Edward Snowden Traitor or Whistleblower?

[Cheshire Cat]

BT, honest question.  How is it that you think it is wise to allow this much intrusion into the private lives of American citizens under the guise of protecting us?  A kind of for our own good mentality and the government is the parent.   The erosion of our privacy and rights alone can do far more damage to us that any Snowden every could.  We as a people are allowing our private rights to be eroded right under our eyes and it is our own government doing it. 

[Cheshire Cat]

BT, honest question.  How is it that you think it is wise to allow this much intrusion into the private lives of American citizens under the guise of protecting us?  A for our own good kinda thing.  That alone can do far more damage to us that any Snowden every could.  We as a people are allowing our private rights to be eroded right under our eyes and it is our own government doing it.

red herring diane.  everyone knows that the constitution and liberty were destroyed by passing health care.

Your right.  I forgot.  Pardon me. 

[peestandingup]

^ Then when else could it be "justified" in your opinion? From the government itself? Corporate controlled media?? Good luck with that.

Well of course those chinese simpletons simply had no idea that we were spying on them.  They are such children really, if you think about it.  Its not like theyve had a few thousand years of some of the most spy intensive history on planet earth to draw from.

Perhaps the only real surprises in the Snowden revelations were to the american public, who did not fund their government with the purposes of having their underwear drawers and amazon.com look ups spied on.

True, but they're doing a lot more than looking at our Amazon Wish List. Basically an entire surveillance grid front to back. The online part is just a piece of it (think cameras everywhere, that phone in your pocket tracking everywhere you go, who you're around, etc). The terrorist threat angle, while legit in some aspects, is just a front. The threat is us.

+1

Not unexpected... but wow...

yeah.  turns out that the people who were against torturing people are also against unlawfully spying on citizens as well.

Something tells me BT was also labelling anyone discussing these things years ago, esp during Dubya, were nothing more than crazy tin foil hatters. Who probably hated America too. Nevermind you have a better chance of being struck by lightening, like twice, before being killed by terrorism.

Keep hope alive, Bridge! We'll get them boogiemen terrorists soon & win this war. In the meantime, we're gonna need to log everything you do & keep it indefinitely. You know, just in case. Freedom, patriotism, eagles & stuff. #murica

[BridgeTroll]

BT, honest question.  How is it that you think it is wise to allow this much intrusion into the private lives of American citizens under the guise of protecting us?  A kind of for our own good mentality and the government is the parent.   The erosion of our privacy and rights alone can do far more damage to us that any Snowden every could.  We as a people are allowing our private rights to be eroded right under our eyes and it is our own government doing it. 

What was the topic you started CC?  Snowden broke the law.  While perhaps not a traitor... he should certainly be prosecuted as a criminal... and clearly deserves no award.

[Cheshire Cat]

BT, honest question.  How is it that you think it is wise to allow this much intrusion into the private lives of American citizens under the guise of protecting us?  A kind of for our own good mentality and the government is the parent.   The erosion of our privacy and rights alone can do far more damage to us that any Snowden every could.  We as a people are allowing our private rights to be eroded right under our eyes and it is our own government doing it. 

What was the topic you started CC?  Snowden broke the law.  While perhaps not a traitor... he should certainly be prosecuted as a criminal... and clearly deserves no award.

I think when looking at the choice Snowden made to share this information one factor looms large in my mind.  He did not take what he learned and sell it to another country be it China, Iran, Russia or anywhere else.  He took the troubling information he found out right to the American people.  If this was about undermining our safety or the country he would have sold it to a power hating the U.S.A.  He is very much a whistle blower trying to let his countrymen and women know that somehow in the process of fighting terrorism and gathering information the government started stepping over the rights to privacy of it's own citizens and in many cases began spying on them. This is a very dangerous thing that if left unchecked can readily erode other important rights of citizens.  I don't think Snowdens intent was criminal and I do believe the country needed to know the truth.  I do believe he felt that the people had the right to know how their private lives and actions are no longer private nor are they protected.  That scares me much more than Snowden's actions.   

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Just some personal, not completely informed thoughts on the matter....

If Snowden was able to not only see this information and extract it, what does that say about the security of the information he disclosed in general?  Are we to just assume that he was some genius that flaunted his security access or was it truly that easy to extract?

The information that he made public (I'm not even going to pretend to know what all he released)....  are we to just go off of blind faith that our government is only using this info for our 'protection'?  What's to keep the less than northern moral compass types from using this information for their own personal gain?  Do we need more examples even outside of our own community, how personal/private information is kept from the GP in the name of private wealth enhancement?

While I agree that there must be secrets kept, I still believe that government should operate in a state of full disclosure.  How does that compromise our national security?  I'm going to dumb it down a bit and suggest that we relate all the 'national secrets' to the same argument v/s concealed weapon permitting v/s open carry. 

With the former, it is unknown whether your adversary even has a weapon, what kind it is, if it's armed and their skill with it. 

With the latter, you know exactly what your adversary is carrying.  The only question you have to ask yourself is if they're a better draw than you are. 

