Edward Snowden you likely remember is the young man in exile in Russia. He fled the United States in fear of the reprisals he would face via the U.S. government because he divulged "secret" information that exposed some troubling policies in the United States.
The government and some in America see him as a traitor. Others see his actions as laudable and those of a whistle blower. Snowden just received an honor from some fellow Americans who traveled to Russia to deliver it personally. Take a look at who those honoring him are. I think they have it right. Snowden shared some important information with average citizens in that what he exposed indicates our own rights and freedoms as Americans are being threatened. I think he was brave to do what he did and that American's needed to know. What he exposed indicated that our own liberty is at risk. That is a worrisome reality to my view.
The activists from the Sam Adams Associates for Integrity in Intelligence, an organization of former national security officials, praised Snowden for shining light on a secret government surveillance program.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/snowdens-father-arrives-in-moscow/2013/10/10/ec4f6c32-3182-11e3-ad00-ec4c6b31cbed_story.html?hpid=z3
Was it reprisals he feared... or arrest and prosecution for laws broken? I am glad he is happy in Russia... 8)
Quote from: BridgeTroll on October 10, 2013, 01:31:48 PM
Was it reprisals he feared... or arrest and prosecution for laws broken? I am glad he is happy in Russia... 8)
I honestly don't know BT. This is one of those situations that can be reasonably debated from both sides. I actually think what he shared was important to the American people in that it exposed a real threat to our rights to privacy and personal liberty. It can reasonably be argued that this disclosure could have hurt our homeland security as well. As I said, I see both sides of the argument but lean toward seeing him as a whistle blower as opposed to a traitor. Of course others will see it differently.
I say whistleblower. How can we have a democracy when so much is done in secret? Who watches the watchmen?
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on October 10, 2013, 01:50:04 PM
I say whistleblower. How can we have a democracy when so much is done in secret? Who watches the watchmen?
I think most of America would be horrified to know what our government does in secret. What also helps to keep folks from knowing all is the use of private industry hired by government for a number of projects that are not open to the scrutiny of the public. From Black ops to NASA.
To my view the drone programs, the intrusions into our smart phones and personal computers is chilling. I believe that Snowden did us a "solid" by sharing what he did. I only hope that his situation will no keep others from sharing information with Americans about American government policies and actions. It would be devastating if they did not. It's a different situation but this calls to mind the exposure of "Watergate". If those reporters had not been willing to take a chance a corrupt president would likely have remained in office.
Here is a simple example of how private companies are hired by NASA. Not a problem in most cases but in others it is the choice dejour when it comes to secrecy as the private industry players are not required to share info with the public. http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2013/08/12/north-texas-company-helping-launch-nasa-space-lander/
Quote from: Apache on October 10, 2013, 02:33:48 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on October 10, 2013, 01:39:16 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on October 10, 2013, 01:31:48 PM
Was it reprisals he feared... or arrest and prosecution for laws broken? I am glad he is happy in Russia... 8)
I honestly don't know BT. This is one of those situations that can be reasonably debated from both sides. I actually think what he shared was important to the American people in that it exposed a real threat to our rights to privacy and personal liberty. It can reasonably be argued that this disclosure could have hurt our homeland security as well. As I said, I see both sides of the argument but lean toward seeing him as a whistle blower as opposed to a traitor. Of course others will see it differently.
If thats the case then logic would dictate that he is both a whistle blower and a traitor.
They aren't mutually exclusive descriptions.
Therein lies the rub! :)
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on October 10, 2013, 02:20:34 PM
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on October 10, 2013, 01:50:04 PM
I say whistleblower. How can we have a democracy when so much is done in secret? Who watches the watchmen?
I think most of America would be horrified to know what our government does in secret. What also helps to keep folks from knowing all is the use of private industry hired by government for a number of projects that are not open to the scrutiny of the public. From Black ops to NASA.
To my view the drone programs, the intrusions into our smart phones and personal computers is chilling. I believe that Snowden did us a "solid" by sharing what he did. I only hope that his situation will no keep others from sharing information with Americans about American government policies and actions. It would be devastating if they did not. It's a different situation but this calls to mind the exposure of "Watergate". If those reporters had not been willing to take a chance a corrupt president would likely have remained in office.
Here is a simple example of how private companies are hired by NASA. Not a problem in most cases but in others it is the choice dejour when it comes to secrecy as the private industry players are not required to share info with the public. http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2013/08/12/north-texas-company-helping-launch-nasa-space-lander/
You say... "I think most of America would be horrified to know what our government does in secret." No doubt. I have seen a few things myself... The other "scary" side of the coin is... Most of our "friends" and enemies would love to know what our government does in secret. There is a process in place for people like snowden... there is congressional oversight... there are processes in place. Snowden... and people like him do not get to decide what they are going to leak to the world. when they do... they should be prosecuted severely.
Now... you may take issue with the oversight. Fair enough. But it is a separate issue. Fix the process... but we cannot have people deciding for themselves what to divulge in a spasm of spiritual revelation...
Quote from: BridgeTroll on October 10, 2013, 04:01:48 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on October 10, 2013, 02:20:34 PM
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on October 10, 2013, 01:50:04 PM
I say whistleblower. How can we have a democracy when so much is done in secret? Who watches the watchmen?
I think most of America would be horrified to know what our government does in secret. What also helps to keep folks from knowing all is the use of private industry hired by government for a number of projects that are not open to the scrutiny of the public. From Black ops to NASA.
To my view the drone programs, the intrusions into our smart phones and personal computers is chilling. I believe that Snowden did us a "solid" by sharing what he did. I only hope that his situation will no keep others from sharing information with Americans about American government policies and actions. It would be devastating if they did not. It's a different situation but this calls to mind the exposure of "Watergate". If those reporters had not been willing to take a chance a corrupt president would likely have remained in office.
Here is a simple example of how private companies are hired by NASA. Not a problem in most cases but in others it is the choice dejour when it comes to secrecy as the private industry players are not required to share info with the public. http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2013/08/12/north-texas-company-helping-launch-nasa-space-lander/
You say... "I think most of America would be horrified to know what our government does in secret." No doubt. I have seen a few things myself... The other "scary" side of the coin is... Most of our "friends" and enemies would love to know what our government does in secret. There is a process in place for people like snowden... there is congressional oversight... there are processes in place. Snowden... and people like him do not get to decide what they are going to leak to the world. when they do... they should be prosecuted severely.
Now... you may take issue with the oversight. Fair enough. But it is a separate issue. Fix the process... but we cannot have people deciding for themselves what to divulge in a spasm of spiritual revelation...
I know what you are saying BT and readily understand why some of these measures are put into place. The other part of my understanding has to do with the reality that many of these oversight measures are abused by individual departments in the government. Now do you really want to discus "congressional" oversight right now considering the current and past messes they have collectively created? lol Not sure that makes me feel any better about the issue.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on October 10, 2013, 05:39:08 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on October 10, 2013, 04:01:48 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on October 10, 2013, 02:20:34 PM
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on October 10, 2013, 01:50:04 PM
I say whistleblower. How can we have a democracy when so much is done in secret? Who watches the watchmen?
