Edward Snowden Traitor or Whistleblower?

[Cheshire Cat]

Edward Snowden you likely remember is the young man in exile in Russia.  He fled the United States in fear of the reprisals he would face via the U.S. government because he divulged "secret" information that exposed some troubling policies in the United States. 

The government and some in America see him as a traitor.  Others see his actions as laudable and those of a whistle blower.  Snowden just received an honor from some fellow Americans who traveled to Russia to deliver it personally. Take a look at who those honoring him are.  I think they have it right.  Snowden shared some important information with average citizens in that what he exposed indicates our own rights and freedoms as Americans are being threatened.  I think he was brave to do what he did and that American's needed to know. What he exposed indicated that our own liberty is at risk.  That is a worrisome reality to my view.

The activists from the Sam Adams Associates for Integrity in Intelligence, an organization of former national security officials, praised Snowden for shining light on a secret government surveillance program. 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/snowdens-father-arrives-in-moscow/2013/10/10/ec4f6c32-3182-11e3-ad00-ec4c6b31cbed_story.html?hpid=z3

[BridgeTroll]

Was it reprisals he feared... or arrest and prosecution for laws broken? I am glad he is happy in Russia... 

[Cheshire Cat]

Was it reprisals he feared... or arrest and prosecution for laws broken? I am glad he is happy in Russia... 

I honestly don't know BT.  This is one of those situations that can be reasonably debated from both sides.  I actually think what he shared was important to the American people in that it exposed a real threat to our rights to privacy and personal liberty.  It can reasonably be argued that this disclosure could have hurt our homeland security as well.  As I said, I see both sides of the argument but lean toward seeing him as a whistle blower as opposed to a traitor.  Of course others will see it differently. 

[urbanlibertarian]

I say whistleblower.  How can we have a democracy when so much is done in secret?  Who watches the watchmen?

[Cheshire Cat]

I say whistleblower.  How can we have a democracy when so much is done in secret?  Who watches the watchmen?

I think most of America would be horrified to know what our government does in secret.  What also helps to keep folks from knowing all is the use of private industry hired by government for a number of projects that are not open to the scrutiny of the public.  From Black ops to NASA.

To my view the drone programs, the intrusions into our smart phones and personal computers is chilling.  I believe that Snowden did us a "solid" by sharing what he did.  I only hope that his situation will no keep others from sharing information with Americans about American government policies and actions.  It would be devastating if they did not.  It's a different situation but this calls to mind the exposure of "Watergate".  If those reporters had not been willing to take a chance a corrupt president would likely have remained in office. 

Here is a simple example of how private companies are hired by NASA.  Not a problem in most cases but in others it is the choice dejour when it comes to secrecy as the private industry players are not required to share info with the public.  http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2013/08/12/north-texas-company-helping-launch-nasa-space-lander/

[Cheshire Cat]

Was it reprisals he feared... or arrest and prosecution for laws broken? I am glad he is happy in Russia... 

I honestly don't know BT.  This is one of those situations that can be reasonably debated from both sides.  I actually think what he shared was important to the American people in that it exposed a real threat to our rights to privacy and personal liberty.  It can reasonably be argued that this disclosure could have hurt our homeland security as well.  As I said, I see both sides of the argument but lean toward seeing him as a whistle blower as opposed to a traitor.  Of course others will see it differently.

If thats the case then logic would dictate that he is both a whistle blower and a traitor.
They aren't mutually exclusive descriptions.

Therein lies the rub! 

[BridgeTroll]

I say whistleblower.  How can we have a democracy when so much is done in secret?  Who watches the watchmen?

I think most of America would be horrified to know what our government does in secret.  What also helps to keep folks from knowing all is the use of private industry hired by government for a number of projects that are not open to the scrutiny of the public.  From Black ops to NASA.

To my view the drone programs, the intrusions into our smart phones and personal computers is chilling.  I believe that Snowden did us a "solid" by sharing what he did.  I only hope that his situation will no keep others from sharing information with Americans about American government policies and actions.  It would be devastating if they did not.  It's a different situation but this calls to mind the exposure of "Watergate".  If those reporters had not been willing to take a chance a corrupt president would likely have remained in office. 

