Metro Jacksonville

Quote(http://jacksonville.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/superphoto/tollroad.jpg)

Mandarin residents are just starting to see the massive changes in the landscape along their part of Interstate 295.
Thousands of trees have been torn down to make way for a SunPass toll lane — or "express lane" — between the Buckman Bridge and the I-95 interchange.

Unfortunately, Mandarin residents won't be able to use it.

"I'm really ambivalent about the express lane because I won't be able to use it anyway," said Leah Tincher, whose home in the Sweetwater neighborhood on Greenland Road now sits in view of the interstate.

Though many homes along the interstate are losing their natural barrier, along with the does, bucks and yearlings that could often be seen at night nibbling on the grass along the woodline southwest of the interchange, there will be no entrance points to the toll lanes anywhere in between — leaving Mandarin residents in the three traditional lanes of traffic.

"I'm just glad they're finally putting in a sound barrier," Tincher said.

After the last round of widening on that section of I-295, Tincher was mortified. "When I bought this house, you couldn't hear the interstate and you couldn't see the interstate," she said. "Now I can wave to people from my pool."

Full article: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2015-01-04/story/mandarian-residents-see-i-295-edge-ever-closer-homes-bypassed-benefit

Seeing that it is an express lane by design, I wouldnt see Mandarin residents getting any benefit beyond sound abatement.

Only people passing through.

Funny how money can be found for tolled express lanes but transit is left to find its own way.

This is such a waste of money - we don't have the traffic problems here that come close to Miami, the only other city to have these "lincoln lanes." They'll be empty most of the time really, and who in their right mind would use them at night since they'll still be tolled?

I'm surprised Mandarin residents didn't put up more of a fuss.

I'm also not sure I see a huge benefit here.

Those of us living on the edge of the interstate here in Riverside or in St. Nicholas or San Marco feel your pain. FDOT's primary concern with road construction appears to benefit mainly concrete and asphalt providers. Time to acknowledge that drivers only benefit in the short term. 

This has boondoggle written all over it.  The vast majority of people coming from the I-295 East Beltway are going to Mandarin and people coming from north and southbound I-95 won't even have access to it.  I drive this way 2X a week at rush hour and it only takes a few minutes to get through the traffic caused by 5 lanes going to 3 lanes in a 1/2 mile.  During non-rush hour there is more than ample road capacity.

Boondoggle: A boondoggle is a project that is considered a useless waste of both time and money, yet is often continued due to extraneous policy or political motivations.

I think the long-term goal is to add express lanes to the entire beltway. They had to start somewhere, and this was one of the only places where it makes sense for now.

Agree with all above. No required in JAX and wont be for sometime. Lived in ATL 12 years and drive through Washington/Baltimore area several times a year. We have no traffic problem here. Can someone educate me, can FDOT work on mass transit projects? Most collect fares/tolls just as toll lanes do.

It was sad to see all the wildlife displaced (and quite a few run over on I-295) by the construction of some lanes no one needs and few will use. 

That's not the only place where the trees are coming down. Here's a cell phone pic at the intersection of JTB and Bonneval Road. All the trees in the area are coming down as a part of the I-95/JTB project. Retention ponds will be built in their place.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/Roads-and-Bridges/Interstate-95-JTB-interchange/i-9KnDjdT/0/XL/IMG_20150107_082721-L.jpg)

Retention ponds are just the best!

Why do these all these projects always require so many retention ponds?

Quote from: iMarvin on January 07, 2015, 03:08:57 PM
Why do these all these projects always require so many retention ponds?

I have wondered this as well

Quote from: pierre on January 07, 2015, 04:04:21 PM

Quote from: iMarvin on January 07, 2015, 03:08:57 PM
Why do these all these projects always require so many retention ponds?

I have wondered this as well

So that the poluted highway runoff doesn't affect the surrounding areas and waterways.

Because when you replace the ground that can absorb water with something that doesnt,  especially in Florida,  you have  to remediate it.  Rather than have rain runoff just flow randomly, FDOT designs tiered retention ponds that can collect so much water before it flows through an exit grate into either another tiered retention area or into a purpose made natural area.

A good example of tiered retention is 295 East Beltway south of Baymeadows to Philips Highway. The forest to the west of 295 is owned by FDOT to assist with noise and water absorption along with retention ponds and specially graded runoff zones.

Otherwise all the runoff in this area would rush to the Durbin Creek Basin and cause flooding. 

So the ponds represent the first level of water management along highways. 

Admittedly in years past state DOT's were terrible at water runoff plans and made simple culverts. In the last 20 years there has been much advancement in water management in overall highway design.

Quote from: spuwho on January 07, 2015, 06:22:10 PM
Because when you replace the ground that can absorb water with something that doesnt,  especially in Florida,  you have  to remediate it.  Rather than have rain runoff just flow randomly, FDOT designs tiered retention ponds that can collect so much water before it flows through an exit grate into either another tiered retention area or into a purpose made natural area.

A good example of tiered retention is 295 East Beltway south of Baymeadows to Philips Highway. The forest to the west of 295 is owned by FDOT to assist with noise and water absorption along with retention ponds and specially graded runoff zones.

Otherwise all the runoff in this area would rush to the Durbin Creek Basin and cause flooding. 

So the ponds represent the first level of water management along highways. 

Admittedly in years past state DOT's were terrible at water runoff plans and made simple culverts. In the last 20 years there has been much advancement in water management in overall highway design.

The other critical need in Florida which is growing by the day is our freshwater well water levels are falling at an alarming rate, in the Oviedo area of Central Florida wells are pumping salt water. The ponds can serve as spuwho said, as a pollution control device, allowing for sediment and solar action to settle and clean up the water which is then released into the next series of ponds. Much of this water returns to our underground supply. In the World Golf Village, every pond is linked with another in series so by the time it is discharged into Trout, and 6-Mile Creek, it's as clean as the river.

Here's a bit more:
Retention basins are among the most frequently implemented storm water management systems. They are used to collect surface runoff and to improve the quality of water by natural processes such as sedimentation, decomposition, solar disinfection and soil filtration. In comparison to dry ponds (which hold runoff for a limited period of time and then release the stored water at once), retention basins constantly keep standing water, allowing the development of a new habitat. This also allows settled particles to be treated biologically (GDSDS 2005). Water from retention ponds can then be reused for groundwater recharge, irrigation or any other purpose, optionally requiring further treatment. As a natural system, retention basins do not need energy or high-tech appliances.

Giant Yawn.  8)

State Road 16 footprint " " Beltway ""  incursions will be particularly telling.

None of the proposed stormwater management facilities are retention ponds.

All of the ponds are wet detention.  They are designed to detain water temporarily to allow treatment to occur and will not retain water.

Why does it seem that all of these projects require large stormwater ponds?  It's because of Florida's extensive permitting requirements set forth by FDEP and the Water Management Districts.  As some have mentioned, they are necessary for both water quality and quantity (flooding) purposes.

Stormwater management is an ongoing and important topic of conversation in the civil engineering community, especially in Florida.

It's been the general opinion that FDOT, both statewide and district-wide has not done a very good job in explaining the purpose and need for Express Lanes (aka Managed Lanes).   And frankly, the conversation needs to be extended to include FHWA and DOT at the federal levels as they relate to transportation financing.

Whether it's FDOT's fault for the lack of information provided, OR the fact that the information CONTINUES to fall on deaf ears, there is, without a doubt, a real breakdown in communication.

This project is the first, and arguably, the most needed and corridor-ready, segment of I-295 which will function as piece of a future system of Express Lanes which are designed to only guarantee a specific level of service for motorists.  The project will be ADDING Express Lanes only, and will NOT be removing or converting ANY of the existing General Use Lanes.  Therefore, capacity will be ADDED to the corridor.  Without a doubt, this will benefit Orange Park motorists since they will be able to use the Express Lanes.  However, since the traffic that does use the Express Lanes won't use the General Use Lanes, this will reduce traffic on the General Use Lanes for Mandarin traffic.

This is such a misunderstood and important point of this project (and the future Express Lane segments of I-95/I-10/I-295). 

I strongly encourage the MJ community to start getting educated on these types of projects, because they ARE coming to Jacksonville over the next 10 years. It would be helpful if we could get a thread going first before a large article from Ennis is written without the benefit of all of the experience/knowledge/opinions/comments of the many informed MJ contributors here.

Better yet, it would be great for other informed experts to submit articles with their viewpoints on transportation solutions like this. We'd certainly run well put together articles on the front page. I personally believe it is great to have and showcase different perspectives on projects like this.

The concept definitely isn't new....just new to Jacksonville. Here are a few of the old threads.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=22633.0

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=20467.0

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=15341.0

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=15309.0

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-jan-i-295-express-lanes-get-ready-to-open-your-pocketbooks

The expense of building and maintaining roads are major reasons for managed lanes. They don't make a profit and there's not enough tax money coming in to keep building them like we have in the past. Managed lanes are an innovative pay-to-play option. They don't generate enough cash to cover the capital costs but they can cover the long term maintenance for these facilities, which reduces the overall burden on the taxpayer. Other examples are paying fares to ride transit and toll roads.

Although I know some in the transportation industry don't like the name, I've called them lexus lanes in the past and still consider them to be.  There is a good segment of the general population who can't afford to pay congestion pricing on a regular basis. However, I'm also supportive of charging an additional fare, tolls or whatever, to help fund expensive road projects.  If we're going to build them, some extra cash is going to be needed to maintain them. Ultimately, if you don't want to pay tolls, hear jet noise, train horns, etc., don't move to areas of town that place you in such a certain situation on a regular basis. So personal responsibility also plays an important role.

