I-95/I-10 Operational Improvements Conceptual Plans
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3072959515_6qqj7fL-M.jpg)
Metro Jacksonville shares the Florida Department of Transportation's (FDOT) conceptual plans for the widening of the Fuller Warren Bridge and the addition of a Roosevelt Boulevard flyover.
Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-feb-i-95i-10-operational-improvements-conceptual-plans
So this came directly from the FDOT and MJ did not write this, correct?
We will be interested to see where they will put the new retention ponds in the Riverside area and the equipment staging areas for the new Stockton Street ramp.
Quote from: Kay on February 13, 2014, 06:54:48 AM
So this came directly from the FDOT and MJ did not write this, correct?
Correct. Right off the website, linked as the source.
Nice aerial view of the city on the top post.
Kay, et al, there is now a website devoted to the project:
www.10and95.com
What blew me away is that when they first started the bridge building in 2005, the design at the time figured the bridge would carry 210,000 vehicles per day, but by 2015, they expect the number to be more like 250,000 per day and by 2040 will be 290,000. You know what we get when they assume?!?!?!
Something is going to happen because the bridge is obsolete in terms of the number of cars being carried and FDOT seems hell bent on fixing what they did not fix the first go-round, even if a few neighbors say no.
By 2040 we won't be driving cars anyway, they will be driving themselves and be doing a whole lot better job of it than we are now. That will more than solve any capacity problems.
Are we the only city in the US besides Atlanta that isn't smart enough to re-route the interstate AROUND the city rather than through the middle of it. Tampa and St. Petersburg did, why can't we?
Quote from: Dog Walker on February 13, 2014, 09:03:53 AM
Are we the ONLY city in the US besides Atlanta that isn't smart enough to re-route the interstate AROUND the city rather than through the middle of it. Tampa and St. Petersburg did, why can't we?
That ship has long sailed. Interstate highways built near major cities' downtowns are VERY common; I'll even say that more do than don't.
I think it's quite good that the Xways go through Jax rather than around. If anything, I would like to see more well-built exit ramps, encouraging some of those quarter-million cars to pull off and 'sit a spell'. Tourists, that is...
^^^Well said.
^^^I-95 goes through Southbank DT (which many don't consider the core) but just edges Northbank DT.
One goal of the SR 9B project is to facilitate a downtown bypass for north/south I-95 traffic. When SR 9B is connected to I-95 the mileage is actually shorter to take it and I-295 around the east. Of course, this doesn't help with I-10 traffic, but it should keep some through traffic out of the core.
Quote from: I-10east on February 13, 2014, 09:30:11 AM
^^^I-95 goes through Southbank DT (which many don't consider the core) but just edges Northbank DT.
It's still enough to kill connectivity between the Southbank and San Marco. After Thr hack job that the city did to separate DT and Springfield, we need more connection between all parts if downtown and the core neighborhoods. I don't think an additional 100 foot wide raised roadway will do much to that end.
Quote from: I-10east on February 13, 2014, 09:11:08 AM
Quote from: Dog Walker on February 13, 2014, 09:03:53 AM
Are we the ONLY city in the US besides Atlanta that isn't smart enough to re-route the interstate AROUND the city rather than through the middle of it. Tampa and St. Petersburg did, why can't we?
That ship has long sailed. Interstate highways built near major cities' downtowns are VERY common; I'll even say that more do than don't.
No it has not.
Truck traffic can be re-routed to the beltway... something most major cities require.
^^^I didn't say anything about truck traffic, LOL
Quote from: I-10east on February 13, 2014, 09:11:08 AM
Quote from: Dog Walker on February 13, 2014, 09:03:53 AM
Are we the ONLY city in the US besides Atlanta that isn't smart enough to re-route the interstate AROUND the city rather than through the middle of it. Tampa and St. Petersburg did, why can't we?
That ship has long sailed. Interstate highways built near major cities' downtowns are VERY common; I'll even say that more do than don't.
True. Just stating a fact but most major cities do have interstate highways that go through their urban cores and downtown. Just south of us, I-4 nearly splits DT Orlando in half. I-275 and I-4 (both of which is older than I-75 in Hillsborough) penetrated DT Tampa. The Crosstown/Lee Roy Selmon does too on the south end. To top it off, they just built an elevated 1 mile expressway to connect the Selmon and I-4 in Ybor. In Jax, that would be similar to turning State & Union into an elevated expressway between the Mathews and I-95.
Many of these highway paths were selected as a means to divide urban communities by race and economic demographics in the 50s and 60s. I-95 in Jax is no different.
Quote from: I-10east on February 13, 2014, 10:07:23 AM
^^^I didn't say anything about truck traffic, LOL
You don't see the point.