Here is a simple example of how private companies are hired by NASA.  Not a problem in most cases but in others it is the choice dejour when it comes to secrecy as the private industry players are not required to share info with the public.  http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2013/08/12/north-texas-company-helping-launch-nasa-space-lander/

You say... "I think most of America would be horrified to know what our government does in secret."  No doubt.  I have seen a few things myself...  The other "scary" side of the coin is... Most of our "friends" and enemies would love to know what our government does in secret.  There is a process in place for people like snowden... there is congressional oversight... there are processes in place.  Snowden... and people like him do not get to decide what they are going to leak to the world.  when they do... they should be prosecuted severely.

Now... you may take issue with the oversight.  Fair enough.  But it is a separate issue.  Fix the process... but we cannot have people deciding for themselves what to divulge in a spasm of spiritual revelation...

[Cheshire Cat]

I say whistleblower.  How can we have a democracy when so much is done in secret?  Who watches the watchmen?

I think most of America would be horrified to know what our government does in secret.  What also helps to keep folks from knowing all is the use of private industry hired by government for a number of projects that are not open to the scrutiny of the public.  From Black ops to NASA.

To my view the drone programs, the intrusions into our smart phones and personal computers is chilling.  I believe that Snowden did us a "solid" by sharing what he did.  I only hope that his situation will no keep others from sharing information with Americans about American government policies and actions.  It would be devastating if they did not.  It's a different situation but this calls to mind the exposure of "Watergate".  If those reporters had not been willing to take a chance a corrupt president would likely have remained in office. 

Here is a simple example of how private companies are hired by NASA.  Not a problem in most cases but in others it is the choice dejour when it comes to secrecy as the private industry players are not required to share info with the public.  http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2013/08/12/north-texas-company-helping-launch-nasa-space-lander/

You say... "I think most of America would be horrified to know what our government does in secret."  No doubt.  I have seen a few things myself...  The other "scary" side of the coin is... Most of our "friends" and enemies would love to know what our government does in secret.  There is a process in place for people like snowden... there is congressional oversight... there are processes in place.  Snowden... and people like him do not get to decide what they are going to leak to the world.  when they do... they should be prosecuted severely.

Now... you may take issue with the oversight.  Fair enough.  But it is a separate issue.  Fix the process... but we cannot have people deciding for themselves what to divulge in a spasm of spiritual revelation...

I know what you are saying BT and readily understand why some of these measures are put into place.  The other part of my understanding has to do with the reality that many of these oversight measures are abused by individual departments in the government.  Now do you really want to discus "congressional" oversight right now considering the current and past messes they have collectively created?  lol  Not sure that makes me feel any better about the issue. 

[BridgeTroll]

I say whistleblower.  How can we have a democracy when so much is done in secret?  Who watches the watchmen?

I think most of America would be horrified to know what our government does in secret.  What also helps to keep folks from knowing all is the use of private industry hired by government for a number of projects that are not open to the scrutiny of the public.  From Black ops to NASA.

To my view the drone programs, the intrusions into our smart phones and personal computers is chilling.  I believe that Snowden did us a "solid" by sharing what he did.  I only hope that his situation will no keep others from sharing information with Americans about American government policies and actions.  It would be devastating if they did not.  It's a different situation but this calls to mind the exposure of "Watergate".  If those reporters had not been willing to take a chance a corrupt president would likely have remained in office. 

Here is a simple example of how private companies are hired by NASA.  Not a problem in most cases but in others it is the choice dejour when it comes to secrecy as the private industry players are not required to share info with the public.  http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2013/08/12/north-texas-company-helping-launch-nasa-space-lander/

You say... "I think most of America would be horrified to know what our government does in secret."  No doubt.  I have seen a few things myself...  The other "scary" side of the coin is... Most of our "friends" and enemies would love to know what our government does in secret.  There is a process in place for people like snowden... there is congressional oversight... there are processes in place.  Snowden... and people like him do not get to decide what they are going to leak to the world.  when they do... they should be prosecuted severely.

Now... you may take issue with the oversight.  Fair enough.  But it is a separate issue.  Fix the process... but we cannot have people deciding for themselves what to divulge in a spasm of spiritual revelation...

I know what you are saying BT and readily understand why some of these measures are put into place.  The other part of my understanding has to do with the reality that many of these oversight measures are abused by individual departments in the government.  Now do you really want to discus "congressional" oversight right now considering the current and past messes they have collectively created?  lol  Not sure that makes me feel any better about the issue. 

