Metro Jacksonville

http://beta.morons.org/tally-ho/article/read/1689

its been a while since this thread got started, but I wonder how much First Baptist contributed to the world tensions and the general apocalyptic nature of global politics when Dr. Jerry Vines called Muhamed a 'Demon possessed pedophile".

This sort of makes me wonder who is the vile one.  What happened to teaching humility and decency? Come on reverend...what a terrible example you've set for your congregation. Shame on you.

Quote from: stephendare on December 04, 2007, 10:50:26 PM


When Vines took over the Baptist Convention, the entire state of Texas bolted from the southern Baptist Denomination on the grounds that it had become TOO conservative.

Thats not true, There was a sect of Texas southern baptist that became part of the Baptist General Convention of Texas which is actually part of the CBF and SBC, The rest of the southern baptist became part of the Southern Baptist of Texas Convention. The largest Southern Baptist Theological Seminary on the Planet is located  in Forth Worth, Texas, and another large seminary is in Dallas, not to mention Criswell College. I dont go to downtown Jax, never have, parents didnt go. I do still go to church, there are some good churches out there.

Last time I checked the Baptist Church still taught to "hate the sin but love the sinner," For those who take the scriptures as fact without flaw, their teaching is often quite deep and thoughful. However, when the Bible labels something as wrong or as a sin, so will the Baptist Church, sadly, this is often taken as a personal attack from the pastor, rather then the source.

Dr. Vines was entitled to his opinion of Mohamad, as are the rest of us for better or worse...

Mohamad called all of the Jews and Christians "People of the Book", until he gained enough military power, then changed that to "Devils".

The Mormon Church, says that all other churches are wrong, their leaders corrupt, they have a form of godlyness and draw near with their lips but are far from him with thier hearts.

The Watchtower claims that the prophets of old appeared and made a survey of all churches, finding that only the Jehovahs Witnesses were the keepers of truth. They even built an estate for the "prophets" in Southern California, which their leader lived in (to keep it) for the angelic beings.

The Catholics, though liberal in this Country, haven't given an inch in the rest of the World, they still teach, "On CHURCH, one faith, one baptism" meaning of course their own. They alone are the keepers of all truth, and light, Gods representatives on Earth, and have the dogma to back it up.

Bottom line as I see it, we spend a great deal of time on these forum pages crying over the sins, real and imagined of FBC Jacksonville. Then spin on a dime and whine over why there isn't more to our downtown urban core. Wake up folks, here we have a "club Baptist" that is active almost every day of the week, and it brings 10-20,000 people downtown 1-5 times a week. It's as good as having a professional basketball team playing nearly every night 365. Perhaps we should see these folks as customers for Transit, Restaurants, and Retail, rather then ranting on about their personal beliefs.

Ocklawaha

Ock, I have been saying this for at least two years now. At least someone out there agrees with me. Thanks.

QuoteBottom line as I see it, we spend a great deal of time on these forum pages crying over the sins, real and imagined of FBC Jacksonville. Then spin on a dime and whine over why there isn't more to our downtown urban core. Wake up folks, here we have a "club Baptist" that is active almost every day of the week, and it brings 10-20,000 people downtown 1-5 times a week. It's as good as having a professional basketball team playing nearly every night 365. Perhaps we should see these folks as customers for Transit, Restaurants, and Retail, rather then ranting on about their personal beliefs.

Right on.  We need to take advantage of the crowds the downtown churches bring into the core.

But then they would have to leave the parking garage.

As a "Preachers Kid" (yes, me too Stephendare) I've never met a Baptist or Methodist yet that didn't leave that parking lot for the tradtional "Sunday Dinner".  

Ocklawaha

Trust me there are many folks who go to that church (me) that do try and support downtown business as much as possible and encourage others to do the same.....so yes, some of us do leave the garages.

QuoteBottom line as I see it, we spend a great deal of time on these forum pages crying over the sins, real and imagined of FBC Jacksonville. Then spin on a dime and whine over why there isn't more to our downtown urban core. Wake up folks, here we have a "club Baptist" that is active almost every day of the week, and it brings 10-20,000 people downtown 1-5 times a week. It's as good as having a professional basketball team playing nearly every night 365. Perhaps we should see these folks as customers for Transit, Restaurants, and Retail, rather then ranting on about their personal beliefs.

The problem as I see it, you'll see the throngs of people coming into downtown to FBC, but you'll also see them heading right out....they don't seem to hang around and shop downtown, I don't see them heading to the Landing...so they're really not pouring money into the businesses down there. They come, they go and block off streets in the process.

QuoteAnd not just FBC either, dont forget that immaculate conception, Bethel Baptist, Shiloh and several other large churches are also downtown.

The reasons people don't dine downtown during the day has nothing to do with some inherent churchiness and everything to do with making the downtown as forbidding as possible through administrative design to the end user.

I totally agree, and my comment wasn't intended as an insult to FBC....and you're quite right about the other large churches...you see them come and go as well.

Personally, if downtown had more to offer, then the visitors would likely spend more time (and money) there. We need more family-friendly places to eat...and on Sundays, there's basically nothing.

Wow, Ock, your post was dead on. Indeed, the FBC up here in Columbia is not being utilized either as a source of boosting downtown restaurants and shopping, which is a true shame, considering its size. While it's not as big as Jax's FBC, its presence and economic impact would help downtown businesses if people actually catered to it.

Jax's FBC is impressive, and once my wife and I (oh yeah, AND MY NEWBORN SON!!  ;D ) move down there, that is one of the churches we'd like to check out. Since it brings such a large population consistently to the urban core, I would suggest not concentrating on bashing the pastor's preaching.

Stephen, again we must disagree. The preacher is entitled to preach his opinion because in seminary, he actually studied things like that.

Quoteoh yeah, AND MY NEWBORN SON!!

Congrats!!!

Thanks, Stephen! I think it is some Divine Providence that is allowing me to post here, as the call to make Jax my home seems as loud as it always has been...so, it is good to be seeing you guys here as well. Also, thanks to you and Lake for the congrats on our new baby. Needless to say, sleep has become a precious commodity. Things will get better though.

Back to topic: if you talk to some pastors, Stephen, there are some who study other religions as part of their theology curriculum. True, the core of seminary graduates is Christian theology, but pastors will study aspects of other religions as a means to demonstrate the clear arguments against them. As for Mohammed, the fact is that he was a pedophile. The Quran, among other scholarly research, details that he took a 6-year-old girl as a wife. Sorry, it is what it is. As far as being demon possessed, well that may be over the top...however, what would you consider being the motivation for an individual that decides to create a religion that enslaves women, persecutes other religions, and violently kills people for their refusal to submit to Islam? Sounds a little evil to me...

QuoteTrue, the core of seminary graduates is Christian theology, but pastors will study aspects of other religions as a means to demonstrate the clear arguments against them. As for Mohammad, the fact is that he was a pedophile. The Quran, among other scholarly research, details that he took a 6-year-old girl as a wife. Sorry, it is what it is. As far as being demon possessed, well that may be over the top...however, what would you consider being the motivation for an individual that decides to create a religion that enslaves women, persecutes other religions, and violently kills people for their refusal to submit to Islam? Sounds a little evil to me...

Well said Charleston, and add another Congratulations on the new addition to your family.
I am one of those graduates that made Christian Apologetics into a major. Let me say that I agree with you. In dealing with other religions or history one must take into account the morals and standards of the time and place in question. Example, can we fault all Southerners or 1861-65, as African American hating bigots? We simply cannot hold them to today's moral standards. Taking a 6 year old child as a wife is extreme, on the surface if would appear as the action of a pedophile. But we must consider the customs. Was the 6 year old promised to him as a Child? Was the marriage consummated at that age? Women were/still are considered property in the Mid-East, arranged marriages are common. The Virgin Mary was probably somewhere around 13 or 14 when Jesus came into the World, by the same measure would we label the Holy Spirit the same way?
As for murder of anyone with another belief. The Greeks were pretty good at that themselves when they took the Holy Land prior to the Jewish revolts. Rome just continued the tradition and refined it with Lions, Tigers, Crosses and swords. By the time of the Crusades, the Church in Rome called for taking out all of the Mideastern peoples in order to restore Christ to Jerusalem. The Moslem's had good teachers!

In order to argue the evils of one religion against another, or one people against another, one must look at the historical record. In bible times anyone could be a "prophet", but to make one single mistake, was to lose ones life to execution. So the prophets were deadly correct, or simply dead. In this respect, one can line up the words of Mohammad and the words of Christ, go back to the historical record. Does the "Word" square with the record? Have the scriptures been flexible enough to fit every age? It is that basis in which Islam will ultimately live or fall.

For Christians the question to ask is "Who is Jesus to you". Never get into the side stuff such as "do you drink", "do you salute the flag". "did you prophet have many wives"? For the Worldly, the question will be how does this square with history and todays life style. Either way, in my mind Islam comes up wanting.  