If traffic counts allegedly necesitate further road expansion that encroaches even further into neighborhoods (neighborhoods they have already destroyed previously)... then why can't alternative solutions be sought that do not include the unecessary disruption of quality of life in our community?
This entire thing is a fiasco, was not in any long term plans and is just FDOT trying to pull a quick one in order to keep the road construction machine fed. For what? F@ck that! Not this time.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 13, 2014, 10:09:12 AM
Many of these highway paths were selected as a means to divide urban communities by race and economic demographics in the 50s and 60s. I-95 in Jax is no different.
Explain that more thoroughly concerning Jax Lake. Believe me, I get the eminent domain 'tearing down poor communities to build hwys etc. I don't see any of our highways having that 'other side of the tracks' rich/poor contrast in the past. With Jax, it seems like the river itself had that demographic effect, moreso than the highways.
Quote from: stephendare on February 13, 2014, 10:16:22 AM
We have two that both go through the actual core. Not as usual.
I think there are a few other cities (LA with 5 and 10) and Atlanta. But there are differences in the heavy use of the traffic. Some interstates are just higher volume than others, and 95 connects the entire eastern seaboard, while 10 connects the east and west coast.
In Atlanta a lot of the damage was handled by the Perimeter. And most cities have a perimeter system in place to handle the kind of volume brought by the Interstates.
Jax's situation is not unusual and the I-95 traffic counts pale in comparison with highways cutting through first tier cities (we're probably a third tier American city at best). There are several cities out there that have it worst than we do. Just in Florida alone, Miami (3), Tampa (2) and Orlando (2) have multiple expressways with higher traffic counts that actually penetrate or get close to their historic downtown cores.
Now what is unusual are cities that have successfully kept major highways from penetrating their cores and those that have dismantled them.
Quote from: stephendare on February 13, 2014, 10:34:20 AM
Quote from: I-10east on February 13, 2014, 10:19:48 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on February 13, 2014, 10:09:12 AM
Many of these highway paths were selected as a means to divide urban communities by race and economic demographics in the 50s and 60s. I-95 in Jax is no different.
Explain that more thoroughly concerning Jax Lake. Believe me, I get the eminent domain 'tearing down poor communities to build hwys etc. I don't see any of our highways having that 'other side of the tracks' rich/poor contrast in the past. With Jax, it seems like the river itself had that demographic effect, moreso than the highways.
We didnt tear down poor black communities for the interstate, we tore down the wealthy ones.
And black/latin and southern mediterraneans lived and owned land on both sides of the river.
Clifton is in Arlington after all, as was the basis of the Sammis fortune.
Once the ethnic cleansers of the Pork Chop Gang sank their teeth into infrastructure, it was all about removing black and white adjacency and equity.
The Jacksonville Expressway (which is 95) was built on the bones of Black Upper Class heritage, when it tore down the old Sugar Hill neighborhood.
True. The Jacksonville Expressway (now I-95) also served as a wall between black and white. At the time, Durkeeville, Moncrief, etc. were black neighborhoods while Brentwood, Panama Park, Springfield, etc. were white neighborhoods. It's more than coincidence that I-95 is pretty close to where the ethnic divide was at the time.
Look across the country and you'll find this Robert Moses style planning all over the place. For example, Detroit's Chinatown got taken out for I-75.
Quote from: stephendare on February 13, 2014, 10:34:20 AM
We didnt tear down poor black communities for the interstate, we tore down the wealthy ones.
And black/latin and southern mediterraneans lived and owned land on both sides of the river.
Clifton is in Arlington after all, as was the basis of the Sammis fortune.
Once the ethnic cleansers of the Pork Chop Gang sank their teeth into infrastructure, it was all about removing black and white adjacency and equity.
The Jacksonville Expressway (which is 95) was built on the bones of Black Upper Class heritage, when it tore down the old Sugar Hill neighborhood.
Thanks for the info Stephen.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 13, 2014, 10:36:10 AM
Quote from: stephendare on February 13, 2014, 10:16:22 AM
We have two that both go through the actual core. Not as usual.
I think there are a few other cities (LA with 5 and 10) and Atlanta. But there are differences in the heavy use of the traffic. Some interstates are just higher volume than others, and 95 connects the entire eastern seaboard, while 10 connects the east and west coast.
In Atlanta a lot of the damage was handled by the Perimeter. And most cities have a perimeter system in place to handle the kind of volume brought by the Interstates.
Jax's situation is not unusual and the I-95 traffic counts pale in comparison with highways cutting through first tier cities (we're probably a third tier American city at best). There are several cities out there that have it worst than we do. Just in Florida alone, Miami (3), Tampa (2) and Orlando (2) have multiple expressways with higher traffic counts that actually penetrate or get close to their historic downtown cores.