Quote from: southsider1015 on January 11, 2015, 10:00:24 AM
Whether it's FDOT's fault for the lack of information provided, OR the fact that the information CONTINUES to fall on deaf ears, there is, without a doubt, a real breakdown in communication.

This project is the first, and arguably, the most needed and corridor-ready, segment of I-295 which will function as piece of a future system of Express Lanes which are designed to only guarantee a specific level of service for motorists.  The project will be ADDING Express Lanes only, and will NOT be removing or converting ANY of the existing General Use Lanes.  Therefore, capacity will be ADDED to the corridor.  Without a doubt, this will benefit Orange Park motorists since they will be able to use the Express Lanes.  However, since the traffic that does use the Express Lanes won't use the General Use Lanes, this will reduce traffic on the General Use Lanes for Mandarin traffic.

This is such a misunderstood and important point of this project (and the future Express Lane segments of I-95/I-10/I-295).

I personally believe we should just be real and state to the public the financing dilemma of building and maintaining highways. They cost a pretty penny and we really should look into more sustainable long term solutions that possibly mean changing the way we've done things since WWII. Unfortunately, that's not the most politically expedient thing to do in a state where many have a vested interest in the road construction and land development industries. So I guess managed lanes will have to do for now.

As for creating extra capacity, I'm not sure it's a viable long term solution. As long as our land development form remains the same, any extra capacity created will eventually be consumed by new trips. So, 10-15 years down the road, we'll be debating the need to invest another billion or so in expanding once again. It's sort of like having a weight problem and choosing to buy bigger belts instead of changing our unhealthy eating habits. At some point, we have to put the beer and chips down, get off the couch and head to the gym.

Great response!  I wasn't trying to point fingers at you, lake, at least with my response.  But now looking at the threads you've posted, with the articles that you've written, and the responses in the threads, it seems that the conversation is stale, full of negatives, and hasn't seemed to help the dialogue (yet). 

"I-295 Express Lanes: Get Ready To Open Your Pocketbooks", "Lexus Lanes", and the somebloggingguy.com picture.

I feel like you have a good understanding of the facts about what's happening based on your threads and posts.  But the way it's being delivered is slanted negatively, and I don't think it's helping to spark dialogue and inform folks.  I get that the majority of your readers hate FDOT, hate roadway construction, hate taxes, hate pork barrel, and hate, hate, hate.  But the rhetoric is only fueling the anger of uninformed readers, and also those who are informed and might know better.

I haven't been around MJ much lately (too busy working on Lexus Lanes and wasting taxpayer dollars, but I'll start coming around more and contributing my informed opinions.

Oh, no hard feelings southsider1015. I'd love for you to submit a piece on this subject that we can publish and promote thought provoking conversation. It is true that the general public (not just MJ readers) tends to have a slanted view towards DOT in general. However, to be honest, it you look at the history of urban development in this country, you can't blame them.  Some major ills have taken place in the past, with respect to our urban development form. These have to be taken in consideration right along with the positives. If you think discussion on MJ is slanted, take a look at this recent thread from a global forum:

Midwest Cities Eviscerated By Expressways & "Urban Renewal": 1950 vs. Today sliders
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=214741

Better yet, check out the aerial sliders from this website that serves as the focal point for that SSP discussion:

http://iqc.ou.edu/2014/12/18/60yrssoutheast/

Quote60 Years of Urban Change: Southeast
by Shane Hampton | Dec 18, 2014 | Blog | 1 comment

60 years has made a big difference in the urban form of American cities. The most rapid change occurred during the mid-century urban renewal period that cleared large tracts of urban land for new highways, parking, and public facilities or housing projects. Fine-grained networks of streets and buildings on small lots were replaced with superblocks and megastructures. While the period did make way for impressive new projects in many cities, many of the scars are still unhealed.

We put together these sliders to show how cities have changed over half a century. In this post, we look at Southeastern cities in Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, Alabama, Louisiana, Kentucky, and Tennessee.

The last slider shown is Jacksonville. I'll admit I'm kind of honored that the University of Oklahoma Institute for Quality Communities utilized Metro Jacksonville as a source for background historical information for their study. Nevertheless, the aerials of 60 years of change for cities all across America, provide a glimpse into why the general public's opinion has come to be what it is in 2014. There probably will never be a general lovefest with FDOT but that shouldn't be any DOT's primary concern anyway. Being honest, working the extra mile to integrate mobility needs with community visioning and continuing to strive to better stewards of public tax dollars is about the best way to go.

Like you, I work in the transportation industry, just from the planning side of things. It's just when these things get to my desk, I tend to push hard and heavy for context sensitive solutions that integrate transportation infrastructure investment and surrounding land use policy. But at the end of the day, I tend to be a realist who'll let the statistical data and community opinion to determine the final answer.

Btw, I do not believe people here or in general, hate taxes. With the BJP, local taxpayers have shown in the past that they are willing to pay a little more for things viewed as a quality-of-life benefits. Roads, libraries, mass transit, parks, schools, etc. all fall into this category. From my experience, both as a public activist and a transportation consultant, what the public really doesn't like is being railroaded into certain solutions. This is something I've seen happen several times in the transportation industry and it really doesn't have to be that way.

Personally, I have no problem with the theory of managed lanes, lexus lanes, etc. (the name really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things) but them being forced on communities across the state could be a major contributor of the public engagement problem. When true public engagement takes place, sugar coated sales jobs aren't needed and we will most likely end up in situations where the one-size fits all solutions aren't always the best answer to transportation problems.

When real engagement and partnership is in effect, perhaps managed lanes ends up as being the desired solution for one community and something else ends up as the end solution for another.

A year or two ago, I had the opportunity to hear the former FDOT secretary come to Jax and act like a big baby in the response to local community opposition regarding the Outer Beltway. He basically made a threat that that if we didn't allow toll road, then he'd take his DOT money to other areas of the state that would. Then I watched the local politicos literally get on their knees, bow to the dude and ask for forgiveness. I've also been witness to other situations were demands have been made that automobile capacity would not be reduced in favor of other modes......regardless of what communities living with the everyday negative impacts of projects railroaded down their throats had to say. This not the proper way to engage people and it is the true type of activity that negatively impacts public perspective on some projects.....even when they are good ones.

The fact of the matter is that FDOT (and DOT, for the matter) is a government agency  which spends taxpayer money for something (infrastructure) that this country, as a whole, takes for serious granted.  So, regardless of their actions, FDOT is casted in a negative light because of the complete mistrust of our government and its other bureaucracies.  Let's move on to other topics because this issue deserves its own thread to really hash out.

In response to the so-called ills that have taken place by FDOT on urban development, my thoughts are:  What is the mission of FDOT?  Is it to form the the urban core of Jacksonville, and other cities around the state?  No, isn't this COJ's job?

From the FDOT website:  "FDOT's primary statutory responsibility is to coordinate the planning and development of a safe, viable, and balanced state transportation system serving all regions of the state, and to assure the compatibility of all components, including multimodal facilities. A multimodal transportation system combines two or more modes of movement of people or goods. Florida's transportation system includes roadway, air, rail, sea, spaceports, bus transit, and bicycle and pedestrian facilities."

I don't see words such as urban or development.  Sure, transportation is a feature of the urban core, but its one feature.  We can't ignore that FDOT has an impact on urban development, of course.  IMHO, FDOT, due to its budget and visibility, has become THE target when blaming someone for our cities issues with urban development. 

Moving on, no one likes taxes.  Period.  We're a capitalist society that promotes self-interest, and taxes, although necessary for our civilization, is simply unpopular.  It's SO easy to try to point our government waste when we THINK we see it.  "Building a road that I'll never drive on?  Waste.  Widening on the Westside?  Waste.  Lexus Lanes that I can't access on I-295?  Waste."  Kudos to COJ for getting BJP and other gas tax funding approved.  It literally shocks me that this is even feasible in a city like Jacksonville.

Another misunderstanding of the Express Lanes is the purpose of the dynamic pricing of the tolls.  The primary goal of dynamic pricing is NOT to fund the construction and maintenance of the facility.  It's to GUARANTEE a certain level of service (flow of traffic) to get from point A to point B.  With General Use Lanes, a level of service cannot be guaranteed because there aren't any controls to change the demands of the facility.  With a controlled price point, motorists CHOOSE to either use either lanes based on the price.  Therefore, some drivers will CHOOSE to use a facility when it makes financial sense to do so.

Given the purpose and responsibility of FDOT, the available funding that the current revenue streams provide, and the complete ignorance of the voting public, it only makes sense that Express Lanes are the only viable solution. 

Let's save FCOB/FCX for another thread, shall we?  It's a different discussion that does involve FDOT obviously, but one that doesn't necessarily add to the conversation here.

Quote from: southsider1015 on January 11, 2015, 04:48:11 PM
The fact of the matter is that FDOT (and DOT, for the matter) is a government agency  which spends taxpayer money for something (infrastructure) that this country, as a whole, takes for serious granted.  So, regardless of their actions, FDOT is casted in a negative light because of the complete mistrust of our government and its other bureaucracies.  Let's move on to other topics because this issue deserves its own thread to really hash out.

FDOT's image, like any government agency's can be improved over time. However, I wouldn't go as far as blaming all negativity received on other bureaucracies. No entity is perfect and complete without blame.

QuoteIn response to the so-called ills that have taken place by FDOT on urban development, my thoughts are:  What is the mission of FDOT?  Is it to form the the urban core of Jacksonville, and other cities around the state?  No, isn't this COJ's job?

