll work expeditiously on this, it's important issue for the community. Chair adds "there's a lot o f work ahead"
- Paul Harden- lawyer working w/ Khan's investment grp- says they know will be a discussion, but they're dedicated to what's best for City
- Harden says City has abt $32mill in bonds off land, but they are willing to not make the City pay that off, instead will leave public space
- If current design doesn't include enough public park space to offset that debt, Harden says they are willing to build more in to the plan.
- Still no specific price tag being offered for City or private contribution. Also no clear funding idea, but Mayor says he's hopeful.
- Harden says all the public contribution they built in to the proposal is similar to public $ ask that's been offered to other proposals
Positive attitude and approach on both sides at present; it appears that both sides want to work together for the common good and benefit for the City of Jacksonville; THAT'S what I'm talking about! At least the start is smooth, off, and running; we'll see what happens next week.
Quote from: edjax on February 24, 2015, 06:01:25 PM
Wouldn't the cleanup have to be completed before they would start?
I think that's what RYNJNY was referring to; cleanup first and then construction after cleanup. Everything would start with the cleanup and then construction would commence of the actual development.
What about the environmental concerns and the state approval required? I've been told, for example, that the reason the Berkman marina has those crappy floating docks is that the state wouldn't allow them to put pilings in to hold concrete floating docks in place. It will take an act of God to approve the constuction of anything into or over the water, won't it? Khan's plan calls for a bunch of fill also. Same story. Does anyone know at what level the approval process for that needs to go? Is it only the state, or will the feds need to sign off?
The remediation for the site is estimated around 20mil, so it's far below the 35mil cap. Also Hogans Creek cleanup can be funded from the city stormwaters funds per Daily Record. So if terms stick, which I'm sure they wont, the city would be 7mil short of the cost for site remediation, must secure funding for public portion improvements like riverwalk, Bay St, moor etc.
Quote from: Marle Brando on February 25, 2015, 03:56:38 PM
The remediation for the site is estimated around 20mil, so it's far below the 35mil cap. Also Hogans Creek cleanup can be funded from the city stormwaters funds per Daily Record. So if terms stick, which I'm sure they wont, the city would be 7mil short of the cost for site remediation, must secure funding for public portion improvements like riverwalk, Bay St, moor etc.
Stormwater fees don't even come close to the City's present obligations for septic tank removal and stormwater treatment (the City is failing to meet state-mandated benchmarks related to the health of the St Johns).. nonetheless cleaning up Hogans Creek (which is going to require federal funding). Let's make sure facts stay at the forefront of this conversation. COJ doesn't have tens of millions of stormwater fees sitting around unused.
Your estimates as to costs are also way off. As proposed, the City's cost all-in is going to be more than 35mm. The 35mm figure is there simply because of previous public money benchmarks firm prior redevelopment schemes.
Quote from: fieldafm on February 25, 2015, 07:34:38 PM
Quote from: Marle Brando on February 25, 2015, 03:56:38 PM
The remediation for the site is estimated around 20mil, so it's far below the 35mil cap. Also Hogans Creek cleanup can be funded from the city stormwaters funds per Daily Record. So if terms stick, which I'm sure they wont, the city would be 7mil short of the cost for site remediation, must secure funding for public portion improvements like riverwalk, Bay St, moor etc.
Stormwater fees don't even come close to the City's present obligations for septic tank removal and stormwater treatment (the City is failing to meet state-mandated benchmarks related to the health of the St Johns).. nonetheless cleaning up Hogans Creek (which is going to require federal funding). Let's make sure facts stay at the forefront of this conversation.
Are you saying the City could not legally use the storm water fees toward the Hogans Creek cleanup?
Quote from: edjax on February 25, 2015, 07:50:30 PM
Quote from: fieldafm on February 25, 2015, 07:34:38 PM
Quote from: Marle Brando on February 25, 2015, 03:56:38 PM
The remediation for the site is estimated around 20mil, so it's far below the 35mil cap. Also Hogans Creek cleanup can be funded from the city stormwaters funds per Daily Record. So if terms stick, which I'm sure they wont, the city would be 7mil short of the cost for site remediation, must secure funding for public portion improvements like riverwalk, Bay St, moor etc.
Stormwater fees don't even come close to the City's present obligations for septic tank removal and stormwater treatment (the City is failing to meet state-mandated benchmarks related to the health of the St Johns).. nonetheless cleaning up Hogans Creek (which is going to require federal funding). Let's make sure facts stay at the forefront of this conversation.
Are you saying the City could not legally use the storm water fees toward the Hogans Creek cleanup?
Not at all saying that. I'm putting perspective on the 'they can just use stormwater fees' talk. COJ doesn't have sufficient stormwater fee revenue presently to pay fior needed infrastructure improvements it's obligated for now. In fact, COJ is so far behind on its obligations in regards to the river that it has to buy pollution credits as a temporary band aid. Hogans Creek requires a significant investment, and the City is already behind the 8-ball on many obligations to reduce fecal colliform and nitrogen levels in the river (which are what stormwater fees pay for).
^^ well your response just kind of came off like Brando was stating this could be done and you were refuting it couldn't be done. Why I asked as I had no clue. But then again, not like the city has never robbed one fund to use for something else.
Just took a quick look at the term sheet.
Seems very one-sided.
What real risk is Shad Khan taking?
The Term Sheet compels the city to clean up the property and surrounding areas, and secure grants and other incentives at the state and federal levels. "Iguana" oversees it all. Iguana gets the cleaned up property, builds practice fields and maybe a hotel, and sells off the land (or at least development rights) to developers, and gets 80% of the proceeds on something they've paid very little into. If the city will clean up the property and install a bunch of infrastructure, it should at least give over project management rights to someone experienced in executing massive urban real estate projects.
Khan is a great businessman, yes, but I haven't seen where he has much background in this...perhaps someone in this thread can show me otherwise.
That's some gumption going to the city with a term sheet that really only revolves around what the city has to get done. There's nothing in there about any meaningful obligations of Iguana...Iguana seems to have very little to no "balance sheet" risk in this thing. Iguana seems to be a glorified broker with an insane commission rate on development sales.
Again, not a real estate or deal guy, but was just surprised at what I saw. Other perspectives on this? Trying to be respectful of everyone's opinions.
Having said all that, the City should clean up the property and Hogan's Creek, whether someone wants to develop it or not. I think the city has a moral obligation to do that. Should have been done...like...yesterday.
I re-read what I wrote and don't see where that conclusion could come from. Sorry for any communication deficiencies on my part. Simply thinking that there are stormwater fees sitting around just waiting to be spent is not accurate. The City is already very far behind on funding the infrastructure projects required to meet state mandates in regards to water quality... Which are paid for via these stormwater revenues.
Well thanks.
Fieldafm, if you look at my earlier post I clearly said PER Daily Record. I'm not just making up facts out of my arse, I read it and simply relayed the info. I don't know the amount of stormwater funding available for the city to use nor am I going to suggest that it can all be done from those funds as I am not privy to any info beyond what's printed and presented here. The estimated cleanup is at around 20mil so far according to the article as well, which sited the one responsible for providing that estimate..not my own numbers. I'm no expert and I'm not behind my desk pretending to be.
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on February 25, 2015, 08:14:08 PM
Having said all that, the City should clean up the property and Hogan's Creek, whether someone wants to develop it or not. I think the city has a moral obligation to do that. Should have been done...like...yesterday.
Exactly how I feel too, I hope Iguana makes Hogans Creek an unwavering sticking point in negotiations as I'm afraid the poor creek won't ever be activated if the city's hand isn't forced.
Quote from: Marle Brando on February 25, 2015, 09:50:40 PM
Fieldafm, if you look at my earlier post I clearly said PER Daily Record. I'm not just making up facts out of my arse, I read it and simply relayed the info. I don't know the amount of stormwater funding available for the city to use nor am I going to suggest that it can all be done from those funds as I am not privy to any info beyond what's printed and presented here. The estimated cleanup is at around 20mil so far according to the article as well, which sited the one responsible for providing that estimate..not my own numbers. I'm no expert and I'm not behind my desk pretending to be.
Yea,,that was my point to him too, but....
Quote from: BoldCityRealist on February 17, 2015, 01:14:07 PM
Wow. Even though I am in the middle of actively pursuing leaving this sometimes craphole town, this is giving me pause.
Hey Realist, give me a call and I will help you move.
Huge project. Glad the Kahn is involved. The city should act tough and then roll over give him whatever it takes to get the deal done so the area doesn't sit idle for 20 more years. I am curious about parking. It would also be nice if there was some sort of mass transit. Metro park to Liberty is a hell of a hike, especially for suburbanites.
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on February 25, 2015, 08:11:35 PM
Just took a quick look at the term sheet.
Seems very one-sided.
What real risk is Shad Khan taking?
The Term Sheet compels the city to clean up the property and surrounding areas, and secure grants and other incentives at the state and federal levels. "Iguana" oversees it all. Iguana gets the cleaned up property, builds practice fields and maybe a hotel, and sells off the land (or at least development rights) to developers, and gets 80% of the proceeds on something they've paid very little into. If the city will clean up the property and install a bunch of infrastructure, it should at least give over project management rights to someone experienced in executing massive urban real estate projects.
Khan is a great businessman, yes, but I haven't seen where he has much background in this...perhaps someone in this thread can show me otherwise.
That's some gumption going to the city with a term sheet that really only revolves around what the city has to get done. There's nothing in there about any meaningful obligations of Iguana...Iguana seems to have very little to no "balance sheet" risk in this thing. Iguana seems to be a glorified broker with an insane commission rate on development sales.
Again, not a real estate or deal guy, but was just surprised at what I saw. Other perspectives on this? Trying to be respectful of everyone's opinions.
This.
Can someone explain the big difference in Sleiman's request for $12.8 million and Khan's request for the Shipyards? It's interesting to see the difference in public reaction.
^ Might as well throw in the JEA property. Hope that anyone that attends today's ribbon cutting ceremony of the Southbank Riverwalk when you walk to the end of the by the DCPS building ask yourselves why this 15 or 20' is not a hand launch for small watercraft. Seriously.
Quote from: simms3 on February 24, 2015, 12:51:19 PM
Quote from: Steve on February 24, 2015, 07:55:53 AM
One of the interesting points brought up is that if this were to happen, we likely aren't seeing much office/residential/hotel for a while, since we'll need to wait on the absorption of this space.
The one exception might be hotel-IF the city builds the convention center. I think with this development and a convention center, Jacksonville can transform very quickly into a pretty decent convention city.
I think Jax could be a decent convention town.
Quote from: JaxArchitect on February 24, 2015, 09:38:30 AM
Without getting into the weeds, this is an extraordinarily bad deal for the City as currently drafted. It places all of the risk and upfront cost on the City with all (OK, the vast majority of it) of the upside (profit) going to Khan. He will receive the property with very few obligations other than to act as a broker by selling the parcels to others to develop. Understanding the challenges of developing downtown and the softness of the market, it's likely that this land will sit vacant for many years to come with the only outcome being that the City has given away the land. If we're lucky, we might get a football practice field built on prime riverfront property that does very little to improve the experience of everyday Jacksonville residents or even tourists...and I don't believe for a second that he'll build the practice facility as depicted in the presentation. Can you say "Value Engineering?"
I'm worried all we'll end up with is a practice field on the riverfront.
Quote from: CityLife on February 24, 2015, 10:00:55 AM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 24, 2015, 09:52:46 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on February 24, 2015, 09:50:32 AM
^If were just going to divide it up and sell it off, we could do it ourselves and keep 100% of the profit and 100% of the tax revenues, instead of 20% and 0%.
Taca, the city has already stated that there's no interest in dividing up the parcel.
There is no "interest" because Shad Khan is guiding the process and playing puppetmaster.
I do agree with Taca that the city could act as master developer and keep 100% of profits. However, I think in that scenario just about anyone would seek property tax abatements of some sort. I think pretty much everyone is asking for the REV Grant from COJ these days. I don't think Khan should be punished for being wealthy and should qualify for abatements just as any old Joe would. However, I do think that the 80-20 proposition is ridiculous. That needs to get a lot closer to 50% before the city takes it on....unless of course Khan has a few aces up his sleeve (like a major corporate relocation).
The city could. Other cities do have very strong agencies with competent people who know how to properly develop these things or get these things developed. I don't believe Jacksonville is such city. In fact, I would guess that overall the city has some of the least competent people working for it.
Khan seemingly came up with a process to move forward with development, and he has the wherewithal to find people to develop it. He will implement, so he's asking to be paid for this. If the city were competent, this would all have been done years ago.
Quote from: MEGATRON on February 24, 2015, 10:01:33 AM
The City's basis in the Shipyards is the $36.5M given to TriLegacy. That's it. It owns the Shipyards strictly as a secured creditor (oh, and under state and federal regs, as a secured creditor, it becomes entirely liable for the contamination if it does not actively try to convey the property in a commercial feasible manner).
Under Khan's proposal, the City's basis in the property is $36.5M plus whatever capital costs Khan is seeking. Seems to me, the 20% that goes to the City plus future tax revenues eventually covers the City's basis in the property.
If the City breaks even on this deal, it's a win. That property has been idle for far too long.
But my understanding is that future tax revenues go to Khan/Shipyards development groups? Also, how much is all of this land worth? Let's say 30 out of 53 acres gets sold at $2M/acre. City makes $11-12M back, which is chump change. Future tax revenues are certainly not going to be all that much either, and won't be realized for many decades (and it sounds like they will be used to pay off a loan secured by TIF bonds issued by the city, in other words, Khan pulls tax revenue out up front, city gets paid back many years later).
My question with the TIF is that if it's all 1 district and Khan wants all TIF to go to the Shipyards - does that prevent other developers from benefiting the way Khan wants to benefit? And what if a successful Shipyards plays a role in doubling the value of other buildings downtown. He gets all of that incremental tax revenue as well? What's the time period? When does the district expire?
Great point. I believe the city should have remedied the land contamination a long time ago and should be responsible. Our city leaders have created a city that is a bad investment period. Our downtown is a bad investment from an outsider/ I love this city, but it is true. I don't think anyone is going to come along and break us a better deal. I do think we have negotiating to do, but I am concerned that the city wouldn't even know where to start?
Quote from jaxnyc79:
"What real risk is Shad Khan taking?"
He's risking everything in Jacksonville FL. The most under performing waterfront city in North America.
With a City Government with a terrible track record of developing it's own best asset.
^ Perfect response MM, and incredibly true.
Ennis, on the Landing, to me we're talking apples and oranges here. The Landing as it exists isn't perfect, but it has its use as a semi-iconic civic gathering space. Sleiman requested $12.8 million to basically neuter the space and turn it into a suburban apartment complex. Retail was limited, the courtyard that has become one of the primary gathering spots in the city was removed, and the thin strip of public space was separated from the "Landing" by a road. I don't get the impression that the public outcry was over the specific dollar contribution, but rather to the terrible design presented by Sleiman, coupled with his "taking my ball and going home" attitude when the city council suggested that public input was needed. If Sleiman's proposal would have been stronger and presented a new Landing that truly benefit the city, I think we would have seen a more favorable reaction.
Conversely, I think many, many, many (three manys!) people see Khan's proposed Shipyards development as a genuine way to increase quality of life in Jacksonville and kickstart a broader redevelopment of downtown at large. I think the average informed Jacksonville citizen realizes that no developer is going to clean up our mess for us, and that even if we have to open up the checkbook for remediation, riverwalk extension, and mooring of the USS Adams, these are all necessary improvements we'll eventually be on the hook for anyway.
Others might disagree, with I'm fine with the Shipyards being a short-term loss leader for a broader revitalization of downtown Jacksonville. We've already seen two major land purchases in the area partially credited to Khan's vision for the area (the Ford Plant, and the Drew Mansion in Springfield). Strategically, working with Khan ties the Jaguars to downtown Jacksonville, and puts the project in the hands of someone who has the drive, motivation, and capital to deliver as promised. And allocating the incremental tax revenue specifically for the Shipyards is fine in my book as well. Compare our sports complex -- which also receives specially allocated tax revenue for upkeep and remains one of the crown jewels of our city -- with the rest of our crumbling infrastructure.
I think the city can probably negotiate a better than 80-20 split, but other than that, I really don't see anything terribly unreasonable with the Jaguars' terms, particularly when you consider the opportunity cost of either a) doing nothing with the site, or b) bringing in another developer who may not have the same incentive or capital to see the project to conclusion.
People might hate him, but Paul Harden is a pretty smart guy. He's well aware of what the city can and cannot reasonably afford, and surely the Jaguars are familiar with how quickly capital improvement projects can die in Jacksonville if the developer asks for too much.
Terms can be negotiated, but in my opinion, the project is a no brainer.
The city will never develop the Shipyards on its own, and if they did, it would cost five times as much, take twice as long, and fall apart within a decade. It's the Jacksonville way.
No one has showed any genuine, credible interest in developing the site in a decade.
Now, you've got a multi-billionaire with international ties who is committed to Jacksonville, has an intimate understanding of the market, and who is shaking with excitement over developing the property. He's got a great vision that makes downtown a destination, solidifies one of our biggest assets (the Jaguars) in Jacksonville once their lease runs out, and serves to give Jacksonville something it has struggled for decades to gain -- a recognizable identity.
It's the right project in the right spot with the right developer at the right time.
Opportunities like this come around but once or twice in a lifetime in a city like Jacksonville.
Well said!!!!!
Quote from: KenFSU on February 26, 2015, 10:05:20 AM
^ Perfect response MM, and incredibly true.
Ennis, on the Landing, to me we're talking apples and oranges here. The Landing as it exists isn't perfect, but it has its use as a semi-iconic civic gathering space. Sleiman requested $12.8 million to basically neuter the space and turn it into a suburban apartment complex. Retail was limited, the courtyard that has become one of the primary gathering spots in the city was removed, and the thin strip of public space was separated from the "Landing" by a road. I don't get the impression that the public outcry was over the specific dollar contribution, but rather to the terrible design presented by Sleiman, coupled with his "taking my ball and going home" attitude when the city council suggested that public input was needed. If Sleiman's proposal would have been stronger and presented a new Landing that truly benefit the city, I think we would have seen a more favorable reaction.
Conversely, I think many, many, many (three manys!) people see Khan's proposed Shipyards development as a genuine way to increase quality of life in Jacksonville and kickstart a broader redevelopment of downtown at large. I think the average informed Jacksonville citizen realizes that no developer is going to clean up our mess for us, and that even if we have to open up the checkbook for remediation, riverwalk extension, and mooring of the USS Adams, these are all necessary improvements we'll eventually be on the hook for anyway.
In Sleiman's case, the public money was to be used for the Landing's demolition, newly created waterfront public space and site infrastructure. I believe Sleiman was going to develop the mixed use buildings himself.
In Khan's case, he'd be a master developer, meaning they'd be attempting to get the Sleimans of the world to construct their individual projects on smaller parcels of the site. By the same token, the hotel in the Landing plan would be developed in a similar fashion. In both cases, the request is for public money to be spent to prepare these sites for their private developments....although Khan is asking for city property and Sleiman is not.
I think the major difference is Khan came in with a flashy "unrealistic" plan that wowed the socks off of many and Sleiman (who is already looked down on by many downtown advocates) presented something reflective of Jax's true market.
If I'm Sleiman, I'd probably keep the same development mix and just lay these uses out differently on the Landing site and throw a microsoft paint hot air balloon in the background for shits and giggles.
Before anyone jumps on me, I'm not attempting to rain on either developer's parade and I hope that both endeavors will ultimately be successful. It's just interesting to see two requests for public money to be uses to make sites development ready be taken in two totally different directions by most downtown advocates.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 26, 2015, 06:38:45 AM
Can someone explain the big difference in Sleiman's request for $12.8 million and Khan's request for the Shipyards? It's interesting to see the difference in public reaction.
I think some is just who it is. Toney Sleiman is a hate him or like him guy. Also I would think from the standpoint on this site he promotes sprawl with his continual building of cheap strip malls further and further out and was one of the major people behind the gutting of the Mobility Fees. So I think there is a few things which will trigger anything he suggests with doubt and negativity.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 26, 2015, 10:26:39 AM
I think the major difference is Khan came in with a flashy "unrealistic" plan that wowed the socks off of many and Sleiman (who already looked down on by many downtown advocates) presented something reflective of Jax's true market.
To your point, Lake, my opinion was a few days ago:
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 18, 2015, 12:47:30 PM
It's not a perfect world; and people don't really get excited over 3-story "Jacksonville Beige" stucco covered buildings (are you listening Toney Sleiman?). So we start with his dream, and then we tweak it here and there, and I imagine that we'll end up with something completely different. But definitely something. And based on his track-record since being here, I think we'll see something sooner rather than later - 1-2 years from now moving dirt for the practice fields at a minimum.
There is a phrase that keeps popping up that I'd like to address, though: "This doesn't/isn't feel/seem/appear Jacksonville."
Good. Khan isn't Jacksonville, and I hope he brings in more influence that ISN'T Jacksonville. Our status quo is boring, un-inventive and quite frankly a detriment to our city. I'm looking forward to more presentations along this ilk.
What do we stand to gain by continuing the "Jacksonville Way"? Another stucco building and a parking lot?
Previously everyone said Khan had so much money and he was investing lots of it in this project. In reality he is not investing anything at all except his time and reputation. He is taking no monetary risk. He is requiring the city to invest lots of money into property that is immediately adjacent to his team's stadium. Even if not one building goes up on the site, he gains simply by having this property become 'develop-able' even if he is not involved.
Right out of the gate, before discussing any other parts of the contract, Khan needs to make guarantees that improvements by the city will be followed with private investment of a specified amount, within a short and specified period of time. Absent of that additional investment, would require payback from Khan of at least part of the public improvements. He needs skin in the game, he currently has none.
Quote from: vicupstate on February 26, 2015, 11:57:11 AM
Right out of the gate, before discussing any other parts of the contract, Khan needs to make guarantees that improvements by the city will be followed with private investment of a specified amount, within a short and specified period of time. Absent of that additional investment, would require payback from Khan of at least part of the public improvements. He needs skin in the game, he currently has none.
This sounds very reasonable. I would expect to do this if I were him.
Precisely, he needs skin in the game.
If he wants to be made "chief promoter of shipyards redevelopment," then that's all well and good, but we need clearly-defined redevelopment goals and timelines, or title to the property should revert back to the city. Other than being a very rich football team owner, I'm not sure what Khan has "paid in" to indefinitely own a cleaned-up shipyards property.
I'm sure the city knows to do this as part of due diligence, but need to know whether Iguana is solely-owned by Khan of if there are other owners, and need to address Khan's transfer rights of Iguana. We don't want him transferring managing member interests to 3rd parties for settlement of any debts he has incurred. The rich find ways to preserve their riches, that's for sure.
DIA Meeting on Shipyards to be Feiday, March 6th at 9:00 AM in City Hall per Stephanie Brown, WOKV.
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on February 26, 2015, 01:28:32 PM
Precisely, he needs skin in the game.
If he wants to be made "chief promoter of shipyards redevelopment," then that's all well and good, but we need clearly-defined redevelopment timelines and benchmarks, or title to the property should revert back to the city. Other than being a very rich football team owner, I'm not sure what Khan has "paid in" to own a cleaned-up shipyards property.
The City needs to clean up this property - should have been done ages ago - so kudos to Khan for making that an urgency.
I'm sure the city knows to do this as part of due diligence, but need to know whether Iguana is solely-owned by Khan of if there are other owners, and need to address Khan's transfer rights of Iguana. We don't want him transferring managing member interests to 3rd parties for settlement of any debts he has incurred. The rich find ways to preserve their riches, that's for sure.
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on February 26, 2015, 01:28:32 PM
Precisely, he needs skin in the game.
If he wants to be made "chief promoter of shipyards redeveloper," then that's all well and good, but we need clearly-defined redevelopment timelines and benchmarks, or title to the property should revert back to the city. Other than being a very rich football team owner, I'm not sure what Khan has "paid in" to own a cleaned-up shipyards property.
The City needs to clean up this property - should have been done ages ago - so kudos to Khan for making that an urgency.
I'm sure the city knows to do this as part of due diligence, but need to know whether Iguana is solely-owned by Khan of if there are other owners, and need to address Khan's transfer rights of Iguana. We don't want him transferring managing member interests to 3rd parties for settlement of any debts he has incurred. The rich find ways to preserve their riches, that's for sure.
Khan has Paul Harden working for him. Harden might be the best lawyer in the city. Khan probably has a few other big city firms on speed dial - New York, Chicago, Atlanta, DC, LA firms. The city of Jacksonville would be wise to spend up on legal fees (by hiring a good firm/team from a big city) to ensure that the taxpayers are protected here and the city is not getting duped by a guy who is probably smarter than anyone (by far) on the city's payroll.
And you can bet there are other partners in Iguana (easy to guess who they would be too), which might be an Operating Co for future subs/Property Cos that will be involved in various transactions related to the Shipyards. Heck, if I had a few million I'd want to buddy up with Khan, knowing the City of Jax has a good way of shoveling tax payer money to those who ask for it appropriately.
Quote from: KenFSU on February 26, 2015, 10:05:20 AM
^ Perfect response MM, and incredibly true.
Ennis, on the Landing, to me we're talking apples and oranges here. The Landing as it exists isn't perfect, but it has its use as a semi-iconic civic gathering space. Sleiman requested $12.8 million to basically neuter the space and turn it into a suburban apartment complex. Retail was limited, the courtyard that has become one of the primary gathering spots in the city was removed, and the thin strip of public space was separated from the "Landing" by a road. I don't get the impression that the public outcry was over the specific dollar contribution, but rather to the terrible design presented by Sleiman, coupled with his "taking my ball and going home" attitude when the city council suggested that public input was needed. If Sleiman's proposal would have been stronger and presented a new Landing that truly benefit the city, I think we would have seen a more favorable reaction.
Conversely, I think many, many, many (three manys!) people see Khan's proposed Shipyards development as a genuine way to increase quality of life in Jacksonville and kickstart a broader redevelopment of downtown at large. I think the average informed Jacksonville citizen realizes that no developer is going to clean up our mess for us, and that even if we have to open up the checkbook for remediation, riverwalk extension, and mooring of the USS Adams, these are all necessary improvements we'll eventually be on the hook for anyway.
The Populous video is a compelling visual, but it's just mere fantastical animation. The link between that video and an increased quality of life for all 840 square miles of so of Jacksonville has yet to be established. You are correct that the Shipyards property is the city's mess to clean, and that clean-up should be a near-term imperative, but once it is cleaned, it is far more valuable and appealing to lots of developers and project managers besides just Iguana.
Others might disagree, with I'm fine with the Shipyards being a short-term loss leader for a broader revitalization of downtown Jacksonville. We've already seen two major land purchases in the area partially credited to Khan's vision for the area (the Ford Plant, and the Drew Mansion in Springfield). Strategically, working with Khan ties the Jaguars to downtown Jacksonville, and puts the project in the hands of someone who has the drive, motivation, and capital to deliver as promised. And allocating the incremental tax revenue specifically for the Shipyards is fine in my book as well. Compare our sports complex -- which also receives specially allocated tax revenue for upkeep and remains one of the crown jewels of our city -- with the rest of our crumbling infrastructure.
What Khan has done is promotion. Maybe one can credit his Populous video for the Ford Plant and Drew Mansion transactions, maybe not, I'm not sure about that, but you speak as though you have some inside info on this.
I think the city can probably negotiate a better than 80-20 split, but other than that, I really don't see anything terribly unreasonable with the Jaguars' terms, particularly when you consider the opportunity cost of either a) doing nothing with the site, or b) bringing in another developer who may not have the same incentive or capital to see the project to conclusion.
