I've been in Jacksonville for the past few days and even met with a poster. Here are some observations:
1) Orsay is seriously one of the best restaurants I have ever eaten at. I have eaten there a few times, and each time the drinks are very good, the food is excellent, the service is top notch and the atmosphere is great. Jonathan Insetta and his team of chefs and managers really know what they are doing!!! Can't wait for his new restaurant.
2) Ate at Pele's and it was my first time. Loved the atmosphere, the bar was good, loved the neighborhood feel of it and what they have done to the interior. I thought the food was good and the service was great for a pizza place. Would definitely take out of town guests there for cocktails and a later dinner (but was disappointed that on a Friday night it was crowded at 7-8:30 and then kind of started emptying out despite it being open late).
3) I have now tried almost all of the brews in Jax, and generally speaking I like Bold City's the best but I hear Intuition is more fun to go to.
4) Spent a day in Bold Bean working. Definitely a great and bustling little place. Lots of ideas being thrown around and it is hipster central over in that area. Bakery Moderne - also really really good. That whole strip needs to be replicated as many times over as possible because it is definitely a shining beacon of coolness and activity in a town with a horrible suburban reputation.
5) Mojos is the new Monty's. Loved the $7 top shelf bourbons (can't believe everyone who lives in Jax thinks it's overpriced!!! and I heard people tell me they thought Pele's was overpriced, too!!! WTF). I thought Mojos was trying too hard, though. Loved the patio, but the interior was just too clean and contrived for an "urban whiskey bar".
6) The Ortega Bridge has been closed the last 3 times I have been in town, and I don't come often. That's pretty bad.
7) Lots of young people and first time homebuyers in Riverside-Avondale, but had another conversation with a few people and the Southside is still the big draw for out of towners and young professionals. People kind of consider the Town Center the real center of town. Noticed a banner on one of those crappy frame apts along JTB that said "You could be home by now", referring to the traffic heading "back into town" from the new downtown of Gate Parkway.
8) Yum Yum Tree has the best chicken salad in town.
9) The Southside is landscaped ok and looks nice. Would be a draw for me if I were relocating from a crowded overpriced city.
10) I would consider the intown neighborhoods over the Southside if people took freaking care of their houses and there weren't weeds growing EVERYWHERE. This is a big problem I think. Sure there are cool spots and cool things opening up in places, but the whole area still looks kind of ghetto, and in fact would probably be considered ghetto in some other cities.
11) The courthouse is just the ugliest thing I have ever seen in my life.
12) There are no cabs anywhere. I saw one cab in Avondale during two nights of going to bars there. One. Nobody in Avondale that I could tell was a DD. Cops are everywhere along Roosevelt and generally everywhere. I would be scared as hell to drink and party in Jax. Why aren't there more cabs? I understand one would need to call a cab during the day or basically anywhere during the day (they aren't lined up at the airport either), but at night I would expect a line of cabs everywhere there is some concentration of bars. I guess I have seen them on Bay St, but they must be the only cabs in town.
13) It takes me less time to get through security at Hartsfield, the world's busiest, than JIA, but JIA is a prettier airport and overall is so small it doesn't matter how slow security is.
14) Once again, the drive into town along 95 is dismal. It's just so bad for first impressions. It plays into every stereotype and preconceived notion anyone visiting the city might have. That's not good for business.
15) It's even worse that one of the largest speed traps in the city is every day along Duval Dr once you leave the airport. Have never flown in and not seen 1-3 cars pulled over not half of a mile from the airport entrance. Also not a good first impression for visitors and the easiest thing in the world to fix.
16) Overall I think there are real positive things going on between Riverside and Avondale. People are really in tune with the neighborhoods and all that is going on. Everyone is "supporting local", etc etc. I have heard that San Marco has deteriorated somewhat and it kind of appears that way. I wish we could translate all the good happening in Avondale-Riverside to downtown, and then maybe that would be the glue that would hold the city and its neighborhoods together and ensure that all the neighborhoods grow and thrive and improve together.
Interesting the airport comment, b/c I hate ATL airport and I always have had no problems getting in and out of JIA unlike every visit to Hartsfield. Difficult to believe you couldn't get through JIA quicker than Hartsfield, but anythings possible once.
I thought the air smelled of superiority the last day or two. Really glad we had a strong western breeze.
LOL on the courthouse comment. I don't think I've heard one person think that it didn't look ugly or was completely out of scale.
The Courthouse is in fact ugly on a Monumental Scale of Global proportion , and that is the nicest thing I could think of to say for it.
Simms .. The Ortega Bridge I think has to have some pretty extensive work done on it. I think it was going to be closed for quite some time.
It is sorta big. I suppose the powers in the area expect lots of court projects, lots of crime projects, lots of control over people who need controlling. I suppose it's a money maker for the area. It better be. We've gotta pay for it. It concentrates in one building the overwhelming legal expertise we've all been accustomed to. It exudes power. It exudes expense, and money, and comfort for those those within.
We are seeing a ring around the city of big institutional structures. We've got the jail in the east, FSCJ, FBC, city hall and JEA on the north, and the federal and county courthouses in the west. Looks like the FSCJ and FBC are the largest land users, followed by the courthouses, the jail, then city hall, then JEA.
Thank goodness Maxwell house is there to balance it out somewhat. They don't prosecute or incarcerate anybody, but only produce stuff to make people wake up and think straight. If they can't think straight with coffee, then FSCJ and the FBC are there to urge thinking the right way too. If that doesn't work then they go straight to jail, then back and forth between the jail and the courthouse to see whether they get set free or go to the big house.
I wonder if the underground tunnel is still in the works, the one between the new courthouse and the jail? It's supposed to be a single occupant transfer system, working like the canister and tubes at outside bank tellers, and it too is run by air pressure. The prisoner, one per canister, is to be sucked, or blown, back and forth underground between the jail and the courthouse. The design I saw limited the prisoner weight to about 300 pounds. Otherwise he or she will have to be transferred by van. It was a custom design, submitted by Reynold, Smith and Hills here in Jax, but similar in design to a system used in Chicago or ??. The route I saw on preliminary drawings was down Monroe street. Reminded me of a subway route. Being much smaller however, carrying only one individual, the construction will not be as disruptive; that is, if it is actually built.
