Stephen, can you tell me if the outreach efforts being made by the church include in any way a potential change in attitude about the gay members of our community and their rights? I know Pastor Brunson was very vocal in his position against the GLBT community and heavily lobbied against that bill at city hall. He feared the GLBT using the churches facilities etc. and them being unable to turn them away. I am just wondering how sincere their desire is to include all of our citizens when embracing our downtown? Also, what is their view on the bars and lounges? No snark intended here. Just asking where they stand today on these issues.
That's a thought and something to consider. As a non church member, what is your view on the issue?
Quote from: stephendare on April 26, 2014, 03:59:31 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on April 26, 2014, 03:24:38 PM
That's a thought and something to consider. As a non church member, what is your view on the issue?
I consider it too complex to have a view, to be honest. Especially as you might have some insight into my personal life perhaps you can understand why.
But aside from how people deal with complex issues, I dont think it has a bearing on how landowners and large institutions should work together downtown.
I can tell you from experience that there isnt any of the "Walk the Plank" rhetoric coming from FBC these days. They arent asking anyone to be 'removed' from downtown. Whether they are gay, or straight, or homeless, or poor, or wealthy, or black, or white.
These days thats coming from the atheists like Chamblin and the alleged community spirited group of ethnic and class cleansers who actually destroyed downtown.
I would agree it is a very complex issue and having known you now for over a decade, I know how the issue impacts you personally. I don't completely agree with the idea that a landlords position on some sizable issues should not impact how they are integrated into downtown. I know there are some perhaps many who are not going to embrace the church unless it embraces them. I do think their views about downtown and the establishments like bars, lounges and restaurants serving liquor or that have a clients that are of the GLBT community should be understood. On a larger scale if they are serious about embracing downtown, we need to at least hope that they are ready to embrace all the people of Jacksonville as downtown is representative in many ways of our city.
Quote from: stephendare on April 26, 2014, 04:40:14 PM
Well I certainly do not agree with the world view offered by companies like Merril Lynch and some of the less established, shady investment firms in the downtown. And I certainly do not agree with the philosophy which led the JEA to pursue coal fire plants that have led to so much sickness and death in this city. But they are still members of downtown even if they do not embrace the opinions and lifestyles of everyone else either.
The thing that makes us Americans is our genius in learning how to get along civically with people that we vitally disagree with personally or philosophically, and allow the marketplace of ideas sort it out.
Overall, I would agree with that and hope that the church agrees with that as well. :)
Quote from: stephendare on April 26, 2014, 03:59:31 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on April 26, 2014, 03:24:38 PM
That's a thought and something to consider. As a non church member, what is your view on the issue?
I consider it too complex to have a view, to be honest. Especially as you might have some insight into my personal life perhaps you can understand why.
But aside from how people deal with complex issues, I dont think it has a bearing on how landowners and large institutions should work together downtown.
I can tell you from experience that there isnt any of the "Walk the Plank" rhetoric coming from FBC these days. They arent asking anyone to be 'removed' from downtown. Whether they are gay, or straight, or homeless, or poor, or wealthy, or black, or white.
These days thats coming from the atheists like Chamblin and the alleged community spirited group of ethnic and class cleansers who actually destroyed downtown.
I call BS.
It's very simple. If First Baptist has a positive view, then say so. If it's the opposite, say that too.
If FB is making the issues "too complex," then shame on them for muddling a simple issue.
As for the personal barbs at Ron, I find them pretty uncalled for, as he's done more for downtown as 99% of the people on this forum.
Off topic but, there have been many glowing articles on Metrojacksonville about Ron's bookstore and how it has helped save historic structures as well as creating some needed residential. He may be a curmudgeon but he has done many good things from opening his bookstore to offering it as a meeting place and more. Like in all things some personalities clash. lol
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-may-inside-downtowns-newest-bookstore-chamblins-uptown
QuoteConsidering the building housing Chamblin's was mostly vacant for the past two decades, this is a shining example of what creative urban pioneers can do with smaller older structures if they are allowed to survive our city's love affair with the wrecking ball.