Really, you don't even care that there is no mention of minimum dollars invested by Iguana, or even timeframes for certain Iguana development milestones? How does the property revert back to city ownership and control in case something happens to Khan, or Iguana, or if there is some failure in his performance? And the 80/20 split is atrocious. Yes, it may seem like it's not a big deal now with the property being as contaminated as it is, but once it's cleaned-up and being parceled off to 3rd parties, taxpayers should definitely reap more benefits on those land sales.
People might hate him, but Paul Harden is a pretty smart guy. He's well aware of what the city can and cannot reasonably afford, and surely the Jaguars are familiar with how quickly capital improvement projects can die in Jacksonville if the developer asks for too much.
Ok, the counterparty is smart...that doesn't excuse the stewards of taxpayer dollars from a rigorous due diligence process, and for understanding market comparables for a cleaned-up piece of riverfront property. Again, this property needs to be cleaned. Once the city undertakes that effort to completion, we're talking about a very different kind of asset and negotiations.
Terms can be negotiated, but in my opinion, the project is a no brainer.
The city will never develop the Shipyards on its own, and if they did, it would cost five times as much, take twice as long, and fall apart within a decade. It's the Jacksonville way.
No one has showed any genuine, credible interest in developing the site in a decade.
Now, you've got a multi-billionaire with international ties who is committed to Jacksonville, has an intimate understanding of the market, and who is shaking with excitement over developing the property. He's got a great vision that makes downtown a destination, solidifies one of our biggest assets (the Jaguars) in Jacksonville once their lease runs out, and serves to give Jacksonville something it has struggled for decades to gain -- a recognizable identity.
It's the right project in the right spot with the right developer at the right time.
Opportunities like this come around but once or twice in a lifetime in a city like Jacksonville.
Yes, Jax has made a ton of mistakes in the past, but that's no reason to let a municipal inferiority complex screw over taxpayers yet again.
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on February 26, 2015, 03:18:47 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on February 26, 2015, 10:05:20 AM
^ Perfect response MM, and incredibly true.
Ennis, on the Landing, to me we're talking apples and oranges here. The Landing as it exists isn't perfect, but it has its use as a semi-iconic civic gathering space. Sleiman requested $12.8 million to basically neuter the space and turn it into a suburban apartment complex. Retail was limited, the courtyard that has become one of the primary gathering spots in the city was removed, and the thin strip of public space was separated from the "Landing" by a road. I don't get the impression that the public outcry was over the specific dollar contribution, but rather to the terrible design presented by Sleiman, coupled with his "taking my ball and going home" attitude when the city council suggested that public input was needed. If Sleiman's proposal would have been stronger and presented a new Landing that truly benefit the city, I think we would have seen a more favorable reaction.
Conversely, I think many, many, many (three manys!) people see Khan's proposed Shipyards development as a genuine way to increase quality of life in Jacksonville and kickstart a broader redevelopment of downtown at large. I think the average informed Jacksonville citizen realizes that no developer is going to clean up our mess for us, and that even if we have to open up the checkbook for remediation, riverwalk extension, and mooring of the USS Adams, these are all necessary improvements we'll eventually be on the hook for anyway.
The Populous video is a compelling visual, but it's just mere fantastical animation. The link between that video and an increased quality of life for all 840 square miles of so of Jacksonville has yet to be established. You are correct that the Shipyards property is the city's mess to clean, and that clean-up should be a near-term imperative, but once it is cleaned, it is far more valuable and appealing to lots of developers and project managers besides just Iguana.
Quote
Others might disagree, with I'm fine with the Shipyards being a short-term loss leader for a broader revitalization of downtown Jacksonville. We've already seen two major land purchases in the area partially credited to Khan's vision for the area (the Ford Plant, and the Drew Mansion in Springfield). Strategically, working with Khan ties the Jaguars to downtown Jacksonville, and puts the project in the hands of someone who has the drive, motivation, and capital to deliver as promised. And allocating the incremental tax revenue specifically for the Shipyards is fine in my book as well. Compare our sports complex -- which also receives specially allocated tax revenue for upkeep and remains one of the crown jewels of our city -- with the rest of our crumbling infrastructure.
What Khan has done is promotion. Maybe one can credit his Populous video for the Ford Plant and Drew Mansion transactions, maybe not, I'm not sure about that, but you speak as though you have some inside info on this.Quote
I thought he spoke as if he's I dunno maybe..READ a few articles that mentioned the buyers of both the Drew Mansion AND Ford Plant say for a fact that Khans interest in the area is what also peaked theirs as well. Doesn't take insider info to read. Everyones so quick to want to school somebody else without first going to class themselves.
Tony Khan just bought a sports analytical engineering firm based in Boston. Perhaps one of the first tenants for the offices at the Shipyards!! Just kidding! It is a small company employee wise,,although they did state they will be expanding their products.
Quote from: Marle Brando on February 26, 2015, 04:40:28 PM
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on February 26, 2015, 03:18:47 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on February 26, 2015, 10:05:20 AM
^ Perfect response MM, and incredibly true.
Ennis, on the Landing, to me we're talking apples and oranges here. The Landing as it exists isn't perfect, but it has its use as a semi-iconic civic gathering space. Sleiman requested $12.8 million to basically neuter the space and turn it into a suburban apartment complex. Retail was limited, the courtyard that has become one of the primary gathering spots in the city was removed, and the thin strip of public space was separated from the "Landing" by a road. I don't get the impression that the public outcry was over the specific dollar contribution, but rather to the terrible design presented by Sleiman, coupled with his "taking my ball and going home" attitude when the city council suggested that public input was needed. If Sleiman's proposal would have been stronger and presented a new Landing that truly benefit the city, I think we would have seen a more favorable reaction.
Conversely, I think many, many, many (three manys!) people see Khan's proposed Shipyards development as a genuine way to increase quality of life in Jacksonville and kickstart a broader redevelopment of downtown at large. I think the average informed Jacksonville citizen realizes that no developer is going to clean up our mess for us, and that even if we have to open up the checkbook for remediation, riverwalk extension, and mooring of the USS Adams, these are all necessary improvements we'll eventually be on the hook for anyway.
The Populous video is a compelling visual, but it's just mere fantastical animation. The link between that video and an increased quality of life for all 840 square miles of so of Jacksonville has yet to be established. You are correct that the Shipyards property is the city's mess to clean, and that clean-up should be a near-term imperative, but once it is cleaned, it is far more valuable and appealing to lots of developers and project managers besides just Iguana.
Quote
Others might disagree, with I'm fine with the Shipyards being a short-term loss leader for a broader revitalization of downtown Jacksonville. We've already seen two major land purchases in the area partially credited to Khan's vision for the area (the Ford Plant, and the Drew Mansion in Springfield). Strategically, working with Khan ties the Jaguars to downtown Jacksonville, and puts the project in the hands of someone who has the drive, motivation, and capital to deliver as promised. And allocating the incremental tax revenue specifically for the Shipyards is fine in my book as well. Compare our sports complex -- which also receives specially allocated tax revenue for upkeep and remains one of the crown jewels of our city -- with the rest of our crumbling infrastructure.
What Khan has done is promotion. Maybe one can credit his Populous video for the Ford Plant and Drew Mansion transactions, maybe not, I'm not sure about that, but you speak as though you have some inside info on this.Quote
I thought he spoke as if he's I dunno maybe..READ a few articles that mentioned the buyers of both the Drew Mansion AND Ford Plant say for a fact that Khans interest in the area is what also peaked theirs as well. Doesn't take insider info to read. Everyones so quick to want to school somebody else without first going to class themselves.
Not sure what you mean by schooling someone and going to class, but presumably more due diligence went into the land transactions than just an announcement and video. Redmond attributed the Ford sale to the Khan buzz, but he is selling. I haven't seen where we've actually heard from the buyers. Yes, we can go on the seller's version of events, but he and his four or five other partners are ready to exit. I haven't seen a record of the buyer's actual motives for the transaction, and whether actually compelled by Khan's presentation. But again, that's neither here nor there, the point is that Khan has no skin in the game. Way too soon to draw conclusions on these plans and this deal.
That's the thing. Nobody's drawing any conclusions here. People are merely expressing what they think, what they've heard, or what they hope will happen with the development. Everyone understands nothing is a conclusion until the dotted lines are signed. So chill guy, just as you speculate what you feel about Khans minimal risk, so can others express otherwise. No need to get bent over the uniformed, outsider discussions here. All of our info comes from the same sources available to the public. Geez. And yeah Khan should probably take on more risk but since my opinion doesn't sway the race, I just hope it gets done whether this deal or slightly altered one. If it takes this to be able to be more competitive, more attractive, more suitable for young professionals in Jax I'm for it. If it takes this to move the negative energy and backwards attitude so saturated in Jax so be it. If it takes this to get my city to finally act on Hogan Creek and LEARN how to play with the big boys in negotiations let's go!
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on February 26, 2015, 03:18:47 PM
And the 80/20 split is atrocious. Yes, it may seem like it's not a big deal now with the property being as contaminated as it is, but once it's cleaned-up and being parceled off to 3rd parties, taxpayers should definitely reap more benefits on those land sales.
So, are you concerned with the City making a profit off the land sales? I'm not. If the City ends up with $50M in the Shipyards land, I am perfectly fine if the City gets $50M out of the development and a blighted piece of waterfront property is transformed into a significant and thriving development. This concept that the Shipyards land is a City asset that is appreciating over time is foolish. It's not. The City should be concerned with its capital contribution netting to zero with the hope that the Shipyards development provides a much needed spark to downtown.
^^^Agreed. But assuming a 20% split on proceeds from land sales, and earning out $50M from these proceeds, that implies that the Shipyards land is worth $250M.
I personally would contend that even after cleanup/riverwalk, etc, the land is still basically worthless (probably part of the reason why Khan wants 80%). The land is only worth what you can build on it, and there's no proven market for building anything in DT Jax at this point. Every product type is severely worthless or shown to be worthless, especially when you weigh in replacement cost/new construction vs just buying an existing building. The only thing that might be worth something is multi - but do we want the whole thing lined with 220 Riversides? And even then, with the "high" rents they're getting at 220 Riverside, those rents are still not high enough to justify a substantial land cost.
Quote from: MEGATRON on February 27, 2015, 10:26:49 AM
So, are you concerned with the City making a profit off the land sales? I'm not. If the City ends up with $50M in the Shipyards land, I am perfectly fine if the City gets $50M out of the development and a blighted piece of waterfront property is transformed into a significant and thriving development. This concept that the Shipyards land is a City asset that is appreciating over time is foolish. It's not. The City should be concerned with its capital contribution netting to zero with the hope that the Shipyards development provides a much needed spark to downtown.
Agreed. If the city breaks even on the entire deal, not only am I okay with that, they actually in because all of that land will then be private, and on the tax rolls.
Quote from: simms3 on February 27, 2015, 12:28:54 PMI personally would contend that even after cleanup/riverwalk, etc, the land is still basically worthless (probably part of the reason why Khan wants 80%). The land is only worth what you can build on it, and there's no proven market for building anything in DT Jax at this point.
Putting the environmental aspect aside (which the city clearly will have to do for any developer), I do think a comprehensive, multi-use development will create a market.
For example, let's say in 1995 you built a Pottery Barn and an apartment complex. It might do okay. However, if you build the rest of Town Center around both of them, then all of a sudden both are successful
^^^At the end of the day, though, this is isn't a self-sustaining bubble "live-work-play" load of bs. It's all still contingent on "Downtown Jacksonville", which needs to rise up with the Shipyards, or there will be no Shipyards. This location is also difficult as it's forced to be somewhat self-sustaining, and yet on its own it can't be. Kind of a lot of catch 22's.
Developers aren't going to be looking at the Shipyards in a bubble (the figurative "if you build it they will come") like they actually MAY for parts of the Southside, or similarly transformative developments in already hot markets like Denver Union Station. If a big office announcement is made, perhaps that is viewed as a "signal" that the market is about to be hot. I'll wait and hope for that kind of announcement.
Quote from: MEGATRON on February 27, 2015, 10:26:49 AM
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on February 26, 2015, 03:18:47 PM
And the 80/20 split is atrocious. Yes, it may seem like it's not a big deal now with the property being as contaminated as it is, but once it's cleaned-up and being parceled off to 3rd parties, taxpayers should definitely reap more benefits on those land sales.
So, are you concerned with the City making a profit off the land sales? I'm not. If the City ends up with $50M in the Shipyards land, I am perfectly fine if the City gets $50M out of the development and a blighted piece of waterfront property is transformed into a significant and thriving development. This concept that the Shipyards land is a City asset that is appreciating over time is foolish. It's not. The City should be concerned with its capital contribution netting to zero with the hope that the Shipyards development provides a much needed spark to downtown.
I'm concerned with the City "giving up" 80% of the land sale proceeds. What entitles Iguana to 80% of the proceeds? The city spends money cleaning the property, installing some basic infrastructure on the site and surrounding sites, and insulating it from municipal bond-holders. Iguana owns it, and then turns around and sells the property that has just been cleaned up by the city, to a 3rd party developer for some sum.
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on February 27, 2015, 03:40:33 PM
Quote from: MEGATRON on February 27, 2015, 10:26:49 AM
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on February 26, 2015, 03:18:47 PM
And the 80/20 split is atrocious. Yes, it may seem like it's not a big deal now with the property being as contaminated as it is, but once it's cleaned-up and being parceled off to 3rd parties, taxpayers should definitely reap more benefits on those land sales.
So, are you concerned with the City making a profit off the land sales? I'm not. If the City ends up with $50M in the Shipyards land, I am perfectly fine if the City gets $50M out of the development and a blighted piece of waterfront property is transformed into a significant and thriving development. This concept that the Shipyards land is a City asset that is appreciating over time is foolish. It's not. The City should be concerned with its capital contribution netting to zero with the hope that the Shipyards development provides a much needed spark to downtown.
I'm concerned with the City "giving up" 80% of the land sale proceeds. What entitles Iguana to 80% of the proceeds? The city spends money cleaning the property, installing some basic infrastructure on the site and surrounding sites, and insulating it from municipal bond-holders. Iguana owns it, and then turns around and sells the property that has just been cleaned up by the city, to a 3rd party developer for some sum.
Why? Are you that hung up on the City making a profit on the Shipyards? I'm far more concerned with the City holding the property, being on the hook for the environmental cleanup (which it is not currently, but will be if it does not divest it soon), then being in the same predicament in five years.
If the City could have developed that property own it's own, it would have happened by now. Get it into the hands of someone who can, spur growth downtown, and wash your hands of some environmental liability. Let's stop thinking that the City should be in the real estate development business when it struggles meeting the requirements of those functions for which it is responsible.
^that's exactly the point. Who in city government has ever negotiated large development deals? This is an unproductive asset. The city can only benefit by letting someone try to turn the footprint into something that creates a long term revenue stream for all citizens. COJ just doesn't have the juice to maximize price, splits, or outcome.
Quote from: downtownbrown on February 27, 2015, 05:24:52 PM
^that's exactly the point. Who in city government has ever negotiated large development deals? This is an unproductive asset. The city can only benefit by letting someone try to turn the footprint into something that creates a long term revenue stream for all citizens. COJ just doesn't have the juice to maximize price, splits, or outcome.
How about Economic Development Director Ted Carter, who is a former exec at CBRE? Would you say Khan has more development experience than he does?
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2012/11/16/commercial-real-estate-exec-from-dc.html
Or DIA Director Aundra Wallace. Carter was hired at $195k and Wallace at $180k.
If those guys aren't capable of getting a decent deal on behalf of the city, then perhaps the city needs to re-evaluate those positions. To suggest that Khan is the only one that can make something happen with the property once its remediated is ridiculous. As has been said by myself and others, if Khan wants to have some skin in the game and make a substantial investment...giving him the land is fine. The city can't remediate it, and then give him a blank check without some assurances though.
I think jaxnyc is mainly concerned with the city getting closer to breaking even off of this, or covering some losses. The city's already in relatively deep, and will effectively double or maybe even triple its basis in the site without reaping any substantial benefits from selling the land to private interests.
If for anything at all, the city should get closer to a 50-50 split simply for PR and for covering its political tracks with the public (and in my opinion that would benefit Khan too if he wants to continue to be seen as the Lord Almighty savior of Jax and get away with taking advantage of the taxpayers to a degree). But putting more taxpayer money into the land, and then giving it away, and allowing all future tax revenue from any development that occurs on the site to go back into the site (upfront), into private hands, is a major major lose-lose for the taxpayer.
Effectively, the city is spending a fortune on legal, on sunk/lost money on prior development deals, on remediation, cleanup, and improvements, and at most will get a few million back, while someone else with virtually no skin in the game can own the land and decide what to do next - sell to other group(s) for a profit for his investment vehicle, partner in development deals for his investment vehicle (where at least he's taking on risk), or sit on the land and do nothing, at no cost.
Nobody's hoping the city turns a big buck here. The city's not a for profit business anyway. However, if in the fat chance the city is ever trying to do something else (like build transit, convention center, more riverwalks, new parks, etc), it could turn a profit on a land sale such as this and recycle that cash somewhere else. That's really what would be the ultimate goal. However, I think we all understand this is Jacksonville.
If the city can't afford to mow road median lawns or replace street lights, then I don't think it can afford to effectively give away some of its most potentially valuable land (relatively speaking), and especially AFTER spending money (a fortune for Jax, too) to make it potentially valuable. It's already giving away tax revenues on the land.
Frankly, I wish the city would just do ground leases. Lots of similar pieces of land in other cities are owned by government entities, or ports, etc, and are on ground leases with minimal issues for seeing development.
The Landing appears to be moving forward, and that's on a ground lease. It was pegged as a concern before (because who doesn't want to outright own the land), but now that a more market-based approach has been designed and penciled out, looks like nobody's having any issues with that ground lease now. And the city still owns the land and has ultimate say, while Sleiman can redevelop the Landing basically to his liking, and from a financial perspective, the taxpayers don't lose out so bad.
Quote from: CityLife on February 27, 2015, 06:38:50 PM
Quote from: downtownbrown on February 27, 2015, 05:24:52 PM
^that's exactly the point. Who in city government has ever negotiated large development deals? This is an unproductive asset. The city can only benefit by letting someone try to turn the footprint into something that creates a long term revenue stream for all citizens. COJ just doesn't have the juice to maximize price, splits, or outcome.
How about Economic Development Director Ted Carter, who is a former exec at CBRE? Would you say Khan has more development experience than he does?
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2012/11/16/commercial-real-estate-exec-from-dc.html
Or DIA Director Aundra Wallace. Carter was hired at $195k and Wallace at $180k.
If those guys aren't capable of getting a decent deal on behalf of the city, then perhaps the city needs to re-evaluate those positions. To suggest that Khan is the only one that can make something happen with the property once its remediated is ridiculous. As has been said by myself and others, if Khan wants to have some skin in the game and make a substantial investment...giving him the land is fine. The city can't remediate it, and then give him a blank check without some assurances though.
Carter and Wallace still have to get approvals through the city. How has that worked out?
Regardless, I guess you view this as an asset the city should profit from, even if that risks it's development?
Quote from: MEGATRON on February 27, 2015, 06:59:38 PM
Quote from: CityLife on February 27, 2015, 06:38:50 PM
Quote from: downtownbrown on February 27, 2015, 05:24:52 PM
^that's exactly the point. Who in city government has ever negotiated large development deals? This is an unproductive asset. The city can only benefit by letting someone try to turn the footprint into something that creates a long term revenue stream for all citizens. COJ just doesn't have the juice to maximize price, splits, or outcome.
How about Economic Development Director Ted Carter, who is a former exec at CBRE? Would you say Khan has more development experience than he does?
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2012/11/16/commercial-real-estate-exec-from-dc.html
Or DIA Director Aundra Wallace. Carter was hired at $195k and Wallace at $180k.
If those guys aren't capable of getting a decent deal on behalf of the city, then perhaps the city needs to re-evaluate those positions. To suggest that Khan is the only one that can make something happen with the property once its remediated is ridiculous. As has been said by myself and others, if Khan wants to have some skin in the game and make a substantial investment...giving him the land is fine. The city can't remediate it, and then give him a blank check without some assurances though.
Regardless, I guess you view this as an asset the city should profit from, even if that risks it's development?
I've never said that at all, and I actually don't know that anyone in the entire thread has. Simply stating the city shouldn't get raked over the coals by Khan if he isn't going make contractual promises that he has deliver on.
I'm going to stop participating in this beating of a dead horse, but will expound on it a whole lot more if Khan does have an unfavorable proposal. For all we know, he may have grandiose projects already lined up and we may all just be spinning our wheels here.
Quote from: CityLife on February 27, 2015, 07:17:27 PM
Quote from: MEGATRON on February 27, 2015, 06:59:38 PM
Quote from: CityLife on February 27, 2015, 06:38:50 PM
Quote from: downtownbrown on February 27, 2015, 05:24:52 PM
^that's exactly the point. Who in city government has ever negotiated large development deals? This is an unproductive asset. The city can only benefit by letting someone try to turn the footprint into something that creates a long term revenue stream for all citizens. COJ just doesn't have the juice to maximize price, splits, or outcome.
How about Economic Development Director Ted Carter, who is a former exec at CBRE? Would you say Khan has more development experience than he does?
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2012/11/16/commercial-real-estate-exec-from-dc.html
Or DIA Director Aundra Wallace. Carter was hired at $195k and Wallace at $180k.
If those guys aren't capable of getting a decent deal on behalf of the city, then perhaps the city needs to re-evaluate those positions. To suggest that Khan is the only one that can make something happen with the property once its remediated is ridiculous. As has been said by myself and others, if Khan wants to have some skin in the game and make a substantial investment...giving him the land is fine. The city can't remediate it, and then give him a blank check without some assurances though.
Regardless, I guess you view this as an asset the city should profit from, even if that risks it's development?
I've never said that at all, and I actually don't know that anyone in the entire thread has. Simply stating the city shouldn't get raked over the coals by Khan if he isn't going make contractual promises that he has deliver on.
I'm going to stop participating in this beating of a dead horse, but will expound on it a whole lot more if Khan does have an unfavorable proposal. For all we know, he may have grandiose projects already lined up and we may all just be spinning our wheels here.
If Khan has real stuff up his sleeve, the city should have full disclosure, and if that is the case, then the city DEFINITELY should not just hand over the land. Of course there's going to be nothing at this point since at most, anything is just vision, which is mostly meaningless to most people.
If Khan has something up his sleeve, then the city should sell him the land at market rate; no 80-20 bs. Then of course that just implies Khan is a middleman. There's no reason the city can't just RFP at that point; and there's nobody out there who would increase their cost by going through a middleman like Khan versus dealing directly with the city simply because they feel they must go through Khan (again, the idea of extremely highly paid broker comes up).
I'm pretty sure there is nothing yet, or we wouldn't be having this discussion and the city would have RFP'd. Of course, the implied assumption here is that once the land is cleaned up and improved, only Khan can go out and get someone to take a look at it, and the city would only spin its wheels by running an RFP.
At the end of the day, it would be nice to have the city clean the land, run and RFP, and then Khan comes and pitches, amongst other groups.
Quote from: simms3 on February 27, 2015, 06:56:42 PM
I think jaxnyc is mainly concerned with the city getting closer to breaking even off of this, or covering some losses. The city's already in relatively deep, and will effectively double or maybe even triple its basis in the site without reaping any substantial benefits from selling the land to private interests.
If for anything at all, the city should get closer to a 50-50 split simply for PR and for covering its political tracks with the public (and in my opinion that would benefit Khan too if he wants to continue to be seen as the Lord Almighty savior of Jax and get away with taking advantage of the taxpayers to a degree). But putting more taxpayer money into the land, and then giving it away, and allowing all future tax revenue from any development that occurs on the site to go back into the site (upfront), into private hands, is a major major lose-lose for the taxpayer.
Effectively, the city is spending a fortune on legal, on sunk/lost money on prior development deals, on remediation, cleanup, and improvements, and at most will get a few million back, while someone else with virtually no skin in the game can own the land and decide what to do next - sell to other group(s) for a profit for his investment vehicle, partner in development deals for his investment vehicle (where at least he's taking on risk), or sit on the land and do nothing, at no cost.
Nobody's hoping the city turns a big buck here. The city's not a for profit business anyway. However, if in the fat chance the city is ever trying to do something else (like build transit, convention center, more riverwalks, new parks, etc), it could turn a profit on a land sale such as this and recycle that cash somewhere else. That's really what would be the ultimate goal. However, I think we all understand this is Jacksonville.
If the city can't afford to mow road median lawns or replace street lights, then I don't think it can afford to effectively give away some of its most potentially valuable land (relatively speaking), and especially AFTER spending money (a fortune for Jax, too) to make it potentially valuable. It's already giving away tax revenues on the land.
Frankly, I wish the city would just do ground leases. Lots of similar pieces of land in other cities are owned by government entities, or ports, etc, and are on ground leases with minimal issues for seeing development.
The Landing appears to be moving forward, and that's on a ground lease. It was pegged as a concern before (because who doesn't want to outright own the land), but now that a more market-based approach has been designed and penciled out, looks like nobody's having any issues with that ground lease now. And the city still owns the land and has ultimate say, while Sleiman can redevelop the Landing basically to his liking, and from a financial perspective, the taxpayers don't lose out so bad.
Well said, and I do agree.
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 17, 2015, 02:28:41 PM
It would be interesting to compare Khan's Shipyards proposal with that of Jeff Vinik's for the Channelside area in Tampa
Something tells me a story is in the works... ;)
Vinik was on Squawk Box this week talking about his development plans. What an outstanding ambassador for Tampa this guy is. Made Tampa sound like Paradise on a national TV show that attracts people with money. Imagine that sort of exposure for Jacksonville. The impact could be enormous. That's pretty much why I don't sweat the split details. This has the potential to be a huge multiplier for the city. If it doesn't happen, we'll be left with the only other option to get us out of the hole. Taxes. And more Taxes.
Well, all of this looks really f!@#ing amazing. Just one question, is this really going to go through? City council is notorious for shooting down plans like this.
Quote3) Where's the skyway connectivity? Still "under study?"
Does Khan even have any say-so over the skyway?
the reality is the Skyway, as currently configured, could not adequately serve the stadium area. JTA is engaged in a study to determine the long-term configuration and operation of the Skyway, and info. should be available by spring. The study is necessary as much of the Skyway technology is 25+ years old and maintenance costs have been growing.
Quote from: KenFSU on February 26, 2015, 10:05:20 AM
^ Perfect response MM, and incredibly true.
Ennis, on the Landing, to me we're talking apples and oranges here. The Landing as it exists isn't perfect, but it has its use as a semi-iconic civic gathering space. Sleiman requested $12.8 million to basically neuter the space and turn it into a suburban apartment complex. Retail was limited, the courtyard that has become one of the primary gathering spots in the city was removed, and the thin strip of public space was separated from the "Landing" by a road. I don't get the impression that the public outcry was over the specific dollar contribution, but rather to the terrible design presented by Sleiman, coupled with his "taking my ball and going home" attitude when the city council suggested that public input was needed. If Sleiman's proposal would have been stronger and presented a new Landing that truly benefit the city, I think we would have seen a more favorable reaction.
Conversely, I think many, many, many (three manys!) people see Khan's proposed Shipyards development as a genuine way to increase quality of life in Jacksonville and kickstart a broader redevelopment of downtown at large. I think the average informed Jacksonville citizen realizes that no developer is going to clean up our mess for us, and that even if we have to open up the checkbook for remediation, riverwalk extension, and mooring of the USS Adams, these are all necessary improvements we'll eventually be on the hook for anyway.
