first baptist featured on morons.com

[RiversideGator]

which parts, River?

Almost all of the above is public record, with the exception of the teachings against miscegenation, which is a personal memory, observed firsthand.

I dont have a special hatred for First Baptist, where did that idea come from?  Ive been a member of the church since 1986, actually.

However I have watched the church, along with my once beloved republican party slide into a chaos controlled by rightwing fanatics who have recreated great institutions into organs of hatred and destruction.

It would be hard for me to dislike most First Baptists, River, since most of my family ( a large large group of people) are long time members there.

But starting with the Muhamed taunts I am finding that my research is making the subject far less glamorous than they once were to me.

If the below is "public record", please produce said records:

From promoting the racism natural to the south to the pulpit when the church formed rather than sit with blacks at their original home, Bethel Baptist, to the preaching from the 50s and 60s pulpits that blacks and whites intermarrying was a sin that God especially hated and produced retarded children, to the present day practice of recommending brainwashing and electroshock (!?!?!) therapy to 'cure' people from being gay, the underlying anti christian spirit of the church has been manifested for decades.

Also, segregation was very mainstream in Jacksonville and the rest of the South for over a hundred years after the end of the Civil War.  How was FBC any different in this respect?

[gatorback]

However I have watched the church, along with my once beloved republican party slide into a chaos controlled by rightwing fanatics who have recreated great institutions into organs of hatred and destruction.

I too have personally observed that behavior and am happy to distance myself from all that adversity.

[RiversideGator]

Also, back to your original post, if you believe that the Bible is true, then Muslims and Jews cannot go to heaven because they do not believe in Christ as their Lord and Savior.  I personally think though that there is special dispensation for the Jews based on the original covenant between God and the Jews.  As for good Muslims, who knows.  Maybe God will allow them into Heaven too but this is not what the Bible says.  That decision is above my pay grade though.   

As for Muhammed, he had some serious issues, including marrying and having sex with young girls - an action which today is a felony in the US.  He had 11 to 13 wives, he was involved in violence against his neighbors and had sex with one of his "wives" when she was just 9 years old.  This is hardly a Godly man.  Hence the demon possessed pedophile phrase.  When you actually read about Muhammed, it makes total sense.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammed

[RiversideGator]

Also, segregation was very mainstream in Jacksonville and the rest of the South for over a hundred years after the end of the Civil War.  How was FBC any different in this respect?

This is an easy (although in Jacksonville's case, lazy..) assumption River.

During the turn of the century and throughout the beginning of the 20th, Jacksonville was actually rather arcadian, as evidenced by the fact that a good number of white congregants remained at our original Bethel Baptist Church, welcoming in the presence of the black newcomers.  The members who withdrew to form First Baptist were considered very out of touch with the mainstream of Jacksonville at the time.

Consider as well the sterling anti racist histories of the other places of worship downtown at the time, starting with the remarkable civil rights work of the Snyder Memorial church dating to the 1880s, the presence of a comparatively gigantic Jewish Center on Confederate Park in Springfield, and the crusading anti racism work of both the Episcopal and Catholic Churches downtown.

It wasnt until after the depression that the city started becoming so racist ---totally coincidental with the massive turnover of the city from mainly episcopal sensibilities to primarily baptist.

Interesting revisionist history.  Is this a bit of spoken word art which you have just created out of whole cloth, Stephen?

[gatorback]

I'm not sure what you mean by all that, except that I think the deal is if you believe what Jesus said which is love God, yourself and your neighbor...to me it's less about a book.  Churches have been wrong before.  Remember that "Universe revolves around the Earth" thingy that got Copernicus excommunicated?  The book is open to interpretations which are what Stephen is pointing out.

[RiversideGator]

BTW Stephen, from Bethel Baptist Church's own website, the history seems a bit different than you recall.  First, before the Civil War it was quite common for blacks and slaves to go to the same church with the black members sitting in the balcony and the whites sitting on the ground floor.  This is because there werent many black only churches (many states even outlawed this before 1865 in various slave ordinances in order to discourage slave rebellion) and many towns in the South were too small to support multiple churches anyway.  So, whites and blacks went to church together at that time.  After the end of the Civil War, blacks were free to form their own churches and did so.  Apparently, the white and black members of what are now FBC and Bethel split in the immediate aftermath of the Civil War.