Now what is unusual are cities that have successfully kept major highways from penetrating their cores and those that have dismantled them.
Richmond VA, Tampa/St. & Jacksonville all have in common is that all of the traffic had to go over bridges which create choke points. Richmond, Tampa/St. Pete have diverted interstate traffic around their cities to reduce the load on the bridges.
That's the smart solution. Continually expanding a roadway through the middle of a city is a dumb solution.
I'd argue that Richmond is worse off than Jax. 195 cuts off Richmond's downtown from the entire riverfront. It would be like running the Hart Bridge Expressway down Bay Street to connect to the Acosta and I-95.
I understand. I was just saying that there's nothing unusual about Jax's situation. In other words, in this case, I-10 is right on the money with his comment. I know we tend to treat Jax like it is unique and something special but it really is an "Anyplace USA" when it comes to stuff like this.
I-295 in Richmond essentially serves the same purpose as I-295 in Jax. I-75 in Tampa was built decades after I-275 and I-4 were constructed in the heart of that city. In both cases, these cities still have major interstate "choke points" in their urban cores (I'd argue moreso than I-95 in Jax since we're pretty overbuilt for our population when it comes to expressways). Truck traffic on expressway segments near their downtowns are still high as well. Quite frankly, most of the truck traffic is probably local in Richmond, Tampa and Jacksonville. If those guys aren't on the highway, then they are using local streets to access industry, railyards, warehouses and port terminals in each city.
Both Tampa and Richmond also have major interstate construction projects underway as well......speaking of which, I happened to get caught in a backup on Richmond's a few months ago. VDOT's I-95/I-64 $106 million project is expected to last 4 years. Plus where I-95 meets I-295, just north of Richmond, is a mess no one would want to see anywhere near Northeast Florida. If there is a stretch of highway that needs additional lanes, it's I-95 between Richmond and DC.
I didn't say anything about money. I just said I-10 was correct in this particular statement:
Quote from: I-10east on February 13, 2014, 09:11:08 AM
Quote from: Dog Walker on February 13, 2014, 09:03:53 AM
Are we the ONLY city in the US besides Atlanta that isn't smart enough to re-route the interstate AROUND the city rather than through the middle of it. Tampa and St. Petersburg did, why can't we?
That ship has long sailed. Interstate highways built near major cities' downtowns are VERY common; I'll even say that more do than don't.
But it's all the same at the end of the day. If someone wants to claim I-95 goes through downtown Jax, there's hundreds of similar examples across the country. If someone wants to claim I-95/I-10 are "near" downtown Jax, there's hundreds of similar examples across the country. No matter which term one uses, Jax's situation is not unique.
If you want to spin it that way, sure. It's so common that the two cities mentioned (Tampa and Richmond) have the same situation in (or near) their downtowns.
(http://cdn.destination360.com/north-america/us/virginia/richmond/doubletree-hotel-richmond-downtown-map.gif)
In Richmond, you have I-95 and SR 195 (which becomes I-195), just north of the James River. Here's a picture under SR 195 I took last Summer:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/2648784134_PXrNzmw-M.jpg)
^To me, a much worse situation, considering that this is in the historic heart of Richmond's downtown and not a mile away.
In Tampa, you have I-4 and I-275 coming together with a complex set of ramps just west of I-275's Hillsborough River bridge in downtown. In the image, you can see them just north of Tampa's downtown.
(http://helmofthepublicrealm.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/aerial-of-central-tampa.png)
I have hundreds of more examples. I'm a transportation planner who actually gets paid a good working man's wage to do just that. It might be best to move on from this one... ;)
To be precise, examples of limited access highways intersecting near rivers, bays, creeks, waterways, etc. This country literally turned its back on urban waterways for most of the 20th century. Find a major city with a river and 9 times out of 10, you'll discover a superhighway, two or three, nearby.
For example, most urbanist tend to hold Portland up as a model for places like Jacksonville to follow. Well, for all the LRT, streetcars, high density and all, it has a few examples of this surrounding its downtown...
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Downtown_Portland.png)
True Lake, but Portland is dealing with more constraints then we ever will. Just to the east and west of the river the land rises sharply into the Cascade and Coast Range of mountains, respectively. The inner belt is really a glorified split of the north-south interstate 5. All parts of this are about as far from the middle of the CBD as is our I-95 in LaVilla.
