Is Avondale Ready For A 7-Eleven?
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1397623388_ZFdMQXk-M.jpg)
A new 7-Eleven store opens for business somewhere in the world approximately every six and a half hours. One may soon be headed to Jacksonville's Shoppes of Avondale.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-jul-is-avondale-ready-for-a-7-eleven
My acceptance of a 7-Eleven would be based on the location of the building and parking. If they operate in the existing building and park in front then it wouldn't be such a good fit. Better would be a new building along the street with parking in the back. Are they planning to also sell gas?
There would be no gas.
What would be cool, is if they had some plug-in stations for electric cars.
Context sensitive is the key and RAP should be involved.(I'm sure they will be.)
If integrated with the surrounding shops correctly, I would walk there for a newspaper and Slurpee.
yeah, there are 7-elevens and then there are 7-ELEVENS, if this is a flagship store then sure it could be nice. I like the idea of the open air seating, and there coffee is quite good. I remember there used to be a fake 7-11 on the corner of McDuff and Post. :)
I think it has potential to be a very good addition. Looking at some of the other "urban" 7-11's, I can't help but be impressed.
I think it would be great- especially if it had more of a NYC bodega feel than a convient store feel. based on the pics in this article it looks like thats what they have been going for in urban areas.
I wish it would have gas. We only have a couple gas stations in all of Riverside, and they are always mobbed.
There's a convenience store four blocks away at Dancy and Park, one block from a gas station. We need another one? Surely we can do better.
If this were done exceptionally well--a new building in the character of the area, no parking lot, no gas-- maybe.... But when is the last time you saw one done well in the state of Florida? When I drive by convenience stores in the area (Springfield, Park/Oak Street in Avondale or Riverside), they seem to be dedicated magnets for dealers, street walkers and late night booze hounds. No matter how nice the signage is, this will not bode well for the neighborhood. Again, we can do better. I hope RAP steps up.
That said, I'd never go there and I live a few blocks away. Go away 7-11.
Really, Ubben - There are 3 in that same block from Dancy to Ingleside. The one next to the Dry Cleaners, the one next to the laundry mat & the AP (the one with the gas). They seem to do just fine and they each have their 'own' customer base. I go to the one across the street from Orsay when I want red-bull and I go to the AP for beer (although they both have a decent selection). I really don't go to the one at Dancy.
Would I go to a 7-11? You betcha! Would I stop going to the others? Nope.
I don't see how we can lose, as customers, with more options available. I think a properly planned store would do very well at that corner - although you might have to park around the block on a weekend instead of filling up a vacant lot. But since there's also a trolley stop in front of the brick, you could probably use that as well or catch the P-4 depending on where you're coming from. And look at the other bright side - they don't have to remove any trees to build a new building!
^^oh Ubben you have done it now! haha
Avondale should be happy they are getting any kind of retail. That's what us Springfield residents are told. So what's good for one is good for the other! I am kind of jealous actually. Wish it were opening on Main St!
I'd love to have 7-Eleven come to Springfield and downtown. I'm on Adams Street and it would be great to have more of a variety down here.
The shoppes already had more than one restaurant in the district when MoJo and Town came along. Do they need more? I think we take a slippery slope when we try to decide what the market should be and accept. The community would be better off making sure whatever comes in does so in a manner that strengthens the character of the area. If parking is a concern, perhaps there is a way to layout a new structure that promotes walkability and adds additional public parking in the rear of the site. If architecture is a concern, then work with the company to make sure a quality product is created that adds to walkability. If character is concerned, 7-Eleven has already proven that they can operate successfully in neighborhoods across the country with more sound demographics than anything that exists in Jacksonville, including Avondale.
Imo, there is little reason to believe that RAP or 7-Eleven don't have the leadership in place to make sure a quality product can happen. Btw, I was emailed several additional images of well designed stores this morning. I'll add a few of them later today.
Quote from: ubben on July 25, 2011, 10:37:42 AM
There's a convenience store four blocks away at Dancy and Park, one block from a gas station. We need another one? Surely we can do better.
If this were done exceptionally well--a new building in the character of the area, no parking lot, no gas-- maybe.... But when is the last time you saw one done well in the state of Florida? When I drive by convenience stores in the area (Springfield, Park/Oak Street in Avondale or Riverside), they seem to be dedicated magnets for dealers, street walkers and late night booze hounds. No matter how nice the signage is, this will not bode well for the neighborhood. Again, we can do better. I hope RAP steps up.
That said, I'd never go there and I live a few blocks away. Go away 7-11.
I don't care about the convenience store, that A&P is the only gas station around there, the next closest one is the Gate at Stockton and I-10, or the Shell in 5 Points. That's all we've got. One more in that location would do very well, and serve a need. Having lived here since the Shell on Saint Johns was open, I wish it were a gas station again. Maybe a nicer one this time, but still, the need exists.
Quote from: fsujax on July 25, 2011, 10:48:53 AM
^^oh Ubben you have done it now! haha
Avondale should be happy they are getting any kind of retail. That's what us Springfield residents are told. So what's good for one is good for the other! I am kind of jealous actually. Wish it were opening on Main St!