I think most of America would be horrified to know what our government does in secret. What also helps to keep folks from knowing all is the use of private industry hired by government for a number of projects that are not open to the scrutiny of the public. From Black ops to NASA.
To my view the drone programs, the intrusions into our smart phones and personal computers is chilling. I believe that Snowden did us a "solid" by sharing what he did. I only hope that his situation will no keep others from sharing information with Americans about American government policies and actions. It would be devastating if they did not. It's a different situation but this calls to mind the exposure of "Watergate". If those reporters had not been willing to take a chance a corrupt president would likely have remained in office.
Here is a simple example of how private companies are hired by NASA. Not a problem in most cases but in others it is the choice dejour when it comes to secrecy as the private industry players are not required to share info with the public. http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2013/08/12/north-texas-company-helping-launch-nasa-space-lander/
You say... "I think most of America would be horrified to know what our government does in secret." No doubt. I have seen a few things myself... The other "scary" side of the coin is... Most of our "friends" and enemies would love to know what our government does in secret. There is a process in place for people like snowden... there is congressional oversight... there are processes in place. Snowden... and people like him do not get to decide what they are going to leak to the world. when they do... they should be prosecuted severely.
Now... you may take issue with the oversight. Fair enough. But it is a separate issue. Fix the process... but we cannot have people deciding for themselves what to divulge in a spasm of spiritual revelation...
I know what you are saying BT and readily understand why some of these measures are put into place. The other part of my understanding has to do with the reality that many of these oversight measures are abused by individual departments in the government. Now do you really want to discus "congressional" oversight right now considering the current and past messes they have collectively created? lol Not sure that makes me feel any better about the issue.
There is little doubt that I distrust the bureaucracy of government more than you. Unlike yourself apparently... I am unwilling to let random individuals make random decisions regarding national security. I simply do not understand how you could take that position.
Even if you agree with the "government spying on you angle" justifies snowdens actions... What else that he released was really good info for... the Chinese... the Russians... Iran... n korea... It simply cannot be justified... at all.
^ Then when else could it be "justified" in your opinion? From the government itself? Corporate controlled media?? Good luck with that.
It's not so much about being willing to allow random individuals random acts. It's more about recognizing that the parameters of what is and isn't shared with American citizens in the view of a congress that has many folks with agenda's populating it and others who think government has the right to invade our privacy is not something I am willing to completely trust. It could be that the congressional view of what should remain secret may not be in the best interest of the citizens of America. Perhaps the policy is more inline with government agencies who wish to have even greater control over our private lives and allowing various corporate interests that are connected to sitting officials remain behind the curtain of homeland security. That is my concern. There will always be whistle blowers, even in government and with the technology available today and the growing use of the internet there will be less and less control over some secrets. As far as fearing the info going to China, Russia, Iran etc. Snowden's actions revealed a weakness in the system that the government thought was secure. That exposure was telling because if he can exploit that weakness our enemies can too and likely have. In that way he made the U.S. government aware that their system was faulty. As I said earlier, this situation can be reasonably argued from both sides in my opinion. Now as far as the decisions made by random individuals, I think we have several of those types currently in office within our government making these secret decisions. I find it all worrisome.
Just saw the updates from PSU and Stephen. I think their thinking is more inline with what I am trying to say. ;) But know BT, that I do understand your argument and respect it, I just don't agree with it.
Quote from: stephendare on October 10, 2013, 06:04:49 PM
Quote from: peestandingup on October 10, 2013, 06:01:28 PM
^ Then when else could it be "justified" in your opinion? From the government itself? Corporate controlled media?? Good luck with that.
Well of course those chinese simpletons simply had no idea that we were spying on them. They are such children really, if you think about it. Its not like theyve had a few thousand years of some of the most spy intensive history on planet earth to draw from.
Perhaps the only real surprises in the Snowden revelations were to the american public, who did not fund their government with the purposes of having their underwear drawers and amazon.com look ups spied on.
True, but they're doing a lot more than looking at our Amazon Wish List. Basically an entire surveillance grid front to back. The online part is just a piece of it (think cameras everywhere, that phone in your pocket tracking everywhere you go, who you're around, etc). The terrorist threat angle, while legit in some aspects, is just a front. The threat is us.
Quote from: peestandingup on October 10, 2013, 06:34:59 PM
Quote from: stephendare on October 10, 2013, 06:04:49 PM
Quote from: peestandingup on October 10, 2013, 06:01:28 PM
^ Then when else could it be "justified" in your opinion? From the government itself? Corporate controlled media?? Good luck with that.
Well of course those chinese simpletons simply had no idea that we were spying on them. They are such children really, if you think about it. Its not like theyve had a few thousand years of some of the most spy intensive history on planet earth to draw from.
Perhaps the only real surprises in the Snowden revelations were to the american public, who did not fund their government with the purposes of having their underwear drawers and amazon.com look ups spied on.
True, but they're doing a lot more than looking at our Amazon Wish List. Basically an entire surveillance grid front to back. The online part is just a piece of it (think cameras everywhere, that phone in your pocket tracking everywhere you go, who you're around, etc). The terrorist threat angle, while legit in some aspects, is just a front. The threat is us.
+1
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on October 10, 2013, 06:37:43 PM
Quote from: peestandingup on October 10, 2013, 06:34:59 PM
Quote from: stephendare on October 10, 2013, 06:04:49 PM
Quote from: peestandingup on October 10, 2013, 06:01:28 PM
^ Then when else could it be "justified" in your opinion? From the government itself? Corporate controlled media?? Good luck with that.
Well of course those chinese simpletons simply had no idea that we were spying on them. They are such children really, if you think about it. Its not like theyve had a few thousand years of some of the most spy intensive history on planet earth to draw from.
Perhaps the only real surprises in the Snowden revelations were to the american public, who did not fund their government with the purposes of having their underwear drawers and amazon.com look ups spied on.
True, but they're doing a lot more than looking at our Amazon Wish List. Basically an entire surveillance grid front to back. The online part is just a piece of it (think cameras everywhere, that phone in your pocket tracking everywhere you go, who you're around, etc). The terrorist threat angle, while legit in some aspects, is just a front. The threat is us.
+1
Not unexpected... but wow...
BT, honest question. How is it that you think it is wise to allow this much intrusion into the private lives of American citizens under the guise of protecting us? A kind of for our own good mentality and the government is the parent. The erosion of our privacy and rights alone can do far more damage to us that any Snowden every could. We as a people are allowing our private rights to be eroded right under our eyes and it is our own government doing it.