From the FDOT website:  "FDOT's primary statutory responsibility is to coordinate the planning and development of a safe, viable, and balanced state transportation system serving all regions of the state, and to assure the compatibility of all components, including multimodal facilities. A multimodal transportation system combines two or more modes of movement of people or goods. Florida's transportation system includes roadway, air, rail, sea, spaceports, bus transit, and bicycle and pedestrian facilities."

No argument from me on responsibility. I'd love to see the coordination and development of a safe, viable, and balanced transportation network. Heck, I'm a huge advocate of this responsibility. But I'm also a realist. Balanced doesn't mean forcing things into communities, regardless of whether they fit or not. Also, looking at our existing roadway design standards and bicycle/pedestrian death rates as compared to the rest of the country, I'd say we have a lot to improve upon and we....especially FDOT....can do better.  The day we reach a properly balanced state transportation system will be a day of great image enhancement not only for FDOT, but Florida all across the board.

QuoteI don't see words such as urban or development.  Sure, transportation is a feature of the urban core, but its one feature.  We can't ignore that FDOT has an impact on urban development, of course.  IMHO, FDOT, due to its budget and visibility, has become THE target when blaming someone for our cities issues with urban development.

My focus isn't so much on sugar coating or burning down FDOT's image. To be honest, I could ultimately care less. Whether it's FDOT, VDOT, GDOT, JTA, COJ, JaxPort or whoever, all I desire coordinated, cost effective and wise investment of public tax dollars that results in an enhanced quality of life for the communities subsidizing the operations.

QuoteMoving on, no one likes taxes.  Period.  We're a capitalist society that promotes self-interest, and taxes, although necessary for our civilization, is simply unpopular.  It's SO easy to try to point our government waste when we THINK we see it.  "Building a road that I'll never drive on?  Waste.  Widening on the Westside?  Waste.  Lexus Lanes that I can't access on I-295?  Waste."  Kudos to COJ for getting BJP and other gas tax funding approved.  It literally shocks me that this is even feasible in a city like Jacksonville.

Initiatives like BJP or MAPS in Oklahoma City passed because taxpayers saw a benefit in making the investment. As in the case of Greenlight Pinellas and TSPLOT, when they don't they fail.

Quote"Building a road that I'll never drive on?  Waste.  Widening on the Westside?  Waste.  Lexus Lanes that I can't access on I-295?  Waste."

Not all taxpayers take this narrow-minded view. I suspect, most taxpayers don't think a second thought about transportation infrastructure. As long as they have a job, a home, well feed kids and routine trash collection, etc. they're fine. I for one, try to evaluate every project on an individual basis. Some projects, like the Outer Beltway are more politically motivated than actually needed to resolve transportation issues and others, such as the I-95/JTB Improvements will actually improve traffic flow. That's just the world we live in.

QuoteAnother misunderstanding of the Express Lanes is the purpose of the dynamic pricing of the tolls.  The primary goal of dynamic pricing is NOT to fund the construction and maintenance of the facility.  It's to GUARANTEE a certain level of service (flow of traffic) to get from point A to point B.  With General Use Lanes, a level of service cannot be guaranteed because there aren't any controls to change the demands of the facility.  With a controlled price point, motorists CHOOSE to either use either lanes based on the price.  Therefore, some drivers will CHOOSE to use a facility when it makes financial sense to do so.

Sure that's one of the goals but it's debatable, I'll let it rest though. Looking at ROI, I'd rather have managed lanes than the old "viable" solution of widening to 8-10 lanes.

QuoteGiven the purpose and responsibility of FDOT, the available funding that the current revenue streams provide, and the complete ignorance of the voting public, it only makes sense that Express Lanes are the only viable solution.

I assume you're just talking about I-295's managed lanes in Mandarin? However, if so, I don't know why the ignorance of the voting public matters. This is one of those projects where I'm not aware of the public demanding a regular widening or express lanes. In recent years, we've had quite a few projects pop up out of thin air across the state. So, I wouldn't get too caught up over a random article where the newspaper writer most likely doesn't understand the nature of the project either. Perhaps this is an area where FDOT can improve its image over time (assuming it's a real concern)? It's an easy thing to do and a solution that should be viable with current revenue streams.

My voter ignorance comment is more directed and tied to infrastructure funding in all levels of government.

New projects popping up are likely based on leadership decisions made at the top of the food chain.  Without a doubt, with the relection of Scott, FDOTs budget will continue to grow.  Scott is dedicated to spending more money on infrastructure in Florida, and as the needs of the state grow, we'll have the funding to address our problems.   The 5-year program is continusouly updated as projects are needed before the crises occur.  We no longer need to wait years and years to see our tax dollars at work.

I'm just hoping we can change some of our design standards sooner rather than later, so that money can be spent on projects that actually do better balance the state's transportation network. The community literally had to fight to get the bike/ped components added to I-95/JTB and Fuller Warren Bridge projects. With proper community engagement and coordination, early in the process, it shouldn't have to be that way. Some of the districts south of us are setting the type of precedence that should allow us to easily follow.

I would agree that FDOT has done an abysmal job at explaining what these lanes are and how they are going to function.  The public involvement person I've been seeing on the news either has no idea how the lanes will function or is incapable of effectively conveying how they will function.  Its really not that hard.  Maybe they should make a video or something like they have done with other projects. 

QuoteThis project is the first, and arguably, the most needed and corridor-ready, segment of I-295 which will function as piece of a future system of Express Lanes which are designed to only guarantee a specific level of service for motorists.  The project will be ADDING Express Lanes only, and will NOT be removing or converting ANY of the existing General Use Lanes.  Therefore, capacity will be ADDED to the corridor.  Without a doubt, this will benefit Orange Park motorists since they will be able to use the Express Lanes.  However, since the traffic that does use the Express Lanes won't use the General Use Lanes, this will reduce traffic on the General Use Lanes for Mandarin traffic.

I will only partially agree with you on this point.  This project, viewed by itself, probably won't have a huge effect.  That said, it is obviously a cog in a larger wheel that, when viewed collectively with the other managed lane projects on I-295, could have a real impact.  This project would have been much more effective had it extended across the Buckman past 17 however, that would require widening the Buckman which would increase costs exponentially (although it is quite clear that this project will be a catalyst for the eventual widening of the bridge).

QuoteI'm just hoping we can change some of our design standards sooner rather than later, so that money can be spent on projects that actually do better balance the state's transportation network. The community literally had to fight to get the bike/ped components added to I-95/JTB and Fuller Warren Bridge projects.

I realize that FDOT's mission statement says that it is multmodal- let's be real though, its all about roads and it always has been (i.e. the Department of Roads) and it will continue to be about roads. Look at how hard it was to get the ped overpass on the Fuller Warren.  That was only done after massive public outcry and is only few million bucks. 

Quote from: cline on January 12, 2015, 09:28:46 AM
I will only partially agree with you on this point.  This project, viewed by itself, probably won't have a huge effect.  That said, it is obviously a cog in a larger wheel that, when viewed collectively with the other managed lane projects on I-295, could have a real impact.  This project would have been much more effective had it extended across the Buckman past 17 however, that would require widening the Buckman which would increase costs exponentially (although it is quite clear that this project will be a catalyst for the eventual widening of the bridge).

Assuming a developing a balanced transportation network was really a priority, in the event express lanes crossed the Buckman, they'd become a prefect transit corridor between Orange Park/Clay County and the Southside. Since we're spending all the cash to widen, might as well throw in a  parallel shared use facility (aka. Suncoast Parkway Trail or New River Greenway as a part of the I-595 Express Lane projects).

Sort of like, give the impacted communities an amenity they can actually use, which can also serve as a mobility alternative to keep some of the short auto trips off the highways.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/892390364_SUv74-M.jpg)

(http://www.tampabay.com/resources/images/dti/rendered/2011/03/clwbiker032311_167744a_8col.jpg)

(http://www.tampabay.com/resources/images/dti/rendered/2011/02/a4s_suncoast020511_161426a_8col.jpg)

Correct me if I'm wrong lake, but isn't the Suncoast trail funded by someone other than the highway (someone other than FDOT?). If that is the case, who would be the one to fund it here for us?

Quote from: thelakelander on January 12, 2015, 09:42:18 AM

Quote from: cline on January 12, 2015, 09:28:46 AM
I will only partially agree with you on this point.  This project, viewed by itself, probably won't have a huge effect.  That said, it is obviously a cog in a larger wheel that, when viewed collectively with the other managed lane projects on I-295, could have a real impact.  This project would have been much more effective had it extended across the Buckman past 17 however, that would require widening the Buckman which would increase costs exponentially (although it is quite clear that this project will be a catalyst for the eventual widening of the bridge).

Assuming a developing a balanced transportation network was really a priority, in the event express lanes crossed the Buckman, they'd become a prefect transit corridor between Orange Park/Clay County and the Southside. Since we're spending all the cash to widen, might as well throw in a  parallel shared use facility (aka. Suncoast Parkway Trail or New River Greenway as a part of the I-595 Express Lane projects).

Sort of like, give the impacted communities an amenity they can actually use, which can also serve as a mobility alternative to keep some of the short auto trips off the highways.

I think that's a great idea.  Are there any JTA routes that utilize I-295?  If so, would they be able to use the express lanes free of charge?

Quote from: coredumped on January 12, 2015, 09:50:07 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong lake, but isn't the Suncoast trail funded by someone other than the highway (someone other than FDOT?). If that is the case, who would be the one to fund it here for us?

