Khan's Jacksonville Shipyards Plans Revealed

[Kerry]

The elevated express way needs to come down.

[downtownbrown]

^ what is the proposed access to the Hart Bridge if the elevated road goes away?

[Kerry]

^ what is the proposed access to the Hart Bridge if the elevated road goes away?

Just move the ramp closer to where the bridge is.  It should go to grade as fast as possible after crossing the river.  It was elevated so people didn't have to drive through industrial wasteland, but now that the industrial wasteland is going away it needs to be removed to make room for not only this development but future adjacent development.

[downtownbrown]

^so you'd put it on the ground between the stadium and the river?  Why create that traffic nightmare in the middle of a walking destination?

[Kerry]

Elevated freeways are being converted to walkable at-grade boulevards all over America and in Europe (where walkability never went away), urban freeways don't even exist. 

[simms3]

^^^San Francisco is the best example of this (its double-decker elevated freeways were damaged in the '89 earthquake and it was a bit of a forced wise decision), but Seattle, Syracuse, and Milwaukee are also good, current examples.

In San Francisco's case, the Embarcadero Freeway cut the city off from the waterfront and elevated crime along the wharves.  The waterfront everyone thinks of today with the Ferry Building, cruise terminal, Bloomberg offices, activated piers, Exploratorium, etc would not be possible if the freeway were still there.  There are a series of leftover above grade walkways too that connect some of the area buildings above what used to be freeway offramps into the city.

The Central Freeway was closed down and removed to the chagrin of residents who used it to gain access to the interstate.  However, what was once a neighborhood as infamous and dangerous as the nationally infamous Tenderloin is now my personal favorite neighborhood in the city and one of my favorite neighborhoods anywhere (I can't afford it, but I like to go).  It's known as Hayes Valley and is absurdly cute and chic today - pictures do not do it justice and the vibe is unreal.

http://www.pps.org/reference/octavia-boulevard-creating-a-vibrant-neighborhood-from-a-former-freeway/

http://www.cnu.org/highways/sfoctavia


There's definitely precedence.  Models would be found in other cities.  I'll try to dig up better articles/pictures on the conversion of double-decker Central Freeway to Patricia's Green.  On the road, however...

[Wacca Pilatka]

I often wonder whether Austin will one day find a way to convert the double decker I-35 to an at-grade road, but that would require routing interstate traffic differently first, of course.  I guess Syracuse is still working on this plan.  Ending I-81's severance of downtown from the university area is a fine plan for Syracuse.

[Kerry]

This is the problem with a project this big.  There are just so many issue to discuss and if we get bogged down in freeway replacement discussions we neglect so many other issues (like why not build the elevated football fields over the parking lot at Everbank, instead of on prime waterfront land)

[heights unknown]

When the concept of the scoreboards and pool cabanas were first introduced by Khan, were they also attached with an initial price tag / implementation strategy? Either way, I would have a hard time believing Khan would waste his time and energy on a project of this magnitude if he didn't think it was completely possible and rational. This is the coolest idea I've ever seen for Jacksonville and we are so fortunate to have someone like Khan wanting to invest so much into our city.

Agreed. Excellent. Aggressive, and quite different for Jacksonville; almost Europeanesque. Hope it moves forward. I too don't think that Kahn would waste his time regarding a project of this caliber if He didn't mean business.

[downtownbrown]

Elevated freeways are being converted to walkable at-grade boulevards all over America and in Europe (where walkability never went away), urban freeways don't even exist.

Yes, I get that.  I lived in Boston before the Big Dig.  But in this case, if I am driving from anywhere in the Core toward the Beaches, I'd rather jump on the Hart Bridge via Liberty Street than have to drive through the Shipyards, and past and around the stadium.

[acme54321]

Elevated freeways are being converted to walkable at-grade boulevards all over America and in Europe (where walkability never went away), urban freeways don't even exist.

Yes, I get that.  I lived in Boston before the Big Dig.  But in this case, if I am driving from anywhere in the Core toward the Beaches, I'd rather jump on the Hart Bridge via Liberty Street than have to drive through the Shipyards, and past and around the stadium.

You could go a few blocks north and get on the Matthews.

[downtownbrown]

^horrible option.  The trip through Arlington and Regency is doable, of course, but much less convenient for me that Hart to Beach.

[simms3]

^^^So in other words, because you and a few thousand other people enjoy the slightly quicker convenience of limited access highway starting a few blocks earlier, we should never think about a bigger plan that focuses on aesthetics and superior urban design for a wider audience, including visitors to the city?

Traffic in Jax is not bad.  I would think no more than 3-5 minutes would be added to a commute if the elevated expressways were torn down.

[JBTripper]

Goodness gracious me. Some of y'all can't see the forest for the trees. zOMG wooden boardwalks! Coconut palms! Footballs bouncing off rooftops! River currents!

Get a grip, folks. What you watched as a promotional video of some preliminary design renderings. The idea that none of this can possibly happen because the trees aren't native... or the boardwalk will rot... or the hot air balloons are too low-res to fly... or the footballs will fall off the roof and crush the children - won't somebody think of the children! - is idiotic. You aren't looking at a final design, with all the engineering and liability issues solved. You're looking at AN IDEA.

You can have wooden boardwalks if you're willing to pay for the upkeep (which the city clearly was not with the southbank riverwalk), or you can switch to brick or concrete sometime between today and AT LEAST 3 years from today when constructions starts. You can have a marina if you're willing to build a jetty or otherwise manipulate the flow of the river - I can't believe some of you think it is so impossible to have boats in water, like humankind has never docked a vessel. The landscaping choices can surely be changed at any time between now and the completion of all construction. Oh, and I have complete faith that there are quite enough personal injury attorneys in this town to make sure the liability issues surrounding footballs and rooftops can be managed - This net is "For The People."

Anything is possible if you can write a check (and Shad Khan can write checks). However, it would be irresponsible for Khan to pay to have somebody address every single minutia before he even presents his IDEA to the city.

[simms3]

^^^Ok.  Here's what we know of the vision:

Activate Bay St
Hotel
Office
Retail
Public space
Extend riverwalk and make it interesting
Tie development into surrounding context
Add indoor/rooftop football practice fields
Add potential to moor Naval vessel as museum

Render this purely conceptually.


Maybe some of us have seen this a few times already before.  The only major three differences between this proposal and the others are football fields, the look of the renderings, and space for Naval museum.  The Naval museum is not Khan's idea and has in fact been an idea punted around this website for many years, the lead being taken by another team looking for funding (perhaps from Khan?).  The football fields still feel weird, however, it makes sense given Khan and everything surrounding that.


I guess there are those of us who are tired of renderings with no substance.  I am not the only one here curious about who potential partners/funding sources are.  What's the ultimate mix of uses, and if there are options, what are they?  Timetable?  I know Khan doesn't own the land, but what he's pitching is not necessarily some crazy unique vision that hasn't been pitched before, and actually refined to a much greater extent twice before already.

So in a nutshell Khan's vision isn't all that different from anyone else's for the site.  Now let's talk implementation.  That's what I'm waiting for.  And what's the end goal?

Is Khan trying to get the land?  Listening to presentation, reading presentation it sounds like Khan pitched most of this to be developed by other groups.  So is he talking to anyone?  What's the deal?  If I were Khan, I'd want all of this to get done, but I might only want to be on the hook for football field end (where his yacht is also rendered to be docked).  Closest to stadium, and with a potential use tied into stadium/team already owned.

I'm used to seeing "visions" and these sort of presentations.  Generally they come with more specifics and more of a plan.  Announcements are made when parties are known and everyone can sync up their PR.