Metro Jacksonville

Quote

Jacksonville Jaguars owner Shad Khan said Thursday he is interested in developing the vacant Shipyards property, which is near EverBank Field and is the most visible open space along the St. Johns River on Downtown's Northbank.

"I think it can be greatly enhanced" to bring economic vibrancy to Downtown, he said.

Khan said his organization is talking with the City, which owns the 40-acre property. He did not specify the details of those talks.

Asked if he had ideas for the property, he said, "lots of ideas. Hundreds of ideas."

"It has to be a destination," he said. "It's Downtown 101."

Khan said people come Downtown to work and then leave. He wants to change that.

Khan spoke with reporters Thursday after he accepted the 15th Annual Thompson S. Baker "Solid as a Rock" Award at the Junior Achievement of North Florida Hall of Fame event at EverBank Field.

Khan did not talk about his interest in the Shipyards in his remarks when he received the award.

In speaking with reporters, he didn't delve into details about the property or any plans, but said the property is "something we can really make a difference" in.

"That is the face," he said, calling it a "very, very high-profile" property.

He declined to talk further about the talks with the City, saying the conversations are pending.

David DeCamp, director of communications for Mayor Alvin Brown, acknowledged Khan's interest.

"Shad Khan has expressed interest in developing the Shipyards property. The discussion was preliminary," DeCamp said.

"Any disposition of City-owned land will follow the City of Jacksonville disposition process. We are very focused on activating the resident and fan experience on our waterfront," he said.

"The Jaguars are an important part of the city's economy and brand, and we look forward to hearing more about this concept as their plans develop," DeCamp said.

The Shipyards property is vacant land stretching from The Plaza at Berkman, which is near the old county courthouse property, to Metropolitan Park and the sports complex.

Late Thursday, Khan issued a statement about his interest in the Shipyards:

"I've said all along, Jacksonville has great potential. Developing the north bank of the riverfront would go a long way toward achieving our potential. The shipyards are the front door to our home, EverBank Field, as well as the entire Sports Complex," said the statement.

"A new life for the Shipyards would be good news for the Jaguars, EverBank Field, the Sports Complex and all of Downtown Jacksonville."

Several developers unsuccessfully attempted residential, office and retail projects on the site since it closed as a working shipyard. The City ended up owning the property after failed attempts by developers.

The Jacksonville Civic Council Northbank Redevelopment Task Force's February 2011 report referred to the Shipyards property as a potential "magnificent mixed-use urban fabric extending from the central business district, along the river, to the sports complex."

Khan has made inroads into Downtown investment already. In April, his Stache Investments Corp. financed the acquisition by a private group of the Laura Street Trio and the old Barnett Bank Building Downtown.

He said that deal was one of many investments and initiatives he supports in the community, including his pledge to meet with selected creators in the One Spark festival and possibly invest.

"I think for me, it's really about committing to a community," Khan said.

Khan said he supports growth in the community, including investments in local business, but prefers to do some of it quietly.

"There are many touch points to make a difference," he said.

Khan, president and owner of Flex-N-Gate Corp., bought the Jaguars in January 2012. He paid $770 million to buy the franchise from Wayne and Delores Barr Weaver and their ownership group.

Khan said at the Junior Achievement event there would be announcements in the next week or two about initiatives regarding the Jaguars that had national and international impacts.

Regarding Tim Tebow, who signed this week with the New England Patriots, Khan said he was happy for him.

"I am delighted for Tim. He's a great player and it's a great situation," he said.

Tebow is the hometown quarterback who played at Nease High School, the University of Florida, the Denver Broncos and then the New York Jets, which released him in April.

Vocal Tebow fans wanted the Jaguars to sign him, but Jaguars General Manager Dave Caldwell has said he "can't imagine a scenario" where Tebow would be a Jacksonville Jaguar

^^^Hmmm....

Sounds like Khan is open to bankrolling the development of the land, but my hopes aren't up...he's a smart man and probably knows that condos and offices aren't the use that will generate buzz and activity there in the Jacksonville market.  I'm sure he's thinking of highly public uses - local version of a market with vendors and restaurants, brewery, park, museum and/or attraction, etc.  I would think he would view such a loss as part of his overall nearly billion dollar investment in the city, his way of making the city a more publicly attractive and interesting place and a way to get more people interested in coming down for games, or at least pre/post game activities.

Quote from: simms3 on June 14, 2013, 02:09:21 PM
^^^Hmmm....

Sounds like Khan is open to bankrolling the development of the land, but my hopes aren't up...he's a smart man and probably knows that condos and offices aren't the use that will generate buzz and activity there in the Jacksonville market.  I'm sure he's thinking of highly public uses - local version of a market with vendors and restaurants, brewery, park, museum and/or attraction, etc.  I would think he would view such a loss as part of his overall nearly billion dollar investment in the city, his way of making the city a more publicly attractive and interesting place and a way to get more people interested in coming down for games, or at least pre/post game activities.

Hey Simms - I've been off the grid for a while.  What do you think of multifamily rentals here; assuming you don't have to build a deck?  Maybe wait to see what kind of rents 220 Riverside ends up getting first?

^^^I would be disappointed if the city allowed rentals to be built on the Shipyards site.  Definitely NOT highest and best use.  I don't know of many cities that allow for a development pattern that puts rentals on prime real estate (which is usually not cost effective anyway due to higher land price per unit).

Also, in Jacksonville if it's not a wrapped deck, it's what most apartments in Jax are - garden style with surface parking.  Is that what we want around the core?  Not an efficient use of more expensive land (well, relatively speaking ha).

I suppose if the market would support it, a developer could do a high rise with podium or structured parking on the Shipyards to reduce the land basis and spread it over more units.  Land isn't really expensive enough to justify that, though, and the last thing we need is poorly designed rental towers over podiums on the riverfront.  Ew.


RE 220 Riverside:  I'm outspoken on my thoughts and inquisitiveness towards the project.

Who the hell knows what kind of rents they're going to achieve at 220 Riverside ($1.50-$1.60psf?, maybe higher?).  It's an all equity deal.  One can do simple math to test what they'll need to achieve to get to a 1.5x equity multiple if they don't plan on holding the thing for a while (most development deals are not build + hold unless you're not hitting your numbers and you have persuaded your investors that patience is the only way they'll get their money back or the return you promised).  For comparison, we often do development deals seeking a 2.0x multiple or greater, and obviously an intensely high double-digit return, but most of our deals are also leveraged.

Land price per unit there is $12.5K as I believe they paid $3.7M (this is still lowww), and construction costs in Jax are among the cheapest in the country - it's still a mostly wood frame construction above the first floor and there isn't a shortage of labor/materials in the city like there is in others.  They also received $5M in incentives, which as taxpayers we should not strive for with every deal.

Still, it's telling that it took TEN years for that project to even start and it's not financed.  I'm sure there are people DYING to see how fast it leases up and at what rates and what concessions, if any.  I'm one of them.

Question is - would you want to see more 220 Riverside on the Shipyards land?  I really would not.  It's cheap cookie cutter rental housing even if it looks new and hip/fresh for Jax (believe me, that style does get old...just go to Charlotte, Atlanta, Raleigh, etc).

BTW I just did a quick test, assuming the equity in the deal is $37M and they're able to cash in within 12 months of delivery (aka it takes a short 6 months to stabilize and 6 months to bring to market and close a deal), at an opex ratio of 40%, rents of $1.50, economic occupancy of 95%, and average unit size of 750 SF, they'll basically break even, assuming a 6 cap on in-place (in aggressive markets buyers will annualize the last 30 leases or maybe 3 months over the past 12 months of expenses), which seems right for that market if there is development risk nearby and rents below $1.60psf.  Using these same metrics, a 5% cap on $1.80psf rent gets them to 1.5x multiple, which isn't really that great (we do plenty of development deals hoping for and achieving 2.0x or greater, most are leveraged...though we've certainly bombed out before, on a multifamily deal I worked on actually!).  $1.80psf effective rent is $1,350 for a 750 SF unit.  Can the market support 294 such units at that rent?  Only time will tell.

And the only people who are going to pay a 5-cap (aka they are leveraged at a swapped or floating spread 200-250 BPs ahead of 10 YR Treasuries, which are on the way up squeezing the so-called yield spread quite thin on present day pricing), are REITs and institutional funds, and they just don't look at Jacksonville.  Also, they'll only pay that 5-cap if they don't see unemployment risk and nearby development risk...they're banking only on healthy rent growth.  If 220 Riverside is successful, the catch 22 is that DT area could be viewed as highly undersupplied due to no construction, and all of a sudden dirt is moving everywhere, and there is then downward pressure on rents.  So maybe we're looking at selling this for a 6-cap, which means if you build and immediately sell, effective capped rents need to be at $2.15psf, which is impossible for Jax (Atlanta is hitting those numbers on some deals, but that's Atlanta).  Austin is hitting $2.25 on some deals.  Charlotte's down at $1.75-$1.85, maybe higher now.  So this might actually be a develop and hold for ~3-4 year deal (holding for 4 years post stabilization year at 3% rent growth on $1.60 starting gets you to 1.5x multiple and ~10% unleveraged IRR...so you profit around $18-20M).

Sorry I totally geeked out on this - but I intensely track these kind of projects.  I have the original underwriting for a rental tower that just went up in Atlanta, and I tracked that project closely and followed its progress for the same reason (even built a little model on the knowledge I do have of the project to see how it performs, who buys it, etc).  I likely will never have as much knowledge about 220 Riverside, but you can bet that the developers will be talking about it at events/panel discussions, etc...it's a big case study for the market.

My quick back of the napkin math assumes $125K/door cost and $154K/door exit, which is about the record in NE FL (Tattersall in 2012 sold for $153K/door).

NO RENTALS FOR SHIPYARDS!!

edit: found out they paid $3.7M for land and MAA the backer (REIT with low cost of capital) expects to end up paying around $39.5M, which changes my little math a bit.  MAA is merging with Colonial, another REIT, and Jax is now a top 10 Sunbelt metro focus for MAA.

It seems like a lot of construction is owner/occupant even in terms of commercial.  The Everbank building was originally finances with most of the tenants buying into the partnership.  Even 220 Riverside as originally proposed to me 7 years ago was commercial condo.

Absent a prearranged anchor tenant, I wonder if any commercial or residential construction can be financed in downtown Jacksonville as anything other than owner/occupant.  I just don't see the demand for downtown office space as of yet that would justify the financial speculation on an unoccupied tower.

And, without the infrastructure for residential development in place, i.e. grocery stores, retail, etc., it seems like it would take a significant equity player as developer and the ability to execute on a mixed use development.

Unfortunately, it still seems like a classic chicken and egg situation to me .. what comes first????

I wonder if this "event" is part of an effort to refocus attention on the Shipyards.  Perhaps. :)  Ben are you going to be part of this?  Get out there and support "Intuition Ale Works"

Quote• The Shipyards property Downtown will be the host site for Jaxtoberfest, a two-day festival featuring local breweries, restaurants, and children's activities. The event will be Oct. 11-12 and feature a 5K Beer Run, music, games and more

And more on the festival.

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/403251/tom-szaroleta/2013-08-13/fall-festival-planned-shipyards

QuotePlans were announced this week for a Jaxtoberfest festival at the Jacksonville Shipyards, with German food, music and a 5K run.

The inaugural festival is scheduled for Oct. 11-12 on the long-vacant shipyard property, on the banks of the St. Johns River between downtown and Metropolitan Park.

Two stages are planned for live entertainment. The festival's website, jaxtoberfest.com, lists two bands that have been booked -- The Swinging Bavarians from Central Florida and The Rhinelanders.

Beer will definitely be a part of the festival, which opens each day with a traditional keg tapping ceremony. A beer barrel race, a stein holding competition and a "safe slam drinking contest" are among the activities planned. Nine beers will be featured, including brews from Jacksonville's Aardwolf Brewing Co. and Intuition Ale Works.

Admission is $8

It would be nice if the Shipyards were developed.It certainly is an eyesore now and proof of how backward Jacksonville is. Whats with the half completed highrise at Berkman Plaza?
I'd like to see development that would include something along the lines of including something like the Pike Street Market in Seattle or Girradelli Square in San Francisco or Harbor Place in Balimore. This town needs to grow up.

I believe the Berkman Plaza is still mired in lawsuits due to the collapse of the garage which resulted in the death of a worker.

QuoteI wonder if this "event" is part of an effort to refocus attention on the Shipyards.  Perhaps.   Ben are you going to be part of this?  Get out there and support "Intuition Ale Works"

There was another event scheduled for the Shipyards leading up to TPC that got rained out.  Sports and Entertainment have looked at ways to activate the property with large events.  It's not really a site that you can do something small with as there are specific site considerations associated with holding events there.

The shipyards would be a great temporary event space, however as I have found out the hard way... the site itself presents some unique limitations from a risk perspective.  Jason Fisher (of Content Design) and myself talked to several people about decking out the space temporarily with shipping container storefronts, sort of like Brooklyn Flea (you can google that).  Although it was always met with a 'great idea', no one has wanted to put in the work to help make that vision a reality.  Unfortunately, you do need help with things from time to time no matter how resourceful you are.  This is one of those things you would need help with.

QuoteI believe the Berkman Plaza is still mired in lawsuits due to the collapse of the garage which resulted in the death of a worker.

What complicates that further is that all of those companies have gone belly up.

Meanwhile, the City still holds bond debt on the property.

Several parties have approached the City with creative ways to carve out at least a part of the property (sort of like the Columbus Commons model posted about extensively on MJ), but the City hasn't been really looking to get creative apparently.  Khan's proposal included a tremendous handout from the City.  From what I understand of that deal, I don't think that it would be a great deal for taxpayers on the surface. 

Am I looking at the right thing Mike?  This would be a sort of antique flea market?  Something like this could also feature "food trucks" right?  Honestly, any idea that brings activity would be a good thing. Has this idea every been presented to the city?  Shoot, I sure ask a lot of questions!  lmao

http://www.brooklynflea.com/about/

Quote from: Cheshire Cat on August 14, 2013, 05:01:53 PM
Am I looking at the right thing Mike?  This would be a sort of antique flea market?  Something like this could also feature "food trucks" right?  Honestly, any idea that brings activity would be a good thing. Has this idea every been presented to the city?  Shoot, I sure ask a lot of questions!  lmao

http://www.brooklynflea.com/about/

Sorry, was actually referring to Dekalb Market (mind was spinning earlier).  Edit: Having trouble posting pics from the IPad at the moment

(http://www.lacasapark.com/la/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/IMG_6415-1024x768.jpg)

(http://commonthread.alternativeapparel.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/6a00e553cbc10c883401675f8b485c970b-800wi.jpg)

(http://nyulocal.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/7779185048_e0049b5248.jpeg)

Khan needs to stay out of the shipyards! That property belongs to this community and is in the borders of what the DIA is supposed to develop with public participation.

EOD is trying to usurp control from the DIA and attempting to control projects on property that rightfully belongs to the public. The EOD has caused public injury with their many failures two of which is LandMar and Trilegacy group on the shipyard property costing tax payers about $100 million.

WE just had that property returned to US about a year ago after a lengthy and expensive lawsuit and it belongs to us and the DIA gets to develop it for US, WITH public input.

This citys leadership already has a serious problem telling jaguar owners NO! Where they get everything they ask for regardless of how devastating it is to this community.

Do we really want someone threatening us even more then they already do if they dont get their way... like scoreboards? And now the shipyard? OUR waterfront property?

No! No way!

It will be done by some developer why not Khan. That said the city should certainly have input into it's use via the DDRB.

Quote from: Sunbeam on August 14, 2013, 09:07:49 PM
Khan needs to stay out of the shipyards! That property belongs to this community and is in the borders of what the DIA is supposed to develop with public participation.

EOD is trying to usurp control from the DIA and attempting to control projects on property that rightfully belongs to the public. The EOD has caused public injury with their many failures two of which is LandMar and Trilegacy group on the shipyard property costing tax payers about $100 million.

WE just had that property returned to US about a year ago after a lengthy and expensive lawsuit and it belongs to us and the DIA gets to develop it for US, WITH public input.

This citys leadership already has a serious problem telling jaguar owners NO! Where they get everything they ask for regardless of how devastating it is to this community.

Do we really want someone threatening us even more then they already do if they dont get their way... like scoreboards? And now the shipyard? OUR waterfront property?

No! No way!

It's people like you that's keeping this city from moving forward...Belong to this community?? yeah like sitting there empty? Let khan develop that property into something, anything would be good for this city.

don't worry Sunbeam....the DIA will have input in whatever happens at trhe Shipyards...and likely the Office of Economic Development (OED) will as well

Quote from: Stephen on August 14, 2013, 04:12:05 PMI'd like to see development that would include something along the lines of including something like the Pike Street Market in Seattle or Girradelli Square in San Francisco or Harbor Place in Balimore. This town needs to grow up.

You've basically described the original concept for the Landing.

Quote from: Stephen on August 14, 2013, 04:12:05 PM
It would be nice if the Shipyards were developed.It certainly is an eyesore now and proof of how backward Jacksonville is. Whats with the half completed highrise at Berkman Plaza?
I'd like to see development that would include something along the lines of including something like the Pike Street Market in Seattle or Girradelli Square in San Francisco or Harbor Place in Balimore. This town needs to grow up.

The question then is do you want a touristy waterfront or a waterfront used, lived in, and appreciated by locals?  Maybe on a small level the two mix, but typically as in the concepts you described they do not mix.  I'm working on Ghirardelli Square now as my company has it under contract :), so I'm intimately familiar with that property.  I do not want a similar concept (which is impossible because the tourist draw of GS is its 100+ year old name, its history, what it is, etc) for the Shipyards waterfront.

Ideally, the Shipyards would be akin to Baltimore's Inner Harbor.  A tourist attraction but with residential units, office and neighborhood support commercial uses included. 

But the office and residential demand is not there yet, and therefore no neighborhood support demand either. 

Quote from: vicupstate on August 15, 2013, 07:02:02 AM
Ideally, the Shipyards would be akin to Baltimore's Inner Harbor.  A tourist attraction but with residential units, office and neighborhood support commercial uses included. 

But the office and residential demand is not there yet, and therefore no neighborhood support demand either.

Why not just sell the land underneath the Landing and let him go forward with his plan?

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/development/downtown/image13.jpg)


Still think that finishing the riverwalk, cutting out public spaces and splitting up and creating seperate parcels for the Shipyards is the ideal scenario.  If a developer wants to the entire property (don't see why they would), they could buy all the parcels.  However, not relying on a mega project (three of which have already failed on this site) would allow businesses to open much like what happened along Milwaukee's riverfront:

(http://www.waterfrontcenter.org/Awards/Images/ThirdWard.jpg)

(http://www.onmilwaukee.com/images/articles/be/bestnewrestaurant11/bestnewrestaurant11_fullsize_story1.jpg)

(http://cpd.typepad.com/mkeimages/images/2008/08/31/milwaukee_images_image_of_the_day_0.jpg)


Or South Boston's Seaport District:

(http://www.cpexecutive.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/BOSTON-Seaport.jpg)

(http://bostonwatertransportation.com/images/harbornews_062311_restaurants.jpg)

Yeah, i'm not sure the Shipyards could ever be as akin to Baltimore's Inner Harbor as the riverfront between the Main and Acosta Bridges should be. It's not located in an area where downtown and several dense inner city neighborhoods can integrate well or funnel traffic into it on a daily basis. Jax would be better figuring something out with Sleiman and the Landing and finding ways to energize the riverfront by upgrading and adding to existing amenities within a compact centralized area.

I always find it interesting to see how people dream about what Jacksonville can be like..........with other people's money.

In reality, the dreams never come true because they aren't market rate based.  That's why fieldafm's suggestion makes sense:

QuoteStill think that finishing the riverwalk, cutting out public spaces and splitting up and creating seperate parcels for the Shipyards is the ideal scenario.  If a developer wants to the entire property (don't see why they would), they could buy all the parcels.  However, not relying on a mega project (three of which have already failed on this site) would allow businesses to open much like what happened along Milwaukee's riverfront:

If the public wants riverfront greenspace, then we should carve out what we want and fund it ourselves.  You can do what Columbus did with the Commons and create a situation where you could incrementally build around your designated greenspace in the future as the demand is created.  Sounds much better than giving public subsidies for mega development dreams that don't make sense with private money.

I totally agree that revamping the Landing area makes more sense, and should come first.  But the Inner Harbor is pretty big and if overlaided onto the Northbank, would cover the Landing footprint and the Shipyards as well.   Like Baltimore, it would happen in phases as demand warranted.   

Setting aside the public areas and executing those plans, would increase the interest in the remainding area.  I agree that what's left wouldn't have to be sold as one parcel. 

Quote from: mtraininjax on August 15, 2013, 08:32:26 AM
I always find it interesting to see how people dream about what Jacksonville can be like..........with other people's money.

With taxpayer's money as well, considering how much of that has already been spent on said property. 

Terry Casey just did an interview with Jags President Mark Lamping for the Making Moves TV show. He told Terry they consider the Shipyards the "front door" of the Sports Complex and would like to see something dynamic in that location. Then and only then would he expect to hear talk about Skyway expansion (or some other form of transit) into that area.

1)  Toney Sleiman does not need to own the land under the Landing to develop it.  Personally, I don't think he should, and just from my experience working on similar projects and knowing of similar projects the ground lease should not be an obstacle.  The market is.  Toney's inexperience at this kind of deal could be (a proposal of his size should definitely have an experienced partner, or two).  Nothing is going to happen there and you can blame who you want, but a creative, willing, experienced developer and a market would get something done there.

2) I can't speak at all to Baltimore's Inner Harbor not having been there and only having read about it and seen pics, but I have been to Seaport Boston and my company has made a couple of really large investments there within the past year.  This is not a comp for Jax in any way shape or form, nor is it even a "vibrant" area.  Along with Cambridge it's the hottest office market in the city right now, especially for large biotech campuses, and then there is also a good bit of creative office space, which we invested in.  There is a good lobster shack on the waterfront there just across the canal from the FiDi with live music though :)

3) I have been to Milwaukee's 3rd Ward a few times as I have a good friend in the city (plus Summerfest is right nearby :) ) - this area is really cool, but it is a bit of an irony.  It has become sort of the city's most exclusive area and most of those buildings are filled with million dollar condos.  Baby boomers have come back in full force and congregated here (moving from the lakefront or surrounding suburbs).  Plus most of the buildings were in place 100+ year old warehouses.  Not a real comp (plus the layout is very different than Shipyards).


I believe the comps to watch are in San Francisco Bay.  I have mentioned a large project in Oakland before, which is a bit of a boring project though it's $1.5B waterfront former shipyards site redevelopment.  Also, in San Francisco there are two waterfront sites south of the city that were former shipyards that are slowly being redeveloped.  I'll start posting links to things there - these are really good comps.  (and no I'm not talking about Mission Bay, which is a waterfront redevelopment scheme like Seaport in Boston - that's not a good comp)

Forest City's Pier 70

http://www.socketsite.com/archives/2013/01/pier_70_plans_unveiled_with_1000_housing_units_included.html

QuoteForest City has unveiled their plans for the redevelopment of the 69-acre Pier 70 site with a proposal for over two million square feet of office space, 275,000 feet for "artisans, retailers, designers, and boutique manufacturers," and up to 1,000 new housing units.

Phase one of the project, which would commence in 2016, includes the conversion of the hisoric 100,000-square-foot Building 2 into about 100 units of housing and the conversion of the historic 160,000-square-foot Building 12 into "a loft-style creative office building with a ground floor marketplace that spills out into the public plaza," the Market Square.

(http://www.socketsite.com/pier%2070%20Project%20Area.jpg)

(http://www.socketsite.com/Pier%2070%20Slipway%20commons.jpg)

(http://www.socketsite.com/pier%2070%20Market%20Square.jpg)

(http://www.socketsite.com/Pier%2070%20Slipway%20Promonade.jpg)


Oakland's Brooklyn Basin Waterfront

http://www.socketsite.com/archives/2013/04/oaklands_66acre_brooklyn_basin_development_finally_fund.html

QuoteIn the works for over a decade, Signature Development Group's 66-acre Brooklyn Basin development on Oakland's waterfront has been funded by way of a $1.5 billion investment from China's Zarsion Holdings Group and is slated to break ground next year.

The development of the former industrial site adjacent to Oakland's Jack London Square will yield 3,100 housing units, 200,000 square feet of retail/commercial, and 30 acres of waterfront parks, trails and open space along with new marinas and renewed wetlands.

The project will be built in phases and likley take around a decade to complete, eventually connecting Brooklyn Basin to Lake Merritt by way of bike and pedestrian paths. Click either of the images above, or an aerial of the area as it looks today, to enlarge.

(http://www.socketsite.com/Brooklyn%20Basin%20Rendering-thumb.jpg)

(http://www.socketsite.com/Brooklyn%20Basin%20Site%20Plan-thumb.gif)

(http://www.socketsite.com/Brooklyn%20Basin%20Site-thumb.jpg)



Regarding the Shipyards piers - they are really too narrow to build anything on them, which of course would make them that much more interesting.  As everyone who has recently built/building something on piers in SF can atest (new Warriors Arena, new Exploratorium, Anchor Steam brewery, new cruise terminal, etc etc)...the costs to structurally repair/boost the piers themselves is always way more than anticipated.

Has anyone been to Chelsea Piers on the west side of Manhattan? I think this would be perfect for the shipyards. It is described as:
"The Chelsea Piers Sports & Entertainment Complex is a 28-acre waterfront sports village located between 17th and 23rd Streets along Manhattan's Hudson River. This $120 million, privately-financed project opened in 1995, transforming four historic, but long-neglected, piers into a major center for public recreation and waterfront access. "

They have a driving range, fitness center, AstroTurf fields, bowling, ice rink, restaurants, etc.

http://www.chelseapiers.com/

(http://www.chelseapiers.com/new/images/home/CPNY_home_banner.jpg)

Quote from: bbush904 on August 15, 2013, 01:53:05 PM
Has anyone been to Chelsea Piers on the west side of Manhattan? I think this would be perfect for the shipyards. It is described as:
"The Chelsea Piers Sports & Entertainment Complex is a 28-acre waterfront sports village located between 17th and 23rd Streets along Manhattan's Hudson River. This $120 million, privately-financed project opened in 1995, transforming four historic, but long-neglected, piers into a major center for public recreation and waterfront access. "

They have a driving range, fitness center, AstroTurf fields, bowling, ice rink, restaurants, etc.

http://www.chelseapiers.com/

(http://www.chelseapiers.com/new/images/home/CPNY_home_banner.jpg)

I spend a lot of time here, and love it. But, as much as I love Jacksonville and want to see it prosper, this is not it. Chelsea Piers works because the extremely dense area in which it is located, most people outside of Chelsea, TriBeCa, Greenwich Village wouldn't even be able to tell you what is all there because it isn't designed for them. The recreation portions are attractive because it is year round opportunities in an area that is lacking in like space. The driving range stays busy because why bother driving out into Long Island or into Jersey when you can go there? All of those factors would not equal up in Jacksonville where they have plenty of open space, even though they don't use it well. Also, the upstairs of Chelsea Piers and the Marina are what keep them in the black. CBS Sports studios are there as well as Studio59 (home of the sets for "Law and Order TV series shows") and the fact that it is the only place in Manhattan where yachts 180'-400' can dock. If one of those three things were removed, Chelsea Piers would be bankrupt within 3 years.  As it is, Hudson River Park (in which Chelsea Piers is located) is already realizing that recreation and concession retail alone cannot support itself.

I think the best use of this site would be mixed use with residential/office/retail with park space for recreation. Even better if it could attach to Metro Park to utilize that. There are a lot of great ideas for this site, it is just going to take an investor willing to take a risk and the City willing to develop the site to its potential.

The Oakland project to me seems like the most comparable and realistic.

Quote from: simms3 on June 14, 2013, 09:31:20 PM
And the only people who are going to pay a 5-cap (aka they are leveraged at a swapped or floating spread 200-250 BPs ahead of 10 YR Treasuries, which are on the way up squeezing the so-called yield spread quite thin on present day pricing), are REITs and institutional funds, and they just don't look at Jacksonville.

Followed by:

Quoteedit: found out they paid $3.7M for land and MAA the backer (REIT with low cost of capital) expects to end up paying around $39.5M, which changes my little math a bit.  MAA is merging with Colonial, another REIT, and Jax is now a top 10 Sunbelt metro focus for MAA.

I know you like 'geeking out' on certain things and crunching a lot of misc. numbers, but I think it would be better for all of us if you could just get your facts straight.  Hmmmm?

QuoteToney Sleiman does not need to own the land under the Landing to develop it.  Personally, I don't think he should, and just from my experience working on similar projects and knowing of similar projects the ground lease should not be an obstacle.  The market is.  Toney's inexperience at this kind of deal could be (a proposal of his size should definitely have an experienced partner, or two).  Nothing is going to happen there and you can blame who you want, but a creative, willing, experienced developer and a market would get something done there.

You're letting personal opinion on someone dictate your view on a developer's financial capabilities without having personal knowledge of their situation.  I can tell you that you are completely misinformed.

QuoteAlong with Cambridge it's the hottest office market in the city right now, especially for large biotech campuses, and then there is also a good bit of creative office space, which we invested in. 

I think you are confusing South Boston's Innovation District in totality with how the waterfront was formed.   The city of boston did make that entire area a specific enterprise zone focusing on technology companies (which is a different discussion, and certainly worthy of exploration in it's own right). 

I'm referring to the plans that started about 17 years ago... the 'riverwalk' and related public spaces were in fact completed and the adjacents parcels filled in (and are still filling in today) around them incrementally.  The City only wanting to deal with a big mega-project ignores the Jax Shipyard site's history and market conditions.  It is far easier to follow the Columbus Commons model, carving out the public access in a way that preserves river access and selling off parcels individually instead of just as one large property.

The very first tenant in the 'new' South Boston waterfront wasn't a pharmaceutical company... it was Shipyards Brewery.

Sound familiar?

(http://assets.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/Intuition%20-%20Shipyards%2006-07-12_Siteplan%201000*600.jpg?v=1)


The City didnt want to play ball and 'break up the property'.  I learned three important things from baseball 1) don't scratch your crotch while people are watching  2) how many sticks of gum I can fit in my mouth, which helped me realize how big of a capacity my mouth had for when I later stuck my foot in it (and still do) and lastly 3) you get three strikes and your out.  The City already has three strikes on the Shipyards with mega-developments, its time for a new strategy and batter.

QuoteI have been to Milwaukee's 3rd Ward a few times as I have a good friend in the city (plus Summerfest is right nearby  ) - this area is really cool, but it is a bit of an irony.  It has become sort of the city's most exclusive area and most of those buildings are filled with million dollar condos.

Again, I believe you are confusing a discussion about urban form with rents.  Look at the market-driven development pattern at Third Ward (the city again revamped public access along the riverfront).  It wasn't one big mega-site, it was a series of smaller developments.  That's the key point in this discussion.

We already have an Inner Harbor.. that's the Jax Landing.  Work with what you already have and focus on a more realistic way to deal with the Shipyards in which you can control the development pattern and not rely on once again subsidizing a risky mega-development.  We're still stuck with that bill today as there is substantial bond debt outstanding on the Shipyards.  Khan's proposal relies on some pretty hefty city-assistance from what I understand of what is being asked for.

Quote from: bbush904 on August 15, 2013, 01:53:05 PM
Has anyone been to Chelsea Piers on the west side of Manhattan? I think this would be perfect for the shipyards. It is described as:
"The Chelsea Piers Sports & Entertainment Complex is a 28-acre waterfront sports village located between 17th and 23rd Streets along Manhattan's Hudson River. This $120 million, privately-financed project opened in 1995, transforming four historic, but long-neglected, piers into a major center for public recreation and waterfront access. "

They have a driving range, fitness center, AstroTurf fields, bowling, ice rink, restaurants, etc.

http://www.chelseapiers.com/

(http://www.chelseapiers.com/new/images/home/CPNY_home_banner.jpg)

Welcome to the forum!

More public space along the river would be great, but the Shipyards is not the right spot since it is surrounded by the Berkman, the jail, Maxwell House, Hart bridge access ramp and Metropolitan Park. Better to locate new public spaces downtown in locations that will drive redevelopment or new development of adjacent properties.

Welcome kbhanson3.  Love the interest from new posters.  Everyone's ideas and input is what seeds creative change.  :)

Chelsea Piers is great. I have a cousin who lives in NYC and she lives very close to Chelsea Piers. The great thing with all of this is I think Mr.Khan has the imagination to make up for the lack of imagination in this city.

Khan needs to piss or get off the pot. He is starting to remind me of Alvin Brown.

Quote from: jaxequality on August 15, 2013, 02:53:24 PM
Khan needs to piss or get off the pot. He is starting to remind me of Alvin Brown.

Khan doesn't have to do anything actually.  He made some comments about being interested in the Shipyards property and that he had ideas.  He made no further declaration and the media ran with his comments.  That does not put him in the position of being responsible to come up with the dollars and plans to do so to suit the public.  lol  He like anyone else can "dream" out loud.  It is purely his choice to act on that dream or not.

The ones responsible for the Shipyards property are currently holding office in City Hall.  They are the ones sitting on the "throne" right now.  If someone needs to take some sort of action or depart the "throne" I think they may be the ones to talk to.  8)

I'm just sick of the KHAN hype. Run for Mayor for all I care, but can we start moving forward already?

Thats the problem..Jacksonville does not move forward..It either stays as it is or moves backwards..

Quote from: jaxequality on August 15, 2013, 03:14:40 PM
I'm just sick of the KHAN hype. Run for Mayor for all I care, but can we start moving forward already?

Maybe what is underneath that feeling is the attitude that many seem to hold is that there is some person that will be a savior for downtown and Jacksonville.  Khan is the latest person upon whom people have focused that "fantasy".  The reality is that there is no one person that will save our downtown or grow Jacksonville for that matter.  It will be and has always been a collective effort.  The beginnings of that effort has always been with the people themselves.  Understanding that reality is what will bring us closer to understanding and doing something about who "we the people" entrust in positions of leadership.  It's politics and who the politicians are beholding to and that is almost always not the general public who elected them. 

QuoteThe City already has three strikes on the Shipyards with mega-developments, its time for a new strategy and batter.

I know about the Spence/Tri-Legacy strike and the Landmar strike, what was the three one?

Quote from: Cheshire Cat on August 15, 2013, 03:23:08 PM

Quote from: jaxequality on August 15, 2013, 03:14:40 PM
I'm just sick of the KHAN hype. Run for Mayor for all I care, but can we start moving forward already?

Maybe what is underneath that feeling is the attitude that many seem to hold is that there is some person that will be a savior for downtown and Jacksonville.  Khan is the latest person upon whom people have focused that "fantasy".  The reality is that there is no one person that will save our downtown or grow Jacksonville for that matter.  It will be and has always been a collective effort.  The beginnings of that effort has always been with the people themselves.  Understanding that reality is what will bring us closer to understanding and doing something about who "we the people" entrust in positions of leadership.  It's politics and who the politicians are beholding to and that is almost always not the general public who elected them.

Agreed. The current city leaders are weak.  It doesn't seem to matter what the "people" seem to want around here. I just had high hopes for Khan, and I think he is in it to win it. I'd just like to start seeing some movement. Jacksonville has HUGE potential and they all know it but like kings they wait and are keeping us on the edge of our seats.

Quote from: vicupstate on August 15, 2013, 10:32:06 AM
I totally agree that revamping the Landing area makes more sense, and should come first.  But the Inner Harbor is pretty big and if overlaided onto the Northbank, would cover the Landing footprint and the Shipyards as well.   Like Baltimore, it would happen in phases as demand warranted.

I overlayed the two in a 2009 article about the Inner Harbor.  We're more spread out than most can imagine. Think of everything the Inner Harbor has and imagine squeezing it in between the Acosta Bridge and the Hyatt Hotel.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/600014980_faZZ2-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/600015022_6PUdL-M.jpg)

Images of Inner Harbor: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-jul-elements-of-urbanism-baltimore

QuoteThe very first tenant in the 'new' South Boston waterfront wasn't a pharmaceutical company... it was Shipyards Brewery. Sound familiar?

The City dropped the ball on the Intuition Ale opportunity. Everyone can argue until they're blue in the face about whether it was the "right" location and whether the City would have gotten market value for the land, but the fact is that downtown needs momentum and it needs destination retail/restaurant/entertainment. In my experience, the early deals in a large scale project are the hardest to swallow because it often feels like you're giving it away even though you know you're sowing seeds for bigger deals down the road, and those are the deals that make or break the project.

Quote from: jaxequality on August 15, 2013, 03:37:30 PM

Quote from: Cheshire Cat on August 15, 2013, 03:23:08 PM

Quote from: jaxequality on August 15, 2013, 03:14:40 PM
I'm just sick of the KHAN hype. Run for Mayor for all I care, but can we start moving forward already?

Maybe what is underneath that feeling is the attitude that many seem to hold is that there is some person that will be a savior for downtown and Jacksonville.  Khan is the latest person upon whom people have focused that "fantasy".  The reality is that there is no one person that will save our downtown or grow Jacksonville for that matter.  It will be and has always been a collective effort.  The beginnings of that effort has always been with the people themselves.  Understanding that reality is what will bring us closer to understanding and doing something about who "we the people" entrust in positions of leadership.  It's politics and who the politicians are beholding to and that is almost always not the general public who elected them.

Agreed. The current city leaders are weak.  It doesn't seem to matter what the "people" seem to want around here. I just had high hopes for Khan, and I think he is in it to win it. I'd just like to start seeing some movement. Jacksonville has HUGE potential and they all know it but like kings they wait and are keeping us on the edge of our seats.

I believe Khan is doing a lot of moving that folks cannot see and his plans may be bigger than we would imagine.  First he has to build a winning team and to do so takes time (he gets that).  He also understands that more focus on Jacksonville will help him grow interest in his investment (the team) which is why he even set up some games in England and also why he is now into soccer.  He also invested in the One Spark festival which put focus on downtown.  He is doing all he needs to do to grow his business interests and Jacksonville is along for the ride.  He has no responsibility to the community beyond what he decides to take in order to secure his personal business plans.  It sounds to me like he has a great deal of interest in seeing Jacksonville become all that it could be but as a smart business person he will weigh his options and move when the time is right.  That time may not be in accordance with what others would have them do, but it's his money and his call.   The ones responsible to the citizens and our future is the elected officials.  We need to put the right ones in office and then hold them responsible, starting "yesterday". 

Quote from: thelakelander on August 15, 2013, 03:45:05 PM

Quote from: vicupstate on August 15, 2013, 10:32:06 AM
I totally agree that revamping the Landing area makes more sense, and should come first.  But the Inner Harbor is pretty big and if overlaided onto the Northbank, would cover the Landing footprint and the Shipyards as well.   Like Baltimore, it would happen in phases as demand warranted.

I overlayed the two in a 2009 article about the Inner Harbor.  We're more spread out than most can imagine. Think of everything the Inner Harbor has and imagine squeezing it in between the Acosta Bridge and the Hyatt Hotel.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/600014980_faZZ2-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/600015022_6PUdL-M.jpg)

Images of Inner Harbor: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-jul-elements-of-urbanism-baltimore

Thanks for the overlay's Ennis.  This certainly helps to put the project into a better perspective.

Quote from: jaxequality on August 15, 2013, 03:37:30 PM
Agreed. The current city leaders are weak.  It doesn't seem to matter what the "people" seem to want around here. I just had high hopes for Khan, and I think he is in it to win it. I'd just like to start seeing some movement. Jacksonville has HUGE potential and they all know it but like kings they wait and are keeping us on the edge of our seats.

Geez, he's been here for, what, two years.  Dude did not get wealthy throwing money around randomly.  Besides, who says things aren't moving?

Quote from: jaxequality on August 15, 2013, 02:53:24 PM
Khan needs to piss or get off the pot. He is starting to remind me of Alvin Brown.

I'm pretty sure Mr. Khan does this activity standing up. Though Lord knows he can afford to sit down for it, he seems like the type of go-getter that would do his business and be on his way. Misusing colloquialisms aside, he's not been here very long and has completely shaken up the Jaguars organization, proposed a facelift for the stadium, bought an EPL team, arranged for the Jags to play in England and Fulham to play in Jacksonville, financed a purchase of the most important piece of DT Jax real estate for revitalization, and prodded the City on doing something with an integral piece of DT landscape that has long been an eyesore, all while maintaining one of the best mustaches this side of Magnum PI. I'm sure he regrets that he hasn't been able to build whatever hair-brained, money-losing, pie-in-the-sky idea you have for the Shipyards, but I guess he's just been busy playing the grand piano on his OCEAN LINER!

Quote from: PeeJayEss on August 15, 2013, 04:29:26 PM
...but I guess he's just been busy playing the grand piano on his OCEAN LINER!

What a fantastic movie!  (skip to 1:15 for the action)

http://www.youtube.com/v/0lBnr9RyISU

Quote from: Cheshire Cat on August 15, 2013, 03:55:50 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on August 15, 2013, 03:45:05 PM

Quote from: vicupstate on August 15, 2013, 10:32:06 AM
I totally agree that revamping the Landing area makes more sense, and should come first.  But the Inner Harbor is pretty big and if overlaided onto the Northbank, would cover the Landing footprint and the Shipyards as well.   Like Baltimore, it would happen in phases as demand warranted.

I overlayed the two in a 2009 article about the Inner Harbor.  We're more spread out than most can imagine. Think of everything the Inner Harbor has and imagine squeezing it in between the Acosta Bridge and the Hyatt Hotel.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/600014980_faZZ2-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/600015022_6PUdL-M.jpg)

Images of Inner Harbor: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-jul-elements-of-urbanism-baltimore

Thanks for the overlay's Ennis.  This certainly helps to put the project into a better perspective.

Now you can see why I don't get as excited about the Shipyards as most do, or believe that it has the ability to significantly  transform downtown.  It's nearly a mile away from the core of the Northbank.  In most cities, it would be in a completely different neighborhood.

Ennis.  Is that mile distance one you are measuring if the Main Street bridge were used?  How far is the property from the stadium?

Quote from: thelakelander on August 15, 2013, 05:03:51 PM

Quote from: Cheshire Cat on August 15, 2013, 03:55:50 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on August 15, 2013, 03:45:05 PM

Quote from: vicupstate on August 15, 2013, 10:32:06 AM
I totally agree that revamping the Landing area makes more sense, and should come first.  But the Inner Harbor is pretty big and if overlaided onto the Northbank, would cover the Landing footprint and the Shipyards as well.   Like Baltimore, it would happen in phases as demand warranted.

I overlayed the two in a 2009 article about the Inner Harbor.  We're more spread out than most can imagine. Think of everything the Inner Harbor has and imagine squeezing it in between the Acosta Bridge and the Hyatt Hotel.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/600014980_faZZ2-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/600015022_6PUdL-M.jpg)

Images of Inner Harbor: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-jul-elements-of-urbanism-baltimore

Thanks for the overlay's Ennis.  This certainly helps to put the project into a better perspective.

Now you can see why I don't get as excited about the Shipyards as most do, or believe that it has the ability to significantly  transform downtown.  It's nearly a mile away from the core of the Northbank.  In most cities, it would be in a completely different neighborhood.

To me the overlay shows the potential of the Shipyards.  Much of the I.H. overlay is over the river, and a good it of it is the CSX building, which obviously isn't going anywhere.  Take that combined area and stretch it eastward and you cover all or most of the Shipyards parcel.  In other words, make the Landing the western-most 'anchor' of the Jax version of the Inner Harbor ,and move eastward from  there.

Quote from: Cheshire Cat on August 15, 2013, 05:08:25 PM
Ennis.  Is that mile distance one you are measuring if the Main Street bridge were used?  How far is the property from the stadium?

it is between 1.25 and 1.5 miles from the Main St Bridge to the stadium...the closest part of the Shipyards to the core is over 1/2 mile from the bridge and extends to within about a 1/2 mile of the stadium

Anything but compact.  It will take decades of infill to make such a distance remotely vibrant......