Quote from: stephendare on October 10, 2013, 07:19:04 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on October 10, 2013, 07:17:57 PM
BT, honest question. How is it that you think it is wise to allow this much intrusion into the private lives of American citizens under the guise of protecting us? A for our own good kinda thing. That alone can do far more damage to us that any Snowden every could. We as a people are allowing our private rights to be eroded right under our eyes and it is our own government doing it.
red herring diane. everyone knows that the constitution and liberty were destroyed by passing health care.
Your right. I forgot. Pardon me.
Quote from: stephendare on October 10, 2013, 06:56:41 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on October 10, 2013, 06:46:03 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on October 10, 2013, 06:37:43 PM
Quote from: peestandingup on October 10, 2013, 06:34:59 PM
Quote from: stephendare on October 10, 2013, 06:04:49 PM
Quote from: peestandingup on October 10, 2013, 06:01:28 PM
^ Then when else could it be "justified" in your opinion? From the government itself? Corporate controlled media?? Good luck with that.
Well of course those chinese simpletons simply had no idea that we were spying on them. They are such children really, if you think about it. Its not like theyve had a few thousand years of some of the most spy intensive history on planet earth to draw from.
Perhaps the only real surprises in the Snowden revelations were to the american public, who did not fund their government with the purposes of having their underwear drawers and amazon.com look ups spied on.
True, but they're doing a lot more than looking at our Amazon Wish List. Basically an entire surveillance grid front to back. The online part is just a piece of it (think cameras everywhere, that phone in your pocket tracking everywhere you go, who you're around, etc). The terrorist threat angle, while legit in some aspects, is just a front. The threat is us.
+1
Not unexpected... but wow...
yeah. turns out that the people who were against torturing people are also against unlawfully spying on citizens as well.
Something tells me BT was also labelling anyone discussing these things years ago, esp during Dubya, were nothing more than crazy tin foil hatters. Who probably hated America too. Nevermind you have a better chance of being struck by lightening, like twice, before being killed by terrorism.
Keep hope alive, Bridge! We'll get them boogiemen terrorists soon & win this war. In the meantime, we're gonna need to log everything you do & keep it indefinitely. You know, just in case. Freedom, patriotism, eagles & stuff. #murica
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on October 10, 2013, 07:17:57 PM
BT, honest question. How is it that you think it is wise to allow this much intrusion into the private lives of American citizens under the guise of protecting us? A kind of for our own good mentality and the government is the parent. The erosion of our privacy and rights alone can do far more damage to us that any Snowden every could. We as a people are allowing our private rights to be eroded right under our eyes and it is our own government doing it.
What was the topic you started CC? Snowden broke the law. While perhaps not a traitor... he should certainly be prosecuted as a criminal... and clearly deserves no award.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on October 10, 2013, 08:32:13 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on October 10, 2013, 07:17:57 PM
BT, honest question. How is it that you think it is wise to allow this much intrusion into the private lives of American citizens under the guise of protecting us? A kind of for our own good mentality and the government is the parent. The erosion of our privacy and rights alone can do far more damage to us that any Snowden every could. We as a people are allowing our private rights to be eroded right under our eyes and it is our own government doing it.
What was the topic you started CC? Snowden broke the law. While perhaps not a traitor... he should certainly be prosecuted as a criminal... and clearly deserves no award.
I think when looking at the choice Snowden made to share this information one factor looms large in my mind. He did not take what he learned and sell it to another country be it China, Iran, Russia or anywhere else. He took the troubling information he found out right to the American people. If this was about undermining our safety or the country he would have sold it to a power hating the U.S.A. He is very much a whistle blower trying to let his countrymen and women know that somehow in the process of fighting terrorism and gathering information the government started stepping over the rights to privacy of it's own citizens and in many cases began spying on them. This is a very dangerous thing that if left unchecked can readily erode other important rights of citizens. I don't think Snowdens intent was criminal and I do believe the country needed to know the truth. I do believe he felt that the people had the right to know how their private lives and actions are no longer private nor are they protected. That scares me much more than Snowden's actions.
Just some personal, not completely informed thoughts on the matter....
If Snowden was able to not only see this information and extract it, what does that say about the security of the information he disclosed in general? Are we to just assume that he was some genius that flaunted his security access or was it truly that easy to extract?
The information that he made public (I'm not even going to pretend to know what all he released).... are we to just go off of blind faith that our government is only using this info for our 'protection'? What's to keep the less than northern moral compass types from using this information for their own personal gain? Do we need more examples even outside of our own community, how personal/private information is kept from the GP in the name of private wealth enhancement?
While I agree that there must be secrets kept, I still believe that government should operate in a state of full disclosure. How does that compromise our national security? I'm going to dumb it down a bit and suggest that we relate all the 'national secrets' to the same argument v/s concealed weapon permitting v/s open carry.
With the former, it is unknown whether your adversary even has a weapon, what kind it is, if it's armed and their skill with it.
With the latter, you know exactly what your adversary is carrying. The only question you have to ask yourself is if they're a better draw than you are.
It's no secret that all nations are spying on each other. The sticky point of the situation is how much is our own nation spying on itself, why, and to what gain?
Any notion that Snowden 'protected anyone' is silly IMO. Then again, many people (particularly many liberals) are so quick to make martyrs out of these 'anti-establishment' types....
^^^If you wanna have a real conversation about this, lets talk about Edward Snowden, don't bring up any civil rights icons; The far left always does that everytime; It's like on que or something. Just like if I specifically was talking about the faults of a democratic president, and Joey Wind-turbine over here has to bring up George Bush. So typical....
Actually, if you wanna have a real conversation about this, the thing to do is not focus on some individual (like the media is doing on purpose as a distraction, he's irrelevant), but rather the facts/information itself & try to figure out what exactly is happening to our country.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on October 10, 2013, 11:22:04 PM
Just some personal, not completely informed thoughts on the matter....
If Snowden was able to not only see this information and extract it, what does that say about the security of the information he disclosed in general? Are we to just assume that he was some genius that flaunted his security access or was it truly that easy to extract?
The information that he made public (I'm not even going to pretend to know what all he released).... are we to just go off of blind faith that our government is only using this info for our 'protection'? What's to keep the less than northern moral compass types from using this information for their own personal gain? Do we need more examples even outside of our own community, how personal/private information is kept from the GP in the name of private wealth enhancement?
While I agree that there must be secrets kept, I still believe that government should operate in a state of full disclosure. How does that compromise our national security? I'm going to dumb it down a bit and suggest that we relate all the 'national secrets' to the same argument v/s concealed weapon permitting v/s open carry.
With the former, it is unknown whether your adversary even has a weapon, what kind it is, if it's armed and their skill with it.
With the latter, you know exactly what your adversary is carrying. The only question you have to ask yourself is if they're a better draw than you are.
It's no secret that all nations are spying on each other. The sticky point of the situation is how much is our own nation spying on itself, why, and to what gain?