Oh yea, the tunnell is to be dug by a machine they call a mole. It will be deeper than a subway so that it will be below the various utilities in the area. That's why it has become a feasible project. Imagine negotiating around all the utilities in the area?
Quote from: thelakelander on April 08, 2012, 10:21:36 PM
LOL on the courthouse comment. I don't think I've heard one person think that it didn't look ugly or was completely out of scale.
The courthouse is "Peyton's Place". If I recall they were going to go vertical, and when peyton got in office they completey changed everything. Does anybody know what the Original design of the courthouse was? Pictures maybe?
Quote from: duvaldude08 on April 09, 2012, 12:35:33 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 08, 2012, 10:21:36 PM
LOL on the courthouse comment. I don't think I've heard one person think that it didn't look ugly or was completely out of scale.
The courthouse is "Peyton's Place". If I recall they were going to go vertical, and when peyton got in office they completey changed everything. Does anybody know what the Original design of the courthouse was? Pictures maybe?
I never thought the courthouse looked bad.
Quote from: duvaldude08 on April 09, 2012, 12:35:33 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 08, 2012, 10:21:36 PM
LOL on the courthouse comment. I don't think I've heard one person think that it didn't look ugly or was completely out of scale.
The courthouse is "Peyton's Place". If I recall they were going to go vertical, and when peyton got in office they completey changed everything. Does anybody know what the Original design of the courthouse was? Pictures maybe?
Used more Gate Concrete building that god awful monster the way it is. :o
Quote from: simms3 on April 08, 2012, 09:38:34 PM
I've been in Jacksonville for the past few days and even met with a poster. Here are some observations:
1) Orsay is seriously one of the best restaurants I have ever eaten at. I have eaten there a few times, and each time the drinks are very good, the food is excellent, the service is top notch and the atmosphere is great. Jonathan Insetta and his team of chefs and managers really know what they are doing!!! Can't wait for his new restaurant.
2) Ate at Pele's and it was my first time. Loved the atmosphere, the bar was good, loved the neighborhood feel of it and what they have done to the interior. I thought the food was good and the service was great for a pizza place. Would definitely take out of town guests there for cocktails and a later dinner (but was disappointed that on a Friday night it was crowded at 7-8:30 and then kind of started emptying out despite it being open late).
3) I have now tried almost all of the brews in Jax, and generally speaking I like Bold City's the best but I hear Intuition is more fun to go to.
4) Spent a day in Bold Bean working. Definitely a great and bustling little place. Lots of ideas being thrown around and it is hipster central over in that area. Bakery Moderne - also really really good. That whole strip needs to be replicated as many times over as possible because it is definitely a shining beacon of coolness and activity in a town with a horrible suburban reputation.
5) Mojos is the new Monty's. Loved the $7 top shelf bourbons (can't believe everyone who lives in Jax thinks it's overpriced!!! and I heard people tell me they thought Pele's was overpriced, too!!! WTF). I thought Mojos was trying too hard, though. Loved the patio, but the interior was just too clean and contrived for an "urban whiskey bar".
6) The Ortega Bridge has been closed the last 3 times I have been in town, and I don't come often. That's pretty bad.
7) Lots of young people and first time homebuyers in Riverside-Avondale, but had another conversation with a few people and the Southside is still the big draw for out of towners and young professionals. People kind of consider the Town Center the real center of town. Noticed a banner on one of those crappy frame apts along JTB that said "You could be home by now", referring to the traffic heading "back into town" from the new downtown of Gate Parkway.
8) Yum Yum Tree has the best chicken salad in town.
9) The Southside is landscaped ok and looks nice. Would be a draw for me if I were relocating from a crowded overpriced city.
10) I would consider the intown neighborhoods over the Southside if people took freaking care of their houses and there weren't weeds growing EVERYWHERE. This is a big problem I think. Sure there are cool spots and cool things opening up in places, but the whole area still looks kind of ghetto, and in fact would probably be considered ghetto in some other cities.
11) The courthouse is just the ugliest thing I have ever seen in my life.
12) There are no cabs anywhere. I saw one cab in Avondale during two nights of going to bars there. One. Nobody in Avondale that I could tell was a DD. Cops are everywhere along Roosevelt and generally everywhere. I would be scared as hell to drink and party in Jax. Why aren't there more cabs? I understand one would need to call a cab during the day or basically anywhere during the day (they aren't lined up at the airport either), but at night I would expect a line of cabs everywhere there is some concentration of bars. I guess I have seen them on Bay St, but they must be the only cabs in town.
13) It takes me less time to get through security at Hartsfield, the world's busiest, than JIA, but JIA is a prettier airport and overall is so small it doesn't matter how slow security is.
14) Once again, the drive into town along 95 is dismal. It's just so bad for first impressions. It plays into every stereotype and preconceived notion anyone visiting the city might have. That's not good for business.
15) It's even worse that one of the largest speed traps in the city is every day along Duval Dr once you leave the airport. Have never flown in and not seen 1-3 cars pulled over not half of a mile from the airport entrance. Also not a good first impression for visitors and the easiest thing in the world to fix.
16) Overall I think there are real positive things going on between Riverside and Avondale. People are really in tune with the neighborhoods and all that is going on. Everyone is "supporting local", etc etc. I have heard that San Marco has deteriorated somewhat and it kind of appears that way. I wish we could translate all the good happening in Avondale-Riverside to downtown, and then maybe that would be the glue that would hold the city and its neighborhoods together and ensure that all the neighborhoods grow and thrive and improve together.