That's when we get to the point that infill becomes viable market rate.

What is the distance from the Hyatt to the CSX building?  Pedestrians walk that trek and more all the time now, even with nothing really there except the Landing, which is old and tired and partially vacant.   

While attending a convention in Baltimore, my party walked from our hotel just west of the overlay shown, all the way to almost Little Italy.  Strolled, had dinner, strolled ,had dessert, strolled back. 

Certainly it would take decades to complete, but first complete the Riverwalk to Metro Park, and then start with the City Hall Annex and/or the courthouse site, and then progress in an eastern direction from there.

I visited the  Inner Harbor in the 90's and it wasn't even half the area shown in the overlay then.  I saw it in the mid 2000's and it covered the entire overlay you see in this thread.

It's 0.62 miles from the Acosta Bridge to the Hyatt.  It's a half mile from Haborplace to Little Italy.

The crazy thing is we've invested in nearly the same stuff as Baltimore did over a similar 30 year period.  Their investments were purposely clustered together and our investments appear as if someone kicked an ant hill.  Their compact placement of complementing attractions created synergy which attracted additional development.  Looking at us, we could set off a similar chain reaction by taking a small piece of the urban waterfront, improving existing amenities and infilling it with additional amenities.  However, that option would be better served focusing between CSX and the Hyatt area as a higher priority.

Quote from: thelakelander on August 16, 2013, 09:35:42 AM
It's 0.62 miles from the Acosta Bridge to the Hyatt.  It's a half mile from Haborplace to Little Italy.

The crazy thing is we've invested in nearly the same stuff as Baltimore did over a similar 30 year period.  Their investments were purposely clustered together and our investments appear as if someone kicked an ant hill.  Their compact placement of complementing attractions created synergy which attracted additional development.  Looking at us, we could set off a similar chain reaction by taking a small piece of the urban waterfront, improving existing amenities and infilling it with additional amenities.  However, that option would be better served focusing between CSX and the Hyatt area as a higher priority.

That's analyzing it in a vacuum though. Baltimore didn't run around demolishing the rest of their city while working on the harbor, lol. It doesn't really matter what gimmick we built here, there just aren't any significant number of people to speak of downtown, where we've demolished the reasons they'd be there in the first place, and then we ran off the few remaining large employers with asinine parking policies. Except for EverBank, who got so many concessions it got to where it would almost have cost them money not to move. Which apparently is what it takes to get a tenant downtown these days.

The land area down there doesn't matter as much as the fact that there's just nothing there, and by demolishing 2/3's of it, they've made it economically unfeasible for small businesses to locate there. You have to build a new building now, you can't just rent. Even if you do build a new building, that's expensive, and accordingly so will be the rent. It basically already reached critical mass and imploded back in the 1990s. Absent drastic policy changes and public investment it's not changing anytime soon, the shipyards aren't really going to affect it one way or the other.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on August 16, 2013, 09:56:27 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on August 16, 2013, 09:35:42 AM
It's 0.62 miles from the Acosta Bridge to the Hyatt.  It's a half mile from Haborplace to Little Italy.

The crazy thing is we've invested in nearly the same stuff as Baltimore did over a similar 30 year period.  Their investments were purposely clustered together and our investments appear as if someone kicked an ant hill.  Their compact placement of complementing attractions created synergy which attracted additional development.  Looking at us, we could set off a similar chain reaction by taking a small piece of the urban waterfront, improving existing amenities and infilling it with additional amenities.  However, that option would be better served focusing between CSX and the Hyatt area as a higher priority.

That's analyzing it in a vacuum though. Baltimore didn't run around demolishing the rest of their city while working on the harbor, lol. It doesn't really matter what gimmick we built here, there just aren't any significant number of people to speak of downtown, where we've demolished the reasons they'd be there in the first place, and then we ran off the few remaining large employers with asinine parking policies. Except for EverBank, who got so many concessions it got to where it would almost have cost them money not to move. Which apparently is what it takes to get a tenant downtown these days.

The land area down there doesn't matter as much as the fact that there's just nothing there, and by demolishing 2/3's of it, they've made it economically unfeasible for small businesses to locate there. You have to build a new building now, you can't just rent. Even if you do build a new building, that's expensive, and accordingly so will be the rent. It basically already reached critical mass and imploded back in the 1990s. Absent drastic policy changes and public investment it's not changing anytime soon, the shipyards aren't really going to affect it one way or the other.

I can't disagree with a word you have written.  That is a good description of why the land is, and probably will be vacant for some time.  On the other hand, Charlotte leveled just about everything in it's DT core too, yet it has made a comeback, even wiithout waterfront property.  All Jax needs is a couple of big banks with deep pockets and a light rail line.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on August 16, 2013, 09:56:27 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on August 16, 2013, 09:35:42 AM
It's 0.62 miles from the Acosta Bridge to the Hyatt.  It's a half mile from Haborplace to Little Italy.

The crazy thing is we've invested in nearly the same stuff as Baltimore did over a similar 30 year period.  Their investments were purposely clustered together and our investments appear as if someone kicked an ant hill.  Their compact placement of complementing attractions created synergy which attracted additional development.  Looking at us, we could set off a similar chain reaction by taking a small piece of the urban waterfront, improving existing amenities and infilling it with additional amenities.  However, that option would be better served focusing between CSX and the Hyatt area as a higher priority.

That's analyzing it in a vacuum though. Baltimore didn't run around demolishing the rest of their city while working on the harbor, lol.

It doesn't really matter what gimmick we built here, there just aren't any significant number of people to speak of downtown, where we've demolished the reasons they'd be there in the first place, and then we ran off the few remaining large employers with asinine parking policies. Except for EverBank, who got so many concessions it got to where it would almost have cost them money not to move. Which apparently is what it takes to get a tenant downtown these days.

The land area down there doesn't matter as much as the fact that there's just nothing there, and by demolishing 2/3's of it, they've made it economically unfeasible for small businesses to locate there. You have to build a new building now, you can't just rent. Even if you do build a new building, that's expensive, and accordingly so will be the rent. It basically already reached critical mass and imploded back in the 1990s. Absent drastic policy changes and public investment it's not changing anytime soon, the shipyards aren't really going to affect it one way or the other.

(http://www.healthyharborbaltimore.org/uploads/image/state-of-the-harbor/history-of-harbor/historical_harbor.jpg)

(http://darkroom.baltimoresun.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/BS-Baltimore-Harbor-View-.jpg)

You're kind of doing what you're accusing me of.  You're obviously assuming Baltimore didn't run around demolishing areas of town while working on the harbor.  In actuality, there are some areas in close proximity of the harbor and harbor itself that were subject to lots of urban renewal.  Jax isn't close to being alone when it comes to late 20th century demolition, although many of us believe we are.

Looking at the early 20th century Baltimore shots, nearly every building surrounding the Inner Harbor no longer exists today.  The Inner Harbor succeeds, not because of the rest of the city's density, but the synergy of compact, complementing uses fueling an environment that attracts a ton of outsiders to spend money there.  Next time, you're in Baltimore, try walking a few blocks NW of the Inner Harbor and into the heart of downtown or NE near Johns Hopkins or where Jonestown used to be.  It's a completely different environment.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/592132774_q8mAA-M.jpg)

However, you're basically describing why the Shipyards should be less of a focus.  There's one area of downtown where building density has actually increased in the last few decades and that's the Northbank waterfront between the Acosta and Hyatt.  It's were most people who visit downtown go now. If we have any hope in adding life back within a compact area (in the short term), it's that spot because you're not starting from scratch.  There are excellent opportunities with the linear green space between CSX and the Landing, the Landing, Omni, Performing Arts Center, Suntrust Tower and Wells Fargo Center.  You really don't need major infill in this area to enhance it.  It can easily be improved by enhancing connectivity and improving the public realm spaces between the existing attractions themselves.

Also, this isn't a gimmick as much as it's common sense and a proven method to increasing pedestrian scale walkability and interaction, which eventually equals vibrancy within a compact setting.

Speaking of large undeveloped urban waterfront sites, we're not the only one's with something like the Shipyards.  Baltimore has the Honeywell site.  It started off as the Baltimore Chrome Works Facility was constructed in the mid-nineteenth century near Fells Point. Chromium ore was processed to produce chromium chemicals until 1985.

Allied Chemicals, later AlliedSignal, now Honeywell, acquired the plant in 1954. Environmental investigations conducted at the site during the 1980's established that large quantities of chromium, calculated to be approximately 62 pounds per day, were migrating from the site, with most of the chromium being released to the Baltimore harbor.

So far, Honeywell has spent over $100 million in capping the contaminated property. Plans are to eventually redevelop the entire site into a mixed use project.

http://www.mde.state.md.us/assets/document/Allied%20Honeywell%20short.pdf

(http://www.epa.gov/reg3wcmd/ca/md/otherdocs/HoneywellBaltimoreInnerHarbor.jpg)

(http://baltimorechromiumresiduecleanup.com/_resources/images/photos/Before-Remedy_edit.jpg)

(http://watchdogwire.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/maryland/files/2013/08/103-583x286.jpg)

Quote from: thelakelander on August 16, 2013, 01:28:40 PM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on August 16, 2013, 09:56:27 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on August 16, 2013, 09:35:42 AM
It's 0.62 miles from the Acosta Bridge to the Hyatt.  It's a half mile from Haborplace to Little Italy.

The crazy thing is we've invested in nearly the same stuff as Baltimore did over a similar 30 year period.  Their investments were purposely clustered together and our investments appear as if someone kicked an ant hill.  Their compact placement of complementing attractions created synergy which attracted additional development.  Looking at us, we could set off a similar chain reaction by taking a small piece of the urban waterfront, improving existing amenities and infilling it with additional amenities.  However, that option would be better served focusing between CSX and the Hyatt area as a higher priority.

That's analyzing it in a vacuum though. Baltimore didn't run around demolishing the rest of their city while working on the harbor, lol.

It doesn't really matter what gimmick we built here, there just aren't any significant number of people to speak of downtown, where we've demolished the reasons they'd be there in the first place, and then we ran off the few remaining large employers with asinine parking policies. Except for EverBank, who got so many concessions it got to where it would almost have cost them money not to move. Which apparently is what it takes to get a tenant downtown these days.

The land area down there doesn't matter as much as the fact that there's just nothing there, and by demolishing 2/3's of it, they've made it economically unfeasible for small businesses to locate there. You have to build a new building now, you can't just rent. Even if you do build a new building, that's expensive, and accordingly so will be the rent. It basically already reached critical mass and imploded back in the 1990s. Absent drastic policy changes and public investment it's not changing anytime soon, the shipyards aren't really going to affect it one way or the other.

(http://www.healthyharborbaltimore.org/uploads/image/state-of-the-harbor/history-of-harbor/historical_harbor.jpg)

(http://darkroom.baltimoresun.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/BS-Baltimore-Harbor-View-.jpg)

You're kind of doing what you're accusing me of.  You're obviously assuming Baltimore didn't run around demolishing areas of town while working on the harbor.  In actuality, there are some areas in close proximity of the harbor and harbor itself that were subject to lots of urban renewal.  Jax isn't close to being alone when it comes to late 20th century demolition, although many of us believe we are.

Looking at the early 20th century Baltimore shots, nearly every building surrounding the Inner Harbor no longer exists today.  The Inner Harbor succeeds, not because of the rest of the city's density, but the synergy of compact, complementing uses fueling an environment that attracts a ton of outsiders to spend money there.  Next time, you're in Baltimore, try walking a few blocks NW of the Inner Harbor and into the heart of downtown or NE near Johns Hopkins or where Jonestown used to be.  It's a completely different environment.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/592132774_q8mAA-M.jpg)

However, you're basically describing why the Shipyards should be less of a focus.  There's one area of downtown where building density has actually increased in the last few decades and that's the Northbank waterfront between the Acosta and Hyatt.  It's were most people who visit downtown go now. If we have any hope in adding life back within a compact area (in the short term), it's that spot because you're not starting from scratch.  There are excellent opportunities with the linear green space between CSX and the Landing, the Landing, Omni, Performing Arts Center, Suntrust Tower and Wells Fargo Center.  You really don't need major infill in this area to enhance it.  It can easily be improved by enhancing connectivity and improving the public realm spaces between the existing attractions themselves.

Also, this isn't a gimmick as much as it's common sense and a proven method to increasing pedestrian scale walkability and interaction, which eventually equals vibrancy within a compact setting.

Apples and oranges. Baltimore didn't hold a candle to our four decade-long demolition rampage that took out 2/3 of downtown, all of the immediately adjacent urban areas, and still continues today. They're absolutely nothing like one another in that regard. Analysis of what works and what doesn't is fine, and helpful. But this is a false comparison, Baltimore and jacksonville have such different starting points, simply because of what isn't here vs. what was still there when it starting turning around. What worked there won't work here because we simply don't have the assets (mainly building stock) they still had.

I'd challenge you to take a stroll around Baltimore the next time you're up there and actually dig into its history.  It isn't all peaches and cream like you're attempting to paint it.  Nevertheless, demolition away from the riverfront/inner harbor isn't the main driver in the difference between the Inner Harbor and Jax's riverfront.  Go back to the 1970s, and you'll discover the revitalization starting points and investments were pretty similar during that era.  The same applies to cities like San Diego and Portland as well.

We even had building fabric still standing and occupied back in those days (although most of that stock was on the other side of Bay Street). In the past 30 years, those places established a vision and stuck to the plan of incrementally implementing it.  We've done the exact opposite and the result is what we have today.

If we're talking specifically about turning DT Jax around, we're going to have to start small and work with what we have.  Unfortunately, to get to a level of where the Inner Harbor is today, it will probably take use another 30 years, but it is what it is.  If we don't think that works, then we might as well give up because there's no Donald Trump coming to town to magically turn DT Jax into a 24/7 city any time soon.

Quote from: thelakelander on August 17, 2013, 01:50:22 AM
I'd challenge you to take a stroll around Baltimore the next time you're up there and actually dig into its history.  It isn't all peaches and cream like you're attempting to paint it.  Nevertheless, demolition away from the riverfront/inner harbor isn't the main driver in the difference between the Inner Harbor and Jax's riverfront.  Go back to the 1970s, and you'll discover the revitalization starting points and investments were pretty similar during that era.  The same applies to cities like San Diego and Portland as well.

We even had building fabric still standing and occupied back in those days (although most of that stock was on the other side of Bay Street). In the past 30 years, those places established a vision and stuck to the plan of incrementally implementing it.  We've done the exact opposite and the result is what we have today.

If we're talking specifically about turning DT Jax around, we're going to have to start small and work with what we have.  Unfortunately, to get to a level of where the Inner Harbor is today, it will probably take use another 30 years, but it is what it is.  If we don't think that works, then we might as well give up because there's no Donald Trump coming to town to magically turn DT Jax into a 24/7 city any time soon.

Ennis don't kid a kidder, I never said Baltimore was all peaches and cream, in fact I agree that it used to be one giant slum, they had a lot to overcome, and I certainly wasn't arguing that. The distinguishable difference is they didn't demolish virtually their entire urban core like Jacksonville did. The question as a practical matter is how does one come back from that?

You have this fundamental structural problem now, where you just don't have sufficient building stock there anymore to have organic growth. New construction is economically unviable in this scenario because it's expensive and accordingly so will be the rents. Nobody's going to pay $4k/mo for zero foot traffic, they just go elsewhere. And the developers know that, so it just sits.

I disagree with the Jacksonville mindset that, into the middle of this kind of fundamental structural problem, we're going to throw some condo project or a convention center up and this will revitalize the area. The problem is much larger than that, and these magic-bullet projects won't change anything, and they can make it worse. At some point if the city really wants downtown back then it's going to have to start offering construction and rent subsidies, eliminate paid parking, quit trying to fix the problem by buying up the few remaining buildings and putting city offices in them, and a laundry list of other things we've hashed out repeatedly over the years, with the basic goal being to lower the cost of being down there to reflect the market reality.

You and I agree that growth has to be organic, the issue is they've removed all of the soil where anything could grow, and before you can expect anything to happen you have to put it back. This isn't done with magic-bullet projects, downtowns thrive on small and medium size commercial, especially retail, and there is very little of that type of space left in ours, and what little is there is exorbitantly expensive for no logical reason. At some point we just have to get the checkbook out and encourage construction and low rents. Something this city uniquely has zero political appetite for. So it just sits.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on August 17, 2013, 09:22:32 AM
Ennis don't kid a kidder, I never said Baltimore was all peaches and cream, in fact I agree that it used to be one giant slum, they had a lot to overcome, and I certainly wasn't arguing that. The distinguishable difference is they didn't demolish virtually their entire urban core like Jacksonville did.

I'm trying to be serious.  I do this stuff for a living.  It seems you're basing your opinion on the aftermath of two different results following 40 years of revitalization tactics. I'm trying to put this in it's proper perspective. While some major areas of DT Jax are a smoldering heap of building foundations, when both of these places started (yes, we started revitalization efforts decades ago) that was not so.  Specifically, the inner harbor is about as big of an urban renewal project as any during the second half of the 20th century.  If our paths prove anything, it's that what we've been doing for the last 40 years is a prime example for other communities of what not to do.

QuoteThe question as a practical matter is how does one come back from that?

This is the easy question that we continue to make difficult, resulting in our forty years of failure, becoming 50.  You don't start by spending hundreds of millions on isolated sites with limited connectivity and ability to stimulate your heart.  In the short term, you preserve, improve, and add to what little you already have while making it easier for the private sector to operate.

QuoteYou have this fundamental structural problem now, where you just don't have sufficient building stock there anymore to have organic growth. New construction is economically unviable in this scenario because it's expensive and accordingly so will be the rents. Nobody's going to pay $4k/mo for zero foot traffic, they just go elsewhere. And the developers know that, so it just sits.

How much building stock to you need to focus on the heart of the Northbank?  We have more than enough to get started within a limited compact area.  Several cities with less building stock than us have already proven this.

QuoteI disagree with the Jacksonville mindset that, into the middle of this kind of fundamental structural problem, we're going to throw some condo project or a convention center up and this will revitalize the area. The problem is much larger than that, and these magic-bullet projects won't change anything, and they can make it worse.

I agree with you.  That's what we've been doing for the last 40 years and it hasn't worked.

QuoteAt some point if the city really wants downtown back then it's going to have to start offering construction and rent subsidies, eliminate paid parking, quit trying to fix the problem by buying up the few remaining buildings and putting city offices in them, and a laundry list of other things we've hashed out repeatedly over the years, with the basic goal being to lower the cost of being down there to reflect the market reality.

For the most part, I agree with this statement.  You do have to level the playing field and fill in the financing gaps.  That's why some places like Detroit and Cincinnati actually are paying people to live in certain areas of their urban cores....and it's working for them.

QuoteYou and I agree that growth has to be organic, the issue is they've removed all of the soil where anything could grow, and before you can expect anything to happen you have to put it back. This isn't done with magic-bullet projects, downtowns thrive on small and medium size commercial, and there is virtually none of that type of space left in ours. At some point we just have to get the checkbook out and encourage construction and low rents. Something this city uniquely has zero political appetite for. So it just sits.

Once people realize that Jax is a small second tier community and stop lusting over the big-one-trick pony project dreams, we'll discover revitalization is much easier than we've made it to be.

The following is just my layman opinion.

Baltimore has a checked past.  Those that lived in Metro DC area thought of Baltimore as the slums of slums.  The first time I went to the Annapolis Boat Show in 1983 I made the mistake of staying in Baltimore.  I only made that mistake once.  By the time I moved to Maryland in the 90's , things were different.  I had friends that lived in Fells Point and later bought one of the row houses by the stadiums.  The ones that were sold for a dollar in 1978.  The city did move the addicts out before the sale but made no guarantees they would not move back. By the end of the 90's, there were selling for $300 plus a SF. A few years ago, we got to spend most of the Summer and Fall up in Baltimore, based in Fells Point. We walked to the grocery store, we walked to the West Marine (we were on our boat) and we walked to places like Little Italy and the Inner Harbor.  We drove around a lot too and there are lots of neighborhoods that have lots of historic looking buildings stock left.  Some are in use, many are not.  Some of the outer ones look a lot like Springfield, but without the big, empty spaces.

I find it hard to compare Jacksonville to Baltimore for several reasons.  To begin with, the city was poor for decades.  It did not have the funding to demolish whole neighborhoods and so they remain.  A few smart leaders seemed to realize that they had better do it right with what little they did have and so they did not demolish those flea invested row houses that were next to nothing in 1978, they basically took them and gave the problem to someone else. Not to save them, but because it was cheaper to keep them.

There is a common thread with historic buildings. If the owners through the years were wealthy, the buildings got well maintained and updated through the years.  The facades were changed and made to look more modern.  Those buildings with poorer owners that were not well maintained still have the original historic facades. I think cities are pretty much the same way.  Baltimore was poor and so things remain.  When the Inner Harbor was being developed, of course some buildings had to go.  It is just the way it has to be.  Some old must go to allow for the new.  Otherwise, no new Wright or Klutho could ever make their mark on a city.  I think it is not the demolition of some buildings, it is the extent that is the problem.

Jacksonville, I think, found itself with more funding than Baltimore had.  I also think that Jacksonville is about as corrupt as a city can get. Add to that the issues brought in by Consolidation and we have a recipe for developer driven greed on the part of the leadership.  Things get demolished in the Urban core perhaps not to allow for easier development of those land areas but to insure the values of the land in the suburbs.  That downtown buildings go away to insure there is nothing to compete with the suburban sprawl the developers are getting rich from.  This is not to say places like Baltimore are not corrupt, but to simply try to state that once a path is started down, greed keeps the city on that path.

It will take someone like Khan to believe that a vibrant city center is worth while.  Even then, I can see the Shipyards being more important to him that the actual downtown as it builds towards his primary area of concern, the stadiums. We have to hope that the greed follows his money if we want the kind of urban core we say we do.

Don't compare cities.  Baltimore is a significantly larger city than Jacksonville has ever been.  I think consolidation screws with our minds.  We think we're in the same size range as the Atlantas, Miamis, etc. but in reality we're the scale of Dayton, OH that's annexed its core county. Instead, you compare redevelopment strategies of the Inner Harbor and Jacksonville's waterfront over a common time period. 

One strategy was built around the idea of clustering complementing uses together within a compact pedestrian scale setting and the other was not.  This alone, will result in significant differences over a 40 year period regardless of whether you're dealing with a Baltimore, Jacksonville, Houston, Delray Beach or an El Paso.

Kahn's total net worth is $2.5 billion. We could pour every penny he has into the current machine and end up with grass fields and building foundations.

Kahn didn't make his money being a fool.  I wouldn't expect him to light his fortune on fire trying to turn around downtown single handedly.  Make no doubt about it, whatever development he puts his money in, it's an investment.

Interesting piece in today's Daily Record.

http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=540624  (click link for full story)

Quote

Thursday, September 26, 10:14 AM EDT

by Mark Basch, Contributing Writer
Looking out the window of The River Club Downtown Wednesday, Jacksonville Jaguars President Mark Lamping had a clear view of EverBank Field and the riverfront properties leading up to the team's stadium.

During a luncheon speech to the Jacksonville Bankruptcy Bar Association, Lamping explained why Jaguars owner Shad Khan is interested in development of the vacant, blighted-looking Shipyards property.

"We think the Shipyards are really the front door to the sports complex," he said.

"We think having that developed will strengthen the state of the Jaguars."

Make no mistake – Lamping knows the biggest problem attracting fans to Jaguars games right now is the team's poor performance on the field.

"Winning can mask a lot of problems," he said.

"If there are 10 things to do, the first five are to put a better team on the field. But in some respects, it's not the only thing," he said.

Lamping outlined some of the other steps the team is taking to attract more fans, including Khan's involvement in economic development in Jacksonville.

Khan told the Daily Record in June that he was interested in the Shipyards. Lamping said Khan is hoping to attract other parties for development projects at the site.

"Almost view us as the developer of last resort," Lamping said but he added, "We're not going to sit another five or 10 years."

Khan has demonstrated his commitment to Jacksonville in other ways in recent months, including financing development of the Laura Street Trio and the old Barnett Bank Building Downtown. He also recently met with Gov. Rick Scott to discuss economic development in Jacksonville.

"We know the stronger Downtown is, the stronger the Jaguars will be," Lamping said

Jacksonville is very fortunate to have community-minded men in charge of its football team. People who see the opportunity to help the city realize its potential and who take responsibility for improving the franchise and its revenue streams. When you compare the actions of Khan and Lamping to those of team officials who severed relationships with their cities, the distinction could not be more obvious. The way these men invest in the city also underscores why it's in every Jaxson's interest to root for the team to succeed, regardless of who his or her favorite team might be, and not to join the flippant commentary about how "embarrassing" a losing team is.

Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on September 26, 2013, 05:13:36 PM
Jacksonville is very fortunate to have community-minded men in charge of its football team. People who see the opportunity to help the city realize its potential and who take responsibility for improving the franchise and its revenue streams. When you compare the actions of Khan and Lamping to those of team officials who severed relationships with their cities, the distinction could not be more obvious. The way these men invest in the city also underscores why it's in every Jaxson's interest to root for the team to succeed, regardless of who his or her favorite team might be, and not to join the flippant commentary about how "embarrassing" a losing team is.

Agreed, but I think we would be remiss not to mention the millions upon millions of dollars the Weaver's poured into various community programs and efforts.  They did much for Jacksonville.  :)

Yes, I definitely do not mean to take anything away from the Weavers in saying that.

Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on September 26, 2013, 05:57:27 PM
Yes, I definitely do not mean to take anything away from the Weavers in saying that.

I didn't think you did.  :)  I know Dolores recently gave over 50 million for use by local charities.  That is outstanding.  I  think Khan is bringing something different to Jacksonville's table with his focus which will help us in ways that we have yet to imagine.  I am looking forward to good things.

Apparently Khan is sick of Jax's complacency with the Shipyards.

www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=541085

Quote from: I-10east on November 19, 2013, 02:02:12 PM
Apparently Khan is sick of Jax's complacency with the Shipyards.

www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=541085

It's rare that you get a visionary with lots of money - we're fortunate to have both in Khan!

I guess he will take the shipyards with him when the team moves.  ::) LOL But you know whats funny, everything Khan has done in his short tenure was the whole reason Jacksonville wanted a team.. exposure and economic develpment. And unfortnately under Weaver's watch (and the city's do nothing but what everything attitude), it never happened. Having an NFL team was supposed to help grow the city, and it never happened. But thank God Khan is a visionary and has the money and the guts to take this stuff on.

Love this quote from the article.

QuoteAs for possible plans, Lamping said there has been nothing formal, but it "has to be mixed-use" and "has to be active 365 days a year, not just event days."

I don't blame him. I'd be upset with this city's ineptitude too if I was in his position.

We are lucky to have him. Better yet he has the money to back things up. I just blows my mind we have so much vacant property along our riverfront in downtown.

Quote from: fsujax on November 19, 2013, 04:09:40 PM
We are lucky to have him. Better yet he has the money to back things up. I just blows my mind we have so much vacant property along our riverfront in downtown.

Yeah but.....

Have you actually been INSIDE the courthouse?  It's really, really nice. 

Quote from: coredumped on November 19, 2013, 03:42:28 PM

Quote from: I-10east on November 19, 2013, 02:02:12 PM
Apparently Khan is sick of Jax's complacency with the Shipyards.

www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=541085

It's rare that you get a visionary with lots of money - we're fortunate to have both in Khan!

wonder how much of his own money Khan plans to pay the City to get the Shipyards land...I've heard not very much

Quote from: duvaldude08 on November 19, 2013, 03:49:36 PM
And unfortnately under Weaver's watch (and the city's do nothing but what everything attitude), it never happened.

I don't wanna argue, because I agree with damn-near everything that you say, but I'll never understand the whole 'Khan vs Weaver' argument for the life of me; I'm VERY glad that we have/had the privilege of having BOTH of being Jag owners. Talk about a best case scenario.

It's funny that you mentioned Weaver, because recently that family was named the 20th biggest givers (most philanthropic) by Forbes magazine; Where do you think they're spending all of that money at?

www.forbes.com/pictures/ekeg45efkh/20-j-wayne-delores-barr-weaver/ 

Weaver didn't have anything to do with the COJ/Spence fallout (one building actually broke ground) over the first Shipyards project or LandMar going belly up with the second.

Quote from: I-10east on November 19, 2013, 11:02:17 PM

Quote from: duvaldude08 on November 19, 2013, 03:49:36 PM
And unfortunately under Weaver's watch (and the city's do nothing but what everything attitude), it never happened.

I don't wanna argue, because I agree with damn-near everything that you say, but I'll never understand the whole 'Khan vs Weaver' argument for the life of me; I'm VERY glad that we have/had the privilege of having BOTH of being Jag owners. Talk about a best case scenario.

It's funny that you mentioned Weaver, because recently that family was named the 20th biggest givers (most philanthropic) by Forbes magazine; Where do you think they're spending all of that money at?

www.forbes.com/pictures/ekeg45efkh/20-j-wayne-delores-barr-weaver/

Oh lord I forgot you have a man crush on Weaver. LMAO It wasn't a shot at weaver. I never said he didn't do anything for the city and it was nothing against him personally. I was speaking of leaveraging the opportunities of have an NFL team to promote and grow the city. I'm talking about the marketing and economic development piece of it. Weaver didn't do a very good job at that and theres no arguing about it, just wasn't something he was good at. Doesn't mean he was a bad person.  He was content with the Franchise being average and just making it, where as Khan shots for the stars. That's all I'm saying bro. Chill out, seriously. You have panic attacks over nothing.

^^^I'm chill, I was trying to be very cordial. I just don't understand the whole "Weaver content on being average" stuff that you continue to beat a dead horse on for years. Maybe economic development isn't everyone's deal. Look at alot of these owners in the NFL; Hell, you'll be lucky to have a .500 team, forget about DT development. Some will argue that goodwill philanthropy is more valuable than infrastructure projects which may or may not be successful.

You act like we didn't have good winning seasons with Weaver or something. That's the problem with alot of people today, like the now generation that bites the hand that feeds them. It's like saying that a covered version of a song should have been the original version, and the original version sucks; Well, if there wasn't an original, there would be no cover version. I get it, you aren't wild about Weaver. Why continue to bring him up whenever Khan is mentioned? No one is perfect, we all have our flaws. It seems like you will never let that ship sail. The guy only brought NFL football to Jax, nevermind that though.... I REALLY can't wait for your next 'freshly made' "I'm glad that we have Khan now, Weaver didn't do diddly" post within a couple of months...

 

Quote from: tufsu1 on November 19, 2013, 10:28:02 PM

Quote from: coredumped on November 19, 2013, 03:42:28 PM

Quote from: I-10east on November 19, 2013, 02:02:12 PM
Apparently Khan is sick of Jax's complacency with the Shipyards.

www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=541085

It's rare that you get a visionary with lots of money - we're fortunate to have both in Khan!

wonder how much of his own money Khan plans to pay the City to get the Shipyards land...I've heard not very much

You don't get to be a billionaire by throwing money around.  It sounds like he wants to be the developer of last resort.

They could start by selling parts to people like Intuition.

^+1 Couldn't agree more. We need another round over here!

I hope if Mr. Khan does venture into the development game here it is very profitable for him.

DIA Board meeting 5 hours out. Support the USS Charles F. Adams too.

Quote from: I-10east on November 20, 2013, 03:20:44 AM
^^^I'm chill, I was trying to be very cordial. I just don't understand the whole "Weaver content on being average" stuff that you continue to beat a dead horse on for years. Maybe economic development isn't everyone's deal. Look at alot of these owners in the NFL; Hell, you'll be lucky to have a .500 team, forget about DT development. Some will argue that goodwill philanthropy is more valuable than infrastructure projects which may or may not be successful.

You act like we didn't have good winning seasons with Weaver or something. That's the problem with alot of people today, like the now generation that bites the hand that feeds them. It's like saying that a covered version of a song should have been the original version, and the original version sucks; Well, if there wasn't an original, there would be no cover version. I get it, you aren't wild about Weaver. Why continue to bring him up whenever Khan is mentioned? No one is perfect, we all have our flaws. It seems like you will never let that ship sail. The guy only brought NFL football to Jax, nevermind that though.... I REALLY can't wait for your next 'freshly made' "I'm glad that we have Khan now, Weaver didn't do diddly" post within a couple of months...

WEll it doesnt matter really. Im entitled to my opinon, just as well as you are yours. Im sorry you dont agree with me. You'll get over it.

Quote from: duvaldude08 on November 20, 2013, 01:00:44 AM
I was speaking of leaveraging the opportunities of have an NFL team to promote and grow the city. I'm talking about the marketing and economic development piece of it. Weaver didn't do a very good job at that and theres no arguing about it, just wasn't something he was good at.

Why is it an NFL owner's job to promote and grow the city?  Frankly, I don't know of any owner that has taken that on as an initiative outside of Khan.  An owner's job is to put the pieces in place to win football games.

Quote from: MEGATRON on November 20, 2013, 02:42:13 PM

Quote from: duvaldude08 on November 20, 2013, 01:00:44 AM
I was speaking of leaveraging the opportunities of have an NFL team to promote and grow the city. I'm talking about the marketing and economic development piece of it. Weaver didn't do a very good job at that and theres no arguing about it, just wasn't something he was good at.

Why is it an NFL owner's job to promote and grow the city?  Frankly, I don't know of any owner that has taken that on as an initiative outside of Khan.  An owner's job is to put the pieces in place to win football games.

I would disagree that winning games is the limit of the the local involvement.  The NFL league wide bills itself as a promotional engine  for the localities. A new owner would be well aware of the profile and expectations that come along with the gig.

Khan's stated impetuous for the promoting the city is that local growth in the population and local spending money helps the profitability of the team.

Quote from: MEGATRON on November 20, 2013, 02:42:13 PM

Quote from: duvaldude08 on November 20, 2013, 01:00:44 AM
I was speaking of leaveraging the opportunities of have an NFL team to promote and grow the city. I'm talking about the marketing and economic development piece of it. Weaver didn't do a very good job at that and theres no arguing about it, just wasn't something he was good at.

Why is it an NFL owner's job to promote and grow the city?  Frankly, I don't know of any owner that has taken that on as an initiative outside of Khan.  An owner's job is to put the pieces in place to win football games.

Frankly, it's smart business. A franchise located in a well promoted, vibrant, growing city has no cap on its value.

Quote from: KenFSU on November 20, 2013, 03:02:27 PM

Quote from: MEGATRON on November 20, 2013, 02:42:13 PM

Quote from: duvaldude08 on November 20, 2013, 01:00:44 AM
I was speaking of leaveraging the opportunities of have an NFL team to promote and grow the city. I'm talking about the marketing and economic development piece of it. Weaver didn't do a very good job at that and theres no arguing about it, just wasn't something he was good at.

Why is it an NFL owner's job to promote and grow the city?  Frankly, I don't know of any owner that has taken that on as an initiative outside of Khan.  An owner's job is to put the pieces in place to win football games.

Frankly, it's smart business. A franchise located in a well promoted, vibrant, growing city has no cap on its value.

Perhaps smart business, but its not an obligation.  I'd love to see some examples of municipal marketing campaigns championed by other NFL owners. Does Jerry Jones pimp Dallas?  Do the Rooneys pimp Pittsburgh?  Snyder pimp Washington?

I'd say an owners job is to develop the brand and value of the team, which can be done by winning games. That could also be accomplished in different ways, which khan is also exploring.

There are those owners who don't even live in the cities in which their teams play.  The owner of the 49ers is an Ohio guy (only a few years older than me!) with no ties/relation to San Francisco except that he inherited the team from his rich uncle (DeBartolo family).  Did that have any influence on their lost vote to receive funding to rebuild in SF/decision to move to San Jose?  No telling.

I do think it's an unwritten duty of anyone in financial and political wherewithal to lead in the best way they see fit.  The Weavers have certainly done their part, though they were more behind the scenes.  Jacksonville hasn't had a front and center "voice of the city" or eccentric representative of the city to the outside world in a really long time.  Not sure if Khan's "there" yet, but he's certainly on track to be the person everyone thinks of when they think of Jacksonville.  I hope he uses that exposure and "fame" to bring awareness to and to promote the city with the goal of enriching the city, and therefore his team.

Jags = value-add NFL team, so he probably didn't buy the team as a "core" investment with little value to add and best practices and revenue sources in place to merely maintain and grow.  He's looking for ways to bring that relatively low team value up in a meaningfully short time frame.  Winning can drive ticket sales more than anything else, but so can integrating the culture of Jacksonville with the culture of the team so that everyday people feel like they're a part of the team.

Quote from: duvaldude08 on November 20, 2013, 01:00:44 AM
I was speaking of leaveraging the opportunities of have an NFL team to promote and grow the city. I'm talking about the marketing and economic development piece of it. Weaver didn't do a very good job at that and theres no arguing about it, just wasn't something he was good at. Doesn't mean he was a bad person.  He was content with the Franchise being average and just making it, where as Khan shots for the stars.

I completely disagree with this as well. I'm delighted that Khan is the owner and excited about him taking the next steps, but he took his cue from the Weavers and none of it was possible without them. It's a natural and necessary progression. Also, I'm pretty certain they weren't content with an average franchise either, which is why they attempted the things they did and also found the best owner to sell to. Don't underestimate what their contributions were or the influence Mr. Weaver had in handing the reigns over to Khan. In terms of giving, it will take a long time for Khan to reach the level of impact that they've had in the community, both in donated dollars and in projects like the John Gorrie. Khan is off to a great start though!

QuoteYou'll get over it.

Nice!

Weavers donations are through the roof in Jax, charities, helping people who need a leg up, their generosity is like none other. Khan has a long way to go in that regard, or maybe he won't. If he decides to leave his mark in buildings and businesses downtown, so be it. Glad he is willing to make an investment in Jacksonville.

All I want is a Ferris Wheel to rival the one they have in Atlanta, would look awesome at night against the skyline!

Quote from: duvaldude08 on June 14, 2013, 01:49:00 PM

Quote

Jacksonville Jaguars owner Shad Khan said Thursday he is interested in developing the vacant Shipyards property, which is near EverBank Field and is the most visible open space along the St. Johns River on Downtown's Northbank.

"I think it can be greatly enhanced" to bring economic vibrancy to Downtown, he said.

Khan said his organization is talking with the City, which owns the 40-acre property. He did not specify the details of those talks.

Asked if he had ideas for the property, he said, "lots of ideas. Hundreds of ideas."

"It has to be a destination," he said. "It's Downtown 101."

Khan said people come Downtown to work and then leave. He wants to change that.

Khan spoke with reporters Thursday after he accepted the 15th Annual Thompson S. Baker "Solid as a Rock" Award at the Junior Achievement of North Florida Hall of Fame event at EverBank Field.

Khan did not talk about his interest in the Shipyards in his remarks when he received the award.

In speaking with reporters, he didn't delve into details about the property or any plans, but said the property is "something we can really make a difference" in.

"That is the face," he said, calling it a "very, very high-profile" property.

He declined to talk further about the talks with the City, saying the conversations are pending.

David DeCamp, director of communications for Mayor Alvin Brown, acknowledged Khan's interest.

"Shad Khan has expressed interest in developing the Shipyards property. The discussion was preliminary," DeCamp said.

"Any disposition of City-owned land will follow the City of Jacksonville disposition process. We are very focused on activating the resident and fan experience on our waterfront," he said.

"The Jaguars are an important part of the city's economy and brand, and we look forward to hearing more about this concept as their plans develop," DeCamp said.

The Shipyards property is vacant land stretching from The Plaza at Berkman, which is near the old county courthouse property, to Metropolitan Park and the sports complex.

Late Thursday, Khan issued a statement about his interest in the Shipyards:

"I've said all along, Jacksonville has great potential. Developing the north bank of the riverfront would go a long way toward achieving our potential. The shipyards are the front door to our home, EverBank Field, as well as the entire Sports Complex," said the statement.

"A new life for the Shipyards would be good news for the Jaguars, EverBank Field, the Sports Complex and all of Downtown Jacksonville."

Several developers unsuccessfully attempted residential, office and retail projects on the site since it closed as a working shipyard. The City ended up owning the property after failed attempts by developers.

The Jacksonville Civic Council Northbank Redevelopment Task Force's February 2011 report referred to the Shipyards property as a potential "magnificent mixed-use urban fabric extending from the central business district, along the river, to the sports complex."

Khan has made inroads into Downtown investment already. In April, his Stache Investments Corp. financed the acquisition by a private group of the Laura Street Trio and the old Barnett Bank Building Downtown.

He said that deal was one of many investments and initiatives he supports in the community, including his pledge to meet with selected creators in the One Spark festival and possibly invest.

"I think for me, it's really about committing to a community," Khan said.

Khan said he supports growth in the community, including investments in local business, but prefers to do some of it quietly.

"There are many touch points to make a difference," he said.

Khan, president and owner of Flex-N-Gate Corp., bought the Jaguars in January 2012. He paid $770 million to buy the franchise from Wayne and Delores Barr Weaver and their ownership group.

Khan said at the Junior Achievement event there would be announcements in the next week or two about initiatives regarding the Jaguars that had national and international impacts.

Regarding Tim Tebow, who signed this week with the New England Patriots, Khan said he was happy for him.

"I am delighted for Tim. He's a great player and it's a great situation," he said.

Tebow is the hometown quarterback who played at Nease High School, the University of Florida, the Denver Broncos and then the New York Jets, which released him in April.

Vocal Tebow fans wanted the Jaguars to sign him, but Jaguars General Manager Dave Caldwell has said he "can't imagine a scenario" where Tebow would be a Jacksonville Jaguar

It's Downtown 101? Reply 101!
Did everyone see the TU 11/25/13 Full page on kayaking Destinations for the region?

DOWNTOWN JACKSONVILLE was number two and the launch access is in ARLINGTON. What a joke.
It's a good thing that we are wrapping up our new CRA/DIA in the USA for Downtown Jacksonville.

The DIA gave a resolution of support at their 11/20/13 Board meeting for the USS Charles F. Adams at the Shipyards. A positive project for the Shipyards and Jacksonville. Bring the NOISE.

Paul Astleford, Ben Warner, we need to kayak Downtown before 2025.

In today's "State of the Franchise" address by the Jaguars organization, Lamping and Khan introduced a lot of concepts for the next 5 years. The stadium as we know it will be changing by more than scoreboards. The hour long address is available on jaguars.com but here is a screenshot of Khans proposed Shipyards development plan that includes training facilities and sports venues. Sorry, this is just a screenshot from computer, if someone can get one with better detail that'd be great!

(http://i.imgur.com/kD7zEFu.jpg)

Tough to make out from the screen cap, what type of other sports venues are included?

QuoteLamping and Khan introduced a lot of concepts for the next 5 years.

LOL, Tony Sleiman announced a concept of cutting the Landing in half and adding new residences downtown earlier this year too. However, as with Lampoon and Stache, no one has announced how to pay for it.

Nice to present pretty little pictures, but we've all been sold magic beans before downtown.

^ Khan will gladly pay for all of it himself...I'm sure all we have to do is give him the land for free

Land for free? I hope not. He pretty much got the Laura Street trio and old Barnett Bank Bldg for free. If he pays a fair market price for it, that might work. I did see that they are thinking about an indoor practice facility at The Shipyards, and I think that is a terrible idea. Taking a premium part of the city and turning over to the Jags for private practice prevents anyone else in the city from ever using it. It will be surrounded by their "private" parking. I would like to see him bring in an experienced and successful Real estate developer to his "team."  Because while he has made a lot of money with auto parts, he has no real estate development accolades that I am aware of. And to state the obvious, Jacksonville has been FOR SALE for years and there have been no takers.

There's too much focus on the Shipyards, IMO. We should be worrying about all the underutilized uses and surface parking lots along the riverfront in the heart of the Northbank first. However, if Khan wants the Shipyards, he should pay for it instead of being given the property for free.