What hasn't been said is that Portland scrapped the entire north-south 'Waterfront Drive' freeway and replaced it with a lineal park, with multi use trails and streetcar. The former freeway took up the space we would identify as between the riverbank and Bay Street in Jacksonville and ran the length of downtown. The second huge freeway project, 'The Mount Hood Freeway', was killed and replaced by light-rail. The result has been an economic boom from downtown east into Gresham (a few miles from where I used to live). Oklahoma City has now done the same thing with I-40 in downtown. The freeway that once rubbed up to the Cox Arena downtown is now a half mile south. Rather like Jacksonville doing all of this 'improvement' on a new I-95 alignment from the Emerson exit straight north crossing the river around A.P.Randolph and curving back into the old highway near the Trout River.
Here's some before and after shots:
PORTLAND:
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Transporte%20Bus%20Truck%20HIGHWAY/ScreenShot2014-02-13at32240PM_zpscd3c5782.png)
Center of photo, the Mount Hood Freeway - project killed.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Transporte%20Bus%20Truck%20HIGHWAY/ScreenShot2014-02-13at32159PM_zpse50bc2e2.png)
Mount Hood Freeway model, Portland to Mount Hood, replaced by MAX LRT (light-rail)
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Transporte%20Bus%20Truck%20HIGHWAY/ScreenShot2014-02-13at32825PM_zpsa6cbe2c0.png)
Mount Hood Freeway? Imagine this 25 years from now on JTA's BRT... HA!
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Transporte%20Bus%20Truck%20HIGHWAY/ScreenShot2014-02-13at13827PM_zps32e3ba61.png)
Running from the lower right corner, note the freeway along the river.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Transporte%20Bus%20Truck%20HIGHWAY/ScreenShot2014-02-13at13758PM_zps50984f88.png)
Here's a post card from the Waterfront Drive in Portland.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Transporte%20Bus%20Truck%20HIGHWAY/ScreenShot2014-02-13at14414PM_zps3ea59673.png)
This is a rendering of the planned change to the freeway.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Transporte%20Bus%20Truck%20HIGHWAY/ScreenShot2014-02-13at13840PM_zpse2db3da3.png)
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Transporte%20Bus%20Truck%20HIGHWAY/ScreenShot2014-02-13at13851PM_zpsffa0ae71.png)
Both photos above: This is 'Waterfront Drive' today.
OKLAHOMA CITY
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/i40relocationaerial.jpg)
Map showing the I-40 relocation.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Transporte%20Bus%20Truck%20HIGHWAY/ScreenShot2014-02-13at25930PM_zpsb6b9b9db.png)
The Replacement of I-40, OKLAHOMA CITY BLVD.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Transporte%20Bus%20Truck%20HIGHWAY/ScreenShot2014-02-13at25433PM_zpsdeac7fb7.png)
Crossing the Blvd, here we see the new Streetcar entering the core by the historic Santa Fe (Amtrak) station from the Ford Center northbound, Bricktown is across the railroad.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Transporte%20Bus%20Truck%20HIGHWAY/ScreenShot2014-02-13at30540PM_zpsd1433d38.png)
Streetcar plan Zeta-A
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Transporte%20Bus%20Truck%20HIGHWAY/ScreenShot2014-02-13at30718PM_zps4e98ee69.png)
God know's Jacksonville my love, we can only hope!
It seems like 'rerouted truck traffic' is the all important buzz words right now. TBH, I don't think that Jax's truck traffic on the two-digit interstates, are a big deal; Nor do I think that Riverside's historical district is gonna be imperiled, because of some conjured, every growing twenty-two lane Fuller Warren Bridge that's destined to wipe out all of humanity...
When traffic gets heavy enough, WAY in the distant future, they'll eventually reroute the truck traffic. Believe me, Jax having a simple two lane 95 split (that some of yall loved apparently) like it's 1990 wouldn't be viable right now. Catch yall later. :)
Quote from: stephendare on February 13, 2014, 12:44:02 PM
But not interstates?
Can you tell me what the operational difference is between an urban interstate and a limited access highway? Is SR 9A any different now because it's called I-295 East Beltway? Does travel on JTB operate any differently because it's not labeled an interstate? All of these are state maintained roads and have the same roadway design requirements. So in reality, all the I-95/I-10 interchange is, is a place where two limited access roads meet.
QuoteOn a related note, what is the impetus for the highway removal and road diet movement that keeps getting referenced?
There's no energy behind either of I-10 or I-95 being removed or going on a road diet. That's wishful thinking at best.
Super cool shot of downtown Jax and the 10/95 interchange in the headline - where can you find the full uncropped photo?
Quote from: I-10east on February 13, 2014, 12:46:05 PM
It seems like 'rerouted truck traffic' is the all important buzz words right now. TBH, I don't think that Jax's truck traffic on the two-digit interstates, are a big deal; Nor do I think that Riverside's historical district is gonna be imperiled, because of some conjured, every growing twenty-two lane Fuller Warren Bridge that's destined to wipe out all of humanity...