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2012-may-downtown-residential-project-underway
LOL Stephen, so it really is a bit more than just a bookstore right? I hope others with small business ventures will follow his lead in the area of business but perhaps not embrace all of his rhetoric. lol
I'm not sure where this conversation began - or how. But what we know for sure is that less than 2 years ago FBC's leadership was so against LGBT rights in Jacksonville that their Senior Pastor participated in a letter campaign with other fundamentalist churches to oppose the HRO amendment. We know that Pastor Brunson personally appeared in Council chambers to denounce the HRO and ask the Councilmembers to defeat it.
And we know that soon after the ultimate defeat in August 2012 that the 10 Councilmembers voting against the measure were thanked, honored, and recognized from the pulpit of the church.
I understand FBC continues to support a so-called "ex-gay" ministry that is antithetical to the very lives of LGBT people in Jacksonville. And I further understand that earlier this year they had a very offensive seminar as part of their Jacksonville Pastors' Conference that was as anti-gay as can be imagined. The seminar title and description follow.
While I'm sure there are some within the church who have changed their minds and hearts, the official FBC position from 2012 and 2014 is really no mystery.
Seminar:
Ministering to Families with Same-Sex Attraction
Led by parents who had a child succumb to the pressures of homosexuality and now have a ministry to help other parents, this seminar will help you better understand same-sex attraction. It will also help you to be better equipped to minister to individuals dealing with same-sex attraction as well as their families.
Edit to add: "These seminars are made available to you through FBC JAX church leadership, FBC JAX members, exhibitors and sponsors of the conference, and several ministries that have valuable information to share. Choose the topics that best address your needs!" http://www.jaxpastorsconference.com/conference/seminars
Quote from: Jimmy on April 26, 2014, 09:23:16 PM
I'm not sure where this conversation began - or how. But what we know for sure is that less than 2 years ago FBC's leadership was so against LGBT rights in Jacksonville that their Senior Pastor participated in a letter campaign with other fundamentalist churches to oppose the HRO amendment. We know that Pastor Brunson personally appeared in Council chambers to denounce the HRO and ask the Councilmembers to defeat it.
And we know that soon after the ultimate defeat in August 2012 that the 10 Councilmembers voting against the measure were thanked, honored, and recognized from the pulpit of the church.
I understand FBC continues to support a so-called "ex-gay" ministry that is antithetical to the very lives of LGBT people in Jacksonville. And I further understand that earlier this year they had a very offensive seminar as part of their Jacksonville Pastors' Conference that was as anti-gay as can be imagined. The seminar title and description follow.
While I'm sure there are some within the church who have changed their minds and hearts, the official FBC position from 2012 and 2014 is really no mystery.
Seminar:
Ministering to Families with Same-Sex Attraction
Led by parents who had a child succumb to the pressures of homosexuality and now have a ministry to help other parents, this seminar will help you better understand same-sex attraction. It will also help you to be better equipped to minister to individuals dealing with same-sex attraction as well as their families.
Edit to add: "These seminars are made available to you through FBC JAX church leadership, FBC JAX members, exhibitors and sponsors of the conference, and several ministries that have valuable information to share. Choose the topics that best address your needs!" http://www.jaxpastorsconference.com/conference/seminars
Jimmy, are they still offering these seminars?
I have no doubt that the lingering hate will die off in due course. Younger evangelicals have no problem with their LGBT brothers and sisters. They're much more interested in saving the planet and helping the poor. Like support for slavery and opposition to mixed-marriages, even the Southern Baptist Conference will eventually let go of anti-gay hate and bias.
But that's not much help or hope for the kids going through biblically-based "reparative therapy" today. Another generation of self-hate, the closet, and worse. Just my opinion as well. A statement of support from FBC on the HRO would do wonders for the city and for the kids looking for love and understanding from their church.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on April 26, 2014, 09:38:23 PM
Jimmy, are they still offering these seminars?
Yeah, Diane, I think so. That was from January 25 of this year. I think Stephen was there live-blogging? But I don't know if he attended that particular seminar.
And this is still on their website: http://www.fbcjax.com/downtown/announcements/id,449/what-would-jesus-do-a-response-to-city-ordinance
I have no doubt - like I said, I imagine hearts and minds are changing. But there's no way to know what the average Joe in the pew thinks. I have to assume they agree with the way their church leaders spend the resources provided through their offerings. At this point, that includes sending the Senior Pastor to fight against civil rights and organizing seminars for parents who've had a child "succumb to the pressures of homosexuality."