Others might disagree, with I'm fine with the Shipyards being a short-term loss leader for a broader revitalization of downtown Jacksonville. We've already seen two major land purchases in the area partially credited to Khan's vision for the area (the Ford Plant, and the Drew Mansion in Springfield). Strategically, working with Khan ties the Jaguars to downtown Jacksonville, and puts the project in the hands of someone who has the drive, motivation, and capital to deliver as promised. And allocating the incremental tax revenue specifically for the Shipyards is fine in my book as well. Compare our sports complex -- which also receives specially allocated tax revenue for upkeep and remains one of the crown jewels of our city -- with the rest of our crumbling infrastructure.
I think the city can probably negotiate a better than 80-20 split, but other than that, I really don't see anything terribly unreasonable with the Jaguars' terms, particularly when you consider the opportunity cost of either a) doing nothing with the site, or b) bringing in another developer who may not have the same incentive or capital to see the project to conclusion.
People might hate him, but Paul Harden is a pretty smart guy. He's well aware of what the city can and cannot reasonably afford, and surely the Jaguars are familiar with how quickly capital improvement projects can die in Jacksonville if the developer asks for too much.
Terms can be negotiated, but in my opinion, the project is a no brainer.
The city will never develop the Shipyards on its own, and if they did, it would cost five times as much, take twice as long, and fall apart within a decade. It's the Jacksonville way.
No one has showed any genuine, credible interest in developing the site in a decade.
Now, you've got a multi-billionaire with international ties who is committed to Jacksonville, has an intimate understanding of the market, and who is shaking with excitement over developing the property. He's got a great vision that makes downtown a destination, solidifies one of our biggest assets (the Jaguars) in Jacksonville once their lease runs out, and serves to give Jacksonville something it has struggled for decades to gain -- a recognizable identity.
It's the right project in the right spot with the right developer at the right time.
Opportunities like this come around but once or twice in a lifetime in a city like Jacksonville.
Just to clarify ken's comments, Paul Harden is not the smartest lawyer around but the person who possesses the strings of city council and votes. I'm not sure but maybe he knows "where the bodies are'? Khan only needs him to lobby City Council. He's not on Team "Khan" for any other reason. He lobbied City Council for Scoreboards and other needs for Khan, for Wayne weaver, for developers, and etc. For whatever reason, City Council has tolerated the pull & strength he seems to yield over them. I'm hoping a new City Council will refuse dirty tricks, money, bribes, back door deals from Paul Harden.
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 01, 2015, 02:25:25 PM
The study is necessary as much of the Skyway technology is 25+ years old and maintenance costs have been growing.
Out of curiosity, what have Miami and Detroit done. As in, did they upgrade the technology or is it still aging with costs increasing?
QuoteAt the end of the day, it would be nice to have the city clean the land, run and RFP, and then Khan comes and pitches, amongst other groups.
Perfect! And I also agree with you on the land lease. Should structure this and all future projects just as they did with the Landing.
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on March 01, 2015, 10:20:16 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 01, 2015, 02:25:25 PM
The study is necessary as much of the Skyway technology is 25+ years old and maintenance costs have been growing.
Out of curiosity, what have Miami and Detroit done. As in, did they upgrade the technology or is it still aging with costs increasing?
Jax switched from Matra rubber-wheeled technology to Bombardier's monorail in 1997. Miami's Metromover originally used cars built by Westinghouse in 1984. The fleet was replaced in 2008 by rubber wheeled vehicles manufactured by Bombardier. Detroit's Peoplemover used the same technology as Vancouver's SkyTrain when it opened in 1987. It now uses Bombardier cars running in pairs. In short, the other systems have been upgraded. The time is coming when we'll have to decide to upgrade or replace much of the Skyway system.
Business might have just picked up.
Looks like there is a competing developer planning to bid on Shipyards site.
$1.4 billion investment, and the developer claims he would not only buy the land, but pay for the cleanup.
"Jacksonville Mega Yacht Club" is his plan.
A combination of public space, market, and mega yacht repair facility.
Courtesy Stephanie Brown, WOKV, who's live tweeting the DIA meeting.
Quote from: KenFSU on March 06, 2015, 11:10:16 AM
Business might have just picked up.
Looks like there is a competing developer planning to bid on Shipyards site.
$1.4 billion investment, and the developer claims he would not only buy the land, but pay for the cleanup.
"Jacksonville Mega Yacht Club" is his plan.
A combination of public space, market, and mega yacht repair facility.
Courtesy Stephanie Brown, WOKV, who's live tweeting the DIA meeting.
(http://www.wearysloth.com/Gallery/ActorsB/tve762-19641121-136.jpg)
This mega-yacht repair shop bid has got to be fake, right? This dude says he will pay for the land, pay for the environmental cleanup, AND BUY A DOWNTOWN BUILDING to relocate his company's corporate headquarters to Downtown Jacksonville? If that is his plan, where was he prior to Khan's proposal? And how does it make sense to move your mega-yacht shop to Jacksonville, where there is exactly one owner of one "mega-yacht" who stays here part time, from South Florida, where there are many more mega-yachts in-and-out of there year-round?
This is a joke, right?
Quote from: KenFSU on March 06, 2015, 11:10:16 AM
Business might have just picked up.
Looks like there is a competing developer planning to bid on Shipyards site.
$1.4 billion investment, and the developer claims he would not only buy the land, but pay for the cleanup.
"Jacksonville Mega Yacht Club" is his plan.
A combination of public space, market, and mega yacht repair facility.
Courtesy Stephanie Brown, WOKV, who's live tweeting the DIA meeting.
How's this for a rumor. Search on Felix Sabates and Trinity Yachts. Trinity is based in New Orleans, Felix in Charlotte. Commong denominiator? NASCAR! and Daytona is just down the road. Felix has the juice. I love it.
Interesting.... Get paid for the land "as is" and get a smaller shipyard with some public space and a market thrown in. Or give away the land for free, pay for the clean up and let Khan be the master developer of something that will include a training facility for the Jags? So what will it be?
http://www.yachtingmagazine.com/nascar-yacht-club
No brainer?????
The heart of NASCAR country, North Carolina is home to many of the owners and drivers, including Felix Sabates. Sabates is a multi-team co-owner along with Chip Ganassi. He's also an avid yachtsman and one of the owners of custom yacht builder Trinity Yachts in New Orleans. First came the laugh, then the amiable Sabates filled in a few of the key details, the most important being confirmation of the club's shadowy existence.
The alternate developer claims that he would even be willing to buy land around the stadium and build a practice field for the Jaguars, if requested.
Be interesting to see what the proposal looks like, but on the surface, it sounds a little outlandish.
Probably more to come. Tim Gibbons is also tweeting from the meeting and says:
DIA CEO Wallace suggests 30 days window for other Shipyards submittal. Long enough for developers "if they are serious about it".
Quote from: downtownbrown on March 06, 2015, 11:30:09 AM
How's this for a rumor. Search on Felix Sabates and Trinity Yachts. Trinity is based in New Orleans, Felix in Charlotte. Commong denominiator? NASCAR! and Daytona is just down the road. Felix has the juice. I love it.
Where'd the name Felix Sabates and Trinity Yachts pop up? The only name I've seen mentioned for this new mystery proposal is Patrick Mullen / Shitaki Enterprises / Shitaki Marine & Yacht Refinishing.
Edit: Reading that over again I think I misread your post as you disputing the earlier posts with info you'd heard. Carry on... ;)
The Mullen guy supposedly has a home in Jax. Says woukd move HQ to Jax. Has 85 employees now. Expect 250 in 18 months and 5k in 5 years. Hmmm. Seems even more pie in sky than Khans pretty pictures.
Quote from: hiddentrack on March 06, 2015, 12:09:49 PM
Quote from: downtownbrown on March 06, 2015, 11:30:09 AM
How's this for a rumor. Search on Felix Sabates and Trinity Yachts. Trinity is based in New Orleans, Felix in Charlotte. Commong denominiator? NASCAR! and Daytona is just down the road. Felix has the juice. I love it.
Where'd the name Felix Sabates and Trinity Yachts pop up? The only name I've seen mentioned for this new mystery proposal is Patrick Mullen / Shitaki Enterprises / Shitaki Marine & Yacht Refinishing.
Edit: Reading that over again I think I misread your post as you disputing the earlier posts with info you'd heard. Carry on... ;)
Completely out of thin air.
Quote from: edjax on March 06, 2015, 12:34:25 PM
The Mullen guy supposedly has a home in Jax. Says woukd move HQ to Jax. Has 85 employees now. Expect 250 in 18 months and 5k in 5 years. Hmmm. Seems even more pie in sky than Khans pretty pictures.
Another pied piper to get everyone's hopes up? Are we falling for this one again?
Quote from: copperfiend on March 06, 2015, 01:24:38 PM
Quote from: edjax on March 06, 2015, 12:34:25 PM
The Mullen guy supposedly has a home in Jax. Says woukd move HQ to Jax. Has 85 employees now. Expect 250 in 18 months and 5k in 5 years. Hmmm. Seems even more pie in sky than Khans pretty pictures.
Another pied piper to get everyone's hopes up? Are we falling for this one again?
From 85 employees to 5,000 within 5 years.
Sounds perfectly reasonable to me ;)
http://www.wokv.com/news/news/local/second-bid-shipyards-redevelopment-comes-forward/nkP6q/
totally different concept. No northbank riverwalk to the stadium
Is this other "bidder" just a fabrication of Khan to make his shipyards concept, which is lacking, look even better?
Quote from: thelakelander on March 06, 2015, 11:33:07 AM
Interesting.... Get paid for the land "as is" and get a smaller shipyard with some public space and a market thrown in. Or give away the land for free, pay for the clean up and let Khan be the master developer of something that will include a training facility for the Jags? So what will it be?
Throwing everything else out, I don't think industrial is the way to go with the Shipyards property.
Per the developer, approximately 2/3 of the site would be used for ship repair.
Not sure if the logistics would allow it, but something like this seems better fit for Commodore Point than the Shipyards.
If this proposal is legit (which I doubt), it could go plenty of other places.
"Between 1997 and 2008 there was a massive growth in the number, size and popularity of large private or super-luxury yachts," the presentation says in one of several slides that appear to have been copied from Wikipedia.
ahahahahaha
Yep. We are being punked for sure.
Quote from: JBTripper on March 06, 2015, 02:07:03 PM
Yep. We are being punked for sure.
Watch...city of Jacksonville going to think this is real..
Quote from: PeeJayEss on March 06, 2015, 01:37:08 PM
Is this other "bidder" just a fabrication of Khan to make his shipyards concept, which is lacking, look even better?
It seemed more like a way to take the shine off Khan's proposal so people can talk about a developer offering to 1) buy the property from the city and 2) cover site cleanup.
Of course everything I've read about this new proposal makes it seem like it's not very serious. I also don't see how turning 2/3 of the property into a yacht repair facility comes anywhere close to meeting DIA's vision for the property.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 06, 2015, 11:33:07 AM
Interesting.... Get paid for the land "as is" and get a smaller shipyard with some public space and a market thrown in. Or give away the land for free, pay for the clean up and let Khan be the master developer of something that will include a training facility for the Jags? So what will it be?
Yea, I think I will be going with Khan in this one. Me thinks this one is a bit even more far fetched. Not to mention my guess not really in line with the DIA's plans for downtown.
It's a complete non-starter. The guys says No Riverwalk because 2/3 of it will be a "restricted area". Go away.
Quote from: Rynjny on March 06, 2015, 02:08:18 PM
Quote from: JBTripper on March 06, 2015, 02:07:03 PM
Yep. We are being punked for sure.
Watch...city of Jacksonville going to think this is real..
I have no doubt the News4Jax comments section will get behind it
I think this guy must have looked at the calendar wrong and thought today was April 1st. Regardless. Hit the road jack.
Wow, that made for a good laugh.
Hmm. If this guy has that kind of money and just wants incentives, there are plenty of other waterfront areas he could buy. Even Downtown. The whole Ford plant went for just 4 million.
But it does show that once it's out there, there's more interest in the property than we tell ourselves.
Quote from: Rynjny on March 06, 2015, 02:08:18 PM
Quote from: JBTripper on March 06, 2015, 02:07:03 PM
Yep. We are being punked for sure.
Watch...city of Jacksonville going to think this is real..
Seems like an appraisal to determine the property's value is in order. Assuming it's in the $40 million range, if the guy is willing to pony up the cash on the front end, then it's time to turn to Khan and see if he's willing to up his offer to something comparable. If not, then with the public on the hook to clean the property up, we could be looking at a $70-75 million difference. That's a huge number to for a broke city.
If both of these dudes are serious, then I'm not picking and choosing. Norfolk Elizabeth River/Las Olas Fort Lauderdale, here I come! I'd consider attempting to sell that contaminated piece of industrial dirt and work with Khan to revamp his proposal to address Metropolitan Park, the area formerly known as Kids Kampus and the surface lots around EverBank Field. Then that Shipyards cash earned can be used to help the underfunded DIA get a few other downtown proposals and desired projects off the ground. If yacht guy isn't serious, then so be it, no loss on Jax's end.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/plog-content/images/learning-from/norfolkva/p1020396.JPG)
Quote from: Tacachale on March 06, 2015, 02:56:27 PM
Hmm. If this guy has that kind of money and just wants incentives, there are plenty of other waterfront areas he could buy. Even Downtown. The whole Ford plant went for just 4 million.
But it does show that once it's out there, there's more interest in the property than we tell ourselves.
The Ford plant wouldn't be suitable for a large repair facility. Since Crowley recently announced that they may be abandoning their Talleyrand terminal, that property could be worth looking at. With that said, Tacachale is on point. There probably is more interest in the property than we tell ourselves. So we should think long and hard about simply giving it away.
Ennis, the DIA pushed for an expedited appraisal at today's meeting.
I believe they hope to have it completed within 30-45 days.
Quote from: KenFSU on March 06, 2015, 11:10:16 AM
Business might have just picked up.
Looks like there is a competing developer planning to bid on Shipyards site.
$1.4 billion investment, and the developer claims he would not only buy the land, but pay for the cleanup.
"Jacksonville Mega Yacht Club" is his plan.
A combination of public space, market, and mega yacht repair facility.
Courtesy Stephanie Brown, WOKV, who's live tweeting the DIA meeting.
But will there be an iconic observation tower with an aquarium and suspended practice football fields and ferris wheel with zip lines?
I won't address the validity of this kind of venture (the Mooneyhan factor let's call it) but I will say this would have tremendous benefits to the city if it became a reality. Having a few dozen Khans floating around downtown Jacksonville? Heck, it could make some of Khan's plans somewhat feasible.
Quote from: edjax on March 06, 2015, 12:34:25 PM
The Mullen guy supposedly has a home in Jax. Says woukd move HQ to Jax. Has 85 employees now. Expect 250 in 18 months and 5k in 5 years. Hmmm. Seems even more pie in sky than Khans pretty pictures.
With $1.4 billion to spend it's actually believable...if that money is actually there.
Quote from: JBTripper on March 06, 2015, 11:24:13 AM
And how does it make sense to move your mega-yacht shop to Jacksonville, where there is exactly one owner of one "mega-yacht" who stays here part time, from South Florida, where there are many more mega-yachts in-and-out of there year-round?
He says this is the closest to South Florida where he can get insurance for this type of operation during hurricane season. I guess our geographic location pays dividends once again.
If he truly wants to buils a shipyard for mega yachts it would seem there would be other sites in town that would work. Somewhere along Talleyrand? Crowley's terminal?
I can't think of any site along Talleyrand outside of Crowley's terminal that isn't already in use and suitable for ship repair. What else is out there?
From looking at Google Maps there are a few vacant industrial sites along the river. None that have anything left on them. I'm sure they're just as contaminated as the shipyards though.
^^^Good point. I don't know why both proposals are in competition for the same piece of real estate. I can't wait the see the 'super yacht' proposal that will be city money-free. It's interesting that the second plan calls for an 'international festival marketplace'. Sounds familiar like the Landing just west of the site.
Honestly, it's easier to find an alternative site for what Khan is proposing than it is for something that this particular site was built for. Going up Talleyrand, the biggest empty piece of dirt is the old Wilson & Toomer fertilizer plant near Deer Creek. It's contaminated and has been tied up in court for years. Then there is the old Bentley Shipyards site just south of the Mathews. However, whenever the Mathews is replaced, this property will disappear. Outside of that, you'll have a hard time finding industrial land with as much waterfront frontage that can easily accommodate a drydock or two for ships Khan's size. So I can see why the shipyards would be attractive for maritime related uses. I'm not attached to either proposal but if one is willing to pay and clean the property up, it's certainly worth serious consideration (assuming it's valid of course).
Sorry folks, I don't buy into any of this. Where was this guy? And Lakelander my only question is if there is more interest in the site than we think, where has everyone been? Like my comments on the other thread I know Khan is not spending a lot of his money on his plan but I think he can attract serious people to invest. And I will repeat my frustration; the shipyards closed 23 years ago and 15 years after the first "plan" nothing has happened except the loss of the River City Music Sheds.
And......
Here we go again I suspect we will be discussing the new proposal for the shipyards in another 15 years. And another debate about who will pay, who will clean up and who has the best proposal for this project.
(Sorry I've become a complete cynic about what happens downtown, especially this particular site.)
When I retire I may go ahead and move to Southside where all the amenities are. I can visit downtown on occasion like most Jax people.
I really hope I'm wrong on this one.
Blame the COJ and the economy for few proposals from the private sector over the years. No vision, bad market and contamination will slow down interest. Nevertheless, there have been interested parties over the years. Killashee and IAW are two. None of it matters without an RFP and the city letting it or a part of it go. I hope more than Khan and this guy respond to the upcoming RFP. Hopefully the proposal that brings the most benefit to the tax payer wins. The two we know of are both full of holes at this point. The RFP should help sort out reality from fantasy. If the best response happens to be a party other than Khan's group, so be it.
^^^Lake, what do you think about super luxury yacht proposal mentioning an 'international festival marketplace'? I know that the proposal hasn't been seen yet, but does that sound too much like the Landing or what?
Quote from: thelakelander on March 07, 2015, 12:21:00 PM
The RFP should help sort out reality from fantasy. If the best response happens to be a party other than Khan's group, so be it.
The way I look at it is that Khan couldn't care less WHO develops the property as long as it fits into his plan of integrating the core with the Jaguars and giving thousands of tourists that visit from August to December more reason to come visit the city.
IMO, he did what he had to do to ensure the ball got rolling in the right direction. Kind of a crappy analogy, but it's not a fight until someone throws a punch, which Khan did with his proposal. Now that the interest is there, I'm positive he'll use his influence (read - $$$$) to guarantee that whatever happens fits into his plans, but as Lake and others have pointed out, now that the ball is rolling, we need to ensure that we get what's best for us.
When (and if) this goes down, I would still give Khan the majority of the credit for making it happen.
Quote from: I-10east on March 07, 2015, 12:50:48 PM
^^^Lake, what do you think about super luxury yacht proposal mentioning an 'international festival marketplace'? I know that the proposal hasn't been seen yet, but does that sound too much like the Landing or what?
When I read "market", I picture a public market with seafood, meat, floral, cheese, bakery vendors, etc. The closest thing we have to that is the Jacksonville Farmers Market on Beaver. The retail, dining and entertainment suited for the Landing is more in line with the type of retail in Khan's plan. Nevertheless, it's too early to get caught up on conceptual uses at this point. The major differences right now is that one has a football training complex and the other has a yacht repair facility. That, and one wants the land for free and the other is willing to pay for it. The RFP should get us further detail and expose any other interested parties.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 07, 2015, 01:50:12 PM
Quote from: I-10east on March 07, 2015, 12:50:48 PM
^^^Lake, what do you think about super luxury yacht proposal mentioning an 'international festival marketplace'? I know that the proposal hasn't been seen yet, but does that sound too much like the Landing or what?
When I read "market", I picture a public market with seafood, meat, floral, cheese, bakery vendors, etc. The closest thing we have to that is the Jacksonville Farmers Market on Beaver. The retail, dining and entertainment suited for the Landing is more in line with the type of retail in Khan's plan. Nevertheless, it's too early to get caught up on conceptual uses at this point. The major differences right now is that one has a football training complex and the other has a yacht repair facility. That, and one wants the land for free and the other is willing to pay for it. The RFP should get us further detail and expose any other interested parties.
Shitaki's plans sound more like a mini Epcot. From WOKV:
QuoteWhile the boatyards would be restricted access, Shitaki Enterprises is also proposing a public international market. It's designed as a space where- by the road- the theme changes between countries. Retail and restaurants would be featured and the vendors would be authentic- Mullen says they plan to bring interested parties from the different countries to operate the stands.
I'd like to see the kind of public market you mention happen at the Landing, with that type of retail/dining/entertainment moving along Bay Street and becoming integrated into the Shipyards.
Between the two proposals, the Jaguars practice facilities looked like they would take up much less space than the proposed yacht repair facilities. For people who are hoping the shipyards property will incorporate as much public spaces possible, it could turn out to be a significant piece in Khan's favor.
That being said, I did like the post here several years back showing possible redevelopment around the stadiums, utilizing all those parking lots that sit empty most of the year. It will be interesting to see, if this second proposal or any others are serious, if we end up with any discussion about dividing up the property, where Khan gets some property along the river, which then stretches north closer to the stadium, with another developer or developers getting the remaining waterfront property for their projects.
If this guy is serious. If the city has cojones and MOJO still working in their favor. If Im CEO Wallace, I'm gifting Khan the Shipyards land up to Kids Campus. Then I'm selling of the MetroPark, Kids Campus to Mullen at the difference between the 15mil, and the amount it would take to clean Hogans Creek, site Remediation, and Bay st improvements. Then as a consolation, I'd gift Mullen the surface lots around the stadium for his market place idea, as well as the Jacksonville Fairgrounds Property. The Veterans Memorial wall/mural would be moved to Shipyards Next to the USS Adams Museum. The money from the city's raised percentage (35%) of Khans selling the shipyards land would be then diverted to the Landing and Laura Trio Project. I would then work with the owners of the WJCT station land and owners of the waterfront acreage from there to the Hart's Bridge for the private, non Riverwalk aspect of the Yatch Facilities. The Tailgate Lots in Talleyrand would then become my new Jacksonville Fairgrounds. The beauty of Public/Private Partnership, everybody wins. At most, the city will be on tab for its part of the mega-garages that will replace the current lots. As far as the aquarium is concern...Southbank school board building, MOSH land..I'm looking at you! Its all complicated but realistically achievable if all parties wanted to WIN, wanted a cohesive comprehensive plan in which an entire new district can realistically be developed.
The interest is there. The money is there. The ideas are there. Just get it done already Jacksonville, we can make it all happen simultaneously. Now enter naysayers and taxpayers :-\
^while you are at it, how about taking out the old courthouse parking lot and Coastal Drive and construct a world class Jacksonville Municipal Marina a la the Charleston City Marina. im sure it would be a popular way point for all the north/south seasonal traffic.
Before Marle Brando's post, most every one was writing without apparently giving any thought to the possibility -- possibility -- that this is also part of Shad's larger process. Who knows, maybe these two groups have even had formal or, at least, informal contact.
So much potential downtown, so much hope and faith in Shad. Lakelander talked of Shad's proposal (and this new one) being full of holes. Meat is going to be put on the bones, of that I'm certain. I'm also certain Shad has some aces in the hole and is simply waiting to show them once he is granted the development control he is seeking.
We'll soon see. One thing we do know; Shad has shaken (and is shaking) the tree. For that, I'm pleased.
85 to 5000 employees in 5 years is not fantasy. It's just a lie of ludicrous proportions. Maybe this guy has hated money having gone to the Jags; or doesn't like Mr. Khan; or wants to see a better deal for the city with Mr. Khan. Maybe he just took a shot because he's oh-so selfish and cynical, thinking the city would downplay the value of the property to make the deal with Khan's group more palatable for public consumption, thus opening an outside chance to put up cash, encapsulated with a fantastical employment promise, to get the property at a good price. No need to pay for the riverwalk extension, no need to give a crap about future, silly, irrelevant tax breaks for growing this impossible employment "promise" as presented. If he pulls it off it's because he sees morons, and the public gets to see the property linger as a passive investment wasteland for quite some more time.
If he does pull it off, the city could possibly end up +$75 million for DT development. Shipyards or another site, we can find ways to work with Khan. Availability of underutilized public land is not a problem in Jax. I can't wait to see the RFP results.
Quote from: downtownbrown on March 07, 2015, 04:46:17 PM
^while you are at it, how about taking out the old courthouse parking lot and Coastal Drive and construct a world class Jacksonville Municipal Marina a la the Charleston City Marina. im sure it would be a popular way point for all the north/south seasonal traffic.
Great idea! I would make this a part of my new Jacksonville Landing district. A wharf/marina would be a great place maker..along with a converted city hall annex into AFFORDABLE apartments for students, singles, professionals, and maybe a farmers/fish market integrated into the wharf. I'd be so disappointed if the city is operating with a closed minded approach and not opening up to the endless opportunities this moment in time offers us. I'm so nervous that we may not have the right officials in place with vision and know how to make the most of this golden opprtunity.
After reviewing all three threads which currently address Khan's Shipyard proposal, the history of the site, and the most recent failed proposals to develop the property, it's nearly impossible to see why the site has not been cleaned up yet. That is 100% on the city and of course nothing can be done without environmental remediation. There have been major proposals spanning the Delaney and Peyton administrations and throughout all that the City never stepped up and took care of the site. In the immediate vicinity you have the skeletal remains of Berkman II
and the hulking Dept of Corrections site, so you have to give Shad Khan some credit for evening stepping up and proposing something this grand. God help him.
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on March 06, 2015, 04:33:37 PM
I won't address the validity of this kind of venture (the Mooneyhan factor let's call it) but I will say this would have tremendous benefits to the city if it became a reality. Having a few dozen Khans floating around downtown Jacksonville? Heck, it could make some of Khan's plans somewhat feasible.
Quote from: edjax on March 06, 2015, 12:34:25 PM
The Mullen guy supposedly has a home in Jax. Says woukd move HQ to Jax. Has 85 employees now. Expect 250 in 18 months and 5k in 5 years. Hmmm. Seems even more pie in sky than Khans pretty pictures.
With $1.4 billion to spend it's actually believable...if that money is actually there.
Quote from: JBTripper on March 06, 2015, 11:24:13 AM
And how does it make sense to move your mega-yacht shop to Jacksonville, where there is exactly one owner of one "mega-yacht" who stays here part time, from South Florida, where there are many more mega-yachts in-and-out of there year-round?
He says this is the closest to South Florida where he can get insurance for this type of operation during hurricane season. I guess our geographic location pays dividends once again.
He says that, but I'm not sure that's how insurance works. Scientifically speaking, Jacksonville is every bit as susceptible to hurricanes as Miami and any other coastal city from New Orleans around the horn and up to New Jersey. We've just been extraordinarily lucky for a long, long time. If anything, that part of the story makes it all the more unbelievable to me.
That, and Shitake 1.) Apparently does not even have a company website and 2.) is not even spelled correctly.
More detail regarding Mullen's proposal:
QuoteWhile Khan started the process, another party came forth to say he would be in the mix.
Patrick Mullen, CEO of Shitaki Enterprises, told board members Friday his plan would invest $1.4 billion over five years and create a boatyard and marina for mega-yachts along with an international festival marketplace. He said his company would pay for the site clean-up, but would seek available city and state incentives for the development.
A PowerPoint presentation submitted to DIA CEO Aundra Wallace states the company has contracts to service more than 40 luxury yachts and has bids to service Coast Guard vessels.