This really is the point isn't it? The fact that he could do what he did in my opinion exposed a flawed system. The fact that he made this known to the American people made us further aware of how rapidly our right to privacy is being lost at the hands of our own government.
Quote from: I-10east on October 10, 2013, 11:43:28 PM
Any notion that Snowden 'protected anyone' is silly IMO. Then again, many people (particularly many liberals) are so quick to make martyrs out of these 'anti-establishment' types....
I-10. While your statement fits your feelings about "liberal types" what you said just isn't true. Who are liberal types anyway? Unthinking fools in your view? Lets just be clear about one thing, having a different view of an issue or action does not mean that the view is without value. It's important to listen to what the other person is saying with some degree of respect and without labels. That doesn't mean we have to agree but we can agree to disagree without attacking the others level of intelligence. I actually think the differences in views help to keep us thinking and in the long run perhaps even balanced. I can tell you that I would not want to live in a world where everyone's thinking was the same. That would be it's own kind of hell in my opinion. ;)
I admit: I'm coming in rather late in this conversation....but, I'll throw in my .02 cents.
I can't think of a single substantive complaint against Snowden.
Government for the people, by the people...remember?
For government to run efficiently and justly, it needs an educated and informed populace. Not a populace that's in the dark.
The guy is obviously a whistleblower, and one that deserves every "medal" we can throw at him. A shame he's holed away in Moscow.
Oh, and I don't buy for a second he jeopardized our national security...yeah, like Iran and North Korea are going to get together to do some sneaky shit to us. Right. Nothing we haven't done to the other 192 UN members.
We often forget...America, land of the not-so-free, ain't the product of immaculate conception. We can, and often do, do wrong.
Quote from: peestandingup on October 11, 2013, 01:58:23 AM
Actually, if you wanna have a real conversation about this, the thing to do is not focus on some individual (like the media is doing on purpose as a distraction, he's irrelevant), but rather the facts/information itself & try to figure out what exactly is happening to our country.
What is happening to our privacy and freedoms is key in this country and has me very worried. What Snowden did was expose that reality. Now it is time to have the bigger discussion about just how far we as Americans are going to allow this invasion into our privacy under the guise of protecting the country from terrorists.
QuoteBenSays
We often forget...America, land of the not-so-free, ain't the product of immaculate conception. We can, and often do, do wrong
This is the truth Ben. I agree.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on October 11, 2013, 11:52:18 AM
Quote from: peestandingup on October 11, 2013, 01:58:23 AM
Actually, if you wanna have a real conversation about this, the thing to do is not focus on some individual (like the media is doing on purpose as a distraction, he's irrelevant), but rather the facts/information itself & try to figure out what exactly is happening to our country.
What is happening to our privacy and freedoms is key in this country and has me very worried. What Snowden did was expose that reality. Now it is time to have the bigger discussion about just how far we as Americans are going to allow this invasion into our privacy under the guise of protecting the country from terrorists.
CC: a discussion about how far we as Americans are going to allow this invasion into our privacy is a good conversation.
That being said, I feel the bigger conversation is: what's creating the terrorists?
It seems we don't want to fix the source, but merely band-aid the result (at the expense of the American populace).
Quote from: Apache on October 11, 2013, 11:59:29 AM
What do you think is creating the terrorists Ben?
Whats the source?
I would enjoy seeing this answered as well. ;)
Quote from: Apache on October 11, 2013, 11:59:29 AM
What do you think is creating the terrorists Ben?
Whats the source?
May have something to do w/ our role as world police.
Bombing villages via drones. Killing children. Our presence in every place with a backyard.
Here's a mental exercise: pretend there are 40,000 Iranian soldiers walking around Jacksonville. Last week a school was bombed. Oh, and they're here scoping out a potential natural resource. Lots of contractors/profiteers walking around too.
Sounds fun!!!!
Quote from: ben says on October 11, 2013, 12:02:53 PM
Quote from: Apache on October 11, 2013, 11:59:29 AM
What do you think is creating the terrorists Ben?
Whats the source?
May have something to do w/ our role as world police.
Bombing villages via drones. Killing children. Our presence in every place with a backyard.
Here's a mental exercise: pretend there are 40,000 Iranian soldiers walking around Jacksonville. Last week a school was bombed. Oh, and they're here scoping out a potential natural resource. Lots of contractors/profiteers walking around too.
Sounds fun!!!!
How mean of Mr Obama... randomly picking out villages chock full of children and bombing it. Seems pretty unreasonable and downright savage...
It's not a partisan issue, BT.
Your failure of putting yourself in someone else's collective shoe is quite believable, coming from you.
Quote from: ben says on October 11, 2013, 12:09:45 PM
It's not a partisan issue, BT.
Your failure of putting yourself in someone else's collective shoe is quite believable, coming from you.
You are correct... it is not... nor was I being partisan. Why is the president just randomly killing children?
Quote from: BridgeTroll on October 11, 2013, 12:11:01 PM
Quote from: ben says on October 11, 2013, 12:09:45 PM
It's not a partisan issue, BT.
Your failure of putting yourself in someone else's collective shoe is quite believable, coming from you.
You are correct... it is not... nor was I being partisan. Why is the president just randomly killing children?
I'll help you Ben... the answer is... HE ISNT!
Quote from: ben says on October 11, 2013, 12:02:53 PM
Quote from: Apache on October 11, 2013, 11:59:29 AM
What do you think is creating the terrorists Ben?
Whats the source?
May have something to do w/ our role as world police.
Bombing villages via drones. Killing children. Our presence in every place with a backyard.
Here's a mental exercise: pretend there are 40,000 Iranian soldiers walking around Jacksonville. Last week a school was bombed. Oh, and they're here scoping out a potential natural resource. Lots of contractors/profiteers walking around too.
Sounds fun!!!!
I would agree that there are other countries who don't cotton to us being the worlds police as do many American's, including myself. I want to make sure you understand the tenor of my next comment as not meant to insult but rather as to the reality of terrorism. Terrorists and terrorism is something that happens world wide, has for ages and the reasons for it are as different as is the madness in the minds of those who perpetrate it.
What is happening here, in the U.S. is a direct response to 9/11 and the outrage that it happened here, to us in America shocked the world. The American people not only blamed the terrorists themselves but blamed the U.S. intelligence agencies for allowing it to happen. We wanted Bin Laden dead along with all of his followers and we demanded that the government do a better job of stopping terrorists from repeating such actions on our own soil ever again. As a result the separate U.S. security agencies began to work together. Some plots were discovered and the
American people applauded. Ben Laden was killed and the American people applauded. U.S. intelligence then began to go about the business of ferreting out terrorist "cells" here, which again we as a people would want them to do. However another ugly truth about terrorism and terrorists has come to light which is that we grown them at home. Timothy McVeigh for example or the officer in our own service who blew away fellow soldiers and there are more like stories.
