Quote
Vinik's new downtown hotel will help Tampa chase bigger conventionsThe additional meeting space Jeff Vinik plans to build in his new hotel should make Tampa more competitive for landing major conventions — the kind that bring in more than 10,000 people who, city officials hope, will come to town ready to spend money on hotels, dining and shopping.
Vinik on Wednesday closed on the $150 million acquisition of the Tampa Marriott Waterside Hotel and Marina, and on Thursday received the approval of the full city council for a new hotel across the street from the Marriott. That hotel could have up to 400 rooms in as many as 25 stories and include 100,000 square feet of meeting space.
The new space is almost a 20 percent increase over the 600,000 square feet currently at the Tampa Convention Center, said Santiago Corrada, president and CEO of Visit Tampa Bay. The additional space — combined with the 50,000 square feet available at the Marriott — puts the city in the running for larger conventions and gives it the ability to host concurrent conventions, which it can't do now because of too few available meeting rooms, Corrada said.
The convention center generated 437,633 hotel room nights and an $248.7 million estimated economic impact in fiscal 2014, which ended Sept. 30, according to preliminary figures from Visit Tampa Bay, which will have final totals in the coming weeks.
Full article: http://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/news/2014/10/03/viniks-new-downtown-hotel-will-help-tampa-chase.html (http://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/news/2014/10/03/viniks-new-downtown-hotel-will-help-tampa-chase.html)
What are the current stats for Jacksonville?
If the city is truly serious about pumping additional energy and life into downtown, then building a new convention center on the St. Johns River should be top priority. Having lived in Harbour Island in downtown Tampa, I experienced first hand the activity that larger conventions bring to an area. I believe that downtown Jax is in the early stages of a credible upturn, primarily thanks to Shad Khan, but will never be a serious destination without a sizable convention center. Honestly, without their convention center, downtown Tampa would be just as lifeless as downtown Jax, even with destinations including the Florida Aquarium, Cruise ship terminals and the Amalie Arena for TB Lightning games/concerts. According to the article, comparable cities like Nashville and Charlotte are also light years away.
Wake up Jax and smell the (Maxwell House) coffee!
The convention center market is over-saturated, but the race to keep building them bigger and better hasn't slowed. (http://www.citylab.com/cityfixer/2012/06/stop-building-convention-centers/2210/)
I strongly disagree with prioritizing a new convention center with city money. Even with the assumption that money could be found to build it, it would almost certainly add another hole to the city budget (Mobile (http://blog.al.com/live/2013/12/mobile_civic_center_mainbar.html) has floated tearing theirs down, Pensacola (http://archive.pnj.com/article/20130414/OPINION/304140010/Sunday-Convo-April-14) will probably throw several more million into theirs despite continued operating deficits, Savannah's (http://savannahnow.com/exchange/2013-06-13/trade-center-board-oks-budget-re-elects-officers) also loses money).
The arguments for a convention center are so similar to sports arenas (http://www.citylab.com/work/2012/08/do-basketball-arenas-spur-economic-development/2804/):
Quote"Basketball arenas," Propheter concludes "are not primary catalysts of economic development but are instead economic complements. The present research is generally consistent with the notion that professional sports are not the cause of development so much as they are the effect."
I think Jax is better off staying out of the convention center arms race and focusing instead on building the foundations for downtown development via incentives for adaptive reuse of existing structures and small businesses as well as improving the legislative climate (form-based zoning, pedestrian-friendly streetscape policies). Not sexy and probably won't grab headlines, but much more cost-efficient and sustainable than giant capital projects.
^^^I agree that convention centers aren't the end all be all.
The article in the headline refers to meeting and hotel rooms to support a different kind of convention type, not a public convention center.
So if we are "behind"....how are we behind? We have a lot of hotels that serve niche meeting markets. The meeting market for 5000 attendees and above is massively saturated across the US.
As noted, many cities have these public monuments to the convention industry but had no hotel support behind it and so they are dying. Those hotels have to have paying customers 300 days a year, not for the 5 events a year business.
If Jacksonville wants to pursue the meetings market, it should be done organically. Besides, Bed Tax dollars are committed to the stadium now.
Quote from: spuwho on October 04, 2014, 01:29:48 PM
What are the current stats for Jacksonville?