Ocklawaha

Stephendare, I don't believe I suggested "why" the Romans were after the Christians. You are correct of course in that Rome was religious. Even in it's early and more blood thirsty days, Rome had an odd habit of absorbing the religions of whatever people they conquered. This didn't apply to the early Christians because as you pointed out, they refused to bow to the Emperor. Emperor worship became a standard quite a few years into the empire. Citizens could lead whatever life and worship whichever god they chose but one day a year, they had to give offerings and worship in the Temple of the Emperor. Christians of course could not do this without losing their faith. Yet Rome was so devout to it's pantheon, that we modern Americans still call their names almost every day!

For those who don't know what Stephendare and I are talking about, we still use a good deal of the Julian Calender to this day. That calender taken from ancient Mesopotamia, uses a host of gods or planet-gods for the names of the days of the week. When it was "modernized" we just added in and replaced some of the "unknowns" with Norse gods. Thus we went from Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn to the Medieval Period. Tuesday is Tiu, Norse god of war. Woden is Wednesday, supreme deity. Thursday is Thor's Day, god of thunder. Friday is Frigg day, She was the wife of Odin and goddess of love and beauty. The others are pretty easy to figure out.  

Ocklawaha

Quote from: stephendare on December 06, 2007, 06:34:07 PM
...Technically speaking, a pedophile is a person who achieves sexual gratification by having sex with children who have not been through puberty BECAUSE of the fact that they havent been through puberty.....its the prepubescent state that is the turn on.

It would be mis-speaking to imply that muhamed was attracted to children sexually...

Well, with that statement, you're being disingenuous in describing the desires of men in the Middle East, particularly where women are not exactly believed to be in the same class as men to begin with. Do you actually believe that in those arrangements, men did not have sex with these young girls or were sexually attracted to them? Why do you think those cultures allowed that practice?

Keep in mind that Arabic culture and Jewish culture are very separate, different things, so your earlier example of Mary being chosen by God despite her being 13 to 14 years old is a moot point. Mary's destiny was an honor bestowed on her while Ayesha's was another form of slavery.

Stephen, you are quite accurate in your statement about the lineage of Jews and Arabs. Yes, they both can trace their roots to Abraham, but the religions of Judaism and Islam are entirely different. Judaism has been around far longer than Islam; Islam was started around 700 AD. Muhammed himself traveled in caravans during the younger part of his life, and he picked up many bits and pieces from Jewish and Christian travelers. The God he calls Allah was actually the moon god out of the over 300 gods that were worshipped by Arabic pilgrims throughout Saudi Arabia.

As far as the sexual proclivities of Muhammed, you may be right...there is no concrete proof of his pedophilia, but I think you are being very disingenuous to the culture of some Arabic tribes, let alone the desires of man. You honestly think that there was no "hanky panky" going on? That's a little naive, IMO, especially when we are talking about a man with a huge ego and power trip.

No, religion and ethnic lineage are completely separate entities, and again, the actual religion of Islam is nowhere near the age of Judaism. That is a fact. Islam was not established until almost 600 years after the death and resurrection of Christ and over 4,000 years since the establishment of Judaism. They DO NOT "spring from the same source". Muslim critics of Christianity conveniently try to point the finger at the worship of Jesus while forgetting that there are historical references to His existence and punishment by the Roman government.

The origin of the worship of Allah isn't propoganda, you can find these facts in many theological dissertations and essays. I try to stay away from stuff like the American Nazi Party. BTW, the Hadith actually confirms that Muhammed did indeed consummate the marriage when she was 9 years old, 3 years after he married her.

The Jesus analogy is quite disturbing. Sorry, that's putting Muhammed as having the same amount of credence as Jesus, and I just can't do that, especially with a man who is tremendously fallible in comparison to Jesus.

Stephendare! I'm amazed at your attitude toward The National Socialist Workers Party! One has to look at the good things they did too...

They created the worlds first freeway system

They gave my generation "The Peoples Car" designed in part by that old artisit AH himself.

They razed that ugly old "congress" building

They built the worlds best submarines, and taught us how to use them

They sent us their "brains" to get NASA to the Moon and back

They helped the Polish with urban renewal in Warsaw

They had fashion designers that created really snappy uniforms

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/220px-Derfuehrersfaceposter.jpg)

Spike Jones and the City Slickers

When Der Fuehrer says, "We ist der master race"
We HEIL! HEIL! Right in Der Fuehrer's face
Not to love Der Fuehrer is a great disgrace
So we HEIL! HEIL! Right in Der Fuehrer's face
When Herr Gobbels says, "We own der world und space"
We HEIL! HEIL! Right in Herr Goring's face
When Herr Goring says they'll never bomb this place
We HEIL! HEIL! Right in Herr Goring's face

Are we not the supermen
Aryan pure supermen
Ja we ist der supermen
Super-duper supermen
Ist this Nutzi land not good?
Would you leave it if you could?
Ja this Nutzi land is good!
Vee would leave it if we could

We bring the world to order
Heil Hitler's world New Order
Everyone of foreign race will love Der Fuehrer's face
When we bring to der world disorder

When Der Fuehrer says, "We ist der master race"
We HEIL! HEIL! Right in Der Fuehrer's face
When Der Fuehrer says, "We ist der master race"
We HEIL! HEIL! Right in Der Fuhrer's face

Ocklawaha

Stephen, before I toss any stones, I discovered in Apologetics that only a tiny percent of ALL pastors and priests of all Christian faiths even get ONE SINGLE course in the study! Those that do often have a single class or in most cases, an interfaith missionary comes and does a 45 minute speech. THIS IS JUST NOT ACCEPTABLE from either a conservative (we need to win the World) standpoint, or a liberal (we need to understand the World) standpoint. The fault here goes beyond what Doctor Vines or Brunson, or Lindsey might have said. It goes to the heart of everything from Florida Baptist Seminary to Concordia, to St. Paul's...

While I have taught the subject in FBCJ in the past (yes folks the old hippie is a "born again Christian") I always caution my classes to stay away from subject matter that causes a lot of heat and very little light. From a conservative standpoint, we must not "preach" that Jehovah's Witnesses don't celebrate Christmas, Birthdays, take blood or salute the flag. We must stay away from "Mountain Meadows," (see the movie September Dawn) or polygamy, or baptism for the dead, within the Mormon Church. Likewise, I believe attack on the "prophet" of Islam, is not the way to win converts or influence success in evangelism.

The Gospel must live or die based on the facts. The facts must be understood from the oldest validated writings forward. We can't go to a book written in 600 AD, and accept it's story of Christ, the same as the eye witness accounts in the Bible. Moreover the Bible accounts are backed by many Roman and Jewish historians that were non believers. From our few true apologetics and scripture historians, it appears that Mohammad gained his knowledge of the new "Christian" movement through traders which brought him stories. Many may have been greatly altered before they reached his ears. Did he have a vision? Well, for those in Islam, he did. Faith, that single element makes everything else he said as fact (in their minds). But not so fast. Was he correct in every forecast? Every prediction? Why was he hunted down by his own tribal peoples at first? Can we answer this? (I'm no challenging you Stephendare, to answer these questions, simply making the point that the research is far from complete). Had the "prophet" erred the penalty in those times was certain death.

The "Moon-god" story is told and retold, Here is the basis: Mohammad and his men rode into a opposition city where vastly outnumbered he would have been killed. They had many temples, and as he was approached by the chiefs and leaders, they asked him, "Who is god? which is the correct temple of the true god? According to the tale, he pointed at the largest and most magnificent temple atop which was a crescent moon, "THAT ONE" he said. Sometime after, he was allowed to enter and "correct the doctrine" within that temple. Thus the Mosque, and Crescent came into being. The trouble with this tale is it isn't a first hand account. We can't be sure it even happened. Was this story altered before it reached our ears? What other sources are there?

Many of us feel that certain branches of Islam are downright evil. But if we looked under our own beds, we could find that many branches of so-called "Christian" groups are just as bad... Do you let a child die because he can't take blood? Do you execute prisoners with gunfire (for their salvation) because Jesus' blood isn't strong enough for capital sins (Utah)? Do you hand a pregnant teen a rattlesnake in church to see if she has a demon? Do you starve a baby that is believed demon possessed? Maybe we burn the non-believers at the stake? These are all EXTREME EXAMPLES of the worst in humanity hiding behind a church. I don't care if it's Baptist, Catholic, Mormon, Kingdom Hall, Temple or Mosque.

Again, the whole of the Christian gospel is: God Created Man and Woman. We sinned, We failed to keep the law handed down by God (the same one that's now illegal to post in our own Courthouses). No mere lamb or dove could be sacrificed to save our rebellious souls. So God himself became man, walked on the Earth, lived as 100% man, and yet was 100% God. He raised the dead, healed the sick, restored the truth, and was murdered by us... (not by Jews, or Romans or Greeks) BY US! He died, was buried, and on the third day he rose from the dead. He was seen and recorded by 1,000's more people after he rose, and he ascended into heaven. He said "Go into all the world and preach the gospel" and "I go to prepare a place for you". He also said he will return... This gospel story makes all branches of Christianity unique, in that it is the only faith where it doesn't matter if you understand his teachings, You don't have to know his history, You don't have to do good works, You ONLY need to accept him for who and what he said he is: Jesus Christ The Lord, King of Kings.