For more on this read below:

At the close of the Civil War, an effort was made to separate the Colored and White members but an agreement could not be reached over possession of the property. The opposing fractions went to court and the decision was in favor of the Colored members since they were the majority. They retained the name of the Bethel Baptist Church and were the rightful owners of the Church Street property. A short while after the court’s decision, the Colored members sold the property on Church Street to their White brethren and purchased a lot on the northwest corner of Union and Pine Streets (now Main). In 1868, they erected a one-room frame building where the Bethel Baptist Church congregation worshipped for twenty-seven years and grew from a few souls to several hundred. Also from the separation, the White members established the Tabernacle Baptist Church, located on Church Street, which was later named First Baptist Church (Downtown).

http://www.bethelite.org/about.html

[gatorback]

Well the bible speaks of three heavens:

2 Corinthians 12:2 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.


I think there's room for us all.  We need to come together to solve our problems.

[gatorback]

hear hear! stephendare I think you just identified the 3 heavens.  I was wonder where they are!

Heaven 1:  The heaven for people with multiple wives
Heaven 2:  The heaven for people with "relations" with Jesus
and Last,
      but not least
Heaven 3:  The place for the rest of us!

Thanks for clarifying that.  Love you in Jesus brother!

[RiversideGator]

No, River. 

While I don't have a talent for fiction like claiming that the Bible speaks of Muslims being specifically banned from heaven, despite the fact that Islam developed much later than the canon----nor do I have the complete lack of irony necessary for such a fabrication!----My statements are based in the firm foundation of the history of Jacksonville. 

"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6

Let me recommend you to Emily Lisska for an excellent essay by the Historical society regarding the Snyder Memorial Church, given at the time of the transfer of the property to the River City Band, of which organization I was highly involved at the time.

Actually, my grandparents were married in the downtown Snyder Church - a Methodist Church.  What is your point exactly here?

One need merely go back through a couple of threads posted on this very site to verify that there is a historic building with a commanding view of Confederate Park called "The Jewish Center".  One would also take for granted that the name of the building might suggest its original purpose.

The old Jewish Center overlooks Klutho Park in Springfield, not Confederate Park.
http://apps2.coj.net/parksinternet/parkdetails.asp?parkid=86

And, who ever said that Jacksonville was a hotbed for anti-semitism?  I know it wasnt me.  Many Jews lived in Jacksonvillle and the South going back to before the Founding of the US and the South was not known to be particularly anti-semitic as a region.  In fact, the first Jewish Senator in the US was Senator Yulee from Florida in the years just before the Civil War.

And one needs merely to read the Jacksonville Newspapers from the era to garner the rest, which incidentally, I have.

Then post some articles to support your contentions.

As for the facts of the matter regarding the predominance of episcopal vs Baptist churches, that is pretty much an established tradition in this city, as witnessed by the relative size and ages of the various structures.

  Nearly all churches downtown are of the same age because of the Great Fire of 1901 which destroyed almost all of Jacksonville's churches.  I am not aware of any huge size differentials either.  If this is true, it is probably because there were more Baptist churches than Episcopalian ones, the Baptists being by nature more willing to split into competing churches.

Even when the Baptist Churches were successful, they were in many cases based on their similarity to the Episcopal variety, as witnessed by the nearly catholic appearances of the Riverside Baptist Church.

hahaha.  This is funny.  Actually, the Riverside Baptist structure was designed by Addison Mizner of Palm Beach fame at the request from his mother that he design a church.  Upon completion it was considered too ostentatious for some of the original congregation who complained that the design of the church was better suited to Episcopal or Catholic tastes.  Today, it is not a very successful church in terms of overall attendance although it is an interesting and beautiful structure.

BTW, this info courtesy of Jacksonville's Architectural Heritage by Wayne Wood et al, page 141.

Hopefully all these little details will give you something to read and educate yourself about River.

It will definitely make your input more salient.

I hope that the facts I have posted provide a useful cure to Stephen's historical fiction.  BTW Stephen, I am a student of history generally and particularly the history of Jacksonville and the South.  In fact, I have a BA in History.  Also, my family has been living in Jacksonville for 106 years.  So, if you have any questions, I would be happy to answer them.   

[RiversideGator]

As for Muhammed, he had some serious issues, including marrying and having sex with young girls - an action which today is a felony in the US.  He had 11 to 13 wives, he was involved in violence against his neighbors and had sex with one of his "wives" when she was just 9 years old.  This is hardly a Godly man.  Hence the demon possessed pedophile phrase.  When you actually read about Muhammed, it makes total sense

Are you serious?

Solomon and David had numerous wives, and the practice of multiple wives occurs to this day.