I agree about the court house - if it needed to be that large, they could've at least gone with an interesting design. I know the powers that be in Jax are a bit wary of 'modern' architecture (lest they be stuck with another Haydon Burns library), but really.... there must be some happy medium. I think this garish neoclassical stuff (or is it neo-neoclassical?) is boring and ugly. The court house borders on Stalinist.
I can't really compare JIA and Atlanta, but I think JIA is one of the easiest to go in and out of. I would fly there more if I could get a direct flight. It may not be the most exciting airport, but it's easy to use.
I wouldn't call Orsay 'bad,' but it's far from being one of the best restaurants I've ever eaten in. I've had better French food in greater Jacksonville in the past. I have a few friends who work there and I do think the service is pretty good - though I cringe when they mangle the names of the whiskys.
One of my big problems with Jax nightlife is that it basically encourages drunk driving. I know I did it more than my fair share of times in the past (and am ashamed to admit it). Even if there were cabs about, I would be curious to see if people used them. But I agree about their scarcity.
Quote from: duvaldude08 on April 09, 2012, 12:35:33 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 08, 2012, 10:21:36 PM
LOL on the courthouse comment. I don't think I've heard one person think that it didn't look ugly or was completely out of scale.
The courthouse is "Peyton's Place". If I recall they were going to go vertical, and when peyton got in office they completey changed everything. Does anybody know what the Original design of the courthouse was? Pictures maybe?
Here was the original Cannon designed Duval County Courthouse building:
(http://jacksonville.com/images/062602/met_courthcannon4__138.jpg)
KBJ, the firm who designed the present version, came in second with this design:
(http://jacksonville.com/images/062602/met_kbjcourthouse2_140.jpg)
At one time, the plan was to build a 15-story courthouse about that concept died when Auchter Construction went belly up in 2007.
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=891.0
simms3, Some great observations. Agree about the airport speed traps. Have done a fare share of drop off and pick ups and you do need to give yourself some time to get there. An accident somewhere in Jax and just like that you are scrambling now not to miss a flight. You jump off the interstate and its an adjustment to immediately cut your speed in half if you are about to miss your plane.
The original courthouse concept was gorgeous. What a shame. Thanks for posing all this Simms. I agree about 95 coming south, but I don't think the boringness of south Georgia really helps matters.
Quote from: simms3 on April 08, 2012, 09:38:34 PM
I've been in Jacksonville for the past few days and even met with a poster. Here are some observations:
1) Orsay is seriously one of the best restaurants I have ever eaten at. I have eaten there a few times, and each time the drinks are very good, the food is excellent, the service is top notch and the atmosphere is great. Jonathan Insetta and his team of chefs and managers really know what they are doing!!! Can't wait for his new restaurant.
2) Ate at Pele's and it was my first time. Loved the atmosphere, the bar was good, loved the neighborhood feel of it and what they have done to the interior. I thought the food was good and the service was great for a pizza place. Would definitely take out of town guests there for cocktails and a later dinner (but was disappointed that on a Friday night it was crowded at 7-8:30 and then kind of started emptying out despite it being open late).
3) I have now tried almost all of the brews in Jax, and generally speaking I like Bold City's the best but I hear Intuition is more fun to go to.
4) Spent a day in Bold Bean working. Definitely a great and bustling little place. Lots of ideas being thrown around and it is hipster central over in that area. Bakery Moderne - also really really good. That whole strip needs to be replicated as many times over as possible because it is definitely a shining beacon of coolness and activity in a town with a horrible suburban reputation.
5) Mojos is the new Monty's. Loved the $7 top shelf bourbons (can't believe everyone who lives in Jax thinks it's overpriced!!! and I heard people tell me they thought Pele's was overpriced, too!!! WTF). I thought Mojos was trying too hard, though. Loved the patio, but the interior was just too clean and contrived for an "urban whiskey bar".
6) The Ortega Bridge has been closed the last 3 times I have been in town, and I don't come often. That's pretty bad.
7) Lots of young people and first time homebuyers in Riverside-Avondale, but had another conversation with a few people and the Southside is still the big draw for out of towners and young professionals. People kind of consider the Town Center the real center of town. Noticed a banner on one of those crappy frame apts along JTB that said "You could be home by now", referring to the traffic heading "back into town" from the new downtown of Gate Parkway.
8) Yum Yum Tree has the best chicken salad in town.
9) The Southside is landscaped ok and looks nice. Would be a draw for me if I were relocating from a crowded overpriced city.
10) I would consider the intown neighborhoods over the Southside if people took freaking care of their houses and there weren't weeds growing EVERYWHERE. This is a big problem I think. Sure there are cool spots and cool things opening up in places, but the whole area still looks kind of ghetto, and in fact would probably be considered ghetto in some other cities.
11) The courthouse is just the ugliest thing I have ever seen in my life.
12) There are no cabs anywhere. I saw one cab in Avondale during two nights of going to bars there. One. Nobody in Avondale that I could tell was a DD. Cops are everywhere along Roosevelt and generally everywhere. I would be scared as hell to drink and party in Jax. Why aren't there more cabs? I understand one would need to call a cab during the day or basically anywhere during the day (they aren't lined up at the airport either), but at night I would expect a line of cabs everywhere there is some concentration of bars. I guess I have seen them on Bay St, but they must be the only cabs in town.
13) It takes me less time to get through security at Hartsfield, the world's busiest, than JIA, but JIA is a prettier airport and overall is so small it doesn't matter how slow security is.
14) Once again, the drive into town along 95 is dismal. It's just so bad for first impressions. It plays into every stereotype and preconceived notion anyone visiting the city might have. That's not good for business.
15) It's even worse that one of the largest speed traps in the city is every day along Duval Dr once you leave the airport. Have never flown in and not seen 1-3 cars pulled over not half of a mile from the airport entrance. Also not a good first impression for visitors and the easiest thing in the world to fix.