The 18-page document introduces the concept, with four pages of background replicating information from a Wikipedia page on the topic of "luxury yacht."
Mullen said Monday the information in that presentation was preliminary and put together in three days in time to get it to the authority by Friday's meeting. The actual plan that will be submitted will be a complete and original business plan.
"A lot more detail is on the way," he said.
The pages dedicated to the festival marketplace talk about a "hospitality venue of shops, restaurants, nightclubs and inns operated by merchants from around the world, with different sections representing different regions of the world."
It notes an Asian-Pacific, Caribbean and European area, all of which would annually bring 25,000 visitors while creating 1,500 permanent and 2,100 indirect jobs.
The boatyard and marine, the presentation states, would bring 250 permanent full-time and 400 indirect jobs.
In interviews with media during the board meeting, Mullen said he and others have been working on this for more than a year and definitely would be submitting the proposal.
He said the reaction since making the presentation has mostly been positive and that he wants what's best for the city.
"We just want to get to work and put people to work," he said. "I don't want people to make this about Shad Khan against myself."
Mullen was the registered agent for Shitaki Marine & Yacht Refinishing LLC formed in January 2010. The LLC has been inactive since September 2011 because of administrative dissolution for failure to file an annual report.
Full article: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=545030
Quote from: JBTripper on March 09, 2015, 11:42:38 AM
Scientifically speaking, Jacksonville is every bit as susceptible to hurricanes as Miami and any other coastal city from New Orleans around the horn and up to New Jersey. We've just been extraordinarily lucky for a long, long time. If anything, that part of the story makes it all the more unbelievable to me.
If you are going to speak "scientifically," it is best to get your science right. Jacksonville is certainly susceptible to hurricanes. However, it is not "as susceptible" as Miami. You are implying that every coastal city has the same susceptibility to hurricane impacts, which is not true. Jacksonville is actually one of the least likely places along the eastern seaboard for landfall. Historically, the highest preponderance of storm tracks passing over Jacksonville have come from hurricanes landing elsewhere in FL (even across from the Gulf). Jacksonville is about the furthest west piece of the east coast. The northbound Gulf stream is further offshore here than the rest of Florida (or Outer Banks, which is highly
susceptible to hurricane impacts) and there is a significant change in direction in the stream just south of Florida. Simplistically, that is why hurricanes move west toward Florida and are often turned northeast fairly abruptly. That is not to say Florida won't be direct hit by a Cat 5 this year. It very well may be, but the probability is low relative to other areas along the coast.
All that is to say, the insurance argument is certainly legitimate. Whether it is true or not, science will not say.
QuoteIt notes an Asian-Pacific, Caribbean and European area, all of which would annually bring 25,000 visitors while creating 1,500 permanent and 2,100 indirect jobs.
The boatyard and marine, the presentation states, would bring 250 permanent full-time and 400 indirect jobs.
So 1750 direct jobs, AND they're talking about growing their company to 5000 in 5 years?
JAXPORT wants a billion dollars to bring about 2000 less jobs over 20 more years. Maybe we should just give this guy our share ($200M+) and call it a day.
Yeah, not a lot of information at all out there about Patrick Mullen, CEO of Shitaki Enterprises. We certainly don't need another grandiose idea without legitimate financing behind it. Although I do like his idea of trying to recreate EPCOT but I feel like where just looking at another landing type debacle if we went that route.
Quote from: PeeJayEss on March 09, 2015, 01:44:20 PM
QuoteIt notes an Asian-Pacific, Caribbean and European area, all of which would annually bring 25,000 visitors while creating 1,500 permanent and 2,100 indirect jobs.
The boatyard and marine, the presentation states, would bring 250 permanent full-time and 400 indirect jobs.
So 1750 direct jobs, AND they're talking about growing their company to 5000 in 5 years?
JAXPORT wants a billion dollars to bring about 2000 less jobs over 20 more years. Maybe we should just give this guy our share ($200M+) and call it a day.
JaxPort has stated that dredging to 47 feet will result in 34,508 new jobs by 2035....or roughly 8,627 over a 5 year period. I believe the 5,000 number includes both direct and indirect jobs for all uses (yacht complex, hotel, market, etc.). If you break down the components of Khan's and the other past proposals, they all would probably employ a similar amount at "full" buildout. If Trilegacy would have landed Fidelity, that would have been a couple thousand jobs on its own, for their project. When the shipyards were in operation, it had as many as 20k jobs (WWII years) but generally employed 1-2k for most of its years.
Quote from: JBTripper on March 09, 2015, 11:42:38 AM
He says that, but I'm not sure that's how insurance works. Scientifically speaking, Jacksonville is every bit as susceptible to hurricanes as Miami and any other coastal city from New Orleans around the horn and up to New Jersey. We've just been extraordinarily lucky for a long, long time. If anything, that part of the story makes it all the more unbelievable to me.
Actually, no: Jacksonville is quite a bit less likely to get hit by a Hurrican than Miami (and most of the east coast, btw).
http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/climo/images/return_hurr.jpg (http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/climo/images/return_hurr.jpg)
http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/climo/images/return_mjrhurr.jpg (http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/climo/images/return_mjrhurr.jpg)
http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/climo/images/strikes_us.jpg (http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/climo/images/strikes_us.jpg)
All of the above contained here: http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/climo/ (http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/climo/)
Perhaps this is the true reason why the COJ is such a fan of demolitions - mother nature won't do it for them ;-)
Quote from: jaxlore on March 09, 2015, 01:52:18 PM
Yeah, not a lot of information at all out there about Patrick Mullen, CEO of Shitaki Enterprises. We certainly don't need another grandiose idea without legitimate financing behind it. Although I do like his idea of trying to recreate EPCOT but I feel like where just looking at another landing type debacle if we went that route.
I thought the same thing, jaxlore, when I googled Patrick Mullen (https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=patrick%20mullen%2c%20ceo%20of%20shiitake%20enterprises)
The only thing that hits are the articles written in the Daily Record and a couple Linkd In profiles that don't exactly scream "$1.4B Investor".
Quite honestly, it seems kind of shady and a whole lot fabricated. I also love this part:
Quote from: thelakelander on March 09, 2015, 11:48:42 AM
The 18-page document introduces the concept, with four pages of background replicating information from a Wikipedia page on the topic of "luxury yacht."
Full article: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=545030
What's the name of the company that currently employs 85 in South Florida?
Vandelay Industries. They sell latex and are looking for sales people.
lol
Shitaki can't pay their multi fees but they got Billion to invest...http://www.news4jax.com/news/second-shipyards-bidder-has-osha-violations/31706094
LOL at our reporting. Flex-N-Gate has a ton of OSHA violations too. Google the company name and OSHA and a few pages of articles show up.
QuoteAs a newcomer to NFL ownership, Khan is seeing that having a visible NFL role can raise public interest in his business affairs. Since 2011, the Occupational Safety and Health Administration has filed more than 20 of notices of violation against his auto-parts empire, Illinois-based Flex-N-Gate. An operator of 23 plants around the country, Flex-N-Gate since 2010 has been fined at least $125,000 for 23 violations at his most- fined plant, in Urbana, Ill.
In an interview last week, Khan said the company's plants have excellent working conditions and that he treats all safety complaints seriously.
"I've been in business since 1978 and regrettably these things come up," said Khan, a native of Pakistan, who immigrated to the U.S. with next to nothing when he was 16.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887323372504578467420078331176
^Khan's response is basically the same sentiment expressed by the Mullen's attorney. Honestly, it would be cool to see the investigative reporting dig more into what the previous Shitaki actually did, Mullen's history, what he's proposing now and how it's different from what got the OSHA fines at Green Cove, and what type of company is he currently operating in South Florida. Heck, this is the first time I've heard purchase Shipyard property at a
reduced rate. This is the compelling stuff. Not exposure of a $600 fine from a previous business, while not treating the competing bid's business ventures with the same level of scrutiny. Khan came out with some great renderings last month and even though a lot of the stuff shown conceptually probably won't happen, I understand many view him as the city's savior since he's a billionaire. The RFP will probably be tilted in his favor anyway but we should at least things play out to see what's best for the city with this particular piece of property. Who knows, maybe there's another party out there that will end up submitting something quite different from both of these.
Is there access to Hogan's Creek in this plan?
I don't believe a site plan has been released yet.
Today was deadline for proposals. Per Stephanie Brown, WOKV, three proposals were submitted. She is assuming two are Khas and the Shitake one. She is staying to find out name of third proposal.
According to Andrew Thurlow at JBJ (https://twitter.com/jbjandrew/status/588406634306805760), the third proposal is from a company called Inhim
Catherine Varnum is stating Inhim too is third proposal. Only thing I find for InHim is a company in Cebu???
They have a website http://inhimproperties.com/ (http://inhimproperties.com/). Half of it is still in Lorem Ipsum.
If you want info, just call (555) 555-5555 or email info@yourdomain.com.
Actually I see there is an InHim Inc based in Fernandina Beach, so assuming this is the company. Principle in the company is. Wayne B Williams
Action News just reported that In Him is a company based on New Kings Rd in Jax. Hmmmm. I say hand it to Khan. Obviously there is no serious interest in the development other than Khan
Hahahahaha....https://twitter.com/VarnumANjax/status/588466953083297792
Proposal for a new Super Luxury Mobile Home Park.
^^^'Merica baby!! Hell yeah!!! ;D
Here's the so call "In Him" proposal...https://twitter.com/ACNewsman/status/588479352423194624
Wow. As I said above we now know theremis really no interest in this except for Khan. To me it had minimal value as is.
I can't really tell if InHim is a Christian group or a homosexual group...
I'll show myself out 8)
Quote from: Rynjny on April 15, 2015, 07:44:30 PM
Here's the so call "In Him" proposal...https://twitter.com/ACNewsman/status/588479352423194624
LMAO! I can't stop laughing..... ;D
http://m.actionnewsjax.com/news/news/local/new-proposal-submitted-shipyards-bringing-total-3/nktxN/
More at 11.....lol...
With the deadline now up, it's kind of sad to see so little interest in the property.
Quote from: KenFSU on April 16, 2015, 09:42:25 AM
With the deadline now up, it's kind of sad to see so little interest in the property.
What are you talking about? There are 3 viable projects. The third is the real deal and I think is gonna give Khan a run for his money.
(heavy sarcasm in this response)
Very sad. Well, hopefully we can at least work out reasonable deals with the winner.
Quote from: KenFSU on April 16, 2015, 09:42:25 AM
With the deadline now up, it's kind of sad to see so little interest in the property.
Well, it looks like Jacksonville's only hope for downtown revitalization is for Shad Khan to develop the whole thing (Shipyards, Laura St. Trio, anything else he wants). We should just give him all the available land and offer a generous cut of any tax revenues that are derived from his projects. At least, we'll have something pretty to look at and it's not as if the COJ will ever solve their budgetary issues to fund the projects themselves.
Quote from: KenFSU on April 16, 2015, 09:42:25 AM
With the deadline now up, it's kind of sad to see so little interest in the property.
You were not going to get much feedback from a 30 day deadline when two of the other proposals have had months to iron out something. It's a waste of resources when you can invest your development money in much better markets across the globe.
Loved that he used MapQuest. Fuck a google maps.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 16, 2015, 10:14:48 AM
Quote from: KenFSU on April 16, 2015, 09:42:25 AM
With the deadline now up, it's kind of sad to see so little interest in the property.
You were not going to get much feedback from a 30 day deadline when two of the other proposals have had months to iron out something. It's a waste of resources when you can invest your development money in much better markets across the globe.
I heard InHim had been preparing their proposal for 2015 years.
^ Heard the same and their attention to detail shows! R for Restroom.
I watched News4Jax's story on InHim's proposal. Most. Jacksonville. Thing. Ever.
Sounds like Jax:
QuoteEric Smith, an attorney representing Mullen and Shitaki, submitted a letter to Wallace saying the original submission stands. The letter went on the say the city failed to properly provide necessary information on environmental remediation for the site, making it "impossible for my client to submit a detailed proposal."
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=545264
Quote from: Downtown Osprey on April 16, 2015, 10:46:08 AM
^ Heard the same and their attention to detail shows! R for Restroom.
Where did you find his sketches?
Quote from: FSBA on April 16, 2015, 10:50:02 AM
I watched News4Jax's story on InHim's proposal. Most. Jacksonville. Thing. Ever.
friggin hilarious comment.
https://twitter.com/ACNewsman/status/588479352423194624 <<<<
Quote from: FSBA on April 16, 2015, 10:50:02 AM
I watched News4Jax's story on InHim's proposal. Most. Jacksonville. Thing. Ever.
Duuuuuvaaaaal
Quote from: thelakelander on April 16, 2015, 10:14:48 AM
Quote from: KenFSU on April 16, 2015, 09:42:25 AM
With the deadline now up, it's kind of sad to see so little interest in the property.
You were not going to get much feedback from a 30 day deadline when two of the other proposals have had months to iron out something. It's a waste of resources when you can invest your development money in much better markets across the globe.
Totally. It was a formality so the city could act like they were actually trying to find real bidders. Too typical, and sad.
Quote from: Bridges on April 15, 2015, 03:05:57 PM
They have a website http://inhimproperties.com/ (http://inhimproperties.com/). Half of it is still in Lorem Ipsum.
But it confirms he's the #1 real estate developer in the Philippines
Quote from: Tacachale on April 16, 2015, 11:30:49 AM
It was a formality so the city could act like they were actually trying to find real bidders. Too typical, and sad.
Even if that statement is 100% true (I feel it's in the high 90's myself), does that change the fact that there is generally ZERO interest on that property from other developers?
Short of selling out with a complete marketing campaign from the city nation-wide to garner interest prior to setting out a 'legitimate' RFP, I don't believe it would have mattered if there was a 30 day window or a 30 year window. The property has been sitting vacant for 2 decades with a handful of pie-in-the-sky development proposals that were relying on a housing market that this nation has never seen before.
Khan's interest in the property is based on a more realistic and sustainable idea - enhancing his other major investment in the city.
Here is how it all broke on our local FOX affiliate last night... The first BREAKING NEWS!
http://www.fox30jax.com/news/news/local/new-proposal-submitted-shipyards-bringing-total-3/nktxN/
Not sure how the reporters kept from laughing out loud but this is good... Meet the man of the "THIRD PROPOSAL!" ;D
This is Must see material... and veeeery Jacksonville... ;D ::) ;D ::)
http://www.fox30jax.com/videos/news/third-shipyards-proposal/vDPdny/
Quote from: Downtown Osprey on April 16, 2015, 10:46:08 AM
^ Heard the same and their attention to detail shows! R for Restroom.
That was great! I saw that on the news last night when he was showing his plan on a napkin.
Quote from: Downtown Osprey on April 16, 2015, 10:46:08 AM
^ Heard the same and their attention to detail shows! R for Restroom.
Where did you find his sketches?
[/quote]
He was showing off his plans on a napkin last night on the news.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 16, 2015, 10:14:48 AM
Quote from: KenFSU on April 16, 2015, 09:42:25 AM
With the deadline now up, it's kind of sad to see so little interest in the property.
You were not going to get much feedback from a 30 day deadline when two of the other proposals have had months to iron out something. It's a waste of resources when you can invest your development money in much better markets across the globe.
Strongly disagree that the 30 day window had anything to do with the lack of interest. Everybody on this message board has known for almost a year that the RFP was coming sooner than later. It wasn't a surprise. Any reasonably informed or interested developer would be tracking it as well. Worst case scenario, they found out two months ago when Khan unveiled his plans and the announcement came that an RFP was imminent. Speaking from my experience working in marketing in the field of civil engineering though, you do your homework and due diligence months before the project is officially advertised.
DVI even publicly stated at last month's meeting that they were open to extending the solicitation period if there was a groundswell of interest in the property. Potential developers have had ample time to at least put together enough of a plan to request an extension of the deadline.
If the Shipyards is the hot property that some suggest, you'd think the city could do better than a printout from Wikipedia and a sketch of Noah's Arc on a napkin.
Fully remediated, maybe the results are different, but right here right now, I simply don't think the 30-day window mattered.
So, I'm pretty sure we'll be down to two proposals very quickly. Some amazing quotes from the Business Journal with the third, "developer":
"I've been looking with Realtors for a piece of property big enough for the plans. And the Shipyards came up and the Lord told me to write a proposal because he wanted the site to be the land where he could show his glory. I asked the Lord how much? I said, '$3 million' and the Lord said, 'No, $13.5 million.' The Lord said his children would pay for it and that I didn't have to worry about it. I would act as his service manager. Any money that comes out after everybody is paid off will all go to the city. I estimate between $58 billion to $200 billon-plus a year will go to the city. And, of course, I would be there working, not around the clock, but I'd be there."
http://m.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2015/04/16/will-noahs-ark-be-docking-at-the-shipyards.html?ana=twt&r=full
Quote from: Steve on April 16, 2015, 04:12:49 PM
So, I'm pretty sure we'll be down to two proposals very quickly. Some amazing quotes from the Business Journal with the third, "developer":
"I've been looking with Realtors for a piece of property big enough for the plans. And the Shipyards came up and the Lord told me to write a proposal because he wanted the site to be the land where he could show his glory. I asked the Lord how much? I said, '$3 million' and the Lord said, 'No, $13.5 million.' The Lord said his children would pay for it and that I didn't have to worry about it. I would act as his service manager. Any money that comes out after everybody is paid off will all go to the city. I estimate between $58 billion to $200 billon-plus a year will go to the city. And, of course, I would be there working, not around the clock, but I'd be there."
http://m.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2015/04/16/will-noahs-ark-be-docking-at-the-shipyards.html?ana=twt&r=full
How can anybody take this guy seriously...why even give him camera time??
^ The randomness of including volleyball courts is what really cracks me up.
Quote from: KenFSU on April 16, 2015, 04:39:55 PM
^ The randomness of including volleyball courts is what really cracks me up.
I've been heavily involved in the sport of volleyball for most of my adult life, and this saddens me greatly! :-[ :-[ :-[
Quote from: Rynjny on April 16, 2015, 04:15:55 PM
How can anybody take this guy seriously...why even give him camera time??
Can you imagine if this ARK proposal got out into the national media?? That'll be just what we need...Hell, I like amusement parks, I should've devised a proposal to locate one at the shipyards; Go through the proper municipal channels, open a kickstarter and a gofundme, voila! ready to take on Khan.
Quote from: Steve on April 16, 2015, 04:12:49 PM
So, I'm pretty sure we'll be down to two proposals very quickly. Some amazing quotes from the Business Journal with the third, "developer":
"I've been looking with Realtors for a piece of property big enough for the plans. And the Shipyards came up and the Lord told me to write a proposal because he wanted the site to be the land where he could show his glory. I asked the Lord how much? I said, '$3 million' and the Lord said, 'No, $13.5 million.' The Lord said his children would pay for it and that I didn't have to worry about it. I would act as his service manager. Any money that comes out after everybody is paid off will all go to the city. I estimate between $58 billion to $200 billon-plus a year will go to the city. And, of course, I would be there working, not around the clock, but I'd be there."
http://m.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2015/04/16/will-noahs-ark-be-docking-at-the-shipyards.html?ana=twt&r=full
Hilarious
Quote"God talks to me through a small voice in my head," said Grenda, who identifies himself as a non-denominational Christian. "I have seen angels. Angels are men, they're not women and they don't have wings. They walk around like a person just like you or me. Everybody I have prayed for in the last 35 years has been healed through God. I'm just doing his work."
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2015/04/16/will-noahs-ark-be-docking-at-the-shipyards.html
;D ;D ;D ;D
I wonder where the Killashee needle tower proposal is??
Is it too late to put in my claim for the property? I never received my 40 acres and a mule! The shipyards are a little over 40 acres. I'd be willing to take the property off the city's hands. You guys can keep the mule.
^ come on Lake....with sea-level rise, having Noah's Ark so close to my house could be invaluable!
I would love to see the Ark at the top of the needle. I vote for that.
Quote from: Rynjny on April 16, 2015, 04:15:55 PM
Quote from: Steve on April 16, 2015, 04:12:49 PM
So, I'm pretty sure we'll be down to two proposals very quickly. Some amazing quotes from the Business Journal with the third, "developer":
"I've been looking with Realtors for a piece of property big enough for the plans. And the Shipyards came up and the Lord told me to write a proposal because he wanted the site to be the land where he could show his glory. I asked the Lord how much? I said, '$3 million' and the Lord said, 'No, $13.5 million.' The Lord said his children would pay for it and that I didn't have to worry about it. I would act as his service manager. Any money that comes out after everybody is paid off will all go to the city. I estimate between $58 billion to $200 billon-plus a year will go to the city. And, of course, I would be there working, not around the clock, but I'd be there."
http://m.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2015/04/16/will-noahs-ark-be-docking-at-the-shipyards.html?ana=twt&r=full
How can anybody take this guy seriously...why even give him camera time??
How could anyone not look for the straitjacket?
QuoteStrongly disagree that the 30 day window had anything to do with the lack of interest. Everybody on this message board has known for almost a year that the RFP was coming sooner than later.
Just a point of clarification, as this is my field of work.
Developers aren't browsing MetroJacksonville trying to find large, contaminated pieces of land to invest money in. The entire process over the last few years was designed for Khan to act as a master developer on the land. To say anything differently just doesn't reflect reality.
Now, about that ark...
Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 16, 2015, 12:40:23 PM
Here is how it all broke on our local FOX affiliate last night... The first BREAKING NEWS!
http://www.fox30jax.com/news/news/local/new-proposal-submitted-shipyards-bringing-total-3/nktxN/
Not sure how the reporters kept from laughing out loud but this is good... Meet the man of the "THIRD PROPOSAL!" ;D
This is Must see material... and veeeery Jacksonville... ;D ::) ;D ::)
http://www.fox30jax.com/videos/news/third-shipyards-proposal/vDPdny/
Oh. My. God.
And it's not even April Fools Day.
Quote from: stephendare on April 17, 2015, 09:36:41 AM
Quote from: fieldafm on April 17, 2015, 09:26:30 AM
QuoteStrongly disagree that the 30 day window had anything to do with the lack of interest. Everybody on this message board has known for almost a year that the RFP was coming sooner than later.
Just a point of clarification, as this is my field of work.
Developers aren't browsing MetroJacksonville trying to find large, contaminated pieces of land to invest money in. The entire process over the last few years was designed for Khan to act as a master developer on the land. To say anything differently just doesn't reflect reality.
Now, about that ark...
No one in their right mind would look for a contaminated piece of land, Field. Why are you being so rude lately? Did you wake up to find your britches several sizes too small or something? I know thats always annoying.
I'm not being rude at all. I'm relaying my experience working on deals like this.
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 16, 2015, 10:10:24 PM
^ come on Lake....with sea-level rise, having Noah's Ark so close to my house could be invaluable!
I think that you're on to something. Technically, building an ark is 'progressivism' since everything in the US outside of MST is gonna flood in 100 years, or whatever the hell...
Quote from: fieldafm on April 17, 2015, 09:26:30 AM
QuoteStrongly disagree that the 30 day window had anything to do with the lack of interest. Everybody on this message board has known for almost a year that the RFP was coming sooner than later.
Just a point of clarification, as this is my field of work.
Developers aren't browsing MetroJacksonville trying to find large, contaminated pieces of land to invest money in. The entire process over the last few years was designed for Khan to act as a master developer on the land. To say anything differently just doesn't reflect reality.
Now, about that ark...
I don't think he was implying developers would be out there scouring local message boards for potential projects, just that any developer on the lookout for large projects would have been as aware of the property as people here. It's no secret that it was there for the taking.
Khan mentioned his initial interest in the property almost two years ago, and if I'm recalling correctly, Mark Lamping made comments several times since then that they'd get involved only if no one else stepped up to the plate. Two years sounds like plenty of notice to me...
Do we really think more time to ask for proposals would've generated any other offers? Look at what we got over the last two years. It's hard to believe there was any serious interest out there.
There's been plenty of time if there was someone else out there with enough interest. If anything turned people off, I'd put that on the history of failure with the property rather than this claim that the whole process has been set up to favor Shad Khan.
I understand what Field was saying. You're simply not going to attract much private investment interest in a contaminated piece of dirt in a small market like Jax......especially considering how we've basically left the property in limbo for a good decade. Contaminated, in a dead DT environment, no flexibility (all or nothing approach with land assembly), with no real plan or vision for the property's future or the land surrounding it, etc. If you have a few million to light on fire, the Shipyards property is a great way to achieve that goal. After all, there's a reason Khan wants the property given to him with the city taking all the risks. If you what more interest, there are other proven methods of generating that interest that provides you with options to not wait for the sugar daddy (TriLegacy, LandMar, Khan) to figure out what to do with all +40 acres. However, putting the wheels in motion begins with the public sector. That process has never taken place, so it's not hard to understand the overall lack of interest.
^Yep, pretty much.
Let me ask a hypothetical question for those disagreeing with Field...if you were trying to get The Shipyards in the hands of private developers and were at a conference with the largest developers in Florida and the Southeast, would you aggressively market the property to them?
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on April 16, 2015, 11:00:05 PM
I would love to see the Ark at the top of the needle. I vote for that.
How's this, Maximus? I tried to mix together the best of the proposals that we have seen, so far.
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b597/TimmyB44/MSD-BERKEYT/shipyards_zpssco64nyp.png) (http://s1293.photobucket.com/user/TimmyB44/media/MSD-BERKEYT/shipyards_zpssco64nyp.png.html)
That looks like the perfect project^
Quote from: TimmyB on April 16, 2015, 07:27:23 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on April 16, 2015, 04:39:55 PM
^ The randomness of including volleyball courts is what really cracks me up.
I've been heavily involved in the sport of volleyball for most of my adult life, and this saddens me greatly! :-[ :-[ :-[
I'm unclear which part saddens you greatly: the volleyball courts being included, KenFSU's comment, or the fact that you have been "heavily involved in the sport of volleyball for most of my adult life."
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on April 16, 2015, 12:37:29 PM
Short of selling out with a complete marketing campaign from the city nation-wide to garner interest prior to setting out a 'legitimate' RFP, I don't believe it would have mattered if there was a 30 day window or a 30 year window. The property has been sitting vacant for 2 decades with a handful of pie-in-the-sky development proposals that were relying on a housing market that this nation has never seen before.
Khan's interest in the property is based on a more realistic and sustainable idea - enhancing his other major investment in the city.
Khan is essentially adding a practice football facility and attempting to bring in other developers to add additional uses that the market can handle. Most likely, when reality hits, half of the stuff shown on those renderings will be "value engineered" out of existence. Master plans rarely turn out how originally sold during the conceptual promotional stage.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 17, 2015, 10:29:22 AM
If you what more interest, there are other proven methods of generating that interest that provides you with options to not wait for the sugar daddy (TriLegacy, LandMar, Khan) to figure out what to do with all +40 acres. However, putting the wheels in motion begins with the public sector. That process has never taken place, so it's not hard to understand the overall lack of interest.
I agree completely. Maybe I heard what I wanted to hear from him, but I interpreted Khan's initial comments as a way to get those wheels in motion, to generate interest that might push the city to move. The problem was - as usual - nothing happened.
As it stands now, the entire property needs to be cleaned up. I don't see the city making that kind of investment without knowing what will happen to the property. That seems like it would rule out carving it up and developing it piece by piece.
That leaves the property to be developed by someone needed to take the lead on the whole thing. It's not ideal, but it feels like all we have available to us. If it can happen - and so far Khan seems to be a mad of his word - I don't want to squander that opportunity.
Quote from: CityLife on April 17, 2015, 10:39:59 AM
Let me ask a hypothetical question for those disagreeing with Field...if you were trying to get The Shipyards in the hands of private developers and were at a conference with the largest developers in Florida and the Southeast, would you aggressively market the property to them?