Springfield, thanks to SPAR, is a desolate wasteland of vacant lots and empty buildings. This, on the other hand, is the only currently-vacant parcel in the entire Saint Johns strip, which is pretty much this neighborhood's equivalent of North Main Street in your neighborhood. So yes, sorry to call it like I see it, but we can pick and choose. If I lived in Springfield (which I will never consider as long as SPAR remains open) then yes, I'd be happy to see anything at all open there. Unless you just happen to like staring at empty buildings? I know SPAR doesn't...they had them all demolished.
We have fortunately moved beyond the days of the cookie-cutter convenience store design. The shells of long-closed convenience stores are very recognizable in our area. I even ran across what appears to be a former convenience store in Ortega Village. Those kind of buildings are difficult to 'repurpose' because their design still screams, "Look at me, I am a former convenience store!" IMHO, while these buildings adapt to new functions, it still has an underlying tackiness to it. By designing new convenience stores that are sensitive to the context of their environs, we are not just creating a visually appealing convenience store - we are also being sensitive to the long-term culture of the community.
Can you imagine the CF that would be if there were pumps at that location?
It's already tough to navigate the AP at 6:00 in the afternoon - and it's sidestreet isn't that busy.
There's still a Shell on St. John's but it's been moved up to 17. There's also a Kangaroo @ McDuff & 17. The BP across the street at Stockton & I-10.
BTW, if you're driving, what's the big deal if the gas station is 2 blocks away or 2 miles away? Not being snarky, just wondering. I'm not that loyal to any specific brand of gasoline, but I have several stations where I gas up, typically passing several others along the way.
Please say NO to a 7-Eleven at that location. The single biggest impact would be negative: LOTS MORE TRAFFIC
AT THAT INTERSECTION FOR PEOPLE SPENDING $1.25 FOR A SNICKERS. AT ALL COSTS I WOULD STRIVE TO BRING IN A UNIQUE VENDOR WHO WOULD BRING IN FOLKS TO SPEND AN HOUR OR MORE STROLLING THE SHOPPES, NOT BUYING SNICKERS AND THEN LEAVING. THE PUPOSE OF" THE SHOPPES OF AVONDALE" IS TO PROVIDE A BUBBLE OF ECONOMIC ACTIVITY IN THE CENTER OF A PEACEFUL NEIGHBO0RHOOD. WHATEVER GOES IN THERE NEEDS TO BE HELD TO A HIGH STANDARD. DESIGN AND BUILD SHOULD BE EQUAL TO TOWN/EMLY BENHAM. REMEMBER ONCE A 7-11 GOES IN THERE YOU MAY NEVER GET IT OUT. AND A PREVIOUS POSTER NOTED THERE ARE 3 CONVENIENCE STORER VERY CLOSE BY.
Quote from: ubben on July 25, 2011, 10:37:42 AMIf this were done exceptionally well--a new building in the character of the area, no parking lot, no gas-- maybe.... But when is the last time you saw one done well in the state of Florida? When I drive by convenience stores in the area (Springfield, Park/Oak Street in Avondale or Riverside), they seem to be dedicated magnets for dealers, street walkers and late night booze hounds. No matter how nice the signage is, this will not bode well for the neighborhood. Again, we can do better. I hope RAP steps up.
Those buildings that most convenience stores are in were built long before there was design review in the district. The majority of those buildings wouldn't fly today, so it's kind of an apples and orages example IMO.
You mentioned RAP - at this point, RAP is not taking a stance, as we are currently soliciting feedback from the neighborhood. With that said, if this does come to fruition, I have no doubt that RAP will definitely ensure that the building is built in full compliance with the design regulations outlined by the historic district and the restrictions in the zoning overlay. In particular, it will be built up to the street, and will definitely have appropriate signage. Look at the one in Boston as an example.
You mentioned that you've seen very few built well in Florida. I would argue that this is a result of the community not making 7-Eleven build to design regulations. If you force an urban, historic friendly layout, you might be pleasantly surprised at what you get.
Now, my personal opinion is that I don't mind it per se, as it will have to be a design that compliments the area. With that said, in terms of "highest and best use" for a prominent corner lot, I would say that there could be better things.
All of this is a bit of a moot point if the building complies, as the zoning allows this use.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on July 25, 2011, 11:48:01 AM
Can you imagine the CF that would be if there were pumps at that location?
It's already tough to navigate the AP at 6:00 in the afternoon - and it's sidestreet isn't that busy.
There's still a Shell on St. John's but it's been moved up to 17. There's also a Kangaroo @ McDuff & 17. The BP across the street at Stockton & I-10.
BTW, if you're driving, what's the big deal if the gas station is 2 blocks away or 2 miles away? Not being snarky, just wondering. I'm not that loyal to any specific brand of gasoline, but I have several stations where I gas up, typically passing several others along the way.
That is the crux of our car-centric culture. Folks want to have all of the amenities within a decent distance from their homes... The definition of 'decent'? It depends on their laziness...
My stance on this is that I'm totally open for a 'convenience' store. Not a gas station. And definitely something that would fit on the strip - I'm sure it would have something unique - other than Slurpees.
Stop thinking this....
(http://pics.uglychristmaslights.com/2004/7-11.jpg)
and start trying to imagine this....