16) Overall I think there are real positive things going on between Riverside and Avondale. People are really in tune with the neighborhoods and all that is going on. Everyone is "supporting local", etc etc. I have heard that San Marco has deteriorated somewhat and it kind of appears that way. I wish we could translate all the good happening in Avondale-Riverside to downtown, and then maybe that would be the glue that would hold the city and its neighborhoods together and ensure that all the neighborhoods grow and thrive and improve together.
1-I agree, Orsay is a "best of Jacksonville." As far as French food goes, so is French Pantry. Can't wait until Chew opens up in Five Points.
2-Agree w/ you on Pele's. Albeit, I don't think the food is anything to write home about. Haven't been there late, but I'm wondering if anyone from Kickbacks/Loft/Rogue trickle into Pele's around 11ish? Pizza may be too expensive for that crowd. Too bad.
4-The strip w/ Bakery Moderne, 13 Gypsies, Zen Cog, and Bold Bean, with JG across the street, is the best thing Riverside (And Jax in general) has going for it.
5-I just can't get into the new Mojo's, no matter how hard I try. People seem to like it though, and I guess that's all that matters. The porch is too closed in, and the inside is too clean and well organized to give off that "grungy but awesome whiskey bar" feel. Oh well.
7-My first year in law school, in a class of 70, 69 of them thought that Southside/Tinseltown/Town Center WAS Jacksonville. It wasn't until 8 months in they started to realize there WAS a Riverside. Even then, while they all admitted it was awesome/the most city-like experience here, they were fascinated with the apartment/home "options" the Southside offered.
13-Disagree on JAX for ATL airports. Hartsfield is nothing but a fat headache to me. Love the shopping options and crown rooms, though.
14-I agree that the drive in from 95 isn't anything to write home about. But I don't think this is an exception--I think it's the rule. Ever drive to New Orleans from I-10? ATL from I-20? Denver from I-70? St Louis? KC? I mean...with the exception of Asheville, 9/10 "drive ins", to me, are dismal. Loads of box chains (Home Depots?), project housing, sprawl housing, dated high-rises, old cars, etc. I don't think this is a Jacksonville issue, but an everywhere issue. It's just the way cities happen to sprawl out. It's not like you're going to drive through Avondale via 95...THAT BEING SAID, as I've said on this forum, I think Jax can do a much better job of advertising itself on 95..."Come see our beaches!"..."Come see Historic Avondale/Riverside!"..."Come _____". The fact any roadie can drive through Jax and not know they're passing 5 Points as a stop-off exit is horrendous. Honestly, you wouldn't even know Jax existing if you weren't slapped in the face with downtown.
16- +10000000!!!
Simms, thanks for the input. i wish I had known you were in town, we should have grabbed a drink.
In regards to Pele's and Mojo's. I get what you are saying. I have paid far more for far less in other cities, but in Jax it is a different scene. Here, if you are going to charge more, you have to blow people away with quality. In a town where you can get a dinner for 2 for $40 or less at almost anywhere, people are reluctant to shell out $80 for a meal. Orsay has been able to provide the quality that people demand for the higher price, but I don't think Pele's or Mojo's quite hit that mark. Thus, they get some pretty mixed reviews.
My main complaint with Mojo's is the noise. They need to throw up some acoustic panels in the ceiling or a few soft surfaces in order to reduce the mess they currently have. They should also get a set of speakers of their own that they get installed professionally, rather than letter the bands set up however they want. The band puts up low quality speakers pointed at who knows what, the crowd has to talk over them, all of that audio gets reflected off the floor walls and ceiling, so the band has to turn their speakers louder and the cycle repeats. Some well placed speakers at a moderate volume and some sound dampening materials in the peripheral areas would make for a much better experience.
I wish every single day that the Ortega bridge was open again. The first and last 2 miles of my daily runs are exactly the same because I have to go over the Roosevelt bridge to get into and out of Ortega where I love to run.
Quote1) Orsay is seriously one of the best restaurants I have ever eaten at. I have eaten there a few times, and each time the drinks are very good, the food is excellent, the service is top notch and the atmosphere is great. Jonathan Insetta and his team of chefs and managers really know what they are doing!!!
+1 - Amen, best service, best food, best beverages, and great staff. This should be the model for all Jacksonville restaurants to adhere. It reminds me of Food 101 in Atlanta.
Coming to Jacksonville and viewing the courthouse would probably be #100 out of 100 options. It was ugly on Bay Street, why should it be anything different on Monroe? Besides, I won't be going there to hang out and admire the structure. Same with the Yates building, eh, you could put the same people on Beach Blvd, they do the same thing. Its a building, again, eh.
Ortega Bridge is old as dirt, better for the State to get it right and fix it right than to have to crap out on the people who use it and be down for another 9-12 months for silly things that could have been fixed now. Supposed to be open at end of April 2012, but we shall see.
Speed Traps? Really? Pay attention to the road, rather than your cell phone, the car radio, the cloud shaped like a Pizza, or some other stupid obstacle that deters you from focusing on the cars around you and the surroundings. Duval Road is an easy speed trap, cause you know that if you see someone atop OWENS ROAD (The overpass before Duval Road, heading Southbound), you can be pretty sure there is a speed trap coming. Same thing with the FHP who sit off to the side around 95/10, but then again, does one really need to go 100 when travelling around Jacksonville?
JIA vs Hartsfield/Jackson - You can walk to your gate in JIA with relative ease, more open are the gates with the skylights (that leak too), but when you are in Atlanta, there is MUCH more to do outside of the gates and security is pretty good and quick in both. Most I've waiting in Jax was 20 minutes during a holiday season, no big deal, that's why you get there 1-2 hours before your flight, and free wi-fi is great at JIA. Nicer and newer than Atlanta's, but you can go more places when you are in Atlanta, so there are trade-offs.
The Brick in Avondale is about to become the most bland & boring of places to eat in Avondale. They were the first and have done very little to change their menu since they opened. With Seafood, BBQ, Bistro, Sushi, (pizza) and Middle Eastern there, it will be interesting to see how they can last as the boring Brick. Maybe on your next trip, we will see if they have changed since then. Even the American Roadhouse in Atlanta had to change, on Highland Avenue.