Whatever we do as a city, take the reigns of power out of the Mayor's hands. He is a terrible negotiator. No one in their right mind in leadership would have proposed giving an owner of the Charitable No Federal Taxes Paid NFL 40 million of citizen money when the owner only has to pony up 20 million for video jumbotrons. Giant Pong televisions, when the City Pension is gobbling up 40 million dollars every few months like its Ms. Pacman in search of the cherry.

Brown is liable to give the Shipyards away, yet again, to get himself on TV. "Oh, I'm fixing downtown with new Pong video boards, This is a game-changer". As my esteemed author says, " YAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWN"

Quote from: JayBird on May 13, 2014, 05:07:20 PM
In today's "State of the Franchise" address by the Jaguars organization, Lamping and Khan introduced a lot of concepts for the next 5 years. The stadium as we know it will be changing by more than scoreboards. The hour long address is available on jaguars.com but here is a screenshot of Khans proposed Shipyards development plan that includes training facilities and sports venues. Sorry, this is just a screenshot from computer, if someone can get one with better detail that'd be great!

(http://i.imgur.com/kD7zEFu.jpg)

The entire east side of the plan appears to be the indoor and outdoor practice fields and associated surface parking.

QuoteThe same with the future projects — create the kind of premium experience that fans are willing to pay premium prices for but also expand the team's footprint away from the stadium.

■ The indoor practice facility. This was the first time Lamping has put this idea out for public consumption. The Jaguars' headquarters would remain at the stadium.

"If we're going to be the developer of the shipyards, we think it makes a lot of sense to integrate the Jaguars, and one way to get people interested in going over there is to have the team doing some practices [inside]," Lamping said. "The idea of having a covered facility with an outdoor field that would allow for football-themed activities, it would draw a lot of people."

http://members.jacksonville.com/sports/football/jaguars/2014-05-13/story/ideas-abound-jaguars-club-renovations-indoor-practice

So giving this property over to Khan for a song may not be the best long term plan? Shocking.

So given a choice between giving to Khan (who obviously has put substantial resources into planning) and selling it to all of those developers lining up to buy it and begin work immediately,  I'd vote for reality over the fairy tale.

I'm not sure if anyone can tell the details of the screenshot of the site plans, they are fuzzy at best. Though I agree, the city shouldn't just 'give' away the land, but if Khan is proposing the practice fields in addition to some commercial development on the property, I don't see what's the big deal. The Jaguars have been talking about building an indoor practice field for at least the past 3 years. I'm not sure how big of an attraction that would be to get people to come downtown. At best that's only going to last during the football season. I suppose they could probably offer that property up during FL/GA and Gator Bowl Events for schools to practice at as well. But if they added some commercial infill that could definitely be a draw. I'm sure Sleiman would be against it because that definitely would kill what little life is left in the Landing.

Sometimes something is worth more than a whole lot of nothing...

Quote from: mtraininjax on May 14, 2014, 06:50:57 AM
Whatever we do as a city, take the reigns of power out of the Mayor's hands. He is a terrible negotiator. No one in their right mind in leadership would have proposed giving an owner of the Charitable No Federal Taxes Paid NFL 40 million of citizen money when the owner only has to pony up 20 million for video jumbotrons. Giant Pong televisions, when the City Pension is gobbling up 40 million dollars every few months like its Ms. Pacman in search of the cherry.

Brown is liable to give the Shipyards away, yet again, to get himself on TV. "Oh, I'm fixing downtown with new Pong video boards, This is a game-changer". As my esteemed author says, " YAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWN"

Considering the Jags only host 10-15 events inside the stadium a year, Khan doesn't own the stadium (the city does), the city is required by law to maintain the stadium and insure it's occupancy, the scoreboards seem like a no brainer.... They were clearly the low point of the stadium along with the sound system. These new boards should greatly outlast their predecessor and draw much more attention to the stadium, hopefully filling it with some sort of event close to 200+ days a year.

Quote from: mtraininjax on May 14, 2014, 06:50:57 AM
Whatever we do as a city, take the reigns of power out of the Mayor's hands. He is a terrible negotiator. No one in their right mind in leadership would have proposed giving an owner of the Charitable No Federal Taxes Paid NFL 40 million of citizen money when the owner only has to pony up 20 million for video jumbotrons. Giant Pong televisions, when the City Pension is gobbling up 40 million dollars every few months like its Ms. Pacman in search of the cherry.

Brown is liable to give the Shipyards away, yet again, to get himself on TV. "Oh, I'm fixing downtown with new Pong video boards, This is a game-changer". As my esteemed author says, " YAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWN"

While I am no fan of Brown, this is a pretty dumb statement. Yes, no other cities or states give millions of dollars to sports franchises. Only happens in Jax. Yea right.  Ya still delusional from the Hogan for Mayor and Sleman days I guess.

Quote from: comncense on May 14, 2014, 09:30:41 AM
I'm not sure if anyone can tell the details of the screenshot of the site plans, they are fuzzy at best. Though I agree, the city shouldn't just 'give' away the land, but if Khan is proposing the practice fields in addition to some commercial development on the property, I don't see what's the big deal.

No big deal to me. Regardless of what goes on that site, it's so isolated and disconnected from the DT core and neighborhoods to the north that the greater impact on the "outer square" at the pedestrian scale level isn't going to be significant. With a jail and coffee plant across the street, there won't be much opportunity for existing downtown businesses to benefit from spillover traffic in the vicinity either.

In reality, any type of entertainment, cultural, retail use, etc. proposed for that site would have more visible pedestrian scale and more immediate economic/atmosphere changing impact being placed on one of the many surface parking lots south of Bay, between the Acosta and Courthouse site instead. With that said, Khan could propose turning the site back into a shipyards again as long as he's willing to pay for the property.

QuoteJaguars would link Shipyards with team; concept has practice fields at site

By Marilyn Young, Editor

Just under 30 minutes into the Jacksonville Jaguars' State of the Franchise news conference, a slide about the Shipyards popped up in a PowerPoint presentation.
It wasn't the Shipyards as it sits now, bare and empty.

It was a concept of what the Shipyards could be, not of something actually in the works.

There were docks and several buildings on the 40-acre site.

And there were practice fields for the Jaguars, an intentional tie to the team that plays just across the street at EverBank Field.

Team President Mark Lamping said plans continue to evolve for the site.

But, he said, "Know that we're going to make sure if we're the developer, that we're going to integrate the team into the Shipyards development to give it even more interest."

That integration could include indoor and/or outdoor practice fields, Lamping said, but would be something so the Shipyards site "can continue to be themed with this city's NFL franchise."

full article: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=542934

Many people (most who aren't sports fans) wanna disconnect the sports aspect with revitalizing DT Jacksonville. Well like it or not, the sports community headed by Shad Khan continues to be the most aggressive faction of rejuvenating downtown Jacksonville.  Mayor Brown staying out of the way (besides the Cindy Laquidara folly)  is a GOOD thing IMO.

Listen to Alan Verlander who doesn't have a dog in the fight politically as he said that Brown was the best sports-friendly mayor; That one thing I have to give Brown credit on, because the sports events and another non-sports events shows, regardless of your bias and hate! To the people who are anti-sports; Who else has the capacity to rejuvenate, and is actively pursuing a better DT besides Shad Khan right now??? Yeah, I thought so....

Quote from: I-10east on May 14, 2014, 02:39:25 PM
Many people (most who aren't sports fans) wanna disconnect the sports aspect with revitalizing DT Jacksonville. Well like it or not, the sports community headed by Shad Khan continues to be the most aggressive faction of rejuvenating downtown Jacksonville.  Mayor Brown staying out of the way (besides the Cindy Laquidara folly)  is a GOOD thing IMO.

Listen to Alan Verlander who doesn't have a dog in the fight politically as he said that Brown was the best sports-friendly mayor; That one thing I have to give Brown credit on, because the sports events and another non-sports events shows, regardless of your bias and hate! To the people who are anti-sports; Who else has the capacity to rejuvenate, and is actively pursuing a better DT besides Shad Khan right now??? Yeah, I thought so....

I don't think anyone disagrees that sports tourism is a valuable path the mayor has pushed for. I think it came at the cost of other important civic details that needed addressing. It really comes down to motivation. The mayor is extremely motivated to get more sports into COJ. However he is not so motivated to work on some other civic responsibilities (ie: budget).

To Lake's comments, the lack of connectivity is real and the city would like to address it (IMHO).  Khan also knows its a blight sitting right next to his most valuable asset. So either COJ get off its collective booty and get the mayor motivated or let Khan run with it and finish his "thousand step" journey he proposes.

How much is the Shipyards worth?  How much are the Jags/Khan willing to pay?  Putting practice fields on that site is just stupid. That's my opinion. There are plenty of non waterfront non premium parcels near the stadium where they can practice. For Gods sake develop it for all of the city, not just the "8 games a year" football team. Make it a destination not just for our citizens, but for folks driving south on I-95 (365 days a year) who might choose to stop there on their way to Orlando or South Beach. Nobody will stop to watch the Jags practice. Nobody is watching the Jags practice now.

I guess what I'm asking is "Are the Jags willing to pay the fair market price of a premium waterfront parcel for practice facilities, and is that the best highest use for all of the citizens of this city and county?"

^^ I agree.  I don't see any benefit to putting a practice facility on the riverfront.  Makes no sense at all.  Waterfront property should either be high caliber public use space and/or high density mixed use (residential, hotel, office, retail ,etc.)

Quote from: spuwho on May 14, 2014, 04:30:02 PM
To Lake's comments, the lack of connectivity is real and the city would like to address it (IMHO).  Khan also knows its a blight sitting right next to his most valuable asset. So either COJ get off its collective booty and get the mayor motivated or let Khan run with it and finish his "thousand step" journey he proposes.

Everyone wants vibrancy but there appears is a major problem in most not realizing the importance of connectivity at the human scale level.  I agree that every journey begins with a step but some journey to success can be accomplished in 50 or 100 steps instead of a 1,000. Historically, when it comes to downtown redevelopment, Jax tends to make things a lot more time consuming, difficult and expensive than they have to be.

Personally, I'm not sure there's much one can do with the Shipyards that would generate the type of foot traffic popular waterfronts like Chattanooga and Baltimore's Inner Harbor are known for. The immediate (say, in less than 10 years) opportunity for spill over economic activity on surrounding properties and neighborhoods (especially to the north) is simply not there. A lot more is needed then just building stuff on the property itself. What happens to the jail site, Maxwell House, Berkman, Metropolitan Park, the parking lots around EverBank Field, makes or breaks that site.

Then even if you do find success, all you've most likely done is siphoned off traffic and shifted activity for the core of the Northbank. You could spend a fraction of the costs of placing the same uses in targeted sites in the heart of the city and urban waterfront and build a pretty exciting, compact place in a third of the time and effort it will truly take to fully integrate that site. I've heard a ton of ideas for the Shipyards site but outside of a Jags practice facility, most proposed ideas are better suited for the many parking lots within short walking distance of the river between the Acosta and Hyatt. I'm not a fan of an aquarium but even that type of attraction makes more sense in a spot like the parking lot separating RCB, MOSH and Friendship Fountain or in one of the lots next to Omni. For those who want a place to lay in grass along the riverfront, a redeveloped Landing and Hogan Street could work. Such uses could also work on the Landing's east lot between Hyatt and the Main Street Bridge.

Nevertheless, maybe the Inner Harbor-style type of vibrancy isn't really desired and all we truly want is just to put something/anything on that abandoned industrial site, hell or high water, simply because it's been snake bitten for so long? Or maybe it's time to really drill down what we want our waterfront to be and figure out how to properly implement that vision/dream?

So you guys don't like an aquarium, the SeaGlass tower project, and Khans Proposed project....who's plan do you guy like anyway? maybe you guys just like it to sit there empty for years to come..

A practice field can be used for other events as well not just practice. Some very short sighted views on here. Guess we should let it sit empty. After all, there's a long line of developers waiting right?

^Or perhaps there's just a level of healthy skepticism about handing valuable public property over to the first person who asks nicely.

No one said he should get it for free, again let it sit empty then for a few more decades while everyone complains about a vibrant city, lol. Some of you are worst than the people who run this city! Like I said there's a long line of developers waiting for this riverfront property.

Quote from: Rynjny on May 14, 2014, 05:45:37 PM
So you guys don't like an aquarium, the SeaGlass tower project, and Khans Proposed project....who's plan do you guy like anyway? maybe you guys just like it to sit there empty for years to come..

If this is in response to my post, I don't think you got what I just wrote. I personally could care less about anyone's plan for the Shipyards. If North Florida Shipyards wanted to expand and bid on the property I still wouldn't lose much sleep.  I don't see site as a major initial priority in turning DT Jax around. Fill it with whatever you want and all the problems plaguing the Northbank are still present. In addition, the under utilized riverfront at the core of the city is still just that....underutilized.  It's not about uses, it's about connectivity and getting the most ROI and spill over economic opportunity from public investments, for me.

The city/community need to figure out what they want in an urban waterfront and implement that plan. Whatever comes should align with that vision and be an incremental step in achieving that community goal. When private sector development is desired, issue RFPs and use that money to fund public improvements as opposed to giving land away.

With that said, the fact that many are sitting around waiting for a grand savior to swoop in with their own visions, answers, proposals, and money is actually another problem. That's not coordination. That's a piecemeal approach that typically leads to the type of environment we've been trying to bring life too.

Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on May 14, 2014, 06:05:25 PM
No one said he should get it for free, again let it sit empty then for a few more decades while everyone complains about a vibrant city, lol. Some of you are worst than the people who run this city! Like I said there's a long line of developers waiting for this riverfront property.

+100

Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on May 14, 2014, 06:05:25 PM
No one said he should get it for free...

Umm. Actually the rumor going around town is that there is a desire for free land. Hopefully, it's not true.

Can someone give an example of a practice field that is used by other parties/uses?  I'm not a big NFL follower, so their may be many that I just don't know of, but it would be the first I have heard of it.  Given the reputation of the NFL, such a facility would charge an arm and a leg too.

I agree with Lake, that the true urban core (Northbank) needs to come first.  A thriving compact core would drive up the value of the Shipyards anyway as it would be the 'next frontier' once the empty lots in the core have returned to viable use.  The Shipyards site might be for the next decade. Filling it now with single-purpose facilities is probably a bad move. 

Quote from: thelakelander on May 14, 2014, 06:10:21 PM
With that said, the fact that many are sitting around waiting for a grand savior to swoop in with their own visions, answers, proposals, and money is actually another problem. That's not coordination. That's a piecemeal approach that typically leads to the type of environment we've been trying to bring life too.

Funny lake, this gave me a vision of the infamous tornado swarm of May 3, 1999, out in front of Oklahoma Search and Rescue... I could just image trying CPR on a victim where the head is on one side of the street, and the body scattered in various other locations! This is exactly what JAX has been doing at least since the end of mayor Jake's last term.

Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on May 14, 2014, 06:05:25 PM
No one said he should get it for free, again let it sit empty then for a few more decades while everyone complains about a vibrant city, lol. Some of you are worst than the people who run this city! Like I said there's a long line of developers waiting for this riverfront property.

I get the gist of what you're saying and few would argue with the fact that something useful is better than nothing. However, subscribing to Lake's theory of urban revitalization (which I'm sure is pretty widely accepted), the most successful path toward vibrancy is connectivity and synergy in a concentrated area. As it pertains to the Shipyards, there is no sense in anyone pouring money down the drain to implement any use for that property that won't be sustainable and won't add any vibrancy to the area. Downtown has suffered long enough from investment that hasn't created any vibrancy, whats the sense in enabling more wasted funds, regardless of whose money it is? Even if Khan paid full market price for the land so that no public interest was wasted, I'd still want his money to be used effectively. I don't want anybody wasting their money...eg, buying expensive waterfront property to build something that would be equally or more beneficial elsewhere.

Quote from: vicupstate on May 14, 2014, 06:35:27 PM
Can someone give an example of a practice field that is used by other parties/uses?

I would suggest that the facility could serve as both a Jags practice field and a home stadium for the Jacksonville Armada, but soccer really isn't meant to be played indoors.

Everyone seems to be missing that there are two practice fields in the plans. One outdoor, one indoor. I'm all for incorporating the Jags into the site but practice fields there is retarded. They'll have to fenced with the same black siding the current fields have (to prevent snooping by other teams) so it won't really make any difference to the players, in terms of it being a lure to free agents and such. I think the team would be much better off looking at some of the developments that Euro soccer teams have done, with museums, play facilities for young ones, team centered bars, ect and all in a multi-use setting. To be honest though the plans in the State of the Franchise are highly disappointing. After Barnett and some of the other Khan investments I thought he might be the sugar daddy we need, but thinking its a good idea to segregate part of the shipyards for practice facilities gives me heavy doubts....

There's no sugar daddy coming to Jax's rescue.

I think Khan might be the sugar daddy, but the implication with a sugar daddy is that he's getting a lil somethin in return.
Yes, we have to be able to offer some benefit for him as well.

Quote from: thelakelander on May 14, 2014, 05:25:32 PM

Quote from: spuwho on May 14, 2014, 04:30:02 PM
To Lake's comments, the lack of connectivity is real and the city would like to address it (IMHO).  Khan also knows its a blight sitting right next to his most valuable asset. So either COJ get off its collective booty and get the mayor motivated or let Khan run with it and finish his "thousand step" journey he proposes.

Everyone wants vibrancy but there appears is a major problem in most not realizing the importance of connectivity at the human scale level.  I agree that every journey begins with a step but some journey to success can be accomplished in 50 or 100 steps instead of a 1,000. Historically, when it comes to downtown redevelopment, Jax tends to make things a lot more time consuming, difficult and expensive than they have to be.

Personally, I'm not sure there's much one can do with the Shipyards that would generate the type of foot traffic popular waterfronts like Chattanooga and Baltimore's Inner Harbor are known for. The immediate (say, in less than 10 years) opportunity for spill over economic activity on surrounding properties and neighborhoods (especially to the north) is simply not there. A lot more is needed then just building stuff on the property itself. What happens to the jail site, Maxwell House, Berkman, Metropolitan Park, the parking lots around EverBank Field, makes or breaks that site.

Then even if you do find success, all you've most likely done is siphoned off traffic and shifted activity for the core of the Northbank. You could spend a fraction of the costs of placing the same uses in targeted sites in the heart of the city and urban waterfront and build a pretty exciting, compact place in a third of the time and effort it will truly take to fully integrate that site. I've heard a ton of ideas for the Shipyards site but outside of a Jags practice facility, most proposed ideas are better suited for the many parking lots within short walking distance of the river between the Acosta and Hyatt. I'm not a fan of an aquarium but even that type of attraction makes more sense in a spot like the parking lot separating RCB, MOSH and Friendship Fountain or in one of the lots next to Omni. For those who want a place to lay in grass along the riverfront, a redeveloped Landing and Hogan Street could work. Such uses could also work on the Landing's east lot between Hyatt and the Main Street Bridge.

Nevertheless, maybe the Inner Harbor-style type of vibrancy isn't really desired and all we truly want is just to put something/anything on that abandoned industrial site, hell or high water, simply because it's been snake bitten for so long? Or maybe it's time to really drill down what we want our waterfront to be and figure out how to properly implement that vision/dream?

Connectivity? How about our river and it's tributaries especially in this new CRA/DIA zone?

We talk about a sugar daddy. Who is the sugar pimp?

At the 5/13/14 Jacksonville city council meeting new legislation was introduced 2014-305 and I asked council president Bill Gulliford if he could have it sent to the Jacksonville Waterways Commission that was meeting the next day. it didn't happen. The next day the chair of Waterways Don Redman didn't bring it to the attention of the JWC members. The concern for everyone should be will this be fast tracked and miss an opportunity to cycle through Waterways. is this legislation positive or negative for this 4.8 mile new waterfront zone that includes the Shipyards property?

Here is just one example. And Scott Wilson, Tony Allegretti, Paul Crawford feel free to jump in here at any time and this is Pre Aundra Wallace the new CEO of the DIA.

Not this years boat show that took place at the same time as One Spark. But last years Boat Show I was kayaking over to the floating docks that are there right now at a fenced in parcel.

So during a subcommittee meeting of the DIA prior to the issuance of an RFI, RFP on Shipyards and during an opportunity to speak I asked if anyone wanted to pull up to the existing floating dock that is there right now for public or commercial purposes could they?  NO! NO! absolutely not.

So here we are today and I invite all of you to share what your interpretation of 2014-305 is especially the seizure of your watercraft for violating a docking rule.

There is so much more on this issue. But we are talking about Shipyards. And we all have given up asking you know who about you know what.

If you have access to the river than you are good. And the heck with anyone else especially Downtown on our St. Johns River an American Heritage River a FEDERAL Initiative in our new CRA/DIA in the USA zone.

QuoteConnectivity? How about our river and it's tributaries especially in this new CRA/DIA zone?

Not to many of us can walk on 40' deep water but the health of the river and us finding ways to better integrate ourselves with it is important.

Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on May 14, 2014, 05:53:34 PM
A practice field can be used for other events as well not just practice. Some very short sighted views on here. Guess we should let it sit empty. After all, there's a long line of developers waiting right?

still waiting for someone to show one NFL practice facility that is used by others for non-football purposes?

and even if there is one, let's ask this question....is a private football practice field the "highest and best" use of riverfront property?  Many folks are skeptical about using riverfront property for a convention center, which clearly would be a more active and productive space than a practice facility.

Quote from: tufsu1 on May 15, 2014, 08:26:57 AM

Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on May 14, 2014, 05:53:34 PM
A practice field can be used for other events as well not just practice. Some very short sighted views on here. Guess we should let it sit empty. After all, there's a long line of developers waiting right?

still waiting for someone to show one NFL practice facility that is used by others for non-football purposes?

As others have mentioned it could house the Armada, which would further solidify the "sports district." When high schools and colleges travel they need facilities to practice in. When I played football in high school we used the Dolphins practice fields (which were very nice, unlike their stadium), before the State Championship game. There are constantly youth sports / play 60 events going on which could use the field to attract more people to the downtown area (play 60 could host their summer camps here as well). If a football museum and some bars, etc were incorporated into the mix you could have a true "sports district" and an attraction / event location to have people in the area nearly 365 days a year (Sharks, Armada, Suns, Jags, Giants, Monster Jam, BMX / MotoX, Concerts, State Championship games?, NCAA basketball & NCAA football, LAX, Fulham, USMNT, etc). The more venues in the area, the more events you can host. The more events that are hosted in that area, the more likely investors will try to make a buck by putting in some more attractions to keep people around. The more people that hang around, the higher the likely hood that some will visit the Urban Core.

Sounds like they envision something similar to Patriot Place in Fox. Perhaps a waterfront version...

(http://o.aolcdn.com/dims-shared/dims3/PATCH/format/jpg/quality/82/resize/442x295/http://hss-prod.hss.aol.com/hss/storage/patch/c107c4abbf1a9666e17ff7d9738925c0)

(http://ccap.zenfolio.com/img/s1/v55/p503793093-3.jpg)

(http://www.patriot-place.com/assets/landing_page/Map1024480.jpg)

http://www.patriot-place.com/

I'm with Lake on this entirely.  Practice fields and sports complex?  This is Khan serving Khan.  The Shipyards aren't ready yet for becoming a major foot traffic driver or tourist attraction because there's too much shit surrounding it that will prevent the area from becoming a successful extension of downtown (and at this point, an extension of what?  there's nothing downtown to anchor any of this).

There's a reason Khan is proposing practice fields: nothing else can go on the site today and Khan isn't a real estate developer.

About that, let's get another thing straight - just because Khan has his own money and owns the Jaguars doesn't mean he knows how to develop real estate.  I actually take offense at the notion that people think he can.

Finally, what is everyone's obsession about creating a sports empire in Jax as if it's primed to do so?  Atlanta has a lock on college sports, but cities in the South and especially FL are pretty horrible professional sports towns.  Why put eggs in that basket?  Jax is a small market, has a lot of transplants and fans loyal to other teams, and I say if Miami/Tampa have a hard time supporting their teams, then what makes us think lil ol Jax can?

Quote from: simms3 on May 15, 2014, 10:22:28 AM
I'm with Lake on this entirely.  Practice fields and sports complex?  This is Khan serving Khan.  The Shipyards aren't ready yet for becoming a major foot traffic driver or tourist attraction because there's too much shit surrounding it that will prevent the area from becoming a successful extension of downtown (and at this point, an extension of what?  there's nothing downtown to anchor any of this).

There's a reason Khan is proposing practice fields: nothing else can go on the site today and Khan isn't a real estate developer.

About that, let's get another thing straight - just because Khan has his own money and owns the Jaguars doesn't mean he knows how to develop real estate.  I actually take offense at the notion that people think he can.

Finally, what is everyone's obsession about creating a sports empire in Jax as if it's primed to do so?  Atlanta has a lock on college sports, but cities in the South and especially FL are pretty horrible professional sports towns.  Why put eggs in that basket?  Jax is a small market, has a lot of transplants and fans loyal to other teams, and I say if Miami/Tampa have a hard time supporting their teams, then what makes us think lil ol Jax can?

It's small minded and short sighted thoughts like this that leave this city 2nd rate. You have to build for the future and do things different to be successful. All of you nay sayers have no valid ideas for development and critique every idea someone has into the ground. This forum has taken a drastic turn towards developing on the scale of RAP. WE CAN BE AN EXCITING AND DIVERSE CITY. Let the people with the money to make a difference try.... /rant

Money or no money, good idea or great idea......they all don't matter if we can't get it right at the pedestrian scale level. I understand people want Jax to be world class and great, but don't overlook the basic building blocks of establishing a successful walkable city. 

Quote from: thelakelander on May 14, 2014, 11:26:41 PM
There's no sugar daddy coming to Jax's rescue.

Ya sorry, sugar daddy was a poor choice of word late at night. I should have said I had hopes he'd be another prime player on the scene, that would continue to fill voids like development at the trio/barnett. I'd love to see the next swing be something in San Marco or Brooklyn. Although when thinking about this last night and my poor choice of using sugar daddy, I became torn. Part of me thinks maybe Shad just wants to get the Shipyards because he sees them as an eyesore so close to the stadium. Another part of me thinks he is taking a home run, sugar daddy swing. And of course the option of he wants both. Both of these have parts that really disappoint me, let me deal with the eyesore theory first.

If it's an eye sore to Shad and changing it is for the betterment of the gameday experience, why not recognize the other problematic areas? How do they not see the neighbors are a jail and industrial plant? And if we are developing on an eyesore basis, how about all those parking lots used a few times a year...

As for home run swing, I will first say I know this was promoted as a way to get Jags fans excited. Its not Shad's next development deal. But... if this is a home run swing concept, it's a shite one. This plan comes down to a lot of teams trying to get there own Patriot Place. NFL teams looking for new revenue streams started looking overseas in the late 90s and saw soccer teams with massive land deals, generating tens to hundreds of millions of pounds/euros. When New England got Patriot Place it started to bring more prominence to this idea, and helped the Patriots sell themselves even more, now as saviors to a once dead area, but mainly of course gave the Krafts/Patriots even deeper pockets. Plenty of teams want to emulate this, but from what I've seen compared to some other similar team land deals, the concept here stinks big time. If we are conceptualizing and taking a home run swing, I have to question how bad this is as we know Stache has met with the Seaglass and aquarium. While they have their problems too, you think some of the concepts like making it/continuance of the area as a entertainment district. You think with the problems at Berkman II they'd have seen the opportunity, at least in imagineering, to extend the land closer to the Elbow and where things are actually happening. To give an example of what I would be pleased with in the crazy concept stage, plan for a convention center at the courthouse, tear down down berk II and use as part of that land for aquarium that would come into the shipyards property. Include a tower that is Jags tower. Move team offices there (which they don't want to do as they just spent I believe ten mill renovating the offices), bottom floor have a Jags bar/restaurant/small plaza that is center of activity for away games. Have a experience Jaguars museum, where fans can see great moments/games, memorabilia, ect. Promote something that is pedestrian friendly, using the riverwalk to really get a nice string going from the core section on down to the stadium using the shipyards. I think that in reality is what they want, but they did a bad job of realizing it. Well, I'll stop for a bit, I'm probably just thinking wacky...

Speaking of sport organizations developing land, the Giants lease several piers from the Port of SF here.  Obviously they already built their stadium waterfront, but across a canal from the stadium is more land.  They have partnered with Strada Investment Group (http://stradasf.com/) to develop the land for them, since obviously a sports organization isn't in the business of real estate development.

Their plans include high rise residential and office, a park, and rehabilitation of the piers into creative/active uses.

Anchor Steam Brewing is already signed up to relocate to Pier 48:

(http://beerpulse.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/AnchorPier48MediaVisual_Low-Res.jpg)

http://beerpulse.com/2013/02/anchor-brewing-co-formally-announces-new-brewery-revises-capacity-projection/

And further conceptual renderings are below:

(http://www.livesoma.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/park_full_resolution.jpg)
http://www.livesoma.com/2012/06/12/mission-rock-proposal-june/

(http://cdn.cstatic.net/images/gridfs/51685caaf92ea15b1c004f0d/MissionRockDesignConcept-TheMissionRockDistrict%20(1)_Page_02-thumb.jpg)
http://sf.curbed.com/places/mission-rock

(http://www.hargreaves.com/projects/Waterfronts/MissionSeaWall/SeaWall_6.jpg)
http://www.hargreaves.com/projects/Waterfronts/MissionSeaWall/

The site as it stands today:

(http://i.vimeocdn.com/video/359745475_640.jpg)


Awesome fly over video that MetroJacksonville's website won't seem to let me embed:
[vimeo]51960690[/vimeo]
http://vimeo.com/51960690

Quote from: simms3 on May 15, 2014, 10:50:21 AM
Speaking of sport organizations developing land, the Giants lease several piers from the Port of SF here.  Obviously they already built their stadium waterfront, but across a canal from the stadium is more land.  They have partnered with Strada Investment Group (http://stradasf.com/) to develop the land for them, since obviously a sports organization isn't in the business of real estate development.

Their plans include high rise residential and office, a park, and rehabilitation of the piers into creative/active uses.

Anchor Steam Brewing is already signed up to relocate to Pier 48:

(http://beerpulse.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/AnchorPier48MediaVisual_Low-Res.jpg)

http://beerpulse.com/2013/02/anchor-brewing-co-formally-announces-new-brewery-revises-capacity-projection/

And further conceptual renderings are below:

(http://www.livesoma.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/park_full_resolution.jpg)
http://www.livesoma.com/2012/06/12/mission-rock-proposal-june/

(http://cdn.cstatic.net/images/gridfs/51685caaf92ea15b1c004f0d/MissionRockDesignConcept-TheMissionRockDistrict%20(1)_Page_02-thumb.jpg)
http://sf.curbed.com/places/mission-rock

(http://www.hargreaves.com/projects/Waterfronts/MissionSeaWall/SeaWall_6.jpg)
http://www.hargreaves.com/projects/Waterfronts/MissionSeaWall/

The site as it stands today:

(http://i.vimeocdn.com/video/359745475_640.jpg)


Awesome fly over video that MetroJacksonville's website won't seem to let me embed:
[vimeo]51960690[/vimeo]
http://vimeo.com/51960690

When I was referring to other teams land deals in my post, this is definitely one I was thinking of. I love that i don't even have to post it, the masterful Simms does it for me  ;D

Regardless of the intended use, the Shipyards will be difficult to develop due existing contamination and the impacts that the contamination will have on collection and treatment of stormwater.  By difficult I mean expensive.

http://www.capitolriverfront.org/

(http://greatergreater.com/images/201208/170927-1.jpg)

http://theyardsdc.com/gallery/

Jax is currently being bashed by Colin Cowherd. He's talking about his super bowl experience. No downtown, no cabs, horrible  mulitmodal transportation network, limited dining, etc....yada, yada, yada....

Quote from: jaxjaguar on May 15, 2014, 10:31:27 AM
It's small minded and short sighted thoughts like this that leave this city 2nd rate. You have to build for the future and do things different to be successful. All of you nay sayers have no valid ideas for development and critique every idea someone has into the ground. This forum has taken a drastic turn towards developing on the scale of RAP. WE CAN BE AN EXCITING AND DIVERSE CITY. Let the people with the money to make a difference try.... /rant

I totally agree. Despite Jax being a transient-city mainly because of the Navy, I still think that we have our own thing here in FL, in contrast to the other wishy-washy markets (MIA TB) that are many times bigger than Jax. It's inexplicable for Jax to outsold Miami and Tampa in ticket sales before, but it happened. Like many said so far, I'm actually not wowed about practice fields on riverfront property, but I'm also sick of the Shipyards being vacant too. Khan's proposal sure as hell beats pie in the sky Landmar deals. 

I may have missed it, but did Khan say what would become of the old practice fields? Would the riverfront facilities essentially replace them?

Really like those plans Simms posted from San Fran, and I hope that Khan and the Jags can also find an established development firm to partner with on the Shipyards if/when they get it.

Just for the sake of really thinking with no limits.... The old practice fields could be converted into multi-use parking garages for the stadium / surrounding venues. The Jags could move their offices into the garages to still be near the stadium but allow future expansion within the stadium if needed. The SkyWay could connect to this garage as well. Throw in an "NFL Experience" center and something like the ESPN zone in Atlanta and you have a little pre/post event hotspot.

Y'all just need to stop arguing about this..just leave the shipyard empty that's what's good for the city and cost no money.

LOL, no reason to get sensitive. All this is, is just a conversation and a mixing of different ideas, theories, visions and dreams from the community. Nothing to lose sleep over.

I'm all about letting Khan develop the Shipyards site.  But the riverfront property is too valuable to just be handed over.  Development should be guided by what is in the public's best interest, and by no means should the land be given away for free. 

My impression is that the Jaguars just want something active there.  They are willing to see that it gets developed but would prefer someone else does it.  I think COJ should extend the street ends to the riverwalk and RFP it in sections.  If they don't get good responses from that then divide it into lots and RFP it again.  Baby steps.

Quote from: tufsu1 on May 15, 2014, 12:57:24 PM
I'm all about letting Khan develop the Shipyards site.  But the riverfront property is too valuable to just be handed over.  Development should be guided by what is in the public's best interest, and by no means should the land be given away for free.

How valuable is it considering the environmental liability?

Quote from: thelakelander on May 15, 2014, 11:23:21 AM
Jax is currently being bashed by Colin Cowherd. He's talking about his super bowl experience. No downtown, no cabs, horrible  mulitmodal transportation network, limited dining, etc....yada, yada, yada....

Cowherd is a moron.

He's the Glenn Beck of sports radio.

The environmental liability cannot be overlooked as a major barrier in a small town with almost no demand for any such thing.

However, if the city were hot and pricing were better (rents, condos, etc) then the environmental mitigation simply becomes another step.  There are lots of cities that have successfully redeveloped their piers and shipyards.

All the more reason for the city to piecemeal the redevelopment...own the land, ground lease it to developers who can work with business owners such as Intuition or small condo developers.  Jax private (or public) market can't handle a single piece of land like the Shipyards.

Quote from: simms3 on May 15, 2014, 01:37:40 PM
The environmental liability cannot be overlooked as a major barrier in a small town with almost no demand for any such thing.

However, if the city were hot and pricing were better (rents, condos, etc) then the environmental mitigation simply becomes another step.  There are lots of cities that have successfully redeveloped their piers and shipyards.

All the more reason for the city to piecemeal the redevelopment...own the land, ground lease it to developers who can work with business owners such as Intuition or small condo developers.  Jax private (or public) market can't handle a single piece of land like the Shipyards.

Currently, the City is not on the hook for the environmental liability.  If they lease it, they will be.

Agree with you about the demand for brownfield sites in other cities.  Atlantic Station in ATL is a prime example.

That is true...but that is where the public investment will need to come in.  A private group simply can't make stuff pencil out at the Shipyards.  If the city thinks there's a group out there that will assume full risk of mitigation, design, and implementation, the city is out of its mind.

The Warriors were going to build their new arena on a pier here in SF, hired a global starchitect for design, had a full plan.  They were going to spend $130M to retrofit the pier to hold the arena, and the city was not going to be liable for anything.  NMBYism forced them further south.  However, SF, Boston, and NYC are the only cities in this country where the demand is so hot and land so scarce that private developers will take on enormous financial risk.  Even AT&T Park here (Giants) is privately financed.

Jax needs *major* public commitment to turn this land around.

Quote from: MEGATRON on May 15, 2014, 01:20:18 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on May 15, 2014, 12:57:24 PM
I'm all about letting Khan develop the Shipyards site.  But the riverfront property is too valuable to just be handed over.  Development should be guided by what is in the public's best interest, and by no means should the land be given away for free.

How valuable is it considering the environmental liability?

the part closes to the Berkman has been fully remediated.  The part east of the creek is what needs the most work. 

Quote from: tufsu1 on May 15, 2014, 02:49:00 PM

Quote from: MEGATRON on May 15, 2014, 01:20:18 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on May 15, 2014, 12:57:24 PM
I'm all about letting Khan develop the Shipyards site.  But the riverfront property is too valuable to just be handed over.  Development should be guided by what is in the public's best interest, and by no means should the land be given away for free.

How valuable is it considering the environmental liability?

the part closes to the Berkman has been fully remediated.  The part east of the creek is what needs the most work.

Remaining contamination will make installation of stormwater management facilities very costly.

"I guess what I'm asking is "Are the Jags willing to pay the fair market price of a premium waterfront parcel for practice facilities, and is that the best highest use for all of the citizens of this city and county?"

What is the fair market value of land that no one is bidding on? Last I knew, the market sets the price, not some sort of intrinsic valuation based on what people think it ought to be worth.  And there is no such thing as giving land away for "free" if the property will generate beaucoup tax dollars forever.  Many of you guys are ignoring the fact that even if the city "gives it away for nothing", an investment of a property that is generating ZERO income that turns into a tax cash cow is a pretty damned reasonable strategy.

QuoteMany of you guys are ignoring the fact that even if the city "gives it away for nothing", an investment of a property that is generating ZERO income that turns into a tax cash cow is a pretty damned reasonable strategy.

Uh, ok, let's use your logic, what is the taxpayer's return on the 43 million given to Khan for JUMBO PONG Screens? How many years before we get that money back?????

I thought we were talking about the Shipyards.  The pong boards is a non sequitur.  First of all, "giving away" the shipyards doesn't cost $40 million of new money.  Developed property brings in money.  Second, the pong boards are designed to attract attention to the franchise. Attention converts to bodies.  Bodies convert to money.  But I'm not here to justify pong boards.  I want someone, anyone, to develop the Shipyards.  Sitting around arguing about "highest best use" and "market value" ensures that nothing happens.

By the way, you didn't answer the question.  What's the property worth if no one is bidding on it.

If we're going to "give it away for nothing", there will be plenty of other interest besides Khan, but some are acting as if he's the only one who even wants this property. Point is, if we're just going to give it away, we can do better than a practice football field and surface parking on the riverfront.

Alternately, we could do what we should have done all along, which is working with a developer to create something of best and highest use that includes a public element.

QuoteWhat is the fair market value of land that no one is bidding on?

Generally, property needs to actually be offered for sale before people will bid on it. In this case, an RFP has not been issued nor has COJ contracted with any real estate maketing professionals to see what the market is for the property. The only thing happening with the Shipyards right now is an attorney asking for the City to give the land away for free to the Jags. That's not really a situation where competitive bids are being sought.

It's a nice contrast with what's going on with the land directly across the river at the Wyndham which is being marketed regionally.

Too further add on to Field's point, I would buy the land for a couple million dollars next week if the city let me. It would be a piece of cake to raise that kind of money to get that land at such a heavily discounted rate. I'm sure many, many others would pay much more.

Another thing to consider regarding the value of the Shipyards is that there are other incentives or grants that can make a site more attractive to the free market. The city has an incentive program called REV Grant, which gives developers of certain projects a lump sum payment as a refund of future tax increases from development on a project. Depending on the scale of what Khan wants to do, he could probably get north of $25 million through this program. For comparison, 200 Riverside got a $4.9 million dollar REV Grant.

I'm perfectly ok with giving Khan (or another developer) the land at a discounted rate, even moreso if there are environmental remediation costs. However, like any other incentive program, the benefit to the public needs to be weighed when deciding what to do with it and how much to sell it for.

I think we all want what's best for the city, for downtown, and for the Jaguars....but I think we all need to ensure that the Mayor doesn't try to hook his biggest campaign donor up with the land for free if he isn't going to provide the community with an improvement worthy of the heavy discount. Until we see more concrete plans, its hard to make that judgment of worthiness, but as Field said, the proper process is not being followed at this time.

QuoteI thought we were talking about the Shipyards.  The pong boards is a non sequitur. 

I am just reusing your statement, in which you stated that:

Quoteeven if the city "gives it away for nothing", an investment of a property that is generating ZERO income that turns into a tax cash cow is a pretty damned reasonable strategy.

The city did give away 43 million in taxpayer funds to a 4x Billionaire, who only put in 20 million. The same city gave away the revenue from the naming rights to the Jaguars, it seems that every time there is a proposal by the Jaguars, the City bends over and the taxpayers end up paying for it. Blank check has a nice ring to it.

The 43 million was money that would have otherwise gone to city services, purchases of equipment, items to help the city and its taxpayers, us. What do the pong boards do for taxpayers? They make the footballs look a little bigger on the TV screen, for those who have bad eye sight to begin with. Do they make the team better? No. Do they enhance the value of a city owned facility, maybe, but are we selling the stadium to Khan.....yet?

When you can show me how pong boards convert to putting more seats in the stands, we can discuss the validity of your argument. Just today, the Times Union reported that ticket sales for season tix at the Jags are a little better than last year, maybe due to the draft, maybe due to the pong boards, but still woefully under the 90% threshold that Lamping is using to show sell outs. Best and fastest way to get there is to win. We all know that.

Mayor Brown had a number of people go around the city and build a list of all the city property and the value of each property owned by the city. Surely if anyone has a value of the property, he has it.

I'm all for development of the Shipyards too, but not using the same metrics with which most deals are done with the people at the Jaguars. We've really bent over backwards for them, for a long time, and their product on the field reflects the attendance in the stands, that's not OUR fault, its their fault. So if a guy is a billionaire 4x over walks into Mayor Brown's office and presents pretty pictures and a nice story board, please tell him to bring his checkbook to cover the real value of riverfront property. This should not be a gimme, City should get fair value of the property as it sits, where it sits.

If nothing else, we can turn it into a Paul Crawford Mud pit when it rains, as evidenced by the cars parking on it of late.

Quote from: fieldafm on May 16, 2014, 02:02:52 PM

QuoteWhat is the fair market value of land that no one is bidding on?

Generally, property needs to actually be offered for sale before people will bid on it. In this case, an RFP has not been issued nor has COJ contracted with any real estate maketing professionals to see what the market is for the property. The only thing happening with the Shipyards right now is an attorney asking for the City to give the land away for free to the Jags. That's not really a situation where competitive bids are being sought.

It's a nice contrast with what's going on with the land directly across the river at the Wyndham which is being marketed regionally.

+1 Good information.

Quote from: downtownbrown on May 16, 2014, 01:32:22 PM
Many of you guys are ignoring the fact that even if the city "gives it away for nothing", an investment of a property that is generating ZERO income that turns into a tax cash cow is a pretty damned reasonable strategy.

Practice fields on the riverfront does not constitute tax boon for city since they can't technically value that land any higher than it is valued now (essentially worthless).  Practice fields are not income producing, nor are they even close to highest and best use.  The tax conversation is not worth having with Khan's proposal.

Quote from: Tacachale on May 16, 2014, 01:54:43 PM
If we're going to "give it away for nothing", there will be plenty of other interest besides Khan, but some are acting as if he's the only one who even wants this property. Point is, if we're just going to give it away, we can do better than a practice football field and surface parking on the riverfront.

Alternately, we could do what we should have done all along, which is working with a developer to create something of best and highest use that includes a public element.

Totally agree.