This is at least as credible as claiming that Christ was a whoremonger since he consorted with Mary of Magdalene.  Or that he was no better than theives since he was hung between two of them.

Or going all literalist and claiming that an erotic relationship existed between Jesus and the apostle John, whom he called his 'beloved'.

Im sorry River, I just dont think that you can trust a rival belief to fairly describe the beliefs practices and biographies of any religion.

Interesting bit of heresy here.  Let's see, point by point:
1)  I dont believe Solomon or David had sex with 9 year old girls.  Also, the Old Testament has been largely superceded by the New Testament.  In any event, the Bible does not provide for the arrival of Muhammed or for the salvation of his followers.  Hence, he must be a false prophet.
2)  Christ did not "consort" with Mary Magdalene.  This has been invented by people who seek to cast doubt on the divinity of Jesus Christ.  In fact, Jesus was without sin.  Remember the 40 days and 40 nights in the wilderness.  Matthew 4:1-11
3)  The thieves crucified with Jesus were probably intended to be a counter-example and also provided Jesus with the opportunity to save one of them at the last moments of his life. 

39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Luke 23:39-43

4)  To lend any credibility to the idea that Jesus and John were homosexual is simply absurd and without evidence.

[RiversideGator]

hear hear! stephendare I think you just identified the 3 heavens.  I was wonder where they are!

Heaven 1:  The heaven for people with multiple wives
Heaven 2:  The heaven for people with "relations" with Jesus
and Last,
      but not least
Heaven 3:  The place for the rest of us!

Thanks for clarifying that.  Love you in Jesus brother!

I believe that there is one heaven and one hell. 

[RiversideGator]

BTW, according to John Calvin, the 3 heavens reference is explained as follows:

Even to the third heaven. He does not here distinguish between the different heavens in the manner of the philosophers, so as to assign to each planet its own heaven. On the other hand, the number three is made use of (κατ ἐζοχὴν) by way of eminence, to denote what is highest and most complete. Nay more, the term heaven, taken by itself, denotes here the blessed and glorious kingdom of God, which is above all the spheres, 887887     â€œPar dessus tons les cieux;” â€" “Above all the heavens.”  and the firmament itself, and even the entire frame-work of the world. Paul, however, not contenting himself with the simple term, 888888     â€œNon content de nommer simplement le ciel;” â€" “Not contented with simply employing the term heaven.”   adds, that he had reached even the greatest height, and the innermost recesses. For our faith scales heaven and enters it, and those that are superior to others in knowledge get higher in degree and elevation, but to reach the third heavens has been granted to very few.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom40.xviii.i.html

[Charleston native]

Wow Stephen, for having "been raised" in FBC, your theology is certainly warped. For you to even contemplate the possibility of Jesus consorting with Mary Magadalene since he was a "whoremonger" makes me wonder if your membership to the church was merely a formality. I'm sorry, anyone who claims that they love Christ would be appalled at the accusation and would certainly not take some revisionist historian's word for it. River has cited numerous websites and sources for his arguments. I have yet to see one from you.

[second_pancake]

Wow, for a group full of Christians, you sure did spend a lot of your time during the season of "christ" on this forum, lol.  I don't believe in all this hoo-ha and even I managed to stay away for almost and entire week 

[Charleston native]

...Perhaps you think that quantity is more important than quality, but I for one don't.

And as someone who believes in torture, as you have stated in numerous places elsewhere, I would certainly think twice before joining any argument about Christian Theology.

Ah yes, let's pick up another straw man argument in referring to my stance on torture. If we applied that logic Stephen, I could say that you should think twice as well, considering your vehement (and rather violent) hatred of our current president and other Christian leaders which you have also stated "in numerous places elsewhere".

What you are proposing in your comparison of charges against Jesus and Mohammed is that they are one and the same. If you truly consider yourself a believer, I think that comparison would equate to heresy. Besides, the Koran has documented evidence (in context AND literal interpretations) of Mohammed's heresy, lunacy, and warped theology. That, along with documented evidence in the Hadith, indicates that the prophet did practice pedophilia with his marriage to a sexually underdeveloped girl. Where in the NT does it indicate the Jesus was whoremonger? Where in the OT does it indicate that King David had concubines who were children? How about Solomon?

2nd-pancake, secularists, atheists, and other non-believers like to think that "true" Christians just sit in a church while holding hands and singing Kum Ba Yah, but we have arguments and debates many times. What's important is how we resolve them and treat others in the process.