The problems with the Ortega bridge aren't the bridge, they already replaced all the machinery and most of the rebar in it, and after all that money somehow it breaks more now than it did before. We're stuck in another one of these typical Jacksonville things where the contractor screws us repeatedly, and gets away with it repeatedly, and we still let it slide. It's like Veterans Arena, you've got pieces falling off a $100mm building, and after all this time all they've managed to make Turner do about it is to run to their engineer and get a second opinion disagreeing on how there aren't 'really' any defects they should have to fix.
I could go on with my list of Jacksonville contracting debacles, I am not sure why we never seem to do anything about it. If this were a contractor doing work on someone's house, they wouldn't get away with it, they'd be sued and forced to make it right. COJ doesn't seem to draw any boundaries with these guys, they just get walked over.
QuoteOrtega bridge
FDOT is in charge of the bridge repairs, if I remember correctly. Not everything is COJ's responsibility.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 09, 2012, 12:39:47 PM
QuoteOrtega bridge
FDOT is in charge of the bridge repairs, if I remember correctly. Not everything is COJ's responsibility.
Well my apologies, it's the state that's getting ripped off then. The State's as bad as COJ about letting contractors walk all over them. Call me nuts but if you pay millions for work that isn't right from day one, they should be forced to come back and fix it. Not be paid more to fix their own error, or get 543 chances at it. At some stage, you fire the screwups, hire someone else, and then go get your money back from the first guy, like any private person would do. You can't just let it go on forever.
I've seen road resurfacing projects, bridge projects, etc., that are falling apart almost as soon as they're completed, and what usually happens is everybody just suffers with it until it gets redone at additional cost. The small handful of times you see even so much as a polite request that the contractor go do something about it, they usually get the finger and that's the end of it, until we pay to do it over again. Worst part about it is the contractors don't get barred from bidding in the future, there are generally little to no repercussions for them. Most state-level construction contracts even have "damages for delay" provisions, but I can count on one hand how many times I've seen the responsible entity actually enforce them.
Only time I've seen it on a bridge was down in Fort Pierce, the FDOT actually did go after a bridge contractor for the DFD clause, and I think they recovered. But it was ridiculous, the guy was like 2 years behind schedule, it basically takes some kind of total outrage before they do anything about it.
^ You are assuming the contractors and the boards of the public agencies are two separate groups.
I'm being vague and generic because I don't have any bridge building experience, but in many other fields when someone wants to 'repair' something that is more than just maintenance, you will always end up with these unknowns that either a.) Drive the cost up exponentially, b.) Drive the required completion time, c.) all of the above. In most cases, it ends up being 'c'.
Again, vague on purpose: General road maintenance finds that the support structure is damaged. RFP for fixing the damaged supports is awarded to lowest bid. The more structure that's removed, then more damage is found. Not to mention the collateral damage incurred through construction methods alone. So instead of the budgeted $4M and 18 months for what appeared to be simple support repairs, the contractor submits a change order for 4 times the original cost at 3x the amount of time required and essentially wants to build a new bridge because they found damage in the piers, pilings, issues at the bedrock, etc.... The 'just make it work with what you've got' clause goes into effect, and you end up with a poor job.
The parts for the Ortega Bridge are no longer manufactured and a company in Chicago has to make them from scratch. That's what I've heard, but it doesn't make the extended and repeated closures less frustrating.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 09, 2012, 01:35:39 PM
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 09, 2012, 12:39:47 PM
QuoteOrtega bridge
FDOT is in charge of the bridge repairs, if I remember correctly. Not everything is COJ's responsibility.
Well my apologies, it's the state that's getting ripped off then. The State's as bad as COJ about letting contractors walk all over them. Call me nuts but if you pay millions for work that isn't right from day one, they should be forced to come back and fix it. Not be paid more to fix their own error, or get 543 chances at it. At some stage, you fire the screwups, hire someone else, and then go get your money back from the first guy, like any private person would do. You can't just let it go on forever.
I've seen road resurfacing projects, bridge projects, etc., that are falling apart almost as soon as they're completed, and what usually happens is everybody just suffers with it until it gets redone at additional cost. The small handful of times you see even so much as a polite request that the contractor go do something about it, they usually get the finger and that's the end of it, until we pay to do it over again. Worst part about it is the contractors don't get barred from bidding in the future, there are generally little to no repercussions for them. Most state-level construction contracts even have "damages for delay" provisions, but I can count on one hand how many times I've seen the responsible entity actually enforce them.
Only time I've seen it on a bridge was down in Fort Pierce, the FDOT actually did go after a bridge contractor for the DFD clause, and I think they recovered. But it was ridiculous, the guy was like 2 years behind schedule, it basically takes some kind of total outrage before they do anything about it.
This isn't just construction, it's penetrating all parts of the government. For example, in military acquisitions, there are some contractors who send parts that are barely functional (sometimes not even that) and the acquisition agent can't do a single thing about it other than order the same part from the same manufacturer until they get a working one. If they try to do something about it, people start complaining about "destroying jobs".
QuoteThe parts for the Ortega Bridge are no longer manufactured and a company in Chicago has to make them from scratch. That's what I've heard, but it doesn't make the extended and repeated closures less frustrating.
Think of it this way, at least those people in Chicago can have jobs and thus reduce the unemployment rate. The broken Ortega Bridge supports companies and families who also have mouths to feed. The more often the Ortega Bridge is broken, the more often we are supporting the companies who employ our citizens!
The last thing our local economy needs is a courthouse that never leaked or never needs to be repaired or even rebuilt. Think about all those lost construction jobs! At least we're resurfacing our major roads like Roosevelt Blvd with asphalt instead of concrete. This way we can do it again in 5 years instead of 30!
How meta- "government incompetence as jobs program".
QuoteAt least we're resurfacing our major roads like Roosevelt Blvd with asphalt instead of concrete.