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1395926387_F6w2wVQ-M.jpg)
Quote from: MusicMan on July 25, 2011, 12:19:33 PM
AT ALL COSTS I WOULD STRIVE TO BRING IN A UNIQUE VENDOR WHO WOULD BRING IN FOLKS TO SPEND AN HOUR OR MORE STROLLING THE SHOPPES, NOT BUYING SNICKERS AND THEN LEAVING. THE PUPOSE OF" THE SHOPPES OF AVONDALE" IS TO PROVIDE A BUBBLE OF ECONOMIC ACTIVITY IN THE CENTER OF A PEACEFUL NEIGHBO0RHOOD. WHATEVER GOES IN THERE NEEDS TO BE HELD TO A HIGH STANDARD.
The parking lot that the site is now doesn't exactly add to the "bubble of economic activity". People aren't beating down the door to build something there.
And Gate is ok with this? ;)
Quote from: cline on July 25, 2011, 12:56:16 PM
Quote from: MusicMan on July 25, 2011, 12:19:33 PM
AT ALL COSTS I WOULD STRIVE TO BRING IN A UNIQUE VENDOR WHO WOULD BRING IN FOLKS TO SPEND AN HOUR OR MORE STROLLING THE SHOPPES, NOT BUYING SNICKERS AND THEN LEAVING. THE PUPOSE OF" THE SHOPPES OF AVONDALE" IS TO PROVIDE A BUBBLE OF ECONOMIC ACTIVITY IN THE CENTER OF A PEACEFUL NEIGHBO0RHOOD. WHATEVER GOES IN THERE NEEDS TO BE HELD TO A HIGH STANDARD.
The parking lot that the site is now doesn't exactly add to the "bubble of economic activity". People aren't beating down the door to build something there.
Ditto. If I were to choose between a visually appealing 7-Eleven and a blighted vacant building, I would choose the former every time.
The "Shell" business could reopen as an auto repair service station on short notice, WITH the same amenities as a 7-11, so, what is preferred? The current Shell station 'building' OR a high-end designed 7-11? Those who bemoan about a 7-11 increasing traffic must be home-bound. The Shell property already has on-site parking space for 14-17 cars. Does anyone really imagine a 7-11 "drawing" a caravan of cars? Where were you when Mojo's opened with 150 seating capacity and NO additional on-street parking? I see an upscale 7-11 as a fine addition to the Shoppes of Avondale, without negatively impacting the existing businesses.
As for those people who belong to the Slurpee and Snickers crowd, they would not be taking up a whole lot of parking as their turnover would be relatively high...
my god?!?! his first post was...... Logical!
What next, some dude from the westside making sense..... nah, probably not.
Quote from: Jaxson on July 25, 2011, 01:54:40 PM
As for those people who belong to the Slurpee and Snickers crowd, they would not be taking up a whole lot of parking as their turnover would be relatively high...
And no better way to justify a slurpee or a snicker by walking a few blocks to get it. ;)
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on July 25, 2011, 01:56:20 PM
Quote from: Jaxson on July 25, 2011, 01:54:40 PM
As for those people who belong to the Slurpee and Snickers crowd, they would not be taking up a whole lot of parking as their turnover would be relatively high...
And no better way to justify a slurpee or a snicker by walking a few blocks to get it. ;)
LOL! I agree. I wish that I lived in a more walkable area. I used to live near the Willowbranch Library and rode my bike all over the area. I see, however, that there are many more people who are indeed married to their cars for better or for worse!
To be honest, the major market for the store is probably the employees and visitors of the surrounding retail and dining establishments. So most of the traffic generated will be on foot, which was the goal of all those sidewalk and pedestrian amenities recently completed along the strip.
We intuitively trust in the familiar Neighborhood Doctrine of assumed Specialty,protective measures,outlook and response.
Perhaps the Ideal too high,too many sensitive residents harboring illusions in a world where "too many" are not enough to affect outcome and the nudge of tiny steps on the slip slope.What is Progress to some is a collective middle finger to the neighborhood with others.
Such obviously predictable emerging scenario was a discussion among Candidates at the RAP sponsored Candidate Forum during the last campaign cycle.It will be interesting to watch our new Councilman and other elements.
The headline could read 'Was Avondale Made Ready For a 7 - Eleven?'
My wife and I actually often fondly recall many of the 'Convenience' stores we experienced in certain other parts of the Nation.
I say Go For It Avondale.See what we end up with.If it goes not so Idyllic,better to lose an illusion.
It isn't as if anyone is jailed in Avondale and has to stay locked in!
And, of course, there is ample parking on the side-streets that surround the shoppes. If I can't park in front of the Brick or YoBe or Vanity Furs, I can always walk a couple of blocks from the north or south.
I've been back-and-forth on this. I've decided I like it for the neighborhood if the building is context-sensitive. I have no illusions that it will be multi-story or mixed use. I expect a single-story structure that adheres to the overlay. If it's more, all the better.
As a kid I used to ride my bike up to that gas station to get air in my tires. I think it would be nice to have a place where kids can walk or ride their bikes to and get soda or candy. An additional high end store or restaurant doesn't really serve that market.
I really like the Shoppes of Avondale. I wish it was all along St. Johns Ave. If there is a 7-Eleven put there, it should be urban and look appropriate for the neighborhood.
Those "context-sensative design" photos above lead one to believe that's what we would get in Avondale, but I seriously doubt it, so I'm not in favor. We have no need for another convenience store in the neighborhood.
^^^ how about waiting for the design ideas before condemning?