It would be easy to continue to attack the mis-steps of various followers and teachers. It would be easy to keep up the tales about Islam or Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy or Pope Innocent. But in the end, none of that really matters. The only thing we each need to ask is "Who is Jesus to you?"

So I agree with you Stephendare, do the research, learn the facts, then speak the truth in LIGHT!

End of my sermons on line...
Brother Bob...

AKA: Ocklawaha

Stephen, this is just an argument where we're going to have to agree to disagree. Muslims may claim that Allah is the same God of Abraham, but this can be greatly debated due to historical references and context. Keep in mind that Christians also abide by the Old Testament, written far before the Gospels, so no, you can't apply the same logic in that the religion "started" when its scripture was written. The example of Muhammed writing his word at a later date is inapplicable. The fact is that Christ fulfilled the prophecies of the Messiah in the OT...they're inter-related. Where in any book of Scripture, OT or NT, stipulates the necessity of another prophet? Islam does not seek to connect itself to Jews and Christians...it very much appears to want to be built on top of them.

Ocklawaha, you have written a very superb post that I can almost completely agree with. You're right, we as followers of Christ must show people the way, absolutely. But we also must be aware of false prophets, and many Christians believe Islam is a creation of a false prophet. For the most part, a great post!

This has been an interesting discussion "my brother"! I think in principal we agree on most of these issues. While I have no problem with Doctor so and so and so, teaching me about beliefs of different kinds, he better do his homework, because like yourself, I have.

At this season of the year it seems so clear, just how simple the message of Jesus really is, and we humans try and muddle it all up. We're quite good at it too.

(http://my.inil.com/~ptureson/Matt/teletubbies/images/tinkyhand.jpg)
 
I always pictured "Madonna in Hell," being forced to sit in a sound booth and hear endless recordings of Bach, Holtz etc... Perhaps if Falwell got there, he found a earthen domed house waiting for him and "Tinky Winky" runs out to give him a big hug... "La La" "Poe" and ROFL.

Peace to all of you this beautiful season, in the Worlds most beautiful City.  

Ocklawaha

I went to FBC.  That's all it took for me to decide that those people are NJ's (Nut Jobs).  What made me decide was when "a brother" prayed for all the "Jews that were lost". Duh Jesus was a Jew.  I couldn't get that remark out of of my mind.  Has anybody ever heard of  a Rabi molesting an alterboy.  I think the Christians has a monopoly on that. Why we no hear of Rabi's molesting kids?  Name one and I'll retract this rant. 

The other constant was the group leader praying to protect the bapatist as they are the saving grace.  Yes, John showed me the way, but so did Sarah Connor. 

I watched Homer Lindsey on tv Sunday mornings and yes I got something from it.  I really did.  You also get something from Playboy tv.  It's more about what you do then anything else.  If you help a brother out that's what matters.

Jesus said 1) Love God, 2) Love yourself, and 3) Love your neighbor.  Period. That's it.  EOD

Quote from: gatorback on December 24, 2007, 12:25:30 AM
I watched Homer Lindsey on tv Sunday mornings and yes I got something from it.  I really did.  You also get something from Playboy tv. 

ROFLMAO!  Probably best not to mix issues of politics and issues of personal beliefs in the same forum...regardless of what the current presidential candidates would have us believe.  There is a reason why our founding fathers dictated a seperation of church and state, ya know?

Each individual has some sort of deep personal belief, and all any of us should be concerned with is whether or not that individual is free to live by those beliefs without imposing force on others.  If you're Southern Baptist, great.  Catholic, that's peachy.  Muslim, wonderful.  Don't force your ideals down my throat and threaten my beliefs or quality of life with yours, and we'll all get along (speaking in generalities, not about anyone here specifically).  So, to address the information in the links posted and comments regarding Jerry Vines and FBCJ, they're all wrong :P

Quote

QuoteI went to FBC. That's all it took for me to decide that those people are NJ's (Nut Jobs). What made me decide was when "a brother" prayed for all the "Jews that were lost". Duh Jesus was a Jew. I couldn't get that remark out of of my mind. Has anybody ever heard of a Rabi molesting an alterboy. I think the Christians has a monopoly on that. Why we no hear of Rabi's molesting kids? Name one and I'll retract this rant.

Rabbi Benyamin Fleischman is a photographer and is frequently commissioned to do jobs outside of the state of Maryland (including outside of the US). His probation order permits him to travel. Please note that his work in the past has included weddings (with children present), Bar and Bat Mitzvahs (Commerical Photography and Video). If you suspect your child or someone else's child has been victimized please contact your local child protection hotline or The Awareness Center for a referral. Mr. Fleischman sentence is 10 years which will be suspended, five years probation, with the requirements recited before of no contact with children under 18. He is to cooperate with Child Protective Services. He was also ordered to stay away from his victim, and to have no unsupervised contact. There is a new trend that is happening all over the country (U.S.) Many alleged offender are pleading guilty to a lessor charge, so that the plea agreement will include a stipulation that a convicted sex offenders will not have to be placed on the states sex offenders registry. When this happens it puts the entire community (or in this case children in other countries) at risk of harm. Please note that no news media group has picked up this case, even though Mr. Fleischman was a well known person in the Jewish community in Baltimore.

Gatorback, I'd like to hear brother Stephendare's take on this too. Frankly, NJ (Nut Jobs) come in all religions and all races. The sex abuse or rapists have no religion or creed, they are criminals that sadly hide where people feel their children are "safe". In the mid East, it is common for a 12 year old girl to be held down by her father and his relations and be circumcised with a razor while she screams. Remember the Moslem's were selling popcorn, at the female executions, held at the local stadium in Kabul. There is a Hindu sect that castrates young boys to serve men. The blood of "Ana-Baptists" Jean Ribault, and anyone else "other then Catholic" was spilled over the local sand dunes South of St. Augustine. The site is marked with the Spanish name for the River, today we just pass over the Matanzas, without a thought to the horrors that took place there. Matanzas? in English? A river named SLAUGHTER.

Baptist doctrine also teaches Jesus said "I AM the way". For that reason they pray for any person or group that doesn't see the Words of Christ. It's not a put down, it because they/I/we really do care. Southern Baptists as a whole, revolt against authoritarian rules from Nashville. They question everything just as our Jewish friends do. Thus the many splinter groups of Baptists, and the many more "Independent Baptist" churches. No two are just alike. While some "independent" groups go way off into cult weird, most are rock solid. The official word from Nashville, (at least they agree on a few things... sometimes) is that ANY believer in Christs gospel is our brother. Black, White, Latin, Straight, Gay, Rich, Poor, etc... The gospel that: God became man, lived among us, was murdered, buried, rose on the 3Rd day, and ascended into heaven. John 3:16 lays it out about as clear as it gets, whoever believes and confesses Jesus, (no qualifications) is saved. Catholic? My brother. Lutheran? My brother. Methodist? My brother. Don't read into this that we are perfection... WE AIN'T. Churches are NOT sanctuary's for Saints, they are Hospitals for Hippocrates...

We are blessed in Jacksonville to have such a huge and active church. Wouldn't matter one hoot to me if it were any Christian church. Frankly, from a City standpoint, it wouldn't matter much whoever they were. We have 20,000 persons that pop in and out of downtown several times a week. This is like having our own NBA team, without the riots! I think it's time to quit trying to shoot one of the biggest and best things we have going for us and find a way to make these people a downtown fixture... Did you ever meet a Baptist that didn't go to dinner after Sunday service? Maybe that's a good place to start.

That's my view...

Ocklawaha

Once again, the Pancake must eat her words.  After re-reading this, I realize we're in the "break room" which would imply that this is a place used to break from the standard city-activism.  D'OH!  I swear, I'll figure this all out one day and stop eating crow pie ;).  ~puts tail between legs and scoots out of forum~

Quote from: second_pancake on December 24, 2007, 09:43:41 AM
So, to address the information in the links posted and comments regarding Jerry Vines and FBCJ, they're all wrong :P

Wrong?  Hitler was wrong.  GW is wrong.  JV was right?!

Wanted to wish a everyone a Merry Christmas from a FBC NJ (nut job)!! :) Nice post Ock!

Quote from: fsujax on December 24, 2007, 09:54:05 AM
Wanted to wish a everyone a Merry Christmas from a FBC NJ (nut job)!! :) Nice post Ock!