I don't know about the history of Suncoast Trail funding but the New River Greenway in Broward County was funded by FDOT as a part of the I-595 Express Lane project. So there's precedence already.

Quote from: cline on January 12, 2015, 10:02:14 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on January 12, 2015, 09:42:18 AM

Quote from: cline on January 12, 2015, 09:28:46 AM
I will only partially agree with you on this point.  This project, viewed by itself, probably won't have a huge effect.  That said, it is obviously a cog in a larger wheel that, when viewed collectively with the other managed lane projects on I-295, could have a real impact.  This project would have been much more effective had it extended across the Buckman past 17 however, that would require widening the Buckman which would increase costs exponentially (although it is quite clear that this project will be a catalyst for the eventual widening of the bridge).

Assuming a developing a balanced transportation network was really a priority, in the event express lanes crossed the Buckman, they'd become a prefect transit corridor between Orange Park/Clay County and the Southside. Since we're spending all the cash to widen, might as well throw in a  parallel shared use facility (aka. Suncoast Parkway Trail or New River Greenway as a part of the I-595 Express Lane projects).

Sort of like, give the impacted communities an amenity they can actually use, which can also serve as a mobility alternative to keep some of the short auto trips off the highways.

I think that's a great idea.  Are there any JTA routes that utilize I-295?  If so, would they be able to use the express lanes free of charge?

I believe JTA would have to pay to use the express lanes. I think that's how it works with Broward County Transit and I-595's express lanes.
Also, people say we hate taxes but this is basically how the BJP got passed. It included a mix of things and items that the majority of the local population identified as being beneficial to them.

I don't think its so much that people hate taxes.  I think people get bent when we say we're going to raise taxes but nothing is said about what exactly the increase in taxes is going to pay for.  You're right about the BJP.  People voted for it because it spelled out exactly where this tax increase was going towards and those things included a mix of all sorts of different projects that were specifically called out.  It wasn't just "we're going to spend some money on some transportation project and some cultural projects and some whatever whatever".  People could get behind it knowing there was going to be a new library built or a new baseball park or even a new overpass at Kernan and Atlantic or whatever.

The Suncoast Trail was constructed and is maintained by Florida's Turnpike Enterprise (a subset of FDOT).

As to the question of buses in express lanes, they are allowed on I-95 in Miami because of the way those lanes were built.  Elsewhere in the state, FDOT has balked at allowing them in...and at a minimum, are requiring they pay a fee to use the lanes.

Quote from: tufsu1 on January 12, 2015, 10:59:16 AM
The Suncoast Trail was constructed and is maintained by Florida's Turnpike Enterprise (a subset of FDOT).

As to the question of buses in express lanes, they are allowed on I-95 in Miami because of the way those lanes were built.  Elsewhere in the state, FDOT has balked at allowing them in...and at a minimum, are requiring they pay a fee to use the lanes.

If FDOT really wants a multimodal transportation system then they should embrace the idea of public transit using the express lanes (for free).  Less cars on the road and will keep the LOS up on the non-free lanes.

Quote from: cline on January 12, 2015, 11:13:57 AM

Quote from: tufsu1 on January 12, 2015, 10:59:16 AM
The Suncoast Trail was constructed and is maintained by Florida's Turnpike Enterprise (a subset of FDOT).

As to the question of buses in express lanes, they are allowed on I-95 in Miami because of the way those lanes were built.  Elsewhere in the state, FDOT has balked at allowing them in...and at a minimum, are requiring they pay a fee to use the lanes.

If FDOT really wants a multimodal transportation system then they should embrace the idea of public transit using the express lanes (for free).  Less cars on the road and will keep the LOS up on the non-free lanes.

My understanding of this issue is that large transit buses will potentially slow traffic flow, similar to semi-tractor trailers and other typically slower moving vehicles.  Plus, transit should be providing more local trips, rather than larger regional trips, so the lack of access to individual exits makes it useless.  Again, just my understanding of it. 

Hmm.

(http://595express.info/img/express-bus.jpg)

(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee19/mrjones12345/595x-mapf.jpg)

Broward County Transit is running buses between their suburbs and downtown Fort Lauderdale on I-595's recently completed managed lanes.  In Miami-Dade, they do the same on I-95.

(http://www.95express.com/static/admin/js/ckfinder/userfiles/images/95-homesm.jpg) (http://www.ops.fhwa.dot.gov/congestionpricing/value_pricing/pubs_reports/rpttocongress/images/fig_8.jpg)
(http://www.1800234ride.com/static/sitefiles/images/sfcs-interior-exp.jpg)
I-95 Express Bus  - Miami

I figure the same scenario would be possible between residential heavy Clay County and the commercial dominated Southside. The bus would be making the same trip as the individual riders using the managed lanes. Such a transit route would be more effective then taking a bus from Clay up to DT, transferring and then from DT down to the Southside.

Quote from: thelakelander on January 15, 2015, 09:24:00 PM
Hmm.

(http://595express.info/img/express-bus.jpg)

(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee19/mrjones12345/595x-mapf.jpg)

Broward County Transit is running buses between their suburbs and downtown Fort Lauderdale on I-595's recently completed managed lanes.  In Miami-Dade, they do the same on I-95.

(http://www.95express.com/static/admin/js/ckfinder/userfiles/images/95-homesm.jpg) (http://www.ops.fhwa.dot.gov/congestionpricing/value_pricing/pubs_reports/rpttocongress/images/fig_8.jpg)
(http://www.1800234ride.com/static/sitefiles/images/sfcs-interior-exp.jpg)
I-95 Express Bus  - Miami

I figure the same scenario would be possible between residential heavy Clay County and the commercial dominated Southside. The bus would be making the same trip as the individual riders using the managed lanes. Such a transit route would be more effective then taking a bus from Clay up to DT, transferring and then from DT down to the Southside.

Thanks.  I agree, that sounds like a nice idea.  Is JTA up to it though?  And what sort of ridership would we see feom Clay County?

Also, does Broward County Transit get charged?

Not sure about JTA. I believe BCT pays FDOT.

People (probably none of those that went the the public hearings) are upset:

QuoteSome residents in Mandarin are upset with the Florida Department of Transportation after construction work on a five-mile stretch of Interstate 295 led to the destruction of a large number of trees.

Groups are calling for action by FDOT to address concern arising from projects impacting landscape and the Mandarin community.

"The noise is so loud we can barely hear ourselves and we are within one or two feet of each other," said Susan Caven, president of Scenic Jacksonville Inc. "What if you lived here? What if you lived along the 5-mile road of 295 and this is what you get?

Construction along a 5.7-mile stretch of I-295, just east of the Buckman Bridge and just west of I-95, has locals angry because FDOT has knocked down hundreds of trees, leaving an empty field eyesore..

"They have worked so hard for so long to keep a look in Mandarin," Caven said. "And they are so proud of their trees and to come and just mow them down is such a blow."

The current six lanes are being expanded to ten travel lanes, including toll lanes. Heidi Chanatry has lived in Mandarin since 1985 and said the cleared land is devastating.

"It was shocking; it was heartbreaking to see what they had done," Chanatry said.

Jacksonville Environmental and Civic Organizations say they want FDOT to:

   * Fully mitigate for the environmental damage created by the project
   * Ensure the new sound walls will be green and decorative. 
   * Ensure all revenues from the toll scheme stay in Jacksonville.
   * Ensure landscaping plans are prepared and are available for review at the front end of future toll projects.
   * Undertake a closer review of the need for toll lanes


FDOT said it will consider the community's complaints.

"We will take the input and our folks will look at it and do what we can with it and we listen to the concerns," FDOT spokesman Ron Tittle said. "We are concerned."

Tittle said FDOT did hold a public meeting and shared its plans with about 100 people who showed up.

The project just started and is supposed to be complete in 2016.

http://www.news4jax.com/news/tree-removal-angers-mandarin-residents/31010020

This is why it's important to attend public meetings. The plans on display would have shown what is being built now. So if these residents had attended, they could have possiblyaltered the final design to their benefit.

Quote from: thelakelander on January 30, 2015, 01:47:16 PM
This is why it's important to attend public meetings. The plans on display would have shown what is being built now. So if these residents had attended, they could have possiblyaltered the final design to their benefit.

Yes.  This project is nothing new but that's kind of how it always goes.  People don't tend to care until the dirt starts moving. That said, they're constructing noise walls so while the noise is loud now it will be temporary until they are constructed.  Those suggestions should have been presented to FDOT long ago however. It is pretty shocking to see the different look now that the trees are gone.  That said, it doesn't change the fact that many of the homes were build within a couple hundred feet of an interstate- trees or no trees.

Yeah. The I-95/JTB interchange looks completely different without its trees, as well.

Mandarin had (and still does further down San Jose) a nice feel to it with all the trees for still being in town. You don't get that look in Southside. It's a shame these trees are gone, and for such a useless reason too.

^ just moved to the far southern end of Mandarin and I agree. The bike rides and jogs are pretty nice around that area with all of the scenery, it's just the getting there part. San Jose and 295 are not my friends. I take 17 to avoid the congestion and it's slightly faster some days.

I am very impressed with what Tommy Hazzouri posted on his campaign Facebook page yesterday about this.

https://www.facebook.com/tommyforjax?fref=nf

Quote from: tufsu1 on January 31, 2015, 11:04:02 AM
I am very impressed with what Tommy Hazzouri posted on his campaign Facebook page yesterday about this.

https://www.facebook.com/tommyforjax?fref=nf

While I don't necessarily agree with the project, this outrage would have been more effective during the planning process rather than after construction has begun. 