Quote from: fieldafm on May 16, 2014, 02:02:52 PM

QuoteWhat is the fair market value of land that no one is bidding on?

Generally, property needs to actually be offered for sale before people will bid on it. In this case, an RFP has not been issued nor has COJ contracted with any real estate maketing professionals to see what the market is for the property. The only thing happening with the Shipyards right now is an attorney asking for the City to give the land away for free to the Jags. That's not really a situation where competitive bids are being sought.

It's a nice contrast with what's going on with the land directly across the river at the Wyndham which is being marketed regionally.

Right on.  It would be an absolute CRIME if there were not a competitive process to sell and/or develop the Shipyards land.  I'm not saying demand would be all that high because it's a lot of land and Jax is a tiny, non-performing market with no vision and horrible real estate metrics, but there could be some demand, perhaps more if the city were to piece out the site like SF has done block by block around the new Transbay Terminal (that way all sorts of developers get to try their hand, and as more land is sold, the remaining developers who have been priced out before are chomping at the bits to get the last remaining opportunities, thus keeping pricing up).

Quotebut there could be some demand, perhaps more if the city were to piece out the site like SF has done block by block around the new Transbay Terminal (that way all sorts of developers get to try their hand, and as more land is sold, the remaining developers who have been priced out before are chomping at the bits to get the last remaining opportunities, thus keeping pricing up).

Been advocating that for years. It's clear though that COJ doesn't have an appetite for seperating the land unfortunately.

People hear San Fran and immediately counter that Jax is light years different then SF (or Brooklyn- Brooklyn Bridge Park), but Jax compares well with places like Columbus, Ohio or Milwaukee, WI... who have done similar things.

(http://waterbuffalomilwaukee.com/sites/default/files/waterbuffalo.jpg)

Wasn't a bad idea then and isn't a bad one now.  If this was done a full decade ago, the entire site would probably be built out by now.

Quote from: fieldafm on May 16, 2014, 07:34:20 PM

Quotebut there could be some demand, perhaps more if the city were to piece out the site like SF has done block by block around the new Transbay Terminal (that way all sorts of developers get to try their hand, and as more land is sold, the remaining developers who have been priced out before are chomping at the bits to get the last remaining opportunities, thus keeping pricing up).

Been advocating that for years. It's clear though that COJ doesn't have an appetite for seperating the land unfortunately.

People hear San Fran and immediately counter that Jax is light years different then SF (or Brooklyn- Brooklyn Bridge Park), but Jax compares well with places like Columbus, Ohio or Milwaukee, WI... who have done similar things.

(http://waterbuffalomilwaukee.com/sites/default/files/waterbuffalo.jpg)

So if nobody wants the risk of developing a HUGE piece of waterfront land in SF and would rather buy an individual parcel being sold off by the city's redevelopment agency, then because Jax is vastly different there will be tons of developers looking to master-develop an entire 47 acre piece of contaminated riverfront land?!?!

Are there people in Jax smoking more crack than Rob Ford?

Has someone in Jacksonville received the memo yet that Jax is at the bottom of the American totem pole on everything and that nobody really wants the risk of the place??  A way to counter that is to lower an investors' risk by providing a concrete guideline and overall master vision for what the city wants, exactly, for the Shipyards, and then break it up and leave it up to a multitude of developers to make smaller, palpable bets to get it done?

I guess that would be too logical..."only" an MBA could ever think up such an idea and I suppose Jax is lacking in those.  Hmmm   ;)

Whatever is done with this property, I would hope one or more parcels are kept as straight up green space for the public to sit or stroll and observe the river. It is beautiful in that area.

Quote from: fieldafm on May 16, 2014, 07:34:20 PM

Quotebut there could be some demand, perhaps more if the city were to piece out the site like SF has done block by block around the new Transbay Terminal (that way all sorts of developers get to try their hand, and as more land is sold, the remaining developers who have been priced out before are chomping at the bits to get the last remaining opportunities, thus keeping pricing up).

Been advocating that for years. It's clear though that COJ doesn't have an appetite for seperating the land unfortunately.

People hear San Fran and immediately counter that Jax is light yyears different then SF (or Brooklyn- Brooklyn Bridge Park), but Jax compares well with places like Columbus, Ohio or Milwaukee, WI... who have done similar things.

(http://waterbuffalomilwaukee.com/sites/default/files/waterbuffalo.jpg)

Love the pic with the boat slip. CRA/DIA in the USA meeting 5/20/14 at 3pm and it will be about Downtown. Let's never forget about the Jim Love, Kevin Kuzel 26' Berkman floating dock compromise (Shipyards III) misrepresented by OGC to the Jacksonville Waterways Commission during the 2013 FIND grant application process. I will swear to that under oath. it is brilliant and I had nothing to do with it. Also super props to councilwoman Boyer and just reading from the 4/9/14 Jacksonville Waterways Commission minutes at that meeting council member Lori Boyer said that she would like to see a map that illustrates all of the Public Access points on the Northbank made available. So at the 5/14/14 Jacksonville Waterways Commission meeting during Public Comment I asked councilman Redman the Chair of Waterways about the list. Not available.

The point is that regardless of what happens with Shipyards there is and always has been another opportunity for the immediate creation of an organic, infill, tactical node that would provide a spark for connectivity to Bay St. and Mark's. More importantly a connection to our St. Johns River an American Heritage River a FEDERAL Initiative in our new super duper restricted DIA zone.

Quote from: IrvAdams on May 16, 2014, 09:03:36 PM
Whatever is done with this property, I would hope one or more parcels are kept as straight up green space for the public to sit or stroll and observe the river. It is beautiful in that area.

The city would have complete control of this by master planning a vision for the property, putting in infrastructure and dividing the remaining property up into different parcels for private development.

^Isn't that what the CRA/DIA process is all about?

Story on Daily Record that Khan and Jags will make a proposal for Shipyards in next few weeks.

Who was the Original Author of this thread?

^^See page one of this thread:

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,18672.0.html

Here's a link to Kahn's latest thoughts on the Shipyards property:

QuoteShad Khan: Shipyards proposal expected within weeks

Friday, July 25, 5:35 PM EDT
By Karen Brune Mathis, Managing Editor

Jacksonville Jaguars owner Shad Khan said Friday he expects to make a proposal to the city in the next couple of weeks to redevelop the Shipyards, the vacant riverfront acreage near EverBank Field considered a prime Northbank redevelopment site.

"We've got it queued up. I am really excited," Khan said Friday after a news conference to announce that EverBank and the Jaguars have agreed to EverBank's naming-rights extension on the stadium.

Full article: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=543503

QuoteKhan said after the news conference that Jacksonville is attracting economic development. At the conference, he said a prospect that could bring 4,000 jobs to Jacksonville visited the city Thursday. He would not identify the prospect.

"People are discovering Jacksonville," he said.

When we hear speculation like this we (or at least I) tend to take a "believe it when I see it" approach. Except when it comes from Khan, I do kinda believe it right away. Feeling very hopeful about this one!

^ Keep in mind that Khan is also the primary funder behind the Laura Street Trio and the Barnett Bank building...still waiting on those projects.

^^But as I recall didn't he just help finance the purchase of the properties by Atkins?  Which has happened.  As I recall he was not going to be developing the properties.

He facilities getting the ownership of the property into local hands and it would appear that the local guy after much fanfare seems to be falling short once again. Maybe that is why he sees a need for a different approach on the Shipyard project. Which aligns with his comments a while back about locals with money not having any vision.

Quote from: tufsu1 on July 27, 2014, 09:19:15 AM
^ Keep in mind that Khan is also the primary funder behind the Laura Street Trio and the Barnett Bank building...still waiting on those projects.

Then we also have to keep in mind that he's only backing the projects in funding only.

When you think about the recent projects that he's stamped his name to:

Buying the Jags
Locker Room / Weight Room Upgrades
Complete Office Remodel
Speaker Upgrades at the stadium
Multiple fan experience upgrades at the stadium
Public funding assisted Stadium Upgrades (Scoreboards / pool)
Purchasing the Fulham
Attempting to build a direct line market from Europe to Jacksonville

All of those things he did with the Khan stamp on them and was / is out front with those projects.  They happened quickly.  They were all high-quality.  They are all progressive / unique in their own markets.  The fact that he plans to develop the shipyards using that same approach, I would expect it sooner rather than later and probably with more 'progress' built in than we're even debating at the moment.

agreed...but in his case I think his plan is to be the master developer....which means he won't necessarily be developing any of the individual projects on the property.

believe me, I'm fully confident that Khan can build whatever he wants pretty quickly....just not completely sold that he will.

Quote from: tufsu1 on July 27, 2014, 09:19:15 AM
^ Keep in mind that Khan is also the primary funder behind the Laura Street Trio and the Barnett Bank building...still waiting on those projects.

Well he funded the loan to purchase the properties. Everything else is pretty much in the hand of the developers. But I am very confident that whatever they propose for the shipyards will happen. Khan usually does his homework and has all his ducks in a row. I doubt he would propose something with no meat behind it.

Quote from: tufsu1 on July 27, 2014, 09:19:15 AM
^ Keep in mind that Khan is also the primary funder behind the Laura Street Trio and the Barnett Bank building...still waiting on those projects.

I did have it in mind when I was typing that post, but all I remember is that he would finance the purchase...which he did.

Quote from: fieldafm on August 14, 2013, 04:55:25 PM

QuoteI wonder if this "event" is part of an effort to refocus attention on the Shipyards.  Perhaps.   Ben are you going to be part of this?  Get out there and support "Intuition Ale Works"

There was another event scheduled for the Shipyards leading up to TPC that got rained out.  Sports and Entertainment have looked at ways to activate the property with large events.  It's not really a site that you can do something small with as there are specific site considerations associated with holding events there.

The shipyards would be a great temporary event space, however as I have found out the hard way... the site itself presents some unique limitations from a risk perspective.  Jason Fisher (of Content Design) and myself talked to several people about decking out the space temporarily with shipping container storefronts, sort of like Brooklyn Flea (you can google that).  Although it was always met with a 'great idea', no one has wanted to put in the work to help make that vision a reality.  Unfortunately, you do need help with things from time to time no matter how resourceful you are.  This is one of those things you would need help with.

QuoteI believe the Berkman Plaza is still mired in lawsuits due to the collapse of the garage which resulted in the death of a worker.

What complicates that further is that all of those companies have gone belly up.

Meanwhile, the City still holds bond debt on the property.

Several parties have approached the City with creative ways to carve out at least a part of the property (sort of like the Columbus Commons model posted about extensively on MJ), but the City hasn't been really looking to get creative apparently.  Khan's proposal included a tremendous handout from the City.  From what I understand of that deal, I don't think that it would be a great deal for taxpayers on the surface. 

The Shipyards is part of this new yet to be voted on CRA/DIA zone. 4.8 miles is Waterfront according to a CRA consultant and that zone is from the Fuller Warren Bridge to the Mathews Bridge. What this entire city, region, and the Governor of Florida need to be aware of is the picking of the winners and losers when establishing the economic opportunity that should exist for everyone on our St. Johns River an American Heritage River a FEDERAL Initiative in our new super duper highly restricted CRA/ DIA zone.

Let's all remember the 4/2/14 Noticed meeting by Dist. 14 city councilman Jim Love and then acting Chair of Waterways Don Redman Dist. 4 about new docking Rules and PENALTIES. Does this need to be looked at in this new CRA/DIA zone? YES! Again picking and choosing the winners and losers. 2014-305 is active legislation that the DIA Board could offer a resolution on that can be converted to an amendment that can be carried by District 5 Jacksonville city council member Lori Boyer who is also the city council DIA liaison. Will They? The CEO, councilwoman Boyer and some DIA board members are aware of this. DIA Board meeting 3 days out. Will any media be there? Will CRA draft be part of the agenda. I have yet to have an email back from CEO Aundra Wallace on my concerns and he will have been on the job one year Aug. 19

Also when developing the Shipyards we have to have in the conversation the recent illegal unauthorized purchase of water taxis by the Executive branch that circumvented the legislative branch. 2014-412. Not good. Again picking and choosing the winners and losers.

Opportunity for Who?

A new Authority
Embrace It
Or
it will Embrace Us

Restore the Public Trust

Pretty sure this is what StephenDare has been referring to for the last month, and will probably get its own MJ forum post shortly. JBJ just released four pictures of a tentative plan provided to Khan for the Shipyards property. I'm impressed.

http://m.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2014/07/28/exclusive-a-first-look-at-possible-jaguar-plans.html?ana=twt&r=full (http://m.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2014/07/28/exclusive-a-first-look-at-possible-jaguar-plans.html?ana=twt&r=full)

(http://i.imgur.com/1705Ek1.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/NGwBQGT.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/E4P3cZ4.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/pXjf5pp.jpg)

Hmmmm....   some interesting ideas there but the apparently VERY preliminary renderings are lacking.  Curious to hear more on this one.

Interesting. However, Stephen is referring to another project.

Btw, Kahn's project looks like DC's National Harbor development mixed with Jags practice football facilities.

This looks a little more realistic than past proposals.  I hope it goes!

hooray for ferris wheels...such a unique idea!

http://www.citylab.com/tech/2014/07/what-happens-when-every-city-has-a-giant-ferris-wheel/375012/

Ohhhh my, a ferris wheel! I'd ride that thing everyday!

Quote from: stephendare on July 28, 2014, 03:53:31 PM
actually, I'm not a fan of the pedestrian plans for the shipyards properties---and I'm prepared to be proven wrong, but meh..  My reference is to a much smaller, but better for downtown project.

Now my curiosity is really piqued. Especially since most plans regarding that area are very pedestrian-oriented.

But just to be clear, nothing is happening besides some drawings until COJ asks for proposals in the fall right?

COJ can't just hand the land over to Kuhn. At some point, they'd have to issue a Request for Proposals, allowing other groups a chance to attempt to get the property as well. So in the meantime, we'll get to see pretty pictures of various group's ideas for the land.

Quote from: thelakelander on July 28, 2014, 04:18:53 PM
COJ can't just hand the land over to Kuhn. At some point, they'd have to issue a Request for Proposals, allowing other groups a chance to attempt to get the property as well. So in the meantime, we'll get to see pretty pictures of various group's ideas for the land.

Who is Kuhn?  ;D

Reading the article in the JBJ, is it possible these designs are nothing more than an overzealous developer wanting to get his plans seen by Shad Khan?

Quote from: duvaldude08 on July 28, 2014, 04:34:57 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on July 28, 2014, 04:18:53 PM
COJ can't just hand the land over to Kuhn. At some point, they'd have to issue a Request for Proposals, allowing other groups a chance to attempt to get the property as well. So in the meantime, we'll get to see pretty pictures of various group's ideas for the land.

Who is Kuhn?  ;D

lol. My bad. Khan.

Quote from: duvaldude08 on July 28, 2014, 04:34:57 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on July 28, 2014, 04:18:53 PM
COJ can't just hand the land over to Kuhn. At some point, they'd have to issue a Request for Proposals, allowing other groups a chance to attempt to get the property as well. So in the meantime, we'll get to see pretty pictures of various group's ideas for the land.

Who is Kuhn?  ;D

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=1762.0

Uh-oh.

We're in trouble.

Quote from: KenFSU on July 28, 2014, 04:44:57 PM

Quote from: duvaldude08 on July 28, 2014, 04:34:57 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on July 28, 2014, 04:18:53 PM
COJ can't just hand the land over to Kuhn. At some point, they'd have to issue a Request for Proposals, allowing other groups a chance to attempt to get the property as well. So in the meantime, we'll get to see pretty pictures of various group's ideas for the land.

Who is Kuhn?  ;D

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=1762.0

Uh-oh.

We're in trouble.

The Pied Piper of Jacksonville.

Some of the comments in that thread are funny.

Okay, I don't want to rush to judgment before really understanding what these things are supposed to be, but is that really two different football fields and another parking garage? On riverfront property? And I hope those office and/or apartment designs are just too preliminary to include the streetfront retail that any downtown project should include, because otherwise it's a major, major oversight.

Ferris wheel.

If the city leadership decides that they want Khan to have the shipyards, it will happen regardless of other proposals.  This is like Waste Management and Trail Ridge only bigger.  Make no mistake that Khan not only has the full support of the Mayor on this he already has some on council that you would never imagine would support this development deal firmly in his corner.  Consider this headline from the Jacksonville Daily Record, Brown awaits Shipyards plan from Khan.  What are we going t do next boss?  There is no real consideration at this point to how well designed a proposal Khan is submitting, the city is just looking to get a monkey off of their back.  That monkey is the shipyards.

http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=543520

Quote from: pierre on July 28, 2014, 04:37:17 PM
Reading the article in the JBJ, is it possible these designs are nothing more than an overzealous developer wanting to get his plans seen by Shad Khan?

that's the way I read it. there's really no indication that the architect has any relationship, much less a contract, with Khan.

river4340.  This is a design done at the request of Khan and was recently showcased in Orlando as Khan's design.  Notice, it says Khan's plans could include.  By the looks of it this is an initial idea with everything but the kitchen sink thrown in.  My guess is to see what sticks and most resonates with those in the city who will be making the decision on a final Shipyards deal.

QuoteShad Khan's plans for the Shipyards could include office, retail, residential and medical facilities — and perhaps a Ferris wheel, according to plans unveiled at a builders conference in Orlando.

During a presentation at the Southeast Building Conference, Orlando architect Don Evans laid out renderings he said he had designed for Shad Khan, which can be clicked through above.

The plans include office, retail, residential and medical facilities, according to a source at the conference. Representatives with Evans Group said Monday they are "not allowed to discuss the plans" for the property and declined comment.

Probably be a good chance that once the RFP goes out he may be the only even submitting a proposal. Or at least the one with the financing to actually pull it off instead of spirals in the sky silly proposals.  While I am sure these are very preliminary at least they appear realistic in scope.

Quote from: duvaldude08 on July 28, 2014, 04:34:57 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on July 28, 2014, 04:18:53 PM
COJ can't just hand the land over to Kuhn. At some point, they'd have to issue a Request for Proposals, allowing other groups a chance to attempt to get the property as well. So in the meantime, we'll get to see pretty pictures of various group's ideas for the land.

Who is Kuhn?  ;D

flower company?

Quote from: edjax on July 28, 2014, 06:59:08 PM
Probably be a good chance that once the RFP goes out he may be the only even submitting a proposal. Or at least the one with the financing to actually pull it off instead of spirals in the sky silly proposals.  While I am sure these are very preliminary at least they appear realistic in scope.

Even if he isn't the only one interested, the powers that be can easily tailor the RFP to ensure he gets it. After all, there hasn't been any recent public input or visioning for the property.

Quote from: Cheshire Cat on July 28, 2014, 06:36:10 PM
river4340.  This is a design done at the request of Khan and was recently showcased in Orlando as Khan's design.  Notice, it says Khan's plans could include.  By the looks of it this is an initial idea with everything but the kitchen sink thrown in.  My guess is to see what sticks and most resonates with those in the city who will be making the decision on a final Shipyards deal.

QuoteShad Khan's plans for the Shipyards could include office, retail, residential and medical facilities — and perhaps a Ferris wheel, according to plans unveiled at a builders conference in Orlando.

During a presentation at the Southeast Building Conference, Orlando architect Don Evans laid out renderings he said he had designed for Shad Khan, which can be clicked through above.

The plans include office, retail, residential and medical facilities, according to a source at the conference. Representatives with Evans Group said Monday they are "not allowed to discuss the plans" for the property and declined comment.

Well, I've certainly been wrong before.

If Khan is willing to pay the $232 million the Mayor wants for his City Projects, for the property, in cash, up front, I have no problem selling him the property and tax incentives. After all, its no cash out of citizens pockets for tax increases, and a win-win for the Mayor and Khan. I doubt that the land is worth that amount, but maybe the Mayor's and some council members souls are worth that amount?

Quote from: Cheshire Cat on July 28, 2014, 06:26:39 PM
If the city leadership decides that they want Khan to have the shipyards, it will happen regardless of other proposals.  This is like Waste Management and Trail Ridge only bigger.  Make no mistake that Khan not only has the full support of the Mayor on this he already has some on council that you would never imagine would support this development deal firmly in his corner.  Consider this headline from the Jacksonville Daily Record, Brown awaits Shipyards plan from Khan.  What are we going t do next boss?  There is no real consideration at this point to how well designed a proposal Khan is submitting, the city is just looking to get a monkey off of their back.  That monkey is the shipyards.

http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=543520

+1

Quote from: JayBird on July 28, 2014, 03:21:01 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/1705Ek1.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/NGwBQGT.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/E4P3cZ4.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/pXjf5pp.jpg)

JB, Thanks for posting those pics. Just think that we just kicked to the curb the Water taxi company from Baltimore because the contract expired and under the new RFP we told them they needed to supply a 350 seat capacity for this community to make Downtown a Destination and not a pass through. They had vessels with a 346 seat capacity. Just 4 short. You are losers. Leave. Get out. You aren't welcome. We no longer require your services. We pick the winners and losers.

At the 7/23/14 Jacksonville Waterways Commission meeting it was announced by Tera Meeks Chief of Waterfront Management and Programming that the new RFP instead of 350 seats it will now be 120.

2014-412 Active legislation before the Jacksonville city council on the 2 Unauthorized illegal purchases of the water taxis.
2014-305 - New Docking Rules and PENALTIES in a new 4.8 mile Waterway zone. Active legislation.
2013-669 Surplus city property for Police and Fire Pension Fund

DIA Board meeting tomorrow 7/30/14 will there be any media there? CRA announcement? Will the next level include you?

Looking at the site plan, I'm not going to cry about it at this point.  It does look more realistic then some of the other proposals I've seen. 

(http://i.imgur.com/1705Ek1.jpg)

Based off this conceptual, the property has been split into two. On the west side of Hogans Creek, there appears to be a street grid featuring multiple parcels for mixed-use infill development. There's also good chunks of riverfront property serving as green space. Whether you like ferris wheels, observation decks, carousels, fountains, fisherman's wharfs, marinas, floating ship museums, etc., there seems to be space to accommodate entertainment venues such as those. What's shown in the sketch could easily become any of these scenes, depending on the design of the final uses:

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Atlantic-City/i-SH94mDG/0/M/P1720237-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Chattanooga-Next-City-Vanguard/i-5XzD95B/0/M/DSCF1718-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Detroit-2014/i-WJDSMjP/0/L/P1700762-L.jpg)


Guys like Noone could even have their own charter fishing boat and kayak services as a part of what's shown above. Especially, since those uses are simply being stymied by city policy, not site design and layout.

The east side of Hogans Creek is clearly Jags football oriented. The fields probably won't be used every day, but they could draw extra events to the area, which helps stimulate foot traffic to any adjacent dining, entertainment, maritime, cultural, and retail uses. Nevertheless, they're still surrounded with public access to the waterfront in the form of the riverwalk, along with linear green space.  Such "flex space" could be used for anything from laying in the grass and reading books to kiosks for local vendors and periodic waterfront festivals.  It's also hard to see from the graphic, but those football facilities could be designed to be mixed use as well, thus featuring perhaps a Jags retail store, sports related museums/galleries, bars, bike rental shops, etc. The sky is really the limit.

The major no-no I see at the moment (based on the sketch) is the watefront parking garage.  There has to be a better way to handle parking on site.  This is where thinking about mass transit could really help downtown in general.  If you had a streetcar line or skyway extension to Everbank Field, you could construct a parking garage in one of the large surface parking lots north of the Hart Bridge Expressway. Mass transit could then connect the Jags stuff with this site and everything else in downtown.  Going one step further, maybe you kill the garage altogether and take advantage of the arena's garage, which is two blocks north.  After all, it sits empty most of the year.

Looks like the plan was done on spec:

While the architect publicly detailed some of his own visions of what the Shipyards property might look like in the future, Edwards said it's important to note that Khan hasn't committed to any design proposal.

"We have met with several people on plans and ideas and a decision has not been made at this time on what has to follow," Edwards said. "There are plans out there that are ideas from other people. Those are their plans and not necessarily ours."

Khan's personal spokesman Jim Woodcock said in an email Tuesday the architectural renderings unveiled in Orlando were unsolicited.

"We did not pay this architect, nor will we, for these renderings that represent his vision, nor ours. Nor will we play any architect for unsolicited work," Woodcock said. "This architect requested a meeting and Shad and the Jags agreed to it. At that time the renderings were shown to Shad and the Jaguars by this architect, nothing more. We did not request renderings from this architect or any architect."

http://members.jacksonville.com/sports/football/jaguars/2014-07-29/story/architectural-proposal-use-jacksonville-shipyards-unveiled

Quote from: stephendare on July 29, 2014, 11:52:44 AM
what.  You don't think its 'dated' or 'too 1993'?  ;)

I come from an architectural background, so my perspective will be a little more technical oriented of course, but all I see is a "massing model". There's nothing to get really excited or depressed about. There is no detailed design or plan. As far as massing models go, it's not a bad one for that site, IMO. The uses that were suggested do fit with what's shown. You could even stick your buddy's 1960s Seattle Space Needle in the middle of it and the overall space massing really doesn't change much.

Rendering quality aside, it's more realistic then some of the stuff that's been floating around to date.

With that said, evidently, what was shown was only that guy's vision for the site.

Lol, Radio Shack will be located next to Boomtown Theatre! ;)

The Ford's skylark is parked in the garage. Look real hard, you'll see Gerald and Betty inside. Rumor is, he's a sucker for "Lil' Mama's" peanut gravy!

The JBJ has taken the images down because they are copyrighted and it didn't have permission to use them. It's also made it clear, as the T-U did,  that the architect is not working with Khan at all.

QuoteKhan hopes to unveil official Shipyards plans in September

Although Shad Khan has met with an Orlando architect to discuss his ideas for the Shipyards property, the recently released renderings were but one of many unsolicited ideas, Khan's spokesman said Tuesday.

"Other submissions have been made, but not by our request," spokesman Jim Woodcock said in an email. "And we are not requesting submissions at this time."

Khan would like to unveil his official plans by the start of the NFL season, Woodcock said. The Jaguars' first game is Sept. 7 against the Philadelphia Eagles.

full article: http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2014/07/29/khan-hopes-to-unveil-official-shipyards-plans-in.html

Quote from: thelakelander on July 29, 2014, 11:49:25 AM
Looking at the site plan, I'm not going to cry about it at this point.  It does look more realistic then some of the other proposals I've seen. 

(http://i.imgur.com/1705Ek1.jpg)

Based off this conceptual, the property has been split into two. On the west side of Hogans Creek, there appears to be a street grid featuring multiple parcels for mixed-use infill development. There's also good chunks of riverfront property serving as green space. Whether you like ferris wheels, observation decks, carousels, fountains, fisherman's wharfs, marinas, floating ship museums, etc., there seems to be space to accommodate entertainment venues such as those. What's shown in the sketch could easily become any of these scenes, depending on the design of the final uses:

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Atlantic-City/i-SH94mDG/0/M/P1720237-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Chattanooga-Next-City-Vanguard/i-5XzD95B/0/M/DSCF1718-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Detroit-2014/i-WJDSMjP/0/L/P1700762-L.jpg)


Guys like Noone could even have their own charter fishing boat and kayak services as a part of what's shown above. Especially, since those uses are simply being stymied by city policy, not site design and layout.

Bingo! instead of just picking the winners and losers. Opportunity for all. Don't believe me just ask the Baltimore guys. How is the illegal unauthorized purchase 2014-412 of the water taxis coming along?

DIA Board meeting today at 4 pm. 1st floor city hall. Anyone going? Will there be any media there? CRA? Has anyone seen an agenda?

2014-305 New docking Rules and PENALTIES on a new 4.8 mile super duper restricted zone. We will soon be telling people to VISIT JACKSONVILLE as we use the RIO St. Johns an American Heritage River a FEDERAL Initiative as we transport you from one Illegal side of the river to the other illegal side of the river.

Legislation is the dialogue of the community.

Quote from: pierre on July 28, 2014, 04:37:17 PM
Reading the article in the JBJ, is it possible these designs are nothing more than an overzealous developer wanting to get his plans seen by Shad Khan?

Just had a feeling and this seems to be the case.

What this says to me is there "could be" some legitimate and realistic competition to develop the property starting to happen.

Khan's plans probably include the USS Adams.....

QuoteShad Khan's plan for Shipyards would likely include USS Adams

By Karen Brune Mathis, Managing Editor

Plans for the redeveloped Shipyards Downtown by the Jacksonville Jaguars likely will include space for the USS Charles F. Adams Naval Ship Museum.
"If we go forward with the Shipyards, there's no question we would love to have the Adams be part of it," said Jaguars President Mark Lamping.

City Council committees are reviewing legislation to authorize the Downtown Investment Authority to execute a development agreement between the city and the Jacksonville Historic Naval Ship Association Inc. to moor the ship along a pier at the city-owned Shipyards and operate a naval museum.

Lamping said Tuesday the Jaguars have met with Adams supporters at least six times about the project to move the Cold War-era guided missile destroyer to the property.

full article: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=543544

Here's the old conceptual sketch:

(http://members.jacksonville.com/sites/default/files/USSadamsRendering4x3.jpg)

That's a lot of real estate there.

^All those guys need is a mooring spot. Any of those existing piers should do the trick.

Naval ship: thumbs up
Aquarium: thumbs down

Whatever they're going to do militarily, I'm hoping it won't simply have a Navy focus. Think regionally. That USS Adams destroyer could and perhaps should be the overwhelming focus but give serious recognition to all of the Services. People in Jacksonville often forget how close a major Army post (Fort Stewart) is just up the road in Georgia, or the Florida National Guard's headquarters at Camp Blanding in Clay County, or the serious Air Force installations in the Panhandle.

Being retired military and a Veteran, I don't think "off focus" will be a problem Gator relative to other branches being interested (whether up the road or not), or the general public for that matter. Armed Forces is Armed Forces and just because I am Navy, don't mean I wouldn't be interested in an Army or Marine Corps Museum say in Valdosta or Fort Bragg; I would. We all fight (or fought) and served in uniform (yes different uniforms) but the goal, mission and objective was the same: "defend these United States from all enemies." The public, most don't really know the REAL difference in the Armed Forces for the exception of the uniform each Armed Service wears, and the type of weapons used for defense; so they'll be happy just to see some type of Armed Forces Museum or Attraction be it a Navy Ship or Army, Air Force, Marine Corps or even Coast Guard Attraction/Museum; my take? BRING IT ON!!!

Killashee has moved on from the observation deck and the Shipyards.....

Jaguars owner Shad Khan could have Shipyards to himself

QuoteJaguars owner Shad Khan might have the field to himself if he follows through on his oft-stated interest in becoming master developer of the city-owned Shipyards property on the downtown riverfront.

So far, the only other group that has gone public with interest in the Shipyards is Killashee Investments, a Ponte Vedra Beach firm that showed off a concept last year featuring Skyglass Tower, which would soar over the river with a 1,000-foot-high observation deck.

Mark Farrell, owner of Killashee Investments, said his group has put that concept on the back burner while focusing on other real estate developments.

He said if Khan decides to formally propose to become the developer of the Shipyards, Khan would be a "great person to take this on and lead the charge."

"I can't think of a better person to do it, to be honest with you," Farrell said.

full article: http://members.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2014-08-03/story/jaguars-owner-shad-khan-could-have-shipyards-himself

So the group that does not have a pot to piss in deferred to the guy worth 1 billion. Good call.

Yeah that guy.

Just for the record, Forbes puts Khan's net worth at $4.3B.

http://www.forbes.com/profile/shahid-khan/ (http://www.forbes.com/profile/shahid-khan/)

The first regular season game is almost here.... Any updates? Did he mean the first regular season home game? lol

I think they said around the beginning of the season, nothing concrete.

Quote from: edjax on September 02, 2014, 05:10:56 PM
I think they said around the beginning of the season, nothing concrete.

From the Times-Union a few weeks back:

QuoteKhan expects to have a plan ready for city consideration by early September, around the time the Jaguars start their regular season, according to team officials.

I have a feeling we're going to hear something soon.

Quote from: stephendare on September 03, 2014, 09:35:31 AM
You will. (separately from the other thread in which the developer of the cool project still has officially asked that we hold the announcement).

"soon" is probably the most frustrating word in the English language.  But it will happen soon, along with an announcement on Berkman 2 and the fixing of the hole on South Liberty.  Sounds like they all might happen at once.

Let's just hope these announcements don't turn out like the Laura Trio, Barnett, Artist studios across from the court house, etc. Khan seems to be a man of his word, but I feel like I'm getting jaded by all of these failed/delayed projects recently.

Quote from: KenFSU on September 03, 2014, 09:31:15 AM

Quote from: edjax on September 02, 2014, 05:10:56 PM
I think they said around the beginning of the season, nothing concrete.

From the Times-Union a few weeks back:

QuoteKhan expects to have a plan ready for city consideration by early September, around the time the Jaguars start their regular season, according to team officials.

I have a feeling we're going to hear something soon.

According to Daily Record today they are still putting things together and have no timetable
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=543840

What better way to get some buzz about your new plans than to present them live during the home opener, on the new jumbotrons, to ~70,000 people which will subsequently blast it over social media on your new wifi network, news outlets will pick it up, papers will print it and possibly have the network mention it during halftime break to an additional 2-300,000 people?

^ Would be a good thing to play during Chad Henne's unforced timeouts too ;)

I kid, I kid.

In all seriousness:

Quote"Pending due diligence and resolution of environmental issues on the property, which housed a working shipyards until it closed in 1992, the Jaguars expect to make the proposal."

I hope the delay doesn't have anything to do with the City Council axing the mayor's capital improvement plan. I believe environmental remediation of the Shipyards site was a part of it.

If my comment above did happen and City hall had a few thousand people knocking on their door asking, "why they aren't helping the project proceed" I think they'd be a little scared and make some changes. Anything can be done, it's just a matter of whether or not the old farts who have been in there way too long can be scared out of their britches.

Quote from: KenFSU on September 11, 2014, 01:38:09 PM
I hope the delay doesn't have anything to do with the City Council axing the mayor's capital improvement plan. I believe environmental remediation of the Shipyards site was a part of it.

It was a part of the CIP and I would imagine it being cut isn't speeding up the process.

Caught a glimpse of Khan's Shipyards plans, and I *think* I know what might be causing the delay...

(http://i.imgur.com/gTveQ7J.jpg)

Quote from: KenFSU on September 17, 2014, 11:56:13 AM
Caught a glimpse of Khan's Shipyards plans, and I *think* I know what might be causing the delay...

(http://i.imgur.com/gTveQ7J.jpg)

Damn Henne! Just screws everything up.  ;D

Quote from: duvaldude08 on September 17, 2014, 12:54:08 PM

Quote from: KenFSU on September 17, 2014, 11:56:13 AM
Caught a glimpse of Khan's Shipyards plans, and I *think* I know what might be causing the delay...

(http://i.imgur.com/gTveQ7J.jpg)

Damn Henne! Just screws everything up.  ;D

That must be a lightning rod on his head.

Quote from: KenFSU on September 17, 2014, 11:56:13 AM
Caught a glimpse of Khan's Shipyards plans, and I *think* I know what might be causing the delay...

You can't be serious.  One of (if not THE only) reasons he's leading the team is because, "...gets us in and out the huddle quickly" ~ G. Bradley

If they're huddled up about this project, Henne's the guy I want in there, too.  ;D

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on September 17, 2014, 05:28:06 PM

Quote from: KenFSU on September 17, 2014, 11:56:13 AM
Caught a glimpse of Khan's Shipyards plans, and I *think* I know what might be causing the delay...

You can't be serious.  One of (if not THE only) reasons he's leading the team is because, "...gets us in and out the huddle quickly" ~ G. Bradley

If they're huddled up about this project, Henne's the guy I want in there, too.  ;D

You're right!

I'm officially suggesting that Henne Tower® REMAIN in the final plans :D

QuoteLet's just hope these announcements don't turn out like the Laura Trio, Barnett, Artist studios across from the court house, etc. Khan seems to be a man of his word, but I feel like I'm getting jaded by all of these failed/delayed projects recently.

When someone high up says its "a process", you know you are being lied to....

Has anybody heard anything new about this? Specifically, any theories on the delay, and when we can expect to hear something? Mark Lamping was pretty insistent for months that they would present their concept by early September, but aside from his comments up at UNF about now having no timetable, it's pretty much been radio silence.

Pure speculation on my part but I've always thought something around the time of the London trip was far more likely, timing-wise. If you've paid attention to Shad and the linkages he's trying to make, that timing makes a certain amount of sense.

From the Jax Business Journal:

QuoteJags president: Khan close to presenting development plan for the Shipyards

Jacksonville Jaguars owner Shad Khan is close to presenting a plan for a mixed-used development at the city-owned riverfront Shipyards property, according to Jaguars President Mark Lamping.

The plan, which should be submitted to the city in coming months — hopefully no later than early next year, Lamping said — would have Khan be the master developer of the site. It would include a mix of housing, retail and restaurants and bars, a hotel and marina and "some sort of attraction."

"We believe it continues to play a very important role in our objective of assisting to bring more residents and more jobs to Downtown and to enhance the experience for everyone who visits the complex," Lamping said Wednesday.

The team has met with an "endless list of developers" to discuss the project over the past few years, Lamping said, but has not nailed down particular tenants or partners.

"We haven't finalized what those specific projects would be, but we do believe mixed use is the way to go," he said.

Khan's first plan for city leaders will not include extensive architectural drawings, but will provide specifics of the proposed development, Lamping said.

Some issues need to be dealt with before the plan could proceed. Among them...

Full Story: http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2014/10/29/jags-president-khan-close-to-presenting.html

I can't wait for the presentation.

I can't wait for the key elements to the Public Access components.

I think you're going to have to wait for the Jaguars to make the super bowl before this presentation materializes.

I doubt that.  There is no reason to be THAT cynical.  The presentation will happen, the Berkman will be completed, Rummell's thing across the river will materialize, and the Landing will fix itself.

Khan has stated that once a plan is in place, he wants this project to break ground quickly. If you look at his history, it's kind of his MO. I mean, look how quickly those scoreboards went from concept to execution. There's no reason to believe that Khan is pouring so much in the way of time and resources into the Shipyards to back out or let the project linger in the design stage for years. Khan's requests in the above article seem perfectly reasonable, and it's going to be up to the city to not drop the ball on their end. The biggest threat to the project would probably be another economic downturn, so it's up to the COJ to get the remediation taken care of, get the RFP out there quickly, etc.

And I love how it was made clear nothing will happen until the eyesore known as Berkman 2 is addressed.

That property is very. very polluted.

It will take months/years to remediate.

That is going to have to be addressed and will be very controversial regarding who pays for it.

Quote from: Intuition Ale Works on October 30, 2014, 12:59:40 PM

That property is very. very polluted.

I suppose that is why the Florida-Georgia Line concert is being held there tomorrow?

Quote from: spuwho on October 30, 2014, 09:02:34 PM

Quote from: Intuition Ale Works on October 30, 2014, 12:59:40 PM

That property is very. very polluted.

I suppose that is why the Florida-Georgia Line concert is being held there tomorrow?

Huh?  You do understand there's a difference between what happens at a construction site and what happens at a concert, right?

I love my City Jax, but there seems to be too much red tape when it comes to new projects, developments, etc., getting off the drawing boards, off the paper, and constructed and into fruition. I hope this comes off ground without a hitch, and I hope that City Governnment does not have their fart preventing fingers in you know where. Let her rip and let her blow!

I thought we were promised a 'big announcement' during the FL-GA game? WTF?

Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 01, 2014, 06:50:26 PM
I thought we were promised a 'big announcement' during the FL-GA game? WTF?

I didn't want to give it away but Mixed use seafood office
(http://www.curiositiesbydickens.com/wp-content/uploads/fisheries-building_2199261k.jpg)

Love it!

^^Looks like the one I hooked at One Spark.
I'm All In.

Quote from: Intuition Ale Works on October 30, 2014, 12:59:40 PM

That property is very. very polluted.

It will take months/years to remediate.

Is that a fact or a guess? 

Quote from: downtownbrown on November 03, 2014, 10:43:10 AM

Quote from: Intuition Ale Works on October 30, 2014, 12:59:40 PM

That property is very. very polluted.

It will take months/years to remediate.

Is that a fact or a guess?

From its past life as a shipyard for 100(ish?) years it's almost a guarantee.

Quote from: downtownbrown on November 03, 2014, 10:43:10 AM

Quote from: Intuition Ale Works on October 30, 2014, 12:59:40 PM

That property is very. very polluted.

It will take months/years to remediate.

Is that a fact or a guess?

It's a fact.

You could do a public records request to get the report the city did years ago. There is metal and diesel fuel in the soil and is going to cost a lot to remediate. It will be a big undertaking.

Quote from: Intuition Ale Works on November 03, 2014, 04:03:04 PM
It's a fact.

You could do a public records request to get the report the city did years ago. There is metal and diesel fuel in the soil and is going to cost a lot to remediate. It will be a big undertaking.

Has anyone ever put a dollar figure on it that anyone is aware of?

Khan said "We are getting closer" concerning the Shipyards proposals.

QuoteKhan spoke on multiple topics Saturday including the latest developments on The Shipyards.
"We are getting closer," said Khan.  "We are ready to have a proposal for the city.  My goal is once we get authorization from the city we want to have world class designers come up with proposals that will be iconic and really will reflect and set the image of Jacksonville for years and years to come."

http://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/news/jags-london-khan-talks-patience-jaguars-football-t/nh3td/#sthash.cbxAAkvN.dpuf

Anyone hear anything new on this by any chance?

Quote from: KenFSU on January 27, 2015, 08:51:36 AM
Anyone hear anything new on this by any chance?

No. I have my doubts that anything will ever get done with this property.

Quote from: KenFSU on January 27, 2015, 08:51:36 AM
Anyone hear anything new on this by any chance?

I think the timing of announcements may coincide with the election cycle....so stay tuned between February and May

Quote from: tufsu1 on January 27, 2015, 09:25:33 AM
....so stay tuned between February and May

I guess two years after the initial tease isn't too bad by Jacksonville standards.

Khan is going to scale up the Edgewood Bakery concept to make a nationwide cakes and dessert producer. Then build a skywalk between it and the coffee plant, and Jacksonville will become the Breakfast Capital of the World!
Also, there will be an aquarium that will have one large tank filled with salmon and one large kitchen for smoking the salmon.

^ even so, Khan should be embarrassed.  You can't promise an announcement at the beginning of the football season and then just simply take your ball and go home.  If the local media wasn't so cowed by power someone would attempt to hold the accountable to their word.  Lamping shows up in public often enough.  Why not ask him directly, "Why did you say an announcement would be last September and now refuse to give any update?  Isn't that misleading the public? Isn't that going back on your word?".

I hate to say it, because I invested in downtown, but I'm getting as jaded as many on this board.  Maybe the USS Adams guys can turn it around.

Quote from: downtownbrown on January 27, 2015, 09:47:27 AM
^ even so, Khan should be embarrassed.  You can't promise an announcement at the beginning of the football season and then just simply take your ball and go home.  If the local media wasn't so cowed by power someone would attempt to hold the accountable to their word.  Lamping shows up in public often enough.  Why not ask him directly, "Why did you say an announcement would be last September and now refuse to give any update?  Isn't that misleading the public? Isn't that going back on your word?".

I hate to say it, because I invested in downtown, but I'm getting as jaded as many on this board.  Maybe the USS Adams guys can turn it around.

Who should be embarrassed? Khan or the city that gets nearly nothing done?

^ In Khan's defense, Lamping has said all along that the Shipyards development will be contingent on 1) remediation, 2) something being done with Berkman 2, and 3) the extension of the Northbank Riverwalk. I'm not sensing a whole lot of urgency from the city in regards to remediation, and the city council didn't exact open the checkbook for capital improvement projects this year, so Khan's hands might be somewhat tied right now.