Unless they plan to rezone the site (which wouldn't make much sense financially), the project is going to have to conform to the Riverside/Avondale Zoning Overlay. Its currently zoned CCG-1, so if a new building is constructed, here are some general site development guidelines that will have to be incorporated:
Design Standards: commercial design standards must be met for the building's massing, height, setbacks, parking and landscaping.
Height: can't exceed 45'
Front setback: Min. 0'; Max. 15'. This means it is not possible to put parking in front. With a max of 15', all that will allow the owner to do is put a nice outdoor seating or landscaped area between the building and sidewalk.
Off-Street Parking: If they're going to have any parking, it will basically have to be in the rear. According to the overlay, doing so will allow them to get more utilization out of the site.
you can read the overlay in detail here: http://www.riversideavondale.org/index.php?id=57
What if they just want to use the.existing.structure?
Quote from: JeffreyS on July 25, 2011, 04:58:05 PM
What if they just want to use the.existing.structure?
They could probably do that today, but not 100% sure.
People keep mentioning the other convenience stores in the area. All of which are fairly sketchy, if this had an urban, more upscale flare to it, like the inside of the gate station on san jose in mandarin, I could definitely see it adding to the surroundings. I will say Murray Hill dropped the ball when some one let that hideous beast of a store be built on Edgewood. But I think the zoning and the community would keep something like that from happening.
I don't think the people of Avondale will ever be happy. They bitched about Mojos which I can't understand, then they are complaining about this. I saw someone suggested an uber-upscale convenience store that sold live lobster like one they went to in NY. I think some people needs a reality check, if that was going to make money it would probably already be there.
Wait until the Sushi place gets to building out. (Opening across from 'Town)
That should divert the attention from 7-11
Too bad we can't ban them from posting beer ads all over the front...keep it clean and in putting with the neighborhood is don't see why it couldn't work...
@ Garden guy - are you referring to the old banner ads that used to be plastered across the front of the 7-Eleven stores? I do not think that a new design even has to integrate that feature anymore, does it?
Quote from: Steve on July 25, 2011, 05:11:05 PM
Quote from: JeffreyS on July 25, 2011, 04:58:05 PM
What if they just want to use the.existing.structure?
They could probably do that today, but not 100% sure.
Would rather see existing building location rather than a building looming right up on the street,which would alter the.....ahem.....,.open space feeling we have "seen" for all these years.
Someone has posted here that building frontage right up to the sidewalk would allow for parking in the rear.But why is parking on the parcel important when in fact we assume plenty of parking in front of front yards around the corner.As many parking spots as needed!.
Too bad Avondale Merchants,others have not managed to purchase the property for a parking facility.Last I checked,the ask was over a million.
What else could possible end there?
How about a mini park,on order of that across the street from the Florida Theatre.Emphasis on seating,mingling.
Overlay public vision lodged strong support for a Park on Fishweir at The Loop location.Any thoughts on a park at this site??
good point, north miami, about the parking issue. i recently drove to avondale for brunch with a friend a blue fish. because my friend was handicapped, we did not have many options for parking as all of the spaces were taken on the strip and on the adjacent side streets. we ended up going to orsay instead. we would have preferred blue fish, but those were the cards we were dealt on that busy sunday morning.
QuoteYou can view the comment at the following url
http://jacksonville.com/business/2011-07-25/story/possibility-convenience-store-has-avondale-buzzing#comment-444315
---Text of the comment---
I agree. Move the Dollhouse there, or threaten to. Then the snobs will be
happy with a 7-11.
Source: The Florida Times-Union (btw, it wasn't me!)
LOL ;D
Quote from: undergroundgourmet on July 25, 2011, 06:00:56 PM
Wait until the Sushi place gets to building out. (Opening across from 'Town)
That should divert the attention from 7-11
ANOTHER sushi place? Seriously?
@ ChrisUfGator --- Ditto on that one. How many sushi places do we really need? Are there not other cuisines that are not on the verge of saturating our community?
According to my research, the site is for sale for $1.3M and includes a 2,046 SF structure built in 1964 and 0.29 AC. Taxes are estimated to be $2.44/SF, which is average for the Shoppes (which range from $1.71/SF to $4.15/SF). The site is for sale by owner.
Translated, the price per square foot is $635.39. That is a little more than insane for something that will be demolished. Price per acre of land is almost $4.5M, which is only possible in Jacksonville on this site and still seems ridiculously high. I would imagine rents in the area are roughly $20-25/Sf and recoverables are probably around $4-5/SF. Management fees are probably 3% of EGI or something similar. Those rents and recoverables are not high enough to justify that price, and frankly those rents are a reflection on the sales of the area, which are higher than average for Jacksonville but still far below what most consider a high sales number. Rents in big city shopping streets can go to $5,000/SF +, a reflection of the sales (the Apple store in Midtown Manhattan has sales per square foot of nearly $40,000, and it is a 10,000 SF store). $4.5M per acre is closer to big city land pricing than the pricing we should see in Jacksonville. If Jacksonville were a $4.5M an acre city, anywhere, then my father would have retired long ago (and he is still busting ass).
Even if revenue forecasts were for $600+/SF with no debt service and a nice little 3,000 SF store, why pay $1.3M for that thing?
