first baptist featured on morons.com

[second_pancake]

We are blessed in Jacksonville to have such a huge and active church. Wouldn't matter one hoot to me if it were any Christian church. Frankly, from a City standpoint, it wouldn't matter much whoever they were. We have 20,000 persons that pop in and out of downtown several times a week. This is like having our own NBA team, without the riots! I think it's time to quit trying to shoot one of the biggest and best things we have going for us and find a way to make these people a downtown fixture... Did you ever meet a Baptist that didn't go to dinner after Sunday service? Maybe that's a good place to start.
Ocklawaha

Whoa.  Wait a minute.  While FBC may bring a lot of business to the downtown area, they've also done a lot to destroy it...and I'm not talking from a spiritual standpoint.  Look at the footprint of the buildings devoted to that church alone compared to the others in downtown, or even in the other areas outside of downtown.  How many square feet are used just for parking??  It's insane!  Why is it necessary to destroy that which can be reused?  Why promote polluting what God supposedly gave us, by building more and more parking?  If people so loved the EARTH and respected spirtuatlity, they would live humbly.  Material wealth does not enrich the spirit, and yet, by the looks of many of these uber-churches in town, you would think quite the opposite.

[Ocklawaha]

Did you know the debit on the parking facilities, is paid by the parking facilities? True! Fact is they are leased to major Downtown businesses during the week. American Heritage Life Insurance, back in the day, helped get that started. The lots are used on weekdays by commuters, and weekends and evenings by the church goers. Sounds like win-win to me, since with a church, someone has to have parking. Of course a LRT line to each members house would be my mode of choice, but reality?

Ocklawaha

[gatorback]

Okay, I'm going to need more coffee for this because I have a huge issue with downtown parking!

[Ocklawaha]

Transportation guys are weird Gatorback, I LOVE LRT, I like buses, A 380 hp Dedec engine smells sweet to me, I even think highway interchanges have a certain sexy flow to them (or maybe it's the xanax?)

Try some coffee with a couple of those little buttons off those Texas Cacti. Use lot's of sugar because those little buttons tast like CRAP... but within 20 minutes, you'll be conversing with the "Great Indian" and completely laid back!

(not that I ever did it, just read the book, seen the video, etc...)

Ocklawaha

[second_pancake]

Did you know the debit on the parking facilities, is paid by the parking facilities? True! Fact is they are leased to major Downtown businesses during the week. American Heritage Life Insurance, back in the day, helped get that started. The lots are used on weekdays by commuters, and weekends and evenings by the church goers. Sounds like win-win to me, since with a church, someone has to have parking. Of course a LRT line to each members house would be my mode of choice, but reality?

Ocklawaha

Yup.  I did and do know that...doesn't really address my major area of concern though.  It doesn't matter who uses the parking, but why it was built in the first place.  Remember Field of Dreams:  "If you build it, they will come."  If we keep destroying buildings to be replaced with parking garages, it only promotes the use of vehicles in downtown.  There are better ways...one of which you pointed out, albeit with a level of extremism.  No, we don't "have to have parking".  Parking is not the problem, the means of getting to and from, is.  Find a better mode of transportation and the parking garage will go the way of the horse and buggy.

While it's true that the parking garages owned by FBC (and leased by others), more than likely would have been built with or without FBC's presence, to me, the shame is owned by those who devised and worked the plan.

[gatorback]

I heard that all that property was given to FBC by old BFCers when they died.  I guess that makes it POFBC(Property of First Baptist Church.)   Given it's POFBC we really can't say what they can do with it can we?  Yes we have ordinances with respect to easements, etc., et at.  I wouldn't want anybody to tell me what to do on my property given I'm not out of line with spirit of the community.

I agree the from an art perspective it's hideously grotesque.  It reminds me of a bad nose job going bad.  This is what I’d do.  The lighthouse would look better at the Landing.  Give some of those bricks to HabiJax and put in some windows.   Heck, they really don’t need that large of a place either.  If they had multiple services (Which they don’t want to do because let’s face it, they are lazy and that would just mean more work) they’d never had needed all that sanctuary space.  Just think of all the homeless they could shelter there if they just got off their sanctified butts!

[Ocklawaha]

Yes and Yes, No Stephen, we don't disagree on the issue of running over the political machine in the name of religion. At our meeting with Hollingsworth, he had to leave to meet the pastor () of his church. I believe the church, FBC, or whatever, should have a place and frankly be allowed to speak it's mind. But that shouldn't keep us from say, selling the School Board property and old JEA facility to the Seminoles for a Hard Rock Casino. Downtown, we have homeless and wealth walking side by side, it SHOULD be so with people of faith or no faith as well. Want to build a club, bar and whatever? I'll be at the zoning meeting to support you... (*Damn, there goes my FBC membership!)