I think he just cant deal with all the the criticism he knows he will get from MJ expert posters.  It's ugly. It's uninspiring. It's. blah. Blah. Blah.  He owes us nothing. And can we just get the city to do remediation first??  Until that plan is developed by the city what is the point in his making his plans public. Perhaps when he made that statement he didn't think the city would continue to sits on its collective ass and do nothing towards remediation?!?

Quote from: edjax on January 27, 2015, 10:11:58 AM
I think he just cant deal with all the the criticism he knows he will get from MJ expert posters.

I'm sure that's it.   ::)

DTBrown...I've been following this board since it started and it's predecessor, the old MetJax board since the beginning. We have seen so many announcements, about so many projects that never made it off the drawing board, that I just don't get all that excited anymore. It that is a shame too.
Jaded, maybe. Until some dirt starts turning, I just will not get my hopes up. The excitement has been dashed way too many times. LOL

Quote from: stephendare on January 27, 2015, 12:38:14 PM

Quote from: KenFSU on January 27, 2015, 08:51:36 AM
Anyone hear anything new on this by any chance?

Last night, three separate people from the Mayor's team were saying that they are making the grand announcement either the first or second week of february.  Expect a lot of hoopla

It will be the FIRST week of February, Feb 2 to be exact, and the big announcement will be whether a certain rodent saw his shadow. 

Stephen, is it something other than the arrival of the USS Adams?

Oh, the timing.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_vRLCC17ppwo/TU8bemLbiUI/AAAAAAAAASg/L1gOZU-s_HY/s320/look_a_distraction_design_by_eecomics.jpg)

Quote from: pierre on January 27, 2015, 10:05:19 AM

Quote from: downtownbrown on January 27, 2015, 09:47:27 AM


Who should be embarrassed? Khan or the city that gets nearly nothing done?

There is plenty of room for everyone.  The Mayor and City Council have managed to do exactly nothing.

Quote from: KenFSU on January 27, 2015, 10:10:22 AM
^ In Khan's defense, Lamping has said all along that the Shipyards development will be contingent on 1) remediation, 2) something being done with Berkman 2, and 3) the extension of the Northbank Riverwalk. I'm not sensing a whole lot of urgency from the city in regards to remediation, and the city council didn't exact open the checkbook for capital improvement projects this year, so Khan's hands might be somewhat tied right now.

If that's the case, Lamping should say so.  He should say something like, "Here's what I want to do, but you have to do this first".  It's not that complicated. 

Haven't been able to keep up with the whole thread, so I apologize if this has been discussed already.

Can Rummell's Healthy Town and Khan's Shipyards succeed simultaneously? Or would two large scale developments completely oversaturate the downtown market and cause both to fail?

Its an interesting question to consider, when Rummell appears to have hitched his wagon to Curry and Khan to Brown. Will the election ultimately come down to Healthy Town vs. Shipyards moreso than the politicians themselves?

^ Absolutely think that this would be a case where if both came to fruition, the cumulative whole would be far greater than the sum of its parts.

P.S. Thanks for the info Stephen!

^^ I don't think either project has a one-phase approach or a "do it all now" timeline....so they can be phased to meet demand.

^ I agree.  Plus, Rummel's project seems almost entirely residential, whereas Khan's seems to be mostly entertainment.  I've heard people say that once Rummel's project is up, that whole area all the way to dt San Marco will be "the Buckhead of Jacksonville".  Makes sense to me.  The Shipyards, and all the way to the Elbow and Landing seems more NOLA to me.

Quote from: 02roadking on January 27, 2015, 10:24:55 AM
DTBrown...I've been following this board since it started and it's predecessor, the old MetJax board since the beginning. We have seen so many announcements, about so many projects that never made it off the drawing board, that I just don't get all that excited anymore. It that is a shame too.
Jaded, maybe. Until some dirt starts turning, I just will not get my hopes up. The excitement has been dashed way too many times. LOL

Experience gives you wisdom....I dont think you are jaded at all.

at least Stephen didn't say the announcement was coming 'shortly'....  ;)

@stephen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_burn_centers_in_the_United_States

LMAO on the last two comments. Nicely played!

^Hilarious! But, interesting rumors are going around.  It's coming, and it's coming "shortly". 

Quote from: downtownbrown on January 28, 2015, 09:06:24 AM
^Hilarious! But, interesting rumors are going around.  It's coming, and it's coming "shortly".

Since just rumors, care to share?

^ why not? First of all, not a rumor at all, CC passed the ordinance last night to fix the Liberty Street hole.  While this screws up our plans for a 3rd Anniversary Hole Party in April, it's a good thing.

Rumor #1: Since DIA turned down the developer's request for $5M to complete Berkman 2, all was thought to be lost.  Rumor has it that Khan's people are speaking to the owner and developer of the property.  I had hoped that Berkman 2 would be part of Khan's grand bargain, but it was just a hope.

Now it's just a rumor.

http://www.wokv.com/news/news/local/city-funds-fix-dangerous-downtown-hole/njyCp/

Must have gotten word about the Pothole Party we were planning. 

The Las Vegas version of our Berkman 2, the Gramercy is going to get imploded soon.

http://vegasinc.com/business/2015/jan/23/crumbling--strip-tower-las-vegas-scheduled-daytime/?_ga=1.91801818.1543470174.1405969353

I for one cant wait until an announcement is made because Im very interested in seeing the PARKING plans for the shipyards area.

news update

(http://i.imgur.com/XSdHic6.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/XlPXvEp.jpg)

Sounds pretty cool.

Home run.

Plans within 30 days, on the record.

Pretty exciting.

http://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/news/local/shad-khan-talks-shipyards-gus-bradley-and-2015-pla/njzz5/

Quote from: downtownbrown on January 30, 2015, 01:27:46 PM
Home run.

Wrong sport, I think you mean touchdown  ;D

"While the unveiling of the plan is days away, the building of the Shipyards area will be years in the making and will be privately funded by Khan."

Touchdown, home run, slam dunk, hole-in-one; it's all of these and more. The shameful bitching and moaning on this board about the city contributions for the scoreboards notwithstanding. This man is the real deal.

Go Jaguars !!!

Quote from: KenFSU on January 30, 2015, 01:50:54 PM
Plans within 30 days, on the record.

Pretty exciting.

And then we can start agonizing over the 2 years it will take the city to get their act together to remediate the land. 

This sounds a bit worrying. There's no mention of how much Khan will pay for the property, but lots of talk for how much we're expected to pay to clean up the site.

I hope the mayor isn't planning to just give millions of dollars worth of property to Khan, or worse, pay him to take it.

2014-560 CRA/DIA is the legislation that goes to the Jacksonville city council committee cycle the day after Super Bowl IXIX. This will not only impact the Shipyards property but also  the Landing and JEA property.

Quote from: Apache on January 30, 2015, 04:33:10 PM

Quote from: Tacachale on January 30, 2015, 03:56:06 PM
This sounds a bit worrying. There's no mention of how much Khan will pay for the property, but lots of talk for how much we're expected to pay to clean up the site.

I hope the mayor isn't planning to just give millions of dollars worth of property to Khan, or worse, pay him to take it.

I don't know if your worst case scenario is even that bad, that being if they gave it away to Khan. Really is that property an asset or a liability as it sits. It's been vacant/closed for what...25 years? It's contaminated. I think it's probably safe to say that the city will never do anything with it on it's own. The benefits to downtown and the city at large of what could be put there by Khan "could" certainly be tremendous. Property appraiser says it's worth 11mm (no way) last purchased 10 years (in the boom) for 7.5mm. Needs 1-3mm worth of remediation. So whats the true value? A couple million?? I don't know, just asking.

Does anyone at all, even those that see Shad Khan as a savior, "want" to give a billionaire a couple million dollars of property for free? Of course not. But if you did, I have all the confidence he would do something grand with it that would benefit the city. And, it's been shuttered for 25 years. Do you think there is a buyer with the ability to actually do something with it out there on the horizon anywhere in the next 10-15 years?  I don't.

I'd be surprised if it was given to him as his own property for scott free to do with as he pleases with no City input, but even so would that be that horrible?

Agree whole heartedly with you.  This vacant property to me is a huge embarrassment  and symbol of the ineptness of our city and its leaders for the past 15 years. It is time to move on and you are right that doubtful if anyone else would step forward in the next 10 years. Don't have to give it away, but certainly giving him a deal on it would get it back to being productive.  What other city 10 years after hosting one of the largest events such as the Super Bowl can still boast of acres and acres of vacant riverfront property on both sides of the river!!!!  Thankfully we are moving forward on one side, now lets quit ourmhandwringing and move on the other side!  Now is the time.  Well, 10 years ago was but we are on Jax time.

You guys are all going to be shocked that it's Seaglass Tower.

Giving away valuable property would be a bad mistake. Paying a billionaire to take away our property would be an tragedy of colossal proportions. Meaning, par for the course for Alvin Brown.

OMG!! If we wait for some developer to come along, buy the property and then spend hundreds of millions of their own money to develop it, that property will never get developed(IMO). In a perfect world that's what would be the best scenario but that's not how this is going to go down. Kahn just said on the CBS 47 news that he will release the plans within 30 days and that the project will be world class. A project that he will fully fund(with the exception of the clean up). I for one cant wait to see what he has in plans for this site. Imagine Bay St from the sports complex to DT in 5 years with the Aquarium, Naval Ship Museum and the Shipyards! Super excited!!

But the city didnt approve small projects (like Intuition) on the Shipyards property because they wanted to hold out for something bigger, presumably to get more bang for the buck. Why wait all this time just to then give it to someone for free?

Obviously many of us think it was a mistake not to let smaller projects use the land and get the ball rolling, but putting that behind us let's make sure we do the right thing for the city. That means getting as much value out of the transaction (in tax and possible sale) as well as making sure the waterfront uses benefit the citizens as much as they can.

Given the state of our current leadership, the land is worth nothing sitting as a dirt pile.  (excluding Lori Boyer:)  At this time, this city's DT is a bad investment for developers.  If I was a real estate tycoon, Jacksonville (at least in-town) Jax would be the last of my priorities.  I mean Austin has been working on it's image for 30 years.  We are not even on year 1 yet.   I cannot see our perception changing unless we can get important projects like the Trio moving/ and willing to invest in such projects.  The city does not seem like they are interested in supporting such endeavors.  If we cannot get connectivity, then this project means nothing as a pile of dirt or an entertainment venue. 

Give him the land and lets move on. 

Well unless we never thought our night in shining armor was going to be a slick business man.   ::)

Maybe I missed it, but will the development be more than a "covered practice facility"?  While I suppose that's better than empty land, I don't see how it adds much in the way of urban vibrancy to the area.

Quote from: Tacachale on January 30, 2015, 03:56:06 PM
This sounds a bit worrying. There's no mention of how much Khan will pay for the property, but lots of talk for how much we're expected to pay to clean up the site.

I hope the mayor isn't planning to just give millions of dollars worth of property to Khan, or worse, pay him to take it.

that was the original request

Since the shipyard company doesn't exist anymore, and the City owns the property - it is the City's responsibility to clean up the site.

Quote from: Tacachale on January 30, 2015, 04:58:05 PM
Giving away valuable property would be a bad mistake. Paying a billionaire to take away our property would be an tragedy of colossal proportions. Meaning, par for the course for Alvin Brown.

Come on now. Not all Brown and the Shipyards debacle. Who oversaw the TriLegacy debacle?

It's city property, and if we wait for someone to come around who's willing to pay for remediating our toxic dump, the Shipyards will remain vacant for another 25 years. And, even though I normally wouldn't say this, if Khan is willing to develop the property, let him have it for free. Hell, pay him within reason to develop it, if that's what it takes.

For a variety of reasons, including:

1) We keep hearing how valuable this polluted waterfront property is, yet no one else has expressed interest in developing it, aside from the pie-in-the-sky Sea Glass Tower group who quietly backed away from the project last year. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

2) Shad Khan and Mark Lamping have proved beyond a doubt with the stadium renovations that they have the ability to quickly turn the pedestrian into something absolutely world class. In one year, Khan transformed Everbank Field from an aging NFL stadium into one of the great places in the world to watch a sporting event. Fans voted it best game-day experience in the league. Bloomberg gushed about it. CNN and the New York Times gushed about it. Can you imagine what they would be able to do with a blank canvas?

3) There isn't exactly a waiting list of the world's richest men knocking down the door to invest in Jacksonville. Squabbling over whatever few million dollars the Shipyards property might be worth while what could up being a half billion dollar investment hangs in the balance is penny wise and pound foolish. Such short-sightedness almost cost Jacksonville our NFL expansion team in the early 90s before Delaney stepped in and mediated a deal between Touchdown Jacksonville and the city. If Khan is serious about privately funding most of the development, for the love of God step aside and do everything you can within reason to make it happen. You don't see Detroit snubbing their nose at Dan Gilbert's money, do you?

4) Who do you trust to do the property justice? Seriously, think about it. On one side, you have a businessman so savvy that he closes down bakeries and cuts funding to a startup incubator when he senses incompetence or a lack of ROI, backed up by Mark Lamping, who oversaw the $1 billion construction of Metlife Stadium. On the other side, you have a city government that can't even fix a pothole. How'd the courthouse work out? Or that parking garage for the Landing? Compare that to Everbank Field renovations. With Khan overseeing the project, you'll get twice the bang for half the bucks in a tenth the time as if the city ever got around to developing the property themselves. Even if the city pays Khan to take the Shipyards, the material cost of doing something is still less than the opportunity cost of doing nothing.

5) The Jaguars are arguably Jacksonville's single biggest economic asset. For better or worse, without the NFL, Jacksonville is just another mid-sized city. The Jaguars drive jobs, drive tourism, bring new businesses to town. Without the NFL, the Florida-Georgia game would have been gone years ago, as we never would have been able to justify investing the money to keep our stadium competitive. The Jaguars lease at Everbank Field is going to sneak up on us quicker than we realize, and when that day comes, it would certainly be a lot harder for Shad Khan to pack up the Jaguars and move them elsewhere if he has a strong foothold in this community.

6) From my understanding of some of the reports coming out today, the Shipyards property will, in some small part, tie-in with the Jaguars ongoing partnership with London. If the development of the Shipyards increases tourism from and continued partnership with London, that's a big win for the city.

7) A world-class development at the Shipyards will yield priceless positive externalities for adjacent properties. Berkman II. The USS Adams. Healthy Town. Intuition. The Jacksonville Suns. The Jaguars. The Armada. The Sharks. Metropolitan Park. The Riverwalk. You can't underestimate how much stronger the attraction to that area of downtown will be if there are more options pre-and-post game.

I know others might disagree, but I truly feel that Shad Khan has bent over backwards to demonstrate good will to Jacksonville. I really can't comprehend how there are still so many doubters. I don't think people understand how lucky we are and how important it is to not mess this relationship up, and how patient he has been every time he's been raked through the coals by locals for making sound business decisions.

By a stroke of luck (Shad Khan losing his bid to buy the Rams from Stan Kroenke at the last minute in 2010), we had one of the wealthiest men in the world -- a guy who makes Donald Trump look poor in comparison -- fall into our lap. He could pay out the remaining years on the lease and any subsequent penalties and legal fees and move the team elsewhere without breaking a sweat, but he embraces Jacksonville. He spent more money on the fan experience in two years than Wayne Weaver had in the past decade, and forged a sister-city relationship with London, which Forbes and Bloomberg just named the most financially influential city in the world.

This is a once a century opportunity that we're staring at.

Within reason, I think we need to do everything we possibly can to embrace the guy, help him help Jacksonville, and just hang on and enjoy the ride.

Can't wait to see the plans within 30 days, and I pray that we don't let short-sightedness keep this project from happening before the economy takes its next turn for the worse.

^Agree 100%.

I hope there a couple mid-rises in the plan; 15-30 story towers.

The Shipyards is worth $30 million, and that number will increase with the improving economy. When our city is at a point that we can't maintain cut our grass, fix our potholes, or keep an adequate number of police officers, are we really prepared to give a billionaire another $30 million gift? Or pay him to take it?

Look, I like Khan, he's been great for the Jags and for the city. But the city and the Mayor need to show some negotiation ability. They can't just keep writing Khan checks with taxpayer money.

I can't believe people in this city are still bent out of shape about Khan and the shipyards site. KenFSU you make very valid points above and I agree whole heartedly that if it takes gifting Khan the property then that's the best move the city could make. I don't know if people understand or overlook the fact that the site will be PRIVATELY FUNDED! FULLY PRIVATELY FUNDED. The city won't have to contribute a DIME of your taxpayer dollars and will reap the tax, financial, and image lifting benefits of such a world class development.  I mean when was the last time a billionaire rolled in town and offered to throw our city on his/her shoulders, offering to change the perception of the town by developing a toxic waste of space while asking for ZERO dollars in incentives. I mean we cant even get a Jimmy Johns subs to open up shop downtown without asking for dollars which could hv been dispersed to local upstart businesses. Sure the city has to pay for Cleanup but guess what..the city owns it currently and are responsible for it. What some of you believe we have to gain by sitting on the property and begging someone to come in and save us I don't know. There's definitely more to lose if we don't jump on this train while it's here. Yapping about potholes, libraries, police funding etc. shouldn't even be brought up in this discussion because the money from the sale of the shipyards wouldnt help a city hand- cuffed by its own self imposed ridiculously low tax rates! People complain about wanting nicer things but don't want to pay for it. This is worth the price of paying. Give the man the land and let the Cowford residents continue to sulk about scoreboards while the rest of us Jacksonvillians bask in the glory of a reenergized downtown.

Quote from: finehoe on January 30, 2015, 07:37:52 PM
Maybe I missed it, but will the development be more than a "covered practice facility"?  While I suppose that's better than empty land, I don't see how it adds much in the way of urban vibrancy to the area.

From everything I have heard and read, the covered practice facility will just be a part of it.

Quote from: Tacachale on January 31, 2015, 12:12:01 AM
The Shipyards is worth $30 million, and that number will increase with the improving economy. When our city is at a point that we can't maintain cut our grass, fix our potholes, or keep an adequate number of police officers, are we really prepared to give a billionaire another $30 million gift? Or pay him to take it?

Look, I like Khan, he's been great for the Jags and for the city. But the city and the Mayor need to show some negotiation ability. They can't just keep writing Khan checks with taxpayer money.

it's worth what someone is willing to pay.  Giving it away is the equivalent of a long term lease, since the city will benefit from the increased tax revenue, and the attraction of more investment and more revenue. 

Quote from: Tacachale on January 31, 2015, 12:12:01 AM
The Shipyards is worth $30 million, and that number will increase with the improving economy. When our city is at a point that we can't maintain cut our grass, fix our potholes, or keep an adequate number of police officers, are we really prepared to give a billionaire another $30 million gift? Or pay him to take it?

Look, I like Khan, he's been great for the Jags and for the city. But the city and the Mayor need to show some negotiation ability. They can't just keep writing Khan checks with taxpayer money.

I believe Anything Brown may agree to would have to then be approved by the City Council, correct?

Quote from: Apache on January 31, 2015, 11:32:23 AM

Quote from: Tacachale on January 31, 2015, 12:12:01 AM
The Shipyards is worth $30 million, and that number will increase with the improving economy. When our city is at a point that we can't maintain cut our grass, fix our potholes, or keep an adequate number of police officers, are we really prepared to give a billionaire another $30 million gift? Or pay him to take it?

Look, I like Khan, he's been great for the Jags and for the city. But the city and the Mayor need to show some negotiation ability. They can't just keep writing Khan checks with taxpayer money.

Honest question Tacachale, what gets you to a number of $30mm?
The last sale was almost at the exact peak of the real estate boom market for $7.2mm. It certainly hasn't increased in value 4 fold in that time.
That 7.2mm number is just from the property appraiser, I do not know if that was the full actual sales price, or other factors that may be involved. But my opinion is that if we are holding out for 30mm then the city will still own that property when we are all dead. 

Someone on here must be in commercial real estate or development to opine on it. Where is Simms when you need him.

The property appraiser assessed the Shipyards at $28.6 million as of a few months ago. It's true any property is really only worth what someone will buy it for, but that tells us nothing here, as the city has made no real effort to do anything with the property the entire time Brown has been in office.

Quote from: Tacachale on January 31, 2015, 12:14:57 PM

The property appraiser assessed the Shipyards at $28.6 million as of a few months ago. It's true any property is really only worth what someone will buy it for, but that tells us nothing here, as the city has made no real effort to do anything with the property the entire time Brown has been in office.

Follow up question:  Has Brown's lack of doing anything to the property cost the city, advanced the city or neither?

Obviously, there's much pollution remediation that has to take place before anything viable can be done.  We've already thrown how many millions down the drain trying to woo in private development?  In the grand scheme of things, it is in the city's best interest to clean the property and allow someone to develop it.

Why not allow a person with not only  the financial resources, but a legitimate motivation to develop it now?  And it's not just Khan.  As Ken said above, Khan is the guy with the money and vision;  he hired a guy in Lamping, with the proven track record of developing just this sort of project.  It's all stadium improvements.  It's all an attempt to drive revenue at the stadium.  If it happens to become a destination, great.  Then people will want to flock to the area and the other developers waiting in the wings will jump on the bandwagon.

If I had a couple hundred thousand laying around, I'd be purchasing property now in the Talleyrand area.

Quote from: stephendare on January 31, 2015, 11:51:44 AM

Quote from: Tacachale on January 31, 2015, 12:12:01 AM
Look, I like Khan, he's been great for the Jags and for the city. But the city and the Mayor need to show some negotiation ability. They can't just keep writing Khan checks with taxpayer money.

On this we totally agree, Tacachale.
Why is the city forking over millions to this guy but complaining that we can't pay our cops or afford to build a transportation system thats worth a damn?

Damn, Stephen. Damn, Tacachale. Negotiating ability? Are y'all for real !?! Nativistic much ? ? ? The negotiations with Shad Khan have demonstrated some of the best, forward-thinking negotiating instincts from Jax city officials ever. Y'all are beginning to sound like the fools way back when who insisted we didn't need the University of North Florida because J.U was sufficient locally and UF was close enough!

Quote from: Marle Brando on January 31, 2015, 08:50:35 AM
I can't believe people in this city are still bent out of shape about Khan and the shipyards site. KenFSU you make very valid points above and I agree whole heartedly that if it takes gifting Khan the property then that's the best move the city could make. I don't know if people understand or overlook the fact that the site will be PRIVATELY FUNDED! FULLY PRIVATELY FUNDED. The city won't have to contribute a DIME of your taxpayer dollars and will reap the tax, financial, and image lifting benefits of such a world class development.  I mean when was the last time a billionaire rolled in town and offered to throw our city on his/her shoulders, offering to change the perception of the town by developing a toxic waste of space while asking for ZERO dollars in incentives. I mean we cant even get a Jimmy Johns subs to open up shop downtown without asking for dollars which could hv been dispersed to local upstart businesses. Sure the city has to pay for Cleanup but guess what..the city owns it currently and are responsible for it. What some of you believe we have to gain by sitting on the property and begging someone to come in and save us I don't know. There's definitely more to lose if we don't jump on this train while it's here. Yapping about potholes, libraries, police funding etc. shouldn't even be brought up in this discussion because the money from the sale of the shipyards wouldnt help a city hand- cuffed by its own self imposed ridiculously low tax rates! People complain about wanting nicer things but don't want to pay for it. This is worth the price of paying. Give the man the land and let the Cowford residents continue to sulk about scoreboards while the rest of us Jacksonvillians bask in the glory of a reenergized downtown.

+100

Quote from: stephendare on January 31, 2015, 11:51:44 AM

Quote from: Tacachale on January 31, 2015, 12:12:01 AM
The Shipyards is worth $30 million, and that number will increase with the improving economy. When our city is at a point that we can't maintain cut our grass, fix our potholes, or keep an adequate number of police officers, are we really prepared to give a billionaire another $30 million gift? Or pay him to take it?

Look, I like Khan, he's been great for the Jags and for the city. But the city and the Mayor need to show some negotiation ability. They can't just keep writing Khan checks with taxpayer money.

On this we totally agree, Tacachale.
Why is the city forking over millions to this guy but complaining that we can't pay our cops or afford to build a transportation system thats worth a damn?

Now where is this invisible money coming from? Where is it stated that the city is PAYING Khan to develop the property? Paying for the cleanup is not equivalent to cash given to develop property, that is called business. This is an appropriate business transaction appropriate to this particular parcel and circumstances, not all. Are we so caught up in ourselves that we should expect someone to pay for the land and cleanup and development of the land and construction of the buildings and attractions without ANYTHING in return?? Gifting Khan the land is the LEAST the city could do and the MOST it could reap simultaneously  plain and simple. He has financed the Laura Trio, went more than half with the city on TOTAL recent upgrades to our (city stadium in which he DOES NOT OWN) now world class stadium and now some of you want to sell salt to a slug. Face it nobody wants the property but Khan. No one will develop it privately but Khan. No one has shown his dedication to fast tracking ideas and results and delivers better than Khan recently. It's never good to allow personal feelings to override common sense. I get the sense that some here don't know when to remove the political cap and wear the thinking one sometimes. We are not LA, NY, Miami, or even Charlotte. We are not world class yet. We ARE the city 10yrs ago that was ridiculed and exposed for what it lacks during super bowl. Let's face it, we are not the hottest date at senior prom. In fact, we don't even have a date to prom. But there's this swagged out guy in algebra class 3rd period that thinks we're hot and is actively courting us. Let's give it a shot guys is all I'm saying, this one looks like a keeper ::)

Quote from: Marle Brando on January 31, 2015, 09:40:37 PM

Quote from: stephendare on January 31, 2015, 11:51:44 AM

Quote from: Tacachale on January 31, 2015, 12:12:01 AM
The Shipyards is worth $30 million, and that number will increase with the improving economy. When our city is at a point that we can't maintain cut our grass, fix our potholes, or keep an adequate number of police officers, are we really prepared to give a billionaire another $30 million gift? Or pay him to take it?

Look, I like Khan, he's been great for the Jags and for the city. But the city and the Mayor need to show some negotiation ability. They can't just keep writing Khan checks with taxpayer money.

On this we totally agree, Tacachale.
Why is the city forking over millions to this guy but complaining that we can't pay our cops or afford to build a transportation system thats worth a damn?

Now where is this invisible money coming from? Where is it stated that the city is PAYING Khan to develop the property? Paying for the cleanup is not equivalent to cash given to develop property, that is called business. This is an appropriate business transaction appropriate to this particular parcel and circumstances, not all. Are we so caught up in ourselves that we should expect someone to pay for the land and cleanup and development of the land and construction of the buildings and attractions without ANYTHING in return?? Gifting Khan the land is the LEAST the city could do and the MOST it could reap simultaneously  plain and simple. He has financed the Laura Trio, went more than half with the city on TOTAL recent upgrades to our (city stadium in which he DOES NOT OWN) now world class stadium and now some of you want to sell salt to a slug. Face it nobody wants the property but Khan. No one will develop it privately but Khan. No one has shown his dedication to fast tracking ideas and results and delivers better than Khan recently. It's never good to allow personal feelings to override common sense. I get the sense that some here don't know when to remove the political cap and wear the thinking one sometimes. We are not LA, NY, Miami, or even Charlotte. We are not world class yet. We ARE the city 10yrs ago that was ridiculed and exposed for what it lacks during super bowl. Let's face it, we are not the hottest date at senior prom. In fact, we don't even have a date to prom. But there's this swagged out guy in algebra class 3rd period that thinks we're hot and is actively courting us. Let's give it a shot guys is all I'm saying, this one looks like a keeper ::)

+10000000

QuoteWhere is it stated that the city is PAYING Khan to develop the property?

It has not been made public what the City's deal is yet (that will happen in two weeks), but they initially asked the city to pay for remediation (reasonable), pay for a Riverwalk extension (reasonable) and give them the land for free (not reasonable). In addition to COJ paying for site cleanup and public access (aka, the Riverwalk), we the taxpayers are still paying interest on bond debt related to the Shipyards property from previous failed redevelopment efforts (there have been three so far).

COJ has yet to put an RFP out nationally for the site. Meaning they haven't marketed the site for sale to anyone else. The only other person that asked was Intuition Ale Works (for a small portion of the very large overall site).. who were shot down.

Quote from: fieldafm on February 01, 2015, 08:47:23 AM

QuoteWhere is it stated that the city is PAYING Khan to develop the property?

It has not been made public what the City's deal is yet (that will happen in two weeks), but they initially asked the city to pay for remediation (reasonable), pay for a Riverwalk extension (reasonable) and give them the land for free (not reasonable). In addition to COJ paying for site cleanup and public access (aka, the Riverwalk), we the taxpayers are still paying interest on bond debt related to the Shipyards property from previous failed redevelopment efforts (there have been three so far).

COJ has yet to put an RFP out nationally for the site

The city is and has been relieved of the bond debt since 2005 when Landmar agreed to take over the bond payments the city incurred from the failed Trilegacy deal. LandMar made 20mil in improvements to the land and paid 13.8mil towards the city bond debt. In 2009 LandMar declared bankruptcy and subsequently the land valued at 20mil in 09' was reverted back to the city. You see, LandMar was responsible for the bond debt after the deal was signed, not COJ. After bankruptcy court and five years worth of legal wrangling, the debt was settled and the city received an award of 13.4 million for its investment in the failed development. Why was this 13.4 million not used towards a bond payment of any sort when awarded and put into a special account? Because no bond is owed. That issue was dissolved along with other obligations during LandMar's bankruptcy.
And LOL at RFP. Really RFP?? Good luck WANTING for a sweeter deal, free of city required incentives. In 2001 the city approved 37mil in incentives to Trilegacy, and approved another 3mil towards public improvements when it signed the deal with LandMar. So let's SELL the land to a new developer, PAY for cleanup, AND THEN be on tap for more incentives I'm sure the new developer will in turn ask for. THAT would require another bond backed debt on the city's books. So what exactly is the gain in waiting for someone to buy the property, losing tax dollars that would be generated in the meantime, only to turn around and pay out incentives to another unknown entity. Khan has a proven track record of getting things done. IF in the event Khan fails to lay a single brick on site, the city would have lost nothing. We have everything to gain by doing the smart deal and signing over the land.

Quote from: copperfiend on January 31, 2015, 09:06:34 AM

Quote from: finehoe on January 30, 2015, 07:37:52 PM
Maybe I missed it, but will the development be more than a "covered practice facility"?  While I suppose that's better than empty land, I don't see how it adds much in the way of urban vibrancy to the area.

From everything I have heard and read, the covered practice facility will just be a part of it.

So what does the rest of it consist of?  Seems to me that information needs to be shared before we start talking about price tags and possible subsidies.

Quote from: finehoe on February 01, 2015, 10:58:49 AM

Quote from: copperfiend on January 31, 2015, 09:06:34 AM

Quote from: finehoe on January 30, 2015, 07:37:52 PM
Maybe I missed it, but will the development be more than a "covered practice facility"?  While I suppose that's better than empty land, I don't see how it adds much in the way of urban vibrancy to the area.

From everything I have heard and read, the covered practice facility will just be a part of it.

So what does the rest of it consist of?  Seems to me that information needs to be shared before we start talking about price tags and possible subsidies.

Well just maybe that is what will be shared when they unveil their plans. Seems to make sense to me.

Quote from: finehoe on January 30, 2015, 07:37:52 PM
Maybe I missed it, but will the development be more than a "covered practice facility"?  While I suppose that's better than empty land, I don't see how it adds much in the way of urban vibrancy to the area.

The covered practice facility will be part of a much larger development.

Whenever Lamping discusses the potential development, he always puts a heavy emphasis on mixed-use.

Based on what he's said in the past, I think we can expect to see:

1) Residential
2) Retail
3) Dining/Nightlife
4) A hotel
5) A marina
6) A covered practice field
7) The incorporation of the USS Adams
8 ) Some sort of a signature "attraction."
9) Public, riverfront space

Jax Business Journal:

QuoteJacksonville Jaguars owner Shad Khan is close to presenting a plan for a mixed-used development at the city-owned riverfront Shipyards property, according to Jaguars President Mark Lamping.

The plan, which should be submitted to the city in coming months — hopefully no later than early next year, Lamping said — would have Khan be the master developer of the site. It would include a mix of housing, retail and restaurants and bars, a hotel and marina and "some sort of attraction."

"We believe it continues to play a very important role in our objective of assisting to bring more residents and more jobs to Downtown and to enhance the experience for everyone who visits the complex," Lamping said Wednesday.

Jax Daily Record:

QuoteThe Jaguars envision plans to redevelop the vacant 40-acre Northbank Riverfront property as a mixed-use housing and retail project to include public space, entertainment and tourist attractions. The property is owned by the city.

Lamping said in July the mixed-use development would be designed to support people living Downtown, working Downtown and visiting Downtown, "and doing it in a way that provides great support to the sports complex."

The Shipyards property is near EverBank Field, the home of the Jaguars, and Khan has expressed a need to act quickly on the development.

Pending due diligence and resolution of environmental issues on the property, which housed a working shipyards until it closed in 1992, the Jaguars expect to make the proposal.

The city Procurement Division issued a Request for Proposals for environmental consulting, testing and operations and maintenance services for the Jacksonville Shipyards.

Proposals were due Aug. 20 but that has been tentatively extended to Sept. 24.

Lamping said Wednesday the delay in the proposal due date has no impact on the due diligence.

He said in June if the Jaguars pursued development, they envision serving as the master developer for a project to include rental apartments, entertainment, retail and a marina.

It would include a park-like setting that includes a multipurpose facility that could be used by the Jaguars or, for example, visiting teams to the TaxSlayer Bowl that need a practice facility.

^See, it really is that simple.

Quote from: KenFSU on February 01, 2015, 02:38:15 PM
Based on what he's said in the past, I think we can expect to see:

1) Residential
2) Retail
3) Dining/Nightlife
4) A hotel
5) A marina
6) A covered practice field
7) The incorporation of the USS Adams
8 ) Some sort of a signature "attraction."
9) Public, riverfront space

Thanks!

Quote from: KenFSU on January 30, 2015, 11:00:50 PM
It's city property, and if we wait for someone to come around who's willing to pay for remediating our toxic dump, the Shipyards will remain vacant for another 25 years. And, even though I normally wouldn't say this, if Khan is willing to develop the property, let him have it for free. Hell, pay him within reason to develop it, if that's what it takes.

For a variety of reasons, including:

1) We keep hearing how valuable this polluted waterfront property is, yet no one else has expressed interest in developing it, aside from the pie-in-the-sky Sea Glass Tower group who quietly backed away from the project last year. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

2) Shad Khan and Mark Lamping have proved beyond a doubt with the stadium renovations that they have the ability to quickly turn the pedestrian into something absolutely world class. In one year, Khan transformed Everbank Field from an aging NFL stadium into one of the great places in the world to watch a sporting event. Fans voted it best game-day experience in the league. Bloomberg gushed about it. CNN and the New York Times gushed about it. Can you imagine what they would be able to do with a blank canvas?

3) There isn't exactly a waiting list of the world's richest men knocking down the door to invest in Jacksonville. Squabbling over whatever few million dollars the Shipyards property might be worth while what could up being a half billion dollar investment hangs in the balance is penny wise and pound foolish. Such short-sightedness almost cost Jacksonville our NFL expansion team in the early 90s before Delaney stepped in and mediated a deal between Touchdown Jacksonville and the city. If Khan is serious about privately funding most of the development, for the love of God step aside and do everything you can within reason to make it happen. You don't see Detroit snubbing their nose at Dan Gilbert's money, do you?

4) Who do you trust to do the property justice? Seriously, think about it. On one side, you have a businessman so savvy that he closes down bakeries and cuts funding to a startup incubator when he senses incompetence or a lack of ROI, backed up by Mark Lamping, who oversaw the $1 billion construction of Metlife Stadium. On the other side, you have a city government that can't even fix a pothole. How'd the courthouse work out? Or that parking garage for the Landing? Compare that to Everbank Field renovations. With Khan overseeing the project, you'll get twice the bang for half the bucks in a tenth the time as if the city ever got around to developing the property themselves. Even if the city pays Khan to take the Shipyards, the material cost of doing something is still less than the opportunity cost of doing nothing.

5) The Jaguars are arguably Jacksonville's single biggest economic asset. For better or worse, without the NFL, Jacksonville is just another mid-sized city. The Jaguars drive jobs, drive tourism, bring new businesses to town. Without the NFL, the Florida-Georgia game would have been gone years ago, as we never would have been able to justify investing the money to keep our stadium competitive. The Jaguars lease at Everbank Field is going to sneak up on us quicker than we realize, and when that day comes, it would certainly be a lot harder for Shad Khan to pack up the Jaguars and move them elsewhere if he has a strong foothold in this community.

6) From my understanding of some of the reports coming out today, the Shipyards property will, in some small part, tie-in with the Jaguars ongoing partnership with London. If the development of the Shipyards increases tourism from and continued partnership with London, that's a big win for the city.

7) A world-class development at the Shipyards will yield priceless positive externalities for adjacent properties. Berkman II. The USS Adams. Healthy Town. Intuition. The Jacksonville Suns. The Jaguars. The Armada. The Sharks. Metropolitan Park. The Riverwalk. You can't underestimate how much stronger the attraction to that area of downtown will be if there are more options pre-and-post game.

I know others might disagree, but I truly feel that Shad Khan has bent over backwards to demonstrate good will to Jacksonville. I really can't comprehend how there are still so many doubters. I don't think people understand how lucky we are and how important it is to not mess this relationship up, and how patient he has been every time he's been raked through the coals by locals for making sound business decisions.

By a stroke of luck (Shad Khan losing his bid to buy the Rams from Stan Kroenke at the last minute in 2010), we had one of the wealthiest men in the world -- a guy who makes Donald Trump look poor in comparison -- fall into our lap. He could pay out the remaining years on the lease and any subsequent penalties and legal fees and move the team elsewhere without breaking a sweat, but he embraces Jacksonville. He spent more money on the fan experience in two years than Wayne Weaver had in the past decade, and forged a sister-city relationship with London, which Forbes and Bloomberg just named the most financially influential city in the world.

This is a once a century opportunity that we're staring at.

Within reason, I think we need to do everything we possibly can to embrace the guy, help him help Jacksonville, and just hang on and enjoy the ride.

Can't wait to see the plans within 30 days, and I pray that we don't let short-sightedness keep this project from happening before the economy takes its next turn for the worse.

Well said, well put, and well written Ken. I agree wholeheartedly with ALL that you have said. I was thinking the same thing, but just couldn't put it into words as eloquently and "well put together" as you did. Bravo Zulu, and "hats off" to ye Ken. ("Heights")

Quote from: iMarvin on January 30, 2015, 11:42:03 PM
^Agree 100%.

I hope there a couple mid-rises in the plan; 15-30 story towers.

15-30 stories? Let's go whole hog; if the vacancy rate justifies it, how about 30 to 50 stories. (Heights)

Quote from: Marle Brando on January 31, 2015, 08:50:35 AM
I can't believe people in this city are still bent out of shape about Khan and the shipyards site. KenFSU you make very valid points above and I agree whole heartedly that if it takes gifting Khan the property then that's the best move the city could make. I don't know if people understand or overlook the fact that the site will be PRIVATELY FUNDED! FULLY PRIVATELY FUNDED. The city won't have to contribute a DIME of your taxpayer dollars and will reap the tax, financial, and image lifting benefits of such a world class development.  I mean when was the last time a billionaire rolled in town and offered to throw our city on his/her shoulders, offering to change the perception of the town by developing a toxic waste of space while asking for ZERO dollars in incentives. I mean we cant even get a Jimmy Johns subs to open up shop downtown without asking for dollars which could hv been dispersed to local upstart businesses. Sure the city has to pay for Cleanup but guess what..the city owns it currently and are responsible for it. What some of you believe we have to gain by sitting on the property and begging someone to come in and save us I don't know. There's definitely more to lose if we don't jump on this train while it's here. Yapping about potholes, libraries, police funding etc. shouldn't even be brought up in this discussion because the money from the sale of the shipyards wouldnt help a city hand- cuffed by its own self imposed ridiculously low tax rates! People complain about wanting nicer things but don't want to pay for it. This is worth the price of paying. Give the man the land and let the Cowford residents continue to sulk about scoreboards while the rest of us Jacksonvillians bask in the glory of a reenergized downtown.

Bravo Marle, Bravo! Sounds like you and Ken have been talking on the phone. I agree whole heartedly my friend. Give the Man the Land; it'll just sit forever, long after we're dead, if we wait on the City or someone else to come along and develop it. Jax doesn't have that type of image or prowess just yet...so give the Land to Shad. (Heights)

Quote from: Marle Brando on January 31, 2015, 09:40:37 PM

Quote from: stephendare on January 31, 2015, 11:51:44 AM

Quote from: Tacachale on January 31, 2015, 12:12:01 AM
The Shipyards is worth $30 million, and that number will increase with the improving economy. When our city is at a point that we can't maintain cut our grass, fix our potholes, or keep an adequate number of police officers, are we really prepared to give a billionaire another $30 million gift? Or pay him to take it?

Look, I like Khan, he's been great for the Jags and for the city. But the city and the Mayor need to show some negotiation ability. They can't just keep writing Khan checks with taxpayer money.

On this we totally agree, Tacachale.
Why is the city forking over millions to this guy but complaining that we can't pay our cops or afford to build a transportation system thats worth a damn?

Now where is this invisible money coming from? Where is it stated that the city is PAYING Khan to develop the property? Paying for the cleanup is not equivalent to cash given to develop property, that is called business. This is an appropriate business transaction appropriate to this particular parcel and circumstances, not all. Are we so caught up in ourselves that we should expect someone to pay for the land and cleanup and development of the land and construction of the buildings and attractions without ANYTHING in return?? Gifting Khan the land is the LEAST the city could do and the MOST it could reap simultaneously  plain and simple. He has financed the Laura Trio, went more than half with the city on TOTAL recent upgrades to our (city stadium in which he DOES NOT OWN) now world class stadium and now some of you want to sell salt to a slug. Face it nobody wants the property but Khan. No one will develop it privately but Khan. No one has shown his dedication to fast tracking ideas and results and delivers better than Khan recently. It's never good to allow personal feelings to override common sense. I get the sense that some here don't know when to remove the political cap and wear the thinking one sometimes. We are not LA, NY, Miami, or even Charlotte. We are not world class yet. We ARE the city 10yrs ago that was ridiculed and exposed for what it lacks during super bowl. Let's face it, we are not the hottest date at senior prom. In fact, we don't even have a date to prom. But there's this swagged out guy in algebra class 3rd period that thinks we're hot and is actively courting us. Let's give it a shot guys is all I'm saying, this one looks like a keeper ::)

Give it to em Marle; YOU...ARE...THE...BEST! Obviously you've got your thinking cap on, are calling it as you see it and exactly as it appears, and it seems most Jaxsons are acting like those guys who are now dead who were once called, "the good ole boys network." Come on guys, you know that Khan has VISION and He also is courting this city and showing that he not only cares for our downtown, but Jacksonville as a whole. DON'T PISS THIS GUY OFF!!! He could move the Jags, whenever and wherever He wants, at a moments notice and without an eye's twitch, to a REAL WORLD CLASS CITY IN OUR NATION; so give Him a chance, and let's see what He will do. If it's anything near what He did for the stadium, or everything else He's done for this City since taking over the Jaquars, we are in for a very smooth ride! (Heights)

Quote from: Marle Brando on February 01, 2015, 10:34:39 AM

Quote from: fieldafm on February 01, 2015, 08:47:23 AM

QuoteWhere is it stated that the city is PAYING Khan to develop the property?

It has not been made public what the City's deal is yet (that will happen in two weeks), but they initially asked the city to pay for remediation (reasonable), pay for a Riverwalk extension (reasonable) and give them the land for free (not reasonable). In addition to COJ paying for site cleanup and public access (aka, the Riverwalk), we the taxpayers are still paying interest on bond debt related to the Shipyards property from previous failed redevelopment efforts (there have been three so far).