I would try to see what salons and dry cleaners have leases coming up for renewal and add a second floor to the new development for space for dry cleaners, a salon, and perhaps a fast food joint open late for bar patrons. 45 ft height limit and a 12,500+ SF footprint are plenty to put in more space for income generation. There is a lot that could be done with the site. Parking should be excluded. The price needs to come way down, even for that area.
I would personally rather see someone ambitious from the neighborhood with clout and banking relationships develop the sight and include a franchise 7-11 rather than 7-11 build some stand-alone on the site with parking in the rear. This individual could corellate this new development with the development of 3 floor apartment buildings a block down on St. Johns Ave. This could spur more development for the area and provide more demand for walk up dry-cleaning and convenience stores and walk-up 24 hour dining establishments.
For the love of God why aren't there any 24-hour dining establishments in the entire city except for Waffle House and Whataburger? Whenever I come into town, like last weekend, I usually arrive late and after midnight the only option for me is Krystals...yuck! I guess it would help to have people out and about past 9:00 p.m., but late night districts should start with areas like the Shoppes. And Metro Diner should not be allowed to have "Diner" in its name if it is not even open for 50% of the hours in any given week.
http://www.evos.com/
Evos Fast Food. Put something new and fresh for Jacksonville in there. Or something open 24/7.
Simms, Your review of current asking price relative to viable value,revenue generation is outstanding.
No wonder the property is for sale by owner-professional realtors have opted out of engaging with an unrealistic seller,dead end listing and promotion efforts.
And no wonder no buyer or concrete development plans have materialized.
makes one wonder as to seller expectations..............is there a mortgage on the property,with sellers unwilling/unable to negative equity???? worth asking
As to the assumption that one should seek dry cleaners,salons with leases to soon expire,what is to happen with those current rental properties when the tenants flee to the Avondale Nirvana??Such ideas are well meaning but not so perfectly thought out.
On another matter,one I may have been on top of at one time (getting bored with this stuff!!),are we to assume the Overlay allows for two story structure?
Perhaps a clear understanding of future growth envisioned in the Citizen's Overlay is in order,a savvy companion effort.
RAP voiced concerns over the accepted Overlay,yet likely quite correctly agreed in the spirit of compromise.
But what were the concerns? So much unknown,and who here can cite Overlay rule??
Quote from: acme54321 on July 25, 2011, 05:40:55 PM
I don't think the people of Avondale will ever be happy.
the same could be said about many posters in this thread
Lake said the overlay specified a 45 ft height limit. That would even allow for a 3 floor building.
Also, I realize that "taking" mom and pop tenants and a salon from other rental property is not very altruistic on the surface, but if I were in charge of the development of that site and could lure other tenants in the area with terms expiring in the following 12-24 months, you can bet your bottom dollar that's who I would pursue because there is not an overwhelming demand for new tenants to come in (not enough of a demand to create a wide enough pricing gap). The new tenants that have entered the submarket are backfilling vacant space. Turnover has increased and renewals are not appearing to be happening as much as in years past.
The ability for tenants to change locations keeps commercial properties on their toes and keeps the area competitive. It's actually a good thing for tenants themselves if there is landlord competition, and is a good thing for the neighborhood itself because landlords would have to keep their buildings in competitive condition, not just from a pricing standpoint.
If everyone somehow colluded on keeping the status quo and letting certain landlords get certain tenants or uses, nothing would ever progress.
I would rather see something else on the corner, but if done well, I guess a 7-11 would be ok. In the early 90's there was a convenience store next to Underwood. I don't remember when it closed.
Quote from: tufsu1 on July 25, 2011, 09:49:59 PM
Quote from: acme54321 on July 25, 2011, 05:40:55 PM
I don't think the people of Avondale will ever be happy.
the same could be said about many posters in this thread
Yea,such quips are in fact intertwined in growth politics.
It is in fact because the area is so different.The cost of defending the neighborhood in the face of one onslaught after another,which in fact has been the cause and case for decades,the reason the area is what is is,and not what it could have been.
and now new awareness-actually something long suspected-living in Avondale could prove an often unhappy experience.
My contribution on RAP's facebook:
QuoteI wholeheartedly welcome 7-11's interest in the neighborhood with open arms. To be truly considered a great neighborhood, it is our duty to work with a small business who has the ability to fully activate the street on an abandoned and blighted surface lot. An urban walk up 7-11 store that is contextually sensitive to the unique fabric of the neighborhood will only enhance the pedestrian experience which makes the commercial corridors of the district some of the most desirable in the city.
Currently, there are a total of 14 convenience stores within the district. Clearly there is a market for such a business. In fact, one of those 14 stores was once a 7-11. Unfortunately, this now independent store does not contribute to the architectural uniqueness of the surrounding neighborhood and has become the anti-thesis of what a modern, clean 7-11 offers. This is where a unique opportunity exists.
The overlay allows for a maximum 15' front setback. Why not work with the developer to design pedestrian friendly features like this particular urban walk up 7-11-branded cafe?
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/269/5493799343b504ec24b3b.jpg/
A truly great neighborhood does not turn its back on a contributing small business. A truly great neighborhood forges partnerships such as the one this business is trying to strike with its future neighbors. Isn't it time we step up and do what is right?
I'd love to see a nice simple grocery there..it's needed i think.
Just one opinion to the well thought out posts -
A truly great neighborhood does not turn its back on a contributing small business. A truly great neighborhood forges partnerships such as the one this business is trying to strike with its future neighbors.