I have to say honestly that I don't know if there's still an active ex-gay ministry at FBC, or not. I know for a fact there was an ministry of Eleutheros at FBC for many years. That stuff is starting to fall away, though, already, like you say. When Exodus closed down that was a huge step forward.
Quote from: stephendare on April 26, 2014, 09:50:57 PM
Diane last time I checked, the course was offered, but there were no attendees. That might be true still, like I said, come to coffee with us and ask them yourself.
Well that is quite telling. :) Good to know.
Quote from: Jimmy on April 26, 2014, 09:52:04 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on April 26, 2014, 09:38:23 PM
Jimmy, are they still offering these seminars?
Yeah, Diane, I think so. That was from January 25 of this year. I think Stephen was there live-blogging? But I don't know if he attended that particular seminar.
And this is still on their website: http://www.fbcjax.com/downtown/announcements/id,449/what-would-jesus-do-a-response-to-city-ordinance
This is not so good. Have mercy. I truly hope things are changing and in my heart I believe they are. The young folk today do not hold so many of these judgements and that is a very good sign of what is to come. imo
Quote from: stephendare on April 26, 2014, 09:59:13 PM
Quote from: Jimmy on April 26, 2014, 09:23:16 PM
I'm not sure where this conversation began - or how. But what we know for sure is that less than 2 years ago FBC's leadership was so against LGBT rights in Jacksonville that their Senior Pastor participated in a letter campaign with other fundamentalist churches to oppose the HRO amendment. We know that Pastor Brunson personally appeared in Council chambers to denounce the HRO and ask the Councilmembers to defeat it.
And we know that soon after the ultimate defeat in August 2012 that the 10 Councilmembers voting against the measure were thanked, honored, and recognized from the pulpit of the church.
I understand FBC continues to support a so-called "ex-gay" ministry that is antithetical to the very lives of LGBT people in Jacksonville. And I further understand that earlier this year they had a very offensive seminar as part of their Jacksonville Pastors' Conference that was as anti-gay as can be imagined. The seminar title and description follow.
While I'm sure there are some within the church who have changed their minds and hearts, the official FBC position from 2012 and 2014 is really no mystery.
Seminar:
Ministering to Families with Same-Sex Attraction
Led by parents who had a child succumb to the pressures of homosexuality and now have a ministry to help other parents, this seminar will help you better understand same-sex attraction. It will also help you to be better equipped to minister to individuals dealing with same-sex attraction as well as their families.
Edit to add: "These seminars are made available to you through FBC JAX church leadership, FBC JAX members, exhibitors and sponsors of the conference, and several ministries that have valuable information to share. Choose the topics that best address your needs!" http://www.jaxpastorsconference.com/conference/seminars
Well in fairness, this is a pan spectrum conference, a representation of the entire denomination in its diversity. The conferences do not represent the practice and on site programs at First Baptist in Jacksonville specifically. There were hundreds of small seminars, Jimmy. It would be like conflating S&M marchers at a Pride Parade with the entire GLBT community. As you say I was there, and this particular seminar, as I remember was very very small. It was like a breakout group actually.
On the other hand, one of the Main Speakers for the entire convention was controversial for his even handed treatment of gays and baptist doctrine, and yet he was still invited to speak. And anyways, I think you would be hard pressed to find a Baptist congregation that is sex supportive in the modern sense no matter what your gender or orientation. It would be like finding the Beef Wellington supporters at a Vegan convention.
There is diversity of opinion within the Baptist spectrum, you know. Its like thinking there is a universal MetroJacksonville opinion.
Oh gosh. lol lol, part of your statement brought the old T.V. commercials of Jerry Vines to mind. Do you remember the ones talking about how God supports active sex between a man and a woman featuring him and his wife with her hair done up in a french twist. That is something I will never get out of my mind. lmao
^Hehehehe. Tell you what, just the visual of Jerry Vines, his wife and repairing sexual dysfunction is creepy. My opinion of course. :)
Quote from: stephendare on April 26, 2014, 10:39:23 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on April 26, 2014, 10:35:43 PM
^Hehehehe. Tell you what, just the visual of Jerry Vines, his wife and repairing sexual dysfunction is creepy. My opinion of course. :)
Although there is something to be said for being able to still find your spouse sexually moving after more than thirty years, I think. If I was looking for how to sustain a lifelong sexual relationship, I would certainly take the opinion of elder people who have long since lost their youthful blush pretty seriously. ;)
Let me tell you Stephen as you get older, it becomes less and less important to what makes for a lasting relationship. But I really can't imagine any creative/exciting advice on ones sex life coming from elderly clergymen. lmao :) I think it is basically, man on top get it over with quickly if I recollect the church teachings on this from my own youth. Hahaha
My goodness, I get up from my first sleep of the night, and find this thread about FBC and their relation to LGBT's, having within it a snipe at me, and a defense or two. Thanks Ben, and Diane, and Stephen too, as you've moderated your attacks somewhat.