COJ has yet to put an RFP out nationally for the site

The city is and has been relieved of the bond debt since 2005 when Landmar agreed to take over the bond payments the city incurred from the failed Trilegacy deal. LandMar made 20mil in improvements to the land and paid 13.8mil towards the city bond debt. In 2009 LandMar declared bankruptcy and subsequently the land valued at 20mil in 09' was reverted back to the city. You see, LandMar was responsible for the bond debt after the deal was signed, not COJ. After bankruptcy court and five years worth of legal wrangling, the debt was settled and the city received an award of 13.4 million for its investment in the failed development. Why was this 13.4 million not used towards a bond payment of any sort when awarded and put into a special account? Because no bond is owed. That issue was dissolved along with other obligations during LandMar's bankruptcy.
And LOL at RFP. Really RFP?? Good luck WANTING for a sweeter deal, free of city required incentives. In 2001 the city approved 37mil in incentives to Trilegacy, and approved another 3mil towards public improvements when it signed the deal with LandMar. So let's SELL the land to a new developer, PAY for cleanup, AND THEN be on tap for more incentives I'm sure the new developer will in turn ask for. THAT would require another bond backed debt on the city's books. So what exactly is the gain in waiting for someone to buy the property, losing tax dollars that would be generated in the meantime, only to turn around and pay out incentives to another unknown entity. Khan has a proven track record of getting things done. IF in the event Khan fails to lay a single brick on site, the city would have lost nothing. We have everything to gain by doing the smart deal and signing over the land.

Thanks for doing your homework Professor Marle (LOL). (Heights)

Quote from: finehoe on February 01, 2015, 04:28:06 PM

Quote from: KenFSU on February 01, 2015, 02:38:15 PM
Based on what he's said in the past, I think we can expect to see:

1) Residential
2) Retail
3) Dining/Nightlife
4) A hotel
5) A marina
6) A covered practice field
7) The incorporation of the USS Adams
8 ) Some sort of a signature "attraction."
9) Public, riverfront space

Thanks!

Tell me about it; THIS is what WE ALL, I think want to see; and I hope that ALL OF THIS is what we will see in the shipyards. And yes, with so much to build on the property, it should be built in increments over a certain timeframe. Looks and sounds good to moi! (Heights)

totally agree with your last 6 posts

Quote from: heights unknown on February 01, 2015, 04:45:23 PM

Quote from: iMarvin on January 30, 2015, 11:42:03 PM
^Agree 100%.

I hope there a couple mid-rises in the plan; 15-30 story towers.

15-30 stories? Let's go whole hog; if the vacancy rate justifies it, how about 30 to 50 stories. (Heights)

I would love that. Make it as tall as possible.

^ I disagree.  Street vibrancy is best done with mid-rise buildings.  Plus I wouldn't want the shadows cast by towers on Bay Street

Considering how hot it gets in the summer, I'd say shadows would be a good thing. Plus it'd be nice to liven up the skyline with some high rises. It'd look pretty on TV and to people driving on 95.

Doubt there's a market to plop skyscrapers all over the place. Khan didn't get to be a billionaire by investing millions in things that aren't profitable. With that said, it will be interesting to finally see what he proposals and what the real details for the acquisition of the property are.

Quote from: jaxjaguar on February 01, 2015, 07:15:36 PM
Considering how hot it gets in the summer, I'd say shadows would be a good thing. Plus it'd be nice to liven up the skyline with some high rises. It'd look pretty on TV and to people driving on 95.

pretty skylines on TV and on the interstate do not a great downtown make

Maybe we could get one of the Potemkin architects to make an Imprssive On TV and From I-95 skyline.  ;)

I'm not sure how feasible large skyscrapers are either; that's why I initially said mid-rises. But it would be nice to get some buildings that could possibly alter the skyline. That'd always be nice.

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 01, 2015, 06:38:35 PM
^ I disagree.  Street vibrancy is best done with mid-rise buildings.  Plus I wouldn't want the shadows cast by towers on Bay Street

I don't know that height and the number of floors is as important as people, things going on, and how the buildings/assets interact for creating vibrancy. I know some pretty huge, famous towers that have amazing street vibrancy. That said mid-rise all the way. It's what I think the market can justify now and it saves views for potential buildings built behind down the road. Also if things work and lets say it is a massive catalyst for downtown, then having some exclusivity due to the number of units in a landmark area can have pluses. I know people with large expendable incomes who look/care about that sort of thing, who if put downtown in that area would add to the dynamic of the core.

Directly from Khan's mouth VIA Actionnews; Expect an announcement on the shipyards in less than 30 days. The covered practice field is definitely coming. He didn't get into any revealing details other than that. Part 1, Martineau and Khan talks Jags, and Part 2 is when they talk about the shipyards. The video link is at the bottom.   

From the JaxDailyRecord-

QuoteJacksonville Jaguars owner Shad Khan's plans for the Shipyards could be known in the next several weeks.
"I'd say less than 30 days," Khan told WJAX TV-47, according to a video posted on its website.

Khan provided the interview to Action News during Super Bowl festivities in Arizona, where he and other team personnel went to take in the game.

Team President Mark Lamping also was on the trip and unavailable for comment.

Khan told the station that for a Downtown to work, it needed people who are living there, have jobs there, spend money there and enjoy their life there. But, he said, "that's not happening right now" in Jacksonville.

Khan in June 2013 first went public with his interest in developing the 40-acre riverfront site that sits adjacent to EverBank Field. In July, he said his proposal could be ready in weeks before the start of the NFL season, but that was pushed back.

The plan likely will be privately funded and feature mixed-use residential and retail, but Khan did tell the station that an indoor practice facility would be "the coolest covered practice field you've ever seen."

"It'll blow your mind," he said.

The city owns the land and has been determining what environmental remediation is needed for the property.

http://www.actionnewsjax.com/videos/news/action-sports-shad-khan-interview-at-the-super/vDDHJg/

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 01, 2015, 06:38:35 PM
^ I disagree.  Street vibrancy is best done with mid-rise buildings.  Plus I wouldn't want the shadows cast by towers on Bay Street

I would. We're a major U.S. City, not a small or mid-sized town. Jax was the first Florida City to go tall; so let's keep the legacy intact.

Quote from: thelakelander on February 01, 2015, 08:21:27 PM
Doubt there's a market to plop skyscrapers all over the place. Khan didn't get to be a billionaire by investing millions in things that aren't profitable. With that said, it will be interesting to finally see what he proposals and what the real details for the acquisition of the property are.

Lake; I know there's not a market; but we can hope, and dream. Come on...you know as well as I do that we all would love for Jax to have some more 600, 700, or even 800 footers soaring into the heavens; just a pipe dream. I too will be glad when the proposal(s) are done and publicized. Will be interesting. I honestly believe that we're in for a surprise...something that we never expected (judging from the way Mr. Khan was talking in the interview).

To me, by him saying, "It'll blow your mind," in the interview, indicates that we're in for a pleasant and unexpected surprise; something that is off key, and totally out of the norm for Jacksonville. Watch and see.

Let's hope so, because it sounds like we may be paying a pretty penny for it.

Quote from: heights unknown on February 03, 2015, 08:07:24 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 01, 2015, 06:38:35 PM
^ I disagree.  Street vibrancy is best done with mid-rise buildings.  Plus I wouldn't want the shadows cast by towers on Bay Street

I would. We're a major U.S. City, not a small or mid-sized town. Jax was the first Florida City to go tall; so let's keep the legacy intact.

Philadelphia did just fine in being a major city...all while keeping buildings at less than 25 stories until the late 1980s

Quote from: heights unknown on February 03, 2015, 08:15:06 PM
.... something that is off key, and totally out of the norm for Jacksonville. Watch and see.

Something that is actually brought to fruition in the same generation?

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 03, 2015, 09:00:23 PM
Philadelphia did just fine in being a major city...all while keeping buildings at less than 25 stories until the late 1980s

1818 Market was built in 1974; it stands 518 ft at 37 floors. The same age, and floor count as our Wells Fargo Center(535 ft). Philly has tons of other buildings that were built in the early 80's all the way to the Roaring 20's over 25 stories. I get the gist of what you're saying though. Washington and Baltimore are currently notable for not having very tall buildings.

Right on about DC but Baltimore has some height.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Baltimore-2014/i-9jNzFZ8/0/L/P1720510-L.jpg)

^^^Nice shot of Baltimore. Yeah, I was emphasizing on 'very tall' like 700-800 footers that Heights was talking about. The tallest there by far is One HSBC Center at 529 ft, shorter than our second tallest the Wells Fargo Center. I believe that they have some kind of height restriction there, ala Jax Beach. 

I'd like to see a few midrises in the plan. As much as I love skyscrapers, I don't know if there's that much of a demand to justify the huge investment. Apartment towers maybe? Either way just give me max connectivity and max vibrancy..something more easily accomplished in our market with low to midrises. Even if towers are indeed built, if they activate the ground floors and garage bases everythings all good.

I'm frustrated that the city is giving up riverfront property for the prActice facility. Why not put it on one of the massive surface lots around the stadium? It could go over the Pepsi fun zone or whatever it's called. They could buy the property from Tailgaters bar and grill and put it there. Unless this thing is going to get constantly used and is open to the public, we're wasting a few acres of the riverfront. Plus, how does it even make sense for the jags to put it there? It will be over 400 yards from their outdoor practice fields and almost a half mile from the locker room. They'll have to bus players over or duplicate a number of facilities and functions.

I'd rather see the fields on the parking lot, a 3-4 story garage on one of the remaining lots, and lot J turned into grass covered event space. This is Jacksonville though, even our football team needs to have a sprawling campus.

Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 04, 2015, 08:38:32 AM
I'm frustrated that the city is giving up riverfront property for the prActice facility. Why not put it on one of the massive surface lots around the stadium? It could go over the Pepsi fun zone or whatever it's called. They could buy the property from Tailgaters bar and grill and put it there. Unless this thing is going to get constantly used and is open to the public, we're wasting a few acres of the riverfront. Plus, how does it even make sense for the jags to put it there? It will be over 400 yards from their outdoor practice fields and almost a half mile from the locker room. They'll have to bus players over or duplicate a number of facilities and functions.

I'd rather see the fields on the parking lot, a 3-4 story garage on one of the remaining lots, and lot J turned into grass covered event space. This is Jacksonville though, even our football team needs to have a sprawling campus.

Just wait till you see the bill for all this.

Well. We are the city with a school board building on the river.

(http://bailbonds954.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/colormainjail1-300x225.png)

Just like Fort Lauderdale. However, they've figured out how to at least make Las Olas active.

(http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/09/25/city20d1.jpg)

Quote from: stephendare on February 04, 2015, 09:25:34 AM

Quote from: pierre on February 04, 2015, 09:16:12 AM
Well. We are the city with a school board building on the river.

and a jail

And a collapsed parking lot

Come on guys, Jacksonville has always had a great respect for its riverfront property.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4846-parking-1956.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1341914341_xd92NCz-M.jpg)

Quote from: I-10east on February 03, 2015, 10:35:02 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 03, 2015, 09:00:23 PM
Philadelphia did just fine in being a major city...all while keeping buildings at less than 25 stories until the late 1980s

1818 Market was built in 1974; it stands 518 ft at 37 floors. The same age, and floor count as our Wells Fargo Center(535 ft). Philly has tons of other buildings that were built in the early 80's all the way to the Roaring 20's over 25 stories. I get the gist of what you're saying though. Washington and Baltimore are currently notable for not having very tall buildings.

There is a height restriction on buildings within the district limits of DC.   Believe me if not for that they would have built up a long time ago.  Almost every office building in the district is built to the max height allowable.  Neighboring northern VA and the DC suburbs of MD have built up to the 20-30 story range.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Height_of_Buildings_Act_of_1910

While we are at it, wouldn't this be a good time to drop the Hart Expressway down to ground level after you cross the bridge heading into downtown? The life expectancy of it can't be much longer anyways. Connectivity could be significantly improved.

Quote from: Tacachale on February 04, 2015, 09:15:35 AM

Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 04, 2015, 08:38:32 AM
I'm frustrated that the city is giving up riverfront property for the prActice facility. Why not put it on one of the massive surface lots around the stadium? It could go over the Pepsi fun zone or whatever it's called. They could buy the property from Tailgaters bar and grill and put it there. Unless this thing is going to get constantly used and is open to the public, we're wasting a few acres of the riverfront. Plus, how does it even make sense for the jags to put it there? It will be over 400 yards from their outdoor practice fields and almost a half mile from the locker room. They'll have to bus players over or duplicate a number of facilities and functions.

I'd rather see the fields on the parking lot, a 3-4 story garage on one of the remaining lots, and lot J turned into grass covered event space. This is Jacksonville though, even our football team needs to have a sprawling campus.

Just wait till you see the bill for all this.

I'm holding judgement until the plan is presented. I have no problem with the practice facility on the shipyards property so long as it's integrated properly and it's design is a khan described mind blowingly good. I too would have like to see something done with the sports complex sprawling lot such as new garages with ground floor bars/retail/bowling alley, arcade, sports oriented store like academy, dicks, or bass proshops, etc. And I believe it would have been best to build the indoor field next to the current fields. However I believe we should all just exercise a little more patience before we judge a plan we have not yet seen.
BTW, I have still not gotten a figure from any of you complaining about price. If the man said it will all be privately funded, why insist on pushing this costing tax payers agenda. No where has it been stated yet from Lapine or Khan that city incentives would be needed.  Anyway, that discussion is dead until Khan flips and requests city funds.

I'm sorry but I find this comical.........JAX is considering giving away River front property because nobody wants to invest in the city and FPL just sold a parking lot right by the interstate in downtown Miami for 21 million.......,,a tale of two florida cities......

http://www.bizjournals.com/southflorida/news/2015/01/27/fpl-sells-downtown-miami-development-site-for-21m.html

Quote from: tpot on February 04, 2015, 09:10:38 PM
I'm sorry but I find this comical.........JAX is considering giving away River front property because nobody wants to invest in the city and FPL just sold a parking lot right by the interstate in downtown Miami for 21 million.......,,a tale of two florida cities......

http://www.bizjournals.com/southflorida/news/2015/01/27/fpl-sells-downtown-miami-development-site-for-21m.html

I find it comical that you're comparing Jax to Miami..tbh

Not really comparing Miami to JAX....but in reality.....the rest of Florida is taking off with development, but JAX is really struggling compared to the state.....

Quote from: tpot on February 04, 2015, 09:16:39 PM
Not really comparing Miami to JAX....but in reality.....the rest of Florida is taking off with development, but JAX is really struggling compared to the state.....

tpot...in all due respect, everything north of Orlando is the real, sleepy, redneck, state of Florida; everything south of Orlando is Ohio, Illinois, New York, Pennsylvania, Kentucky, Tennessee, Massachusetts, Connecticut.......should I go on? Tourists bring the millions south of the Central Florida North Florida border. They keep on going through the gateway city of Jacksonville (the real Florida), down to their Northern tourist vacation bungalows. Unfortunately, this is ONE of the reasons why Jax is struggling. And yes, there should be no excuses. Regardless of Jax being in the good ole boy, red neck, real Florida, North Florida, Georgia in disguise, whatever you want to call us, we, Jax, should be able to jump onboard and reap the benefits of just being in the Sunshine State of Florida. Hang on tpot, we are desperately trying to adapt, hang on, and get on board with the rest of the other major Florida Cities down in the tourist/vacation areas; it's hard, but have some sympathy. Lastly, remember, when Jax was the number 1 city in Florida, Miami, Orlando, and other big cities outside of Tampa, were not even laid down. So just chill out, be nice, and try to understand the reasons why Jax is always struggling while development seems so easy for the other major Florida cities.

Hey Heights Unknown,
That's funny, I consider everything North of Orlando to be South Georgia......lol.  I lived in JAX for many years, JAX has sooo much potential, but the elected officials, elected by the MAJORITY of the JAX population keep this city stuck in the dark ages.....which makes this city a bad bet on investment.........JAX has a great forum board with a great following of innovative thinking people.........unfortunately the innovative thinkers are out voted at every election...........

Quote from: tpot on February 04, 2015, 09:16:39 PM
Not really comparing Miami to JAX....but in reality.....the rest of Florida is taking off with development, but JAX is really struggling compared to the state.....

Why is this? Because there isn't anything here. Miami has everything from beaches to fame, Orlando has attractions, Tampa has the gulf shore beaches and tourism. Jax has......I'll wait. For us to ignite development on par with our state it will take great vision and great sacrifice. If the development reaches it's potential and is the catalyst behind more after, then maybe Jax wouldn't struggle in attracting people because they're now given something to do. Simply put, more people=more housing= equals more developments=happy people with things to see and do ;D

Quote from: Marle Brando on February 04, 2015, 11:30:41 PM

Quote from: tpot on February 04, 2015, 09:16:39 PM
Not really comparing Miami to JAX....but in reality.....the rest of Florida is taking off with development, but JAX is really struggling compared to the state.....

Why is this? Because there isn't anything here. Miami has everything from beaches to fame, Orlando has attractions, Tampa has the gulf shore beaches and tourism. Jax has......I'll wait. For us to ignite development on par with our state it will take great vision and great sacrifice. If the development reaches it's potential and is the catalyst behind more after, then maybe Jax wouldn't struggle in attracting people because they're now given something to do. Simply put, more people=more housing= equals more developments=happy people with things to see and do ;D

Jax has miles of riverfront land, beachfront land, and blocks of emptiness in the core (not to mention all of the golf courses, natural activities, and actual historic neighborhoods), and for a lot much cheaper than the rest of those cities. The problem is not the city itself.

iMarvin you are right, the problem is not the city itself. I also couldn't agree more about the beachfront land and riverfront land, but that's just it. What good is beachfront or riverfront land in attracting development IF it is not activated? It's just land. South Beach minus the hotels, nightlife, resorts, culture is just Plain Beach.

Quote from: Marle Brando on February 05, 2015, 12:11:26 AM
iMarvin you are right, the problem is not the city itself. I also couldn't agree more about the beachfront land and riverfront land, but that's just it. What good is beachfront or riverfront land in attracting development IF it is not activated? It's just land. South Beach minus the hotels, nightlife, resorts, culture is just Plain Beach.

I agree. That all falls back onto the city planners and governing body. If they actually cared about the city itself and changing it to attract development, they would actually do something.

I like Jacksonville a lot though! I lived in downtown Miami and it wasn't that nice to me. I love the old city in jax! The oak trees, rivers and architecture is just amazing to me.

Anyways Mr. Shad better build something soon, I want to check it out.

Quote from: tpot on February 04, 2015, 11:11:13 PM
Hey Heights Unknown,
That's funny, I consider everything North of Orlando to be South Georgia......lol.  I lived in JAX for many years, JAX has sooo much potential, but the elected officials, elected by the MAJORITY of the JAX population keep this city stuck in the dark ages.....which makes this city a bad bet on investment.........JAX has a great forum board with a great following of innovative thinking people.........unfortunately the innovative thinkers are out voted at every election...........

Now THAT I do agree with tspot. You are right. But give us a great big "T" for trying, and NOT GIVING UP. We will get there.

We're not going to get there, heights unknown, as long as you and others continue with this bizarre "everything north of Orlando is redneck" foolishness.

Frankly, that's idiotic. And, what the hell is wrong with South Georgia? Millions of Americans who travel and spend tourist dollars much prefer it to Miami any day.

Two things y'all need to figure out. [1] There's nothing wrong with Southerners. [2] If you insist on this type of "everything north of Orlando is South Georgia" construct, then the real deal is that South Georgia is really North Florida -- not vice-versa. They come to us to shop, they watch our media, etc., from Tallahassee to Jacksonville. But that's not REALLY important. What is important to me, is this casual trashing of an entire region of folks. And it being casually accepted as if it carries some real truth with it.

Miami is not the standard we should be looking to because it is a completely abnormal city (truly the capital of the Americas) that turns off many (I happen to like it), and -- truth be told -- Jacksonville compares favorably with Tampa or Orlando if you remove prejudice against Southerners from the equation.

We need to focus far more on accepting Jacksonville as a southern city, and proud of that heritage, black / white/ otherwise *and* accepting Jacksonville as a Florida city, and proud of that heritage, black / white/ otherwise.

We've got something really special; too many who live in Jax don't seem to quite comprehend that fact.

Agreed⤴  Atlanta shows their southern heritage, and I like it.
I never got a country vibe from living in jax, but then again I only go to the old city, downtown,Southside, mandarin and the beaches.
Each area in jax has its own culture which is really weird LOL

Being from the northeast, I have really come to love Jacksonville.  There is something down here that is historically different from the history of the north, but that is what I like.  I don't feel like I would like Jacksonville to be Philly because it is not and never will be.  I also don't feel we don't have an identity.  I feel that our leaders just keep doing the same wrong things year after year.  Until something changes in our leadership, then we will not be competitive with our peer cities. 

Quote from: benfranklinbof on February 05, 2015, 11:43:14 AM
Agreed⤴  Atlanta shows their southern heritage, and I like it.
I never got a country vibe from living in jax, but then again I only go to the old city, downtown,Southside, mandarin and the beaches.
Each area in jax has its own culture which is really weird LOL

So true! Every side of Jax has its own little subculture. I personally love the vibe going on near King st, Riverside, 5points, and slowly creeping  into downtown. Cross into San marco and it's totally different than over the bridge.

Quote from: RattlerGator on February 05, 2015, 11:19:44 AM
We're not going to get there, heights unknown, as long as you and others continue with this bizarre "everything north of Orlando is redneck" foolishness.

Frankly, that's idiotic. And, what the hell is wrong with South Georgia? Millions of Americans who travel and spend tourist dollars much prefer it to Miami any day.

Two things y'all need to figure out. [1] There's nothing wrong with Southerners. [2] If you insist on this type of "everything north of Orlando is South Georgia" construct, then the real deal is that South Georgia is really North Florida -- not vice-versa. They come to us to shop, they watch our media, etc., from Tallahassee to Jacksonville. But that's not REALLY important. What is important to me, is this casual trashing of an entire region of folks. And it being casually accepted as if it carries some real truth with it.

Miami is not the standard we should be looking to because it is a completely abnormal city (truly the capital of the Americas) that turns off many (I happen to like it), and -- truth be told -- Jacksonville compares favorably with Tampa or Orlando if you remove prejudice against Southerners from the equation.

We need to focus far more on accepting Jacksonville as a southern city, and proud of that heritage, black / white/ otherwise *and* accepting Jacksonville as a Florida city, and proud of that heritage, black / white/ otherwise.

We've got something really special; too many who live in Jax don't seem to quite comprehend that fact.

Settle down Rattler; don't bite me anymore or I'll have to bite back. I am entitled to my opinion; and heck, I am just telling what I think. I AM FROM NORTH FLORIDA, BORN IN JACKSONVILLE IN 1956...so I think I might know a little about all of that, especially me being a black red neck and hillbilly. So just settle down. I love Jacksonville, but we really need to change our vision, focus, and mentality on a lot of things before we even attempt to move forward. And.......a man like Shad Khan doesn't come along much too often; especially in the path of a major U.S. City that has a backwoods mentality; just stating my opinion and how I see it Rattler; so just settle down Bro.

Quote from: benfranklinbof on February 05, 2015, 11:43:14 AM
Agreed⤴  Atlanta shows their southern heritage, and I like it.
I never got a country vibe from living in jax, but then again I only go to the old city, downtown,Southside, mandarin and the beaches.
Each area in jax has its own culture which is really weird LOL

(http://40.media.tumblr.com/422030c106c0e9fd3b8ae004939dee00/tumblr_n2dptlvztA1s4df8ko1_1280.jpg)

The above, though obviously hyperbolic, underscores the importance of the Jaguars to Jacksonville. Without unifying causes/common rallying points, we're nothing but a bunch of a disparate sub-cities who just so happen to all be contributing to the same tax base. Also kind of underscores how badly we need a killer mass-transit system to open up and truly connect the city.

^that is awesome!!

The week of February 16th appears to be the date of the Shipyards announcement.

QuoteThe Jaguars and owner Shad Khan have been working for months on plans to develop The Shipyards, a vacant tract of city-owned land along the St. Johns River in downtown, not far from EverBank Field.

Team spokesman Dan Edwards said the Jaguars would provide more details at the State of the Franchise address, which will take place the week of Feb. 16.

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2015-02-05/story/jaguars-unveil-details-teams-vision-shipyards-project-state-franchise#cxrecs_s

Quote from: heights unknown on February 05, 2015, 12:29:53 PM
Settle down Rattler; don't bite me anymore or I'll have to bite back. I am entitled to my opinion; and heck, I am just telling what I think. I AM FROM NORTH FLORIDA, BORN IN JACKSONVILLE IN 1956...so I think I might know a little about all of that, especially me being a black red neck and hillbilly. So just settle down. I love Jacksonville, but we really need to change our vision, focus, and mentality on a lot of things before we even attempt to move forward. And.......a man like Shad Khan doesn't come along much too often; especially in the path of a major U.S. City that has a backwoods mentality; just stating my opinion and how I see it Rattler; so just settle down Bro.

Very good; I'm just smoking you out, bruh, and giving strong opinion to meet a strong opinion. Especially when it *appears* to be talking down a city that gets casually talked down in ridiculous ways all too often (there you go with that "backwoods mentality" thing). But I absolutely agree with you 100% about Shad Khan.

The week of February 16th soon comes. I'm prepared to be somewhat disappointed but still somewhat satisfied, that seems to be the course of things in Big Duval. But, I'm seriously hoping that Shad and his partners blow us all away.

Quote from: Marle Brando on February 01, 2015, 10:34:39 AM

Quote from: fieldafm on February 01, 2015, 08:47:23 AM

QuoteWhere is it stated that the city is PAYING Khan to develop the property?

It has not been made public what the City's deal is yet (that will happen in two weeks), but they initially asked the city to pay for remediation (reasonable), pay for a Riverwalk extension (reasonable) and give them the land for free (not reasonable). In addition to COJ paying for site cleanup and public access (aka, the Riverwalk), we the taxpayers are still paying interest on bond debt related to the Shipyards property from previous failed redevelopment efforts (there have been three so far).

COJ has yet to put an RFP out nationally for the site

The city is and has been relieved of the bond debt since 2005 when Landmar agreed to take over the bond payments the city incurred from the failed Trilegacy deal. LandMar made 20mil in improvements to the land and paid 13.8mil towards the city bond debt. In 2009 LandMar declared bankruptcy and subsequently the land valued at 20mil in 09' was reverted back to the city. You see, LandMar was responsible for the bond debt after the deal was signed, not COJ. After bankruptcy court and five years worth of legal wrangling, the debt was settled and the city received an award of 13.4 million for its investment in the failed development. Why was this 13.4 million not used towards a bond payment of any sort when awarded and put into a special account? Because no bond is owed. That issue was dissolved along with other obligations during LandMar's bankruptcy.
And LOL at RFP. Really RFP?? Good luck WANTING for a sweeter deal, free of city required incentives. In 2001 the city approved 37mil in incentives to Trilegacy, and approved another 3mil towards public improvements when it signed the deal with LandMar. So let's SELL the land to a new developer, PAY for cleanup, AND THEN be on tap for more incentives I'm sure the new developer will in turn ask for. THAT would require another bond backed debt on the city's books. So what exactly is the gain in waiting for someone to buy the property, losing tax dollars that would be generated in the meantime, only to turn around and pay out incentives to another unknown entity. Khan has a proven track record of getting things done. IF in the event Khan fails to lay a single brick on site, the city would have lost nothing. We have everything to gain by doing the smart deal and signing over the land.

You are misinformed. The City was not 'relieved of the bond debt'. The previous developer was in fact paying the City (a municipal government cannot transfer bond debt to a private entity) until they filed for bankruptcy. COJ's claim (aka, their debt) towards LandMar was settled in the bankruptcy hearing when they were awarded $13mm and took back ownership of the land. When City officials talk of 'making themselves whole' through the process, they are refering to the fact that COJ gained back an asset (the land) through the bankruptcy proceedings. That didnt retire the bond debt. COJ stilll holds that, and the $13mm wasnt used to satisfy this debt... it went back into the general fund.


As far as your comment 'And LOL at RFP. Really RFP??'... well, thats actually legally required.


Said it many times here. Developers across the country aren't taking Sunday drives around Jacksonville looking for 30 acres of waterfront land to develop. You actually have to market a property for sale, in order to set a market for the property.

2014-560 The CRA/DIA in the USA is ready for council.

Old Buildings, New Buildings, We Don't care.
We are the DIA.
And you will DO what we say.

Should the Jacksonville city council defer action to send this back to Waterways on 2/11/15 given the Boyer amendment that was offered at Finance that has a Waterways component?

I'd say YES!
Restore the Public Trust.
Especially as it relates to our St. Johns River our American Heritage River a FEDERAL Initiative in our Super Duper restricted according to a CRA consultant 4.8 mile rivers edge zone whose boundary is from the Fuller Warren Bridge to the Mathews Bridge.

Does anyone else feel sorry for the Baltimore guys 2014-412?
Will the new water taxi contract (non contract) be on the 2/11/15 Waterways agenda?

Tides are looking good for a RICO loop.

Visit Jacksonville!

I am Downtown and why you aren't.

Who's next?

Quote from: thelakelander on February 06, 2015, 06:38:17 AM
The week of February 16th appears to be the date of the Shipyards announcement.

QuoteThe Jaguars and owner Shad Khan have been working for months on plans to develop The Shipyards, a vacant tract of city-owned land along the St. Johns River in downtown, not far from EverBank Field.

Team spokesman Dan Edwards said the Jaguars would provide more details at the State of the Franchise address, which will take place the week of Feb. 16.

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2015-02-05/story/jaguars-unveil-details-teams-vision-shipyards-project-state-franchise#cxrecs_s

Definitely will be interesting to see what is presented.

After reading the article in the TU this morning I have a couple of questions. The first would be is it just part of the process to not have already submitted a request for proposals. Do they actually wait until someone submits a proposal until they send out requests for more. How long do they give other developers who might be interested time to submit something. My second question is why has the city not cleaned up the Shipyards property before now. We have been trying to get this property developed for years now so why hasn't it been done already. I mean cmon!! That would cut a year or two off of the process. Having said all of that it is great to see that the plans might be revealed at the State of the Jags press conference!

I posted this in another thread about The Shipyards, but probably deserves a repost given how this conversation is going.

This is how NYC redeveloped Brooklyn Bridge Park, which is pretty awesome btw. This is how you create an awesome mixed-use project and utilize valuable riverfront property for public park space.

http://www.brooklynbridgepark.org/pages/project-development

http://brooklynbridgepark.s3.amazonaws.com/s/518/2006%20General%20Project%20Plan.pdf

I'm going to hold my commentary until Khan releases his plans, but this^ is the proper way to dispose of public land.

Quote from: GatorShane on February 06, 2015, 09:49:17 AM
After reading the article in the TU this morning I have a couple of questions. The first would be is it just part of the process to not have already submitted a request for proposals. Do they actually wait until someone submits a proposal until they send out requests for more. How long do they give other developers who might be interested time to submit something. My second question is why has the city not cleaned up the Shipyards property before now. We have been trying to get this property developed for years now so why hasn't it been done already. I mean cmon!! That would cut a year or two off of the process. Having said all of that it is great to see that the plans might be revealed at the State of the Jags press conference!

The answer is that the city has made little no effort to do anything with the property in the time that Alvin Brown has been mayor. They should have gotten it together and put out an RFP years ago. There's clearly interest in the property as there have been several attempts to do something with it in the past.

Same goes for the courthouse site. We've only know for something like 15 years that the courthouse would be moving. We still have no plan.

Quote from: GatorShane on February 06, 2015, 09:49:17 AM
After reading the article in the TU this morning I have a couple of questions. The first would be is it just part of the process to not have already submitted a request for proposals. Do they actually wait until someone submits a proposal until they send out requests for more. How long do they give other developers who might be interested time to submit something. My second question is why has the city not cleaned up the Shipyards property before now. We have been trying to get this property developed for years now so why hasn't it been done already. I mean cmon!! That would cut a year or two off of the process. Having said all of that it is great to see that the plans might be revealed at the State of the Jags press conference!

Redeveloping the Shipyards will easily be one of single most expensive projects in city history. It will take someone with very, very deep pockets to execute the project properly, and I'm sure the city is a little gun shy after the last $1 billion redevelopment attempt ended with the developer going bankrupt after the city had already pumped $20 million into the project ($13 million was recovered in bankruptcy court – funds which will be used to clean up the site).

Why has it taken so long to get the ball rolling on remediation? Because Jacksonville.

If not for Khan expressing interest, I have a feeling the property would sit as is for another decade to come. By talking openly about his interest in the Shipyards, I think Khan helped get the ball rolling in regards to the city issuing an RFP for remediation. Based on everything that I've read and heard about the site, I think a two-year remediation is best case scenario. The contract itself is for potentially up to five years (three year base, with the option of two one-year extensions).

When Khan reveals his vision for the site the week after next, both city and state law dictate that Jacksonville will have to advertise the site and put out an RFP. The City Council, with input from the DIA, will ultimately make the final decision. The DIA's master plan calls for a "large-scale, mixed-use development centered around sports, entertainment and tourism," so I think they'll be on board.
It will be really interesting to see what, if any, interest the site attracts from other developers when an RFP is issued.

It's a big risk, and Jacksonville isn't exactly a hot market right now:
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2015/02/05/emerging-trends-jacksonville-ranks-fair-behind.html

The act of waiting for a sugar daddy to rain billions upon this site as a single developer is why it's taken so long to do anything with this property.

An alternative strategy, which has been proven to be quite successful in peer communities with similar parcels, would be to develop a community vision/master plan for the site, and then carve individual parcels and a street grid into it.

At that point, you invest in the public space you want and RFP smaller parcels of land to multiple players.

http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/82999976_zpid/days_sort/30.324251,-81.650727,30.322285,-81.65357_rect/18_zm/1_fr/?view=map

What do you suppose happens to the value of this place once Khan's Shipyards plans look like they are for real? (the hole on Liberty Street notwithstanding).

^Hard to say without seeing price points of residential at Shipyards and Healthy Town (if they come to fruition).

No! No!! NO!!! Please no ferris wheel!! We already are talking about two potential 'monkey see monkey do' unoriginal attractions (the USS Adams and an aquarium) now add another one, a ferris wheel, sigh... At this rate, we would be caught up with Shelbyville in no time!!! To be honest, the only one I'm okay with is the USS Adams; The other two, I question the feasibility. Bold cities create unique attractions, not building a facsimile of every US city.

http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/morning-edition/2015/02/jaguars-to-reveal-details-of-shipyards-plans.html

^ Pretty sure that was just "one artist's rendition" and nothing serious. 

This is a pretty funny line, and by funny I mean completely detached from reality:

Quote"From our perspective, we are eager to reactive the site, but we want to respect the process," Mayor Alvin Brown's spokesperson David DeCamp told the Times-Union.

Quote from: CityLife on February 06, 2015, 01:41:38 PM
^Hard to say without seeing price points of residential at Shipyards and Healthy Town (if they come to fruition).

Yes, very hard to say without comps, but I do like the fact pattern.  Waterfront in the core, 1,000 new workers moving downtown, and a lot of buzz and excitement headed this way.  I'm not sure I could find a similar urban townhouse in an major city in America at that price. 

Someone made a comment on another thread that made me think about a cool practice field concept. How about 1. A fitness club with a full size elevated running track around outside (dimmable glass for private Jags practice sessions) 2. Ice skating rink at one end with sports bar overlooking it (or a stacked configuration with field?) 3. Outdoor adventure area at other end (river end) with an Intuition Ale Bier Garden. Just takes money and time.

I like the USS Adams idea. Seems to make sense since this is The Shipyards. Would also love a WW II Era display/attraction like an actual Liberty Ship, or a PT Bat that took folks for a ride around the downtown area. Add an IMAX Theater plus a Kraft Foods Pavilion and Tour plus Jacksonville Brewers Ultimate Taproom Kiosk (For Intuiton, Bold City, Green Room, Aardwolf.....) and you have a great start at a reasonable price.

We def need Berkman II to be finished as a hotel, it's a solid fit to the area and will be Sold Out for NFL weekend s plus other similar events featured down there ( FL/GA game etc....). 

Mr. Khan just needs a dedicated private boat slip to park his yacht when he's in town. Maybe he'll rent some space for the Adams

Quote from: Ralph W on February 07, 2015, 08:00:43 PM
Mr. Khan just needs a dedicated private boat slip to park his yacht when he's in town. Maybe he'll rent some space for the Adams

Shipyards III
The irony.
Shipyards I - A 150 slip marina and not ONE slip for the PUBLIC
Shipyards II- A 150 slip marina and not ONE slip for the PUBLIC
Shipyards III - I can see that 680' former Promised pier 2010-604 and docked on the one side is our Navy ship guarding Khan's yacht as we interpret economic opportunity and freedom in our NEW according to a CRA consultant 4.8 miles rivers edge zone and this restricted boundary is from the Fuller Warren Bridge to the Mathews Bridge. Active legislation 2014-560.

Quote from: MusicMan on February 07, 2015, 11:12:58 AM
We def need Berkman II to be finished as a hotel, it's a solid fit to the area and will be Sold Out for NFL weekend s plus other similar events featured down there ( FL/GA game etc....).

No we need the hotel at the Trio.

This City could support two (more) if a few pieces fall into place. One with a Marina/Sports/Entertainment Complex nearby and one with a Historic flair serving the downtown business interest.

^There's another hotel proposed in Brooklyn adjacent to 220 Riverside.

Not surprised. Unless I'm missing something there is not one hotel or motel serving downtown from the CSX building all the way to Orange Park.  Certainly nothing serving Riverside-Avondale-Ortega.

Are any of the current DT hotels profitable?

With all these great ideas, and the available land, and the weather, the river, etc. what amazes me is that investors aren't tripping all over themselves with interest. What's not to love?

Not enough people going downtown. They only go there for special occasions. I like to walk around downtown a lot.

Quote from: IrvAdams on February 09, 2015, 05:18:22 PM
With all these great ideas, and the available land, and the weather, the river, etc. what amazes me is that investors aren't tripping all over themselves with interest. What's not to love?

The local government.

They don't know about it because there hasn't been a formal RFP.

Quote from: Tacachale on February 09, 2015, 06:05:35 PM
They don't know about it because there hasn't been a formal RFP.

No one in this country who has the capability -- well, at least 95% of 'em -- needs an RFP to know where the opportunities are, and those that *do* need an RFP aren't going to do a damn thing in Jax. That's the kind of sit-back-and-wait-while-we-draw-up-this-pie-in-the-sky-RPF foolishness that leads to disrespecting what Shad Khan is doing for us, and is attempting to do for us.

Once Khan makes his plans public, the City will then be "on the clock" to put the RFP out.

It's been absolutely horrendous timing concerning the upcoming shipyards announcement and that Liberty Street collapse.

Quote from: IrvAdams on February 09, 2015, 05:18:22 PM
With all these great ideas, and the available land, and the weather, the river, etc. what amazes me is that investors aren't tripping all over themselves with interest. What's not to love?

It's nothing special in the grand scheme of things. we're a mobile society. Development can be done all across the globe. So it there are situations created that hampers private investment from efficiently happening in certain areas, there's nothing stopping investment to moving to more development friendly locations with proven examples of positive ROI.

I'm dying to see the so far out of the know, deep pocket investors who come running out cash in hand ready to submit proposals after an official RFP is sent. Boy I can't wait. . .   .    . After all the press Khan has given the city when it comes to the Shipyards I find it very hard to believe no one in the know, and with the means, has not heard about this golden property available in Jacksonville, Fl. Sure you may get a few Killashee Investments types that will propose a 1,000ft tower etc., but where are the means? Everything after the announcement is just a formality, due process sort of deal but I believe this to be a done deal on the hush hush side. If there was anyone out there willing and ready to go all out on the shipyards then why the hell let Khan get all the shine now? I'd be in front of the papers just as the Jaguars are. I'd be announcing plans at press conferences the same as Khan. Wouldn't you? Why isn't this happening?...where are they now?

I don't believe you can just give the land away. So issuing an RFP is just a typical part of the process.

Pretty sure ay least one RFP  has been issued on this parcel in the past, but nothing real ever came from it.

It's also telling that even with the previous plans to develop the site (cant remember the company who was supposed to develop it around 2006, LandMar??) that the site is still environmentally dirty.

Quote from: Marle Brando on February 10, 2015, 12:05:25 AM
I'm dying to see the so far out of the know, deep pocket investors who come running out cash in hand ready to submit proposals after an official RFP is sent. Boy I can't wait. . .   .    . After all the press Khan has given the city when it comes to the Shipyards I find it very hard to believe no one in the know, and with the means, has not heard about this golden property available in Jacksonville, Fl. Sure you may get a few Killashee Investments types that will propose a 1,000ft tower etc., but where are the means? Everything after the announcement is just a formality, due process sort of deal but I believe this to be a done deal on the hush hush side. If there was anyone out there willing and ready to go all out on the shipyards then why the hell let Khan get all the shine now? I'd be in front of the papers just as the Jaguars are. I'd be announcing plans at press conferences the same as Khan. Wouldn't you? Why isn't this happening?...where are they now?

Who knows how many people approached the city with smaller plans, only to be turned away, or ignored completely.  We know of at least 1, Intuition.  Hard for them to even get a call back, then the city told them to scram basically.  So maybe there have beena hundred offers that have gone ignored.  Maybe each just wanted a small piece of the Shipyards for a plan, but the city's handling of it's land inventory has been abysmal at best.

QuotePretty sure ay least one RFP  has been issued on this parcel in the past, but nothing real ever came from it.

I think that was just for activation of the land in the meantime. 

Quote from: I-10east on February 09, 2015, 10:36:56 PM
It's been absolutely horrendous timing concerning the upcoming shipyards announcement and that Liberty Street collapse.

Not really

Quote from: Bridges on February 10, 2015, 08:19:27 AM

Quote from: Marle Brando on February 10, 2015, 12:05:25 AM
I'm dying to see the so far out of the know, deep pocket investors who come running out cash in hand ready to submit proposals after an official RFP is sent. Boy I can't wait. . .   .    . After all the press Khan has given the city when it comes to the Shipyards I find it very hard to believe no one in the know, and with the means, has not heard about this golden property available in Jacksonville, Fl. Sure you may get a few Killashee Investments types that will propose a 1,000ft tower etc., but where are the means? Everything after the announcement is just a formality, due process sort of deal but I believe this to be a done deal on the hush hush side. If there was anyone out there willing and ready to go all out on the shipyards then why the hell let Khan get all the shine now? I'd be in front of the papers just as the Jaguars are. I'd be announcing plans at press conferences the same as Khan. Wouldn't you? Why isn't this happening?...where are they now?

Who knows how many people approached the city with smaller plans, only to be turned away, or ignored completely.  We know of at least 1, Intuition.  Hard for them to even get a call back, then the city told them to scram basically.  So maybe there have beena hundred offers that have gone ignored.  Maybe each just wanted a small piece of the Shipyards for a plan, but the city's handling of it's land inventory has been abysmal at best.

QuotePretty sure ay least one RFP  has been issued on this parcel in the past, but nothing real ever came from it.

I think that was just for activation of the land in the meantime.

DeCamp from the Mayor's office has been very clear.  Statutes require an RFP, even if it is merely perfunctory.  As to others "winning" the RFP based on subdividing into small parcels, there is a difference between an RFP and a bidding process.  So forget it.  The RFP is basically the equivalent of getting a home inspection after you have a contract on your house.

Quote from: downtownbrown on February 10, 2015, 09:29:01 AM
The RFP is basically the equivalent of getting a home inspection after you have a contract on your house.

umm...no!

The RFP process will ask for interested parties to propose development, timing, and financing plans.  It will be a very similar process to the one just concluded by JEA on the old Southbank Generating Station site. 

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 10, 2015, 10:22:48 AM

Quote from: downtownbrown on February 10, 2015, 09:29:01 AM
The RFP is basically the equivalent of getting a home inspection after you have a contract on your house.

umm...no!