A locally owned and named small convenience store would be preferable, but given the lot and price, this is the most viable option within the foreseeable future. As noted, their desire to strike a partnership with the neighbors (via their seeming local input requests) makes them the next best thing.
In the early 90's there was a convenience store next to Underwood.
As a kid I used to ride my bike up to that gas station to get air in my tires. I think it would be nice to have a place where kids can walk or ride their bikes to and get soda or candy.
Back in the day, it was a rite of passage to be old enough to cross St. John’s on our own to get tire air then visit the Lil’ Champ (now Prudential Realty) to spend our allowance on candy and Donkey Kong.
I've decided I like it for the neighborhood if the building is context-sensitive. I have no illusions that it will be multi-story or mixed use. I expect a single-story structure that adheres to the overlay.
In my limited experience, this is where it gets tricky because of the parking. The Overlay states in Sec. 656.399.22. Commercial Character Area Design Standards
1 - Parking Location. Parking is encouraged to be located at the rear of the primary structure.
2 - Parking Requirements.
- …zero (0) parking shall be required of new structures when such structures are built to the same or less than the square footage of a non-conforming structure if that structure is being replaced. However, all adjacent on-street parking shall be brought into compliance with Section 656.399.23(2)(b)(i-iv) and Table 4. Otherwise, the number of spaces for retail sales and service establishments and multi-family uses shall be 50% of the required number of spaces pursuant to Section 656.604…. However contiguous on-street parking may be provided consistent with Section 656.399.23(2)(b)(i-iv) and Table 4.
Per the Duval property appraiser’s office, the current structure is 2,689 square feet. The lot is 0.28 acres or 12,632 square feet. Replacing the structure with a similar or smaller sized structure to trigger the 0 space requirement would underutilize the lot. 656.604 states that all parking spaces must be off street. Under certain circumstances, the Planning Department and RAP have agreed to allow on-street contiguous spaces to satisfy that requirement, especially in more urban or commercial areas. Given this location is in the boundaries of the Historic District and surrounded by a residential district, a sensitively balanced compromise seems necessary.
That said, I don’t have CAD, nor am I any expert, but
o With a new commercial building, 1 space would be required for every 600 square feet of gross floor area (usually 1 per 300, but reduced by 50% per the Overlay)
o A two story 13,200 square foot building would require 22 spaces, leaving 6,032 sq ft for parking.
o A double-sided rear configured lot would require 4,950 sq feet. 9 foot wide spaces x 11=99 feet (the lot is 100 feet wide). Spaces must be 19 feet in length + 12 foot travel lane + 19 feet spaces on the other side = 50 feet. 99x50=4,950 sq feet.
o The last hurdle is â€" can the extra sq feet (based on my layman’s numbers) 1,032 be used in a creative way to satisfy 656.399.23(2)(b)(i-iv) which requires 1 canopy tree for every 3 new spaces?
To be honest, the major market for the store is probably the employees and visitors of the surrounding retail and dining establishments. So most of the traffic generated will be on foot, which was the goal of all those sidewalk and pedestrian amenities recently completed along the strip.
Totally agree. All the “undesirables†this establishment is pre-maturely accused of bringing to the neighborhood will likely pass by the other outlying convenience stores mentioned before reaching the Shoppes of Avondale and, I suspect, stop there for their 40’s, cigarettes and hot dogs. It seems more likely this store will see more walk up, neighborhood traffic.
You mentioned RAP - at this point, RAP is not taking a stance, as we are currently soliciting feedback from the neighborhood. With that said, if this does come to fruition, I have no doubt that RAP will definitely ensure that the building is built in full compliance with the design regulations outlined by the historic district and the restrictions in the zoning overlay. In particular, it will be built up to the street, and will definitely have appropriate signage. Look at the one in Boston as an example.
RAP’s openness to hear all the affected neighbor’s opinions first and make decisions later is a great example of fair representation. No doubt they will represent their members (constituents) appropriately. Additionally, compliance with the Zoning code and Overlay are appropriate and indicative of their existence â€" thought out law, not individually or emotionally applied.
Anyone see the news story on Channel 4 last night about this? It was kind of funny, the reporter was saying how none of the business owners within the district wanted to go on camera saying they oppose the store. They did ask plenty passerbys and most of them were against it.
http://www.news4jax.com/news/28663729/detail.html
As a property owner of several buildings in Avondale I am all for the 7/11.. It is needed..
I wonder if some of the protesting merchants are doing so because they would lose some parking spots.
I think it is a GREAT use of the space..
Dennis
It seems to me that no matter how upscale a neighborhood is, that a little downscale diversity like this helps traffic and a feeling of energy in the area, and it's not like there are "Biscotti's type people" and "7 eleven type people", the same folks who go out for a nice dinner on Saturday night, also might need a newspaper and a candy bar for the kids Sunday morning or a fountain drink to sip on during their commute to work in Southpoint Monday morning. I think the key would be doing the architecture right to fit in with the neighborhood....which already has a Prudential Reality that was a Jiffy Store and the site was formerly a shell station. Eh...
QuoteA locally owned and named small convenience store would be preferable, but given the lot and price, this is the most viable option within the foreseeable future. As noted, their desire to strike a partnership with the neighbors (via their seeming local input requests) makes them the next best thing.