The Prime Osborn is 265,000 square feet. The exhibition hall is 78,500 square feet. Tampa's convention center is 600,000 square feet with a 200,000 square feet exhibition hall.
A convention center in Downtown is laughable as downtown currently stands. There are two hotels there for Gods sake. Besides attend the convention what else is there to do downtown? Not a damn thing. If all the projects on the table now were finished then you could start to consider it. Until then, don't hold your breath.
This is one issue I've not taken a stand on throughout the past several years of debate. On the one hand, a convention center on the riverfront would simply be cool, and it would also allow the Prime Osborne to go back to being a transportation center anchored by rail. That's the best part. On the other hand, I always got the argument that it could be a failure and major waste of money. But I was hung up on whether the risk was worth the reward.
I'm starting to come around now, though, to accepting that this is an arms race that Jax can't afford to join right now. I do think that someday a major convention center might be needed, but I don't think we need it to create that kind of city. As Lake said, let it happen organically. We can't expect the convention business to spur the development of a world class downtown...we should create the best downtown we can have and see where it takes us. As for getting out of the Prime Osborne then...perhaps the best bet is for a smaller multi-purpose center that, combined with the Hyatt, can serve these niche conventions/conferences.
Quote from: spuwho on October 04, 2014, 01:29:48 PM
What are the current stats for Jacksonville?
3- gun shows
2- home and garden shows
A black expo
and
A boat show!
85,000 sq ft of far too small convention center and just right train/bus station
+
3 solvent downtown hotels
+
A landing that smells of piss!
Quote from: MusicMan on October 04, 2014, 09:34:28 PM
A convention center in Downtown is laughable as downtown currently stands. There are two hotels there for Gods sake. Besides attend the convention what else is there to do downtown? Not a damn thing. If all the projects on the table now were finished then you could start to consider it. Until then, don't hold your breath.
So the city should wait until it has a few more full-service hotels downtown? What will spur that development? FL Country Superfest, Welcome to Rockville, FL-GA game, Gator Bowl, proposed USS Adams maritime museum? Don't get me wrong, these are all great, but they will never make downtown Jax a destination.
Quote from: spuwho on October 04, 2014, 03:32:55 PM
As noted, many cities have these public monuments to the convention industry but had no hotel support behind it and so they are dying. Those hotels have to have paying customers 300 days a year, not for the 5 events a year business.
Tampa's convention center didn't generate nearly 450,000 hotel room nights last fiscal year, (roughly equivalent to filling the Hyatt and Omni every night), by hosting just 5 events.
Quote from: BD51 on October 05, 2014, 08:32:54 AM
Quote from: MusicMan on October 04, 2014, 09:34:28 PM
A convention center in Downtown is laughable as downtown currently stands. There are two hotels there for Gods sake. Besides attend the convention what else is there to do downtown? Not a damn thing. If all the projects on the table now were finished then you could start to consider it. Until then, don't hold your breath.
So the city should wait until it has a few more full-service hotels downtown? What will spur that development? FL Country Superfest, Welcome to Rockville, FL-GA game, Gator Bowl, proposed USS Adams maritime museum? Don't get me wrong, these are all great, but they will never make downtown Jax a destination.
^Good point. None of those things are going to "make" downtown a "destination". Most major cities have comparable events, museums, and more. A new convention center won't either. But none of these things should be expected too.
I'm not as down on a new convention center as many. If it were between the scoreboards and convention center
(funding wise, it was), I'd go convention center because of the indirect livability options and economic opportunities it facilitates with the Jacksonville Terminal, Northbank Riverfront, Hyatt, Jax Landing, Courthouse Annex, and East Bay Street bars/restaurants, etc. The correct placement of clustering complementing uses, within a compact pedestrian setting is the key to downtown vibrancy. Moving the convention center to the courthouse site, enhancing the viability of the Hyatt, the Elbow, Landing, etc. advances the concept of the "three C's".
So, I think this is one of those issues where we have to balance expense/size verses goals for making the expense. If the goal is to be a top convention destination in the US and for the center to be an immediate direct money maker, then that's a losing battle. Same goes for public investments on transit, in libraries, parks, cycle tracks, streetscapes, schools, etc. If the goal is to create a downtown environment that includes correct and coordinated placement of uses and investments that actually works and helps stimulate additional economic opportunity and traffic flow, then that's another discussion altogether.