I agree with what one of the comments said on his FB page- Nobody said a damn thing about the walls and destruction of homes and trees for the Overland Bridge project. 

maybe we have hit a tipping point.  There has been a whole lot of road construction in this town that is affecting natural areas and buffers.  9B, Outer Beltway, I-295, and now the JTB interchange.

Quote from: tufsu1 on January 31, 2015, 05:46:56 PM
maybe we have hit a tipping point.

If you mean starting to intrude on residents with some clout who are against a project, then yeah...  maybe.

I wish that were true, but contracts have been signed, money has changed hands. There's no stopping this.

^Pretty much. If you don't get actively engaged early on, you most likely won't end up with a final design solution that you prefer. There's no reason, Mandarin couldn't have ended up with a couple of extra perks like Riverside and San Marco did with the Overland and Fuller Warren Bridge projects. All it would have taken is getting active early.

It seems like this was a done deal before anybody knew about it.

^ it did seem to sneak up on everyone. Didn't realize there was a project underway until the trees started coming down.

The first public hearing (that I can find) was almost 2 years ago, back in Feb 2013:

http://www.news4jax.com/news/FDOT-to-discuss-I-295-toll-express-lanes/18497596

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3030767292_ggHD6GP-M.jpg)
Image of project from a Jan. 2014 MJ article.

This project has been discussed for a while. The widening project was listed in the 2035 Long Range Transportation Plan (LRTP), which was adopted in 2009. You can see it on the LRTP Cost Feasible project map on the last page of this document:

http://www.northfloridatpo.com/images/uploads/general/LRTP_summbrochure.pdf

There are a few threads and articles about this project that have popped up on this website as well:

(http://jax-cdn.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/story_slideshow_thumb/TollLanesOn295.jpg)
Image from a 2012 TU article: http://jacksonville.com/news/florida/2012-06-14/story/toll-roads-returning-jacksonville-2017. "B" ended up not being feasible and that money was switched to the go to the widening of the Fuller Warren Bridge about a year ago. When we caught wind last December, we immediately lobbied to get a share use path included to connect Riverside and San Marco.

June 2012
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=15309.0

January 2014
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-jan-i-295-express-lanes-get-ready-to-open-your-pocketbooks

Unfortunately, we tend to over look the critical period of shaping projects like this. Based on the information FDOT made available for their public meetings, on their website, and local media articles, I could have told you five years ago that those trees were coming down.

Looking at the 2035 Cost Feasible Plan project map from 2009, the trees will probably be coming down for every other project that made the list.....once money is available to actually construct them. It's too late to get the trees back for Mandarin but hopefully this project serves as a wake up call for residents. If we can get active early on, solutions that preserve the natural landscape, while serving more modes than just the automobile, may end up being built more often.

Quote from: thelakelander on February 02, 2015, 11:16:50 AM
It's too late to get the trees back for Mandarin but hopefully this project serves as a wake up call for residents.

You're right,  it is too late for Mandarin, my hope now is that this will be a total failure and the project is abandoned for the rest of the beltway before the first shovel digs elsewhere.

Jax is 1 of the 4 large cities in the state, and I put it at the bottom of the list in terms of traffic issues, these lanes are not necessary.

Quote from: thelakelander on February 02, 2015, 11:16:50 AM

(http://jax-cdn.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/story_slideshow_thumb/TollLanesOn295.jpg)

Will the pay lanes in Image B ever be used?

Ah yes, I do remember reading about this a while ago -  thought it was proposed but never finalized.

I know we're talking about what could've been done to  keep the natural barriers, but what other amenities could've been added to the 295 project? People don't exactly walk or bike out here too much. At least not to get around like they do in the urban core.  The distances are just too far/traffic is too heavy. 

I do believe a shared use path paralleling I-295 would have gotten decent recreational use in Mandarin. There's quite a few neighborhoods, parks and schools that could have been possibly connected. Even without something infrastructure related, perhaps the amenity could have been a roadway design that preserved the trees.

Lake, there are concepts that propose to build a continuous, longitudinal bridge with pier columns located in the mediam, elevating the managed lanes above the general use lanes.  This is only solution which would have saved the trees, due to the number of lanes proposed.  so instead of building out, it's building up. 

It's a crazy expensive solution, and it makes almost zero sense to save trees and spend another $100 million. 

Also, up next, I-295 Express from 9B to JTB.  The Design-Build process is just now kicking off.  The original concepts are public information, and could be requested and reported on MJ. Hint hint hint. :)

Mandarin is inner city. I recall the 1970's euphoria over it's development potential.Here we are.

Mandarin is inner city? I don't think it could be further. In fact, if it was any further it would be out side of the county. It's not even in the beltway.

At any rate, they could have included plans like the bike trail in Tampa.

Quote from: southsider1015 on February 02, 2015, 08:08:46 PM

Also, up next, I-295 Express from 9B to JTB.  The Design-Build process is just now kicking off.  The original concepts are public information, and could be requested and reported on MJ. Hint hint hint. :)

Uh yea...the next phases that we have already been discussing here? Feel free to post them. Have a feeling they will be very similar to the plans for phase 1.

QuoteLake, there are concepts that propose to build a continuous, longitudinal bridge with pier columns located in the mediam, elevating the managed lanes above the general use lanes.  This is only solution which would have saved the trees, due to the number of lanes proposed.  so instead of building out, it's building up. 

Are you referring to the original BRT plans down 95 which showed that? I don't recall plans showing elevated managed lanes on I-295.

I'm pretty sure we've been discussing the Mandarin section (Buckman to I-95).

I'm referring to the next phase, 9B to JTB.  It's a similar typical section: 4 managed lanes in the tangent segment, with ingress/egress at 9B and JTB.  The people who use the Gate Pkwy and Baymeadows exits won't be able to use the managed lanes, similar to the Mandarin residents.  Sound walls are proposed, and some trees will be removed.

No, I'm not referring to BRT at all.  You haven't seen plans because no one has wasted time drawing the plans.  But it IS a cinception that is discussed and thought through during the PD&E process, especially if ROW is an issue.  I just thought I'd bring it up since technically it would solve the tree problem.

^ I have a better solution.....at some point we need to STOP widening our highways!

I'd love to see the data that supports the demand for 4 toll express lanes on I-295 from SR 13 to I-95....oh wait, that's right.....the demand isn't there....which is why FDOT will start by striping 2 of the lanes out and charging a minimal price (like $0.25).

Quote from: southsider1015 on February 03, 2015, 06:58:56 AM
I'm pretty sure we've been discussing the Mandarin section (Buckman to I-95).

I'm referring to the next phase, 9B to JTB.  It's a similar typical section: 4 managed lanes in the tangent segment, with ingress/egress at 9B and JTB.  The people who use the Gate Pkwy and Baymeadows exits won't be able to use the managed lanes, similar to the Mandarin residents.  Sound walls are proposed, and some trees will be removed.

No, I'm not referring to BRT at all.  You haven't seen plans because no one has wasted time drawing the plans.  But it IS a cinception that is discussed and thought through during the PD&E process, especially if ROW is an issue.  I just thought I'd bring it up since technically it would solve the tree problem.

I think we've been talking about the Mandarin section but also in the context of the overall 3 segment managed lanes project. 

The reason I brought up the BRT elevated section is because that was the original plan- I believe drawings were made.  I know I've seen a typical section somewhere.  It was rightfully shot down.  But yes, no worries about trees with that thing. 

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 03, 2015, 08:33:01 AM
^ I have a better solution.....at some point we need to STOP widening our highways!

Very interesting solution..... ;)

Not going to happen as long as politicians can claim road widening as "job creators".

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 03, 2015, 08:33:01 AM
^ I have a better solution.....at some point we need to STOP widening our highways!

I'd love to see the data that supports the demand for 4 toll express lanes on I-295 from SR 13 to I-95....oh wait, that's right.....the demand isn't there....which is why FDOT will start by striping 2 of the lanes out and charging a minimal price (like $0.25).

http://www.northfloridaexpress.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/I-295PERDraftFinal.pdf (http://www.northfloridaexpress.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/I-295PERDraftFinal.pdf)

You're welcome.

"Projected" demand. By whom,and under what assumption?

Quote from: southsider1015 on February 03, 2015, 07:05:57 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 03, 2015, 08:33:01 AM
^ I have a better solution.....at some point we need to STOP widening our highways!

I'd love to see the data that supports the demand for 4 toll express lanes on I-295 from SR 13 to I-95....oh wait, that's right.....the demand isn't there....which is why FDOT will start by striping 2 of the lanes out and charging a minimal price (like $0.25).

http://www.northfloridaexpress.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/I-295PERDraftFinal.pdf (http://www.northfloridaexpress.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/I-295PERDraftFinal.pdf)

You're welcome.

you do realize the PER has little to no traffic demand data in it right?

also note that the PER shows only 1 express lane lane per direction...guess you weren't around for the discussion that showed demand only for an extra 2 lanes....and only if they were minimally tolled.

these lanes are bound to fail because they have to end 2 miles before I-95 going eastbound...which of course will set up the argument requiring a left side exit onto 95 so the express lanes can function properly.

FDOT is intent on building these things all over the state

45 minutes to drive 19 miles this morning, no wrecks either. Just general congestion.  Not the worst in the country I know but the pain on 295 is real.

295 is only a portion of the problem though, (for my route) 95 north was slow from 295 up past University, then again past Emerson all the way into downtown. Are they going to slap 4 extra express lanes onto that route too?