The problem with that is what you see with the convenience store at Herschel/St Johns. That was a 7-11(I mowed many lawns to fund their slurpee machine, and they used to sell Topps, Fleer and Upper Deck baseball card packs) before Gate bought it. Then Gate left to open the suburban style store on Stockton. Without having to adhere to the rigorous coporate standards of a 7-11, the store is now in disrepair.
I think there is a market for a clean, well run and context sensitive neighborhood. If 14 (only two of which are nicely kept and cater to something other than loosies and singles) can exist in the neighborhood... why can't a well designed, context-sensitive walk up urban store that you see in many thriving urban neighborhoods (there is one in Lakeview and Wicker Park in Chicago I just visited that I really wish I would have taken a picture of now) that offers a pallatable product mix be successful? Hey, 7-11 has cheap wine comparable to Two Buck Chuck sold at Trader Joes. I think this store can be a real success.
QuoteBack in the day, it was a rite of passage to be old enough to cross St. John’s on our own to get tire air then visit the Lil’ Champ (now Prudential Realty) to spend our allowance on candy and Donkey Kong.
Haha, I had high score on that Donkey Kong for many months one summer. It was by far one of the highlights of my youth. BTW, Lil Champ had the best donuts... the one with the little boxer champ on the label. It's amazing how much sugar a kid can consume and not go blind.
Quotebut given the lot and price
I totally agree. There is an economic reality that is staring a developer in the face when looking to acquire that parcel given the size and price of that lot.
QuoteThe last hurdle is â€" can the extra sq feet (based on my layman’s numbers) 1,032 be used in a creative way to satisfy 656.399.23(2)(b)(i-iv) which requires 1 canopy tree for every 3 new spaces?
I totally think so. Check out the link to the picture I posted. I walked the site Saturday and can totally see how an oak tree a few parking spots and pedestrian-activating features like an outdoor cafe area can fit... given the space requirements that 7-11 needs for an urban walk up store design.
Bear in mind this is using my ultra sophisticated eyeballs and size 13 feet to make measurements... but I'm actually quite good at site layout in my head :)
There already is a nice live oak tree on the corner of this lot across from the Brick. But I'm sure a developer can screw that up and find a way to chop it down. In fact, they should consult JEA or the Chew Restaurant people who chopped down that huge old oak tree on the corner of their lot in Five Points. I mean, the people of Riverside and Avondale really, really hate beautiful old oak trees. Kill them all! There used to a be a nice long row of live oaks on that side of St. Johns Avenue. Now only five remain.
PS: Lets stop using the picture of the quaint brick Boston 7-11. This architecture is not what we are going to get. Using that picture makes it seem ok. We all know damn well it'll be a crap stucco one-story building like you'd see in a mini mall in Daytona. Throw a little clay tiles on the roof and 'poof' it's Avondalefied! Ugh.
Quote from: ubben on July 26, 2011, 09:38:15 AM
There already is a nice live oak tree on the corner of this lot across from the Brick. But I'm sure a developer can screw that up and find a way to chop it down. In fact, they should consult JEA or the Chew Restaurant people who chopped down that huge old oak tree on the corner of their lot in Five Points. I mean, the people of Riverside and Avondale really, really hate beautiful old oak trees. Kill them all! There used to a be a nice long row of live oaks on that side of St. Johns Avenue. Now only five remain.
PS: Lets stop using the picture of the quaint brick Boston 7-11. This architecture is not what we are going to get. Using that picture makes it seem ok. We all know damn well it'll be a crap stucco one-story building like you'd see in a mini mall in Daytona. Throw a little clay tiles on the roof and 'poof' it's Avondalefied! Ugh.
It really is amazing how much self-perpetuating cynicism this town creates for itself. If we all redirected just a 1/10th of that energy into something constructive and make positive things happen... it would be amazing what we could accomplish.
(http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/3812/5493799343b504ec24b3b.jpg)
Quote from: ubben on July 26, 2011, 09:38:15 AM
PS: Lets stop using the picture of the quaint brick Boston 7-11. This architecture is not what we are going to get. Using that picture makes it seem ok. We all know damn well it'll be a crap stucco one-story building like you'd see in a mini mall in Daytona. Throw a little clay tiles on the roof and 'poof' it's Avondalefied! Ugh.
and I'll refer you a couple of posts back....
Quote from: JaxNative68 on July 25, 2011, 04:03:06 PM
^^^ how about waiting for the design ideas before condemning?
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on July 26, 2011, 10:35:38 AM
Quote from: ubben on July 26, 2011, 09:38:15 AM
PS: Lets stop using the picture of the quaint brick Boston 7-11. This architecture is not what we are going to get. Using that picture makes it seem ok. We all know damn well it'll be a crap stucco one-story building like you'd see in a mini mall in Daytona. Throw a little clay tiles on the roof and 'poof' it's Avondalefied! Ugh.
and I'll refer you a couple of posts back....
Quote from: JaxNative68 on July 25, 2011, 04:03:06 PM
^^^ how about waiting for the design ideas before condemning?
Well played, Non-Redneck Westsider!
Quote from: ubben on July 26, 2011, 09:38:15 AM
PS: Lets stop using the picture of the quaint brick Boston 7-11. This architecture is not what we are going to get. Using that picture makes it seem ok. We all know damn well it'll be a crap stucco one-story building like you'd see in a mini mall in Daytona. Throw a little clay tiles on the roof and 'poof' it's Avondalefied! Ugh.