Definitely. I'd also like to know why it wasn't done before, or if it was, why nothing happened. Anyone know?
Quote from: thelakelander on April 17, 2015, 10:51:41 AM
Most likely, when reality hits, half of the stuff shown on those renderings will be "value engineered" out of existence. Master plans rarely turn out how originally sold during the conceptual promotional stage.
I worry you're right, but I really really hope you end up being proven wrong. :)
Arkglass!!! ROTF! ;D :D ;D
Btw, what's this all about? I guess we're really down to one proposal.
QuoteKhan in February unveiled his vision, a mixed-use site that could incorporate more than 650 residential units, some commercial space, an upscale hotel, multilevel practice facilities, marine and parks.
Khan submitted a term sheet soon after, leading to the DIA meeting March 6 to talk about the next steps for selecting a developer and issuing a request for proposals.
During that meeting, Patrick Mullen, CEO of Shitaki Enterprises, told the board of his idea to invest $1.4 billion over five years to develop a boatyard and marina for mega yachts, along with a festival marketplace.
He, too, is one of the three who responded by Wednesday. His pitch, though, remains relatively unchanged from a PowerPoint his company submitted to DIA CEO Aundra Wallace about the same time. Four pages of background on luxury yachts replicated information on a Wikipedia page about the topic.
Eric Smith, an attorney representing Mullen and Shitaki, submitted a letter to Wallace saying the original submission stands. The letter went on the say the city failed to properly provide necessary information on environmental remediation for the site, making it "impossible for my client to submit a detailed proposal."
The third group to respond, In Him, is new to the scene. Calls and emails placed to Stephen Grenda on Wednesday and Thursday morning went unreturned.
Full article: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=545264
Quote from: hiddentrack on April 17, 2015, 10:59:04 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 17, 2015, 10:29:22 AM
If you what more interest, there are other proven methods of generating that interest that provides you with options to not wait for the sugar daddy (TriLegacy, LandMar, Khan) to figure out what to do with all +40 acres. However, putting the wheels in motion begins with the public sector. That process has never taken place, so it's not hard to understand the overall lack of interest.
I agree completely. Maybe I heard what I wanted to hear from him, but I interpreted Khan's initial comments as a way to get those wheels in motion, to generate interest that might push the city to move. The problem was - as usual - nothing happened.
As it stands now, the entire property needs to be cleaned up. I don't see the city making that kind of investment without knowing what will happen to the property. That seems like it would rule out carving it up and developing it piece by piece.
That leaves the property to be developed by someone needed to take the lead on the whole thing. It's not ideal, but it feels like all we have available to us. If it can happen - and so far Khan seems to be a mad of his word - I don't want to squander that opportunity.
When I look at the Khan proposal, he's basically doing what the city should have over the last decade. He's not spending his cash developing the property. He's parceling it out and marketing it for others to come in and invest in projects of their own. For example, if he wants a shopping center, he's not developing it. An entity like Sleiman would. If it works, he makes money and increases the value of this existing investment in Jax. If it doesn't, then the city has assumed all the risks anyway. Thus, don't get too upset if the "placeholder" renderings of things like that hotel and filled in areas of the river.....never materialize.
QuoteQuote from: thelakelander on April 17, 2015, 10:51:41 AM
Most likely, when reality hits, half of the stuff shown on those renderings will be "value engineered" out of existence. Master plans rarely turn out how originally sold during the conceptual promotional stage.
I worry you're right, but I really really hope you end up being proven wrong. :)
I've done the master site planning for several large developments over the last decade. Most, never turned out as originally conceived. If I'm wrong on this one, I'll be the first to buy you a beer from a restaurant inside the shopping center under that practice football field. ;)
Quote from: PeeJayEss on April 17, 2015, 10:45:03 AM
That looks like the perfect project^
Quote from: TimmyB on April 16, 2015, 07:27:23 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on April 16, 2015, 04:39:55 PM
^ The randomness of including volleyball courts is what really cracks me up.
I've been heavily involved in the sport of volleyball for most of my adult life, and this saddens me greatly! :-[ :-[ :-[
I'm unclear which part saddens you greatly: the volleyball courts being included, KenFSU's comment, or the fact that you have been "heavily involved in the sport of volleyball for most of my adult life."
Funny! That made me actually laugh out loud at work! To be clear, the fact that they were included. I have nothing to be saddened about being involved in the sport; it has taken me many places and brought me much happiness!
Quote from: hiddentrack on April 17, 2015, 10:59:04 AM
Quote from: CityLife on April 17, 2015, 10:39:59 AM
Let me ask a hypothetical question for those disagreeing with Field...if you were trying to get The Shipyards in the hands of private developers and were at a conference with the largest developers in Florida and the Southeast, would you aggressively market the property to them?
Definitely. I'd also like to know why it wasn't done before, or if it was, why nothing happened. Anyone know?
Good questions. Would this board agree that being at a conference with the largest developers in Florida and the Southeast last August, and not actively marketing the project, means we really have to way to know what the interest would have been?
Quote from: thelakelander on April 17, 2015, 11:10:52 AM
Quote from: hiddentrack on April 17, 2015, 10:59:04 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 17, 2015, 10:29:22 AM
If you what more interest, there are other proven methods of generating that interest that provides you with options to not wait for the sugar daddy (TriLegacy, LandMar, Khan) to figure out what to do with all +40 acres. However, putting the wheels in motion begins with the public sector. That process has never taken place, so it's not hard to understand the overall lack of interest.
I agree completely. Maybe I heard what I wanted to hear from him, but I interpreted Khan's initial comments as a way to get those wheels in motion, to generate interest that might push the city to move. The problem was - as usual - nothing happened.
As it stands now, the entire property needs to be cleaned up. I don't see the city making that kind of investment without knowing what will happen to the property. That seems like it would rule out carving it up and developing it piece by piece.
That leaves the property to be developed by someone needed to take the lead on the whole thing. It's not ideal, but it feels like all we have available to us. If it can happen - and so far Khan seems to be a mad of his word - I don't want to squander that opportunity.
When I look at the Khan proposal, he's basically doing what the city should have over the last decade. He's not spending his cash developing the property. He's parceling it out and marketing it for others to come in and invest in projects of their own. For example, if he wants a shopping center, he's not developing it. An entity like Sleiman would. If it works, he makes money and increases the value of this existing investment in Jax. If it doesn't, then the city has assumed all the risks anyway. Thus, don't get too upset if the "placeholder" renderings of things like that hotel and filled in areas of the river.....never materialize.
My thoughts exactly. I have been asked a handful of times when speaking at various civic organizations about what the city should do with the Shipyards. I would say that the city needs to come up with a master plan, pay for the public amenities and then start parceling off the site to individual developers based on the goals of your site plan. That was always met with a 'no way this site gets broken up'.
Well, looks like Khan's plan is exactly the same idea... yet, instead of the public taking most of the risk and reaping most of the proceeds... the public takes most of the risk and doesn't get enough proceeds to cover the costs (which has already happened on that site several times).
Khan's conceptual plans are nice in the abstract. The attention to public river access, linking with the Hogans Creek Greenway, ensuring a walkable environment along Bay Street, etc are all very sound principles. If those things happen, this site will be a big plus for downtown and the city at large.
The end result (both physically and fiscally) 10 years from now will look a lot different then what the overwhelming majority of people that understand the project only from the 2 minute news spot they saw on tv believe it will be.
QuoteBtw, what's this all about?
Not saying the yacht guy's proposal is all that serious, but the comments aren't surprising given the short 30 day window and without being provided much info about the remediation required on the site nor the opportunity to do much in the way of due dilligence. Someone that has been working with City officials for at least a couple of years, would obviously have a much better understanding of the site's condition... then say some investment group from Dallas that perhaps did a quick site visit and has no access to any environmental site assessments done on the property previously.
It's no secret that Khan's attorneys have been bouncing things off COJ officials now for years. Khan may just provide a great product (I really hope he does. I love this city and want the best for it). I'm just trying to bring a more educated and nuanced view of what really goes on. Instead of making an honest effort to really establish the market on the property and get public input, COJ instead chose to tailor a process towards a favored party behind closed doors and are willing to take on financial risks that they don't really know whether or not is a good deal (and as proposed, will lose money on). Was that the best course of action? Time will tell. Over time, history doesn't produce an overall winning record on that strategy (more strikeouts then runs scored, however runs do get scored).
Sometimes, its perfectly prudent to take a step back to evaluate your parachute before jumping out of the plane.
Quote from: finehoe on April 17, 2015, 09:46:19 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 16, 2015, 12:40:23 PM
Here is how it all broke on our local FOX affiliate last night... The first BREAKING NEWS!
http://www.fox30jax.com/news/news/local/new-proposal-submitted-shipyards-bringing-total-3/nktxN/
Not sure how the reporters kept from laughing out loud but this is good... Meet the man of the "THIRD PROPOSAL!" ;D
This is Must see material... and veeeery Jacksonville... ;D ::) ;D ::)
http://www.fox30jax.com/videos/news/third-shipyards-proposal/vDPdny/
Oh. My. God.
And it's not even April Fools Day.
Rofl... that you are the only one to comment makes me think no one else has seen the second clip... I highly recommend it...
http://www.fox30jax.com/videos/news/third-shipyards-proposal/vDPdny/
Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 17, 2015, 12:28:36 PM
Quote from: finehoe on April 17, 2015, 09:46:19 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 16, 2015, 12:40:23 PM
Here is how it all broke on our local FOX affiliate last night... The first BREAKING NEWS!
http://www.fox30jax.com/news/news/local/new-proposal-submitted-shipyards-bringing-total-3/nktxN/
Not sure how the reporters kept from laughing out loud but this is good... Meet the man of the "THIRD PROPOSAL!" ;D
This is Must see material... and veeeery Jacksonville... ;D ::) ;D ::)
http://www.fox30jax.com/videos/news/third-shipyards-proposal/vDPdny/
Oh. My. God.
And it's not even April Fools Day.
Rofl... that you are the only one to comment makes me think no one else has seen the second clip... I highly recommend it...
http://www.fox30jax.com/videos/news/third-shipyards-proposal/vDPdny/
So Shad Khan's already been defeated by a guy with the "power of healing and miracles". Relevant information.
QuoteI always just assumed Khan would propose something that looked great for his pocketbook, of course nothing wrong with that. But the city would counter saying, Ok, but we need this, this and this and its's yours.
Ultimately, it will be up to City Council. The political reality of the situation probably means that there won't be much hand wringling of any signifigance.
I hope things work out for the best. I don't want to be taken as being against the idea of Khan dealing with the property. I'm just trying to provide a more realistic assessment of the process, based on my professional experience. The worst thing that could happen is for Jax to pin its downtown redevelopment dreams on the stuff in Khan's concept materializing into reality any time soon. Do that, and we're setting ourselves up for the big one-trick pony let down all over again.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 17, 2015, 12:59:33 PM
I hope things work out for the best. I don't want to be taken as being against the idea of Khan dealing with the property. I'm just trying to provide a more realistic assessment of the process, based on my professional experience. The worst thing that could happen is for Jax to pin its downtown redevelopment dreams on the stuff in Khan's concept materializing into reality any time soon. Do that, and we're setting ourselves up for the big one-trick pony let down all over again.
Except that Lamping is out and about talking to groups (this second hand from someone at such a meeting) explaining that an incremental approach to development will not work, and that Khan intends to bring it all out of the ground at once, and be completed 3 to 4 years after they begin. According to the story, other owner/developers have warned Khan that the long way will fail. All or nothing, and the faster the better. So either Lamping is lying, or we should dare to be a bit more optimistic.
Quote from: downtownbrown on April 17, 2015, 02:02:29 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 17, 2015, 12:59:33 PM
I hope things work out for the best. I don't want to be taken as being against the idea of Khan dealing with the property. I'm just trying to provide a more realistic assessment of the process, based on my professional experience. The worst thing that could happen is for Jax to pin its downtown redevelopment dreams on the stuff in Khan's concept materializing into reality any time soon. Do that, and we're setting ourselves up for the big one-trick pony let down all over again.
Except that Lamping is out and about talking to groups (this second hand from someone at such a meeting) explaining that an incremental approach to development will not work, and that Khan intends to bring it all out of the ground at once, and be completed 3 to 4 years after they begin. According to the story, other owner/developers have warned Khan that the long way will fail. All or nothing, and the faster the better. So either Lamping is lying, or we should dare to be a bit more optimistic.
I've been in the room where he's said the same thing. Personally, he is an impressive guy. Furthermore, he's been great for the Jaguars and the city at large. No one is calling anyone a liar (and I for one am not rooting against the project nor Khan's involvement), however you can take a look at other projects that Lamping was involved in for examples that a 3 yr window for full build out is highly ambitious and probably not likely. The Meadowlands master plan has taken around 10 years and is still not complete. Keep in mind, that project is in a primary market that is on a completely different level than Jax. Khan doesn't even own the property yet. I think you have to take those sales pitches with a grain of salt, because they are designed to get you excited.
(http://www.turnerconstruction.com/Files/ProjectImage?url=%2Fsites%2Fmarketingstories%2FMarketing%2520Story%2520Images%2Foriginal.be8d92a1-daaf-45af-8936-f042aedecc4b.jpg&width=707&height=470&crop=True&jpegQuality=95)
Keep in mind, that it's taken a little over two years just to get some sketches and an RFP issued here locally.
It feels like we're at that moment where the music's started, and we've got a few people milling around (Shipyards, Healthy Town, Barnett, Laura St Trio, Landing) but no one's out on the dance floor. Someone's gotta get out there and start dancing.
Each project, perfectly executed, won't do enough on its own. I don't care who's first to start or who's first to finish, but for there to be any momentum that benefits downtown as a whole, they all need to be out there.
So in that spirit... https://youtu.be/xy4FXhkm6Nw
Quote from: hiddentrack on April 17, 2015, 02:21:34 PM
So in that spirit...
https://www.youtube.com/v/xy4FXhkm6Nw?
Quote from: TimmyB on April 17, 2015, 10:42:25 AM
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on April 16, 2015, 11:00:05 PM
I would love to see the Ark at the top of the needle. I vote for that.
How's this, Maximus? I tried to mix together the best of the proposals that we have seen, so far.
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b597/TimmyB44/MSD-BERKEYT/shipyards_zpssco64nyp.png) (http://s1293.photobucket.com/user/TimmyB44/media/MSD-BERKEYT/shipyards_zpssco64nyp.png.html)
Thank you!! Visually it's even more magnificent than I had imagined. Now I think the entire One Spark Festival should take place in that Ark.
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on April 17, 2015, 03:10:32 PM
Quote from: TimmyB on April 17, 2015, 10:42:25 AM
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on April 16, 2015, 11:00:05 PM
I would love to see the Ark at the top of the needle. I vote for that.
How's this, Maximus? I tried to mix together the best of the proposals that we have seen, so far.
Thank you!! Visually it's even more magnificent than I had imagined. Now I think the entire One Spark Festival should take place in that Ark.
Would they re-title it, "One spARK"?
Quote from: TimmyB on April 17, 2015, 07:36:13 PM
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on April 17, 2015, 03:10:32 PM
Quote from: TimmyB on April 17, 2015, 10:42:25 AM
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on April 16, 2015, 11:00:05 PM
I would love to see the Ark at the top of the needle. I vote for that.
How's this, Maximus? I tried to mix together the best of the proposals that we have seen, so far.
Thank you!! Visually it's even more magnificent than I had imagined. Now I think the entire One Spark Festival should take place in that Ark.
Would they re-title it, "One spARK"?
Then there would only be one Creator.
^^^I see what you did. :)
Quote from: CityLife on April 17, 2015, 11:41:16 AM
Quote from: hiddentrack on April 17, 2015, 10:59:04 AM
Quote from: CityLife on April 17, 2015, 10:39:59 AM
Let me ask a hypothetical question for those disagreeing with Field...if you were trying to get The Shipyards in the hands of private developers and were at a conference with the largest developers in Florida and the Southeast, would you aggressively market the property to them?
Definitely. I'd also like to know why it wasn't done before, or if it was, why nothing happened. Anyone know?
Good questions. Would this board agree that being at a conference with the largest developers in Florida and the Southeast last August, and not actively marketing the project, means we really have to way to know what the interest would have been?
BINGO!
This needs to be immediately scrapped until after the elections.
Restore the Public Trust
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on April 17, 2015, 03:10:32 PM
Quote from: TimmyB on April 17, 2015, 10:42:25 AM
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on April 16, 2015, 11:00:05 PM
I would love to see the Ark at the top of the needle. I vote for that.
How's this, Maximus? I tried to mix together the best of the proposals that we have seen, so far.
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b597/TimmyB44/MSD-BERKEYT/shipyards_zpssco64nyp.png) (http://s1293.photobucket.com/user/TimmyB44/media/MSD-BERKEYT/shipyards_zpssco64nyp.png.html)
Thank you!! Visually it's even more magnificent than I had imagined. Now I think the entire One Spark Festival should take place in that Ark.
Damnit! Y'all just keeping missing the streetcar proposal... IMAGINE!
The streetcars would be hybrid vehicles that could run up and down the tower, to the ark, then cross the river as kayaks. :D
Quote from: Noone on April 18, 2015, 01:10:39 AM
Quote from: CityLife on April 17, 2015, 11:41:16 AM
Quote from: hiddentrack on April 17, 2015, 10:59:04 AM
Quote from: CityLife on April 17, 2015, 10:39:59 AM
Let me ask a hypothetical question for those disagreeing with Field...if you were trying to get The Shipyards in the hands of private developers and were at a conference with the largest developers in Florida and the Southeast, would you aggressively market the property to them?
Definitely. I'd also like to know why it wasn't done before, or if it was, why nothing happened. Anyone know?
Good questions. Would this board agree that being at a conference with the largest developers in Florida and the Southeast last August, and not actively marketing the project, means we really have to way to know what the interest would have been?
BINGO!
This needs to be immediately scrapped until after the elections.
Restore the Public Trust
We *do*have a way to know what the interest is. Any large developer in Florida or around the Southeast worthy of consideration already knows about the Shipyards property because they have folks in-house who look for these types of projects. Do you honestly think we have some sort of hidden jewel that could be developed if only the City made the right parties aware that Jax is (and has been) sitting on a hidden jewel lo these many years ? ? ? Seriously? Big developers have to
find projects; I'm guessing here but I'm sure they prefer to do so before the project is finalized if at all possible *and* while they still have time to work the politics and find out the "players," so to speak, then they have to bid on them, and win those bids. To me, it is unrealistic in the extreme to think this property hasn't been well-vetted and assessed, with local politics factored in.
Shad's our guy. Hopefully he has some entities who are ONLY interested if Shad is heading the process up, because they have faith in him. To me, that's our best bet. The sports complex could be a really nice spot for an entertainment district and I'm hoping Shad can make it happen. That seems to be the direction of multiple sports teams (e.g., the Braves & the Packers) and it makes a bunch of sense.
I'm sorry if this has already been discussed but Shad's model may be (in part) what Robert Kraft has done up in New England with Patriot Place:
http://www.boston-discovery-guide.com/patriot-place.html
QuotePatriot Place is far, far more than a mall next to a sports complex - it's what you might call "entertainment retailing," a shoppers' version of an amusement park plus an on-site hotel and even medical facilities.
Sure, you can buy a new sweater or pair of shoes . . . but you can also purchase many different varieties of entertainment here as well. In some ways, it's like other Boston shopping malls - but on steroids!
He'll have to find out what works for Big Duval in this urban, not suburban, setting but that can surely be done.
;) ....and the Jax Chamber chose to back Khan/Iguana Investments shipyards vision to move forward with. I hear the Ark plan was a very very close second..says First Baptist hehe ::)
Quote from: Charles Hunter on April 20, 2015, 06:44:15 AM
The streetcars would be hybrid vehicles that could run up and down the tower, to the ark, then cross the river as kayaks. :D
We need a Tower with top floor public venue- those tourist binocular thangs,you put some coins in the slot and Look Way Out There.
The tower high enough to grant binoc view of surrounding counties where most NE Florida newcomers will eventually land,neighborhoods traversed by electric "Golf" cart.
Quote from: Know Growth on April 24, 2015, 10:06:15 PM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on April 20, 2015, 06:44:15 AM
The streetcars would be hybrid vehicles that could run up and down the tower, to the ark, then cross the river as kayaks. :D
We need a Tower with top floor public venue- those tourist binocular thangs,you put some coins in the slot and Look Way Out There.
The tower high enough to grant binoc view of surrounding counties where most NE Florida newcomers will eventually land,neighborhoods traversed by electric "Golf" cart.
Maybe the streetcars should be Arks?
Shocker....Shad Khan's proposal won:
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2015-04-27/story/shad-khans-group-easily-posts-top-score-among-firms-seeking-redevelop
77 points for Khan, 18 for the Boat Repair Shop, and 4 for Jesus Land. I'd love to know what the 4 was.
Time for a public records request! I'd like to know where those four points came from as well!
Quote from: thelakelander on April 27, 2015, 07:28:05 PM
Time for a public records request! I'd like to know where those four points came from as well!
They were actually split-votes; the boat repair place was going to work on the ark, so they shared those points.
The 4 points was probably for submitting it in time.
I'm a lil' disappointed that we didn't get the religious proposal with the ark, so sad... :'( ;D
Stephanie Brown has a pic of the evaluation score sheets on her Twitter. One evaluator gave inHim 5 points, one gave him 7 and the other 0 points for an average of 4.
Quote from: edjax on April 27, 2015, 08:12:34 PM
Stephanie Brown has a pic of the evaluation score sheets on her Twitter. One evaluator gave inHim 5 points, one gave him 7 and the other 0 points for an average of 4.
The person who gave InHim 7 points should've recused themselves from the proceedings. Clearly they were either drunk or must be the President of the Jacksonville Volleyball Society.
Quote from: FSBA on April 27, 2015, 08:22:12 PM
Quote from: edjax on April 27, 2015, 08:12:34 PM
Stephanie Brown has a pic of the evaluation score sheets on her Twitter. One evaluator gave inHim 5 points, one gave him 7 and the other 0 points for an average of 4.
The person who gave InHim 7 points should've recused themselves from the proceedings. Clearly they were either drunk or must be the President of the Jacksonville Volleyball Society.
They could have felt so sorry for the guy that they thought they should award him something for his submission.
If the Khan Plan can actually deliver water the color depicted in Presentation,I'm in!
Next step will be to somehow figure out how to attract overnight boaters - the routine now is to avoid the public areas/"Down Town". This stuff adds up over the years.
Quote from: FSBA on April 27, 2015, 08:22:12 PM
The person who gave InHim 7 points should've recused themselves from the proceedings. Clearly they were either drunk or must be the President of the Jacksonville Volleyball Society.
Don Redman
Quote from: FSBA on April 27, 2015, 08:22:12 PM
Clearly they were either drunk or must be the President of the Jacksonville Volleyball Society.
:D :D :D :D :D
Quote from: carpnter on April 27, 2015, 08:28:19 PM
They could have felt so sorry for the guy that they thought they should award him something for his submission.
Can you imagine if they all did that and the guy ended up winning? Holy Cow, what a mess that would be.
Quote from: Know Growth on April 27, 2015, 09:16:05 PM
If the Khan Plan can actually deliver water the color depicted in Presentation,I'm in!
Next step will be to somehow figure out how to attract overnight boaters - the routine now is to avoid the public areas/"Down Town". This stuff adds up over the years.
I don't think that will be a problem. Just requires some security. Try staying at the Landing overnight now and you might be set adrift in the middle of the night. It has happened...
Berkman marina is reasonably secure. My boat was only broken into twice when it lived there. But the docks are awful and dangerous, so I say good riddance to them if Khan builds some swanky new ones.
Quote from: menace1069 on April 28, 2015, 08:04:21 AM
Quote from: carpnter on April 27, 2015, 08:28:19 PM
They could have felt so sorry for the guy that they thought they should award him something for his submission.
Can you imagine if they all did that and the guy ended up winning? Holy Cow, what a mess that would be.
You're misinterpreting this. He didnt get 4 winning votes. They scored all the submissions and InHim ended up with an average score of 4. I'm sure none of the evaluators came anywhere close to giving that proposal more points than the Yacht one, much less beating out Khan's plan.
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on April 28, 2015, 12:18:18 PM
Quote from: menace1069 on April 28, 2015, 08:04:21 AM
Quote from: carpnter on April 27, 2015, 08:28:19 PM
They could have felt so sorry for the guy that they thought they should award him something for his submission.
Can you imagine if they all did that and the guy ended up winning? Holy Cow, what a mess that would be.
You're misinterpreting this. He didnt get 4 winning votes. They scored all the submissions and InHim ended up with an average score of 4. I'm sure none of the evaluators came anywhere close to giving that proposal more points than the Yacht one, much less beating out Khan's plan.
Yea, I know..I'm being silly about it. Like in school when you would just write in someone for the class prez or Christmas tree a test...would have been funny if one of the voters was goofing around and gave him actual votes and he ended up winning.
Just a little tom foolery...That is all.
Council has given the OK for Mr. Wallace to begin negotiations with Iguana Investments for shipyards development. Let the games begin..
Relocating Metropolitan Park could be part of talks with Khan about Shipyards development.
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2015-04-30/story/relocating-metropoltian-park-could-be-part-talks-khan-about-shipyard
If I'm reading it correctly, the business journal quotes Aundra Wallace as stating the project will take 17 years to complete!! How in the world when Khan expresses he wants to see a total build out at simultaneously? I'm confused now. I would like to enjoy this thing before in my 40's
Quote from: Marle Brando on April 30, 2015, 02:30:08 PM
If I'm reading it correctly, the business journal quotes Aundra Wallace as stating the project will take 17 years to complete!! How in the world when Khan expresses he wants to see a total build out at simultaneously? I'm confused now. I would like to enjoy this thing before in my 40's
Looks like there's some conflicting info on this from the JBJ. The slug for their story (http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2015/04/30/shipyards-redevelopment-could-take-up-to-17-years.html) says "shipyards-redevelopment-could-take-up-to-17-years" but the headline now reads "Shipyards redevelopment could take up to 10 years". Looks like that headline was changed sometime after posting.
It's not completely unexpected that this would be a long-term project, but hopefully it ends up closer to 10 than 17. It'll all come down to demand.
Just because Khan is involved doesn't mean he's going to spend his cash on building a full development that the market clearly can't support. Where did he say he'd build out everything shown on that fluffed up rendering simultaneously? To be honest, we'd be lucky if it's fully completed in 20 years! No way DT Jax can support that much extra commercial space when half the place is a scene straight out of 28 Days Later.
Moving Metropolitan Park to a new location would allow Khan to have more waterfront for his development. It is very unlikely that a new location for Metropolitan Park would be on the waterfront since it is prime development property. Feels like the public is being shut out of waterfront space once again.
Quote from: Jumpinjack on April 30, 2015, 07:13:16 PM
Moving Metropolitan Park to a new location would allow Khan to have more waterfront for his development. It is very unlikely that a new location for Metropolitan Park would be on the waterfront since it is prime development property. Feels like the public is being shut out of waterfront space once again.
Oh, come on. Shut out ? ? ? The waterfront figures prominently is the conceptual design I saw. This is just the beginning of the process. Many, many people I'm sure will be on the look-out to ensure public access to the waterfront.