Are you sure? Maybe I am being dense, but it looks like crete not asphalt. They don't come back and smooth out asphalt, do they? I sure hope that's not asphalt on I-95 South near JTB, you crack your teeth on that stuff.
The detour around the bridge is not worth the added expense of building a foundry to make parts once every 5 years. I'd rather have a true manufacturing city make them anyway, allows us to defer liability to someone else. Eddie and Chuck would agree.
I can't believe no one commented on Ron Chamblin's tale of the pneumatic tube for prisoners. That's a good one - reminds me of a shtick on the Johnny Carson Show. He had an engineer on who was designing a cross-America Canal, coming down the Mississippi and then being dug across the continent to the Pacific. He had charts, graphs, and engineering studies for all to see and explained them in detail. Then Carson says, "That's magnificent, but how are you going to handle the Rocky Mountains." The engineer looks a bit puzzled and says, "The what???" A total put-on and nicely done.
Chamblin also makes another point that should be discussed further: What is "downtown"? For a population the size of ours, we have a disproportionately large downtown if "downtown" goes from the Shipyards to the Convention Center and from Southbank to City Hall. Downtown Vision has its definition of the area, perhaps MJ should come up with one too.
Quote from: WmNussbaum on April 09, 2012, 08:40:53 PM
Downtown Vision has its definition of the area, perhaps MJ should come up with one too.
Why not West to Roosevelt Blvd,South to St.Johns Avenue
That's okay WmNuss. Nobody wanted to engage my foolishness, and I can't blame them. There is work to do, and more serious stuff to talk about. BTW, the borders of the downtown have been discussed on earlier threads. It seems that most of us agree with the borders suggested by DVI. I don't have a map right handy, but I suspect that there is one somewhere on the MJ history. Seems like most have the southern border being the river, the northern being perhaps Union Street. Then on the east is perhaps Liberty Street, and the west is Broad maybe.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 09, 2012, 06:19:26 PM
QuoteAt least we're resurfacing our major roads like Roosevelt Blvd with asphalt instead of concrete.
Are you sure? Maybe I am being dense, but it looks like crete not asphalt. They don't come back and smooth out asphalt, do they? I sure hope that's not asphalt on I-95 South near JTB, you crack your teeth on that stuff.
The detour around the bridge is not worth the added expense of building a foundry to make parts once every 5 years. I'd rather have a true manufacturing city make them anyway, allows us to defer liability to someone else. Eddie and Chuck would agree.
Agree.. the stretch of Roosevelt from San Juan to I-10 is all concrete.. some places have been re poured and all of it has been resurfaced..sort of shaved off of the top of the concrete making it smooth to drive on again...done a nice job with it so far.
Quote from: Anti redneck on April 09, 2012, 12:45:56 AM
I never thought the courthouse looked bad.
+1
It was gonna get criticized by most no matter what, because it went over-budget. I betcha if any of those others plans came to life, and was over budget, people still would come up with 'trendy' put-down terms; The place the Peyton Built, Taj Mahal, blah blah blah. I don't think that it's nearly as bad as many are making it out to be. I laugh at some of the examples posted in the past of other cities Courthouses' that supposed are better than ours; For example, Charlotte has a monstrosity. I predict that the area around the courthouse will get built up with possible relocated bail bondsmen offices' etc. watch.
Quote from: I-10east on April 10, 2012, 12:59:31 AM
Quote from: Anti redneck on April 09, 2012, 12:45:56 AM
I never thought the courthouse looked bad.
+1
It was gonna get criticized by most no matter what, because it went over-budget. I betcha if any of those others plans came to life, and was over budget, people still would come up with 'trendy' put-down terms; The place the Peyton Built, Taj Mahal, blah blah blah. I don't think that it's nearly as bad as many are making it out to be. I laugh at some of the examples posted in the past of other cities Courthouses' that supposed are better than ours; For example, Charlotte has a monstrosity. I predict that the area around the courthouse will get built up with possible relocated bail bondsmen offices' etc. watch.
I just googled a picture and yes. Charolette's courthouse is.........unique.. AKA extremely ugly. It does not even look like a courthouse. Im not sure what it looks like. I would have preferred ours to be a bit different, but its there now and finally built. So I will embrace it in all its ugliness ;D
I'm actually fine with Charlotte's because it comes right up against the street and it doesn't eat up extra blocks of downtown. Coming in at $148 million, it also cost a fraction of what ours did. Last but not least, it includes 10,000 square feet of retail space at street level. I'd take a bland office building at $148 million that fits a compact site right, instead of a $350 million out of scale structure that doesn't, any day.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6174-p1140407.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6217-charlotte-courthouse.jpg)
I won't judge by having seen it in person, but only by the pics Lakelander just put up, but Charlotte's Courthouse is actually quite decent. I'm not sure who the architect of ours is, but that architect should be disbanded from AIA and fired from his job. Our courthouse is not only an insult to neoclassicism, it is out of scale, out of context, and there is not one redeeming factor to it. I can't believe there are people who would disagree, because I thought that was established before it even started coming out of the ground. I'd happily take ANY of the designs from the original competition, and Cannon did a much better job with its neoclassical design (there was another one by a group called Spindela or something like that).
Now we have what we have and it will stick out like a sore thumb for decades because nothing is going to be built around it that could possibly conceal its ugliness. Put it on its side and it would easily be one of the tallest buildings in the skyline.
I guess that 'fine' and 'decent' must be synonyms for 'austere' and 'drab' concerning Charlotte's courthouse. This new Duval courthouse was gonna be a 'no-win' with most of the local general public as soon as it went over budget anyways; Even if it looked like the Capitol Building in DC. Yall might as well get used to it, because it's not going anywhere in our lifetimes. I'm 'really' looking forward to the new 'objective' thread articles when this thing opens. ::)
^The Mecklenberg County Courthouse is an eyesore, but its problems don't begin to compare to ours. While the budget overruns obviously soured peoples' opinions of our courthouse regardless of how it looked, what you're missing is that 1). it's still hideous at whatever price and 2). if Peyton hadn't thrown out the original design and completed work, it wouldn't have gone so far over budget. Some of the cost overruns weren't Peyton's fault, but it was his decision to throw out the original design and start over that gave us the monstrosity as we have it today.