When traffic gets heavy enough, WAY in the distant future, they'll eventually reroute the truck traffic. Believe me, Jax having a simple two lane 95 split (that some of yall loved apparently) like it's 1990 wouldn't be viable right now. Catch yall later. :)
Reroute truck traffic to where? Let's just say you're IAW, Maxwell House, Swisher, Beaver Street Fisheries or North Florida Shipyards. How exactly are you going to reroute truck traffic off I-10 and I-95? Do we really want additional trucks to go down neighborhood streets to access our industries and businesses instead? In Miami, they are doing the exact opposite to get port truck traffic out of downtown by building a tunnel off I-395 for trucks instead. In Tampa, the same thing was done with the I-4/Selmon Connector to get trucks off the streets of Ybor City. Truck traffic isn't the problem with these roads. It's a development pattern that promotes new residential growth on the edges of town. Since those residents have no jobs or significant nodes of commerce in their neck of the woods, they end up clogging the limited access highways around town to access these services.
Quote from: stephendare on February 13, 2014, 01:07:11 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on February 13, 2014, 01:02:49 PM
Quote from: stephendare on February 13, 2014, 12:44:02 PM
But not interstates?
Can you tell me what the operational difference is between an urban interstate and a limited access highway? Is SR 9A any different now because it's called I-295 East Beltway? Does travel on JTB operate any differently because it's not labeled an interstate? All of these are state maintained roads and have the same roadway design requirements. So in reality, all the I-95/I-10 interchange is, is a place where two limited access roads meet.
QuoteOn a related note, what is the impetus for the highway removal and road diet movement that keeps getting referenced?
There's no energy behind either of I-10 or I-95 being removed or going on a road diet. That's wishful thinking at best.
We seem to be devolving to shakespearean theories of nomenclature. Or perhaps gertrude stein..... In this case: A rose is a rose, is a rose. If its an interstate, then its an interstate. Or at least last time i checked.
If we're to have a real discussion on this and not confuse people, we need to understand what we are talking about is limited access roads, expressways, freeways, highways with no traffic signals, etc. It doesn't matter if it's labeled a interstate number or not. The design and impacts on the surrounding neighborhoods aren't any different.
QuoteAnd I was asking about a broader question. Why are cities removing the highways and creating road diets?
For a variety of reasons. To spur infill growth, save money, design for the human as opposed to the car, etc. are all various reasons. However, most limited access highway removals have been short spurs similar to the Hart Bridge Expressway.
The title of the thread is actually a specific operations project proposed for a specific highway interchange which also happens to an SIS facility. What we're discussing should probably be a separate topic altogether. I'll explain later but I have some things to do right now.
230.
Thought experiment: How much traffic would be diverted from the Fuller Warren Bridge if the signs at the intersection of I-295 and I-95 were swapped? What percentage of traffic currently going over the bridge are vehicles that are simply going through Jacksonville, not trips originating in the greater Jacksonville area?
I-795 (and that's what 9-B will become) had some design purposes to reroute truck traffic to and from JAXPORT on a shorter route to our south. This effectively bypasses the perpetual bottleneck at I-95/295 south. No doubt sprawl will be effected around the Davis ranch, but FYI all of that land has been planned for development adjoining (roughly) Nocatee.
I-795 will become an extension of the St. Johns Parkway south and west of 95.
My only wish for the project is that they would have swung west along Greenbriar and effected a river crossing at Fleming Island as a link in the Outer Beltway. This would have made the Beltway useful to many more current residents of Clay and St. Johns and given the Clay people an alternative access to the Baymeadows/Beaches/Town Center areas.
Stephen road diets are for many purposes, they slow traffic, but they also have been shown to GREATLY increase retail. Stands to reason if your not blowing through town on a State or Union Street, traffic a bit more confined, stopped at a light... then you spot THAT store! They also increase pedestrian and bicycle safety making the space friendlier with wider (usually) tree lined sidewalks and local transit. These are things a freeway just can't do. In our continual quest to build a great city, imagine the Hart bridge ramps become our own version of Oklahoma City Blvd, or Portland's streetcar... or both.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 13, 2014, 01:09:44 PM
Reroute truck traffic to where? Let's just say you're IAW, Maxwell House, Swisher, Beaver Street Fisheries or North Florida Shipyards. How exactly are you going to reroute truck traffic off I-10 and I-95?
My bad, you're right Lake.
"Rerouting" truck traffic is wishful thinking. My brother is a truck driver. They have GPS to give them the shortest/best route for trucks to access to their destinations. So if you have a load headed to an inner city destination, you want that 18 wheeler on I-10, not Park Street. Besides, it's not trucks trying to get over to Roosevelt Boulevard. It's all those residents who moved to Clay County, Argyle, Oakleaf, etc.