Back during WWII the inflamed fear of the U.S. caused American born citizens of Japanese descent to be rounded up and put into camps. They all became suspect and their rights as Americans evaporated. After the war we as a country look back at this insult to fellow Americans and marvel. It was fear and suspicion then that cause the government to take such actions and it is fear in tandem with righteous indignation that is driving our government right now to explain and excuse their intrusion into the lives of all Americans. When all of our rights to privacy are being violated it is a clear indicator that an overzealous government has gone to far. That is the tipping point where the government in it's determination as lost sight of the bigger picture which is our right to privacy and security in our own homes. That then becomes its own sort of terrorism.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on October 11, 2013, 12:20:42 PM
Quote from: ben says on October 11, 2013, 12:02:53 PM
Quote from: Apache on October 11, 2013, 11:59:29 AM
What do you think is creating the terrorists Ben?
Whats the source?
May have something to do w/ our role as world police.
Bombing villages via drones. Killing children. Our presence in every place with a backyard.
Here's a mental exercise: pretend there are 40,000 Iranian soldiers walking around Jacksonville. Last week a school was bombed. Oh, and they're here scoping out a potential natural resource. Lots of contractors/profiteers walking around too.
Sounds fun!!!!
I would agree that there are other countries who don't cotton to us being the worlds police as do many American's, including myself. I want to make sure you understand the tenor of my next comment as not meant to insult but rather as to the reality of terrorism. Terrorists and terrorism is something that happens world wide, has for ages and the reasons for it are as different as is the madness in the minds of those who perpetrate it.
What is happening here, in the U.S. is a direct response to 9/11 and the outrage that it happened here, to us in America shocked the world. The American people not only blamed the terrorists themselves but blamed the U.S. intelligence agencies for allowing it to happen. We wanted Bin Laden dead along with all of his followers and we demanded that the government do a better job of stopping terrorists from repeating such actions on our own soil ever again. As a result the separate U.S. security agencies began to work together. Some plots were discovered and the
American people applauded. Ben Laden was killed and the American people applauded. U.S. intelligence then began to go about the business of ferreting out terrorist "cells" here, which again we as a people would want them to do. However another ugly truth about terrorism and terrorists has come to light which is that we grown them at home. Timothy McVeigh for example or the officer in our own service who blew away fellow soldiers and there are more like stories.
Back during WWII the inflamed fear of the U.S. caused American born citizens of Japanese descent to be rounded up and put into camps. They all became suspect and their rights as Americans evaporated. After the war we as a country look back at this insult to fellow Americans and marvel. It was fear and suspicion then that cause the government to take such actions and it is fear in tandem with righteous indignation that is driving our government right now to explain and excuse their intrusion into the lives of all Americans. When all of our rights to privacy are being violated it is a clear indicator that an overzealous government has gone to far. That is the tipping point where the government in it's determination as lost sight of the bigger picture which is our right to privacy and security in our own homes. That then becomes its own sort of terrorism.
But what is 9/11 in response to?
And let's not point to Tim McVeigh with the whole "see!" thing. Yeah, you're right, there's always been terrorism. But what about terrorism that produces what's going on in the US?
Quote from: Apache on October 11, 2013, 12:26:50 PM
Quote from: ben says on October 11, 2013, 12:02:53 PM
Quote from: Apache on October 11, 2013, 11:59:29 AM
What do you think is creating the terrorists Ben?
Whats the source?
May have something to do w/ our role as world police.
Bombing villages via drones. Killing children. Our presence in every place with a backyard.
Here's a mental exercise: pretend there are 40,000 Iranian soldiers walking around Jacksonville. Last week a school was bombed. Oh, and they're here scoping out a potential natural resource. Lots of contractors/profiteers walking around too.
Sounds fun!!!!
To clarify, you are saying the United States is responsible for Terrorism?
The US isn't responsible for all terrorism in all places. But, yes, it's responsible for the terrorism being discussed in this thread.
Ben, please clarify what you mean when you ask what is the whole 9/11 thing? As far as including Tim McVeigh in my statement it was in keeping with my point about home grown terrorism. Not sure what you are getting at with either statement but welcome your clarification.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on October 11, 2013, 01:24:24 PM
Ben, please clarify what you mean when you ask what is the whole 9/11 thing? As far as including Tim McVeigh in my statement it was in keeping with my point about home grown terrorism. Not sure what you are getting at with either statement but welcome your clarification.
It is quite apparent that the 9/11 attacks did not come out of thin air. The history of the US funding and supporting militant Islamic groups (Cyclone) during the Soviet war in Afghanistan had something to do with it. US unquestioning support of Israel. Our actions in Chechnya, Somalia, and Kashmir during the 70s/80s/90s. Our military presence in the Middle East and South Asia. In short, our foreign policy may have had something to do with it.
Terrorists/freedom fighters don't come out of thin air....
Re: homegrown terrorism. There always has been and always will be this sort of nonsense. The question is..what kind of response does it deserve (terrorism in general?). 13+ years of war? Taking off your shoes at the airport? Being spied on by the NSA (to bring this whole thing around). Is our answer really adequate? Are we blowing this out of proportion?
Quote from: ben says on October 11, 2013, 01:44:29 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on October 11, 2013, 01:24:24 PM
Ben, please clarify what you mean when you ask what is the whole 9/11 thing? As far as including Tim McVeigh in my statement it was in keeping with my point about home grown terrorism. Not sure what you are getting at with either statement but welcome your clarification.
It is quite apparent that the 9/11 attacks did not come out of thin air. The history of the US funding and supporting militant Islamic groups (Cyclone) during the Soviet war in Afghanistan had something to do with it. US unquestioning support of Israel. Our actions in Chechnya, Somalia, and Kashmir during the 70s/80s/90s. Our military presence in the Middle East and South Asia. In short, our foreign policy may have had something to do with it.
Terrorists/freedom fighters don't come out of thin air....
It could well be that some terrorists actions are born of anger directed at U.S. policies and involvement. I would also agree that the funding of militant groups in the past does indeed fly in the face of attempts to stop terrorism. Having said the above, I don't agree that it is U.S. actions alone or hatred directed at us that fuels all world terrorism. It's a faulty view in the face of global realities. For instance, just last week terrorists used a car bomb in Bagdad to kill 50 people. A couple of weeks back we had terrorists in Kenya kill more than 60 people. The centuries old fight and acts of terrorism between Israel and Palestine did not begin with U.S. involvement. Our country wasn't around when this mess started. None of this has anything to do with American policies. These a just three of innumerable examples that span history. So no, I don't agree that terrorism is born of American action alone.
You added to your post after I quoted you so to your last statement that homegrown terrorism is nonsense? Let's break it down. Timothy McVeigh and his partner in crime were both born and bred in America. They hated American government for their own reasons so they attacked and blew up an entire government building in Oklahoma killing hundreds of innocent people in the process, including non Americans. This is pure terrorism and it began and ended on our soil and was perpetrated by Americans against Americans. Homegrown terrorism or the concept nonsense? Hardly, it is a deadly serious reality.
