I-95/I-10 Operational Improvements Conceptual Plans

[thelakelander]

Are we the ONLY city in the US besides Atlanta that isn't smart enough to re-route the interstate AROUND the city rather than through the middle of it.  Tampa and St. Petersburg did, why can't we?

That ship has long sailed. Interstate highways built near major cities' downtowns are VERY common; I'll even say that more do than don't. 

True. Just stating a fact but most major cities do have interstate highways that go through their urban cores and downtown. Just south of us, I-4 nearly splits DT Orlando in half. I-275 and I-4 (both of which is older than I-75 in Hillsborough) penetrated DT Tampa. The Crosstown/Lee Roy Selmon does too on the south end. To top it off, they just built an elevated 1 mile expressway to connect the Selmon and I-4 in Ybor. In Jax, that would be similar to turning State & Union into an elevated expressway between the Mathews and I-95.

Many of these highway paths were selected as a means to divide urban communities by race and economic demographics in the 50s and 60s. I-95 in Jax is no different.

[fieldafm]

^^^I didn't say anything about truck traffic, LOL

You don't see the point.
If traffic counts allegedly necesitate further road expansion that encroaches even further into neighborhoods (neighborhoods they have already destroyed previously)... then why can't alternative solutions be sought that do not include the unecessary disruption of quality of life in our community?


This entire thing is a fiasco, was not in any long term plans and is just FDOT trying to pull a quick one in order to keep the road construction machine fed.  For what? F@ck that! Not this time.

[I-10east]

Many of these highway paths were selected as a means to divide urban communities by race and economic demographics in the 50s and 60s. I-95 in Jax is no different.

Explain that more thoroughly concerning Jax Lake. Believe me, I get the eminent domain 'tearing down poor communities to build hwys etc.  I don't see any of our highways having that 'other side of the tracks' rich/poor contrast in the past. With Jax, it seems like the river itself had that demographic effect, moreso than the highways. 

[thelakelander]

We have two that both go through the actual core.  Not as usual.

I think there are a few other cities (LA with 5 and 10) and Atlanta.  But there are differences in the heavy use of the traffic.  Some interstates are just higher volume than others, and 95 connects the entire eastern seaboard, while 10 connects the east and west coast.

In Atlanta a lot of the damage was handled by the Perimeter.  And most cities have a perimeter system in place to handle the kind of volume brought by the Interstates. 

Jax's situation is not unusual and the I-95 traffic counts pale in comparison with highways cutting through first tier cities (we're probably a third tier American city at best). There are several cities out there that have it worst than we do. Just in Florida alone, Miami (3), Tampa (2) and Orlando (2) have multiple expressways with higher traffic counts that actually penetrate or get close to their historic downtown cores.

Now what is unusual are cities that have successfully kept major highways from penetrating their cores and those that have dismantled them.

[thelakelander]

Many of these highway paths were selected as a means to divide urban communities by race and economic demographics in the 50s and 60s. I-95 in Jax is no different.

Explain that more thoroughly concerning Jax Lake. Believe me, I get the eminent domain 'tearing down poor communities to build hwys etc.  I don't see any of our highways having that 'other side of the tracks' rich/poor contrast in the past. With Jax, it seems like the river itself had that demographic effect, moreso than the highways.

We didnt tear down poor black communities for the interstate, we tore down the wealthy ones.

And black/latin and southern mediterraneans lived and owned land on both sides of the river.

Clifton is in Arlington after all, as was the basis of the Sammis fortune.

Once the ethnic cleansers of the Pork Chop Gang sank their teeth into infrastructure, it was all about removing black and white adjacency and equity.

The Jacksonville Expressway (which is 95) was built on the bones of Black Upper Class heritage, when it tore down the old Sugar Hill neighborhood.

True. The Jacksonville Expressway (now I-95) also served as a wall between black and white. At the time, Durkeeville, Moncrief, etc. were black neighborhoods while Brentwood, Panama Park, Springfield, etc. were white neighborhoods.  It's more than coincidence that I-95 is pretty close to where the ethnic divide was at the time. 