Quote from: Dog Walker on February 13, 2014, 02:48:52 PM
Thought experiment: How much traffic would be diverted from the Fuller Warren Bridge if the signs at the intersection of I-295 and I-95 were swapped? What percentage of traffic currently going over the bridge are vehicles that are simply going through Jacksonville, not trips originating in the greater Jacksonville area?
I'd have to go back and look at traffic counts or O&D data but I'm pretty confident that most of the traffic on I-95, inside of the beltway, is local. A sign most likely accomplishes nothing with GPS and cell phones already providing the average person with the shortest route from point A to point B.
Bet you that Google Maps or Garmin maps would route more people around Jax is the road designation changed. Most of the route algorithms try for simplicity over efficiency; the fewer turns the better; don't confuse the driver!
If so, I-95 (for those going north/south) is a straight shot. Anything else will have you merging onto something else. How you propose getting Westside/Clay County people off Blanding and Roosevelt? Take that segment of traffic out and you probably don't have a problem at all. But the majority of that traffic is local commuters.
Quote from: I-10east on February 13, 2014, 07:34:58 AM
Nice aerial view of the city on the top post.
I was thinking the same thing. We don't see that view to often.
Ock, I think you hit the wrong moderator button and edited my original post by including your own. Here's your part:
Quote from: thelakelander on February 13, 2014, 12:42:38 PM
To be precise, examples of limited access highways intersecting near rivers, bays, creeks, waterways, etc. This country literally turned its back on urban waterways for most of the 20th century. Find a major city with a river and 9 times out of 10, you'll discover a superhighway, two or three, nearby.
For example, most urbanist tend to hold Portland up as a model for places like Jacksonville to follow. Well, for all the LRT, streetcars, high density and all, it has a few examples of this surrounding its downtown...
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Downtown_Portland.png)
True Lake, but Portland is dealing with more constraints then we ever will. Just to the east and west of the river the land rises sharply into the Cascade and Coast Range of mountains, respectively. The inner belt is really a glorified split of the north-south interstate 5. All parts of this are about as far from the middle of the CBD as is our I-95 in LaVilla.
What hasn't been said is that Portland scrapped the entire north-south 'Waterfront Drive' freeway and replaced it with a lineal park, with multi use trails and streetcar. The former freeway took up the space we would identify as between the riverbank and Bay Street in Jacksonville and ran the length of downtown. The second huge freeway project, 'The Mount Hood Freeway', was killed and replaced by light-rail. The result has been an economic boom from downtown east into Gresham (a few miles from where I used to live). Oklahoma City has now done the same thing with I-40 in downtown. The freeway that once rubbed up to the Cox Arena downtown is now a half mile south. Rather like Jacksonville doing all of this 'improvement' on a new I-95 alignment from the Emerson exit straight north crossing the river around A.P.Randolph and curving back into the old highway near the Trout River.
Here's some before and after shots:
PORTLAND:
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Transporte%20Bus%20Truck%20HIGHWAY/ScreenShot2014-02-13at32240PM_zpscd3c5782.png)
Center of photo, the Mount Hood Freeway - project killed.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Transporte%20Bus%20Truck%20HIGHWAY/ScreenShot2014-02-13at32159PM_zpse50bc2e2.png)
Mount Hood Freeway model, Portland to Mount Hood, replaced by MAX LRT (light-rail)
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Transporte%20Bus%20Truck%20HIGHWAY/ScreenShot2014-02-13at32825PM_zpsa6cbe2c0.png)
Mount Hood Freeway? Imagine this 25 years from now on JTA's BRT... HA!
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Transporte%20Bus%20Truck%20HIGHWAY/ScreenShot2014-02-13at13827PM_zps32e3ba61.png)
Running from the lower right corner, note the freeway along the river.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Transporte%20Bus%20Truck%20HIGHWAY/ScreenShot2014-02-13at13758PM_zps50984f88.png)
Here's a post card from the Waterfront Drive in Portland.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Transporte%20Bus%20Truck%20HIGHWAY/ScreenShot2014-02-13at14414PM_zps3ea59673.png)
This is a rendering of the planned change to the freeway.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Transporte%20Bus%20Truck%20HIGHWAY/ScreenShot2014-02-13at13840PM_zpse2db3da3.png)
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Transporte%20Bus%20Truck%20HIGHWAY/ScreenShot2014-02-13at13851PM_zpsffa0ae71.png)
Both photos above: This is 'Waterfront Drive' today.