Quote from: ben says on October 11, 2013, 01:44:29 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on October 11, 2013, 01:24:24 PM
Ben, please clarify what you mean when you ask what is the whole 9/11 thing? As far as including Tim McVeigh in my statement it was in keeping with my point about home grown terrorism. Not sure what you are getting at with either statement but welcome your clarification.
It is quite apparent that the 9/11 attacks did not come out of thin air. The history of the US funding and supporting militant Islamic groups (Cyclone) during the Soviet war in Afghanistan had something to do with it. US unquestioning support of Israel. Our actions in Chechnya, Somalia, and Kashmir during the 70s/80s/90s. Our military presence in the Middle East and South Asia. In short, our foreign policy may have had something to do with it.
Terrorists/freedom fighters don't come out of thin air....
Re: homegrown terrorism. There always has been and always will be this sort of nonsense. The question is..what kind of response does it deserve (terrorism in general?). 13+ years of war? Taking off your shoes at the airport? Being spied on by the NSA (to bring this whole thing around). Is our answer really adequate? Are we blowing this out of proportion?
Hmm... maybe Americans are just terminal buttinskies who just have go around the world pissing people off. I mean the timespan you listed it certainly cannot be attributed to any particular political party or desire for world domination.
Why would those nice soviets invade Afghanistan? Why would we help those who wanted them out? Why would those people then turn on us? Why do people attack Israel? Why does Israel attack other countries? Why do we care what goes on in any of these crappy countries? It is all a big mystery...
Quote from: BridgeTroll on October 11, 2013, 02:15:44 PM
Quote from: ben says on October 11, 2013, 01:44:29 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on October 11, 2013, 01:24:24 PM
Ben, please clarify what you mean when you ask what is the whole 9/11 thing? As far as including Tim McVeigh in my statement it was in keeping with my point about home grown terrorism. Not sure what you are getting at with either statement but welcome your clarification.
It is quite apparent that the 9/11 attacks did not come out of thin air. The history of the US funding and supporting militant Islamic groups (Cyclone) during the Soviet war in Afghanistan had something to do with it. US unquestioning support of Israel. Our actions in Chechnya, Somalia, and Kashmir during the 70s/80s/90s. Our military presence in the Middle East and South Asia. In short, our foreign policy may have had something to do with it.
Terrorists/freedom fighters don't come out of thin air....
Re: homegrown terrorism. There always has been and always will be this sort of nonsense. The question is..what kind of response does it deserve (terrorism in general?). 13+ years of war? Taking off your shoes at the airport? Being spied on by the NSA (to bring this whole thing around). Is our answer really adequate? Are we blowing this out of proportion?
Hmm... maybe Americans are just terminal buttinskies who just have go around the world pissing people off. I mean the timespan you listed it certainly cannot be attributed to any particular political party or desire for world domination.
Why would those nice soviets invade Afghanistan? Why would we help those who wanted them out? Why would those people then turn on us? Why do people attack Israel? Why does Israel attack other countries? Why do we care what goes on in any of these crappy countries? It is all a big mystery...
Some of the past and current reasons used are the control of oil supplies, destabilization (whatever that may mean today), alleged chemical weapon caches, humanitarian relief and little things like Haliburton and other corporate interests. etc, etc, etc. The reality is that the world is tired of U.S. wanting to be dominate world decision making in everything and frankly American's are tired of sending our troops to other countries to fight wars we should not be in. This became more than apparent after years in Afghanistan and Iraq with nothing solved in the end but resulting in the expenditure of trillions of dollars and billions in rebuilding what we destroyed. Finally is this military enterprise that we built bigger and better than any other nation that demands to be fed. I do believe America has reached a juncture where we are being forced to re-evaluate the whys and wheres of our actions at home and in the world.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on October 11, 2013, 02:39:56 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on October 11, 2013, 02:15:44 PM
Quote from: ben says on October 11, 2013, 01:44:29 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on October 11, 2013, 01:24:24 PM
Ben, please clarify what you mean when you ask what is the whole 9/11 thing? As far as including Tim McVeigh in my statement it was in keeping with my point about home grown terrorism. Not sure what you are getting at with either statement but welcome your clarification.
It is quite apparent that the 9/11 attacks did not come out of thin air. The history of the US funding and supporting militant Islamic groups (Cyclone) during the Soviet war in Afghanistan had something to do with it. US unquestioning support of Israel. Our actions in Chechnya, Somalia, and Kashmir during the 70s/80s/90s. Our military presence in the Middle East and South Asia. In short, our foreign policy may have had something to do with it.
Terrorists/freedom fighters don't come out of thin air....
Re: homegrown terrorism. There always has been and always will be this sort of nonsense. The question is..what kind of response does it deserve (terrorism in general?). 13+ years of war? Taking off your shoes at the airport? Being spied on by the NSA (to bring this whole thing around). Is our answer really adequate? Are we blowing this out of proportion?
Hmm... maybe Americans are just terminal buttinskies who just have go around the world pissing people off. I mean the timespan you listed it certainly cannot be attributed to any particular political party or desire for world domination.
Why would those nice soviets invade Afghanistan? Why would we help those who wanted them out? Why would those people then turn on us? Why do people attack Israel? Why does Israel attack other countries? Why do we care what goes on in any of these crappy countries? It is all a big mystery...
Some of the past and current reasons used are the control of oil supplies, destabilization (whatever that may mean today), alleged chemical weapon caches, humanitarian relief and little things like Haliburton and other corporate interests. etc, etc, etc. The reality is that the world is tired of U.S. wanting to be dominate world decision making in everything and frankly American's are tired of sending our troops to other countries to fight wars we should not be in. This became more than apparent after years in Afghanistan and Iraq with nothing solved in the end but resulting in the expenditure of trillions of dollars and billions in rebuilding what we destroyed. Finally is this military enterprise that we built bigger and better than any other nation that demands to be fed. I do believe America has reached a juncture where we are being forced to re-evaluate the whys and wheres of our actions at home and in the world.
Its been going on for a long long time & is so deep rooted into our country now that it will literally take either an all out collapse, or civil war itself to break free from it. The war on terror just plays right along in this.
Eisenhower warns us of the military industrial complex
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY
President John F Kennedy Secret Society Speech
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhZk8ronces
When was the last time you heard a President, who was already elected, say these things?