Quote from: JFman00 on October 04, 2014, 03:03:57 PM
I strongly disagree with prioritizing a new convention center with city money. Even with the assumption that money could be found to build it, it would almost certainly add another hole to the city budget (Mobile (http://blog.al.com/live/2013/12/mobile_civic_center_mainbar.html) has floated tearing theirs down, Pensacola (http://archive.pnj.com/article/20130414/OPINION/304140010/Sunday-Convo-April-14) will probably throw several more million into theirs despite continued operating deficits, Savannah's (http://savannahnow.com/exchange/2013-06-13/trade-center-board-oks-budget-re-elects-officers) also loses money).
I don't think using Mobile, Pensacola or Savannah are fair comparisons. Particularly a 50 year old structure in a metro less than one-third the population of Jax. How about using Tampa, Nashville, Charlotte, Salt Lake City, Oklahoma City, all with Major League franchises and focused on making downtown a destination.
Quote from: MusicMan on October 04, 2014, 09:34:28 PM
A convention center in Downtown is laughable as downtown currently stands. There are two hotels there for Gods sake. Besides attend the convention what else is there to do downtown? Not a damn thing. If all the projects on the table now were finished then you could start to consider it. Until then, don't hold your breath.
I have to agree. I have been to cities like San Diego, Philadelphia, Boston and Atlanta for conventions. There is more to hosting a convention than just the convention center. I have noticed that convention cities like the ones that I mentioned are very appealing to convention attendees with restaurants, retail and entertainment options within walking distance of their convention venues and lodging. In my opinion, it helps to have a vibrant city center as I did not mind walking around Philadelphia or Boston in all hours of the day because they did not shut down after 5PM...
Quote from: thelakelander on October 05, 2014, 09:12:04 AM
Quote from: BD51 on October 05, 2014, 08:32:54 AM
Quote from: MusicMan on October 04, 2014, 09:34:28 PM
A convention center in Downtown is laughable as downtown currently stands. There are two hotels there for Gods sake. Besides attend the convention what else is there to do downtown? Not a damn thing. If all the projects on the table now were finished then you could start to consider it. Until then, don't hold your breath.
So the city should wait until it has a few more full-service hotels downtown? What will spur that development? FL Country Superfest, Welcome to Rockville, FL-GA game, Gator Bowl, proposed USS Adams maritime museum? Don't get me wrong, these are all great, but they will never make downtown Jax a destination.
^Good point. None of those things are going to "make" downtown a "destination". Most major cities have comparable events, museums, and more. A new convention center won't either. But none of these things should be expected too.
I'm not as down on a new convention center as many. If it were between the scoreboards and convention center (funding wise, it was), I'd go convention center because of the indirect livability options and economic opportunities it facilitates with the Jacksonville Terminal, Northbank Riverfront, Hyatt, Jax Landing, Courthouse Annex, and East Bay Street bars/restaurants, etc. The correct placement of clustering complementing uses, within a compact pedestrian setting is the key to downtown vibrancy. Moving the convention center to the courthouse site, enhancing the viability of the Hyatt, the Elbow, Landing, etc. advances the concept of the "three C's".
So, I think this is one of those issues where we have to balance expense/size verses goals for making the expense. If the goal is to be a top convention destination in the US and for the center to be an immediate direct money maker, then that's a losing battle. Same goes for public investments on transit, in libraries, parks, cycle tracks, streetscapes, schools, etc. If the goal is to create a downtown environment that includes correct and coordinated placement of uses and investments that actually works and helps stimulate additional economic opportunity and traffic flow, then that's another discussion altogether.
That's incredible. The city deserves to be ripped apart and made fun of endlessly for that, and even on this very forum there are people who get all defensive about the scoreboards and start personal attacks on those who don't share the same sentiments.
With decisions like that being made, it's almost pointless to read the headlines on this forum on a daily basis, or comment ("but you don't
live here, what do you care?...those videotrons are for the
people of Jacksonville"). omg so dumb.