Second_Pancake, I also agree on the parking issue. Have you ever seen the numbers on the amount of land we have paved in the USA? We could cover 8 North Eastern states several inches deep with asphalt. In Jacksonville, we currently have no real alternative. Though I will say JTA caters to the churches, and the Sunday morning runs are fairly full of people going to various churches downtown. That's a good first step, but we now need to get into Light Rail, Trolley-Bus (not chip trucks that look like Trolleys), finish the skyway (WITH PARKING - AROUND the core, not within it). Once the system is up and running, then we can start selling off the parking for REAL and dense development.

If I remember the Church history I read a million years ago, in the 1950's the FBC was bankrupt, all it's buildings were in hock. AHL insurance, came in with an offer to nearly give away the Lindsey? building and it's parking garage. That combined with some creative membership outreach helped the church turn the corner, guess the've never looked back. Thing is, they are approachable, why isn't a skywalk connecting the church to the Rosa Parks? The devil is in the details. If it was, perhaps they could park in the giant empty Kings Avenue garage...

Ocklawaha

[second_pancake]

Gator, not only that, but just think of the example they could set for the city if they used some of their money for a shuttle service of their own, toting their parishoners to and from the facility instead of them having to use their vehicles.  I've seen almost destitute churches in the area that utilize that type of service so it can't be too expensive...far less than the cost of a new builiding or parking garage.  They could (even further) promote themselves as being the first eco-concious church in Jacksonville. "First Baptist Church of Jacksonville: Where our love of God shows in EVERYTHING we do!"  Ok, so that's probably a little too much, we're talking about physical pollution and not mental pollution; after all, Rome wasn't built in a day   Seriously though, how great would it be to have an organization like that with such pull in our community, to step up?  Even better, since it is their property as you pointed out, why not start dictating to those they lease the garages to what they can and can not do?  Why not further shamelessly promote themselves by allowing only a specified number/type of vehicle to be parked on the premises..."green" vehicles?  I think we all know the answer to that one.

[gatorback]

Gator, not only that, but just think of the example they could set for the city if they used some of their money for a shuttle service of their own, toting their parishoners to and from the facility instead of them having to use their vehicles.

What a great idea.  I wonder how many FBC members carpool.  Does FBC offer Carpool Spots closer to the front of the line.   IBM offers Carpool Spots up front and guess what?  People use them.  What if FBC had the entire 1st  floor of their garage available to anybody who carpooled to downtown for free--all week long.  I'd like to see that.

[Ocklawaha]

Right after you left the Starbucks meeting last week Stephen, a "mob" of folks walked by outside. Suddenly a gal saw me inside and started waving. I looked and it was my nephews wife, I hadn't seen but once since Colombia! I walked out the door and caught them at the light. "Come on in girl! What are you doing down here this time of night?"

"I'm with a group from FBC, we decided to cruise downtown and hand out Christmas packages and food to the homeless..."

As for the shuttle buses? Maybe there is hope? I noted a string of American Coach chartered mini-buses in front of the Sunday school buildings this Sunday. Looks like they ARE providing transportation to those who need it.

Ocklawaha

[gatorback]

It's sad what they are feeding them too.  They're not out there handing them tickets to god and a way out of their situation.

[gatorback]

I agree stephendare.  It's not the all of the people just a few nut jobs there asserting their dominance over others.  Happened before will happen again.  I went to a Lutheran Church today and the preacherman preached the "one way...the only true way...."  bla bla bla then I found I couldn't take communion  because I've not been "assimilated" into their ways (and because I'm not a member, most likely in good standing which probably means a verification record of my giving.)  So I left.  I wonder how many people at FBC have done just that because they weren't being "fed"?

[RiversideGator]

Can you provide any proof of your accusations, Stephen, and any evidence that FBC was any different than other churches of its era?  I know you have a special hatred for FBC, probably due to personal reasons, but evidence would be nice here.

[RiversideGator]

Also, what is wrong with FBC advocating the view that the Bible is the inerrant word of God?  This is actually pretty standard theology among most major Christian churches.

Infallibility and inerrancy refer to the original texts of the Bible. And while conservative scholars acknowledge the potential for human error in transmission and translation, modern translations are considered to "faithfully represent the originals".[3]

In their text on the subject, Geisler & Nix (1986) claim that scriptural inerrancy is established by a number of observations and processes, which include:[2]

        * the historical accuracy of the Bible
        * the Bible's claims of its own inerrancy
        * church history and tradition
        * one's individual experience with God

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_inerrancy

[RiversideGator]

So, since the Bible basically states that it is accurate if you claim to be a Christian you really must believe this also.  It is a matter of faith just as is the belief that Jesus was killed by the Romans and rose from the dead on the 3rd day.  This is really basic stuff and not outlandish.