Snowden should receive the congressional Medal of Honor, at least if we weren't a society of convenient hypocrites. What he exposed is WRONG, I don't much care who exposed it.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on October 11, 2013, 11:48:26 AM
I-10. While your statement fits your feelings about "liberal types" what you said just isn't true. Who are liberal types anyway? Unthinking fools in your view? Lets just be clear about one thing, having a different view of an issue or action does not mean that the view is without value. It's important to listen to what the other person is saying with some degree of respect and without labels. That doesn't mean we have to agree but we can agree to disagree without attacking the others level of intelligence. I actually think the differences in views help to keep us thinking and in the long run perhaps even balanced. I can tell you that I would not want to live in a world where everyone's thinking was the same. That would be it's own kind of hell in my opinion. ;)
I'll respond to your post CC, since my buddy Stephendare's didn't offer any reasoning whatsoever. I totally agree with you that this world would be a boring place if everyone opinions were the same, and differing views help us in the long run. Hell, I'm a victim of that many times on MJ, as for instance, I might not think that a particular old building is worth renovation, while many others disagree. I never intended for my comment to insult anyone's intelligence with my previous comment, and I apologize if I did.
IMO people like Oliver North, or Malala Yousafzai (the Pakistani girl shot by the Taliban) are heroes; IMO opposed to people who compromise the nations security, and are the cause for violent anti-American retribution, like Edward Snowden, and Bradley Manning respectively; I'm sure that many will disagree, and that's okay.
Concerning the whole republican vs democrat, or liberal vs conservative debate, it seems like it's cool to call out conservatives/republicans on MJ, but one is kinda 'crossing the line of MJ' when liberals are called out; They are called trolls, racists etc. I've seen instances like that MANY times on here. BTW, I call out whatever party that needs to be called out, and try to be as reasonable as I can.
Quote from: peestandingup on October 11, 2013, 01:58:23 AM
Actually, if you wanna have a real conversation about this, the thing to do is not focus on some individual (like the media is doing on purpose as a distraction, he's irrelevant), but rather the facts/information itself & try to figure out what exactly is happening to our country.
So basically I should just feed into the fear mongering and paranoid-ism, like so many in the country are doing right? No way. BTW, the topic was is he a traitor or not, not "America's Actions, post-Snowden Exposing the NSA". IMO that's a very passive attitude to have towards Snowden PSU. He's suddenly 'unimportant' although he did his best to compromise the nations security; I'll agree with you on one aspect, the chances of the US arresting him is very low, so he's 'irrelevant' in that sense, but I wouldn't try to act as if he didn't cause a giant ripple affect with his actions.
Quote from: Apache on October 11, 2013, 07:29:42 PM
Ben, I don't want to put words in your mouth but it sounds like you are suggesting a Isolationist form of Foreign Policy for the US. If thats the case, do you think thats a feasible policy?
Isolationism and intervention...not so far off. http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/19251-the-obama-doctrine (http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/19251-the-obama-doctrine)
QuoteStephendare,
Diane, Faye For The Cure and many others have had a far rougher experience on this site discussing their liberal politics intelligently than you have while launching tirades for two solid years because you simply didnt know that 'urbanism' wasnt 'anti suburban'. So please, get off the cross, stop stating your opinions solely in such a way that you are calling other people stupid, start asking people what they mean once in a while before you book a ticket to the moons of uranus and I suspect you will find a very different environment of discussion
I really don't know what this comment is about. I post the way I speak, directly. I have also stated that I find online discussions difficult because folks are often left to surmise ones tone and intent. It is never my intention to call others stupid and if you take a step back and examine your own style of interaction, I think you could be seen as doing the same thing when you converse and I don't think you mean to insult either.
I am not surprised by the verbal jab in the ribs though. I was wondering when it would come. Stephen for someone whose posting is often combative and could readily be seen as insulting to others it tickles me that you apply the standards and interpretations to my style above and don't recognize that you do the same thing almost on a daily basis in your own posting. Now I realize saying this online may put me in your cross hairs and beg an online tit for tat but I truly hope not. If I am seen to be doing what you describe above I won't apologize or change my style because there is no intent to insult or affront others. There never is.
I really don't want to see my words in response to your misinterpretation of my intent to dissolve into one of those dynamics where every subsequent post will be about getting back at someone who urged you take a look in the mirror when it comes to judgments. Again, no intent to talk down on insult on my part. It is my way to be direct and concise when I write or speak. I can't change however how others choose to interpret my words or speaking style.
Quote from: ben says on October 12, 2013, 08:49:10 AM
Quote from: Apache on October 11, 2013, 07:29:42 PM
Ben, I don't want to put words in your mouth but it sounds like you are suggesting a Isolationist form of Foreign Policy for the US. If thats the case, do you think thats a feasible policy?
Isolationism and intervention...not so far off. http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/19251-the-obama-doctrine (http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/19251-the-obama-doctrine)
I doubt we will ever see the U.S. become isolationist but it may be past time for us to get out of the business of imposing ourselves or views upon the rest of the world. I honestly believe in spite of how much other countries dislike many of America's attitudes and actions those countries also look to this country for guidance and help when the chips are down. That is just my opinion.
QuoteI-10 Concerning the whole republican vs democrat, or liberal vs conservative debate, it seems like it's cool to call out conservatives/republicans on MJ, but one is kinda 'crossing the line of MJ' when liberals are called out; They are called trolls, racists etc. I've seen instances like that MANY times on here. BTW, I call out whatever party that needs to be called out, and try to be as reasonable as I can.
Please don't take my response to you with regard to the use of the word liberal as anything other than a question about what you meant when you said liberal and your point is well taken with regard to comments about conservatives and Republicans. Of course my words are not reflective of the forum as a whole. I just post here. :) I have never been a fan of labels especially when the terms conservative and liberal are thrown out as insults. (Not saying you did that, which I why I asked what you meant). To my eyes I think most people don't fit the extremes of beliefs that these terms are sometimes meant to imply. Most folks generally fall somewhere between the two extremes of thought and that is the place common ground can be found. For the record, I generally place myself in the in between category. I have both liberal and conservative views and will readily admit my liberal leanings. lol But I am by no means extreme in those views.
^ You know what Apache? You busted me and I was less than honest when making the statement to Stephen about his intent to insult posters. The truth is I believe that delivering a sound insult is often his intent. I was simply trying to buffer the words in my response. That I believe may be the difference in our interactions. I honestly never mean to insult or demean in my words but learned long ago that there is not a whole lot I can do about what folks "read" into my intentions. Now I suppose I will hear very soon a response to my forum transgression. Standing by. lol
Quote from: stephendare on October 12, 2013, 08:08:04 AM
no, your posts are just usually very misinformed. Please dont try and put yourself into the role of the universal voice of 'conservativism'. because you arent, and your record of making half baked statements and then not being able to back them up with a single fact for many pages is what you get called out on. NOT 'conservatives' or 'liberals'. Just your inability to tell the meaningful difference between the two words.
Additionally, trying to flavor the dismal response to your posts with a general persecution complex is pretty much a cop out. Either make your points or dont, but please dont make everyone listen to your whining about how no one wants to listen to your whining.
Gardenguy is the polar opposite of the spectrum, with his anti republican tirades and the endless religious bashing, and he gets the same response that your posts get. It has nothing to do with either of your alleged 'politics'.