There is little doubt that I distrust the bureaucracy of government more than you.  Unlike yourself apparently... I am unwilling to let random individuals make random decisions regarding national security.  I simply do not understand how you could take that position.

Even if you agree with the "government spying on you angle" justifies snowdens actions... What else that he released was really good info for... the Chinese... the Russians... Iran... n korea...  It simply cannot be justified... at all.

[peestandingup]

^ Then when else could it be "justified" in your opinion? From the government itself? Corporate controlled media?? Good luck with that.

[Cheshire Cat]

It's not so much about being willing to allow random individuals random acts.  It's more about recognizing that the parameters of what is and isn't shared with American citizens in the view of a congress that has many folks with agenda's populating it and others who think government has the right to invade our privacy is not something I am willing to completely trust. It could be that the congressional view of what should remain secret may not be in the best interest of the citizens of America. Perhaps the policy is more inline with government agencies who wish to have even greater control over our private lives and allowing various corporate interests that are connected to sitting officials remain behind the curtain of homeland security.  That is my concern.  There will always be whistle blowers, even in government and with the technology available today and the growing use of the internet there will be less and less control over some secrets.  As far as fearing the info going to China, Russia, Iran etc. Snowden's actions revealed a weakness in the system that the government thought was secure. That exposure was telling because if he can exploit that weakness our enemies can too and likely have. In that way he made the U.S. government aware that their system was faulty. As I said earlier, this situation can be reasonably argued from both sides in my opinion.  Now as far as the decisions made by random individuals, I think we have several of those types currently in office within our government making these secret decisions.  I find it all worrisome.

[Cheshire Cat]

Just saw the updates from PSU and Stephen.  I think their thinking is more inline with what I am trying to say.   But know BT, that I do understand your argument and respect it, I just don't agree with it.

[peestandingup]

^ Then when else could it be "justified" in your opinion? From the government itself? Corporate controlled media?? Good luck with that.

Well of course those chinese simpletons simply had no idea that we were spying on them.  They are such children really, if you think about it.  Its not like theyve had a few thousand years of some of the most spy intensive history on planet earth to draw from.

Perhaps the only real surprises in the Snowden revelations were to the american public, who did not fund their government with the purposes of having their underwear drawers and amazon.com look ups spied on.

True, but they're doing a lot more than looking at our Amazon Wish List. Basically an entire surveillance grid front to back. The online part is just a piece of it (think cameras everywhere, that phone in your pocket tracking everywhere you go, who you're around, etc). The terrorist threat angle, while legit in some aspects, is just a front. The threat is us.

[Cheshire Cat]

^ Then when else could it be "justified" in your opinion? From the government itself? Corporate controlled media?? Good luck with that.

Well of course those chinese simpletons simply had no idea that we were spying on them.  They are such children really, if you think about it.  Its not like theyve had a few thousand years of some of the most spy intensive history on planet earth to draw from.

Perhaps the only real surprises in the Snowden revelations were to the american public, who did not fund their government with the purposes of having their underwear drawers and amazon.com look ups spied on.

True, but they're doing a lot more than looking at our Amazon Wish List. Basically an entire surveillance grid front to back. The online part is just a piece of it (think cameras everywhere, that phone in your pocket tracking everywhere you go, who you're around, etc). The terrorist threat angle, while legit in some aspects, is just a front. The threat is us.

+1

[BridgeTroll]

^ Then when else could it be "justified" in your opinion? From the government itself? Corporate controlled media?? Good luck with that.

Well of course those chinese simpletons simply had no idea that we were spying on them.  They are such children really, if you think about it.  Its not like theyve had a few thousand years of some of the most spy intensive history on planet earth to draw from.

Perhaps the only real surprises in the Snowden revelations were to the american public, who did not fund their government with the purposes of having their underwear drawers and amazon.com look ups spied on.

True, but they're doing a lot more than looking at our Amazon Wish List. Basically an entire surveillance grid front to back. The online part is just a piece of it (think cameras everywhere, that phone in your pocket tracking everywhere you go, who you're around, etc). The terrorist threat angle, while legit in some aspects, is just a front. The threat is us.

+1

Not unexpected... but wow...