Yes, I do have a little difficulty fitting into the core, as I am a non-believer, an atheist, and most in and around the core seem not to be. But this forum has helped me tremendously, as it has allowed me to argue and learn how best to tender my opinions concerning my freedom from believing in revealed religions. Whereas my early posts are rather insensitive and crude, to the degree that I avoid reviewing them, I like to think that my arguments now are more considerate to others, and to the realities of believing, and not believing. I recall the posts wherein I was very unreasonable as I expressed my dissatisfaction with the large church presence in the core.
I was using the forum as a vehicle to express what I thought to be good representations of my thinking about the church and about religion. Exercising one's writing, and thus one's thinking, is the wonderful thing about this forum, and one reason I support it.
As far as my place being only a bookshop / cafe .. well, I guess that's all it is. But the game aint over yet. And I am progressing on my next core project in the 225 building. If I were thirty or forty again, I would keep "doing buildings", little ones, one at a time, until we filled them all. This will be my last building.
I've never said much about the LGBT issue, perhaps because it is complex and sensitive. During the fifties, when I was in school, we would hear of these illusive, secret, persons called queers. I don't remember the term "gay" at that time. There was no media coverage regarding gay/lesbian -- at least I don't remember any --, so us naive fellows wondered if these creatures really existed. Life went on, and us naive, ignorant, fellows engaged our need for and fear of "girls".
I remember in the late seventies, I began to get gay/lesbian books traded in at the bookstore. I would wonder .. "What am I going to do with these things?" I had no real category set up for them. So I just placed the several books in a corner -- without a category sign. Currently, we have many hundreds of the LGBT titles, and have a sign .. LGBT.
It seems to me that most people these days are realizing that this LGBT thing is not going away, and that increasingly a relative, friend, co-worker, customer, or acquaintance ... is "one of them". I am amazed at the number of gays/lesbians in our city. Whereas years ago I would feel uncomfortable being around "one", I have come to accept the growing population, as I certainly cannot do anything to change things, and certainly have no reason or desire to do so. I consider gays and lesbians to be ... well, normal for the most part. I have settled to the opinion that there is nothing fundamentally wrong with being gay, and that if people like that choice ... that lifestyle .. let them have the freedom, just as I have my freedom. Who is anyone, to decide on other's choice of friendship, love, or sex?
And this high frequency of LGBT persons seems to give credibility or approval to those engaging the lifestyle. Apparently the bible says something about gays, so it is understandable that most churches are finding themselves in awkward positions. It seems that many have moderated their rhetoric against the gay community.
Yes ... it is a complex and sensitive issue, as one can obtain sexual gratification in all sorts of ways .. with all sorts of partners. Who is to decide how, what, or who is to be part of that process of sexual gratification? Freedom, consideration, and respect is what is needed .... whether it comes from individuals, governments, or churches.
The idea of sin, as proffered by some evangelical churches, encourages guilt, and thus depression, awkwardness, fear, and suffering.
Nice thoughtful response Ron. :)
Well put Ron. I do see you guys have been busy and if I have any services I may offer to help you in your endeavors please feel free to let me know. I would welcome the opportunity to talk to you.
Well it was well put by Ron I would say with the exception of his comments about nothing fundamentally wrong with being gay and if people like that "choice", more freedom to them. Hmmm. Aren't we past the gay thing being a choice?
Quote from: edjax on April 27, 2014, 11:29:08 PM
Well it was well put by Ron I would say with the exception of his comments about nothing fundamentally wrong with being gay and if people like that "choice", more freedom to them. Hmmm. Aren't we past the gay thing being a choice?