Nothing against the people who chose to live out there, but at some point we just have to get smarter about managing our traffic and sprawl. It kind of sucks that we're continually widening roads on the outskirts - and now adding Lexus lanes - when we have so many transportation problems in the city core.

A few months ago Liberty Street flooded, as it does all the time even when there's no rain, and the puddle destroyed my engine. Our urban core infrastructure literally killed my car. We can't maintain even the basics, and yet we continually find billions of dollars for new roads in the outskirts.

Quote from: David on February 04, 2015, 09:39:16 AM
45 minutes to drive 19 miles this morning, no wrecks either. Just general congestion.  Not the worst in the country I know but the pain on 295 is real.

295 is only a portion of the problem though, (for my route) 95 north was slow from 295 up past University, then again past Emerson all the way into downtown. Are they going to slap 4 extra express lanes onto that route too?

and therein lies the problem....there are no plans to widen I-95 into town....and because you have to get from the left side express lane on I-295 to the right side flyover ramp, the merge/weave problem will negate the benefits of the express lane....it is set up for failure!

Yep. It sounds like the I-10/I-95 interchange all over again.

The best thing for I-295 would have been another river crossing north of Green Cove Springs. Half of the perceived traffic problems are probably significantly influenced by drivers attempting to cross the river. Considering our growth patterns the last few decades, this means it's either the Buckman or the Fuller Warren. This is one area where the First Coast Expressway could have helped. Unfortunately, some strange type of way, we're going to end up replacing the Shands Bridge instead.

Quote from: thelakelander on February 04, 2015, 12:41:19 PM
The best thing for I-295 would have been another river crossing north of Green Cove Springs. Half of the perceived traffic problems are probably significantly influenced by drivers attempting to cross the river. Considering our growth patterns the last few decades, this means it's either the Buckman or the Fuller Warren. This is one area where the First Coast Expressway could have helped. Unfortunately, some strange type of way, we're going to end up replacing the Shands Bridge instead.

that would be because St. Joe (Rivertown) blocked it

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 04, 2015, 11:52:47 AM
and therein lies the problem....there are no plans to widen I-95 into town....and because you have to get from the left side express lane on I-295 to the right side flyover ramp, the merge/weave problem will negate the benefits of the express lane....it is set up for failure! so the kids of the contractors doing the work will have a steady paycheck until their retirement as well.

Fixed.  [thumbup]

from another thread:

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on January 22, 2015, 01:43:22 PM
...  The genius of their plan is that they can then use their own poorly designed interchanges as a perfect example to explain the need for new highways... 

Creating a need is lesson #1 in sales.  Lesson #2 is profiting from it.

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 04, 2015, 03:16:34 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 04, 2015, 11:52:47 AM
and therein lies the problem....there are no plans to widen I-95 into town....and because you have to get from the left side express lane on I-295 to the right side flyover ramp, the merge/weave problem will negate the benefits of the express lane....it is set up for failure! so the kids of the contractors doing the work will have a steady paycheck until their retirement as well.

Fixed.  [thumbup]

from another thread:

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on January 22, 2015, 01:43:22 PM
...  The genius of their plan is that they can then use their own poorly designed interchanges as a perfect example to explain the need for new highways... 

Creating a need is lesson #1 in sales.  Lesson #2 is profiting from it.

Kids of the contractors?   What?  Whom is this comment directed to?

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 03, 2015, 08:52:06 PM

Quote from: southsider1015 on February 03, 2015, 07:05:57 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 03, 2015, 08:33:01 AM
^ I have a better solution.....at some point we need to STOP widening our highways!

I'd love to see the data that supports the demand for 4 toll express lanes on I-295 from SR 13 to I-95....oh wait, that's right.....the demand isn't there....which is why FDOT will start by striping 2 of the lanes out and charging a minimal price (like $0.25).

http://www.northfloridaexpress.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/I-295PERDraftFinal.pdf (http://www.northfloridaexpress.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/I-295PERDraftFinal.pdf)

You're welcome.
[/quo

you do realize the PER has little to no traffic demand data in it right?

also note that the PER shows only 1 express lane lane per direction...guess you weren't around for the discussion that showed demand only for an extra 2 lanes....and only if they were minimally tolled.

these lanes are bound to fail because they have to end 2 miles before I-95 going eastbound...which of course will set up the argument requiring a left side exit onto 95 so the express lanes can function properly.

FDOT is intent on building these things all over the state

Nope I didn't realize it was missing.  Just assumed it was in there.  I've never understood why FDOT builds additonal lanes and not open them.

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 04, 2015, 11:52:47 AM

Quote from: David on February 04, 2015, 09:39:16 AM
45 minutes to drive 19 miles this morning, no wrecks either. Just general congestion.  Not the worst in the country I know but the pain on 295 is real.

295 is only a portion of the problem though, (for my route) 95 north was slow from 295 up past University, then again past Emerson all the way into downtown. Are they going to slap 4 extra express lanes onto that route too?

and therein lies the problem....there are no plans to widen I-95 into town....and because you have to get from the left side express lane on I-295 to the right side flyover ramp, the merge/weave problem will negate the benefits of the express lane....it is set up for failure!

A contract was just awarded to begin the PD&E phase for Express lanes on I-95 from JTB to Atlantic Blvd.

There's also other managed lanes segments on I-95 identified in NFTPO's future projects list.

Quote from: David on February 04, 2015, 09:39:16 AM
45 minutes to drive 19 miles this morning, no wrecks either. Just general congestion.  Not the worst in the country I know but the pain on 295 is real.

295 is only a portion of the problem though, (for my route) 95 north was slow from 295 up past University, then again past Emerson all the way into downtown. Are they going to slap 4 extra express lanes onto that route too?

Yep, they're coming to I-95.  First segment will likely be JTB to Atlantic.

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 04, 2015, 01:32:07 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on February 04, 2015, 12:41:19 PM
The best thing for I-295 would have been another river crossing north of Green Cove Springs. Half of the perceived traffic problems are probably significantly influenced by drivers attempting to cross the river. Considering our growth patterns the last few decades, this means it's either the Buckman or the Fuller Warren. This is one area where the First Coast Expressway could have helped. Unfortunately, some strange type of way, we're going to end up replacing the Shands Bridge instead.

that would be because St. Joe (Rivertown) blocked it

Regardless of FCE, the Shands needs to be replaced anyway.  Too low, and too unsafe.  Palatka can grow it's thriving ports if the bridge is raised, apparently.

River crossing north of GCS?  You mean in Mandarin? Fruit Cove? Julington Creek?  Yeah, right.  How well would that go over?  All the lawyers, doctors, and politicians that live there?  Are you familiar with the ROW acquisition process?  The cost for ROW would be more than the construction costs. 

I have always been curious why 9B was funded and constructed prior to 9A / 295 being widened to accommodate the amount of traffic already backing up on 9A / 295 particularly between US1 and JTB?   

Why wasn't 9B considered for tolls rather than the additional lanes on 295?

I have to say, if I keep working downtown for the foreseeable future and stay in Mandarin (which I probably will) they may be able to swindle my pockets to use the express lanes a few days a week.

Well, at least until there's a wreck in the express lane then...game over. Do you get a refund in that case?

Quote from: southsider1015 on February 04, 2015, 11:18:59 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 04, 2015, 01:32:07 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on February 04, 2015, 12:41:19 PM
The best thing for I-295 would have been another river crossing north of Green Cove Springs. Half of the perceived traffic problems are probably significantly influenced by drivers attempting to cross the river. Considering our growth patterns the last few decades, this means it's either the Buckman or the Fuller Warren. This is one area where the First Coast Expressway could have helped. Unfortunately, some strange type of way, we're going to end up replacing the Shands Bridge instead.

that would be because St. Joe (Rivertown) blocked it

Regardless of FCE, the Shands needs to be replaced anyway.  Too low, and too unsafe.  Palatka can grow it's thriving ports if the bridge is raised, apparently.

River crossing north of GCS?  You mean in Mandarin? Fruit Cove? Julington Creek?  Yeah, right.  How well would that go over?  All the lawyers, doctors, and politicians that live there?  Are you familiar with the ROW acquisition process?  The cost for ROW would be more than the construction costs.

You do realize there has been discussion of a river crossing North of GCS for over 20 years?  Before Rivertown & the SJ County boom. 

Clay county politicians and well connected land owners have always fought that to ensure development patterns that benefit their holdings along the more southerly route.  Then Rivertown decided to amend their phases of development to ensure ROW cost skyrocketed at the most reasonable path of a river crossing. 

No In My Back Yard -- NIMBY, we all know the concept. It's an important factor because of . . . American taxpayers. Very involved American taxpayers. Who know what they like and prefer, and who don't care to be told what they *should* like and prefer. And they happen to have working in their favor an economic business model that supports their desires (transportation work pumps up the economy; road construction jobs *are* important).

The Clay County vs St. Johns County battle on the bridge question is fairly representative of a MetroJacksonville issue that is certainly equal to an urban core issue. I'm sympathetic to the desire to buttress the urban core but the railing against "things suburban" and the blatant ignoring of the severe difficulties of right-of-way acquisition, etc., while juggling the concurrent taxpayer demand for suburban roadway relief and improvements is disappointing. They aren't ignoramuses at FDOT; it's probably the most professional state agency we have. But . . . politics and stakeholders have to be appreciated.

This metrojacksonville.com website could probably do a much better institutional job of draping some sunshine onto the PD&E process (project development and environmental assessment) for important projects in Northeast Florida:

http://www.dot.state.fl.us/emo/pubs/pdeman/handouts/2014/Public%20Involvement%20in%20-PDE_2014_EMS_June%203%202014.pdf

by standardizing some overlay that's applicable to the important questions and concerns both driving the project and limiting the FDOT projects as well. Please forgive my ignorance if y'all are, in fact, already doing something like this.