The RFP process will ask for interested parties to propose development, timing, and financing plans.  It will be a very similar process to the one just concluded by JEA on the old Southbank Generating Station site.

Right on. If there are actually any that come forward with plans after the RFP I sure hope it's enough to at least be taken seriously enough that it forces Khan to modify his plans if they are not up to par, enough to win out. It feels too late to even go back and divide the land which obviously should have been discussed around the time of intuitions inquiries, and that sucks. So now we just wait and hope for the best next week.

Hey Shad, while you're at it, how about developing this new parcel that just came up.

http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2015/02/12/editorial-city-cant-wait-around-after-liberty.html?ana=e_du_pub&s=article_du&ed=2015-02-12&u=WlI+uS2dnrpUQEXzA1dC/Q0a72b012&t=1423772791

Tomorrow's the day that we finally get some details on Khan/Lamping's plan.

Can't wait to hear what they propose.

I am interested in seeing what is presented.

The cynic in me remembers being a student at UNF and discussing the "billion dollar mile" Shipyards project in 2001 in class.

maybe the project will look something like this......lol
The latest condo project in downtown Miami.....

http://youtu.be/olIVBSb5lA8

I'm anxious especially after seeing the Everbank Club Seat renovations posted today on Jaguars.com. Khan really gets things done period.

Anticipation until 11 o'clock!!! :)

Sounds like the Adams is almost certainly part of the proposal.

Quote from: pierre on February 17, 2015, 09:20:30 AM
Sounds like the Adams is almost certainly part of the proposal.

Yep, Lamping called the Adams group personally to invite them to today's event.

Quote from: KenFSU on February 16, 2015, 01:34:59 PM
Tomorrow's the day that we finally get some details on Khan/Lamping's plan.

Can't wait to hear what they propose.

But are you prepared for the whine fest that will most likely ensue?  ;)

For anyone wanting to watch the Jaguars State of the Union address the link is here: http://www.jaguars.com/live/

For those watching, does it seem like Lamping played it down a bit?  He said Khan would share some of his ideas for the Shipyards.  We'll find out soon enough, but that doesn't sound like a full proposal...

Quote from: InnerCityPressure on February 17, 2015, 10:58:06 AM
For those watching, does it seem like Lamping played it down a bit?  He said Khan would share some of his ideas for the Shipyards.  We'll find out soon enough, but that doesn't sound like a full proposal...

I am sure just some conceptual ideas. Since the city will have to request a proposal, why would they show a full proposal at this time?  So any potential competition would know in advance and take advantage of any comment about some of the negative items and improve upon them in their own proposal?

Not to mention no reason tomgetmtoo fa ahead of things.  I mean since he indicated a desire to be involved in the development, what has the city done to even allow the process to move forward?  Nada!

Based on Lamping's numbers, growth this year is really incredible, especially when you consider how poorly the team played.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

These guys really know what they are doing.

Boulevard of Broken Dreams?

Nailed it.

Wow. Impressive.

Palm trees, palm trees everywhere. 

Wooooooooooow!!! ;D ::)

Jaw.  Dropped.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B-D5e0-IUAAKvds.jpg)

Nobody poo poo on Shad's plans yet?

They're talking about incorporating Hogans Creek and connecting springfield

(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/550x317q90/r/911/PoM6Jq.jpg)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/600x317q90/r/537/qWQ4zI.jpg)

I see this as his test for Jacksonville.  If the city is not able to embrace moving the city forward which a plan like this certainly would do and we continue to bicker among ourselves about the usual stuff we do, then perhaps that will be his impetus to say Jax doesn't deserve the Jags long term.  Honestly, I would not say I blamed him at that point.

Looks great

Here is the video they showed during the presentation

https://vimeo.com/119653089

Incredible presentation.

They definitely did their homework with this one.
Let's make it happen!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B-D-XoECMAAGihQ.jpg:large)

(http://i.imgur.com/dBbTEz5.jpg)

The practice field structure is something

It looks good, but I see all kinds of places someone would fall to their deaths.

The link for the video above would not work for me.  You can watch it on the bottom of the Jax Biz journal linked below:

http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2015/02/17/shad-khans-shipyards-plans-includes-hotel.html

wow thats pretty wild. So does this take over metro park as well

Quote from: edjax on February 17, 2015, 12:07:55 PM
I see this as his test for Jacksonville.  If the city is not able to embrace moving the city forward which a plan like this certainly would do and we continue to bicker among ourselves about the usual stuff we do, then perhaps that will be his impetus to say Jax doesn't deserve the Jags long term.  Honestly, I would not say I blamed him at that point.

I was thinking the same thing. If he gives the city favorable terms in regard to sales price, public access, and facilitating the process, but they still manage to drop the ball, then I think he'll have his reason to pick up his ball and go home. At that point, I wouldn't blame him either.

Quote from: jaxlore on February 17, 2015, 12:46:19 PM
wow thats pretty wild. So does this take over metro park as well

There is an ampitheater component to this plan. My guess is that replaced the aging structure at Metro Park.

Quote from: jaxlore on February 17, 2015, 12:46:19 PM
wow thats pretty wild. So does this take over metro park as well

From the slides it doesn't look like it effects Met Park. Although I'd guess MP would have to be reimagined.

Okay, COJ, the ball is in your court now.

Quote from: peestandingup on February 17, 2015, 12:51:43 PM

Quote from: jaxlore on February 17, 2015, 12:46:19 PM
wow thats pretty wild. So does this take over metro park as well

From the slides it doesn't look like it effects Met Park. Although I'd guess MP would have to be reimagined.

DIA is planning redesign anyway. It's in the CRA.

Well with the mayoral election coming up and a huge change over in the city council coming. I am keeping my fingers crossed.

If this does end up replacing Metro Park I wonder if that land can be put up for sale by the city to potential aquarium, hotel, retailers etc. I'd like to see the fairgrounds replace Metro at the least.

BTW..does anyone know why AquaJax was not included into the fold. Where they left out and deemed to be unfeasible? I think their design would visually blend with the architecture of the shipyards.

I guess we'll build an amphitheater here so the people on the south bank can complain about the noise again?

Quote from: jaxlore on February 17, 2015, 01:00:39 PM
Well with the mayoral election coming up and a huge change over in the city council coming. I am keeping my fingers crossed.

I don't think that is a coincidence.

Quote from: Marle Brando on February 17, 2015, 01:04:19 PM
BTW..does anyone know why AquaJax was not included into the fold. Where they left out and deemed to be unfeasible? I think their design would visually blend with the architecture of the shipyards.

I'm pretty sure AquaJax moved their site *outside* of the Shipyards footprint. Or at least, more in the fold of MP than the Shipyards. http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2014-12-23/story/vision-downtown-aquarium-within-sight

Are you all sure you don't want this instead?  ;)

(http://downtownjacksonville.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/1524732_489698431145336_1748459992_n.jpg)

I had such high hopes for this announcement that I didn't think my expectations could possibly be met. Shouldn't have doubted Khan, as this far exceeds my best-case scenario for the property. Unlike so many other "leaders" in Jacksonville, it is blatantly clear that these guys truly get it. I mean, really get it. In the same way that they have a vision for the Jaguars, they have a vision for a better Jacksonville. I love everything about their vision for the Shipyards. I love the integration of the river. I love the branding. I love the focus on mixed-use. I love the pedestrian bridge, amphitheater, and world class park. It's an amazing vision, and one that will instantly make real estate between the north bank and the Shipyards very, very desirable.

Now, it's time for Jacksonville to sh*t or get off the pot. Khan is a businessman, and he's obviously going to want concessions from the city in return for bankrolling the development of this property. To me, whatever concessions we provide upfront will be well worth it in the long run. Strategically, this ties the Jaguars to Jacksonville beyond the life of their lease. This results in one of the wealthiest men on the planet being heavily invested in the success of our downtown. This keeps the Jaguars in the sports district long-term, rather than seeking a suburban stadium down the line. Opportunities like this come around but once or twice in a lifetime. It's far too important to screw up.

As a city, we need to move heaven and earth to make this happen.

Quote from: BoldCityRealist on February 17, 2015, 01:19:26 PM

Quote from: Marle Brando on February 17, 2015, 01:04:19 PM
BTW..does anyone know why AquaJax was not included into the fold. Where they left out and deemed to be unfeasible? I think their design would visually blend with the architecture of the shipyards.

I'm pretty sure AquaJax moved their site *outside* of the Shipyards footprint. Or at least, more in the fold of MP than the Shipyards. http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2014-12-23/story/vision-downtown-aquarium-within-sight

Sounded like AquaJax was originally in talks with Khan to include the aquarium inside the Shipyards plan, but Khan obviously went another way. With the amenities of the Shipyards plan, I wouldn't mind if an aquarium just took over most of Met Park at this point. Aside from some concerts here & there, its mostly underutilized.

Hopefully they figure out this & the Landing redesign & they all compliment each other in purpose/layout. Then you'll actually have an awesome downtown district to write home about. :)

^KenFSU, does this accurately describe your reaction to first seeing this proposal today?

(http://knight.knationu.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/34/3170343c253825cb1580ba0.gif)

Quote from: KenFSU on February 17, 2015, 01:53:11 PM
I had such high hopes for this announcement that I didn't think my expectations could possibly be met. Shouldn't have doubted Khan, as this far exceeds my best-case scenario for the property. Unlike so many other "leaders" in Jacksonville, it is blatantly clear that these guys truly get it. I mean, really get it. In the same way that they have a vision for the Jaguars, they have a vision for a better Jacksonville. I love everything about their vision for the Shipyards. I love the integration of the river. I love the branding. I love the focus on mixed-use. I love the pedestrian bridge, amphitheater, and world class park. It's an amazing vision, and one that will instantly make real estate between the north bank and the Shipyards very, very desirable.

Now, it's time for Jacksonville to sh*t or get off the pot. Khan is a businessman, and he's obviously going to want concessions from the city in return for bankrolling the development of this property. To me, whatever concessions we provide upfront will be well worth it in the long run. Strategically, this ties the Jaguars to Jacksonville beyond the life of their lease. This results in one of the wealthiest men on the planet being heavily invested in the success of our downtown. This keeps the Jaguars in the sports district long-term, rather than seeking a suburban stadium down the line. Opportunities like this come around but once or twice in a lifetime. It's far too important to screw up.

As a city, we need to move heaven and earth to make this happen.

+100000000000

Quote from: thelakelander on February 17, 2015, 01:35:41 PM
Are you all sure you don't want this instead?  ;)

(http://downtownjacksonville.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/1524732_489698431145336_1748459992_n.jpg)

I am sure we know of one person who most likely does.

Quote from: thelakelander on February 17, 2015, 01:58:28 PM
^KenFSU, does this accurately describe your reaction to first seeing this proposal today?

(http://knight.knationu.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/34/3170343c253825cb1580ba0.gif)

Yes, Ennis.

I would definitely call that a fair representation :D :D :D

I wish I could share in this excitement, but all we have is some fantasy architecture at his point.  Yes, it looks nice but so did all the other plans (TriLegacy, Landmar, etc.) before them. Okay, maybe this one is better than any of those, but what is going to get this off the drawing board and into reality?  What is he bring to the table and what is he expecting others to bring? What is going to come first, and will the market dictate what if anything actually gets built?

As a municipal election is about to happen, what is he asking for, so we can see who is willing to support it?  It all just seems like pie in the sky at this point.  Help me believe different. 

Quote from: edjax on February 17, 2015, 02:02:18 PM

Quote from: KenFSU on February 17, 2015, 01:53:11 PM
I had such high hopes for this announcement that I didn't think my expectations could possibly be met. Shouldn't have doubted Khan, as this far exceeds my best-case scenario for the property. Unlike so many other "leaders" in Jacksonville, it is blatantly clear that these guys truly get it. I mean, really get it. In the same way that they have a vision for the Jaguars, they have a vision for a better Jacksonville. I love everything about their vision for the Shipyards. I love the integration of the river. I love the branding. I love the focus on mixed-use. I love the pedestrian bridge, amphitheater, and world class park. It's an amazing vision, and one that will instantly make real estate between the north bank and the Shipyards very, very desirable.

Now, it's time for Jacksonville to sh*t or get off the pot. Khan is a businessman, and he's obviously going to want concessions from the city in return for bankrolling the development of this property. To me, whatever concessions we provide upfront will be well worth it in the long run. Strategically, this ties the Jaguars to Jacksonville beyond the life of their lease. This results in one of the wealthiest men on the planet being heavily invested in the success of our downtown. This keeps the Jaguars in the sports district long-term, rather than seeking a suburban stadium down the line. Opportunities like this come around but once or twice in a lifetime. It's far too important to screw up.

As a city, we need to move heaven and earth to make this happen.

+100000000000

I totally agree.  I was blown away by the proposal.  Khan's plan for the Shipyards has the potential to be Jacksonville's Inner Harbor or Bricktown.

Quote from: peestandingup on February 17, 2015, 01:57:08 PM

Quote from: BoldCityRealist on February 17, 2015, 01:19:26 PM

Quote from: Marle Brando on February 17, 2015, 01:04:19 PM
BTW..does anyone know why AquaJax was not included into the fold. Where they left out and deemed to be unfeasible? I think their design would visually blend with the architecture of the shipyards.

I'm pretty sure AquaJax moved their site *outside* of the Shipyards footprint. Or at least, more in the fold of MP than the Shipyards. http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2014-12-23/story/vision-downtown-aquarium-within-sight

Sounded like AquaJax was originally in talks with Khan to include the aquarium inside the Shipyards plan, but Khan obviously went another way. With the amenities of the Shipyards plan, I wouldn't mind if an aquarium just took over most of Met Park at this point. Aside from some concerts here & there, its mostly underutilized.

Hopefully they figure out this & the Landing redesign & they all compliment each other in purpose/layout. Then you'll actually have an awesome downtown district to write home about. :)

Give the courthouse parking lot  to Aqua jax!

Wow we have to do this.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/600x317q90/r/537/qWQ4zI.jpg)
Can't tell if this would make it all the way to the S Line Urban Greenway.

No. 8th Street is the north boundary. The S-Line is just north of 12th. However, Boulevard is wide enough to retrofit with paint to form a connection, assuming JTA doesn't modify it for BRT.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/entertainment-complex-planned-next-to-stadium

Quote"If we're really going to bring about something that's transformative, it can't be limited to the 70 acres along the St. Johns River," said Lamping, referring to the Shipyards and Metropolitian Park property that Iguana proposes to develop.

He said a 250,000-square-foot entertainment complex could go on Lot J.

The surface parking lot fronts Gator Bowl Boulevard and sits between Daily's Place and Georgia Street. The team controls the lot, according to its lease with the city.

"We have tremendously underdeveloped property right behind us," Lamping told more than 300 retail real estate brokers, developers and builders.

So Sleiman has to 2020 or 2021 to get the Landing's act together or invest in a different niche before the grand opening of a similar DT venue...most likely by Cordish.

250,000 square feet?

That's pretty ambitious.

That's twice the size of the Landing.

Also twice the size of Ballpark Village in St. Louis.

Should be interesting to see what happens with this.

Quote from: KenFSU on January 26, 2018, 10:24:57 AM
250,000 square feet?

I picture something like http://www.xfinitylive.com/ with a ton of open space, like if the center of the Landing was covered and shared hangout space for all the restaurant/bars...  The landing is 125k sq ft indoors.  So 250k sq ft isn't all that big as an addition to Daily's Place and Everbank. 

Quote from: KenFSU on January 26, 2018, 10:24:57 AM
250,000 square feet?

That's pretty ambitious.

That's twice the size of the Landing.

Also twice the size of Ballpark Village in St. Louis.

Should be interesting to see what happens with this.

I've been to Ballpark Village a few times and it's quite the venue. I can only imagine Khan and the Mayor walking in and saying "yeah we can do this... and twice as big"

Needs to be some residential in the mix if there's really going to be retail here. Hard to see it working otherwise. The Landing couldn't survive with current residential levels, no reason to think a second, competing Landing would pull it off.

I doubt you'll see the type of retail we tend to associate with Jax shopping centers. They'll basically be doing something like Cordish's Infinity Live! Instead of Best Buy, you'll probably end up with a Jaguars Store next to a bunch of themed bars and restaurants that will attempt to pull in people going to all the venues around there.

(http://www.xfinitylive.com/images/xfinity-map.png)

1. NE Event Plaza
2. Broad Street Bullies Pub
3. Live! VIP Lounge
4. Victory Beer Hall
5. 1100 Social
6. NBC Sports Arena
7. PBR Bar and Grill
8. Philly Marketplace
9. Plaza, Miller Lite Concert Stage and EP Henry Road to Victory
10. NBC Sports Turf Field
P -- Parking
V -- Valet

http://www.xfinitylive.com/

^That would probably work better. Basically taking the parts of the Landing that still work. Residential would still be good, though.

I wouldn't expect to see them or Cordish experiment with residential in this phase. Nothing they could build now would keep traditional retail open there. So they'll have to follow the other Cordish sports models.

QuoteBasically taking the parts of the Landing that still work.

Hooters and FL/GA?

Hmmmmmmmmmm... Opening up a three year old thread to talk about something that hopefully will start construction in summer 2019.

It's still Jacksonville, folks.  In the three years since last post we did get improved scoreboards and a nice amphitheater, so that's something.

The District also announced about 3 years ago and that may die soon.  Berkman II still decorating the riverfront.  I am nor sure where The Four Seasons Jacksonville is supposed to fit in our downtown. Has anyone figured that out yet?

Quote from: vicupstate on January 26, 2018, 05:20:01 PM

QuoteBasically taking the parts of the Landing that still work.

Hooters and FL/GA?

Ha!

But no, the restaurants, bars and central plaza facing the waterfront. Many of those (including Hooters) continue to do pretty well despite all the other problems of the Landing.

Quote from: MusicMan on January 26, 2018, 05:41:56 PM
Hmmmmmmmmmm... Opening up a three year old thread to talk about something that hopefully will start construction in summer 2019.

It's still Jacksonville, folks.  In the three years since last post we did get improved scoreboards and a nice amphitheater, so that's something.

The District also announced about 3 years ago and that may die soon.  Berkman II still decorating the riverfront.  I am nor sure where The Four Seasons Jacksonville is supposed to fit in our downtown. Has anyone figured that out yet?

Years ago I said it would be decades before the Shipyards or District ever materialized. However, this is a city that likes to keep its one-trick pony mega captain save-a-day projects in the forefront of downtown redevelopment news. Guys like Rummell stay in the news as tumbleweeds still blow across these sites. In the meantime, people like Eugene Profit quietly come in, do their thing and move on to the next project. Here's a few projects that weren't proposed in 2013 that have either been completed or are well on their way to completion...

MD Anderson Cancer Center
Baptist Health Parking Garage (necessary for the proposed redevelopment of that medical campus)
Broadstone Riverhouse
Brooklyn Riverside
Brooklyn Station
Lofts of LaVilla
Houston Street Manor
Lofts of Monroe
FSCJ Dorms

The smaller projects are where the bread is actually being buttered. We just have to get in the habit of getting them clustered. However, at that appears to have started taking place in the Northbank finally.

Quote from: Tacachale on January 26, 2018, 06:02:46 PM

Quote from: vicupstate on January 26, 2018, 05:20:01 PM

QuoteBasically taking the parts of the Landing that still work.

Hooters and FL/GA?

Ha!

But no, the restaurants, bars and central plaza facing the waterfront. Many of those (including Hooters) continue to do pretty well despite all the other problems of the Landing.

IMO, at this point the Landing's ball is in Sleiman's court. It's location provides it with the ability to be more than an entertainment center. There's no COJ money coming from Curry and Curry will still be in office when this thing at Everbank Field opens. At least Sleiman now knows he's got about a three or four year timeline to play with. There's no reason the Landing can't be given a bath, remodeled and revamped with new uses to take advantage of its centralized location.

I definitely think you could see a smaller retail component like the one around Wembley.

(http://c8.alamy.com/comp/EN8KR4/london-designer-outlet-shopping-mall-centre-and-hilton-hotel-wembley-EN8KR4.jpg)

From a clustering standpoint, I think you have to move the convention center downtown in order for a retail component to work.

Quote from: JaxAvondale on January 26, 2018, 09:22:03 PM
From a clustering standpoint, I think you have to move the convention center downtown in order for a retail component to work.

Hundreds of millions of dollars are going to be spent to build a convention center next to the Landing/Hyatt while at the same time a brand new, twice as big, competitor to the Landing is going to go up a mile or so in the opposite direction?

None of this is making sense.

Saw this comment on the T-U story.

(https://snag.gy/ghFDCY.jpg)

Curious if anyone had any memories/further information on this Music Shed?

Doing some Googling, I'm finding some references to a "Riverside Music Shed" that hosted a few shows (Blink 182, Silverchair, Bob Dylan, Widespread Panic) in 1999.

Was this the bandshell at Metro Park, or a different, short-lived venue elsewhere?

Quote from: KenFSU on January 27, 2018, 10:35:56 AM
Saw this comment on the T-U story.

(https://snag.gy/ghFDCY.jpg)

Curious if anyone had any memories/further information on this Music Shed?

Doing some Googling, I'm finding some references to a "Riverside Music Shed" that hosted a few shows (Blink 182, Silverchair, Bob Dylan, Widespread Panic) in 1999.

Was this the bandshell at Metro Park, or a different, short-lived venue elsewhere?

Even if the Lot J project doesn't include residential, I feel it makes Met Park and Shipyards and other parts of the area much more appealing for mid-rise residential.  I'm assuming this will include food venues, bars, and retail?

The Music Shed was on teh Shipyards site. It was pretty much a shed too. Search the T-U website and you will proably find some articles.  Noise from the concerts raised complaints from residents in St. Nicholas, the neighborhood across the river from the sheds.   

Quote from: jaxnyc79 on January 27, 2018, 10:54:36 AM
Even if the Lot J project doesn't include residential, I feel it makes Met Park and Shipyards and other parts of the area much more appealing for mid-rise residential.  I'm assuming this will include food venues, bars, and retail?

^Yeah, like Ennis posted a page or two back, if it's a Cordish development (which all signs point to), then it most likely include a major sports bar, space for live music, and a collection of other restaurants and bars. Doubt they'll be much retail, beyond maybe a Jacksonville sports (Jags, Jumbo Shrimp, Icemen, Armada, Giants, UNF, etc.) shop.

Here's Cordish's sizzle reel for similar developments they've done around the country:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqzZpSLdqxM

One thing that I do like about Cordish is that there's a conscious effort made with each of their developments to make them uniquely local. I could see a Safe Harbor/Jumbo Shrimp restaurant, or an M-Shack/Medure concept, or a Black Sheep/Insetta restaurant, or something from Forking Amazing fitting in really nicely. Ditto with any of our local breweries. Ironic that this same local concept may have helped turn the Landing around.

And you better believe that, if this project gets built, it's going to be a death blow to the Jacksonville Landing as we currently know it. It would take 100% of business for Florida-Georgia from the Landing. It would greatly cannibalize New Year's Eve, as Cordish venues typically host massive NYE parties. It would steal gameday business from visiting fans, who still think the Landing is the place to go. It would even steal concert business from the Landing, though it feels like they've slowly phased out live music.

P.S. If you look at Cordish's Live developments around the country, they've got their tropes. You can pretty much guess what a Jacksonville Live would look like. There's bound to be a giant central sports bar with a 30'+ HD television. Other restaurants and bars surrounding it. You can bet your ass there will be a mechanical bull somewhere. Balconies. Live music venue. Probably a summer country music series. A new year's eve ball drop. Seasonal events. Family days in the summer. Etc.

Texas Live ($250 million; cost split evenly between Texas Ranger and Cordish, plus $50 million in public infrastructure from city):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N9Tm7ft9Xo

Ballpark Village ($100 million; financed by Cordish and the Cardinals; public subsidy via TIF + $25 million in tax credits):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMlrFmGIQMk

Xfinity Live ($150 million; financed by Cordish and Comcast; public subsidy via TIF):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOmaVFFT9p8

4th Street Live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ9rGtIoMBY

Powerplant Live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvv4w2sGF0c

Quote from: KenFSU on January 27, 2018, 12:40:13 PM
P.S. If you look at Cordish's Live developments around the country, they've got their tropes. You can pretty much guess what a Jacksonville Live would look like. There's bound to be a giant central sports bar with a 30'+ HD television. Other restaurants and bars surrounding it. You can bet your ass there will be a mechanical bull somewhere. Balconies. Live music venue. Probably a summer country music series. A new year's eve ball drop. Seasonal events. Family days in the summer. Etc.

Texas Live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N9Tm7ft9Xo

Ballpark Village:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMlrFmGIQMk

Xfinity Live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOmaVFFT9p8

4th Street Live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ9rGtIoMBY

Powerplant Live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvv4w2sGF0c

Serious question, Ken.  Most of these others are in "major league" cities, where if you look at BB (81), FB (8), hockey (41), and BkB (41), there are over half of the days in a year with a home game, and that's not counting pre-season, post-season, etc.  You are going to have 15,000 to 80,000 people in that area for each of those.  Add to that a great selection of concerts happening at the 15,000 seat arena, you've got 250 to 300 nights a year covered.  We don't have that.  We've got the Jags.  We have no MLB, NBA, NHL franchises.  Those teams will draw between 1,000 and 3,000 per game at our minor league level. 

Do you think this will be successful in this town?  I am excited by the prospect of having something worth going to down there, but I imagine I would've felt the same way when they built the Landings, if I had been here back then.  I'm just sensing that there won't be enough "big" nightly events to make it fly.

^The Baseball Grounds of Jacksonville were designed to be able to expand should the time come. MLB commissioner has also said within the last year, they're considering expanding. Of all of the major sports I could see Jacksonville supporting MLB the most (football). If we did land an MLB team this would end up looking like all of the cities mentioned above...

Quote from: jaxjaguar on January 27, 2018, 01:09:06 PM
^The Baseball Grounds of Jacksonville were designed to be able to expand should the time come. MLB commissioner has also said within the last year, they're considering expanding. Of all of the major sports I could see Jacksonville supporting MLB the most (football). If we did land an MLB team this would end up looking like all of the cities mentioned above...

That would be the one that would HAVe to happen, IMO.  That covers almost 1/4 of the days in the year, which is a great start.  Don't know if we have a realistic chance, but I'll keep my reserved optimism on this one.  ;)

Quote from: TimmyB on January 27, 2018, 12:55:20 PM

Quote from: KenFSU on January 27, 2018, 12:40:13 PM
P.S. If you look at Cordish's Live developments around the country, they've got their tropes. You can pretty much guess what a Jacksonville Live would look like. There's bound to be a giant central sports bar with a 30'+ HD television. Other restaurants and bars surrounding it. You can bet your ass there will be a mechanical bull somewhere. Balconies. Live music venue. Probably a summer country music series. A new year's eve ball drop. Seasonal events. Family days in the summer. Etc.

Texas Live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N9Tm7ft9Xo

Ballpark Village:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMlrFmGIQMk

Xfinity Live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOmaVFFT9p8

4th Street Live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ9rGtIoMBY

Powerplant Live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvv4w2sGF0c

Serious question, Ken.  Most of these others are in "major league" cities, where if you look at BB (81), FB (8), hockey (41), and BkB (41), there are over half of the days in a year with a home game, and that's not counting pre-season, post-season, etc.  You are going to have 15,000 to 80,000 people in that area for each of those.  Add to that a great selection of concerts happening at the 15,000 seat arena, you've got 250 to 300 nights a year covered.  We don't have that.  We've got the Jags.  We have no MLB, NBA, NHL franchises.  Those teams will draw between 1,000 and 3,000 per game at our minor league level. 

Do you think this will be successful in this town?  I am excited by the prospect of having something worth going to down there, but I imagine I would've felt the same way when they built the Landings, if I had been here back then.  I'm just sensing that there won't be enough "big" nightly events to make it fly.

My gut sure says no.

Most of these Cordish venues are open 7 days a week, from 11:00 AM to 2:00 AM.

Not sure who's hanging out at the Sports complex until 2:00 AM on weeknights, and the lack of transit doesn't even make it a convenient lunch spot for downtown workers. And even on non-NFL gamedays/events, we're not talking the 18,000-40,000 visitors flooding in for baseball, hockey, or the NBA, we're talking 3,000 for the Icemen, 5,000 maybe for the Shrimp, 4,000 for concerts, etc.

250,000 sf is huge.

Will happily be proven wrong, but it's a tough ask to pack that place every night.

Remind me though, what dense, walkable "entertainment-focused" districts does Jacksonville have currently?  I think it's high time Jax had a product like this.  I actually believe a "modernization" of the Landing would also be a big draw, but Sleiman isn't the guy to do it.  Also, it makes more sense for this district to be around the Stadium and Arena and Daily's Place than the Landing's location.  Generally, people aren't looking for loud, boisterous entertainment just before settling down to the Opera or Symphony.

Also, given Lot J is amidst a sea of parking, there will be the perception that parking is available and just that perception alone could draw more people here than might be enticed to forage for parking around the landing.

Quote from: vicupstate on January 27, 2018, 09:59:11 AM

Quote from: JaxAvondale on January 26, 2018, 09:22:03 PM
From a clustering standpoint, I think you have to move the convention center downtown in order for a retail component to work.

Hundreds of millions of dollars are going to be spent to build a convention center next to the Landing/Hyatt while at the same time a brand new, twice as big, competitor to the Landing is going to go up a mile or so in the opposite direction?

None of this is making sense.

Good ole vic.

Duval Live! will get built, be incredibly successful . . . and vic will still be stuttering that none of this makes any sense. Had they only copied Greenville . . . .

The Landing is in no way, shape or form a similar structure. It is something we've never seen in this market, and it may be something that seriously affects the ability of this city to pull the casual pass-through traffic off of Interstate 95 and convince them to stay a day or three.

Quote from: RattlerGator on January 27, 2018, 02:05:40 PM

Quote from: vicupstate on January 27, 2018, 09:59:11 AM

Quote from: JaxAvondale on January 26, 2018, 09:22:03 PM
From a clustering standpoint, I think you have to move the convention center downtown in order for a retail component to work.

Hundreds of millions of dollars are going to be spent to build a convention center next to the Landing/Hyatt while at the same time a brand new, twice as big, competitor to the Landing is going to go up a mile or so in the opposite direction?

None of this is making sense.

Good ole vic.

Duval Live! will get built, be incredibly successful . . . and vic will still be stuttering that none of this makes any sense. Had they only copied Greenville . . . .

The Landing is in no way, shape or form a similar structure. It is something we've never seen in this market, and it may be something that seriously affects the ability of this city to pull the casual pass-through traffic off of Interstate 95 and convince them to stay a day or three.

Respectfully disagree.

There's no fundamental difference between the big-box entertainment complexes that Cordish is building in the 2010's and the big-box festival marketplaces that Rouse specialized in back in the 80's.

Its just a slightly more modern take on urban renewal in a box.

Quote from: KenFSU on January 27, 2018, 01:14:16 PM
...not talking the 18,000-40,000 visitors flooding in for baseball, hockey, or the NBA, we're talking 3,000 for the Icemen, 5,000 maybe for the Shrimp, 4,000 for concerts, etc.

250,000 sf is huge.

Will happily be proven wrong, but it's a tough ask to pack that place every night.

3 Words:

Ex!

Eff!

El!

;D

Quote from: KenFSU on January 27, 2018, 02:17:11 PM

Respectfully disagree.

There's no fundamental difference between the big-box entertainment complexes that Cordish is building in the 2010's and the big-box festival marketplaces that Rouse specialized in back in the 80's.

Its just a slightly more modern take on urban renewal in a box.

So, your contention is there's no fundamental difference between a festival marketplace with no particular focus (other than a collection of shops in downtown where people no longer shop) with a sports and entertainment marketplace plopped down in a sports and entertainment district with an already existing football stadium, amphitheater, baseball stadium and multi-purpose arena ? ? ?

Yeah . . . I respectfully think you'd benefit from re-thinking that assertion, Ken. With, of course, the rather fundamental understanding that the primary difference between the two is a skin-in-the-game billionaire pushing the latter and a municipality merely incentivizing the former.

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on January 27, 2018, 02:17:57 PM

Quote from: KenFSU on January 27, 2018, 01:14:16 PM
...not talking the 18,000-40,000 visitors flooding in for baseball, hockey, or the NBA, we're talking 3,000 for the Icemen, 5,000 maybe for the Shrimp, 4,000 for concerts, etc.

250,000 sf is huge.

Will happily be proven wrong, but it's a tough ask to pack that place every night.

3 Words:

Ex!

Eff!

El!

;D

Sweet!  That will add another 4,000 people down there 10 nights a year!!!   ;D ;D ;D

Quote from: KenFSU on January 27, 2018, 10:35:56 AM
Saw this comment on the T-U story.

(https://snag.gy/ghFDCY.jpg)

Curious if anyone had any memories/further information on this Music Shed?

Doing some Googling, I'm finding some references to a "Riverside Music Shed" that hosted a few shows (Blink 182, Silverchair, Bob Dylan, Widespread Panic) in 1999.

Was this the bandshell at Metro Park, or a different, short-lived venue elsewhere?

The shed was a fabrication warehouse at the shipyards that had not been torn down at the time. Wish they would have kept it. Oh well.

You can see it in this old Trilegacy photo:

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3913735020_PkvrWGH-L.jpg)

It's the large blue warehouse in the 1980s image below:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/3914233437_wCqnmRF-L.jpg)

Quote from: KenFSU on January 27, 2018, 12:19:06 PM
One thing that I do like about Cordish is that there's a conscious effort made with each of their developments to make them uniquely local. I could see a Safe Harbor/Jumbo Shrimp restaurant, or an M-Shack/Medure concept, or a Black Sheep/Insetta restaurant, or something from Forking Amazing fitting in really nicely. Ditto with any of our local breweries. Ironic that this same local concept may have helped turn the Landing around.

And you better believe that, if this project gets built, it's going to be a death blow to the Jacksonville Landing as we currently know it. It would take 100% of business for Florida-Georgia from the Landing. It would greatly cannibalize New Year's Eve, as Cordish venues typically host massive NYE parties. It would steal gameday business from visiting fans, who still think the Landing is the place to go. It would even steal concert business from the Landing, though it feels like they've slowly phased out live music.

Unfortunately, the proper coordination of projects in downtown isn't going to happen due to politics. However, this doesn't have to be the end of the Landing. At the end of the day, the Landing has a superior centralized location and is within walking distance of the core Northbank residential and office worker population.  It will also be within walking distance of the new hotels, as well as the Omni and Hyatt. It's also one block from a Skyway station....superior location regardless of politics or what takes place in the Sports District.

However, Sleiman will have to carve out a niche that differs from the Cordish model. People have been saying it a while but combine a food hall component, with riverfront restaurants and some limited retail that serves the need of the surrounding population (like a CVS/Walgreens, Staples, etc.) and fill some space with a cultural use, and it will be just fine. Try to go head to head with the Cordish model and it will fail.

In reality, I'm more concerned about the impact on Doro. Seems like Cordish is a corporate play on the same market and same type of tenants.

Quote from: jaxjaguar on January 27, 2018, 01:09:06 PM
^The Baseball Grounds of Jacksonville were designed to be able to expand should the time come. MLB commissioner has also said within the last year, they're considering expanding. Of all of the major sports I could see Jacksonville supporting MLB the most (football). If we did land an MLB team this would end up looking like all of the cities mentioned above...

This isn't realistic. Jax will never have a MLB team (market is way too small) and the Baseball Grounds can't be expanded that large anyway.

Quote from: KenFSU on January 27, 2018, 01:14:16 PM

Quote from: TimmyB on January 27, 2018, 12:55:20 PM

Quote from: KenFSU on January 27, 2018, 12:40:13 PM
P.S. If you look at Cordish's Live developments around the country, they've got their tropes. You can pretty much guess what a Jacksonville Live would look like. There's bound to be a giant central sports bar with a 30'+ HD television. Other restaurants and bars surrounding it. You can bet your ass there will be a mechanical bull somewhere. Balconies. Live music venue. Probably a summer country music series. A new year's eve ball drop. Seasonal events. Family days in the summer. Etc.

Texas Live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N9Tm7ft9Xo

Ballpark Village:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMlrFmGIQMk

Xfinity Live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOmaVFFT9p8

4th Street Live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ9rGtIoMBY

Powerplant Live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvv4w2sGF0c

Serious question, Ken.  Most of these others are in "major league" cities, where if you look at BB (81), FB (8), hockey (41), and BkB (41), there are over half of the days in a year with a home game, and that's not counting pre-season, post-season, etc.  You are going to have 15,000 to 80,000 people in that area for each of those.  Add to that a great selection of concerts happening at the 15,000 seat arena, you've got 250 to 300 nights a year covered.  We don't have that.  We've got the Jags.  We have no MLB, NBA, NHL franchises.  Those teams will draw between 1,000 and 3,000 per game at our minor league level. 

Do you think this will be successful in this town?  I am excited by the prospect of having something worth going to down there, but I imagine I would've felt the same way when they built the Landings, if I had been here back then.  I'm just sensing that there won't be enough "big" nightly events to make it fly.

My gut sure says no.

Most of these Cordish venues are open 7 days a week, from 11:00 AM to 2:00 AM.

Not sure who's hanging out at the Sports complex until 2:00 AM on weeknights, and the lack of transit doesn't even make it a convenient lunch spot for downtown workers. And even on non-NFL gamedays/events, we're not talking the 18,000-40,000 visitors flooding in for baseball, hockey, or the NBA, we're talking 3,000 for the Icemen, 5,000 maybe for the Shrimp, 4,000 for concerts, etc.

250,000 sf is huge.

Will happily be proven wrong, but it's a tough ask to pack that place every night.

My gut says it won't be anywhere near 250,000 square feet of leasable retail. I suspect that number might end up including some office space or be something that could be phased incrementally over time. Could something like a Xfinity Live work? Probably, if designed to be a regional draw. With that said, I'm sure they've down their homework. Khan didn't get to be a billionaire by blowing money. This more realistic than this.....

(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/aPnZey5rKU6XI1Hubmrmett21wY=/902x507/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3418490/SHIPYARDS_AERIAL_1_CREDIT_POPULOUS.0.jpg)

Quote from: jaxnyc79 on January 27, 2018, 01:50:04 PM
Remind me though, what dense, walkable "entertainment-focused" districts does Jacksonville have currently?

The Elbow in Downtown and Five Points in Riverside would be two examples. The Elbow is more authentic and has the potential to be a lot more, depending on what happens with the old courthouse site and the alley between Ocean and Newnan. The Cordish product is more of something that attracts white suburbanites and sports fans on game days. Not sure it will have the same daily appeal with people attracted to places popping up in Riverside and Springfield. Just look at 4th Street Live in Louisville. It attracts a different crowd from the places in the Highlands.

Quote from: KenFSU on January 27, 2018, 02:17:11 PM

Quote from: RattlerGator on January 27, 2018, 02:05:40 PM

Quote from: vicupstate on January 27, 2018, 09:59:11 AM

Quote from: JaxAvondale on January 26, 2018, 09:22:03 PM
From a clustering standpoint, I think you have to move the convention center downtown in order for a retail component to work.

Hundreds of millions of dollars are going to be spent to build a convention center next to the Landing/Hyatt while at the same time a brand new, twice as big, competitor to the Landing is going to go up a mile or so in the opposite direction?

None of this is making sense.

Good ole vic.

Duval Live! will get built, be incredibly successful . . . and vic will still be stuttering that none of this makes any sense. Had they only copied Greenville . . . .

The Landing is in no way, shape or form a similar structure. It is something we've never seen in this market, and it may be something that seriously affects the ability of this city to pull the casual pass-through traffic off of Interstate 95 and convince them to stay a day or three.

Respectfully disagree.

There's no fundamental difference between the big-box entertainment complexes that Cordish is building in the 2010's and the big-box festival marketplaces that Rouse specialized in back in the 80's.

Its just a slightly more modern take on urban renewal in a box.

The thought of attracting suburbanites is the same but the retail mix is totally different. Festival marketplaces were pretty much enclosed malls (without department stores as anchors) with the same specialty retailers you'd find in Rouse's suburban regional malls. Cordish's urban projects tend to be dominated with themed destination restaurants and bars clustered together around live entertainment. The common link between the two are destination restaurants and live entertainment. An example of them co-existing is Power Plant Live! and Harborplace in Baltimore.  Harborplace recently changed their tenant mix to go more cultural (replaced retailers with a Ripley's) and food hall with a few destination restaurants. That's the model the Landing should take, IMO.

Quote from: thelakelander on January 27, 2018, 05:27:07 PM

Quote from: KenFSU on January 27, 2018, 02:17:11 PM

Quote from: RattlerGator on January 27, 2018, 02:05:40 PM

Quote from: vicupstate on January 27, 2018, 09:59:11 AM

Quote from: JaxAvondale on January 26, 2018, 09:22:03 PM
From a clustering standpoint, I think you have to move the convention center downtown in order for a retail component to work.

Hundreds of millions of dollars are going to be spent to build a convention center next to the Landing/Hyatt while at the same time a brand new, twice as big, competitor to the Landing is going to go up a mile or so in the opposite direction?

None of this is making sense.

Good ole vic.

Duval Live! will get built, be incredibly successful . . . and vic will still be stuttering that none of this makes any sense. Had they only copied Greenville . . . .

The Landing is in no way, shape or form a similar structure. It is something we've never seen in this market, and it may be something that seriously affects the ability of this city to pull the casual pass-through traffic off of Interstate 95 and convince them to stay a day or three.

Respectfully disagree.

There's no fundamental difference between the big-box entertainment complexes that Cordish is building in the 2010's and the big-box festival marketplaces that Rouse specialized in back in the 80's.

Its just a slightly more modern take on urban renewal in a box.

The thought of attracting suburbanites is the same but the retail mix is totally different. Festival marketplaces were pretty much enclosed malls (without department stores as anchors) with the same specialty retailers you'd find in Rouse's suburban regional malls. Cordish's urban projects tend to be dominated with themed destination restaurants and bars clustered together around live entertainment. The common link between the two are destination restaurants and live entertainment. An example of them co-existing is Power Plant Live! and Harborplace in Baltimore.  Harborplace recently changed their tenant mix to go more cultural (replaced retailers with a Ripley's) and food hall with a few destination restaurants. That's the model the Landing should take, IMO.

I know it's too early to know this, but what are the chances this project will do away with the retention pond?  Also, if i recall correctly, that area isn't really "urbanized."  Any chance we'll see narrow, grid-patterned streets with sidewalks created for facade entrances?  Is that how you turn a stadium parking lot into another inner city block? 

South of Adams Street was never urbanized with a street grid. That stretch of Gator Bowl Boulevard was the St. Johns Shipbuilding Company during WWII (the office is the white building with the green roof across the street from the Baseball Grounds) and remained an industrial yard right up unto the area was redeveloped in the 1990s for the arrival of the Jags. It's way too early but I doubt the pond is going anywhere. Lot J is big enough for what they want to do. However, the parking lot is a mega block grid, so I wouldn't be surprised if the circulation remained a grid.

Quote from: KenFSU on January 27, 2018, 12:19:06 PM
And you better believe that, if this project gets built, it's going to be a death blow to the Jacksonville Landing as we currently know it. It would take 100% of business for Florida-Georgia from the Landing. It would greatly cannibalize New Year's Eve, as Cordish venues typically host massive NYE parties. It would steal gameday business from visiting fans, who still think the Landing is the place to go. It would even steal concert business from the Landing, though it feels like they've slowly phased out live music.

Isn't Lot J the one directly adjacent to Daily's Place? Why would you need to build an additional massive stage when all you need is a big sidewalk leading people to the 5,000 seat amphitheater?

Now, I could see them still building smaller stages, maybe up to 1,000 max. But they just don't need to build anything bigger than that when they're right next door to something that works well, and is already owned by the people who will own this.

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on January 27, 2018, 02:17:57 PM

Quote from: KenFSU on January 27, 2018, 01:14:16 PM
...not talking the 18,000-40,000 visitors flooding in for baseball, hockey, or the NBA, we're talking 3,000 for the Icemen, 5,000 maybe for the Shrimp, 4,000 for concerts, etc.