You guys do know that most cities of decent size have a convention center or some place where their businesses/industry can have trade shows, conferences, exhibitions, etc.? For every San Diego, Philadelphia, Boston that Jax isn't and shouldn't attempt to compete with, there's a Birmingham, Grand Rapids, Louisville, Milwaukee out there that it could....and probably already does on some level today. Then there's a level of events that are held in places with smaller centers like Erie, PA and Lakeland, FL. This is an honest question for everyone. Are there any real business centers out there with no convention facilities at all?
Quote from: simms3 on October 05, 2014, 03:58:39 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on October 05, 2014, 09:12:04 AM
I'm not as down on a new convention center as many. If it were between the scoreboards and convention center (funding wise, it was), I'd go convention center because of the indirect livability options and economic opportunities it facilitates...
That's incredible. The city deserves to be ripped apart and made fun of endlessly for that, and even on this very forum there are people who get all defensive about the scoreboards and start personal attacks on those who don't share the same sentiments.
With decisions like that being made, it's almost pointless to read the headlines on this forum on a daily basis, or comment ("but you don't live here, what do you care?...those videotrons are for the people of Jacksonville"). omg so dumb.
Unfortunately, that is true. The scoreboards were funded with the bed tax. The exact same tax that was considered by the Peyton administration to help fund a new convention center in the mid-2000s. If Jax decides it would like to invest in a new center at some point in the future, the bed tax is not a realistic funding mechanism anymore.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 05, 2014, 04:05:38 PM
You guys do know that most cities of decent size have a convention center or some place where their businesses/industry can have trade shows, conferences, exhibitions, etc.? For every San Diego, Philadelphia, Boston that Jax isn't and shouldn't attempt to compete with, there's a Birmingham, Grand Rapids, Louisville, Milwaukee out there that it could....and probably already does on some level today. Then there's a level of events that are held in places with smaller centers like Erie, PA and Lakeland, FL. This is an honest question for everyone. Are there any real business centers out there with no convention facilities at all?
Sadly, Jax cannot currently compete with Birmingham, Louisville, Milwaukee or even Grand Rapids. And we already know the city has lost conventions to Daytona. By the way, does anyone else think that downtown Birmingham would have a new Westin hotel without a decent convention center?
I don't understand the drive to compete in a shrinking market given increased competition at every level, the city's budget, and the opportunity cost of using tax dollars for a CC vs other improvements. Yes, there are convention centers *everywhere* but Seattle seems to be doing just fine with one not much bigger than ours. Should we plan for an improvement on/relocation of the Prime Osborne? Absolutely. Are there several pages of more important and less costly items to address concerning Downtown? Without a doubt.
Seattle's convention center is more than twice the size of Jax's and was last expanded in 2001. A $766 million plan to expand it again was temporarily put on ice in 2009. Here's an article about the debate of whether expansion is worth the costs or not:
http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2008590328_conventioncenter05m.html
Quote from: JFman00 on October 05, 2014, 09:05:54 PM
Should we plan for an improvement on/relocation of the Prime Osborne? Absolutely.
This was my basic point.
QuoteAre there several pages of more important and less costly items to address concerning Downtown? Without a doubt.
Without a doubt. My hope is that we'll find a way to accomplish several things simultaneously.
Lets begin by saying SMG does little good in promoting and marketing the city venues. Especially since they must get permission from the jaguars to do most anything.
Then lets add to it that after improvements to the current convention center were done being paid for the city in its infinite stupidity decided to give the revenue to the Jaguars instead of keeping the 2% for a future new convention center or maintenance/improvement of the current center.
Had the city NOT given the to selfish selfserving jaguars the convention centers share of 2% revenue a new convention center could have been practically bought and paid for by today.
And now city leadership doesnt want piss off jaguars ("oh no, where would we be if the jaguars werent here", is a constant threat by city leadership AND the jaguars) therefore wont ask for that 2% back to improve the chances of having revenue to pay for a new convention center.
During the last council meeting Gulliford who wants to ask voters for a "new" sales tax stated "we" must find a new source of revenue for pension debt and capital improvements but folks get real! THERE IS ONLY ONE SOURCE OF REVENUE AND THAT IS THE TAX PAYER!
Folks WE already paid for every pension in this city unfortunately city leadership chose to spend the revenue some where else. WE are in major debt for capital improvements (over 1/2 Billion) that has done little to nothing to fulfill the needs of the city but pet projects sure have been built.