Quote from: Gators312 on February 05, 2015, 09:08:13 AM

Quote from: southsider1015 on February 04, 2015, 11:18:59 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 04, 2015, 01:32:07 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on February 04, 2015, 12:41:19 PM
The best thing for I-295 would have been another river crossing north of Green Cove Springs. Half of the perceived traffic problems are probably significantly influenced by drivers attempting to cross the river. Considering our growth patterns the last few decades, this means it's either the Buckman or the Fuller Warren. This is one area where the First Coast Expressway could have helped. Unfortunately, some strange type of way, we're going to end up replacing the Shands Bridge instead.

that would be because St. Joe (Rivertown) blocked it

Regardless of FCE, the Shands needs to be replaced anyway.  Too low, and too unsafe.  Palatka can grow it's thriving ports if the bridge is raised, apparently.

River crossing north of GCS?  You mean in Mandarin? Fruit Cove? Julington Creek?  Yeah, right.  How well would that go over?  All the lawyers, doctors, and politicians that live there?  Are you familiar with the ROW acquisition process?  The cost for ROW would be more than the construction costs.

You do realize there has been discussion of a river crossing North of GCS for over 20 years?  Before Rivertown & the SJ County boom. 

Clay county politicians and well connected land owners have always fought that to ensure development patterns that benefit their holdings along the more southerly route.  Then Rivertown decided to amend their phases of development to ensure ROW cost skyrocketed at the most reasonable path of a river crossing. 

^Bingo! Anyone who has paid attention to this over the years knows very well how politics played a role in the selected path and funding of the Outer Beltway.

Quote from: southsider1015 on February 04, 2015, 11:18:59 PM
Regardless of FCE, the Shands needs to be replaced anyway.  Too low, and too unsafe.  Palatka can grow it's thriving ports if the bridge is raised, apparently.

Yes, there is a need to maintain our existing infrastructure. However, this does not take away the need for another river crossing.....assuming the goal is to relieve existing congestion and future gridlock that comes as the result of additional low density, autocentric growth.

QuoteRiver crossing north of GCS?  You mean in Mandarin? Fruit Cove? Julington Creek?  Yeah, right.  How well would that go over?  All the lawyers, doctors, and politicians that live there?  Are you familiar with the ROW acquisition process?  The cost for ROW would be more than the construction costs.

More than you know. ;) I'm also pretty familiar with the historical process of how we've reached the point of where we are today and the politics behind it. It's really a completely different conversation and motive than just dealing with the realities of relieving congestion.

Quote from: David on February 05, 2015, 09:06:30 AM
I have to say, if I keep working downtown for the foreseeable future and stay in Mandarin (which I probably will) they may be able to swindle my pockets to use the express lanes a few days a week.

Well, at least until there's a wreck in the express lane then...game over. Do you get a refund in that case?

Not sure what part of Mandarin you live in but based upon my experience the better route to downtown for rush hour if you leave fairly early is San Jose.  Alot depends on the times though.

^Yes. Depending on the time of the day, I use either Philips or San Jose as alternatives to bypass the spots where the interstates back up.

With that said, I'm all for tolling. Roads are the biggest loser of money when it comes to construction cost and ongoing maintenance. Why more than something like the Skyway would ever run taxpayers. To recoup some of those costs, user fees......just like paying a fare for the bus, makes sense.

San Jose is good but it too gets backed up between 295 and Baymeadows and has a few school zones. I hop across the Buckman and take 17 most days. It's not necessarily a time saver, but more of a stress reducer.

Quote from: thelakelander on February 05, 2015, 10:19:04 AM
With that said, I'm all for tolling. Roads are the biggest loser of money when it comes to construction cost and ongoing maintenance. Why more than something like the Skyway would ever run taxpayers. To recoup some of those costs, user fees......just like paying a fare for the bus, makes sense.

I already pay my "toll" for the roads in the form of:
* Gas tax
* Sales tax
* Drivers License
* Car/Truck registration

If that's not enough money for them I would argue something is mismanaged and needs to be looked at.

I really hope these lanes are the failure I think they'll be, and that they'll sit empty most of the time.

And what about the bigger picture here? Paying the government extra money can get you something extra - when did that become acceptable? Can I pay a few bucks and skip people in line at the DMV?

^There's a reason you don't see the private sector investing in billions to fund highways. It's not nearly enough money. It's not about those funds being mismanaged. It's about roadway construction and maintenance simply costing taxpayers more money than those "tolls" generate. With that said, perhaps if we stopped subsidizing gas to the amount that we do in this country, the extra taxes might generate a lot more than they currently do.

Quote from: RattlerGator on February 05, 2015, 10:02:48 AM
No In My Back Yard -- NIMBY, we all know the concept. It's an important factor because of . . . American taxpayers. Very involved American taxpayers. Who know what they like and prefer, and who don't care to be told what they *should* like and prefer. And they happen to have working in their favor an economic business model that supports their desires (transportation work pumps up the economy; road construction jobs *are* important).

The Clay County vs St. Johns County battle on the bridge question is fairly representative of a MetroJacksonville issue that is certainly equal to an urban core issue. I'm sympathetic to the desire to buttress the urban core but the railing against "things suburban" and the blatant ignoring of the severe difficulties of right-of-way acquisition, etc., while juggling the concurrent taxpayer demand for suburban roadway relief and improvements is disappointing. They aren't ignoramuses at FDOT; it's probably the most professional state agency we have. But . . . politics and stakeholders have to be appreciated.

This metrojacksonville.com website could probably do a much better institutional job of draping some sunshine onto the PD&E process (project development and environmental assessment) for important projects in Northeast Florida:

http://www.dot.state.fl.us/emo/pubs/pdeman/handouts/2014/Public%20Involvement%20in%20-PDE_2014_EMS_June%203%202014.pdf

by standardizing some overlay that's applicable to the important questions and concerns both driving the project and limiting the FDOT projects as well. Please forgive my ignorance if y'all are, in fact, already doing something like this.

Finally.  An informed opinion.  Infrastructure spending, even roadway construction, is an economic driver in this state. 

^ yes...because folks like Lakelander and I aren't informed....and clearly we don't work in the transportation planning field either ;)

Quote from: southsider1015 on February 05, 2015, 08:31:49 PM
Infrastructure spending, even roadway construction, is an economic driver in this state.

I don't think anyone ever said it wasn't an economic driver. It's pretty clear taxpayers are supporting several planning firms, engineers, consultants, pavement contractors, concrete companies, real estate development firms, big landowners, etc. That's the primary reason a good chunk of our infrastructure projects built over the last few decades. The challenge we have is that relying on the taxpayer to bear the big burden of putting bread on everyone's table isn't financially viable long term.

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 05, 2015, 09:23:53 PM
^ yes...because folks like Lakelander and I aren't informed....and clearly we don't work in the transportation planning field either ;)

Wasn't trying to imply that you weren't. I consider both if you informed, even if I disagree with your opinions.

It's the 20 other opinions that are clearly uninformed here.

Quote from: thelakelander on February 05, 2015, 09:31:27 PM

Quote from: southsider1015 on February 05, 2015, 08:31:49 PM
Infrastructure spending, even roadway construction, is an economic driver in this state.

I don't think anyone ever said it wasn't an economic driver. It's pretty clear taxpayers are supporting several planning firms, engineers, consultants, pavement contractors, concrete companies, real estate development firms, big landowners, etc. That's the primary reason a good chunk of our infrastructure projects built over the last few decades. The challenge we have is that relying on the taxpayer to bear the big burden of putting bread on everyone's table isn't financially viable long term.

You mean local dollars?  if it's not the taxpayer, who is it?  if you're making the point about tolls, I agree.  Usage/user based taxing makes complete sense.  Once we get the VMTs issue figure out, funding will be easier to figure out.

Quote from: coredumped on February 05, 2015, 12:26:56 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on February 05, 2015, 10:19:04 AM
With that said, I'm all for tolling. Roads are the biggest loser of money when it comes to construction cost and ongoing maintenance. Why more than something like the Skyway would ever run taxpayers. To recoup some of those costs, user fees......just like paying a fare for the bus, makes sense.

I already pay my "toll" for the roads in the form of:
* Gas tax
* Sales tax
* Drivers License
* Car/Truck registration

If that's not enough money for them I would argue something is mismanaged and needs to be looked at.

I really hope these lanes are the failure I think they'll be, and that they'll sit empty most of the time.

And what about the bigger picture here? Paying the government extra money can get you something extra - when did that become acceptable? Can I pay a few bucks and skip people in line at the DMV?

The average American spends more on Starbucks than on gas taxes.  I'll quote my source once I find it.

Managed lanes are about choice and guarentees.  Need to get somewhere at an exact or guarentees time?  Late for a meeting or appointment?  Pay the toll and make it on time.  Or leave early, sit in traffic, and maybe you'll make it.  Or schedule your life outside of the peak hours, and drive for free.  Options.

Frankly, it's not enough.  The cost to plan/design/acquire/finance/build/maintain has risen over the last few decades.  But our systems are, without a doubt, more safe, more efficient, and more maintainable now more than ever, and will continue to improve.

Quote from: southsider1015 on February 06, 2015, 07:18:48 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on February 05, 2015, 09:31:27 PM

Quote from: southsider1015 on February 05, 2015, 08:31:49 PM
Infrastructure spending, even roadway construction, is an economic driver in this state.