OKLAHOMA CITY
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/i40relocationaerial.jpg)
Map showing the I-40 relocation.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Transporte%20Bus%20Truck%20HIGHWAY/ScreenShot2014-02-13at25930PM_zpsb6b9b9db.png)
The Replacement of I-40, OKLAHOMA CITY BLVD.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Transporte%20Bus%20Truck%20HIGHWAY/ScreenShot2014-02-13at25433PM_zpsdeac7fb7.png)
Crossing the Blvd, here we see the new Streetcar entering the core by the historic Santa Fe (Amtrak) station from the Ford Center northbound, Bricktown is across the railroad.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Transporte%20Bus%20Truck%20HIGHWAY/ScreenShot2014-02-13at30540PM_zpsd1433d38.png)
Streetcar plan Zeta-A
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God know's Jacksonville my love, we can only hope!
QuoteTrue Lake, but Portland is dealing with more constraints then we ever will. Just to the east and west of the river the land rises sharply into the Cascade and Coast Range of mountains, respectively. The inner belt is really a glorified split of the north-south interstate 5. All parts of this are about as far from the middle of the CBD as is our I-95 in LaVilla.
Whatever the reason, you have a common situation where freeways/interstates meet up with each other along the river. My argument has and still remains that Jacksonville's expressway system's routes in the urban core is not unique in America.
QuoteWhat hasn't been said is that Portland scrapped the entire north-south 'Waterfront Drive' freeway and replaced it with a lineal park, with multi use trails and streetcar. The former freeway took up the space we would identify as between the riverbank and Bay Street in Jacksonville and ran the length of downtown.
To be fair, some original concepts for the Hart Bridge Expressway, Acosta Bridge and Mathews Bridge had them extending through DT to connect to I-95. Luckily those died before becoming the reality that Waterfront Drive did.
QuoteThe second huge freeway project, 'The Mount Hood Freeway', was killed and replaced by light-rail. The result has been an economic boom from downtown east into Gresham (a few miles from where I used to live). Oklahoma City has now done the same thing with I-40 in downtown. The freeway that once rubbed up to the Cox Arena downtown is now a half mile south. Rather like Jacksonville doing all of this 'improvement' on a new I-95 alignment from the Emerson exit straight north crossing the river around A.P.Randolph and curving back into the old highway near the Trout River.
I-40 was rerouted through Ocklahoma City but it didn't go away. That wouldn't work for Jax. Our inner city neighborhoods are significantly denser and occupied than the area around I-40's new path.
Is Jax the only city in the country that doesn't reroute except Atlanta? Serioulsy? First, semis arent allowed through Atl and have to go 285 unless they have business in the Perimeter. Jax doesnt do that. Since when did Orlando reroute traffic? Miami? Charlotte? Nashville? Dc doesnt necessarily reroute unless people chose to take the beltway.
I don't understand the emphasis of Jacksonville not being unique with its highways cutting through our heart as if that makes it all OK. Who cares if we are like most other cities. We need to aspire for better.
And we need folks who have the understanding that this highway does not need to expand, and the vision that we benefit if it can be downsized.
Oh, no one ever said it was OK to have a superhighway cutting through the core of town or to lose grand neighborhoods like Sugar Hill in the process.
However, I've always operated on the idea that the best way to advocate for a cause is to do so rationally. If the goal is to attempt to get a road oriented entity to go in a multimodal direction, one can damage their position of credibility by making claims that can easily be proven as false or illogical, as a part of their argument. On the other hand, one can strengthen their position and influence when backed by strong technical data supporting their cause.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 13, 2014, 10:51:12 PM
Oh, no one ever said it was OK to have a superhighway cutting through the core of town or to lose grand neighborhoods like Sugar Hill in the process.
However, I've always operated on the idea that the best way to advocate for a cause is to do so rationally. If the goal is to attempt to get a road oriented entity to go in a multimodal direction, one can damage their position of credibility by making claims that can easily be proven as false or illogical, as a part of their argument. On the other hand, one can strengthen their position and influence when backed by strong technical data supporting their cause.
Well said Lake. Like you said earlier, and I've said for a while; Many think that all problems in Jax are 'unique' to this city, and that is far from the truth. When the US-17 flyover is completed, the FWB will basically be topped off. There's literally no where else to expand; Despite many being paranoid that the bridge will take over Riverside by 'further encroaching' into it.
Please....DOT's all over the place make comments like "when this is built, we are done"..and then 10-15 years later they change their mind.
^^^Where are they gonna build on the FWB after the US-17 flyover is completed? Adding a second US-17 lane? That doesn't sound realistic to me.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 13, 2014, 10:51:12 PM
Oh, no one ever said it was OK to have a superhighway cutting through the core of town or to lose grand neighborhoods like Sugar Hill in the process.