I Love FBC just not the NJ's that made those stupid comments.  If you follow Jesus Christ you're not a NJ.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 24, 2007, 09:45:21 AM
We are blessed in Jacksonville to have such a huge and active church. Wouldn't matter one hoot to me if it were any Christian church. Frankly, from a City standpoint, it wouldn't matter much whoever they were. We have 20,000 persons that pop in and out of downtown several times a week. This is like having our own NBA team, without the riots! I think it's time to quit trying to shoot one of the biggest and best things we have going for us and find a way to make these people a downtown fixture... Did you ever meet a Baptist that didn't go to dinner after Sunday service? Maybe that's a good place to start.
Ocklawaha

Whoa.  Wait a minute.  While FBC may bring a lot of business to the downtown area, they've also done a lot to destroy it...and I'm not talking from a spiritual standpoint.  Look at the footprint of the buildings devoted to that church alone compared to the others in downtown, or even in the other areas outside of downtown.  How many square feet are used just for parking??  It's insane!  Why is it necessary to destroy that which can be reused?  Why promote polluting what God supposedly gave us, by building more and more parking?  If people so loved the EARTH and respected spirtuatlity, they would live humbly.  Material wealth does not enrich the spirit, and yet, by the looks of many of these uber-churches in town, you would think quite the opposite.

Did you know the debit on the parking facilities, is paid by the parking facilities? True! Fact is they are leased to major Downtown businesses during the week. American Heritage Life Insurance, back in the day, helped get that started. The lots are used on weekdays by commuters, and weekends and evenings by the church goers. Sounds like win-win to me, since with a church, someone has to have parking. Of course a LRT line to each members house would be my mode of choice, but reality?

Ocklawaha

Okay, I'm going to need more coffee for this because I have a huge issue with downtown parking!

Transportation guys are weird Gatorback, I LOVE LRT, I like buses, A 380 hp Dedec engine smells sweet to me, I even think highway interchanges have a certain sexy flow to them (or maybe it's the xanax?)

Try some coffee with a couple of those little buttons off those Texas Cacti. Use lot's of sugar because those little buttons tast like CRAP... but within 20 minutes, you'll be conversing with the "Great Indian" and completely laid back!

(not that I ever did it, just read the book, seen the video, etc...)

Ocklawaha

Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 24, 2007, 10:13:26 AM
Did you know the debit on the parking facilities, is paid by the parking facilities? True! Fact is they are leased to major Downtown businesses during the week. American Heritage Life Insurance, back in the day, helped get that started. The lots are used on weekdays by commuters, and weekends and evenings by the church goers. Sounds like win-win to me, since with a church, someone has to have parking. Of course a LRT line to each members house would be my mode of choice, but reality?

Ocklawaha

Yup.  I did and do know that...doesn't really address my major area of concern though.  It doesn't matter who uses the parking, but why it was built in the first place.  Remember Field of Dreams:  "If you build it, they will come."  If we keep destroying buildings to be replaced with parking garages, it only promotes the use of vehicles in downtown.  There are better ways...one of which you pointed out, albeit with a level of extremism.  No, we don't "have to have parking".  Parking is not the problem, the means of getting to and from, is.  Find a better mode of transportation and the parking garage will go the way of the horse and buggy.

While it's true that the parking garages owned by FBC (and leased by others), more than likely would have been built with or without FBC's presence, to me, the shame is owned by those who devised and worked the plan.

I heard that all that property was given to FBC by old BFCers when they died.  I guess that makes it POFBC(Property of First Baptist Church.)   Given it's POFBC we really can't say what they can do with it can we?  Yes we have ordinances with respect to easements, etc., et at.  I wouldn't want anybody to tell me what to do on my property given I'm not out of line with spirit of the community.

I agree the from an art perspective it's hideously grotesque.  It reminds me of a bad nose job going bad.  This is what I’d do.  The lighthouse would look better at the Landing.  Give some of those bricks to HabiJax and put in some windows.   Heck, they really don’t need that large of a place either.  If they had multiple services (Which they don’t want to do because let’s face it, they are lazy and that would just mean more work) they’d never had needed all that sanctuary space.  Just think of all the homeless they could shelter there if they just got off their sanctified butts!

Yes and Yes, No Stephen, we don't disagree on the issue of running over the political machine in the name of religion. At our meeting with Hollingsworth, he had to leave to meet the pastor (???) of his church. I believe the church, FBC, or whatever, should have a place and frankly be allowed to speak it's mind. But that shouldn't keep us from say, selling the School Board property and old JEA facility to the Seminoles for a Hard Rock Casino. Downtown, we have homeless and wealth walking side by side, it SHOULD be so with people of faith or no faith as well. Want to build a club, bar and whatever? I'll be at the zoning meeting to support you... (*Damn, there goes my FBC membership!)

Second_Pancake, I also agree on the parking issue. Have you ever seen the numbers on the amount of land we have paved in the USA? We could cover 8 North Eastern states several inches deep with asphalt. In Jacksonville, we currently have no real alternative. Though I will say JTA caters to the churches, and the Sunday morning runs are fairly full of people going to various churches downtown. That's a good first step, but we now need to get into Light Rail, Trolley-Bus (not chip trucks that look like Trolleys), finish the skyway (WITH PARKING - AROUND the core, not within it). Once the system is up and running, then we can start selling off the parking for REAL and dense development.

If I remember the Church history I read a million years ago, in the 1950's the FBC was bankrupt, all it's buildings were in hock. AHL insurance, came in with an offer to nearly give away the Lindsey? building and it's parking garage. That combined with some creative membership outreach helped the church turn the corner, guess the've never looked back. Thing is, they are approachable, why isn't a skywalk connecting the church to the Rosa Parks? The devil is in the details. If it was, perhaps they could park in the giant empty Kings Avenue garage...

Ocklawaha

Gator, not only that, but just think of the example they could set for the city if they used some of their money for a shuttle service of their own, toting their parishoners to and from the facility instead of them having to use their vehicles.  I've seen almost destitute churches in the area that utilize that type of service so it can't be too expensive...far less than the cost of a new builiding or parking garage.  They could (even further) promote themselves as being the first eco-concious church in Jacksonville. "First Baptist Church of Jacksonville: Where our love of God shows in EVERYTHING we do!"  Ok, so that's probably a little too much, we're talking about physical pollution and not mental pollution; after all, Rome wasn't built in a day ;)  Seriously though, how great would it be to have an organization like that with such pull in our community, to step up?  Even better, since it is their property as you pointed out, why not start dictating to those they lease the garages to what they can and can not do?  Why not further shamelessly promote themselves by allowing only a specified number/type of vehicle to be parked on the premises..."green" vehicles?  I think we all know the answer to that one.

Quote from: second_pancake on December 24, 2007, 11:07:34 AM
Gator, not only that, but just think of the example they could set for the city if they used some of their money for a shuttle service of their own, toting their parishoners to and from the facility instead of them having to use their vehicles.

What a great idea.  I wonder how many FBC members carpool.  Does FBC offer Carpool Spots closer to the front of the line.   IBM offers Carpool Spots up front and guess what?  People use them.  What if FBC had the entire 1st  floor of their garage available to anybody who carpooled to downtown for free--all week long.  I'd like to see that.

Right after you left the Starbucks meeting last week Stephen, a "mob" of folks walked by outside. Suddenly a gal saw me inside and started waving. I looked and it was my nephews wife, I hadn't seen but once since Colombia! I walked out the door and caught them at the light. "Come on in girl! What are you doing down here this time of night?"

"I'm with a group from FBC, we decided to cruise downtown and hand out Christmas packages and food to the homeless..."

As for the shuttle buses? Maybe there is hope? I noted a string of American Coach chartered mini-buses in front of the Sunday school buildings this Sunday. Looks like they ARE providing transportation to those who need it.

Ocklawaha

It's sad what they are feeding them too.  They're not out there handing them tickets to god and a way out of their situation.

I agree stephendare.  It's not the all of the people just a few nut jobs there asserting their dominance over others.  Happened before will happen again.  I went to a Lutheran Church today and the preacherman preached the "one way...the only true way...."  bla bla bla then I found I couldn't take communion  because I've not been "assimilated" into their ways (and because I'm not a member, most likely in good standing which probably means a verification record of my giving.)  So I left.  I wonder how many people at FBC have done just that because they weren't being "fed"?

Can you provide any proof of your accusations, Stephen, and any evidence that FBC was any different than other churches of its era?  I know you have a special hatred for FBC, probably due to personal reasons, but evidence would be nice here.

Also, what is wrong with FBC advocating the view that the Bible is the inerrant word of God?  This is actually pretty standard theology among most major Christian churches.

QuoteInfallibility and inerrancy refer to the original texts of the Bible. And while conservative scholars acknowledge the potential for human error in transmission and translation, modern translations are considered to "faithfully represent the originals".[3]

In their text on the subject, Geisler & Nix (1986) claim that scriptural inerrancy is established by a number of observations and processes, which include:[2]

        * the historical accuracy of the Bible
        * the Bible's claims of its own inerrancy
        * church history and tradition
        * one's individual experience with God

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_inerrancy

So, since the Bible basically states that it is accurate if you claim to be a Christian you really must believe this also.  It is a matter of faith just as is the belief that Jesus was killed by the Romans and rose from the dead on the 3rd day.  This is really basic stuff and not outlandish.