Quote from: simms3 on April 10, 2012, 07:15:22 AM
I won't judge by having seen it in person, but only by the pics Lakelander just put up, but Charlotte's Courthouse is actually quite decent. I'm not sure who the architect of ours is, but that architect should be disbanded from AIA and fired from his job. Our courthouse is not only an insult to neoclassicism, it is out of scale, out of context, and there is not one redeeming factor to it. I can't believe there are people who would disagree, because I thought that was established before it even started coming out of the ground. I'd happily take ANY of the designs from the original competition, and Cannon did a much better job with its neoclassical design (there was another one by a group called Spindela or something like that).
Now we have what we have and it will stick out like a sore thumb for decades because nothing is going to be built around it that could possibly conceal its ugliness. Put it on its side and it would easily be one of the tallest buildings in the skyline.
+1
Spinal Tap on the new courthouse:
Nigel Tufnel: It's like, how much more beige could this be? and the answer is none. None more beige...
The Charlotte courthouse looks like a regular office building and a much better sight knowing it only cost $148 million compared to $350 million. How did they get one for only $148 million?
Quote from: Timkin on April 09, 2012, 11:29:05 PM
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 09, 2012, 06:19:26 PM
QuoteAt least we're resurfacing our major roads like Roosevelt Blvd with asphalt instead of concrete.
Are you sure? Maybe I am being dense, but it looks like crete not asphalt. They don't come back and smooth out asphalt, do they? I sure hope that's not asphalt on I-95 South near JTB, you crack your teeth on that stuff.
The detour around the bridge is not worth the added expense of building a foundry to make parts once every 5 years. I'd rather have a true manufacturing city make them anyway, allows us to defer liability to someone else. Eddie and Chuck would agree.
Agree.. the stretch of Roosevelt from San Juan to I-10 is all concrete.. some places have been re poured and all of it has been resurfaced..sort of shaved off of the top of the concrete making it smooth to drive on again...done a nice job with it so far.
If that's the case then I was mistaken.
Quote from: cityimrov on April 10, 2012, 12:53:54 PM
The Charlotte courthouse looks like a regular office building and a much better sight knowing it only cost $148 million compared to $350 million. How did they get one for only $148 million?
keep in mind that our new courthouse is costing roughly $225 million to construct...the remainder is for renovations to the old Federal courthouse, building the garage, and buying the land
No one is denying that the Duval County Courthouse went over budget, yall are preaching to the choir with that, I said it like three times already on this thread. Lets do a lil' quick fact check in comparing to two totally different courthouses in Charlotte, and Jax.
Building_____________Year Completed______Sq Footage_________No. of Courtrooms
Mecklenburg County Courthouse___2006__________568,000___________________34
Duval County Courthouse________2012__________850,000____________________51
Not even close, so this highly overblown 'we could have used only 148M for our courthouse' argument is just a load of BS. Go on ahead and rehash on the cost of the courthouse again, and mention the so called 'totally suburban' design (it's really urban, but whatever).
Just did the math. We actually still paid a little bit more per courtroom - just using the $225M figure, which excludes the cost of land (which the city overpaid), the garage (which does not get used and is a cash cow), and the old courthouse renovations.
On a per SF basis we also paid more than Charlotte by $4, again using the $225M figure.
That is hilarious that even simple math shows that we got very little for what we paid for (or perhaps we actually got way too much when you think about the absolute dollar figure and how much we constructed).
It should also be noted that Mecklenburg County is now larger and growing MUCH MUCH faster than Duval County. Do we really need a good 50% more courtrooms and 50% more space (Not counting the additional space and rooms in the renovated building)???
This 60 second evaluation allowed me to easily point out how absurd our courthouse is from a numbers standpoint. When $350M of taxpayer money is on the line, it should NOT be that easy for an average citizen to run 3 quick calculations and come up with the answers I came up with. If there is doubt over the spending, it should not be that easily warranted and backed up.
These are county courthouses my friend. Duval County CH and Mecklenburg County CH. Also, Charlotte's city population isn't that much smaller than ours now. They'll surpass sooner rather than later.
Edit: Just noticed your post disappeared for some reason.
Duval County Population : 864,263
Mecklenburg County Population: 919,628
^^^Yeah yall got me, I tried to act like that post didn't happen and delete, but I got caught slippin LOL. Anyway, I find it hard to believe that those courtrooms are not gonna be used resourcefully at the new DCC. I'm done with this courthouse battle talk, I really can't wait for those future five threads all rehashing on what a disaster we have when it opens.
+1 Simms3. Local pride is one thing but people are wasting their time trying to validate this thing. It's here and we'll have to live with it and plan to integrate it into the surrounding area but trying to validate how it got to this point is useless.
Maybe our crime level has something to do with us having more courtrooms than Mecklenburg County; There's something that's negative, ya know things that the majority of MJ loves to bask in; Maybe yall should elaborate on that? Maybe Jacksonvillains now don't have to wait so long for a court date. There's some negative thread material, any ideas....
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 10, 2012, 02:07:30 PM
Quote from: cityimrov on April 10, 2012, 12:53:54 PM
The Charlotte courthouse looks like a regular office building and a much better sight knowing it only cost $148 million compared to $350 million. How did they get one for only $148 million?
keep in mind that our new courthouse is costing roughly $225 million to construct...the remainder is for renovations to the old Federal courthouse, building the garage, and buying the land
I don't know why you always fall back on that non-sequitur. So would it have gotten built if they didn't get the land to build it on? I mean, it cost what it cost. I don't care WTF the individual breakdowns are, all I know is the stupid thing costs $400mm and it's ugly, unnecessary, and they had to level several city blocks to build it, further continuing our asinine policy of turning all of downtown into one giant city hall.