It's no secret that all nations are spying on each other.  The sticky point of the situation is how much is our own nation spying on itself, why, and to what gain?

[I-10east]

Any notion that Snowden 'protected anyone' is silly IMO. Then again, many people (particularly many liberals) are so quick to make martyrs out of these 'anti-establishment' types....

[I-10east]

^^^If you wanna have a real conversation about this, lets talk about Edward Snowden, don't bring up any civil rights icons; The far left always does that everytime; It's like on que or something. Just like if I specifically was talking about the faults of a democratic president, and Joey Wind-turbine over here has to bring up George Bush. So typical....

[peestandingup]

Actually, if you wanna have a real conversation about this, the thing to do is not focus on some individual (like the media is doing on purpose as a distraction, he's irrelevant), but rather the facts/information itself & try to figure out what exactly is happening to our country.

[Cheshire Cat]

Just some personal, not completely informed thoughts on the matter....

If Snowden was able to not only see this information and extract it, what does that say about the security of the information he disclosed in general?  Are we to just assume that he was some genius that flaunted his security access or was it truly that easy to extract?

The information that he made public (I'm not even going to pretend to know what all he released)....  are we to just go off of blind faith that our government is only using this info for our 'protection'?  What's to keep the less than northern moral compass types from using this information for their own personal gain?  Do we need more examples even outside of our own community, how personal/private information is kept from the GP in the name of private wealth enhancement?

While I agree that there must be secrets kept, I still believe that government should operate in a state of full disclosure.  How does that compromise our national security?  I'm going to dumb it down a bit and suggest that we relate all the 'national secrets' to the same argument v/s concealed weapon permitting v/s open carry. 

With the former, it is unknown whether your adversary even has a weapon, what kind it is, if it's armed and their skill with it. 

With the latter, you know exactly what your adversary is carrying.  The only question you have to ask yourself is if they're a better draw than you are. 

It's no secret that all nations are spying on each other.  The sticky point of the situation is how much is our own nation spying on itself, why, and to what gain?

This really is the point isn't it?  The fact that he could do what he did in my opinion exposed a flawed system.  The fact that he made this known to the American people made us further aware of how rapidly our right to privacy is being lost at the hands of our own government.

[Cheshire Cat]

Any notion that Snowden 'protected anyone' is silly IMO. Then again, many people (particularly many liberals) are so quick to make martyrs out of these 'anti-establishment' types....

I-10.  While your statement fits your feelings about "liberal types" what you said just isn't true. Who are liberal types anyway?  Unthinking fools in your view? Lets just be clear about one thing, having a different view of an issue or action does not mean that the view is without value.  It's important to listen to what the other person is saying with some degree of respect and without labels.   That doesn't mean we have to agree but we can agree to disagree without attacking the others level of intelligence.  I actually think the differences in views help to keep us thinking and in the long run perhaps even balanced.  I can tell you that I would not want to live in a world where everyone's thinking was the same.  That would be it's own kind of hell in my opinion. 

[ben says]

I admit: I'm coming in rather late in this conversation....but, I'll throw in my .02 cents.

I can't think of a single substantive complaint against Snowden.

Government for the people, by the people...remember?

For government to run efficiently and justly, it needs an educated and informed populace. Not a populace that's in the dark.

The guy is obviously a whistleblower, and one that deserves every "medal" we can throw at him. A shame he's holed away in Moscow.

Oh, and I don't buy for a second he jeopardized our national security...yeah, like Iran and North Korea are going to get together to do some sneaky shit to us. Right. Nothing we haven't done to the other 192 UN members.

We often forget...America, land of the not-so-free, ain't the product of immaculate conception. We can, and often do, do wrong.

[Cheshire Cat]

Actually, if you wanna have a real conversation about this, the thing to do is not focus on some individual (like the media is doing on purpose as a distraction, he's irrelevant), but rather the facts/information itself & try to figure out what exactly is happening to our country.

What is happening to our privacy and freedoms is key in this country and has me very worried.  What Snowden did was expose that reality.  Now it is time to have the bigger discussion about just how far we as Americans are going to allow this invasion into our privacy under the guise of protecting the country from terrorists. 

[Cheshire Cat]

BenSays 
We often forget...America, land of the not-so-free, ain't the product of immaculate conception. We can, and often do, do wrong

This is the truth Ben.  I agree.

[ben says]

Actually, if you wanna have a real conversation about this, the thing to do is not focus on some individual (like the media is doing on purpose as a distraction, he's irrelevant), but rather the facts/information itself & try to figure out what exactly is happening to our country.

What is happening to our privacy and freedoms is key in this country and has me very worried.  What Snowden did was expose that reality.  Now it is time to have the bigger discussion about just how far we as Americans are going to allow this invasion into our privacy under the guise of protecting the country from terrorists.

CC: a discussion about how far we as Americans are going to allow this invasion into our privacy is a good conversation.

That being said, I feel the bigger conversation is: what's creating the terrorists?

It seems we don't want to fix the source, but merely band-aid the result (at the expense of the American populace).