I don't think anyone ever said it wasn't an economic driver. It's pretty clear taxpayers are supporting several planning firms, engineers, consultants, pavement contractors, concrete companies, real estate development firms, big landowners, etc. That's the primary reason a good chunk of our infrastructure projects built over the last few decades. The challenge we have is that relying on the taxpayer to bear the big burden of putting bread on everyone's table isn't financially viable long term.

You mean local dollars?  if it's not the taxpayer, who is it?

The key is sustainable spending. It doesn't matter whether it's local, state or federal. You can't spend just to spend if you don't have the cash. Thus, we need to be more financially responsible with the projects we decide to fund.

Lexus lane?..................just keep in mind my 14 year old 4x4 Chevy truck has Harris County EZ pass and Florida Sun Pass accounts. The express lanes often skip stop lights and traffic. They are worth the cost if you drive a lot. Lots of business service trucks also us the lanes to expedite travel around town.

I've lived in Mandarin most of the last 30 years. I avoid that stretch of I295 (San Jose to I-95) at rush hour anyway because it backs up due to volume.  Express lanes should lower some of that back up if they carry some of the "west side" traffic to I-95.

Since the I-295 express lane will be in the median, traffic will most likely clog up at the I-95 interchange. All express lane traffic attempting to get to I-95 north or I-95 south will have to get weave through all general service lanes in a relatively short distance. Eventually, we'll have to reconfigure that interchange.

I think managed lanes on 95 would be a better place to start.  Southsider mentioned JTB to Atlantic...I think managed lanes on that stretch would be quite a success and would actually serve their purpose.  I know I would pay to use them.

The "I already pay enough in gas taxes" mantra is lame.  It is an archaic system that doesn't come close to providing enough funds. Teaparty BS really. VMT will be the way to go- it is coming.

Quote from: David on February 05, 2015, 11:25:10 AM
San Jose is good but it too gets backed up between 295 and Baymeadows and has a few school zones. I hop across the Buckman and take 17 most days. It's not necessarily a time saver, but more of a stress reducer.

Again depending on time and where you live in mandarin you can miss the San Jose traffic from Baymeadows to 295 by taking Beuclerc to Scott Mill. I am off Mandarin Rd and this route saves much time and frustration. 

Quote from: cline on February 06, 2015, 10:49:48 AM
The "I already pay enough in gas taxes" mantra is lame.  It is an archaic system that doesn't come close to providing enough funds. Teaparty BS really. VMT will be the way to go- it is coming.

No, it's really not. When you look at how much of your money goes to taxes it's staggering. It would be nice to take home what we earn. I pay almost 2x in taxes than what I earned in college. (yes, I'm fortunate to have a good paying job). But if you're for more taxes and bigger gov. then by all means vote accordingly.

But back on topic...

I think a better use of these funds would be making the "east beltway" (9A portion of 295) 3 lanes. It's 3 lanes on the west side and with the growth on the southside it's long overdue.

Whatever you pay now still doesn't add up to the cost of continuing to build new and maintain existing roads. At some point, we'll need to make a decision to either live within our means or increase taxes to afford what we've been doing since WWII.

Agreed and agreed. My point is tolls won't cover the roads either. The government keeps spending and spending, it's bound to implode,and yet it keeps increasing in size too.
The money has to come from somewhere. They've gotten good at printing it but it's really unsustainable.
Again, my hope is that this is a total failure and they abort the rest of the plans. If Orlando and Tampa don't have them, we certainly don't need them.
(rant over)

Quote from: coredumped on February 06, 2015, 07:44:37 PM
Agreed and agreed. My point is tolls won't cover the roads either. The government keeps spending and spending, it's bound to implode,and yet it keeps increasing in size too.
The money has to come from somewhere. They've gotten good at printing it but it's really unsustainable.
Again, my hope is that this is a total failure and they abort the rest of the plans. If Orlando and Tampa don't have them, we certainly don't need them.
(rant over)

Orlando and Tampa?  Hahah have ya even been?

See what I mean about the uninformed opinions?

Quote from: coredumped on February 06, 2015, 07:44:37 PM
Agreed and agreed. My point is tolls won't cover the roads either. The government keeps spending and spending, it's bound to implode,and yet it keeps increasing in size too.
The money has to come from somewhere. They've gotten good at printing it but it's really unsustainable.
Again, my hope is that this is a total failure and they abort the rest of the plans. If Orlando and Tampa don't have them, we certainly don't need them.
(rant over)

Defense spending?  Entitlements?  Let's get real here.  I consider myself an informed conservative, and to say that the government is too big for more infrastructure spending is freakin joke.  The industrial miltary complex that Eisenhower warned about is real.

This country needs to get its priority straight.  The extreme politicing from both sides of the spectrum is ridiculous.  Leadership on both sides needs to be completely removed, and we seriously need campaign finance reform.  The olicharies need to be reduced, and we need to reinvest back into this country.

There is a severe lack of leadership in this country.  There.  My rant over.

Quote from: coredumped on February 06, 2015, 07:44:37 PM
If Orlando and Tampa don't have them, we certainly don't need them.

(http://www.figgbridge.com/Images/Bridge%20Portfolio/Urban%20Bridges/Lee%20Roy%20Selmon%20Expressway/Lee_Roy_Selmon_2.png)
Tampa's Lee Roy Selmon has been toll since it's opening in 1976.

Tolls have been in Orlando and Tampa for as far as I can remember. More are on the way, including managed lanes down the center of I-4.

(http://www.wnyc.org/i/raw/1/transportation201303I-4_Rendering_Downtown_Orlando-600x417.jpg)
What I-4 will look like when construction is complete in another six years or so.

Quote from: southsider1015 on February 06, 2015, 11:04:33 PM
Orlando and Tampa?  Hahah have ya even been?

See what I mean about the uninformed opinions?

Yes, I've lived in both. Maybe you misunderstood - NEITHER of those cities have lexus lanes (which is what this article is about).

See what I mean about the reading comprehension?

Quote from: coredumped on February 07, 2015, 06:44:41 PM

Quote from: southsider1015 on February 06, 2015, 11:04:33 PM
Orlando and Tampa?  Hahah have ya even been?

See what I mean about the uninformed opinions?

Yes, I've lived in both. Maybe you misunderstood - NEITHER of those cities have lexus lanes (which is what this article is about).

See what I mean about the reading comprehension?

Bwahaha.  Right.  Anyway, FLT and Miami  are currently the only two cities operating managed lanes as of today.  Both Orlando and Tampa will have managed lanes operating in the next 5 years.  Are you familiar with the statewide policy on managed lanes?  All capacity projects (aka widening) are to consider managed lanes on interstate highways.  Basically, unless there's a solid reason not to toll the lane, it'll be a tolled/managed lane.  Heck, FDOT is looking at managed lanes on arterials such as SR 200.

They aren't going to fail because we hate sitting in traffic.  And what's the definition of failure here?  Only 20% or less uses them?  Still a win-win because now the state will at least some revenue to show for it. 

Yes. Construction on this elevated toll project in the Tampa Bay area will begin in 2017.

(http://www.saintpetersblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Gateway-012214-without-Typicals.jpg)

(http://www.saintpetersblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Gateway-Express_Map_Typical_Boards_1-Large.jpg)

Full article: http://www.saintpetersblog.com/archives/134469

Quote from: thelakelander on February 09, 2015, 11:53:03 PM
Yes. Construction on this elevated toll project in the Tampa Bay area will begin in 2017.

(http://www.saintpetersblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Gateway-012214-without-Typicals.jpg)

(http://www.saintpetersblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Gateway-Express_Map_Typical_Boards_1-Large.jpg)

Full article: http://www.saintpetersblog.com/archives/134469

The SR 690 elevated typical section was the section I was referring to back earlier in the thread.  Not sure why FDOT is going with it in Tampa; it's so expensive.  They must have trees to save.

^My guess is it's probably a lot less politically polarizing than attempting to acquire or take the developed commercial properties and portions of the cemetery on 118th Avenue.

^ FDOT also had to get around the issue of "not replacing existing free lanes with toll lanes".  That is a quote made by the FDOT Secretary and the Governor on multiple occasions.  The raised median expressway allowed that to be accomplished without the need for much ROW.

Of course, they found a way to skirt the issue here in replacing parts of Branan Field Road with the First Coast Expressway.

Quote from: coredumped on February 07, 2015, 06:44:41 PM

Quote from: southsider1015 on February 06, 2015, 11:04:33 PM
Orlando and Tampa?  Hahah have ya even been?

See what I mean about the uninformed opinions?

Yes, I've lived in both. Maybe you misunderstood - NEITHER of those cities have lexus lanes (which is what this article is about).

See what I mean about the reading comprehension?

Orlando has started construction on the I-4 express lanes...and Tampa will be adding them to I-275 north from downtown in the next 2-3 years.

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 10, 2015, 10:15:34 AM
^ FDOT also had to get around the issue of "not replacing existing free lanes with toll lanes".  That is a quote made by the FDOT Secretary and the Governor on multiple occasions.  The raised median expressway allowed that to be accomplished without the need for much ROW.

Of course, they found a way to skirt the issue here in replacing parts of Branan Field Road with the First Coast Expressway.

Yes, I think that was a bit of a blunder on behalf of FDOT and COJ.  Using COJ BJP money to fund widening which was to be ultimately become part of Toll 23 was not right.  It's over and done with, but that shouldn't have been done like that. Whether it's FDOT'S money to give back to COJ, or a misuse of COJ funds, I don't know.  Maybe the improvements will help Cecil Commerce?