Quote from: stephendare on December 30, 2007, 02:41:24 PM
which parts, River?

Almost all of the above is public record, with the exception of the teachings against miscegenation, which is a personal memory, observed firsthand.

I dont have a special hatred for First Baptist, where did that idea come from?  Ive been a member of the church since 1986, actually.

However I have watched the church, along with my once beloved republican party slide into a chaos controlled by rightwing fanatics who have recreated great institutions into organs of hatred and destruction.

It would be hard for me to dislike most First Baptists, River, since most of my family ( a large large group of people) are long time members there.

But starting with the Muhamed taunts I am finding that my research is making the subject far less glamorous than they once were to me.

If the below is "public record", please produce said records:

QuoteFrom promoting the racism natural to the south to the pulpit when the church formed rather than sit with blacks at their original home, Bethel Baptist, to the preaching from the 50s and 60s pulpits that blacks and whites intermarrying was a sin that God especially hated and produced retarded children, to the present day practice of recommending brainwashing and electroshock (!?!?!) therapy to 'cure' people from being gay, the underlying anti christian spirit of the church has been manifested for decades.

Also, segregation was very mainstream in Jacksonville and the rest of the South for over a hundred years after the end of the Civil War.  How was FBC any different in this respect?

Quote from: stephendare on December 30, 2007, 02:41:24 PM
However I have watched the church, along with my once beloved republican party slide into a chaos controlled by rightwing fanatics who have recreated great institutions into organs of hatred and destruction.

I too have personally observed that behavior and am happy to distance myself from all that adversity.

Also, back to your original post, if you believe that the Bible is true, then Muslims and Jews cannot go to heaven because they do not believe in Christ as their Lord and Savior.  I personally think though that there is special dispensation for the Jews based on the original covenant between God and the Jews.  As for good Muslims, who knows.  Maybe God will allow them into Heaven too but this is not what the Bible says.  That decision is above my pay grade though.   ;)

As for Muhammed, he had some serious issues, including marrying and having sex with young girls - an action which today is a felony in the US.  He had 11 to 13 wives, he was involved in violence against his neighbors and had sex with one of his "wives" when she was just 9 years old.  This is hardly a Godly man.  Hence the demon possessed pedophile phrase.  When you actually read about Muhammed, it makes total sense.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammed

Quote from: stephendare on December 30, 2007, 02:53:54 PM

QuoteAlso, segregation was very mainstream in Jacksonville and the rest of the South for over a hundred years after the end of the Civil War.  How was FBC any different in this respect?

This is an easy (although in Jacksonville's case, lazy..) assumption River.

During the turn of the century and throughout the beginning of the 20th, Jacksonville was actually rather arcadian, as evidenced by the fact that a good number of white congregants remained at our original Bethel Baptist Church, welcoming in the presence of the black newcomers.  The members who withdrew to form First Baptist were considered very out of touch with the mainstream of Jacksonville at the time.

Consider as well the sterling anti racist histories of the other places of worship downtown at the time, starting with the remarkable civil rights work of the Snyder Memorial church dating to the 1880s, the presence of a comparatively gigantic Jewish Center on Confederate Park in Springfield, and the crusading anti racism work of both the Episcopal and Catholic Churches downtown.

It wasnt until after the depression that the city started becoming so racist ---totally coincidental with the massive turnover of the city from mainly episcopal sensibilities to primarily baptist.

Interesting revisionist history.  Is this a bit of spoken word art which you have just created out of whole cloth, Stephen?

I'm not sure what you mean by all that, except that I think the deal is if you believe what Jesus said which is love God, yourself and your neighbor...to me it's less about a book.  Churches have been wrong before.  Remember that "Universe revolves around the Earth" thingy that got Copernicus excommunicated?  The book is open to interpretations which are what Stephen is pointing out.

BTW Stephen, from Bethel Baptist Church's own website, the history seems a bit different than you recall.  First, before the Civil War it was quite common for blacks and slaves to go to the same church with the black members sitting in the balcony and the whites sitting on the ground floor.  This is because there werent many black only churches (many states even outlawed this before 1865 in various slave ordinances in order to discourage slave rebellion) and many towns in the South were too small to support multiple churches anyway.  So, whites and blacks went to church together at that time.  After the end of the Civil War, blacks were free to form their own churches and did so.  Apparently, the white and black members of what are now FBC and Bethel split in the immediate aftermath of the Civil War.

For more on this read below:

QuoteAt the close of the Civil War, an effort was made to separate the Colored and White members but an agreement could not be reached over possession of the property. The opposing fractions went to court and the decision was in favor of the Colored members since they were the majority. They retained the name of the Bethel Baptist Church and were the rightful owners of the Church Street property. A short while after the court’s decision, the Colored members sold the property on Church Street to their White brethren and purchased a lot on the northwest corner of Union and Pine Streets (now Main). In 1868, they erected a one-room frame building where the Bethel Baptist Church congregation worshipped for twenty-seven years and grew from a few souls to several hundred. Also from the separation, the White members established the Tabernacle Baptist Church, located on Church Street, which was later named First Baptist Church (Downtown).

http://www.bethelite.org/about.html

Well the bible speaks of three heavens:

2 Corinthians 12:2 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.


I think there's room for us all.  We need to come together to solve our problems.

hear hear! stephendare I think you just identified the 3 heavens.  I was wonder where they are!

Heaven 1:  The heaven for people with multiple wives
Heaven 2:  The heaven for people with "relations" with Jesus
and Last,
      but not least
Heaven 3:  The place for the rest of us!

Thanks for clarifying that.  Love you in Jesus brother!

Quote from: stephendare on December 30, 2007, 03:29:14 PM
No, River. 

While I don't have a talent for fiction like claiming that the Bible speaks of Muslims being specifically banned from heaven, despite the fact that Islam developed much later than the canon----nor do I have the complete lack of irony necessary for such a fabrication!----My statements are based in the firm foundation of the history of Jacksonville. 

"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6

QuoteLet me recommend you to Emily Lisska for an excellent essay by the Historical society regarding the Snyder Memorial Church, given at the time of the transfer of the property to the River City Band, of which organization I was highly involved at the time.

Actually, my grandparents were married in the downtown Snyder Church - a Methodist Church.  What is your point exactly here?

QuoteOne need merely go back through a couple of threads posted on this very site to verify that there is a historic building with a commanding view of Confederate Park called "The Jewish Center".  One would also take for granted that the name of the building might suggest its original purpose.

The old Jewish Center overlooks Klutho Park in Springfield, not Confederate Park.
http://apps2.coj.net/parksinternet/parkdetails.asp?parkid=86

And, who ever said that Jacksonville was a hotbed for anti-semitism?  I know it wasnt me.  Many Jews lived in Jacksonvillle and the South going back to before the Founding of the US and the South was not known to be particularly anti-semitic as a region.  In fact, the first Jewish Senator in the US was Senator Yulee from Florida in the years just before the Civil War.

QuoteAnd one needs merely to read the Jacksonville Newspapers from the era to garner the rest, which incidentally, I have.

Then post some articles to support your contentions.

QuoteAs for the facts of the matter regarding the predominance of episcopal vs Baptist churches, that is pretty much an established tradition in this city, as witnessed by the relative size and ages of the various structures.

???  Nearly all churches downtown are of the same age because of the Great Fire of 1901 which destroyed almost all of Jacksonville's churches.  I am not aware of any huge size differentials either.  If this is true, it is probably because there were more Baptist churches than Episcopalian ones, the Baptists being by nature more willing to split into competing churches.

QuoteEven when the Baptist Churches were successful, they were in many cases based on their similarity to the Episcopal variety, as witnessed by the nearly catholic appearances of the Riverside Baptist Church.

hahaha.  This is funny.  Actually, the Riverside Baptist structure was designed by Addison Mizner of Palm Beach fame at the request from his mother that he design a church.  Upon completion it was considered too ostentatious for some of the original congregation who complained that the design of the church was better suited to Episcopal or Catholic tastes.  Today, it is not a very successful church in terms of overall attendance although it is an interesting and beautiful structure.

BTW, this info courtesy of Jacksonville's Architectural Heritage by Wayne Wood et al, page 141.

QuoteHopefully all these little details will give you something to read and educate yourself about River.

It will definitely make your input more salient.

I hope that the facts I have posted provide a useful cure to Stephen's historical fiction.  BTW Stephen, I am a student of history generally and particularly the history of Jacksonville and the South.  In fact, I have a BA in History.  Also, my family has been living in Jacksonville for 106 years.  So, if you have any questions, I would be happy to answer them.   :)

Quote from: stephendare on December 30, 2007, 04:08:52 PM

QuoteAs for Muhammed, he had some serious issues, including marrying and having sex with young girls - an action which today is a felony in the US.  He had 11 to 13 wives, he was involved in violence against his neighbors and had sex with one of his "wives" when she was just 9 years old.  This is hardly a Godly man.  Hence the demon possessed pedophile phrase.  When you actually read about Muhammed, it makes total sense

Are you serious?