Quote from: Marle Brando on April 30, 2015, 02:30:08 PM
If I'm reading it correctly, the business journal quotes Aundra Wallace as stating the project will take 17 years to complete!! How in the world when Khan expresses he wants to see a total build out at simultaneously? I'm confused now. I would like to enjoy this thing before in my 40's
40's? HA! I'd like to see it before I ... well, I'd just like to see it. Period. ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: TimmyB on April 30, 2015, 08:51:20 PM
Quote from: Marle Brando on April 30, 2015, 02:30:08 PM
If I'm reading it correctly, the business journal quotes Aundra Wallace as stating the project will take 17 years to complete!! How in the world when Khan expresses he wants to see a total build out at simultaneously? I'm confused now. I would like to enjoy this thing before in my 40's
40's? HA! I'd like to see it before I ... well, I'd just like to see it. Period. ;D ;D ;D
really. Friggin kids.
Quote from: RattlerGator on April 30, 2015, 07:37:22 PM
Quote from: Jumpinjack on April 30, 2015, 07:13:16 PM
Moving Metropolitan Park to a new location would allow Khan to have more waterfront for his development. It is very unlikely that a new location for Metropolitan Park would be on the waterfront since it is prime development property. Feels like the public is being shut out of waterfront space once again.
Oh, come on. Shut out ? ? ? The waterfront figures prominently is the conceptual design I saw. This is just the beginning of the process. Many, many people I'm sure will be on the look-out to ensure public access to the waterfront.
Agree. Last year the Jazz Fest put up a main stage in front of Maxwell house, aimed at the Berkman. It was a great venue. But it sounds like to me that Harden is just agreeing to everything just so they can get some ink and lock it up.
QuoteMoving Metropolitan Park to a new location would allow Khan to have more waterfront for his development. It is very unlikely that a new location for Metropolitan Park would be on the waterfront since it is prime development property.
If Met Park is moved to a Peyton Pocket Park, Mayor Brown should be run out of Jax on a rail. Why would you take a tax payer funded facility and move it off the water, to give to a developer? So little public space remains on the river, this is on Mayor Brown's watch.
You have my permission to implode WJCT Channel 7 and move them elsewhere.
I believe the discussion was to move Met Park west (ie to where the Shipyards is now) with Khan taking over part of the Met Park property. The Shipyards may well be a better location for a waterfront park. But it would take a lot as I believe Met Park is still owned by the Park Service, not the city.
The much bigger issue is what the city's getting out of the whole deal. If it's just giving away our land to a billionaire, then paying him to do it and letting him off the hook for taxes, no thanks.
Quote from: mtraininjax on May 01, 2015, 09:44:49 AM
QuoteMoving Metropolitan Park to a new location would allow Khan to have more waterfront for his development. It is very unlikely that a new location for Metropolitan Park would be on the waterfront since it is prime development property.
If Met Park is moved to a Peyton Pocket Park, Mayor Brown should be run out of Jax on a rail.
It would be a legal nightmare to relocate Metropolitan Park. We've already seen it when Delaney proposed converting the park into a 17,000 seat amphitheater back in the late 1990s. It's important to remember that Met Park was federally funded, and in the past, the State of Florida and National Park Service have not looked kindly on city's attempting to convert federally funded public spaces into for-profit private developments. They get particularly agitated when proposed land swaps do not appear to be genuinely in kind.
Here's a memo outlining the problems that Bill Potter, then director of Parks & Rec, sent Delaney in 1998:
Quote"I attended a meeting called by the DDA converting Met Park and turning it over to a private vendor. . . I walked away with some significant concerns regarding the Metropolitan proposal... Metropolitan Park is our last green waterfront area in that quadrant of the City. It affords access to literally thousands of school children during school outings, as well as a backdrop and venue for various public functions, weddings etc. that are free or at little cost to the public. The conversion would virtually eliminate this public component of the current Metropolitan Park. . . Finally, and most importantly, the conversion of Met Park would be in conflict with our required agreements currently in place with granting agencies that have funded acquisition and development of major portions of Metropolitan Park. . . By converting the property, we would be reversing on our commitment. . . As an advocate for public lands, I am not comfortable with the current proposal for Met Park. It is my position in this job to be an advocate for the public."
QuoteIt affords access to literally thousands of school children during school outings
(http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/31914460.jpg)
Wow, people are really running with this Met Park thing. Melody Bishop seemed to suggest something to consider. Melody Bishop, not Khan. They said sure, we can look at that possibility. We now have it being moved on Browns watch and children being hurt. Just wow.
Quote from: edjax on May 01, 2015, 11:36:01 AM
Wow, people are really running with this Met Park thing. Melody Bishop seemed to suggest something to consider. Melody Bishop, not Khan. They said sure, we can look at that possibility. We now have it being moved on Browns watch and children being hurt. Just wow.
Agree. Like I said, Harden is just agreeing to everything in order to move the ball.
Quote from: downtownbrown on May 01, 2015, 09:36:53 AM
Quote from: TimmyB on April 30, 2015, 08:51:20 PM
Quote from: Marle Brando on April 30, 2015, 02:30:08 PM
If I'm reading it correctly, the business journal quotes Aundra Wallace as stating the project will take 17 years to complete!! How in the world when Khan expresses he wants to see a total build out at simultaneously? I'm confused now. I would like to enjoy this thing before in my 40's
40's? HA! I'd like to see it before I ... well, I'd just like to see it. Period. ;D ;D ;D
really. Friggin kids.
Can't help when I was born. But I'll be more than happy to push you around the shipyards access ramps when your hoveround battery dies ;)
Quote from: Marle Brando on May 01, 2015, 12:56:04 PM
Quote from: downtownbrown on May 01, 2015, 09:36:53 AM
Quote from: TimmyB on April 30, 2015, 08:51:20 PM
Quote from: Marle Brando on April 30, 2015, 02:30:08 PM
If I'm reading it correctly, the business journal quotes Aundra Wallace as stating the project will take 17 years to complete!! How in the world when Khan expresses he wants to see a total build out at simultaneously? I'm confused now. I would like to enjoy this thing before in my 40's
40's? HA! I'd like to see it before I ... well, I'd just like to see it. Period. ;D ;D ;D
really. Friggin kids.
Can't help when I was born. But I'll be more than happy to push you around the shipyards access ramps when your hoveround battery dies ;)
That's mighty kind of you. As long as you meant you'd push us AND we'd stay on the dry part of the shipyards!
Quote from: TimmyB on May 01, 2015, 02:19:03 PM
Quote from: Marle Brando on May 01, 2015, 12:56:04 PM
Quote from: downtownbrown on May 01, 2015, 09:36:53 AM
Quote from: TimmyB on April 30, 2015, 08:51:20 PM
Quote from: Marle Brando on April 30, 2015, 02:30:08 PM
If I'm reading it correctly, the business journal quotes Aundra Wallace as stating the project will take 17 years to complete!! How in the world when Khan expresses he wants to see a total build out at simultaneously? I'm confused now. I would like to enjoy this thing before in my 40's
40's? HA! I'd like to see it before I ... well, I'd just like to see it. Period. ;D ;D ;D
really. Friggin kids.
Can't help when I was born. But I'll be more than happy to push you around the shipyards access ramps when your hoveround battery dies ;)
That's mighty kind of you. As long as you meant you'd push us AND we'd stay on the dry part of the shipyards!
You might be able to get around in those jet packs that everyone will have by then.
Just thought I'd post a couple parallel developments taking shape right now in the Bay Area. Conceptually very much the same as the Jacksonville Shipyards. I was privileged to look into the underwriting of one of these projects in a larger move by a consortium of investors looking to cash out equity in a bundled public offering, so in doing so, I have learned quite a bit on some of the ins and outs from a high level. I see infinite possibilities for crafting a solid financial structure for the Jacksonville Shipyards (one in which the City of Jax isn't hogtied), but I don't quite see a market.
http://brooklynbasin.com/
Under construction now, backed by Chinese money (don't expect the same for Jax).
http://thesfshipyard.com/vision/
Hunters Point and Candlestick Point, being redeveloped by Lennar/Five Point Communities (a sub of Lennar)...first phase is well underway with ~200 homes already sold/occupied and the next 300+ homes under construction, Google in talks for much of the office space, and Macerich gearing up to start construction on its retail center once Candlestick Park is cleaned up (about 80% demo'd to date)
Lennar is the master developer, but funds come from a variety of sources, including a variety of hedge funds on the equity side (and there may or may not be a NewCo formed whereby aside from some carve-outs, there will be public equity involved on a go-forward), as well as some traditional financing, EB-5 (about $500+M), CFD (Mello Roos) and TIF.
http://www.pier70sf.com/#future
Forest City received voter ballot approval last year for a height increase and for the ability to proceed with plans at this former Shipyard site. It is closer into the city than Hunters Point, but it is about a year away from actually "starting"
I think it's quite easy to pick up on commonalities between all three developments, as well as how their respective developers are going about the process. Other similar developments for consideration here would be the Giants' Mission Rock development (waterfront...in fact they just upped the ante and got a very progressive supervisor's approval today by agreeing to include 40% affordable housing), as well as Forest City's 5M development. All are large-scale, mixed-use developments, at least 4 of the 5 will include a process very similar to what will take place at the Jacksonville Shipyards (master developer, subs, vertical and horizontal components with various profit participation schemes, use of non-traditional financing and money sources, etc etc).
Interesting developments to watch and learn from as they all get going (and hopefully it isn't the case that the Jacksonville Shipyards continues to languish).
The good news is that according to recent comments from both Aundra Wallace and Mark Lamping, progress is moving ahead relatively smoothly. The bad news is that Jax doesn't have anywhere near the urban vision, creativity, or funding that SF has.
Quote from: simms3 on June 16, 2015, 08:34:06 PM
http://brooklynbasin.com/
http://thesfshipyard.com/vision/
http://www.pier70sf.com/#future
Cool! Thanks for posting.
I heard someone say a water park :o
Someone needs to take that person outside and beat them with a book.
Because everyone goes to Manhattan for a trip to the water park!
Quote from: downtownbrown on June 17, 2015, 11:08:23 AM
The good news is that according to recent comments from both Aundra Wallace and Mark Lamping, progress is moving ahead relatively smoothly. The bad news is that Jax doesn't have anywhere near the urban vision, creativity, or funding that SF has.
SF has its own obstacles. In fact, I'd argue the obstacle of NIMBYism in SF is every bit as much of an obstacle as "lack of vision" that Jax has. Part of the reason that SF is the most expensive place in the entire country is because of NIMBYism, which is at its most extreme in this city, by a mile. Funding can be found if the project is worthy.
SF being a waterfront port city with a very industrial past, it is a great example for Jax to learn from in how to develop its various public waterfronts. Jax city leaders love to travel and "learn" from other cities. Perhaps they should skip out on the next Kansas City trip and go to San Francisco to meet with the mayor, the Planning Commission, and groups like Lennar Urban, Forest City, and the Giants Organization to figure out how they are financing these projects and what their development process is, what the city is requiring and why, how they are marketing, etc etc.
^I'll be in SF for a few days in 2 weeks. Anything I should try to check out while I'm there?
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on June 17, 2015, 11:42:55 AM
I heard someone say a water park :o
Someone needs to take that person outside and beat them with a book.
Because everyone goes to Manhattan for a trip to the water park!
Ha ha! I read that someone suggested that at the Landing meeting last night. That's right up there with the dude who proposed constructing the world's largest replica of Noah's Arc at the Shipyards.
^ and the paper jumped on it as the headline to the article....genius!
Quote from: CCMjax on June 17, 2015, 01:13:56 PM
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on June 17, 2015, 11:42:55 AM
I heard someone say a water park :o
Someone needs to take that person outside and beat them with a book.
Because everyone goes to Manhattan for a trip to the water park!
Ha ha! I read that someone suggested that at the Landing meeting last night. That's right up there with the dude who proposed constructing the world's largest replica of Noah's Arc at the Shipyards.
Quote from: tufsu1 on June 17, 2015, 10:13:52 PM
^ and the paper jumped on it as the headline to the article....genius!
Ya,I was at the meeting and I couldn't stop myself from laughing at that one. To be honest I thought the meeting was very weird, so many old people from the suburbs that wanted to take it back to the 80's. At 22 I was the youngest person there by far and while some of the ideas were legitimately great, others gave me serious heartburn. Someone at my table wanted it to be like Downtown Disney or City Walk at Universal! He also was very obviously afraid of the "problem people" downtown and suggested we somehow magically move them somewhere else. Crazy. I tried but I think the millennial perspective was pretty overlooked.
You did better than me. I popped in briefly. However, once I saw it was going to be a charrette (one of what seems like 1,000 for this site since I've been in town), I left that blue sweatbox. At this point, I'm more interested to see what the firms hired, officially come up with, moreso than me and every Tom, Dick, and Harry in town, tossing out our wildest dreams on tracing paper.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 18, 2015, 11:57:59 AM
...every Tom, Dick, and Harry in town, tossing out our wildest dreams on tracing paper.
IF they were forced to use tracing paper instead of MSPaint, then I bet we'd at least get some of their wildest feasible dreams. ;)
Quote from: stephendare on June 18, 2015, 12:48:26 PM
Quote from: UNFurbanist on June 18, 2015, 11:53:06 AM
Quote from: CCMjax on June 17, 2015, 01:13:56 PM
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on June 17, 2015, 11:42:55 AM
I heard someone say a water park :o
Someone needs to take that person outside and beat them with a book.
Because everyone goes to Manhattan for a trip to the water park!
Ha ha! I read that someone suggested that at the Landing meeting last night. That's right up there with the dude who proposed constructing the world's largest replica of Noah's Arc at the Shipyards.
Quote from: tufsu1 on June 17, 2015, 10:13:52 PM
^ and the paper jumped on it as the headline to the article....genius!
Ya,I was at the meeting and I couldn't stop myself from laughing at that one. To be honest I thought the meeting was very weird, so many old people from the suburbs that wanted to take it back to the 80's. At 22 I was the youngest person there by far and while some of the ideas were legitimately great, others gave me serious heartburn. Someone at my table wanted it to be like Downtown Disney or City Walk at Universal! He also was very obviously afraid of the "problem people" downtown and suggested we somehow magically move them somewhere else. Crazy. I tried but I think the millennial perspective was pretty overlooked.
Welcome to one of the central problems in dealing with redevelopment. Most millenials would like something outdoorsish with good digital connections and amenities, comfortable places to work/hangout, cafes and places for interaction. They aren't terrified of the gays, blacks, poors, olds, foreigners, etc.
The gays and the olds are the problem with DT for these people? So ridiculous. ;D Always baiting people.
I really wasn't meaning to "bait" anyone. I was just saying that the demographic in the room seemed to me to really just favor one particular argument. If anything that is the fault of young people being apathetic. But, at my table specifically two older gentlemen really took over the conversation and pushed their ideas on us while not letting anyone else speak much. That eventually reflected itself in the end discussion. Nothing very visionary or that exciting for my age group. Again, some ideas were cool and I could totally agree with, others however I just think really missed the mark and there was no counter vision.
Quote from: UNFurbanist on June 18, 2015, 01:31:27 PM
I really wasn't meaning to "bait" anyone. I was just saying that the demographic in the room seemed to me to really just favor one particular argument. If anything that is the fault of young people being apathetic. But, at my table specifically two older gentlemen really took over the conversation and pushed their ideas on us while not letting anyone else speak much. That eventually reflected itself in the end discussion. Nothing very visionary or that exciting for my age group. Again, some ideas were cool and I could totally agree with, others however I just think really missed the mark and there was no counter vision.
What were some of the cool ideas that were mentioned?
Well most people agreed on opening it to Laura st. which I think is good. Another idea was basically moving the current stage onto a barge (hope they can learn form the south bank barge) and making a grassy amphitheater in the middle. Grocery store/ daily farmers market was popular, the need for mixed use and apartments was pretty agreed upon. Lots of people wanted to remove the main st. bridge ramp for more space to the east. One person advocated for stores to be local retailers and entrepreneur offices. Expanding the riverwalk and making that central with a more botanical garden feel I thought sounded nice. The general idea of bars and restaurant space was important. Other than all that I was happy to hear that everyone thought it should be "iconic" even if that meant vastly different things to different people.
I think it's because that is what has been fed to the public for the last several years. The notion that the Landing has "its back on downtown" was always some architect's wild hair.
I mean I kinda get it. In a way it seams uninviting from Laura st. it can feel like you're coming in the back door. Do I think it's everything and wildly important? No. But I think that good design from all angles is important so having an open promenade or something through the center might be a nice addition. I still think UNF's student union is a cool example they could look at.
Opening the courtyard to Laura Street makes a lot of sense. Nevertheless, UNFurbanist's review is exactly why I left. All of those "good ideas" have been mentioned for years now. In fact, all of them can be accommodated in Sleiman's Landing plan that many here hated:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3582898016_8NwGwvk-M.jpg)
The market (or heavy public subsidies) will ultimately determine the proper mix of realistic uses. Seems the main issue is how to fit them on the site in a layout/design that's walkable, yet still accommodating to autocentric Jax.
Quote from: UNFurbanist on June 18, 2015, 01:31:27 PM
I really wasn't meaning to "bait" anyone. I was just saying that the demographic in the room seemed to me to really just favor one particular argument. If anything that is the fault of young people being apathetic. But, at my table specifically two older gentlemen really took over the conversation and pushed their ideas on us while not letting anyone else speak much. That eventually reflected itself in the end discussion. Nothing very visionary or that exciting for my age group. Again, some ideas were cool and I could totally agree with, others however I just think really missed the mark and there was no counter vision.
Agree with your comment on the real issue seems to have been the younger crowd too apathetic to show up it appears.
Where was this announced?
Quote from: stephendare on June 18, 2015, 01:57:06 PM
I always wonder about this trope. Why would Laura Street be 'improved' by 'opening' it to the river? Does this help Liberty, Hogan, Pearl or any of the other streets that are already 'open'?
I think it's very important that they open it up to Laura Street. Like UNFurbanist said, it is pretty uninviting right now. I think Laura Street is a nice link between Hemming Plaza, the most historically significant block of buildings in Jacksonville, and the river although the river is cut off right now by the ugly structure of the Landing. The most important thing in my opinion is that it has more green space than currently. Downtown does not have much of any nice riverfront greenspace.
I like the idea of taking out the ramp to Main Street and having most of the building structure on that side of Laura Street including an 8 to 15 story residential tower recessed from the first 2 floors of storefront/restaurant/offices, and on the other side of Laura Street and towards the river have more open green space with maybe a much smaller building footprint (2 or 3 storefronts or restaurants) away from the river along the road. The idea that you create much more open space that pedestrians would want to go to close to the river. Maybe an amphitheater in one corner closest to the river.
Quote from: stephendare on June 18, 2015, 03:12:04 PM
Lake, why does 'opening' the courtyard make sense? Any more sense than iconic architecture or art? What would it be open to, or for? Air flow?
I've been a steadfast critic of the Landing breezeway proposal.
Quote from: ben america on June 18, 2015, 03:11:24 PM
Where was this announced?
I saw it on the Daily Record last week and it was announced in the T-U too. There are how many Landing threads on this site,? perhaps it should have been included on here and some of the young engaging hipsters on here could have been more involved.
Quote from: stephendare on June 18, 2015, 01:57:06 PM
I always wonder about this trope. Why would Laura Street be 'improved' by 'opening' it to the river? Does this help Liberty, Hogan, Pearl or any of the other streets that are already 'open'?
I agree. I just think financially at this point, although it could be nice, it is not one of the most pressing problems for the success of the Landing.
Quote from: stephendare on June 18, 2015, 03:12:04 PMLake, why does 'opening' the courtyard make sense? Any more sense than iconic architecture or art? What would it be open to, or for? Air flow
Better visibility for retail and dining, which helps generate additional foot traffic and activity that can spill over into the downtown streets surrounding the Landing property.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 18, 2015, 03:04:38 PM
Opening the courtyard to Laura Street makes a lot of sense. Nevertheless, UNFurbanist's review is exactly why I left. All of those "good ideas" have been mentioned for years now. In fact, all of them can be accommodated in Sleiman's Landing plan that many here hated:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3582898016_8NwGwvk-M.jpg)
The market (or heavy public subsidies) will ultimately determine the proper mix of realistic uses. Seems the main issue is how to fit them on the site in a layout/design that's walkable, yet still accommodating to autocentric Jax.
I think most people didn't like his proposal because it was so vastly different than what's there now and people just couldn't picture it on that site. His plan wasn't very "iconic" but would function well I think and I like it more every time I see, if there were just a few tweaks, maybe something a little more aesthetically substantial right where Laura Street meets the park. Maybe it was the bland brick façade used in the rendering, I don't know. I think the word used before was "uninspiring."
Quote from: stephendare on June 18, 2015, 01:02:20 PM
it comes up in every discussion. how to keep the homosexuals from having sex in public (ever wonder why there are no public bathrooms in hemming park?)
how to keep the creep old guys from playing chess at hemming park (because they are 'bums'...you know: retired)
unfurbanists experience at his table is nothing new.
I've never seen you at one of these meetings FF, did I miss you?
And just because this happens to be one of your issues doesn't mean that you are being 'baited'
Quote from: For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A on March 25, 2014, 06:56:01 PM
Quote from: stephendare on March 25, 2014, 11:54:12 AM
what could possibly go wrong? A distant rural facility way out in the florida swamp somewhere, serving the forgotten misplaced and unwanted?
Jacksonville is a haven for the homeless. I talk to folks all the time since I have lived in downtown. It is warm and has a reputation for a good homeless crowd in downtown. People are released from jail and I usually have at least 2 or 3 people ask me for money on my walk.
I am all for helping the needy but good luck revitalizing downtown when there is a homeless problem. It is not a problem for me but I know plenty of people that it is a problem for. I would not want my wife walking around alone. Although, interestingly, there are very few crimes in the area or most of the crimes are between the vagrant population.
I think the sheriff is right though and I am all about helping the poor while also improving downtown. Put a shelter out by the Cecil Commerce and I think it will help Jacksonville.
Let me know. I am taking the Florida Bar in late July (so I am pretty swamped) but I would love to come after that. All I am saying is the average person hanging out at the St. Johns Town Center is not going to answer "the olds and gays" when talking about why they don't go DT or to the Landing. It is all about creating a cool atmosphere or vibe around here.
Quote from: stephendare on June 18, 2015, 03:18:11 PMand what about shade, or protection from the rain? Like why does 'opening' Laura Street mean 'a street that dead ends in the river'?
IMO, opening the courtyard up to the street doesn't mean you can't have shade or a roof. You're simply exposing the activities and setting them up in a manner where they can spill over to areas outside of the Landing. See 4th Street Live in Louisville as similar example.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/719192738_vg42H-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/719187576_syXLE-L.jpg)
Or Baltimore's Inner Harbor as one without a roof:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Baltimore-2014/i-vM2s66H/0/L/P1720542-L.jpg)
Quote from: For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A on June 18, 2015, 03:22:45 PM
Quote from: stephendare on June 18, 2015, 01:57:06 PM
I always wonder about this trope. Why would Laura Street be 'improved' by 'opening' it to the river? Does this help Liberty, Hogan, Pearl or any of the other streets that are already 'open'?
I agree. I just think financially at this point, although it could be nice, it is not one of the most pressing problems for the success of the Landing.
The actual layout is a huge problem to operate and maintain financially. You have a pretty dead mall with no anchor space that you have to maintain and air condition. If that's not bad enough, you have a large food court common space with a riverfront view you can't lease. For that thing to work, at a minimum, you've got the retrofit the building to where you can lease your best spaces for more cash, while also reducing the amount of common floor area you have to maintain and air condition. That's just the layout. Dealing with dedicated parking to lure certain types of higher paying tenants is another hurdle to jump.
Btw, I just realized this is a Shipyards thread. This whole Landing discussion is probably better off being in one of our existing Landing threads.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 18, 2015, 03:37:14 PM
Quote from: For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A on June 18, 2015, 03:22:45 PM
Quote from: stephendare on June 18, 2015, 01:57:06 PM
I always wonder about this trope. Why would Laura Street be 'improved' by 'opening' it to the river? Does this help Liberty, Hogan, Pearl or any of the other streets that are already 'open'?
I agree. I just think financially at this point, although it could be nice, it is not one of the most pressing problems for the success of the Landing.
The actual layout is a huge problem to operate and maintain financially. You have a pretty dead mall with no anchor space you have to maintain and air condition and you have a large food court common space with a riverfront view you can't lease. For that thing to work, at a minimum, you've got the retrofit the building to where you can lease your best spaces for more cash, while also reducing the amount of common floor area you have to maintain and air condition. That's just the layout. Dealing with dedicated parking to lure certain types of higher paying tenants is another hurdle to jump.
Btw, I just realized this is a Shipyards thread. This whole Landing discussion is probably better off being in one of our existing Landing threads.
Yeah. We have enough Landing threads ;)
But I completely agree with everything you just said. My problem with all of the plans are the pricetag right now. The place is not ideal, and has not been remodeled since 1988 but I think there are ways to make the place more successful without $12 million from the city at a time we can't even save four of our most historic building with the Laura St. Trio and Barnett. I am a fan of the Landing taking on a market feel similar to Pike Place Market in Seattle. There is no actual vision for the Landing right now, just a hodgepodge of stores, clubs, and restaurants. You did a great article on historic Jax markets previously but it will be creating a unique Jax vibe that revitalizes downtown.
Quote from: stephendare on June 18, 2015, 03:34:13 PM
Quote from: For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A on June 18, 2015, 03:27:08 PM
Quote from: stephendare on June 18, 2015, 01:02:20 PM
it comes up in every discussion. how to keep the homosexuals from having sex in public (ever wonder why there are no public bathrooms in hemming park?)
how to keep the creep old guys from playing chess at hemming park (because they are 'bums'...you know: retired)
unfurbanists experience at his table is nothing new.
I've never seen you at one of these meetings FF, did I miss you?
And just because this happens to be one of your issues doesn't mean that you are being 'baited'
Quote from: For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A on March 25, 2014, 06:56:01 PM
Quote from: stephendare on March 25, 2014, 11:54:12 AM
what could possibly go wrong? A distant rural facility way out in the florida swamp somewhere, serving the forgotten misplaced and unwanted?
Jacksonville is a haven for the homeless. I talk to folks all the time since I have lived in downtown. It is warm and has a reputation for a good homeless crowd in downtown. People are released from jail and I usually have at least 2 or 3 people ask me for money on my walk.
I am all for helping the needy but good luck revitalizing downtown when there is a homeless problem. It is not a problem for me but I know plenty of people that it is a problem for. I would not want my wife walking around alone. Although, interestingly, there are very few crimes in the area or most of the crimes are between the vagrant population.
I think the sheriff is right though and I am all about helping the poor while also improving downtown. Put a shelter out by the Cecil Commerce and I think it will help Jacksonville.
Let me know. I am taking the Florida Bar in late July (so I am pretty swamped) but I would love to come after that. All I am saying is the average person hanging out at the St. Johns Town Center is not going to answer "the olds and gays" when talking about why they don't go DT or to the Landing. It is all about creating a cool atmosphere or vibe around here.
Good luck on the bar, first. Thats quite enough to keep anyone busy.
but I think you must have posted without actually reading the sequence of comments. The people who show up at these charettes to weigh in with their opinion often have these prejudices about public spaces. And the belief they we have to seek 'solutions' to them are prejudices that they do not necessarily share with millenials.
There are always prejudices to overcome but the people showing up to the meetings spouting hateful rhetoric are not representative of the people you will probably be building a base demographic frequenting downtown anyway. Then again, I don't really know because I have never been to a meeting so I can't talk too much.
Thanks for the encouragement! Working hard and wasting time every once in awhile posting on here.