However, I've always operated on the idea that the best way to advocate for a cause is to do so rationally. If the goal is to attempt to get a road oriented entity to go in a multimodal direction, one can damage their position of credibility by making claims that can easily be proven as false or illogical, as a part of their argument. On the other hand, one can strengthen their position and influence when backed by strong technical data supporting their cause.
Totally agree that the way you win is by being incredibly smart and professional in your approach.
Quote from: I-10east on February 14, 2014, 02:45:20 AM
^^^Where are they gonna build on the FWB after the US-17 flyover is completed? Adding a second US-17 lane? That doesn't sound realistic to me.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that you don't solve a weight problem by buying a bigger belt. When it comes to the success of widening roads to relieve traffic congestion, look no further than the first tier cities of the South (ex. Atlanta, Miami, Houston, Dallas, DC). All have better transit systems, wider highways and all are still congested. Yet, also realize there's a political engine behind a lot of the things we do because several companies, people, development firms, industries, etc. make their livelihood off roadway construction.
Looking at the I-10/I-95 conceptual plans, it's pretty easy to see where future problems will start to generate. Basically, any place where traffic will have to merge because you're losing a through lane. Plus, for all the cars you shift through providing better multimodal options, they'll be replaced with new drivers as growth is still occurring in areas that lead to the straining of junctions like this.
Also, give it a few years, but I could easily see a point where that flyover to Roosevelt eventually leads to FDOT having to do something with the McDuff intersection. Whenever that happens, Roosevelt will probably be limited access from I-10 to just north of FSCJ Kent Campus.
Quotedont forget reasonable and truthful!
You really need to direct that at FDOT since they have been neither.
^That just makes it easier for the public to advocate and gain local political support.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 14, 2014, 07:45:06 AM
Also, give it a few years, but I could easily see a point where that flyover to Roosevelt eventually leads to FDOT having to do something with the McDuff intersection. Whenever that happens, Roosevelt will probably be limited access from I-10 to just north of FSCJ Kent Campus.
It's like you're reading my mind. I totally agree. I could totally see an Edgewood-esque overpath on top of Mc Duff in the distant future. Many don't like highway/road projects, but future infrastructure advancements are one of the issues of a growing city.
^ there are many ways to enhance infrastructure....and I would note that many of the most congested cities are also the most vibrant cities.
QuoteIt's like you're reading my mind. I totally agree. I could totally see an Edgewood-esque overpath on top of Mc Duff in the distant future. Many don't like highway/road projects, but future infrastructure advancements are one of the issues of a growing city.
LOL! If you think the Riverside people are up in arms, try pushing that down the throats of the Avondale people.
You guys crack me up.
Hopefully...... someday we can be on a list like this.
http://gizmodo.com/6-freeway-demolitions-that-changed-their-cities-forever-1548314937
Quote from: Josh on March 26, 2014, 11:06:47 AM
Hopefully...... someday we can be on a list like this.
http://gizmodo.com/6-freeway-demolitions-that-changed-their-cities-forever-1548314937
We could do this pretty easily now, route all 95 traffic to the east beltway/9b (a lot of truckers already do this) and have I-10 end at the west belt way. Unfortunately that will only give us more of what we have in the shipyards - empty waterfront property. If the core was bursting and running out of space I'd say it would be something to look at.
But right now I like that people see our skyline/waterfront on their way to cfla and sfla.
Quote from: Josh on March 26, 2014, 11:06:47 AM
Hopefully...... someday we can be on a list like this.
http://gizmodo.com/6-freeway-demolitions-that-changed-their-cities-forever-1548314937
These are cool alternative uses. Thanks.
Thanks for sharing. I'm not as familiar with the projects outside of the US but a few of the examples in our country are actually freeway expansions. Boston's Big Dig and Seattle's Alaskan Way are two that standout. Expensive, but context sensitive approaches (putting freeways in tunnels) to accommodating mainline freeways into an urban environment. The other examples tend to be spurs more similar to the Hart Bridge Expressway than I-95. I think this will become a larger discussion in Jax as our older expressways, like the Hart Bridge and Arlington Expressways continue to age, and we figure out how much it's really going to cost to retrofit them.
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 14, 2014, 12:14:16 PM
^ there are many ways to enhance infrastructure....and I would note that many of the most congested cities are also the most vibrant cities.
Couldn't agree more. Except for Houston of course. But really, it takes people, lots of people, to create vibrant cities. It takes major public infrastructure, including roads and bridges, to bring people in, through,and around cities to facilitate growth and allow for healthy, balanced, and vibrant cities.
We start seriously talking about pulling up I-95, the aorta of our city, and I believe were going to babe some major problems.
We start talking