Lets bring up the fact the Capital Improvement Plan (CIP) that we should be able to look at and know what to expect and what has to be paid for CONTINUES to change and be amended so we NEVER know what is going on and who ever is in charge from year to year KEEPS changing the priorities so we can never get ahead of plas for convention centers, skyways, etc., hell we cant even pay for road resurfacing and infrastructure improvements because of mismanagement of money.
History teaches this community that city leadership cannot be trusted with their word and certainly not our money, and way too many citizens are cowards to speak up at council meetings therefore city leadership routinely runs amok!
If this city wants a new convention center the first place to go IS the Jaguars to get that 2% revenue back! AND the Jaguars NEED to STOP threatening this community and city leadership that if we dont give in to their whim they will pack up and leave because THAT is way past old!!!
I echo the other comments in here regarding the other elements to pursuing convention business. It goes way beyond and is most times less about the convention center itself and more so about the area/amenities/entertainment available outside the convention facilities/activities.
Do you think Vegas is the convention capital of the country because its convention center is so amazing? Not even a little bit... it's because of everything ELSE that Vegas is/has. We can't compete in the convention market because we simply don't have enough of the other supporting elements to draw it in. Daytona Beach, in all its "fame" of once being the spring break capital and having all the biker events and NASCAR... even they are struggling to bring business to their Ocean Center because all the entertainment venues and the beachside area has lost its "luster" from the 80's/90's and the city is not doing much to get that "amazing beach town" reputation back.
Bottom line is that there is little to do downtown and therefore to spend millions on a new convention center, on precious river front real estate, is not a smart move prior to elevating the downtown attractions.
Quote from: marty904 on October 06, 2014, 09:11:53 AM
I echo the other comments in here regarding the other elements to pursuing convention business. It goes way beyond and is most times less about the convention center itself and more so about the area/amenities/entertainment available outside the convention facilities/activities.
Bottom line is that there is little to do downtown and therefore to spend millions on a new convention center, on precious river front real estate, is not a smart move prior to elevating the downtown attractions.
I agree that it goes beyond the convention center itself and the amenities/entertainment surrounding the facility is just as important, if not more so. But how is Jax going to elevate its downtown attractions without a more steady flow of out of town/state visitors? Currently, downtown is basically a meeting place for sporting events, concerts, Monster trucks and the Fair for the locals. Do you really think that private development wouldn't coincide with and follow a new convention center on the St Johns River? Do you think Mr. Vinik, owner of the TB Lightning, would be investing his money in downtown Tampa without their existing convention center? Since Tampa is now beginning to focus on the 10,000+ convention market, Jax should be stepping up to the plate.
http://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/news/2014/10/02/why-jeff-vinik-paid-150-million-for-tampa-marriott.html (http://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/news/2014/10/02/why-jeff-vinik-paid-150-million-for-tampa-marriott.html)
QuoteAs companies and associations slowly raise budgets for meetings and conventions, they're giving greater consideration to smaller and less-expensive cities that they once might have bypassed for more glamorous locales.
"A lot of second-tier cities have been very aggressive in site-inspection (trips), promotions and financial offerings," says Kevin Iwamoto of StarCite, which connects meeting planners and sellers.
Incentive meetings are also making a comeback, often away from Las Vegas, Chicago or Orlando. Nearly a quarter of meeting planners in a recent survey by Corporate Meetings & Incentives, a trade publication, say they expect their incentive budgets to be higher this year but will use second-tier cities, says Barbara Scofidio, the publication's editor.
Shifting meetings to less-expensive destinations is not a new strategy, as planners have sought to squeeze more from their shrinking budgets in the last two years. But belt-tightening ways and the appeal of smaller markets linger even as the economy improves.
New convention space and hotels help. Many small to midsize cities built new hotels before and during the recession, and are aggressively marketing them.
In January, Indianapolis completed its $278 million expansion of its downtown convention center. Omaha and nearby suburbs have seen a 25% increase in hotel rooms in the last three years.
Rapidly rising hotel rates in the top markets also make smaller cities appear more attractive, says Dale Lockett, CEO of Albuquerque Convention and Visitors Bureau.
After falling 24% in 2010, bookings in Memphis are 12% higher this year vs. the same period a year ago, says John Oros of Memphis Convention and Visitors Bureau.