Solomon and David had numerous wives, and the practice of multiple wives occurs to this day.

This is at least as credible as claiming that Christ was a whoremonger since he consorted with Mary of Magdalene.  Or that he was no better than theives since he was hung between two of them.

Or going all literalist and claiming that an erotic relationship existed between Jesus and the apostle John, whom he called his 'beloved'.

Im sorry River, I just dont think that you can trust a rival belief to fairly describe the beliefs practices and biographies of any religion.

Interesting bit of heresy here.  Let's see, point by point:
1)  I dont believe Solomon or David had sex with 9 year old girls.  Also, the Old Testament has been largely superceded by the New Testament.  In any event, the Bible does not provide for the arrival of Muhammed or for the salvation of his followers.  Hence, he must be a false prophet.
2)  Christ did not "consort" with Mary Magdalene.  This has been invented by people who seek to cast doubt on the divinity of Jesus Christ.  In fact, Jesus was without sin.  Remember the 40 days and 40 nights in the wilderness.  Matthew 4:1-11
3)  The thieves crucified with Jesus were probably intended to be a counter-example and also provided Jesus with the opportunity to save one of them at the last moments of his life. 

Quote39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Luke 23:39-43

4)  To lend any credibility to the idea that Jesus and John were homosexual is simply absurd and without evidence.

Quote from: gatorback on December 30, 2007, 04:34:30 PM
hear hear! stephendare I think you just identified the 3 heavens.  I was wonder where they are!

Heaven 1:  The heaven for people with multiple wives
Heaven 2:  The heaven for people with "relations" with Jesus
and Last,
      but not least
Heaven 3:  The place for the rest of us!

Thanks for clarifying that.  Love you in Jesus brother!

I believe that there is one heaven and one hell. 

BTW, according to John Calvin, the 3 heavens reference is explained as follows:

QuoteEven to the third heaven. He does not here distinguish between the different heavens in the manner of the philosophers, so as to assign to each planet its own heaven. On the other hand, the number three is made use of (κατ ἐζοχὴν) by way of eminence, to denote what is highest and most complete. Nay more, the term heaven, taken by itself, denotes here the blessed and glorious kingdom of God, which is above all the spheres, 887887     â€œPar dessus tons les cieux;” â€" “Above all the heavens.”  and the firmament itself, and even the entire frame-work of the world. Paul, however, not contenting himself with the simple term, 888888     â€œNon content de nommer simplement le ciel;” â€" “Not contented with simply employing the term heaven.”   adds, that he had reached even the greatest height, and the innermost recesses. For our faith scales heaven and enters it, and those that are superior to others in knowledge get higher in degree and elevation, but to reach the third heavens has been granted to very few.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom40.xviii.i.html

Wow Stephen, for having "been raised" in FBC, your theology is certainly warped. For you to even contemplate the possibility of Jesus consorting with Mary Magadalene since he was a "whoremonger" makes me wonder if your membership to the church was merely a formality. I'm sorry, anyone who claims that they love Christ would be appalled at the accusation and would certainly not take some revisionist historian's word for it. River has cited numerous websites and sources for his arguments. I have yet to see one from you.

Wow, for a group full of Christians, you sure did spend a lot of your time during the season of "christ" on this forum, lol.  I don't believe in all this hoo-ha and even I managed to stay away for almost and entire week  ;)

Quote from: stephendare on December 31, 2007, 09:56:38 AM
...Perhaps you think that quantity is more important than quality, but I for one don't.

And as someone who believes in torture, as you have stated in numerous places elsewhere, I would certainly think twice before joining any argument about Christian Theology.

Ah yes, let's pick up another straw man argument in referring to my stance on torture. If we applied that logic Stephen, I could say that you should think twice as well, considering your vehement (and rather violent) hatred of our current president and other Christian leaders which you have also stated "in numerous places elsewhere".

What you are proposing in your comparison of charges against Jesus and Mohammed is that they are one and the same. If you truly consider yourself a believer, I think that comparison would equate to heresy. Besides, the Koran has documented evidence (in context AND literal interpretations) of Mohammed's heresy, lunacy, and warped theology. That, along with documented evidence in the Hadith, indicates that the prophet did practice pedophilia with his marriage to a sexually underdeveloped girl. Where in the NT does it indicate the Jesus was whoremonger? Where in the OT does it indicate that King David had concubines who were children? How about Solomon?

2nd-pancake, secularists, atheists, and other non-believers like to think that "true" Christians just sit in a church while holding hands and singing Kum Ba Yah, but we have arguments and debates many times. What's important is how we resolve them and treat others in the process.

Quote from: Charleston native on December 31, 2007, 11:07:34 AM
2nd-pancake, secularists, atheists, and other non-believers like to think that "true" Christians just sit in a church while holding hands and singing Kum Ba Yah, but we have arguments and debates many times. What's important is how we resolve them and treat others in the process.

Quite the contrary, which is why I'm a "non-beliver".  Truth is, I AM a believer, just not in a god.  Being an atheist doesn't mean you have no morals, principles or other values, it simply means you don't believe in a supernatural being overseeing your life...that only YOU control what does/does not happen and through your free-will, can exercise your beliefs. 

It never ceases to amaze me how many "non-believers" know more about Christianity than those who claim to be "believers", and how many believers know even less about beliefs contrary to their own.  The difference between you and I is I've read many books and listened to many ideas, came to a rational and logical conclusion that everyone has the right to believe and practice their beliefs as they wish.  You read one book, took it as the one and only gospel,  and condemned all others who didn't/don't follow your beliefs. 

You say you debate and argue, but the fact of the matter is, you only argue over one thing, the interpretation of the bible.  If you truely questioned anything that was written in the gospel, why, you'd be committing a moral sin because you wouldn't have faith.  Organized religion exists because of blind faith.  Free-will is evil, one must be guided not choose.  These are the beliefs of Christianity and many other faith-based religions.

My original comment was made in jest, however it's apparant that it wasn't received well by you, or maybe you were just so offended by Stephan's comments that the laugh-factor didn't score high when you read it.  No matter, one thing is certain; you, and all members of your religious organization, will have no "resolution" until everyone you've come into contact with has been converted to your way of thinking.  And since the only way to do this is through manipulation and/or force, the way others are "treated in the process" is appallingly obvious.

Quote from: second_pancake on December 31, 2007, 11:37:39 AM
...No matter, one thing is certain; you, and all members of your religious organization, will have no "resolution" until everyone you've come into contact with has been converted to your way of thinking.  And since the only way to do this is through manipulation and/or force, the way others are "treated in the process" is appallingly obvious.

Second_pancake, what absolute nonsense. It has nothing to do with any way of thinking, nor is it done through manipulation or force, and for you to conclude that, I truly feel sorry for you.

You have no possible idea how I came to my belief, and for you to assume that I just blindly read 1 book just shows your ignorance in my beliefs as well as the Christian belief. It is not a sin to question our faith, and by praying and investigating, one's faith is made stronger. That includes reading other books that are contrary to what the Lord says. So, sorry to not fit your stereotype. BTW, my earlier comment was made to you in order to clarify that it's OK to disagree, even in churches. It wasn't meant to slander you in any way.

Stephen, I never said that they didn't have multiple wives. I merely asked for physical, Scriptural proof of pedophilia, and you have shown none. Your use of 1 Kings to claim Judeo-Christian approval of pedophilia is, to quote a word you use, "balderdash". For starters, where is your Scriptural proof (or any other for that matter) that she was 11 years old? Second, stick to your own advice about reading:

Quote1 Kings 1:1-4
1 When King David was old and well advanced in years, he could not keep warm even when they put covers over him.

2 So his servants said to him, "Let us look for a young virgin to attend the king and take care of him. She can lie beside him so that our lord the king may keep warm."

3 Then they searched throughout Israel for a beautiful girl and found Abishag, a Shunammite, and brought her to the king.

4 The girl was very beautiful; she took care of the king and waited on him, but the king had no intimate relations with her.

So, regardless if the girl was young, we have documented evidence that David DID NOT sleep with her.

As far as your other Scriptural examples, I find it perplexing that you are quick to cast judgement on the people in the OT and NT for their lack of character and sinful activities, but you insist in the holiness and complete purity of Mohammed. If you actually read the Bible and understood the entire context of those passages you listed, you would know especially that these books in the OT were historical references. I have read parts of the Koran...you'd be amazed how you can find these things on the internet. The Koran does not give historical accounts; it goes through a looooong set of instructions, basically. Sure, there is poetry in the verses, but that does not lend credibility to it, IMO.

Quote from: stephendare on December 31, 2007, 05:02:52 PM
David didnt penetrate her in that instance, because he was already impotent, Dave.

It wasnt from a lack of trying.  The bible says that she slept with him naked however.

Source? Book, chapter, and verse, please.

QuoteI'm not sure what you mean by my casting judgement on people dead over 4 thousand years however.  Nor am I suggesting that Muhamed was anything more than what he claimed to be, a Man.