Ed, its Ron. In Ron speak he likes gay folks just fine and their personal life is their personal life. lol
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on April 27, 2014, 11:36:08 PM
Quote from: edjax on April 27, 2014, 11:29:08 PM
Well it was well put by Ron I would say with the exception of his comments about nothing fundamentally wrong with being gay and if people like that "choice", more freedom to them. Hmmm. Aren't we past the gay thing being a choice?
Ed, its Ron. In Ron speak he likes gay folks just fine and their personal life is their personal life. lol
lol I think the quotes he put in his reply is an indication to general speak. In my honest opinion he made that statement all together as general as he could to avoid making people fuss about the topic. It is one of the most touchy ones on the market as of now. Next to racism that is. It's over analyzed word for word.
Quote from: stephendare on April 28, 2014, 12:26:33 AM
meh. its a viewpoint from the swaggery 1970s at best. And you know people are still committing suicide, passing death penalties and kidnapping and torturing people for being gay, so Im not sure its about the 'term' being 'touchy'.
just saying.
I wasn't talking about the terms being touchy I was saying the subject itself is one of the touchiest.
okay i re-read this a couple times and see where it went off course... i saw your quotes touchy and terms... Upon further review I note that the quotes were insertions of the sarcastic air quotes type.
I am well aware of the statistics you mentioned. I also participated in several campaigns throughout California opposing such violence and many more hours advocating for various campaigns such as be a star, NOH8 and so forth. I just said it's a touchy subject. Which it is.
I never denied that there are violent instances regarding people's sexuality. In fact i never even mentioned anything pertaining to that i thought it was okay. Just seems more like a conclusion before you knew my whole view on it.
I do apologize if you may have seen that otherwise. And I am actually no longer going to entertain this topic as I have the same views as you.
Quote from: stephendare on April 28, 2014, 10:04:39 AM
lol, no problem auditore. I am glad you are posting btw. Great commentary.
I just thought I would take the chance and underline the issue that its not just the churches that have a history of intolerance or misunderstanding the issues. Its a lot of people.
Even people who are 'for' the gays, honestly have no idea that reducing glbt issues to 'sexual gratification' or 'choice' is kind of missing the whole past 20 years of public conversation.
Its like glbt people didnt just spend a generation caring for each other, nursing loved ones through AIDS related health issues, burying their dead, contributing their entire estates for research, and reaching out to help glbt teens who have been committing suicide over their identity for the entire 20th Century.
Much less learning how to come out, be in love, search for some happiness, raise the families that they were already involved in, make new ones, etc.
Its a complex issue on both sides, and the ignorance I think, is based in the idea of trying to simplify the entire panorama down to 'sexual gratification' choices.
And to be honest, I think people are beginning to see these issues as more nuanced and broader. But change comes hard for people who have been taught something their entire lives. Patience and understanding for people as they go through that process seems to help I guess.
Although I dont think that any undue patience is necessary for the politicians who are supposed to be representing the public. They have a job to do, and that is to fairly act in the interests of the public. They signed up for that job and spent a lot of money for the privilege of having the responsibility.
lol I am trying to be involved, but I am running a business so at the same time I am trying to be cautious lol. Thanks though Stephen. I am gonna try and make it out to the coffee joint tonight also.
Been thinking about this gay thing again. Sorry. Insomnia.
I've always suggested that the earth should have only about 500 or so million human types living upon it ... that we humans should, as much as possible, return the earth to the less destructive non-human animals ... to nature in other words. Obviously the overwhelming majority of us humans tend to favor profit and material wealth over all other concerns, and have little time or concern for the health of the small globe upon which we live. We tend to consume without end .... to be greedy ... and to destroy whatever is good in the process.
The good thing is that the increasing freedoms allowing more individuals to more comfortably live with, and love, a same sex partner has the unexpected benefit to the earth's ecosystem in that it offers a trend to reduce the earth's population. How many gay persons have children?
Whereas wars, famine, natural disasters, and disease act to reduce the world's population, the "gay factor" does so without the condition of suffering. Therefore, mother earth should welcome the gay relationships, as they ultimately improve the ecosystem, the earths health, and thus the wellbeing of all earth's humans, via population reduction.
Quote from: Apache on April 29, 2014, 06:00:21 AM
Quote from: ronchamblin on April 29, 2014, 02:12:49 AM
Been thinking about this gay thing again. Sorry. Insomnia.