Meeting planners are still shy about appearing in "high-profile destinations," says Joe Marinelli, president of Visit Savannah in Georgia. Such concerns are easing. But the policies enacted during the recession — avoiding beachfront properties, staying closer to home — remain considerations for many companies.
Savannah has become a beneficiary of meeting planners' modest approach, Marinelli says. Savannah had its best tourism year ever in 2010, with the city's hotel tax collection rising 14% despite room rates falling slightly. "It's warm. It's a place people want to go to," Marinelli says. "It has spa and golf, but not perceived as an over-the-top destination."
SOURCE - USA TODAY - http://travel.usatoday.com/news/story/2011/02/Conventions-go-to-Memphis-Savannah-other-smaller-cities/43425600/1
Small city convention centers are alive and well but they all have elements of success that we just keep ignoring. Connectivity, scale, location, hotels, and featuring the many offerings to be found in Jacksonville which are apparently quite easy to spot from the Met-Life blimp, but invisible to locals.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Voila_Capture2014-10-06_11-18-12_AM_zps7ef882a0.jpg)
ENID OK
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Voila_Capture2014-10-06_11-07-59_AM_zpsa0c12b8e.jpg)
Grand Rapids MI
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Voila_Capture2014-10-06_11-35-18_AM_zps905bed3e.jpg)
Sioux Falls SD
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Voila_Capture2014-10-06_11-38-20_AM_zps3f15238e.jpg)
Riverside CA
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Voila_Capture2014-10-06_11-32-29_AM_zps26c8404b.jpg)
Las Cruces NM
The same way private development sprung up around the Prime Osborne? Or how bustling it is around the stadium when there's not a game going on? What brings people to downtowns is having vibrant, active, occupied downtowns. The city, hopefully, isn't trying (anymore) to build a mall or amusement park with some gimmicky "big draw" surrounded by places for people to spend money. Instead it needs to focus on making downtown a place people want to live, work, shop and maybe have some fun.
The interventions necessary for this have been known for some time:
- Making streets friendly for pedestrians
- Aiding and encouraging small businesses to start up or expand
- Incentivizing developers to build and residents to move in
- Discouraging property owners from undesireable uses of land (parking lots)
- Preserving and re-using unique, historical structures
- Allowing and encouraging private businesses the use of outdoor space
- Active and accessible waterfront and public areas
One of the first posts I referenced talked about stadiums and sports teams being the consequence of a city's success, not the cause. I think the same goes for convention centers. Other urbanists agree (http://www.citylab.com/work/2013/04/urban-toolkit-we-have-winner/5226/)
Our problem is we have an obsolete convention center in our future intermodal center. We also have a struggling heavily subsidized convention center hotel and retail center one mile east of what should be next door. Doing nothing means we're screwing the pooch with several other things that need to be properly addressed in the downtown core.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 06, 2014, 01:02:48 PM
Our problem is we have an obsolete convention center in our future intermodal center. We also have a struggling heavily subsidized convention center hotel and retail center one mile east of what should be next door. Doing nothing means we're screwing the pooch with several other things that need to be properly addressed in the downtown core.
Agreed. There are many things that need to be done. It's more than a convention center, it's about sparking development and getting people to occupy the urban core, preferably both visitors and permanent residents.
Unfortunately, we haven't spent 40 years doing either. If I'm correct, it was either building the Adams Mark or Clarkson's Marriott next door to the Prime Osborn. How, did we end up selecting the Adams Mark? Was it based on enhancing the Prime Osborn's ability to draw business? Also, didn't Delaney consider giving $50 million in the BJP to improve the Prime Osborn? Why was that turned down?
Quote from: thelakelander on October 06, 2014, 02:37:09 PM
Unfortunately, we haven't spent 40 years doing either. If I'm correct, it was either building the Adams Mark or Clarkson's Marriott next door to the Prime Osborn. How, did we end up selecting the Adams Mark? Was it based on enhancing the Prime Osborn's ability to draw business? Also, didn't Delaney consider giving $50 million in the BJP to improve the Prime Osborn? Why was that turned down?
16 years and neither location draws any significant convention business:
http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/042498/opl_frioppag.html (http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/042498/opl_frioppag.html)
Hmm, 16 years later and Interstate's reasons for backing out have turned out to be true..