Look across the country and you'll find this Robert Moses style planning all over the place. For example, Detroit's Chinatown got taken out for I-75.

[I-10east]

We didnt tear down poor black communities for the interstate, we tore down the wealthy ones.

And black/latin and southern mediterraneans lived and owned land on both sides of the river.

Clifton is in Arlington after all, as was the basis of the Sammis fortune.

Once the ethnic cleansers of the Pork Chop Gang sank their teeth into infrastructure, it was all about removing black and white adjacency and equity.

The Jacksonville Expressway (which is 95) was built on the bones of Black Upper Class heritage, when it tore down the old Sugar Hill neighborhood.

Thanks for the info Stephen.

[Dog Walker]

We have two that both go through the actual core.  Not as usual.

I think there are a few other cities (LA with 5 and 10) and Atlanta.  But there are differences in the heavy use of the traffic.  Some interstates are just higher volume than others, and 95 connects the entire eastern seaboard, while 10 connects the east and west coast.

In Atlanta a lot of the damage was handled by the Perimeter.  And most cities have a perimeter system in place to handle the kind of volume brought by the Interstates. 

Jax's situation is not unusual and the I-95 traffic counts pale in comparison with highways cutting through first tier cities (we're probably a third tier American city at best). There are several cities out there that have it worst than we do. Just in Florida alone, Miami (3), Tampa (2) and Orlando (2) have multiple expressways with higher traffic counts that actually penetrate or get close to their historic downtown cores.

Now what is unusual are cities that have successfully kept major highways from penetrating their cores and those that have dismantled them.

Richmond VA, Tampa/St. & Jacksonville all have in common is that all of the traffic had to go over bridges which create choke points.  Richmond, Tampa/St. Pete have diverted interstate traffic around their cities to reduce the load on the bridges.

That's the smart solution.  Continually expanding a roadway through the middle of a city is a dumb solution. 

[thelakelander]

I'd argue that Richmond is worse off than Jax. 195 cuts off Richmond's downtown from the entire riverfront. It would be like running the Hart Bridge Expressway down Bay Street to connect to the Acosta and I-95.

[thelakelander]

I understand. I was just saying that there's nothing unusual about Jax's situation. In other words, in this case, I-10 is right on the money with his comment. I know we tend to treat Jax like it is unique and something special but it really is an "Anyplace USA" when it comes to stuff like this.

I-295 in Richmond essentially serves the same purpose as I-295 in Jax. I-75 in Tampa was built decades after I-275 and I-4 were constructed in the heart of that city. In both cases, these cities still have major interstate "choke points" in their urban cores (I'd argue moreso than I-95 in Jax since we're pretty overbuilt for our population when it comes to expressways). Truck traffic on expressway segments near their downtowns are still high as well.  Quite frankly, most of the truck traffic is probably local in Richmond, Tampa and Jacksonville. If those guys aren't on the highway, then they are using local streets to access industry, railyards, warehouses and port terminals in each city.

Both Tampa and Richmond also have major interstate construction projects underway as well......speaking of which, I happened to get caught in a backup on Richmond's a few months ago. VDOT's I-95/I-64 $106 million project is expected to last 4 years. Plus where I-95 meets I-295, just north of Richmond, is a mess no one would want to see anywhere near Northeast Florida. If there is a stretch of highway that needs additional lanes, it's I-95 between Richmond and DC.

[thelakelander]

I didn't say anything about money.  I just said I-10 was correct in this particular statement:

Are we the ONLY city in the US besides Atlanta that isn't smart enough to re-route the interstate AROUND the city rather than through the middle of it.  Tampa and St. Petersburg did, why can't we?

That ship has long sailed. Interstate highways built near major cities' downtowns are VERY common; I'll even say that more do than don't.

[thelakelander]

But it's all the same at the end of the day.  If someone wants to claim I-95 goes through downtown Jax, there's hundreds of similar examples across the country. If someone wants to claim I-95/I-10 are "near" downtown Jax, there's hundreds of similar examples across the country.  No matter which term one uses, Jax's situation is not unique.

[thelakelander]

If you want to spin it that way, sure. It's so common that the two cities mentioned (Tampa and Richmond) have the same situation in (or near) their downtowns.