But Jesus did not make the same claim; therein lies the huge difference. Sorry if I wasn't clear on casting judgement...it appeared that you were using many of the actions of people in the OT and equivocating their actions with ones in Islam.

QuoteI am suggesting that Jerry Vines intentionally contributed to warmongering when he accused Muhamed of being both demon posessed and a pedophile when clearly he was neither.

Again, a blatantly false accusation. If a Christian knows or considers that Islam is a false religion, it is thereby believed that Mohammed's words were not inspired by God. True, it's not definite that a demon possessed him, but the possibility does exist. We will continue to disagree here.

QuoteI made the point that this criticism of Muhamed is not believed by Muslims, nor is it backed up with a lot of fact, but rather latter day insinuation on the part of his critics.

Much the same way that people have made spurious claims about Jesus based on our scriptures and content.

Of course the criticism will not be believed by Muslims, but as far as facts, all one has to do is to quote the Koran. As always, we will disagree here. However, I will say that if one is just a mere observer and is just studying all facets of religion, there is a ton of critical material to sort through.

Quote from: second_pancake on December 31, 2007, 10:33:58 AM
Wow, for a group full of Christians, you sure did spend a lot of your time during the season of "christ" on this forum, lol.  I don't believe in all this hoo-ha and even I managed to stay away for almost and entire week  ;)

Wow.  First, thanks you for judging us and second bravo, you’ve managed to “out do us Christians” this holiday season.  ;D

Quote from: stephendare on December 31, 2007, 07:40:10 PM
aha!

common ground.

Indeed.

Praise the Lord!  ;)

Quote from: second_pancake on December 31, 2007, 10:33:58 AM
Wow, for a group full of Christians, you sure did spend a lot of your time during the season of "christ" on this forum, lol.  I don't believe in all this hoo-ha and even I managed to stay away for almost and entire week  ;)

I would urge you to reconsider this.  Your eternal soul is in jeopardy.

Yep.  Apparently it's yahweh or the highway around these here parts .

Quote from: gatorback on December 31, 2007, 09:11:11 PM

Wow.  First, thanks you for judging us and second bravo, you’ve managed to “out do us Christians” this holiday season.  ;D
[/quote]

Well, you know, I try.  That's what my purpose in life is anyhow; to judge and out-do ;)

Quote from: RiversideGator on January 01, 2008, 04:33:01 PM

I would urge you to reconsider this.  Your eternal soul is in jeopardy.
[/quote]

Lol, well, that would be a problem if I believe in an afterlife, wouldn't it?   :D

As for the reply from Charleston (which I have declined to insert as it's just so damned long), here's some reading for you. Take it for whatever it may be worth:

On Force:

tr.v.   forced, forc·ing, forc·es

To compel through pressure or necessity: I forced myself to practice daily. He was forced to take a second job.
To gain by the use of force or coercion: force a confession.
To inflict or impose relentlessly: He forced his ideas upon the group. 
To produce with effort and against one's will: force a laugh in spite of pain.

con·vert1      /v. kənˈvɜrt; n. ˈkɒnvɜrt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[v. kuhn-vurt; n. kon-vurt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
â€"verb (used with object)
1. to change (something) into a different form or properties; transmute; transform. 
2. to cause to adopt a different religion, political doctrine, opinion, etc.: to convert the heathen. 

Consider this (the above) when you think of The New Testament which is widely known (and accepted) to be the part of the bible in which instruction is given on how to convert "non-believers."  How can one, by definition, convert a non-believer (specifically Jews in the NT) if some means of force isn't used? If facts or information were presented in a manner that allows someone to seek out, listen, research, and make a decision on his/her own, then they were not converted, but rather, they accepted a belief through their own reasoning.  Jesus himself (in the bible) sought others out to listen to him, and later said to those that didn't convert that since they have made a choice not to believe that they will spend eternity in hell.  Conform or have eternal damnation.  Believe or die.  That's not force?

And if you just read that and said, "why, that's not me...that's not how I believe", then that goes back to my point about your "debating" about beliefs not being that at all, but merely being about the interpretation of the bible.  You all have the same belief that there is a God that rules your life, the only debate is in what capacity based on how each of you choose to interpret what you're reading.  You can either take it literally, which is what is written in the Old Testament you SHOULD be doing...taking God's word as his word and living by it in its entirety (which in the New Testament states the conversion of non-believers by believers is necessary), or not, to which you can not consider yourself a practicing Christian.  We can debate that point all day but when it all boils down, A is A.  It is what it is. It's not "ok" to "disagree...in churches".  Picking and choosing pieces to believe in...saying you believe in God and the bible but you don't believe you have to have "blind-faith" or evangelize, is the equivalent of me saying I'm aethiest, believing that it's absurd to think a super-natural being can oversee my life, but then saying I believe in ghosts or an afterlife.


And in regard to faith:

faith       /feɪθ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[feyth] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
â€"noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability. 
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact. 
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims. 
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty. 
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith. 
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith. 
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles. 
8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved. 


For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

â€"Romans 1:17 

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the people of old received their commendation. By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

â€"Hebrews 11:1-6

Hmm, just those two scriptures alone would lead one to believe that in order to call oneself "Christian" you would have to live by faith, no?  And since faith, by definition, means you believe regardless of facts or other information, it leads one to believe you do not question faith, because in doing so, you have no faith.  So, I guess your argument is contingent on one thing, what the definition of "faith" and "sin" actually are, eh?

This isn't personal, I dont' even know you, or anyone else here for that matter, nor is it some attempt at trying to condemn you for your beliefs, my beliefs are contigentent upon religious freedom after all and I'm not known to be a hypocrite.To be Christian is not about rejecting all other forms of religion or belief after you've looked at them and thought them to be out of your character.  It's not like choosing a career or buying a car.  Christianity is not about choosing, it's about believing in God and Jesus Christ as your saviour...simply believing.  And to come by this belief, you read the bible...one book, believe what you've read to be 100% factual and live each day of your life by those words and that doctrine.  Period.

That's just to much reading in a single rant in a break room thread!  I'm glad you're back however.  Peace Out!

I did however, managed to read your last paragraph and don't agree that "simply believing" is what it's about.  You're called to do somethings I believe like share your time, talents and treasures. 

Quote from: gatorback on January 02, 2008, 01:45:23 PM
That's just to much reading in a single rant in a break room thread!  I'm glad you're back however.  Peace Out!

ROFLMAO.  I know, but I was on a roll.  Could you imagine if I had included the original quote to which I responding? It would have probably taken up all available space on the server ;)

Quote from: second_pancake on January 02, 2008, 01:03:04 PM

Quote from: RiversideGator on January 01, 2008, 04:33:01 PM

I would urge you to reconsider this.  Your eternal soul is in jeopardy.

Lol, well, that would be a problem if I believe in an afterlife, wouldn't it?   :D[/quote]

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on the case), it doesnt matter whether you believe in it or not.  The afterlife will come to pass.

Lol.  Well, the irony in all of the differences of opinion posted here, is that no matter our beliefs, NONE of us will be able to come back and say, I told you so ;)

you two! 

Quote from: second_pancake on January 02, 2008, 06:51:00 PM
Lol.  Well, the irony in all of the differences of opinion posted here, is that no matter our beliefs, NONE of us will be able to come back and say, I told you so ;)

Are you sure about that?  I think when we meet up with our family in friends in heaven we'll all have a good laugh or two.

I think Hoffman mentioned "enduring self" once making him a reincarnationist.  He's probably already back as a dogcow.  Moof!

Vines is gone?

Quote from: gatorback on January 02, 2008, 07:21:21 PM
you two! 

Quote from: second_pancake on January 02, 2008, 06:51:00 PM
Lol.  Well, the irony in all of the differences of opinion posted here, is that no matter our beliefs, NONE of us will be able to come back and say, I told you so ;)

Are you sure about that?  I think when we meet up with our family in friends in heaven we'll all have a good laugh or two.

Dude, I said "come BACK", lol.  If I don't believe in ghosts or spirits than the odds of me seeing your celestial being stand before me laughing, is highly unlikely, and since those who believe in reincarnation never come back as another person, but as an animal that doesn't have the capacity to speak the english language, you could bark at me all you want but I'd never hear "I told you so", lol. ;)

Great!  Vines never really fed me while I was there.  With Vines it was about the man and not the lamb.  Kinda backwards huh?

stephen:  katrina, the war in iraq, and spending : that's  george bush

are you saying you have no confidence in this administration?

Stephen, I'm not saying that I don't believe you, but how do you know all this about Vines? I wouldn't doubt that the man might indeed be a "pharisee", since I have problems with the Southern Baptist Convention and its functions. There are also a few pastors who definitely have disappointed me in their witness, or lack thereof.

So are you in any committee meetings? Where is the information coming from? I don't doubt you, but I think juicy information like that would be hard to find in the SBC newsletter of FBC bulletin.

I see. Well, when we finally move down there, maybe I'll get to see some of this firsthand.

Is that church downtown as well? Where is it located?