250,000 sf is huge.

Will happily be proven wrong, but it's a tough ask to pack that place every night.

3 Words:

Ex!

Eff!

El!

;D

Haha, very funny.

But I can't imagine Khan and the Jags allowing an existing franchise to exist in the same city with them. And more than that, are they supposed to share a stadium? Can they even do that?

Quote from: thelakelander on January 27, 2018, 04:52:37 PM
Unfortunately, the proper coordination of projects in downtown isn't going to happen due to politics. However, this doesn't have to be the end of the Landing. At the end of the day, the Landing has a superior centralized location and is within walking distance of the core Northbank residential and office worker population.  It will also be within walking distance of the new hotels, as well as the Omni and Hyatt. It's also one block from a Skyway station....superior location regardless of politics or what takes place in the Sports District.

However, Sleiman will have to carve out a niche that differs from the Cordish model. People have been saying it a while but combine a food hall component, with riverfront restaurants and some limited retail that serves the need of the surrounding population (like a CVS/Walgreens, Staples, etc.) and fill some space with a cultural use, and it will be just fine. Try to go head to head with the Cordish model and it will fail.

In reality, I'm more concerned about the impact on Doro. Seems like Cordish is a corporate play on the same market and same type of tenants.

Quote from: thelakelander on January 27, 2018, 05:27:07 PM
The thought of attracting suburbanites is the same but the retail mix is totally different. Festival marketplaces were pretty much enclosed malls (without department stores as anchors) with the same specialty retailers you'd find in Rouse's suburban regional malls. Cordish's urban projects tend to be dominated with themed destination restaurants and bars clustered together around live entertainment. The common link between the two are destination restaurants and live entertainment. An example of them co-existing is Power Plant Live! and Harborplace in Baltimore.  Harborplace recently changed their tenant mix to go more cultural (replaced retailers with a Ripley's) and food hall with a few destination restaurants. That's the model the Landing should take, IMO.

It sounds like these kinds of talks are where it might help for the city or at least someone to bring Cordish and Sleiman into a room and say, "Great! We love these ideas, and we're excited about how Jacksonville can grow. We'd really like for these two centers to have a place in our entertainment market, and so we're just floating some ideas on what we hope will help keep things cohesive." Or something of that nature.

The mayor's office is pretty much done with Sleiman. Sleiman is better off doing his shopping center on his own....just like he would plan any of his other properties. Know the market and do something that can be supported by it.

Quote from: thelakelander on January 27, 2018, 07:22:35 PM
The mayor's office is pretty much done with Sleiman. Sleiman is better off doing his shopping center on his own....just like he would plan any of his other properties. Know the market and do something that can be supported by it.

Didn't the city threaten to terminate the lease within 30 days in their filing?

Quote from: thelakelander on January 27, 2018, 07:22:35 PM
The mayor's office is pretty much done with Sleiman. Sleiman is better off doing his shopping center on his own....just like he would plan any of his other properties. Know the market and do something that can be supported by it.

Does Sleiman have the financing to transform the Landing?

He's got financing to build centers significantly larger than the Landing in the suburbs. It shouldn't take a ton to clean up the Landing. Structurally it's fine. The tenant mix just needs to evolve.

Quote from: jaxnyc79 on January 27, 2018, 07:41:07 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on January 27, 2018, 07:22:35 PM
The mayor's office is pretty much done with Sleiman. Sleiman is better off doing his shopping center on his own....just like he would plan any of his other properties. Know the market and do something that can be supported by it.

Didn't the city threaten to terminate the lease within 30 days in their filing?

I'm not sure. Doesn't matter anyway. Sleiman will have that property until he decides to sell it.

So in that case, does that mean the city will turn its focus completely to Jax Live! and focus on getting that built? Because it sounds like if the city is ready to wash its hands of Sleiman, they might as well just tell him he's on his own and work on something they might have more ease getting done.

Curry has already said they're done with Sleiman. They're tied up in court now but outside of that, there's nothing legally stopping Sleiman from doing something with the Landing's buildings now. However, it may be complicated in that the city owns the land surrounding it. So Sleiman can fix the buildings but will COJ clean up the courtyard, docks, riverwalk, etc.?

Quote from: RattlerGator on January 27, 2018, 02:05:40 PM

Quote from: vicupstate on January 27, 2018, 09:59:11 AM

Quote from: JaxAvondale on January 26, 2018, 09:22:03 PM
From a clustering standpoint, I think you have to move the convention center downtown in order for a retail component to work.

Hundreds of millions of dollars are going to be spent to build a convention center next to the Landing/Hyatt while at the same time a brand new, twice as big, competitor to the Landing is going to go up a mile or so in the opposite direction?

None of this is making sense.

Good ole vic.

Duval Live! will get built, be incredibly successful . . . and vic will still be stuttering that none of this makes any sense. Had they only copied Greenville . . . .

The Landing is in no way, shape or form a similar structure. It is something we've never seen in this market, and it may be something that seriously affects the ability of this city to pull the casual pass-through traffic off of Interstate 95 and convince them to stay a day or three.

KenFSU described adequately in Reply #520 what I base my skepticism on.     

As far as the other Cordish projects, they were built in locations that were vibrant to begin with. I can't speak to Louisville in that regard but Cordish was merely building on the vibrant foundations that were already established in Philly, St. Louis and Baltimore. Arlington had MLB to work off of. As Lake stated JAX will never have MLB. 

As Lake alluded to, the Landing was retail oriented originally, but it most definitely did try to reposition itself as the destination entertainment/restaurant complex for DT and the region as a whole, later in it's life. Neither proposition worked because unlike those other Cordish projects, it was the pioneer not building on a well established environment. 

The only way I can see Cordish doing this project is with very substantial public subsidy. And like the Landing even that may not be enough to make it successful. Even then, it is hard to see 250k SF in the initial construction.

JAX is trying to walk before it crawls and I have never seen that work.

BTW, I would LOVE to be proven wrong on the Sports district becoming a massive success, because it would benefit me personally.

It would take a very sharp person to thread a very thin needle to make the Landing succeed if Cordish is a mile away. Lunch alone is not sufficient or the Food Court would not have struggled as it has. I don't see Sleiman as that person and whoever that person might be, they would probbaly not want to even try if they didn't own the dirt underneath.   

Quote from: vicupstate on January 29, 2018, 10:08:50 AM

BTW, I would LOVE to be proven wrong on the Sports district becoming a massive success, because it would benefit me personally.

Vic, I don't doubt this at all even if you wouldn't personally benefit. But you do for some weird reason consistently underestimate Shad Khan and Mark Lamping. That's a bigtime mistake.

QuoteIt would take a very sharp person to thread a very thin needle to make the Landing succeed if Cordish is a mile away. Lunch alone is not sufficient or the Food Court would not have struggled as it has. I don't see Sleiman as that person and whoever that person might be, they would probbaly not want to even try if they didn't own the dirt underneath.   

Sleiman needs to work out a deal with the city and move the hell on.

I'll say this: That area of Philadelphia isn't historically known for it's vibrancy. Prior to Xfinity Live it was stadiums and parking lots off of I-95. The way Jacksonville's sports complex is (located close to downtown but not in it) was the trend really, and Football really hasn't changed that trend in many places due to the huge parking need for comparatively so few days of the need.

Now, to the points made above there is likely a sporting event at either Citizens Bank Park (Phillies), Lincoln Financial Field (Eagles), or the Wells Fargo Center (Flyers and 76ers). With all 4 major sports something is going on nearly every night that will draw 15k minimum and much more if it's a football game or the Phillies are in contention.

My feeling is it depends on the mix of things. Jacksonville's urban core doesn't have a decent sports bar so that could be an immediate draw. However, my feeling is it needs to be more than Bars and Restaurants. Other challenges include the connection to the rest of downtown. It's not a major distance, but it's far enough that walkability isn't great (especially given what the walk looks like - Bay is okay but the rest is awful).

Regardless of all of this - Khan seems to be interested in dumping his money into it, and I think that if he has full control of the site (and by that, I think you sell him the dirt and make it truly his), then I think he spends his way into making it work. I'm sure he will ask the city for something. So, I think it overall depends on how much he asks the city for.

This is where whatever JTA is going to do with the Skyway would be helpful. I realize the astronomical cost of an elevated connection, but the Bay Street Leg is likely the one place where I actually see benefit, with a stop at the future convention center site and at the shipyards before a final stop at the Sports Complex.

I wouldn't count on JTA making or breaking this. It will take more than a 12 passenger AV shuttle bus to have real impact on its feasibility.

Rattler, Sleiman just needs to run the Landing like a shopping center. Fill it with basic stuff that the downtown market lacks and it will be fine. McDonald's, IHOP, Waffle House, Office Depot, Walgreens, Hooters, Twin Peaks, 7-11 etc. Then repurpose the food court concept as a small food hall. Who cares if it doesn't have tenants that attract suburbanites? Fill it with that stuff and I bet it will be more viable than a themed entertainment center at Everbank Field.

I would expect the Jags will have done their homework on this and will pick things that'll be successful. I also don't see a reason to think it'll really be 250,000 square feet simply because the lot is that size. There may be a major garage component to make up for lost Jags parking, they may just be leaving some of the space, etc.

That said, I think the Landing comparison is more apt than not. It's the same concept updated for the retail reality of 2018, which is less focused on shops and such, and more on food and entertainment. That is, the things that still work at the Landing, and which would be the Landing's focus already if the owners ever decided to update. Also like the Landing, long-term success will be determined by things like design, management, and the health of Downtown in general.

Even within the restaurant, entertainment and dining realm, there's diversity. Neither the Landing or Khan's project will be able to effectively corner that market. Khan could put up SJTC and it doesn't mean there's no niche for the Landing. Its future will depend on management's ability and desire to capitalize on the market and its built in assets. Norfolk is a good example of this. Waterside couldn't compete head to head with the regional mall two blocks away. However, the new Cordish revamp (which did include city money) carves out a niche in the marketplace for what is now known as Waterside District. There's a retail niche the Landing could provide that a self contained entertainment district will never provide. The big question is if Sleiman will be willing to spend his own funds on a true remodeling job without public incentives?

Quote from: thelakelander on January 29, 2018, 11:54:38 AM
Rattler, Sleiman just needs to run the Landing like a shopping center. Fill it with basic stuff that the downtown market lacks and it will be fine. McDonald's, IHOP, Waffle House, Office Depot, Walgreens, Hooters, Twin Peaks, 7-11 etc. Then repurpose the food court concept as a small food hall. Who cares if it doesn't have tenants that attract suburbanites? Fill it with that stuff and I bet it will be more viable than a themed entertainment center at Everbank Field.

Lake, agree with your analysis and Waterside in Norfolk is an apt comparison. 

If the Landing makes that change, I assume it'd still make sense for it to better integrate the alley space at the foot of Hogan, between the Landing and the T-U Center, and market it for waterfront dining?

Quote from: thelakelander on January 29, 2018, 12:34:18 PM
The big question is if Sleiman will be willing to spend his own funds on a true remodeling job without public incentives?

I think he'll want a similar deal to the one that Alvin Brown offered, where the city ponies up for all the infrastructure improvements around the perimeter of the Landing (landscaping, riverwalk, courtyard, etc.) and he covers the structural elements. Unlike Brown and his $12 million though, I don't see Curry giving Sleiman 12 cents.

Quote from: KenFSU on January 29, 2018, 12:53:06 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on January 29, 2018, 12:34:18 PM
The big question is if Sleiman will be willing to spend his own funds on a true remodeling job without public incentives?

I think he'll want a similar deal to the one that Alvin Brown offered, where the city ponies up for all the infrastructure improvements around the perimeter of the Landing (landscaping, riverwalk, courtyard, etc.) and he covers the structural elements. Unlike Brown and his $12 million though, I don't see Curry giving Sleiman 12 cents.

Correct. Yes, the Landing *could* survive this and other setbacks. We haven't seen much indication from Sleiman that they'll try, without a big check from the city.

Quote from: KenFSU on January 29, 2018, 12:53:06 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on January 29, 2018, 12:34:18 PM
The big question is if Sleiman will be willing to spend his own funds on a true remodeling job without public incentives?

I think he'll want a similar deal to the one that Alvin Brown offered, where the city ponies up for all the infrastructure improvements around the perimeter of the Landing (landscaping, riverwalk, courtyard, etc.) and he covers the structural elements. Unlike Brown and his $12 million though, I don't see Curry giving Sleiman 12 cents.

Well that's the problem. I'm not of the belief that Brown's plan made any sense or that the Landing needs to be torn down, bridge ramps removed along with $12 million in public incentives. If that's the only solution Sleiman is willing to pursue, then the Landing is out of luck. I'm talking about remodeling the existing structure and filling it with a different tenant mix.

Until there are more permanant residents DT, or at least DT is truly a destination for locals, I don't see that retail would work just off of office workers. It has never made a profit and brand name stores left even with reduced or free rent. The original 'it's about time' plans for the Landing were the best yet proposed, and that was because it added condos, offices and a hotel to what was already there as will as a rehab.       

Quote from: vicupstate on January 29, 2018, 01:52:24 PM
Until there are more permanant residents DT, or at least DT is truly a destination for locals, I don't see that retail would work just off of office workers. It has never made a profit and brand name stores left even with reduced or free rent. The original 'it's about time' plans for the Landing were the best yet proposed, and that was because it added condos, offices and a hotel to what was already there as will as a rehab.       

For reference:

(http://jacksonville.com/sites/default/files/styles/slideshow__640x360/public/JaxLandingRenderingInfoGraphic.JPG)

Quote from: KenFSU on January 29, 2018, 02:55:34 PM


For reference:

(http://jacksonville.com/sites/default/files/styles/slideshow__640x360/public/JaxLandingRenderingInfoGraphic.JPG)

When was this, Ken?  Recently or years ago?

Quote from: vicupstate on January 29, 2018, 01:52:24 PM
Until there are more permanant residents DT, or at least DT is truly a destination for locals, I don't see that retail would work just off of office workers. It has never made a profit and brand name stores left even with reduced or free rent. The original 'it's about time' plans for the Landing were the best yet proposed, and that was because it added condos, offices and a hotel to what was already there as will as a rehab.       

Agreed - the plans were actually really well done until Sleiman and Peyton got into a pissing contest. Then, the free money in the market ran out.

Ken, that wasn't the "It's About Time" rendering. That was the Sleiman-Brown plan.

^Yes. The "About Time" proposal was much better.

Timmy B, that was years ago, under the previous mayoral administration. It was going to be heavily subsidized by the city (the Sleimans were major supporters of Mayor Brown). Mayor Curry wouldn't give anything for the Landing, and Sleiman refused to update the property without it, and here we are.

Quote from: Steve on January 29, 2018, 03:00:35 PM
Ken, that wasn't the "It's About Time" rendering. That was the Sleiman-Brown plan.

Wait, I'm confused.

Sleiman-Brown didn't include a hotel component, office space, or pedestrian plaza at the end of Hogan, and it was separated from the river by that horrible road.

(http://jacksonville.com/sites/default/files/styles/slideshow__640x360/public/LandingNew0827_1.jpg?itok=RGcECsKL)

Quote from: KenFSU on January 29, 2018, 03:21:05 PM

Quote from: Steve on January 29, 2018, 03:00:35 PM
Ken, that wasn't the "It's About Time" rendering. That was the Sleiman-Brown plan.

Wait, I'm confused.

Sleiman-Brown didn't include a hotel component, office space, or pedestrian plaza at the end of Hogan, and it was separated from the river by that horrible road.

(http://jacksonville.com/sites/default/files/styles/slideshow__640x360/public/LandingNew0827_1.jpg?itok=RGcECsKL)

Ken, what you posted and the black and white graphic above are essentially the same plan, just a couple versions of it. I'll try to find the "It's About Time" version.

Vic, it depends on the type of retail. The downtown market is large enough to support a 10,000 square foot CVS or Walgreens. Even DT Tampa has had one for years, even during its downturn. We don't have a food hall in town at all. That concept would be more of a regional draw which would certainly appeal and attract DT workers during the weekdays also. If Hooters most successful location in Jax is at the Landing, then certainly a chain like McDonald's can make a go at it. Dollar General is in the process of adding 900 locations across the country. Perhaps their DGX concept could work here...sort of also serving as the little grocery store the Northbank lacks. You could even do mixed use with the existing structure, making some of it office, cultural (maybe the visitors center/museum this city lacks) or even craft brewery. While traditional retail won't work at the Landing or sports district, there are options that can work in DT Jax if the right spaces were available. Unfortunately, we've never tried with the Landing. Instead, for the last 15 years we've only focused on big dreams that require lots of public subsidies. Like the first concept. No way was there a market then to build an office tower. Same goes for all those towers in the District and Shipyards plans of today.

The first Sleiman redevelopment concept:

(http://www.jacksonville.com/images/111303/13840_400.jpg)

(http://www.jacksonville.com/images/111303/13835_400.jpg)

(http://www.jacksonville.com/images/111303/13836_400.jpg)

^ I saw nothing wrong this concept above, wasn't this supposed to be done before the 2005 Super Bowl? I believe the city didn't like those parking garages

Yes, people hit the fan over the buildings blocking river views and it being Sleiman owning the Landing.

Quote from: thelakelander on January 29, 2018, 06:14:51 PM
Yes, people hit the fan over the buildings blocking river views and it being Sleiman owning the Landing.

OK, well now they have a dumpster in the Landing and a downtown about as vital as a barstool.

I would personally like to see this on the FCN site and maybe something similar to what is in Louisville with 4th Street Live and incorporate the Doro Buildings into it.

I think the sea of parking around with certainly help. I also would not count on Jax attracting a second franchise anytime soon and 100% not the MLB. Logistically, the NHL would probably be the best bet with a few failing franchises and the nearest franchise in Tampa but the NBA may be a better cultural fit. Neither will be coming for another 15-20 years in a best case scenario. This will have to be driven by MiLB, concerts, events at the Arena, and the Jags.

Yeah, we're not getting another franchise -- we're fortunate as hell to have the Jaguars. But, the minor league baseball franchise combined with the football stadium, multipurpose arena, and the amphitheater are a good base to make something pop fairly regularly. Especially if they can think through how to make a unique facility work in this unique market.

Obviously, I think they are going to figure it out. It may be 250,000 square feet but not using the mix found in other markets; they are going to incorporate some thing or things we're sorely lacking in this downtown and add that to dress out the space.

I'm suspecting there will be some interesting connection with the amphitheater. The lot is immediately adjacent and fronts the roadway that will almost certainly have additional traffic added from the removal of the elevated ramps from the Hart Bridge.

Quote from: RattlerGator on January 29, 2018, 09:49:38 PM
Yeah, we're not getting another franchise -- we're fortunate as hell to have the Jaguars. But, the minor league baseball franchise combined with the football stadium, multipurpose arena, and the amphitheater are a good base to make something pop fairly regularly. Especially if they can think through how to make a unique facility work in this unique market.

Obviously, I think they are going to figure it out. It may be 250,000 square feet but not using the mix found in other markets; they are going to incorporate some thing or things we're sorely lacking in this downtown and add that to dress out the space.

I'm suspecting there will be some interesting connection with the amphitheater. The lot is immediately adjacent and fronts the roadway that will almost certainly have additional traffic added from the removal of the elevated ramps from the Hart Bridge.

What's the chance that this could eventually include a new arena for the Armada? Any possibility of Robert Palmer looking into getting them back downtown?

Perhaps having the Jags, the Jumbo Shrimp, the Armada, plus (maybe?) the Giants together and constantly occurring one after the other could be enough critical mass to keep people coming back. Eventually get the hotel+Convention Center in, maybe see if Jax Aqua is still a thing that could get built, and there's the foundation for a growing entertainment district and expanded urban center.

Quote from: thelakelander on January 29, 2018, 06:14:51 PM
Yes, people hit the fan over the buildings blocking river views and it being Sleiman owning the Landing.

The problem was Sleiman and Peyton, who never cared about DT in the first place, hated each other. The design actually OPENED up the best view to the river, which is Laura St. in exchange for closing off the Hogan St. view with a building.   

Quote from: thelakelander on January 29, 2018, 04:02:08 PM
The first Sleiman redevelopment concept:

(http://www.jacksonville.com/images/111303/13840_400.jpg)

(http://www.jacksonville.com/images/111303/13835_400.jpg)

(http://www.jacksonville.com/images/111303/13836_400.jpg)

Thanks for the clarification guys.

Interesting plan.

Did some Googling, and it looks like Cameron Kuhn was planning a 33-story tower in the vicinity as well.

Here's a Times-Union article with all the details of what Sleiman proposed in 2003:

QuotePublished Thursday, November 13, 2003

Sleiman announces $250 million plan to expand The Landing

By GREGORY RICHARDS
The Times-Union,

In an extravagant gathering tonight at The Jacksonville Landing, local developer Toney Sleiman will publicly unveil his proposal costing up to $250 million to remake the struggling downtown shopping and entertainment complex.

Adding offices, condominiums, hotels and more -- possibly higher-end -- shops are part of Sleiman's plan to reinvigorate the 16-year-old center and make it a vital part of not only downtown but of the region. Perhaps the most notable change will be a 60-foot-wide opening carved through the northern section of the building, essentially extending Laura Street to the St. Johns River for pedestrians.

Jacksonville developer Toney Sleiman's plans for The Jacksonville Landing include slicing a 60-foot-wide opening, which would allow those on Laura Street to see and walk to the river. This phase would also include redoing the Landing exterior with a Mediterranean-style stucco finish. -- Artist renderings by Ron Garnett

Also in the works are up to three parking garages, providing badly needed downtown parking spaces for almost 3,000 cars.

It will cost between $200 million and $250 million.

"This is the postcard of the city of Jacksonville," Sleiman said of the Landing. "This has got to happen. We have to make this happen.

"It's for me, it's for my family, it's for my kids, it's for your kids ... It's for the people of Jacksonville."

A model by Zona & Associates illustrates what The Jacksonville Landing will look like following an expansion. GARY WILCOX/The Times-Union

Yet Sleiman's proposal is not a sure bet. His plan rests on a foundation of city incentives, which he says are essential for the project. Neither Sleiman or the city would reveal how much incentive money might be asked for or given.

But to pave the way for his request, Sleiman has been showing his plans to City Council members and other city officials for weeks to drum up political support. Still, he faces a tight city budget.

Plans call for expanding the Landing in three phases, with the first opening in January 2005 -- just in time for Jacksonville's Super Bowl. It would increase the size of the complex from 222,000-square feet to between 1.1 million square feet and 1.2 million square feet. Here's how the project breaks down:

Adding offices, condominiums, hotels and more shops are part of Sleiman's plan to reinvigorate the 16-year-old center and make it a vital part of not only downtown but of the region. -- Artist renderings by Ron Garnett

Phase 1: Involves slicing a 60-foot-wide opening into the Landing, which would allow those on Laura Street to see and walk to the river. This phase would also include redoing the exterior of the Landing with a Mediterranean-style stucco finish; developing a 120-space daily use marina; and building a 960-space parking garage that would be raised off the ground to allow people to see the river beyond. The garage will connect to the Landing and the adjacent Times-Union Center for the Performing Arts with a covered walkway. It will require Hogan Street to be closed south of Water Street.

Construction of those components will begin in March, pending City Council approvals, and should be finished by January 2005.

A model by Zona & Associates illustrates what The Jacksonville Landing will look like following an expansion. GARY WILCOX/The Times-Union

A six- to eight-story building will eventually be constructed between the river and parking garage. It will house offices, condominiums and retail, with a narrow base wrapped in a glass skin to allow people to see through to the river. At some point, Sleiman also plans to build a boutique hotel on top of the garage.

Phase II: Incorporates a second, 960-space parking garage between the east side of the Landing and the Main Street bridge. Also to be built is a second, six- to eight-story mixed-use building with stores, offices and condominiums. This building, with a look similar to that of the nearby 11 E. Forsyth apartment tower, will face the river.

Construction of this phase will begin when there is enough demand, Sleiman said.

Phase III: Comprises a 1,000-space parking garage to be built on the existing parking lot between the Main Street bridge and the Adam's Mark hotel. Fronting the river will be a 25-story building with stores, offices and condominiums.

Hear about the plans

Toney Sleiman is publicly presenting his plans for remaking The Jacksonville Landing at 5:30 p.m. today. The festivities, to be held at the Landing, include a chorale, swing band and fireworks.

Again, market demands will determine the timing of this work, Sleiman said.

Besides securing city incentives, another critical part of this project is attracting up to three national, "destination" restaurants, Sleiman said, none of which are currently on the First Coast. Sleiman would not reveal names because no leases have been signed.

But project drawings list The Cheesecake Factory and Brio, an Italian grille. Other names shown are Marriott, a hotel chain, and a Barnes & Noble bookstore. Sleiman said those names are only meant to show the types of tenants he is courting.

As for current Landing tenants, Sleiman said they are welcome to remain as long as they maintain their stores well.

One feature missing from the plans is a barge that would serve as a floating bandstand. "I was ahead of myself on that," Sleiman said. "You can't really bring a barge in and put bands on it."

Instead, he'll widen a portion of the Northbank Riverwalk and build a small stage there.

Sleiman's proposal has largely been greeted warmly by many in City Council. But financing hasn't been discussed yet.

"He's creating a destination, one that will benefit the rest of downtown," said Councilwoman Suzanne Jenkins, whose district includes the Landing. "And not only is he creating a destination, he's creating a place to park when you get there -- that's pretty comprehensive."

Sleiman said he's still studying how much it will cost to park in his garages. But he pledged it would be "real economical."

When it comes to incentives, Sleiman said he hasn't determined how much he will seek from the city, but that the number should be available "sometime in the next two weeks."

To allow the Landing to be built in 1985 at a cost of $31.5 million, the city agreed to provide developer Rouse Co. of Columbia, Md. with 8 acres of land, a $10 million loan and 800 parking spaces for Landing patrons. Sleiman bought the Landing from Rouse in August for $5 million.

He could receive such incentives as low-interest loans, tax breaks or the ability to buy the ground the Landing sits on at reduced cost.

City Council President Lad Daniels said in recent years, council has mainly provided incentives for downtown housing projects, such as 11 E. Forsyth and Berkman Plaza. But he said he is open to considering assistance for the Landing proposal, which contains some condominiums, but which mainly has retail and offices.

Another view of the model showing what The Jacksonville Landing will look like following an expansion. GARY WILCOX/The Times-Union

"We're creating a recipe for a successful downtown," Daniels said. "We know what the ingredients are, we're just not sure what the proportions are right now."

One constraint Sleiman is facing is a city budget that is stretched thin this year, and will be even tighter next year, Daniels said.

Mayor John Peyton has not yet reviewed Sleiman's plans, Peyton spokeswoman Heather Murphy said Wednesday afternoon. Murphy said that makes it premature to discuss how much the city might be prepared to offer Sleiman. Peyton is scheduled to attend tonight's gala, she said.

Sleiman said for this version of the project to go ahead, city dollars are essential.

"I have never yet asked the city for a nickel, never, and I have put into this city," Sleiman said. "Now we're asking for incentives. We need help to do this."

If the city doesn't provide enough incentives, Sleiman said he might simply just clean and paint the Landing and bring in tenants from the nearly 100 shopping centers his family owns in Northeast Florida.

He would still make money that way, he said.

"But I think we would hurt ourselves, we would hurt the people of Jacksonville, we would hurt downtown," he added.

Times-Union writer Earl Daniels contributed to this report.

gregory.richardsjacksonville.com, (904) 359-4649

Also, fun Sleiman site on the history of the Landing and it's redevelopment effort:

http://landingfacts.com/images-redevelopment-jacksonville-landing-lawsuit/

Kuhn's project was Riverwatch. We have renderings of all of these dead proposals on this website. Let me find the old article.

Here you go: https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-oct-results-of-the-boom-dead-projects

Quote from: marcuscnelson on January 29, 2018, 11:30:20 PM
What's the chance that this could eventually include a new arena for the Armada? Any possibility of Robert Palmer looking into getting them back downtown?

I'm not convinced Robert Palmer wants anything from the Armada other than Advertising.

Quote from: Steve on January 30, 2018, 09:49:58 AM

Quote from: marcuscnelson on January 29, 2018, 11:30:20 PM
What's the chance that this could eventually include a new arena for the Armada? Any possibility of Robert Palmer looking into getting them back downtown?

I'm not convinced Robert Palmer wants anything from the Armada other than Advertising.

Yeah, no chance. They have to have a league before they start worrying about a new stadium, let alone a downtown stadium.

Quote from: KenFSU on January 30, 2018, 09:27:14 AM
Also, fun Sleiman site on the history of the Landing and it's redevelopment effort:

http://landingfacts.com/images-redevelopment-jacksonville-landing-lawsuit/

So many plans, so little action.

Quote from: jaxnyc79 on January 29, 2018, 06:26:42 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on January 29, 2018, 06:14:51 PM
Yes, people hit the fan over the buildings blocking river views and it being Sleiman owning the Landing.

OK, well now they have a dumpster in the Landing and a downtown about as vital as a barstool.

I'm convinced now that this was about Peyton sticking it to Sleiman. The issue of "blocking Hogan Street" wasn't real - it was simply an easy argument.

Sleiman also wanted to buy the land under the Landing - and I understood it. Banks are hesitant to give money for redevelopment if the land is under a 25 year lease. Somehow everyone thought that if you sold him the land he'd knock the Landing down and build a strip mall. That was idiotic because you could have just sold him the land under the buildings itself essentially forcing him to retain the shape.

It was just an excuse. Rumor has it that Sleiman's Dad and Peyton's Dad (Herb Peyton) don't like each other over how Herb Peyton was treated when they came to Jacksonville. I'd love to say I'm just making this crap up.

Quote from: Steve on January 30, 2018, 01:55:30 PM

Quote from: jaxnyc79 on January 29, 2018, 06:26:42 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on January 29, 2018, 06:14:51 PM
Yes, people hit the fan over the buildings blocking river views and it being Sleiman owning the Landing.

OK, well now they have a dumpster in the Landing and a downtown about as vital as a barstool.

I'm convinced now that this was about Peyton sticking it to Sleiman. The issue of "blocking Hogan Street" wasn't real - it was simply an easy argument.

Sleiman also wanted to buy the land under the Landing - and I understood it. Banks are hesitant to give money for redevelopment if the land is under a 25 year lease. Somehow everyone thought that if you sold him the land he'd knock the Landing down and build a strip mall. That was idiotic because you could have just sold him the land under the buildings itself essentially forcing him to retain the shape.

It was just an excuse. Rumor has it that Sleiman's Dad and Peyton's Dad (Herb Peyton) don't like each other over how Herb Peyton was treated when they came to Jacksonville. I'd love to say I'm just making this crap up.

My favorite Peyton/Landing moment was opening night of Club Paris, the Paris Hilton branded mega-club that was expected to usher in a new era for the Landing.

On opening night, all the local media was there, anticipating Paris Hilton's arrival at the swanky new downtown club.

She no-showed, and instead of Paris Hilton mingling with sharply dressed locals, we got live coverage of John Peyton doing a strange fast-dance surrounded by Jaxons in boot-cut jeans and t-shirts with fish on them.

It was an amazing night/the mid-2000s were weird.

Quote from: Steve on January 30, 2018, 01:55:30 PM

Quote from: jaxnyc79 on January 29, 2018, 06:26:42 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on January 29, 2018, 06:14:51 PM
Yes, people hit the fan over the buildings blocking river views and it being Sleiman owning the Landing.

OK, well now they have a dumpster in the Landing and a downtown about as vital as a barstool.

I'm convinced now that this was about Peyton sticking it to Sleiman. The issue of "blocking Hogan Street" wasn't real - it was simply an easy argument.

Sleiman also wanted to buy the land under the Landing - and I understood it. Banks are hesitant to give money for redevelopment if the land is under a 25 year lease. Somehow everyone thought that if you sold him the land he'd knock the Landing down and build a strip mall. That was idiotic because you could have just sold him the land under the buildings itself essentially forcing him to retain the shape.

It was just an excuse. Rumor has it that Sleiman's Dad and Peyton's Dad (Herb Peyton) don't like each other over how Herb Peyton was treated when they came to Jacksonville. I'd love to say I'm just making this crap up.

Anything Sleiman did or does to the Landing would have to be approved by the Design Review Board or whatever it is called anyway. I agree it was bad blood that was the likely culprit. 

Sounds to me like Peyton behaved like a very tiny man in the whole debacle

Quote from: jaxnyc79 on January 30, 2018, 02:51:23 PM
Sounds to me like Peyton behaved like a very tiny man in the whole debacle

But his button-game was STRONG.

Practically to his navel!

(https://snag.gy/spKmC5.jpg)

So it turns out that the land under Lot J is contaminated.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/entertainment-complex-site-has-challenges

Here we go again...

Makes sense. Everything south of Adams has been shipyards, oil terminals, sawmills, paint plants, etc. for more than a century before the Jags came to town.

I pointed out the contamination issue to Mark Lamping (regarding development of the entire Shipyards site) when he was an in studio guest on WJCT "First Coast Connect" 2 weeks ago and he pretty much said "It isn't an issue."............"The City has a plan" I think was his response.

Hum........

Lamping has always said that the $34M remediation price tag was a rounding error.  But he also has said it'd the city's rounding error, not his.

Quote from: downtownbrown on March 06, 2018, 11:06:48 AM
Lamping has always said that the $34M remediation price tag was a rounding error.  But he also has said it'd the city's rounding error, not his.

A ROUNDING ERROR???   "Yeah, the cost is $0 when rounded to the nearest 100 million."  What on earth could he mean?

I take it to mean that remediation would not stand in the way of a serious developer.  The bank of a serious developer would be miles north of $100M. 

It's Jacksonville, so we will be waiting a LONG time before any finished product at The Shipyards. 

(Ennis has pointed this out several times....)

In the meantime all the HYPE surrounding The District has been a load of horse manure.  3 years wasted.........

And Berkman II, I hear rumors all the time but nothing "finalized." 

And on a parallel thread the 13 tower building in the Aetna Parking lot is being threatened after being approved by DDRB twice.
WTF is going on here.

In the meantime, entities like Vestcor, Alliance Residential, Chance Partners and Profit Investments are quietly doing their thing. Maybe we're just hyping the wrong players and projects?

Nobody's being hyped, just happy for anything, we should be thrilled this property has a chance to be developed instead trying to pit one development over another!!

Quote from: MusicMan on March 07, 2018, 06:23:31 PM
It's Jacksonville, so we will be waiting a LONG time before any finished product at The Shipyards. 

(Ennis has pointed this out several times....)

In the meantime all the HYPE surrounding The District has been a load of horse manure.  3 years wasted.........

And Berkman II, I hear rumors all the time but nothing "finalized." 

And on a parallel thread the 13 tower building in the Aetna Parking lot is being threatened after being approved by DDRB twice.
WTF is going on here.

MusicMan. The answer to your question is in thelakelander's reply # 574. See that link showing all the dead projects it shows. If all those were built, downtown would be a totally different place today. We can't blame the economy for all the dead projects. At some point we have to admit that it's just good ole hick town politics. In other words, good ole Jax at it's best. 

Khan had it right:

"A homeless man in Detroit has more mojo than a millionaire in Jacksonville!"

Quote from: MusicMan on March 10, 2018, 05:30:17 PM
It's Jacksonville, so we will be waiting a LONG time before any finished product at The Shipyards. 

(Ennis has pointed this out several times....)

In the meantime all the HYPE surrounding The District has been a load of horse manure.  3 years wasted.........

And Berkman II, I hear rumors all the time but nothing "finalized." 

And on a parallel thread the 13 tower building in the Aetna Parking lot is being threatened after being approved by DDRB twice.
WTF is going on here...

Khan had it right:

"A homeless man in Detroit has more mojo than a millionaire in Jacksonville!"

Totally disagree.

Khan's worth $7.2 billion.

The Jags have increased in value by over $1.3 billion since he bought the team, driven largely by new NFL television deals.

Meanwhile, the Shipyards have been in limbo for years over relative pocket change, for him.

Maybe he's the one who needs to up his mojo.

If you ignore the big-ticket projects on the periphery of downtown and look at what's actually happened in the last two years in the CBD, you'll find more mojo than you know what to do with. Adkins and his epic battle to bring the Laura Street Trio and Barnett back to life. FSCJ and UNF investing in downtown rehabilitation and expansion. Vestcor bringing affordable housing to LaVilla. JTA's new regional transportation center and First Coast Flyer coming to life. Insetta and Bellwether having a line out the door every day at noon. Forking Amazing spending $4 million to transform one of the city's most endangered buildings into the city's signature steakhouse. Hemming Park's amazing staff and management turning the front porch of our city into a desirable place. Profit bringing new rooms, two new restaurants, and a new rooftop bar to the CBD. Field's food truck court bringing life to a dead city block. The Icemen group bringing hockey back to Jacksonville. The USS Adams group fighting tooth and nail to bring her to Jacksonville.

The 'scrapers might not be going up as fast as people would like, but I'd argue that those aren't the type of projects that give a downtown and its surrounding neighborhoods character. I'd point toward the Intuitions, and the Bold Citys, and the Happy Grilled Cheese, and the Pura and Bold Beans, and River and Post, and Bread and Board, and Crane Ramen, and Black Sheep, and the Memorial Park Association working tirelessly to preserve Jacksonville's crown jewel, and Manifest, and Sweet Pete's, and everyone else fighting to improve the urban fabric of our city.

The Shipyards and District are two big opportunities, but the success or failure of our urban renewal efforts in no way depends on these projects, or the Cordish project, or any other big-box development.

The biggest success is going to come from block-by-block redevelopment of the CBD, a storefront or building at a time, starting from Laura Street and expanding outward.

Ken I love your positive attitude. Unfortuantely I don't think it's matched by reality on the ground. If one drives through downtown today the homeless will outnumber everyone else combined UNLESS there is a special event going on. Khan DID change the team however and that shows he's serious about improving Jacksonville's viability in National Press. Main Street north of downtown (Through 12th Street) is still WAY MORE empty buildings and vacant lots than occupied ones. There are still several large towers and structures downtown that no one seems to know when will ever be re-vitalized.  IMO the "no one knows when or how" scenarios (by that I mean, Old Courthouse, Berk II, Shipyards, District, USS Adams, .....even a new tenant for Burro Bar!)  outweigh all the others you've mentioned. So I'll stick with my belief that we are at least 10 years away (2028) from a downtown where people come from Riverside /Five Points/San Marco/Avondale/Springfield into downtown on a weekend because it offers more than their current neighborhood does. And I'll double down and say by 2028 downtown will still fall short of 10,000 year round residents in the CBD.

Where are we at now with that number, 2000-3000?

Quote from: MusicMan on March 11, 2018, 10:48:52 AM
Ken I love your positive attitude. Unfortuantely I don't think it's matched by reality on the ground. If one drives through downtown today the homeless will outnumber everyone else combined UNLESS there is a special event going on. Khan DID change the team however and that shows he's serious about improving Jacksonville's viability in National Press. Main Street north of downtown (Through 12th Street) is still WAY MORE empty buildings and vacant lots than occupied ones. There are still several large towers and structures downtown that no one seems to know when will ever be re-vitalized.  IMO the "no one knows when or how" scenarios (by that I mean, Old Courthouse, Berk II, Shipyards, District, USS Adams, .....even a new tenant for Burro Bar!)  outweigh all the others you've mentioned. So I'll stick with my belief that we are at least 10 years away (2028) from a downtown where people come from Riverside /Five Points/San Marco/Avondale/Springfield into downtown on a weekend because it offers more than their current neighborhood does. And I'll double down and say by 2028 downtown will still fall short of 10,000 year round residents in the CBD.

Sadly, you're correct Music Man.  I guess everyone gets excited because Jax is going from mere zero to a very small spark.  I live in Manhattan and work for a major Wall Street bank.  We are considering a conference venue for a client gathering, and considered a property in Palmetto Bluffs
Where are we at now with that number, 2000-3000?

Downtown Jax is a dump, and the Jax area is fairly dull and generic.  Some places have been fully ensconced in the ideas of the enlightenment and human progress, and other places and peoples are sitting around and waiting for progress to fail because they believe that the only salvation is in the after-life. 

MusicMan, what do you consider the CBD? What are the borders?

Put a pin on the Times Union PAC and draw a circle with radius of 1 mile?

How many live there?  Maybe 5,000.  Within that circle no one is building single family homes except single digits in Springfield and San Marco.  But if everything planned within that circle gets built (including The District) it might get to 10,000.  You are more of an expert than I am.

According to my Realtor map, that circle encompasses most of The District and most of The Shipyards. So expand it by a quarter mile if that makes sense. That circle reaches pretty well into Springfield, which I personally do not count in the CBD. I'm thinking downtown or SouthBank living, like The Peninsula, Berkman I, The Strand, San Marco Place, Eleven E, The Carling, plus all the smaller pieces of the puzzle. Condo and apartment dwellers, who would be walk up customers for every business downtown that is currently closed on the weekend. Personally do not want to count single family homes in SM that fall within that circle, but I'm willing to.

Quote from: jaxnyc79 on March 11, 2018, 02:09:48 PM

Quote from: MusicMan on March 11, 2018, 10:48:52 AM
Ken I love your positive attitude. Unfortuantely I don't think it's matched by reality on the ground. If one drives through downtown today the homeless will outnumber everyone else combined UNLESS there is a special event going on. Khan DID change the team however and that shows he's serious about improving Jacksonville's viability in National Press. Main Street north of downtown (Through 12th Street) is still WAY MORE empty buildings and vacant lots than occupied ones. There are still several large towers and structures downtown that no one seems to know when will ever be re-vitalized.  IMO the "no one knows when or how" scenarios (by that I mean, Old Courthouse, Berk II, Shipyards, District, USS Adams, .....even a new tenant for Burro Bar!)  outweigh all the others you've mentioned. So I'll stick with my belief that we are at least 10 years away (2028) from a downtown where people come from Riverside /Five Points/San Marco/Avondale/Springfield into downtown on a weekend because it offers more than their current neighborhood does. And I'll double down and say by 2028 downtown will still fall short of 10,000 year round residents in the CBD.

Sadly, you're correct Music Man.  I guess everyone gets excited because Jax is going from mere zero to a very small spark.  I live in Manhattan and work for a major Wall Street bank.  We are considering a conference venue for a client gathering, and considered a property in Palmetto Bluffs
Where are we at now with that number, 2000-3000?

Downtown Jax is a dump, and the Jax area is fairly dull and generic.  Some places have been fully ensconced in the ideas of the enlightenment and human progress, and other places and peoples are sitting around and waiting for progress to fail because they believe that the only salvation is in the after-life.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/dEdmW17JnZhiU/giphy.gif)

The city's definition of the Central Business District is this:

(http://downtownjacksonville.org/Libraries/Header_Titles_Images/Downtown_Boundaries_Map.sflb.ashx)

This is mainly just for planning and zoning purposes (and even there, DDRB and the city often grants exemptions). No one would include Springfield or San Marco below 95 part of downtown, except perhaps informally. There are supposedly about 4k people living across that whole CBD area. Growth in outlying areas like Southbank or Brooklyn is good, and fills in some dead spots on the urban core map, but they don't have a substantially higher impact on Downtown than people living in slightly further out neighborhoods like Springfield, especially with the lack of connectivity that urban Jacksonville has, and isn't doing much about.

The Downtown core, what most people usually would think of as downtown, is much smaller, pretty much the Downtown Vision area in the picture, minus the Southbank, and plus some additional blocks around the boundary. There are fewer than 2k people living there. That's where we'd really need to see population growth for it to impact Downtown's fortunes.

On the plus side, as further out neighborhoods like Brooklyn fill in, development is starting to move into closer neighborhoods like LaVilla. And hotels, college dorms, etc. like we're seeing in the Northbank core, will also definitely help even if it's not traditional housing. It'd be nice if the city had a holistic plan for all this.