Quote from: UNFurbanist on June 18, 2015, 01:31:27 PM
I really wasn't meaning to "bait" anyone. I was just saying that the demographic in the room seemed to me to really just favor one particular argument. If anything that is the fault of young people being apathetic. But, at my table specifically two older gentlemen really took over the conversation and pushed their ideas on us while not letting anyone else speak much. That eventually reflected itself in the end discussion. Nothing very visionary or that exciting for my age group. Again, some ideas were cool and I could totally agree with, others however I just think really missed the mark and there was no counter vision.
That would drive me up a wall. The non-stakeholders with more than a little say and the actual [potential] stakeholders either apathetic or oblivious to their potential role in shaping downtown, and not having a saw.
The older I personally get, the pickier I get with any sort of interactions with "older" people (>55 years old). There are certainly plenty of cool older people, but I find more and more that those generations annoy me at best, perturb me on average, and offend me at worst. To hear them all gathered around a round table discussing design/planning for the rebirth of a new sunbelt downtown that will ultimately need to cater to those <35 today in order to be successful is just a mind melt. If it were up to me, I'd to hell with age discrimination and ban them from certain conversations/"charettes". Lol
Quote from: simms3 on June 18, 2015, 04:17:58 PM
Quote from: UNFurbanist on June 18, 2015, 01:31:27 PM
I really wasn't meaning to "bait" anyone. I was just saying that the demographic in the room seemed to me to really just favor one particular argument. If anything that is the fault of young people being apathetic. But, at my table specifically two older gentlemen really took over the conversation and pushed their ideas on us while not letting anyone else speak much. That eventually reflected itself in the end discussion. Nothing very visionary or that exciting for my age group. Again, some ideas were cool and I could totally agree with, others however I just think really missed the mark and there was no counter vision.
That would drive me up a wall. The non-stakeholders with more than a little say and the actual [potential] stakeholders either apathetic or oblivious to their potential role in shaping downtown, and not having a saw.
The older I personally get, the pickier I get with any sort of interactions with "older" people (>55 years old). There are certainly plenty of cool older people, but I find more and more that those generations annoy me at best, perturb me on average, and offend me at worst. To hear them all gathered around a round table discussing design/planning for the rebirth of a new sunbelt downtown that will ultimately need to cater to those <35 today in order to be successful is just a mind melt. If it were up to me, I'd to hell with age discrimination and ban them from certain conversations/"charettes". Lol
I agree with you on the mind melt part. I was thinking the same thing about who this will ultimately have to cater to. I think the design team gets that and ultimately I don't think they are going to do anything stupid so I'm not too worried. They just have to do this to check some transparency boxes and maybe have a few "ahh ha" moments. Plus, like I said some of the ideas were fine so I'm sure they'll just focus on that.
Thinking on it more though, I don't really think it's apathy from younger people as much as not getting the word out in a way we normally get info. That's really hard because basically if we don't follow your organization on social media or these message boards we don't find out because most realistically don't read the T-U or daily record. Its tough and really is a hard nut to crack getting young people from the area informed and involved.
What is the likelihood of all these major projects at least starting in the next 2 years?
-Clean up of the shipyards
-Laura Street Trio
-Barnett Building
-Landing redesign
-Healthy Town
I'm afraid that if only one of them happens at a time it may not create enough momentum or push to get downtown over that hump.
You want an honest answer? Zero! Barnett is in foreclosure....
Quote from: thelakelander on June 18, 2015, 09:28:52 PM
You want an honest answer? Zero! Barnett is in foreclosure....
Ah yes, ok minus the barnett?
Quote from: thelakelander on June 18, 2015, 09:28:52 PM
You want an honest answer? Zero! Barnett is in foreclosure....
Well, the quickness of the foreclosure proceedings will determine this as well. Hopefully Khan's team seeks ownership of the building and both sides can agree to that in full payment of debt. However, if they can't agree on that, it could be awhile.
IMO:
-Clean up of the shipyards - 20%
-Laura Street Trio - 20%
-Barnett Building - 20%
-Landing redesign - 0%
-Healthy Town - 50%
20% x 20% x 20% x 0% x 50% = 0%
Removing the Landing as well... = .4%, or slim to none, just for those four things.
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on June 18, 2015, 11:26:58 PM
IMO:
-Clean up of the shipyards - 20%
-Laura Street Trio - 20%
-Barnett Building - 20%
-Landing redesign - 0%
-Healthy Town - 50%
20% x 20% x 20% x 0% x 50% = 0%
Removing the Landing as well... = .4%, or slim to none, just for those four things.
hmm .4% . . . . . . so you're saying there's a chance??? Sorry, Dumb and Dumber moment and I couldn't resist.
Shipyards clean up: 100%
Healthy Town: 100%
Everything else: Meh.
Quote from: CCMjax on June 19, 2015, 08:14:09 AM
hmm .4% . . . . . . so you're saying there's a chance??? Sorry, Dumb and Dumber moment and I couldn't resist.
And I think I'm being optimistic. :o
Quote from: UNFurbanist on June 18, 2015, 01:31:27 PM
I really wasn't meaning to "bait" anyone. I was just saying that the demographic in the room seemed to me to really just favor one particular argument. If anything that is the fault of young people being apathetic. But, at my table specifically two older gentlemen really took over the conversation and pushed their ideas on us while not letting anyone else speak much. That eventually reflected itself in the end discussion. Nothing very visionary or that exciting for my age group. Again, some ideas were cool and I could totally agree with, others however I just think really missed the mark and there was no counter vision.
You should have raised your hand and gave them your vision, ideas, etc. Jax needs fresh, young ideas rather than Spanish moss off the oak trees, and "the south will rise again," type of ideas. (respectfully of course...please don't brand me because of my color)....or my age (I'm 58, but think like I'm 28...I guess I'm a dime a dozen)
So the new rumor is that Lamping is now out there saying that Khan is "still willing" to do the Shipyards, but there seems to be a lot more of "Meh..." in the statement. Apparently Khan isn't getting what he wants from the city.
Anyone know anything that could substantiate that?
^If that's true, I'd reckon that he was really banking on the soft deal Brown was offering all along. If so, it says a lot about what we'd be expected to hand over.
Same deal with Sleiman's Landing proposal. That's going to look a lot different now that he won't be getting quite so many millions for such a bland project.
Quote from: downtownbrown on July 16, 2015, 09:52:59 AM
So the new rumor is that Lamping is now out there saying that Khan is "still willing" to do the Shipyards, but there seems to be a lot more of "Meh..." in the statement. Apparently Khan isn't getting what he wants from the city.
Anyone know anything that could substantiate that?
Tell Khan and the NFL to stuff it! Hey Khan give us a winning team this season and then the Tax payers will talk?
Quote from: downtownbrown on July 16, 2015, 09:52:59 AM
So the new rumor is that Lamping is now out there saying that Khan is "still willing" to do the Shipyards, but there seems to be a lot more of "Meh..." in the statement. Apparently Khan isn't getting what he wants from the city.
Anyone know anything that could substantiate that?
Based on an interview with Lamping last month (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,24564.msg416015.html#msg416015), my first guess would be that things seem to be moving at a slow pace.
I haven't noticed anything new about the environmental study since last month. The only real news since then was the $17.5 million for environmental remediation in Curry's preliminary budget (http://www.wokv.com/news/news/local/prelim-jax-budget-outline-includes-cops-infrastruc/nmzcR/). No mention if that's enough to cover all the work.
The way Khan's proposal reads, the city could easily be on the hook for $100 million worth of things to pay for. Environmental clean up is just one of several things those responsibility for good management of public tax dollars need to carefully mull over.
Curry, not the DIA, owes Jacksonville a status report. He needs to unveil his real list of priorities.
Quote from: downtownbrown on July 16, 2015, 10:48:34 AM
Curry, not the DIA, owes Jacksonville a status report. He needs to unveil his real list of priorities.
Pretty sure he's working on that. The budget's due on Monday.
He already leaked, via Mousa, that "Liberty Street" is a priority. Problem is, by "Liberty Street" he means Coastline Drive between Newman and Market in order to protect the Hyatt. I don't think Liberty Street itself is anywhere on anyone's radar.
Liberty Street is where the current hole is. Sounds like they want to get it (that particular hole) fixed.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 16, 2015, 11:12:26 AM
Liberty Street is where the current hole is. Sounds like they want to get it (that particular hole) fixed.
They'll have to fix both holes. And they'll have to sign off on the safety of the entire bridge. Won't happen.
Sounds like they want to fix them, true. But they mean something different.
QuoteCurry, not the DIA, owes Jacksonville a status report. He needs to unveil his real list of priorities.
Its called a budget, its coming out soon, keep your pants on. Those items funded are a priority as opposed to video jumbo-trons. Its ironic at a time when Alvin could have been helping small business with loans, he was shaking hands with Kahn over million dollar jumbo-trons, instead of shaking hands with business people who could have been starting new businesses with help from the city. SMH!
I don't have a real problem with the super giant scoreboards. I am a Jags ticket holder (4 pack). But that money also could have been used to clean up The Shipyards. That also would have helped Khan immensely.
Where are the Active recreational opportunities to engage our St. Johns River our American Heritage River a FEDERAL, FEDERAL, FEDERAL Initiative in our new super duper restricted 2014-560 CRA/DIA Downtown Sanctuary zone?
Quote from: downtownbrown on July 16, 2015, 11:01:43 AM
He already leaked, via Mousa, that "Liberty Street" is a priority. Problem is, by "Liberty Street" he means Coastline Drive between Newman and Market in order to protect the Hyatt. I don't think Liberty Street itself is anywhere on anyone's radar.
Under the heading 'Liberty Street, Coastline Drive/Parking Deck Projects' of the Capital Improvement Plan proposed (ordinance 2015-505) $5mm is allocated this year, $9mm the next fiscal year, $6mm the year after that and then $22mm and $23mm in FY18-20.
This year, Coastline Drive would be reopend both ways from Newnan to Market St (its currently limited to one way traffic). Replacing both the Coastline and Liberty Street Bridges (which requires both a demolition and a construction phase) would take about two years to complete and cost a little over $20mm (which would probably involve a federal match to the local contribution). If the budget gets passed as proposed, both the Coastline work and the engineering plans to permanently replace both bridges would begin in October (Council must pass the budget by Oct 1st)... so clearly fixing the problem has been made a priority.
Quote from: Noone on July 17, 2015, 06:29:10 AM
Where are the Active recreational opportunities to engage our St. Johns River our American Heritage River a FEDERAL, FEDERAL, FEDERAL Initiative in our new super duper restricted 2014-560 CRA/DIA Downtown Sanctuary zone?
Under the Capital Improvement Plan proposed (ordinance 2015-505) new spending relating to recreational water access proposed:
$1.4mm is allocated to Hugenot Memorial Park Beach Access (this also neatly coincides with Governor Scott's signing of the kiteboarder exemption pushed locally by Janet Adkins, Scott Shine and other community advocates)
$848k is allocated towards dreding Pottsburg Creek
$306k is allocated to relocate the dock at Sisters Creek
$524k is allocated to replace the dock at Metro Park (which is in very bad shape)
$102k is allocated towards extending the Joe Carlucci Dock
$133k is allocated to the Wayne B Stevens Dock replacement
$200k is allocated to Alimacani Park (an acquisiton from the old Preservation Project that links to the Timucuan Preserve, and has boat and trail facilities that need upgrading/repairs)
and FINALLY (!!) $101k is allocated to placing a kayak launch at Tillie Fowler
In addition, continuation of previous capital projects approved have $137k going towards further work on the County Dock Boat Ramp Improvements and $217k towards the Mayport Boat Ramp Lane Extension (I can personally attest to this being a great project for boaters)
And after Governor Scott vetoed funding for the St Johns River Ferry, close to $1mm has been budgeted in the CIP proposed by the Mayor to keep the ferry in operation and on pace to reach the financial goals set forth by the (ridiculously hard working) St Johns River Ferry Commision.
Quote from: fieldafm on July 17, 2015, 08:06:07 AM
Quote from: downtownbrown on July 16, 2015, 11:01:43 AM
He already leaked, via Mousa, that "Liberty Street" is a priority. Problem is, by "Liberty Street" he means Coastline Drive between Newman and Market in order to protect the Hyatt. I don't think Liberty Street itself is anywhere on anyone's radar.
Under the heading 'Liberty Street, Coastline Drive/Parking Deck Projects' of the Capital Improvement Plan proposed (ordinance 2015-505) $5mm is allocated this year, $9mm the next fiscal year, $6mm the year after that and then $22mm and $23mm in FY18-20. Fixing the problem has clearly been made a priority.
So its going to take $65mm and 5 years to get these existing but deteriorating streets/parking lots into shape. I assume the parking decks are the existing ones at Liberty and Coastline and not new parking elsewhere.
That is a big chunk of change.
I edited my response for clarity Vic.
I can only presume the larger projections in years 4-5 involve some larger work related to the site that is not yet determined... again, only an assumption (probably not fair to assume).
Demolishing the existing bridges and rebuilding them is exactly what is NOT going to happen. In that whole mix comes the redevelopment effort for the old courthouse. Why would the city demolish and rebuild a huge parking lot on the river for a development that has yet to be defined? Seems pretty clear to me that the only thing very likely to be fixed is Coastline Drive in front of the Hyatt.
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/print-edition/2015/07/17/liberty-street-construction-delayed-while.html?ana=e_ph_prem&u=WlI%2520uS2dnrpUQEXzA1dC/Q0a72b012&t=1437140477
QuoteSeems pretty clear to me that the only thing very likely to be fixed is Coastline Drive in front of the Hyatt.
Yup, I do not believe there is money for anything else, at this point. Not unless some sort of "Public/Private" partnership comes forward.
Right. So the Hyatt holds trump. The residents of the Riverwalk Townhomes have what amounts to a permanently sealed entry point for service and emergency vehicles. Too bad for them.
New info on Shipyards remediation:
The $17.5 million in Curry's CIP proposal for 2016-2017 allocated to the Shipyards is for remediation of the submerged portion of the site.
The study earlier this year determined that this is how much it will cost just to clean up the submerged area.
The cost of remediation for the upland portion of the site is still TBD.
Right now, the city is holding $13 million in the coffers specifically for that upland area.
QuoteNew info on Shipyards remediation: The $17.5 million in Curry's CIP proposal for 2016-2017 allocated to the Shipyards is for remediation of the submerged portion of the site. The study earlier this year determined that this is how much it will cost just to clean up the submerged area. The cost of remediation for the upland portion of the site is still TBD. Right now, the city is holding $13 million in the coffers specifically for that upland area.
With or without the self-promotion of Shad Khan and 100 years of football, that acreage on the river will have something done with it during this administration.
Hmm....
(http://www.news4jax.com/image/view/-/31692756/medRes/1/-/maxh/360/maxw/640/-/w0l6pqz/-/shipyards1-jpg.jpg)
QuoteShipyards "not suitable for unrestricted usage"
By Stephanie Brown
Jacksonville, FL — Negotiations in to the future of the Jacksonville Shipyards are still ongoing, but we're now getting a closer look at the environmental obstacles that stand in the way.
Mechling Engineering & Consulting, Inc. has spent several months performing a comprehensive site assessment of the roughly 45 acres of land on Jacksonville's Downtown Northbank. The area was used for industrial and commercial activities dating back to the mid-1800s, and those activities have led varying levels and types of contamination. WOKV obtained a preliminary report, which showed widespread contamination. The full report now paints the fuller picture.
QuoteIn terms of soil, the two "most commonly identified at elevated concentrations across the site" are lead and arsenic. Arsenic was found in concentrations which exceeded both residential standards on about half the locations sampled, and many of the locations also exceeded commercial standards. Lead topped not only residential and commercial standards, but in some cases exceeded other toxicity regulations as well. A few other contaminants were noted as well. The report further found that material from the "Great Fire of 1901" in Downtown- including burnt wood- was likely used as fill material along the water front.
Full article: http://www.wokv.com/news/news/local/shipyards-not-suitable-unrestricted-usage/nnQMz/
Is this good news or bad news? All three of these issues can be resolved, right?
Quote from: jaxjaguar on August 25, 2015, 02:14:37 PM
Is this good news or bad news? All three of these issues can be resolved, right?
All it takes is money, more money.
Do you have to clean it up if you give it back to heavy industry? Could BAE, North Florida Shipyards or another maritime-related entity use the extra space?
As opposed to residential and commercial, what about industrial? Would the clean-up process be different and less costly?
Quote from: thelakelander on August 25, 2015, 03:08:13 PM
As opposed to residential and commercial, what about industrial? Would the clean-up process be different and less costly?
If they returned it to industrial the contamination should matter a lot less. It would be an expensive project for that use, though.
The Project New Ground situation is a different animal altogether. Regarding the shipyards, I know most prefer a mixed-use development on the site instead of industry, but I find it hard to believe that you can't overcome contamination issues, liabilities and zoning to allow for industrial use. In the event, the property were used for industry, I'm wondering what type or level of cleanup would be needed and how much would the cost difference be between them?
Where I'm going with this is:
1. Is there a way to reduce the amount of liability and needed investment on the city's part to bring the property back online?
2. If certain uses could be found that reduce the amount of money the city needs to invest in it, while returning it to the tax rolls, perhaps those uses should be further explored?
3. Taking the cash required to make this shipyards dream happen and redistributing it to a mix of projects that will have a greater positive impact on downtown.
Also, there's nothing new under the sun. Most riverfront cities in this country have had a shipyard..or two...or three, close since WWII ended. What type of strategies have they used to put these properties back into use?
^Wouldn't this allow some commercial use as well?
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but from a contamination standpoint, don't industrial and commercial uses have the same threshold? With more stringent limits for residential?
^I'm not sure. I'm hoping someone with a good understanding of dealing with brownfield redevelopment chimes in. I'm interested to see what types of options may be available to the city.
Quote from: KenFSU on August 25, 2015, 03:58:50 PM
^Wouldn't this allow some commercial use as well?
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but from a contamination standpoint, don't industrial and commercial uses have the same threshold? With more stringent limits for residential?
this is generally correct. But, for the most part, proper site planning can make a mixed use project completely doable.
Quote from: MEGATRON on August 25, 2015, 08:45:45 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on August 25, 2015, 03:58:50 PM
^Wouldn't this allow some commercial use as well?
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but from a contamination standpoint, don't industrial and commercial uses have the same threshold? With more stringent limits for residential?
this is generally correct. But, for the most part, proper site planning can make a mixed use project completely doable.
So, assuming mixed use, it could conceivably save the city a good deal of money to have a site plan finalized prior to remediation? In that, certain areas could be remediated fully for residential use, while other areas could be brought up to industrial/commercial limits only? Or would that not fly with adjacent property like this?
How about tracking down the successors of the companies who contaminated it to begin with and make them pay for it.
Here's one of them....
(http://rmkmerrill-stevens.weebly.com/uploads/3/8/5/1/38512625/_323731_orig.png)
http://rmkmerrill-stevens.weebly.com/
QuoteJohn Spencer still remembers that day just before Christmas in 2009, in the depths of the economic downturn, when Merrill-Stevens Dry Dock Co. sent workers home and suspended operations.
"After it closed, I went home and said, 'Now what the hell am I going to do?'" said Spencer, 59, who at the time was a yard superintendent at the historic boatyard on the Miami River.
So Spencer stepped up.
He raided his retirement nest egg and leased the facility from the owner, reopening for business six weeks later. Initially the yard brought back 10 workers, about 20 percent of the staff, but as much as the work could support.
"I had one boat to paint, so I said, 'Well, let's paint a boat.' Pretty soon, there was another one," Spencer said. "That was the depths of what they call the Great Recession."
But all that seems so long ago now.
Fast forward to November 2013: Turkish billionaire industrialist and philanthropist Rahmi M. Koç acquired the boatyard in cooperation with Spencer, who became the CEO and a minority partner at the business, which is reflagged RMK Merrill-Stevens.
With the marine industry showing slow, steady signs of recovering over the past two years after a dramatic plunge during the recession, Spencer said: "We've got a full order book for the fall, and we're starting to take work for 2015." The company now has 30 employees.
The new owners are weighing ambitious plans to modernize and upgrade the six-acre facility, whose history dates to 1923 in Miami, and even farther back to its founding in Jacksonville in 1885 by James Merrill and Alonzo Stevens
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/biz-monday/article3365318.html
QuoteMerrill-Stevens Drydock & Repair Co. is a shipbuilding and drydock company currently based in Miami, Florida.[1] The company was incorporated in 1885 in Jacksonville, Florida by James Eugene Merrill, and was located along the St. Johns River.[2] According to the company, it was the largest Atlantic shipyard south of Norfolk, Virginia during World War II.[3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merrill-Stevens_Drydock_%26_Repair_Co.
Quote from: finehoe on August 26, 2015, 08:00:46 AM
How about tracking down the successors of the companies who contaminated it to begin with and make them pay for it.
I believe that has been trade and the companies no longer exist.
^^Merrill-Stevens is still around. Their Miami River shipyard as of yesterday morning:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Miami-River-2015/i-NgzXsLv/0/L/DSCF7349-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Miami-River-2015/i-5xB7Zjf/0/L/DSCF7348-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Miami-River-2015/i-w2ZCV4m/0/L/DSCF7289-L.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-117-dcp_9561.JPG)
Alexander Merrill's grave in Jacksonville's Old City Cemetery.
QuoteAlexander R. Merrill, brother of the former [J. E. Merrill], is also a Charlestonian, and was born May 12th, 1861. He didn't do any work on Confederate gun-boats, unlike his brother, but he early contracted a habit for making boilers and doing general blacksmith work, and soon became a master. As already stated, he formed a partnership with J. E. Merrill, in 1880, and when the Merrill-Stevens Company was chartered he was its Secretary, and Superintendent of the boiler-making department. The history of this company is recorded in thechapter on manufacturers. Mr. Merrill is a member of the Elks Club, Knights of Pythias, and Marine Engineers. He is Royal Arch Mason, a Mystic Shriner, and also a Master Engineer. He was married in 1884 to Miss Eloise J. DeMedecis, of St. Augustine.
https://sites.google.com/site/duvalcountyflgenweb/home/biographies/merrill-a-r
The Jacksonville Shipyards site was operated by Merrill-Stevens for a little over 70 years before they sold the site to Aerojet and moved all of their business to Miami.
QuoteMerrill-Stevens Engineering, Jacksonville FL
(later Aerojet-General, Rawls Brothers and Jacksonville Shipyards)
This shipyard was established by Jacob Brock in the 1850s: after Brock's death in 1877, it was sold to Alonzo Stevens, who teamed up with James Merrill, a blacksmith in South Jacksonville, and formed Merrill-Stevens Engineering. The company relocated to Miami in the 1950s, where it is still in business, as Merrill-Stevens Dry Dock, Inc., describing itself as "Florida's oldest continuously operating company". The shipyard in Jacksonville was then sold to Aerojet-General Corporation but resold in 1960 to Rawls Brothers, who renamed it Rawls Brothers Shipyard. The Rawls sold it again in 1963 to Bill Lovett, who simultaneously bought Gibbs Gas Engine Company, the shipyard immediately across the river, and Bellinger Shipyards, in Jacksonville Beach, renaming them all Jacksonville Shipyards. The new company was sold again in 1969, this time to Fruehauf Corporation. Finally, in 1989, it was sold to Terex Corp., which closed all three shipyards for good in 1992, selling the two large floating dry-docks to the Arab Ship Repair Yard, (ASRY), in Bahrain. The yard was located at 750 E. Bay Street, in downtown Jacksonville: it was to have been developed for residential and commercial use but still lies deserted.
http://www.shipbuildinghistory.com/history/shipyards/2large/inactive/merrillstevens.htm
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/690726584_NqrCF-M.jpg)
From left to right: A. Stevens, James Eugene and Alexander Merrill(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/690725195_ozt6Y-M.jpg)
Jacksonville shipyards site in 1903.
The second longest operator of the site was Fruehauf. Founded in Detroit in 1918, Fruehauf was the first to make semi-trailers. Fruehauf purchased the shipyards in 1969 and sold it in 1989 to Terex. Fruehauf when bankrupt in 1996. Terex, a road construction equipment manufacturer, planned to sell the shipyard. If they couldn't find a buyer, they claimed they'd close it. In 1991, they sold the dry docks (the shipyard's primary revenue earners) to a shipyard in Bahrain for $28.8 million. A few months later, they shut it down for good. Terex is still around today. It's a Fortune 500 company with over $7 billion in annual revenue and over 20,000 employees worldwide.
While keeping in mind what the Cowboys are doing in Frisco, Texas I think it's also worthwhile to keep an eye on the Braves and what they are doing in suburban Atlanta -- The Battery Atlanta:
http://batteryatl.com/
The renderings -- man, if we can get anything remotely close to this . . . .
http://batteryatl.com/renderings/
Shad! Make it happen, man, make it happen.
Quote from: RattlerGator on October 14, 2015, 01:11:57 PM
While keeping in mind what the Cowboys are doing in Frisco, Texas I think it's also worthwhile to keep an eye on the Braves and what they are doing in suburban Atlanta -- The Battery Atlanta:
http://batteryatl.com/
The renderings -- man, if we can get anything remotely close to this . . . .
http://batteryatl.com/renderings/
Shad! Make it happen, man, make it happen.
I just wish the Braves had picked a spot closer to the MARTA. That bus shuttle is going to be really long from the nearest station. It is beautiful to look at, though.
^ agreed....those buildings look real nice with all that brick and glass. Almost looks like the buildings in downtown Atlanta. Now just imagine if the Braves had built a new stadium in the core instead of at a beltway/perimeter interchange.
You know . . . Atlanta is something of a city-state unto itself and that's where a larger percentage of their fans are, by and large. Hard to blame them for placing it out there. And the idea that all major stadiums should be in the urban core strikes me as an incredibly narrow point-of-view.
I know people are predicting a situation that is FUBAR all the way; I've stayed out at that intersection -- it certainly looks like it might be something of a mess. We shall see.
Quote from: TimmyB on October 14, 2015, 01:26:53 PMI just wish the Braves had picked a spot closer to the MARTA. That bus shuttle is going to be really long from the nearest station. It is beautiful to look at, though.
You would be missing the racial undertones of the move to Cobb County and the fact that they specifically do not want "those people" coming into town.
QuoteCobb County GOP Chairman Joe Dendy sent out a statement that included these thoughts on mass transit and taxes:
"It is absolutely necessary the solution is all about moving cars in and around Cobb and surrounding counties from our north and east where most Braves fans travel from, and not moving people into Cobb by rail from Atlanta.
^they said the same thing decades ago about extending MARTA to Marietta. But it happened.
I remember the mayor of Atlanta talking about the move when it was announced. Cobb County offered serious concessions that Atlanta didn't want to match. He specifically compared it to the Falcons stadium, which is taking "only" $200 million in city money, will help bring in a soccer team, and is tied to additional, tax-generating developments in the surrounding area. He considered the Braves proposal a wash.
Quote from: downtownbrown on October 15, 2015, 09:38:28 AM
^they said the same thing decades ago about extending MARTA to Marietta. But it happened.
No, it didn't. Cobb County is up I-75,
(https://martaguide.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/marta-station-line-map.jpg?w=620)
As a long-time Braves fan, and I know it's only my opinion, I believe the Braves would have been more than happy to stay in ATL proper. The city bent over backwards for the Falcons and would do nothing to help the Braves. When it became obvious that this was the case, the Braves made the logical choice. They will now own the parking, the concessions, AND the stadium, three things they don't currently have. If only we could get a manager, but that's another thread on here, somewhere!
Quote from: tufsu1 on October 14, 2015, 10:09:12 PM
^ agreed....those buildings look real nice with all that brick and glass. Almost looks like the buildings in downtown Atlanta. Now just imagine if the Braves had built a new stadium in the core instead of at a beltway/perimeter interchange.