I've always suggested that the earth should have only about 500 or so million human types living upon it ... that we humans should, as much as possible, return the earth to the less destructive non-human animals ... to nature in other words. Obviously the overwhelming majority of us humans tend to favor profit and material wealth over all other concerns, and have little time or concern for the health of the small globe upon which we live. We tend to consume without end .... to be greedy ... and to destroy whatever is good in the process.
The good thing is that the increasing freedoms allowing more individuals to more comfortably live with, and love, a same sex partner has the unexpected benefit to the earth's ecosystem in that it offers a trend to reduce the earth's population. How many gay persons have children?
Whereas wars, famine, natural disasters, and disease act to reduce the world's population, the "gay factor" does so without the condition of suffering. Therefore, mother earth should welcome the gay relationships, as they ultimately improve the ecosystem, the earths health, and thus the wellbeing of all earth's humans, via population reduction.
You should really find a way to get some sleep
;) ;D
Quote from: ronchamblin on April 29, 2014, 02:12:49 AM
Been thinking about this gay thing again. Sorry. Insomnia.
I've always suggested that the earth should have only about 500 or so million human types living upon it ... that we humans should, as much as possible, return the earth to the less destructive non-human animals ... to nature in other words. Obviously the overwhelming majority of us humans tend to favor profit and material wealth over all other concerns, and have little time or concern for the health of the small globe upon which we live. We tend to consume without end .... to be greedy ... and to destroy whatever is good in the process.
The good thing is that the increasing freedoms allowing more individuals to more comfortably live with, and love, a same sex partner has the unexpected benefit to the earth's ecosystem in that it offers a trend to reduce the earth's population. How many gay persons have children?
Whereas wars, famine, natural disasters, and disease act to reduce the world's population, the "gay factor" does so without the condition of suffering. Therefore, mother earth should welcome the gay relationships, as they ultimately improve the ecosystem, the earths health, and thus the wellbeing of all earth's humans, via population reduction.
Well damn. Since the gays have such a big job in front of them to save Mother Earth we better get more people to choose the gay lifestyle. Sign ups at the bookstore on weekends?
My post was meant to be an observation from my position of being neutral on this thing, not wanting to promote or prevent, but acting mainly as a journalist, which is what I want to be when I grow up.
I observe from the sidelines, as many journalists do, and find myself wondering if it might be appropriate for some, during some events, to display a banner saying "Gay is Green", based on the idea that the gays in some small measure relieve the population pressure on the suffering mother earth simply because their relationships do not produce offspring.
The southern baptis convention will never accept gay people equally..they must by their own charter declare gays as an abomination in the eyes of their so called "god"
Why should I or any Gay person care what Baptists think about gay people ? I am not Baptist and I never will be ...Live and let live...Why all this attention to FBC? This plays right into their inflated sense of themselves and if Jacksonville is ever going to grow and "Aim High" we need to stop thinking like this..
Quote from: ronchamblin on April 29, 2014, 02:12:49 AM
How many gay persons have children?
An estimated 37% of LGBT-identified adults have had a child at some time in their lives.
An estimated 3 million LGBT Americans have had a child and as many as 6 million American children and adults have an LGBT parent.
Among those under age 50 who are living alone or with a spouse or partner, nearly half of LGBT women (48%) are raising a child under age 18 along with a fifth of LGBT men (20%).
More than 125,000 same-sex couple households (19%) include nearly 220,000 children under age 18.
http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/LGBT-Parenting.pdf
I see..If it wasn't asked by a gay person why bother? Who cares what FBC thinks ? Lets wonder what Immaculate Cathedral thinks or Riverside Presbyterian or St.Justin Martyr Orthodox Church thinks if what they think matters at all.
Quote from: stephendare on April 29, 2014, 09:30:31 AM
lol. You might be surprised by how many straight people there are Stephen. ;)
And they multiply like rabbits and flaunt their heterosexuality in the streets with prideful abandon. :\
;)
and they are living in Avondale...Call "We love Avondale" or RAP.. I knew this would happen when Mellow Mushroom opened..Pizza always brings in straights
Quote from: Stephen on April 29, 2014, 10:45:37 AM
and they are living in Avondale...Call "We love Avondale" or RAP.. I knew this would happen when Mellow Mushroom opened..Pizza always brings in straights
Side note... Is mellow mushroom even any good... I haven't made it there yet.