QuoteIt's easy to understand why Interstate, based in Pittsburgh, is having second thoughts.
The Adam's Mark Hotel, planned for property now occupied by the old City Hall parking lot and the vacant Daniel State Office Building, would have 950 rooms with tons of meeting, banquet and exhibition space.
And, as described to the JEDC and DDA yesterday, the $126 million, 17-story hotel would be first-class with majestic river views, fancy restaurants and upscale shops, not to mention a rooftop swimming pool and health club.
It would dwarf the Mariott. Interstate had planned a $52 million hotel with 400 rooms.
Interstate told city officials Wednesday the addition of a huge Adam's Mark Hotel to the market would change the projections it used to determine whether its hotel would be financially feasible.
The suspicion is that Jacksonville couldn't support the sudden addition of 1,400 rooms downtown.
Interstate's basic message was: Build Adam's Mark and we won't come.
For his part, Clarkson is supportive of the Adam's Mark project even though it could kill the hotel he's been trying to get built for more than a decade.
He said last week that as a long-time advocate of downtown, he had to favor a project that could finally turn downtown into a center for activity day and night.
If the Interstate deal falls through, it could further damage the viability of the Prime Osborn as a convention center.
If the Adam's Mark is built, it would have the advantage of being able to provide convention space surrounded by 950 guest rooms.
It's unlikely that Jacksonville could support two convention centers, especially one that had no hotel rooms near it.
http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/042498/opl_frioppag.html
Btw, what happened to the fancy shops and restaurants?
Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 06, 2014, 11:52:13 AM
Quote(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Voila_Capture2014-10-06_11-18-12_AM_zps7ef882a0.jpg)
ENID OK
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Voila_Capture2014-10-06_11-07-59_AM_zpsa0c12b8e.jpg)
Grand Rapids MI
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Voila_Capture2014-10-06_11-35-18_AM_zps905bed3e.jpg)
Sioux Falls SD
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Voila_Capture2014-10-06_11-38-20_AM_zps3f15238e.jpg)
Riverside CA
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Voila_Capture2014-10-06_11-32-29_AM_zps26c8404b.jpg)
Las Cruces NM
I can't see myself excited to be attending a convention at any of these locations, except Riverside CA, during the winter months. I agree, Jax has so much to offer, but many locals don't see it.
Yes, I know a bit about the Adam's Mark. Basically, there were two bids for downtown hotels at the same time. Let's put it this way: Adam's Mark requested $20 million in incentives for $126 million, 950 room hotel in the heart of the Downtown riverfront. Bucky Clarkson requested nearly the same amount ($17 million I believe) for a $52 million (!), 400 room hotel that wasn't near anything (he billed it as a "convention hotel", but it was a good 2 blocks from the convention center).
There were also questions about the wisdom of incentivizing a hotel way out there when there was the prospect of eventually moving the Convention Center, and it turned out Clarkson had a tendency to... exaggerate the prospects of his bid. The stronger bid got the incentives and broke ground. Clarkson spent the next several years trying to torpedo the other project and doing nothing with the land. The funny thing is that the city probably would have awarded Clarkson some incentives too (though $17 million was ridiculous), but he made himself such a thorn in everyone's side that no one wanted to deal with him.
Many events are held by local industries and organizations. Not every event is all about pulling in tourist from other areas. I've been to Grand Rapids a few times. It's a surprising Midwestern city with a downtown that is more vibrant than Jacksonville's. Overall, it appeared that not as much urban renewal had taken place in its urban core and it blended in seamlessly with Riverside/Avondale type urban neighborhoods just to the east of it.
Some pics from my 2008 visit:
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/plog-content/thumbs/learning-from/grand-rapidsmi/large/6042-p1140042.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6040-p1130976.JPG)
Grand Valley State University opened an urban branch campus in downtown Grand Rapids in the 1990s. The campus has grown and now includes on-campus housing.
In 2008, it appeared that Grand Rapids had been pretty successful in attracting residential development back to the core:
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6056-p1130947.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6066-p1130954.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6067-p1140040.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6062-p1140021.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6052-p1130951.JPG)
Jax is finally getting a couple of roof top bars. Grand Rapids already had a few in 2008:
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6063-p1130982.JPG)