In Richmond, you have I-95 and SR 195 (which becomes I-195), just north of the James River.  Here's a picture under SR 195 I took last Summer:



^To me, a much worse situation, considering that this is in the historic heart of Richmond's downtown and not a mile away.

In Tampa, you have I-4 and I-275 coming together with a complex set of ramps just west of I-275's Hillsborough River bridge in downtown. In the image, you can see them just north of Tampa's downtown.



I have hundreds of more examples. I'm a transportation planner who actually gets paid a good working man's wage to do just that. It might be best to move on from this one...

[thelakelander]

To be precise, examples of limited access highways intersecting near rivers, bays, creeks, waterways, etc.  This country literally turned its back on urban waterways for most of the 20th century.  Find a major city with a river and 9 times out of 10, you'll discover a superhighway, two or three, nearby.

For example, most urbanist tend to hold Portland up as a model for places like Jacksonville to follow. Well, for all the LRT, streetcars, high density and all, it has a few examples of this surrounding its downtown...



True Lake, but Portland is dealing with more constraints then we ever will. Just to the east and west of the river the land rises sharply into the Cascade and Coast Range of mountains, respectively. The inner belt is really a glorified split of the north-south interstate 5. All parts of this are about as far from the middle of the CBD as is our I-95 in LaVilla.

What hasn't been said is that Portland scrapped the entire north-south 'Waterfront Drive' freeway and replaced it with a lineal park, with multi use trails and streetcar. The former freeway took up the space we would identify as between the riverbank and Bay Street in Jacksonville and ran the length of downtown. The second huge freeway project, 'The Mount Hood Freeway', was killed and replaced by light-rail. The result has been an economic boom from downtown east into Gresham (a few miles from where I used to live). Oklahoma City has now done the same thing with I-40 in downtown. The freeway that once rubbed up to the Cox Arena downtown is now a half mile south. Rather like Jacksonville doing all of this 'improvement' on a new I-95 alignment from the Emerson exit straight north crossing the river around A.P.Randolph and curving back into the old highway near the Trout River.

Here's some before and after shots:

PORTLAND:


Center of photo, the Mount Hood Freeway - project killed.


Mount Hood Freeway model, Portland to Mount Hood, replaced by MAX LRT (light-rail)


Mount Hood Freeway? Imagine this 25 years from now on JTA's BRT... HA!


Running from the lower right corner, note the freeway along the river.


Here's a post card from the Waterfront Drive in Portland.


This is a rendering of the planned change to the freeway.




Both photos above: This is 'Waterfront Drive' today.

OKLAHOMA CITY


Map showing the I-40 relocation.


The Replacement of I-40, OKLAHOMA CITY BLVD.


Crossing the Blvd, here we see the new Streetcar entering the core by the historic Santa Fe (Amtrak) station from the Ford Center northbound, Bricktown is across the railroad. 


Streetcar plan Zeta-A


God know's Jacksonville my love, we can only hope!

[I-10east]

It seems like 'rerouted truck traffic' is the all important buzz words right now. TBH, I don't think that Jax's truck traffic on the two-digit interstates, are a big deal; Nor do I think that Riverside's historical district is gonna be imperiled, because of some conjured, every growing twenty-two lane Fuller Warren Bridge that's destined to wipe out all of humanity...

When traffic gets heavy enough, WAY in the distant future, they'll eventually reroute the truck traffic. Believe me, Jax having a simple two lane 95 split (that some of yall loved apparently) like it's 1990 wouldn't be viable right now. Catch yall later.    

[thelakelander]

But not interstates?

Can you tell me what the operational difference is between an urban interstate and a limited access highway? Is SR 9A any different now because it's called I-295 East Beltway? Does travel on JTB operate any differently because it's not labeled an interstate? All of these are state maintained roads and have the same roadway design requirements. So in reality, all the I-95/I-10 interchange is, is a place where two limited access roads meet.

On a related note, what is the impetus for the highway removal and road diet movement that keeps getting referenced?

There's no energy behind either of I-10 or I-95 being removed or going on a road diet. That's wishful thinking at best.