Yeah, that area is a cluster to begin with on a good day. PM rush, with a home game? Yikes!
Best answer yet for "The Shipyards?"
I propose giving the land to George Lucas as a site for his Star Wars Museum.
http://fortune.com/2016/05/04/george-lucas-star-wars-museum/
Give him the land. Or at least a nice big chunk of it. Do not delay. It will make downtown Jacksonville an International destination overnight and increase tourism to the First Coast by 1000% as soon as it's completed.
It might also resurrect our long dormant film industry.
What do you guys think?
With Disney building a new and expansive "Star Wars Land" just a couple of hours south from us, do you think people are more likely to visit Florida for the museum or a shiny new theme park?
Go to the link. It will be "The Lucas Museum of Narrative Art." It will hold his personal Star Wars memorabilia collection
and part of his personal art collection.
So it will draw people up from Disney/Orlando plus give folks driving south a reason to stop in downtown. The art collection draws a completely
different set of people. It would be a huge get for downtown Jacksonville, and it's the type of site he's looking for.
Not saying attempting to compete should not be done but not sure the Shipyards is a desired as we think. Why would Lucas want a site with a century's worth of contamination? Not to mention the jail, a coffee roasting plant and Berkman II's skeleton being the next door neighbors? We'd not only have to give it to him, we'd have to throw in a few escorts, a Brinks truck loaded with weed and pay him a couple of million for him to seriously consider the offer.
Quote from: MusicMan on May 05, 2016, 08:18:25 AM
Best answer yet for "The Shipyards?"
I propose giving the land to George Lucas as a site for his Star Wars Museum
(http://www.trbimg.com/img-55fc14ab/turbine/ct-lucas-museum-chicago-design-met-20150917/400/400x225)
That would be better suited for the vacant land in La Villa than the Shipyards.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on May 05, 2016, 09:25:22 AM
That would be better suited for the vacant land in La Villa than the Shipyards.
You posted that while I was typing this:
I gotta admit I heard the piece on NPR this morning and immediately thought of the shipyards. Although it probably isn't big enough, so I propose giving them 1/2 of the wasteland called LaVilla.
Quote from: Houseboat Mike on May 05, 2016, 09:29:04 AM
... I heard the piece on NPR this morning and immediately thought of the shipyards...
I'm sure that was the universal reaction to every MJ denizen who listened to that piece this morning. ;D
Would that be considered a "Downtown Game Changer?"
I think it's worth making the call to Lucas and his wife.........................
The article says he has $700 Million set aside for construction. Ought to be able to fit the clean up somewhere in that budget.
Will he even consider Jax without comprehensive LGBT protections?
(Assuming he would anyway)
Quote from: Apache on May 05, 2016, 12:40:58 PM
George Lucas is not going to consider Jacksonville F-L-A for his museum even if we paint the Main Street Bridge like a rainbow flag and change the city's name to Diversityville. Stop this.
^ ;D ;D
Quote from: Apache on May 05, 2016, 12:40:58 PM
George Lucas is not going to consider Jacksonville F-L-A for his museum even if we paint the Main Street Bridge like a rainbow flag and change the city's name to Diversityville. Stop this.
I dunno...a lot of people said that about the NFL... ;D
Correct sir. The NFL would NEVER come to Jacksonville. It's too small of a market.
Quote from: MusicMan on May 05, 2016, 10:02:27 PM
Correct sir. The NFL would NEVER come to Jacksonville. It's too small of a market.
Apples and Oranges.
We were fortunate in 1993 the way the circumstances game together but St. Louis fumbled badly with their bid. Baltimore also was having stadium issues to work out. Because those two markets were out, it was between Charlotte, Jacksonville, and Memphis for two spots. Charlotte and Jacksonville are the larger markets.
This type of tourist attraction would be great but would make more sense where there are a lot of tourists. I imagine we would be competing against Los Angeles, Orlando, Miami, and New York for something of this magnitude. Maybe I am wrong, but it is a lot longer a shot than getting the NFL. Maybe I am wrong though. Might as well bid on it.
Quote from: FlaBoy on May 06, 2016, 12:13:59 AM
This type of tourist attraction would be great but would make more sense where there are a lot of tourists. I imagine we would be competing against Los Angeles, Orlando, Miami, and New York for something of this magnitude. Maybe I am wrong, but it is a lot longer a shot than getting the NFL. Maybe I am wrong though. Might as well bid on it.
Seems like the great city of Chicago is the front runner in that respect.
Quote from: BenderRodriguez on May 06, 2016, 12:42:07 AM
Quote from: FlaBoy on May 06, 2016, 12:13:59 AM
This type of tourist attraction would be great but would make more sense where there are a lot of tourists. I imagine we would be competing against Los Angeles, Orlando, Miami, and New York for something of this magnitude. Maybe I am wrong, but it is a lot longer a shot than getting the NFL. Maybe I am wrong though. Might as well bid on it.
Seems like the great city of Chicago is the front runner in that respect.
yes, however there is a lawsuit opposing the museum as they are trying to put it on public land. Scuttlebutt is that the Lucas peeps are getting tired of waiting.
Quote from: BenderRodriguez on May 06, 2016, 12:42:07 AM
Quote from: FlaBoy on May 06, 2016, 12:13:59 AM
This type of tourist attraction would be great but would make more sense where there are a lot of tourists. I imagine we would be competing against Los Angeles, Orlando, Miami, and New York for something of this magnitude. Maybe I am wrong, but it is a lot longer a shot than getting the NFL. Maybe I am wrong though. Might as well bid on it.
Seems like the great city of Chicago is the front runner in that respect.
Exactly! And before that it was San Francisco's museum to lose but they didn't want it either...at this rate it very well could end up in Jax in another 15 years or so.
Just noticed that there is a full Jacksonville city council vote scheduled in 3 days on 2016-305 a PPP
Public, Private, Partnership
Public, Passive, Pier
In two committees Finance, TEU
NOT Waterways that meets the next day.
Is this an emergency?
Stay Positive.
"Exactly! And before that it was San Francisco's museum to lose but they didn't want it either...at this rate it very well could end up in Jax in another 15 years or so."
Just in time for the environmental clean up (at The Shipyards) to be finished!!
Quote from: stephendare on May 08, 2016, 06:23:03 PM
If we could talk them into erecting a public statue of Don Estridge, the jaxon who created the IBM PC.
I've lived here a decade and this is the first time I've heard this fact.
Pretty cool.
Certainly worthy of a statue.
The city has nullified its development agreement with Iguana in order to re-issue an RFP inclusive of more property.
Much like the Barnett, there's still a very real possibility that Khan plays reluctant developer, but for the most part, this seems to mark the end of the Shipyards project as it was initially proposed.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=548842
Quote from: KenFSU on December 01, 2016, 11:55:53 AM
The city has nullified its development agreement with Iguana in order to re-issue an RFP inclusive of more property.
Much like the Barnett, there's still a very real possibility that Khan plays reluctant developer, but for the most part, this seems to mark the end of the Shipyards project as it was initially proposed.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=548842
Thankfully, that crazy proposal was effectively ended when Sam Mousa returned to City Hall. It will be interesting to see what's proposed now.
Or perhaps he has no desire to develop the Shipyards site now and is only interested in the Metropolitan Park site. Which would make sense based upon recents discussions. So this will just now open the Shipyards development back to all the others that showed interest before, so perhaps the Ark is back in play.
Quote from: stephendare on May 08, 2016, 06:23:03 PM
If we could talk them into erecting a public statue of Don Estridge, the jaxon who created the IBM PC and John Archibald Wheeler, the native who coined the term Black Hole and led to some of the most revolutionary theoretical physics of the last century, while they are at it there would be a legitimate tie in.
Stephen, do you know if Estridge's influence was the reason IBM had an office in Jacksonville for a number of years in what's now the Suddath building on the Southbank?
Quote from: stephendare on December 01, 2016, 03:11:36 PM
Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on December 01, 2016, 12:23:17 PM
Quote from: stephendare on May 08, 2016, 06:23:03 PM
If we could talk them into erecting a public statue of Don Estridge, the jaxon who created the IBM PC and John Archibald Wheeler, the native who coined the term Black Hole and led to some of the most revolutionary theoretical physics of the last century, while they are at it there would be a legitimate tie in.
Stephen, do you know if Estridge's influence was the reason IBM had an office in Jacksonville for a number of years in what's now the Suddath building on the Southbank?
IBM benefitted for many years from the deep reserve of technical engineers who lived (and worked) here because of the Navy.
I was actually lucky enough to live across the street from a couple of (now retired) naval intelligence agents. One of whom was a communications and electrical engineer.
Got to play on an early desktop computer using Estridge's general designs in the late 1970s. About five years before the first PC was introduced to the consumer market.
If you think about it, its one of the reasons that Jville is actually pretty advanced in some ways. We have a spaceport and one of the drone manufacturing giants here in town for a reason after all.
But yet, still no floating nuclear power plant in the middle of the St. Johns. ;D
Yeah and that's a shame, I was looking forward to the "Glow in the Dark" manatees.
Quote from: MusicMan on December 01, 2016, 04:26:08 PM
Yeah and that's a shame, I was looking forward to the "Glow in the Dark" manatees.
You guys got nothing on our "pre-cooked salmon" up here in the Great Lakes!
Mark Lamping confirmed this morning that the plan is to bring a portion of the original Shipyards proposal, including hotel, to Metro Park, and move Metro Park greenspace to the Shipyards property.
Quote from: KenFSU on December 06, 2016, 10:00:08 AM
Mark Lamping confirmed this morning that the plan is to bring a portion of the original Shipyards proposal, including hotel, to Metro Park, and move Metro Park greenspace to the Shipyards property.
By "moving the green space" does he mean turning the area into a managed park, or just leave it as a flex field for game day parking? It would be nice to see fountains, landscaping, play areas, etc on that spot. Somehow, though, I think I may be over-imagining it.
^ In order to relocate Metro Park, they will need sign-off from the state because of the grant money used to acquire the park originally. So no, they won't be able to just have an open field that is used for gameday parking.
Curry also stated this morning that there will be a lot of news coming in January, and that public safety and downtown development were on top of his list for 2017. Mentioned a desire to do Hemming right, the need for more residential density, and a new RFP for the area between Berkman 2 and Met Park.
He also suggested that the old courthouse will be coming down soon and developed privately.
Coming down? So they going to raze it then? The phrase coming down soon, does that mean 10 years or 20? :)
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on December 06, 2016, 04:02:49 PM
Coming down? So they going to raze it then? The phrase coming down soon, does that mean 10 years or 20? :)
Take this with a grain of salt, I might have misheard (I reached out for clarification), but I believe the old Courthouse could be demo'd as soon as early next year, in tandem with the demo work at Coastline/Liberty. Not sure how economies of scale work with demolition, but on the surface, seems to make a lot of sense. Once the parking deck is gone, the value of that property increases significantly.
Quote from: KenFSU on December 07, 2016, 03:19:15 PM
I believe the old Courthouse may be demo'd early next year, in tandem with the demo work at Coastline/Liberty.
I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking this... but if history is any guide, there's a distinct possibility that after the demo, there'll just be yet another empty lot for who knows how long.
The single biggest RFP in city history - 70 acres on the river, inclusive of Shipyards and Metro Park - goes live in an hour:
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2017/01/04/want-to-develop-the-shipyards-and-metropolitan.html
Buckle up, buckaroos.
Quote from: KenFSU on January 04, 2017, 10:58:45 PM
The single biggest RFP in city history - 70 acres on the river, inclusive of Shipyards and Metro Park - goes live in an hour:
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2017/01/04/want-to-develop-the-shipyards-and-metropolitan.html
Buckle up, buckaroos.
I'm sensing something special about to happen...
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/HB3aZvPvy9c/maxresdefault.jpg)
We're new to the area and we'd love downtown to be as great as the big cities we originally are from.
Question: Is Jacksonville getting a deep water port upgrade and if not, what exactly will the new shipyards be used for?
Quote from: aldermanparklover on January 16, 2017, 07:27:45 PM
We're new to the area and we'd love downtown to be as great as the big cities we originally are from.
Question: Is Jacksonville getting a deep water port upgrade and if not, what exactly will the new shipyards be used for?
ProTip - When you're this late to the party, try reading the whole thread before making an asinine comment based off of your misunderstanding of the title. Context is your friend here. (Quite possibly your only one...)
Quote from: KenFSU on January 04, 2017, 10:58:45 PM
The single biggest RFP in city history - 70 acres on the river, inclusive of Shipyards and Metro Park - goes live in an hour:
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2017/01/04/want-to-develop-the-shipyards-and-metropolitan.html
Buckle up, buckaroos.
Yea ,Public Land scenarios soon to go to Private
8)
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on January 16, 2017, 09:34:53 PM
Quote from: aldermanparklover on January 16, 2017, 07:27:45 PM
We're new to the area and we'd love downtown to be as great as the big cities we originally are from.
Question: Is Jacksonville getting a deep water port upgrade and if not, what exactly will the new shipyards be used for?
ProTip - When you're this late to the party, try reading the whole thread before making an asinine comment based off of your misunderstanding of the title. Context is your friend here. (Quite possibly your only one...)
Yeah well I'm not reading 47 pages of thread to get an answer to a simple question if I can help it - I did a quick google search and nothing solid yielded so I figured it would be quicker to ask - assuming the people here are friendly and helpful "neighbors"
you however make me think not buying in westside was a good idea
Quote from: aldermanparklover on January 16, 2017, 07:27:45 PM
We're new to the area and we'd love downtown to be as great as the big cities we originally are from.
Question: Is Jacksonville getting a deep water port upgrade and if not, what exactly will the new shipyards be used for?
Quote from: aldermanparklover on January 17, 2017, 01:43:27 AM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on January 16, 2017, 09:34:53 PM
Quote from: aldermanparklover on January 16, 2017, 07:27:45 PM
We're new to the area and we'd love downtown to be as great as the big cities we originally are from.
Question: Is Jacksonville getting a deep water port upgrade and if not, what exactly will the new shipyards be used for?
ProTip - When you're this late to the party, try reading the whole thread before making an asinine comment based off of your misunderstanding of the title. Context is your friend here. (Quite possibly your only one...)
Yeah well I'm not reading 47 pages of thread to get an answer to a simple question if I can help it - I did a quick google search and nothing solid yielded so I figured it would be quicker to ask - assuming the people here are friendly and helpful "neighbors"
you however make me think not buying in westside was a good idea
Lol, the first post on page 1 of this thread will provide you with the quickest answer to your question. It even comes with a rendering for those who don't feel like reading.
Quote from: aldermanparklover on January 16, 2017, 07:27:45 PM
We're new to the area and we'd love downtown to be as great as the big cities we originally are from.
Question: Is Jacksonville getting a deep water port upgrade and if not, what exactly will the new shipyards be used for?
Don't worry. There are plenty of friendly people in Jacksonville. :)
In a nutshell, Jacksonville in the process of trying to redevelop the site of the former downtown shipyards. It has sat empty for decades, and it has seen several redevelopment plans come and go with no progress. The owner of the Jaguars has had an interest in the site because of its proximity to the stadium, but now they are considering also including an existing public park that is adjacent to both the former Shipyards and the stadium.
The deepening of the port has more to do with other shipping terminals along the river because the shipyards is about commercial and residential types of uses.
Welcome to Jacksonville.
Good response, Fallen Buckeye.
Damn. You get a new reader . . . and it's slap city. Greater effort could have been made but . . . damn.
Thank you Fallen Buckeye. If you don't like someone's posts, why not just ignore it? Thanks also to NRW for removing all doubt that a "Non-Redneck Westsider" is an oxymoron.
Quote from: Snaketoz on January 17, 2017, 08:19:09 AM
Thank you Fallen Buckeye. If you don't like someone's posts, why not just ignore it? Thanks also to MMR for removing all doubt that a "Non-Redneck Westsider" is an oxymoron.
I think you meant NRW... but hey, I've been wrong before.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on January 17, 2017, 08:37:08 AM
Quote from: Snaketoz on January 17, 2017, 08:19:09 AM
Thank you Fallen Buckeye. If you don't like someone's posts, why not just ignore it? Thanks also to MMR for removing all doubt that a "Non-Redneck Westsider" is an oxymoron.
I think you meant NRW... but hey, I've been wrong before.
Thank you. I've corrected that.
Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on January 17, 2017, 07:18:11 AM
In a nutshell, Jacksonville in the process of trying to redevelop the site of the former downtown shipyards. It has sat empty for decades, and it has seen several redevelopment plans come and go with no progress. The owner of the Jaguars has had an interest in the site because of its proximity to the stadium, but now they are considering also including an existing public park that is adjacent to both the former Shipyards and the stadium.
The only other thing worth noting is that the primary reason that the Shipyards has sat empty for decades is that the property is heavily contaminated and unfit for most types of development in its current state. Cost of full cleanup is expected to exceed $30 million. Portions of the property can probably be used as parkspace though with the existing environmental cap that is already in place. For this reason, the latest RFP for the property includes Metropolitan Park next door as well, with the idea being that the master developer chosen (likely Jaguars' own Shad Khan if the last RFP is any indication) can essentially move Metro Park to a portion of the contaminated land, and develop the existing Metro Park site, which is clean. This could potentially save millions of dollars in remediation costs, and allow for development immediately adjacent to new construction at Everbank Field (the amphitheater and covered flex space). A hotel with convention space has been the most talked about use for the Met Park space. To further open up the Shipyards and Sports Complex to the river, the mayor is petitioning the state for up funding to remove the ramps along that corridor. Plan B is a pedestrian overpass that connects the south end of the stadium complex to Metropolitan Park. A winner should be selected in March, and any development will be contingent of the federal government approving the land swap between the Shipyards and Metro Park (which shouldn't be an issue if a reasonable attempt is made at making the exchange in-kind).
Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on January 17, 2017, 07:18:11 AM
Quote from: aldermanparklover on January 16, 2017, 07:27:45 PM
We're new to the area and we'd love downtown to be as great as the big cities we originally are from.
Question: Is Jacksonville getting a deep water port upgrade and if not, what exactly will the new shipyards be used for?
Don't worry. There are plenty of friendly people in Jacksonville. :)
In a nutshell, Jacksonville in the process of trying to redevelop the site of the former downtown shipyards. It has sat empty for decades, and it has seen several redevelopment plans come and go with no progress. The owner of the Jaguars has had an interest in the site because of its proximity to the stadium, but now they are considering also including an existing public park that is adjacent to both the former Shipyards and the stadium.
The deepening of the port has more to do with other shipping terminals along the river because the shipyards is about commercial and residential types of uses.
Welcome to Jacksonville.
Thanks for the assist - so Shipyards is just a legacy name and they won't be actively used as shipyards? I saw the drawings and it looked like boat slips but everyone keeps saying shipyards.
Thirty million for cleanup is a lot but had this been done long ago, we would have buildings and businesses on the tax roles. We found how many million for the scoreboards and the amphitheater, but none to clean up this prime piece of land in all this time? Really?
Quote from: aldermanparklover on January 17, 2017, 11:35:51 AM
Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on January 17, 2017, 07:18:11 AM
Quote from: aldermanparklover on January 16, 2017, 07:27:45 PM
We're new to the area and we'd love downtown to be as great as the big cities we originally are from.
Question: Is Jacksonville getting a deep water port upgrade and if not, what exactly will the new shipyards be used for?
Don't worry. There are plenty of friendly people in Jacksonville. :)
In a nutshell, Jacksonville in the process of trying to redevelop the site of the former downtown shipyards. It has sat empty for decades, and it has seen several redevelopment plans come and go with no progress. The owner of the Jaguars has had an interest in the site because of its proximity to the stadium, but now they are considering also including an existing public park that is adjacent to both the former Shipyards and the stadium.
The deepening of the port has more to do with other shipping terminals along the river because the shipyards is about commercial and residential types of uses.
Welcome to Jacksonville.
Thanks for the assist - so Shipyards is just a legacy name and they won't be actively used as shipyards? I saw the drawings and it looked like boat slips but everyone keeps saying shipyards.
Lol, yes. It used to be an actual shipyard but that closed decades ago (a shipyard is a place where ships are built, not just a place they go). The shipyard is distinct from the
port, the main facilities of which are on the Northside around the Dames Point area, with some facilities on the east end of Downtown and elsewhere.
The former Shipyards property downtown is what this thread is talking about, if you read the first post. After some failed private ventures, the city owns the property and has been trying to figure out what to do with it. Shad Khan has expressed interest because of its proximity to the stadium district. However, his initial plans were a bad deal for the city, and we ended up building some of what he wanted to build (an amphitheater and practice field) closer to the stadium. The current administration is working with him on a new plan, which apparently would bundle it with Metropolitan Park for some kind of big mixed-use project that includes a public park element and marina.
Also, while we're giving history tutorials, you should know that Shad Khan is the biggest welfare queen in Duval County.
Quote from: finehoe on January 17, 2017, 01:08:52 PM
Also, while we're giving history tutorials, you should know that Shad Khan is the biggest welfare queen public-private business partner who has spent millions of his own money in Duval County.
FIFY
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on January 18, 2017, 08:51:31 AM
Quote from: RattlerGator on January 17, 2017, 01:36:58 PM
Quote from: finehoe on January 17, 2017, 01:08:52 PM
Also, while we're giving history tutorials, you should know that Shad Khan is the biggest welfare queen public-private business partner who has spent millions of his own money in Duval County.
FIFY
Nah, brah. I don't care if he spent millions of his own money-- you know, that's sort of his responsibility, seeing as he is the one who reaps all the profit and also, you know, owns the damn team. I don't know why rabid NFL fans can't take the blinders off and admit that the billionaire owners are scamming the hell out of them. All data shows that pro sports are complete taxpayer rip offs. But, in response, all fans give is LALALALALALALALA CANT HEAR YOU FOOTBAW SO IMPORTANT MY LIFE WOULD END WITHOUT IT*
*See response of fans in September 2011 when one weeks' slate of games was cancelled
Totally the opposite of college footbaw homers, of course. They are enlightened and would never buy into such scams.
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on January 18, 2017, 08:51:31 AM
Quote from: RattlerGator on January 17, 2017, 01:36:58 PM
Quote from: finehoe on January 17, 2017, 01:08:52 PM
Also, while we're giving history tutorials, you should know that Shad Khan is the biggest welfare queen public-private business partner who has spent millions of his own money in Duval County.
FIFY
Nah, brah. I don't care if he spent millions of his own money-- you know, that's sort of his responsibility, seeing as he is the one who reaps all the profit and also, you know, owns the damn team. I don't know why rabid NFL fans can't take the blinders off and admit that the billionaire owners are scamming the hell out of them. All data shows that pro sports are complete taxpayer rip offs. But, in response, all fans give is LALALALALALALALA CANT HEAR YOU FOOTBAW SO IMPORTANT MY LIFE WOULD END WITHOUT IT*
*See response of fans in September 2011 when one weeks' slate of games was cancelled
Just ask San Diego how nice an NFL team can be. What a joke. At least California cities have to vote for any public money to be used for sports teams and every time it fails the vote. San Diego said no and the team packed up and took their ball with them. Everyone agrees that it is a terribly bad financial move for the Chargers, but does the owner care? No. LA doesn't want the team and they are just piggybacking off another owner who put up his "own" money ( what a novel concept) for a LA stadium.
So, Mayor Curry is talking about this with a supposed "big meeting" coming next month.
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/jacksonville/mayor-big-things-could-be-coming-to-downtown-jacksonville
Is this just more of the same, or is something really happening?
I try to remain optimistic. I would like to see this proposal going North as he "hinted"
Quote from: martt12 on December 05, 2017, 07:54:50 PM
I try to remain optimistic. I would like to see this proposal going North as he "hinted"
I haven't been around long enough to be pessimistic, but I can understand why a lot of the long-time Jax residents would be. I'd just like to see it going, instead of just "envisioned"!
Quote from: TimmyB on December 05, 2017, 07:28:18 PM
So, Mayor Curry is talking about this with a supposed "big meeting" coming next month.
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/jacksonville/mayor-big-things-could-be-coming-to-downtown-jacksonville
Is this just more of the same, or is something really happening?
If you put all of the context clues together, it's pretty clear where this is going.
Curry wants to partner with Cordish on a "Jacksonville Live" type venue, to be built between Everbank and the Baseball Grounds.
(https://snag.gy/unyLoP.jpg)
Not sure if/how Iguana would be involved, but they're clearly pushing for it, as evidenced by Khan flying Curry out to St. Louis, Baltimore, and KC a few months back, and as evidenced by Lamping's previous success with Ballpark Village.
I like it in that 1) it really does catalyze the sports district and make it more of a one-stop destination for locals and visitors, 2) you could probably have something open for business before the city even finishes remediation of the Shipyards and/or removal of the Hart Bridge ramps.
That said, it's also probably too far removed from the CBD to get much foot traffic on non-event days, and it certainly does point to the fact that work on the Shipyards is very, very far out.
I believe Shad will be involved. He wants to move forward even if Shipyards keeps getting delayed. The indoor practice facility and the amphitheater are good examples. Now we move to entertainment district. As said, near stadium work can start "tomorrow".
I believe the Shipyards will become more hotel, office and residential and park space in final design.
Hopefully, it will be built on Lot J in the image above.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 06, 2017, 10:04:41 AM
Hopefully, it will be built on Lot J in the image above.
Is lot J big enough?
For a Cordish project? Yes, those things are like miniature Jax Landings in most markets Jax's size.
I guess you can put the final nail int he Landing coffin. FL-GA and the like would move to the Cordish project.
Pretty much. Sleiman would have to counter with something like making the Landing a mix of a local food hall, limited retail supported by the Northbank core and some strategic cultural use type destinations. Cordish is like a new age Rouse. They probably aren't going to jump all in on a local authentic route. You'll get a similar tenant mix to the other Live developments across the country. However, who knows what's going to happen with the Landing, outside of it being tied up in court for years.
Looking through Cordish's portfolio. Could we possibly see a "LIVE!" hotel & entertainment concept coming to the sports complex area? It's really one of the pieces that's missing outside of any major shopping experience. Especially since all recent Khan roads have been pointing towards both hotel and entertainment. Why not knock out both with someone who has the experience?
Here's a thought. They are moving the entertainment part of the Shipyards to the sports complex proper. They are saving the Shipyards and the District for Amazon.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 06, 2017, 10:04:41 AM
Hopefully, it will be built on Lot J in the image above.
Thank you. That was going to be my next question.
Is there currently enough parking down there for Jags games, assuming a full house? I mean, would giving up this lot greatly impact parking?
Quote from: vicupstate on December 06, 2017, 12:10:48 PM
I guess you can put the final nail int he Landing coffin. FL-GA and the like would move to the Cordish project.
Sleiman is pretty much putting the nail in himself
Quote from: jaxjags on December 06, 2017, 02:35:52 PM
Here's a thought. They are moving the entertainment part of the Shipyards to the sports complex proper. They are saving the Shipyards and the District for Amazon.
The Shipyards was supposedly included as part of the Amazon pitch, with the Jags blessing.
Mark Lamping worked closely with the city on the pitch.
Clearly not going to happen, but Shipyards for Amazon was definitely discussed.
Quote from: TimmyB on December 06, 2017, 02:54:08 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on December 06, 2017, 10:04:41 AM
Hopefully, it will be built on Lot J in the image above.
Thank you. That was going to be my next question.
Is there currently enough parking down there for Jags games, assuming a full house? I mean, would giving up this lot greatly impact parking?
It would certainly affect parking revenue. But it was always in the long-term plans to develop some lots, and potentially to build more garages to make up for the lost spaces. That's why the lots are gridded following the nearby street pattern.