Any other denomination (or non) churches that you would recommend? Does Jax have any EV-Free (Evangelical Free) churches?

Ah, I meant Evangelical Free, as in the denomination...not a denomination that is void of evangelicals, LOL. The denomination appears to be mostly in the Western US, but considering the size of Jax, I was wondering if there were any. I would actually prefer a church that is evangelical in nature, so it does not have to be Southern Baptist, but close to it. FBC will be my first pick to check out, though.

Delurking for a sec...

Charleston, there are a couple of Ev-Free churches in and around Jax but they're not in the downtown area. One is in Atlantic Beach (Sunrise Community Church) and the other is on Beach Blvd. near the Intercoastal (Eastside Community Church). I haven't been to either but I've heard good things about Sunrise.

My family and I go to the Church of Jacksonville (or CJAX) on the Southside. It's a fairly new (only about 5 years old now), big-ish church that is very diverse and offers plenty of good Word. It's certainly worth checking out.

... OK, back to lurking.  ;)

Quote from: Charleston native on December 11, 2007, 04:54:12 PM
Stephen, you are quite accurate in your statement about the lineage of Jews and Arabs. Yes, they both can trace their roots to Abraham, but the religions of Judaism and Islam are entirely different. Judaism has been around far longer than Islam; Islam was started around 700 AD. Muhammed himself traveled in caravans during the younger part of his life, and he picked up many bits and pieces from Jewish and Christian travelers. The God he calls Allah was actually the moon god out of the over 300 gods that were worshipped by Arabic pilgrims throughout Saudi Arabia.

As far as the sexual proclivities of Muhammed, you may be right...there is no concrete proof of his pedophilia, but I think you are being very disingenuous to the culture of some Arabic tribes, let alone the desires of man. You honestly think that there was no "hanky panky" going on? That's a little naive, IMO, especially when we are talking about a man with a huge ego and power trip.

That is incorrect. Allah was not the name of the moon god. In fact, the pre-islamic arabs never worshiped Allah directly. Allah was seen in the same light as the Hindus see god.

And to your second piont, there is no concrete proof show that Muhammad every actually did consumate his relationship with her, so why assume that he did?

shesanopenbook, thanks very much for the information. I'll take a look at those churches on Beach Blvd and in Atlantic Beach. CJAX sounds very good, too.

Quote from: fhrathore on January 19, 2008, 11:59:40 AM
That is incorrect. Allah was not the name of the moon god. In fact, the pre-islamic arabs never worshiped Allah directly. Allah was seen in the same light as the Hindus see god.

And to your second piont, there is no concrete proof show that Muhammad every actually did consumate his relationship with her, so why assume that he did?

<sigh> Here we go again. You are incorrect in your correction. Allah may not have been the original name of the moon god that Arabs worshipped, but you just admitted that he wasn't worshipped directly, and the reason for that is the moon god was 1 out of over 300 gods that were worshipped.

As for my 2nd point, you needed to read all of the posts and not just find one to start up the argument again:

Quote...Besides, the Koran has documented evidence (in context AND literal interpretations) of Mohammed's heresy, lunacy, and warped theology. That, along with documented evidence in the Hadith, indicates that the prophet did practice pedophilia with his marriage to a sexually underdeveloped girl...

Even if there was no documented evidence, there is nothing in the Koran or Hadith that states he didn't. And if you think that in Arab cultures, that men did not have intimate relations with all of their women (while they were considered 2nd class citizens), you're being pretty naive.

Read the Hadiths some time. They'll help you out. Check out the internet on the Ka'aba.

Even little trends like moons on top of all temples and in Muslim flags. It all comes together, like it or not.

Quote from: Charleston native on January 21, 2008, 05:06:44 PM
Even little trends like moons on top of all temples and in Muslim flags. It all comes together, like it or not.

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. The cresent moon and star has nothing to do with Islamic tradition. It was first used by the ottomans on their national flag. So the cresent moon and star is mostly a turkish tradition than religious. The fact that other nations have adopted the cresent moon and star is not out of some religious context, but merely for evoking the image and history of the Ottoman empire. Furthermore, the cresent moon does not adorn every single mosque that is built. The one here in Jax doesnt have one. You cannot make a connection between the design of a mosque to some religious doctrine. Am I to believe that stain glass holds a special place in Christian theology because it is present in many a church?

Quote from: Charleston native on January 21, 2008, 05:06:44 PM
Read the Hadiths some time. They'll help you out. Check out the internet on the Ka'aba.

I have read the Hadith, all of the Koran, and I have recently returned from the Ka'bah, and I have still not found any evidence that Islam accepts child molestation. Furthermore, I do not understand how researching the Ka'bah will help. What are we supposed to look for?

Listen guys, I know in my heart what is truth. Apparently, Stephen, you believe the Koran is truth. This is something we will continue to disagree with. And BTW, since when did Christian churches use Easter eggs and the Easter bunny as part of their worship or place of worship? Again (and again, and again, ad nauseum), we have another disingenuous argument. The bunny and eggs are secular creations that just about all Christian churches agree are not part of their doctrine or their place of worship.

Read some archaelogical and theological studies on this issue. You might be surprised. For example:

http://www.baptistpillar.com/bd0476.htm
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/islam.htm

Many scholars agree on this issue.

Our children's service has an easter egg hunt during Easter service with real easter eggs and real easter bunnys.  I know, I helped make a basket for that day we auctioned some off for charity.  I like the ears mostly.

Do the kids pray to the Easter bunny? Do they take the Easter eggs and put them on top of the church steeple?

 Who didn't pray for lots of candy from the Easter bunny when they were growing up.

Quote from: Charleston native on January 22, 2008, 10:46:53 PM
Do the kids pray to the Easter bunny? Do they take the Easter eggs and put them on top of the church steeple?

They would if their parents told them to.

Keep on legitimizing this religion, Stephen; your example is blatantly false while there are archaeological finds and studies that show Allah did come from the moon god.

Quote from: Charleston native on January 22, 2008, 10:46:53 PM
Do the kids pray to the Easter bunny? Do they take the Easter eggs and put them on top of the church steeple?

Not every church could afford a nice steeple, ours was mostly a flat roof but we did God's work from it.   I've been reading...easter eggs go back further then even Easter itself.  That's Wacked!
In fact, some even make Easter egg rolls.  Even Allah had Easter Eggs.

(http://www.mostmerciful.net/modules/Easter/images/210px-So.jpg)

So what's everybody doing this Easter?  Anybody celebrating the The Season of Lent.

What I do not understand is this. Let's say Allah comes from the Moon God, so what? What does this prove? Actually, the word Allah is a generic arabic word used to describe god. It is a gender neutral word that any arab, Muslim or otherwise, would use to describe God...

Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 05, 2007, 09:00:36 AM
Last time I checked the Baptist Church still taught to "hate the sin but love the sinner," For those who take the scriptures as fact without flaw, their teaching is often quite deep and thoughful. However, when the Bible labels something as wrong or as a sin, so will the Baptist Church, sadly, this is often taken as a personal attack from the pastor, rather then the source.

Dr. Vines was entitled to his opinion of Mohamad, as are the rest of us for better or worse...

Mohamad called all of the Jews and Christians "People of the Book", until he gained enough military power, then changed that to "Devils".

The Mormon Church, says that all other churches are wrong, their leaders corrupt, they have a form of godlyness and draw near with their lips but are far from him with thier hearts.

The Watchtower claims that the prophets of old appeared and made a survey of all churches, finding that only the Jehovahs Witnesses were the keepers of truth. They even built an estate for the "prophets" in Southern California, which their leader lived in (to keep it) for the angelic beings.

The Catholics, though liberal in this Country, haven't given an inch in the rest of the World, they still teach, "On CHURCH, one faith, one baptism" meaning of course their own. They alone are the keepers of all truth, and light, Gods representatives on Earth, and have the dogma to back it up.

Bottom line as I see it, we spend a great deal of time on these forum pages crying over the sins, real and imagined of FBC Jacksonville. Then spin on a dime and whine over why there isn't more to our downtown urban core. Wake up folks, here we have a "club Baptist" that is active almost every day of the week, and it brings 10-20,000 people downtown 1-5 times a week. It's as good as having a professional basketball team playing nearly every night 365. Perhaps we should see these folks as customers for Transit, Restaurants, and Retail, rather then ranting on about their personal beliefs.

Ocklawaha

Heckuva post. never before had I considered this aspect.

Having attended Trinity Christian Acadamy in my junior high years, I still have little love for FBC. I will not live under their dogma, and they are as much a political force as they are religious.

Quote from: stephendare on February 16, 2008, 12:52:19 PM
First Baptist categorizes gay people, masturbaters, and wet dreamers under the category 'sexual brokenness'.

They have a class for it.

Wow, Stephen!  That would be an interesting one to attend.  When is it offered?

The mind boggles!  What a fantastic play it would make.  Can't you just imagine some of the opportunities for a good writer?

Why is it that religious people, except for maybe Jews, are so afraid of sex?

Get a taste of religion - lick a witch!