Quote from: I-10east on April 10, 2012, 04:15:28 PM
Maybe our crime level has something to do with us having more courtrooms than Mecklenburg County; There's something that's negative, ya know things that the majority of MJ loves to bask in; Maybe yall should elaborate on that? Maybe Jacksonvillains now don't have to wait so long for a court date. There's some negative thread material, any ideas....
They aren't apples-to-apples comparisons. Both are county courthouses, but both actually serve several courts that aren't equivalent between the state. As far as county court functions go, Mecklenburg County is slightly larger than Duval. However, for one difference, NC has a Superior Court broken into districts, while Florida has Circuit Courts. IIRC, Mecklenburg's local Superior Court division covers only that county, meaning it's smaller than the Florida 4th Circuit, which includes not only Duval but Clay and Nassau as well.
Our new courthouse was originally designed to last for 50 years with room for expansion as Northeast Florida continues to grow. The current courthouse has lasted for 50 years itself, but is so out of date in size that the state required us to build a new one (something that's usually forgotten in these discussions). In Charlotte, by contrast, the current design won't last 50 years, and it replaced a building that was less than 30 years old. Of course we're in a worse position now that we've overspent on this monstrosity.
Both courthouses are weak in different ways, but this is the result of similar failures. Mecklenburg County Courthouse suffered from a lack of foresight. Duval County Courthouse suffers from an administration's failure to follow through on the foresight of its predecessors.
Quote from: simms3 on April 08, 2012, 09:38:34 PM
12) There are no cabs anywhere. I saw one cab in Avondale during two nights of going to bars there. One. Nobody in Avondale that I could tell was a DD. Cops are everywhere along Roosevelt and generally everywhere. I would be scared as hell to drink and party in Jax. Why aren't there more cabs? I understand one would need to call a cab during the day or basically anywhere during the day (they aren't lined up at the airport either), but at night I would expect a line of cabs everywhere there is some concentration of bars. I guess I have seen them on Bay St, but they must be the only cabs in town.
DDs? In Avondale? Psshhh.. ask anyone who has hung out with anyone from Avondale or Ortega what a "toter" is.
Quote from: RiversideLoki on April 10, 2012, 05:22:50 PM
Quote from: simms3 on April 08, 2012, 09:38:34 PM
12) There are no cabs anywhere. I saw one cab in Avondale during two nights of going to bars there. One. Nobody in Avondale that I could tell was a DD. Cops are everywhere along Roosevelt and generally everywhere. I would be scared as hell to drink and party in Jax. Why aren't there more cabs? I understand one would need to call a cab during the day or basically anywhere during the day (they aren't lined up at the airport either), but at night I would expect a line of cabs everywhere there is some concentration of bars. I guess I have seen them on Bay St, but they must be the only cabs in town.
DDs? In Avondale? Psshhh.. ask anyone who has hung out with anyone from Avondale or Ortega what a "toter" is.
You mean a tater and a roadie?
Quote from: Tacachale on April 10, 2012, 04:59:17 PM
They aren't apples-to-apples comparisons. Both are county courthouses, but both actually serve several courts that aren't equivalent between the state. As far as county court functions go, Mecklenburg County is slightly larger than Duval. However, for one difference, NC has a Superior Court broken into districts, while Florida has Circuit Courts. IIRC, Mecklenburg's local Superior Court division covers only that county, meaning it's smaller than the Florida 4th Circuit, which includes not only Duval but Clay and Nassau as well.
Our new courthouse was originally designed to last for 50 years with room for expansion as Northeast Florida continues to grow. The current courthouse has lasted for 50 years itself, but is so out of date in size that the state required us to build a new one (something that's usually forgotten in these discussions). In Charlotte, by contrast, the current design won't last 50 years, and it replaced a building that was less than 30 years old. Of course we're in a worse position now that we've overspent on this monstrosity.
Both courthouses are weak in different ways, but this is the result of similar failures. Mecklenburg County Courthouse suffered from a lack of foresight. Duval County Courthouse suffers from an administration's failure to follow through on the foresight of its predecessors.
I agree, you're one of the few who is actually giving unbiased and reasonable insight; Mostly every one else = "Mecklenburg Courthouse is the best in the world, and Duval County is the worst". I'm not being a homer here, just putting things into perspective.
^Tacachale, great point and I agree. I just don't believe there's a need to justify the horrible process or the result. We've got a product that cost more than it had to be, destroyed fabric that it didn't have too, and something that's completely out of scale. It is what it is. Now, we've got to make the best of the situation and move forward. I believe not rebuilding Monroe Street and making that area a green space is a great start.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 10, 2012, 04:18:11 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 10, 2012, 02:07:30 PM
Quote from: cityimrov on April 10, 2012, 12:53:54 PM
The Charlotte courthouse looks like a regular office building and a much better sight knowing it only cost $148 million compared to $350 million. How did they get one for only $148 million?
keep in mind that our new courthouse is costing roughly $225 million to construct...the remainder is for renovations to the old Federal courthouse, building the garage, and buying the land
I don't know why you always fall back on that non-sequitur. So would it have gotten built if they didn't get the land to build it on? I mean, it cost what it cost. I don't care WTF the individual breakdowns are, all I know is the stupid thing costs $400mm and it's ugly, unnecessary, and they had to level several city blocks to build it, further continuing our asinine policy of turning all of downtown into one giant city hall.
^^ +1 .. A colossal waste of money on all counts, and an end-product that was far too costly , more space than we could ever possibly need, a price tag ours, and several future generations will pay for, and a building that does nothing, appreciably to enhance the downtown area.
Nothing against FBC, but between them and Government offices, this is sadly the majority of what makes up what used to be a vibrant and beautiful downtown. Past administrations ran everything that was an attraction or destination ,to speak of out of downtown and razed pretty much everything appreciable in our architecture.