Diane, Faye For The Cure and many others have had a far rougher experience on this site discussing their liberal politics intelligently than you have while launching tirades for two solid years because you simply didnt know that 'urbanism' wasnt 'anti suburban'. So please, get off the cross, stop stating your opinions solely in such a way that you are calling other people stupid, start asking people what they mean once in a while before you book a ticket to the moons of uranus and I suspect you will find a very different environment of discussion.
Everything that you said is a complete joke. Did I ever claim to be 'the voice of conservatism'? That's you're problem, always trying to put words in my mouth. Just because I agree with some republican ideas, that makes me a 'conservative'? Talk about someone who's in a bubble. You have never been able to prove that "I don't know the difference between political parties", yet you condescendingly keep on beating that drum; No one says that but you. No one but you calls people 'trolls and racist' for having differing political ideas; I must have struck a nerve when I mentioned that Stephen, right? How bout you pull up YOUR history on that one Stephen, since you're always so quick to do that.
So you're saying that some DON'T insinuate that having something in the suburbs 'takes away from urbanity'? Okay, keep on believing that, I have some land down there in Alligator Alley to sell you. I'm supposedly 'whining' but yet, that's all that you do, and you seem to take it all personal to, SMH....
This is just one of the things Edward Snowden exposed and in so doing the exposure forced a government official to reveal that he lied when he said the U.S. was not collecting the phone records of average, law abiding citizens. To make matters worse, permission has just been granted to continue this dragnet of personal information. This is alarming!
http://www.mintpressnews.com/secret-fisa-court-extends-nsa-phone-spying/170508/ (click link for full article)
(http://i.imgur.com/ay8Xtwg.jpg)
Quote
However, as Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.)—who is among a handful of U.S. lawmakers currently drafting respective bills that claim to prohibit the NSA from conducting bulk data collection in the future—made clear that Clapper's nod towards "transparency" was superficial at face value.
"While I appreciate the recent efforts by the Court and the administration to be more transparent, it is clear that transparency alone is not enough," said Leahy.
"There is growing bipartisan consensus that the law itself needs to be changed in order to restrict the ability of the government to collect the phone records of millions of law-abiding Americans," Leahy added.
Clapper, sparked outrage when it was revealed earlier this year that he "outright lied" to the U.S. Senate Intelligence Committee when said the NSA does not collect data on U.S. citizens, shortly after the first NSA revelations had been published.
The NSA's mass collection of private phone data was among the first revelations exposed to the public by NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden.
Quote from: Apache on October 12, 2013, 12:26:12 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 11, 2013, 11:59:57 PM
Snowden should receive the congressional Medal of Honor, at least if we weren't a society of convenient hypocrites. What he exposed is WRONG, I don't much care who exposed it.
That's extremely over reaching bordering on ridiculous.
Not to mention there is no such medal as the "congressional Medal of Honor"
http://www.cmohs.org/
I am quite happy he is in Russia... and apparently so is he... win/win!
Quote from: Apache on October 18, 2013, 02:25:39 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 18, 2013, 12:22:39 AM
Quote from: Apache on October 12, 2013, 12:26:12 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 11, 2013, 11:59:57 PM
Snowden should receive the congressional Medal of Honor, at least if we weren't a society of convenient hypocrites. What he exposed is WRONG, I don't much care who exposed it.
That's extremely over reaching bordering on ridiculous.
Not to mention there is no such medal as the "congressional Medal of Honor"
http://www.cmohs.org/
Sweet. There is a society. There still is no congressional Medal of Honor.
Yes, the society created to manage it doesn't know the name of their own medal. Obviously.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on October 18, 2013, 07:04:20 AM
I am quite happy he is in Russia... and apparently so is he... win/win!
Why are you happy he's in Russia? How would his geographical location effect you whatsoever? Nonsensical at best
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 18, 2013, 05:40:06 PM
Quote from: Apache on October 18, 2013, 02:25:39 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 18, 2013, 12:22:39 AM
Quote from: Apache on October 12, 2013, 12:26:12 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 11, 2013, 11:59:57 PM
Snowden should receive the congressional Medal of Honor, at least if we weren't a society of convenient hypocrites. What he exposed is WRONG, I don't much care who exposed it.
That's extremely over reaching bordering on ridiculous.
Not to mention there is no such medal as the "congressional Medal of Honor"
http://www.cmohs.org/
Sweet. There is a society. There still is no congressional Medal of Honor.
Yes, the society created to manage it doesn't know the name of their own medal. Obviously.
For what it's worth:
Quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medal_of_Honor
Etymology[edit]
Although the medal is sometimes erroneously referred to as the Congressional Medal of Honor, the original and official name is simply the "Medal of Honor".[1][9][10][11]
Quote from: ben says on October 18, 2013, 09:46:31 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on October 18, 2013, 07:04:20 AM
I am quite happy he is in Russia... and apparently so is he... win/win!
Why are you happy he's in Russia? How would his geographical location effect you whatsoever? Nonsensical at best
Don't you know? Whistleblowers need to be cast out so as to not disrupt the fantasy some would rather live in.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on October 18, 2013, 11:13:13 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 18, 2013, 05:40:06 PM
Quote from: Apache on October 18, 2013, 02:25:39 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 18, 2013, 12:22:39 AM
Quote from: Apache on October 12, 2013, 12:26:12 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 11, 2013, 11:59:57 PM
Snowden should receive the congressional Medal of Honor, at least if we weren't a society of convenient hypocrites. What he exposed is WRONG, I don't much care who exposed it.
That's extremely over reaching bordering on ridiculous.
Not to mention there is no such medal as the "congressional Medal of Honor"
http://www.cmohs.org/
Sweet. There is a society. There still is no congressional Medal of Honor.
Yes, the society created to manage it doesn't know the name of their own medal. Obviously.
For what it's worth:
Quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medal_of_Honor
Etymology[edit]
Although the medal is sometimes erroneously referred to as the Congressional Medal of Honor, the original and official name is simply the "Medal of Honor".[1][9][10][11]
Yeah, I read that Wikipedia blurb in trying to determine where he came up with this, and the Wikipedia poster who argues this cites the original act of congress not having styled itself "Act of Congress authorizing a Congressional Medal of Honor" and instead referring to it simply as the Medal of Honor in the Act (of congress). That would be quite the example of redundancy, you generally don't see congress calling the product of its own acts congressional, it was a congressional act, wtf else would it be? Again, Wikipedia, if he wants I'll go edit it then will I be right?
The notable thing about this medal is that it's authorized directly by congress and administered by the society I posted the link to above, as opposed to most military honors which involve the executive or the military branches directly. I don't know that it's incorrect to call it the congressional medal of honor, when there is more than one type of medal of honor and that one was awarded directly by an act of congress. I think it's also notable that to call it incorrect you'd have to overlook the name of the honor society the government has established to oversee it. You'd think they'd know the name of their own medal.