Wow you must have the inside scoop. None of the rest of us have seen the rendering :-\ Seriously, chill out. 7-eleven is seeking input because they have the same concern that the resident do.
P.S. Avondale is far from Beverly Hills or Rodeo Dr. When did Jax become so grand?
At what point does 7-11 say "Whoa! This is a lot of pushback and discussion over a convenience store! Nevermind, you guys! Sorry we asked!"
News4Jax front page story, for example: "Store Owners Fight Against Jax 7-Eleven" Here's a quote: "Members of the Avondale community are making their voices heard on Facebook, too. Avondale residents have started a page called "Avondale Says NO! To Convenience Stores!" The page was set up by a store in the center of Avondale called Cowford Traders."
In the shadow of Baltimore's monument to George Washington is a 7-Eleven. Mount Vernon is a nice place and would give Avondale a run for its money. Check out Mount Vernon on the Internet --- http://www.mvcd.org/.
I am surprised by how the Times-Union message board folks are chiming in on the proposed Avondale 7-Eleven issue... Here is another comment that I read...
QuoteHi Jaxson,
jokerZwild has commented on: "7-Eleven considers development in Avondale"
You can view the comment at the following url
http://jacksonville.com/business/2011-07-25/story/7-eleven-considers-development-avondale#comment-444655
---Text of the comment---
My concern is we have a vibrant neighborhood, a local shopping area that has
a certain family appeal, said Deb Fewell , owner of Cowford Traders in
Avondale and the person behind the “Avondale says no†page. We just want
to make sure that whoever comes into the neighborhood fits into what we
already have.
*********************************
Which is slang for no minorities, no poor people, no undesirables and anyone
else who might not fit into what THEY think the neighborhood should be like.
----
You can stop receiving emails when someone replies to this post,
by going to http://jacksonville.com/comment_notify/disable/1a10a8330cae4740e9e0535871ba71b0
Source: The Florida Times-Union
We can go back and forth over the perceived advantages or disadvantages of having a chain convenience store in the Shoppes but the bottom line is that right now all we have there is a dirt lot with an abandoned building. That's all we've had for years now due to many reason (some of which have been discussed on this thread at length i.e. asking price to high). Is a dirt lot really the type of land use that we want right now? As much as we would all like to see some 3 story mixed use development built there--ain't going to happen. Say what you want about 7-11, but the fact is that they have come forward with this idea to put one of their stores on this spot. That's more than many have done. They have money, they've proven that they can build context-sensitive buildings and, most importantly, they are making an effort to reach out to the community to gain feedback about whether or not this is something the neighborhood would even want. Let's wait and see what the design looks like before we throw stones. It sounds like they are going to give us residents plenty of opportunity to offer our opinions and contribute to this meaningful discussion.
Jacksonville: Where Florida Begins and Where That Small Town Mindset Flourishes
I found this letter that 7-Eleven submitted to a community they planned to open a store in: http://www.woodstockpdx.org/pdf/GoodNeighborPlan121410.pdf (http://www.woodstockpdx.org/pdf/GoodNeighborPlan121410.pdf)
It looks like they strive to be a decent neighbor and try to fit in with the established area. Hope the community will let up a little and work with 7-Eleven versus convincing them to stay away. As appealing as an abandoned building is....
I think 7-Eleven would be wise to have a rendering of what they are thinking in order to get public input. I know my opinion would vary widely based on the context of the building and how it interacted with the surroundings.
Traditionally, 7-Eleven stores looked like...
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ei2Ik5quiI0/R1L5t10WVyI/AAAAAAAAAfo/AuXGRF5U0NA/s1600-R/7-11.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ei2Ik5quiI0/R1L5410WV0I/AAAAAAAAAf4/k2IXAq354o4/s400/7-eleven+kids+65.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Ei2Ik5quiI0/R1L5yF0WVzI/AAAAAAAAAfw/soVIWTtLlaI/s400/7-eleven+int+64.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ei2Ik5quiI0/R05Lx0XaS9I/AAAAAAAAAe8/Sn1b6bulNXA/s400/7-eleven+64.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ei2Ik5quiI0/R0ynI0XaS1I/AAAAAAAAAd8/JmDKTmI731Y/s400/7-eleven+64+night.jpg)
But, even then, they opened locations with local geography and context in mind...
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ei2Ik5quiI0/R1Yj110WV4I/AAAAAAAAAgY/-ngtYhWnDYk/s400/7-eleven+67b.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ei2Ik5quiI0/R1Yjt10WV3I/AAAAAAAAAgQ/YeRIEcRlIKU/s400/7-eleven+67c.jpg)
But, of course, we have to be more sensitive than just slapping on a different roof to make it Florida-friendly. Take a look at 7-Eleven in Bergen, Norway...
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/05/7_eleven_Bergen_Nygardsgaten.JPG/220px-7_eleven_Bergen_Nygardsgaten.JPG)
or Copenhagen, Demark...
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/7-Eleven_Copenhagen.jpg)
How very Continental! If those rednecks across the pond can tolerate a convenience store among their ancient and storied buildings, we could survive having one in A-vahn-duh-lay! ;D
FUN FACT: According to Pleasant Family Shopping's blog, the first 7-Eleven locations outside of Texas were opened in Jacksonville and Miami in 1954.
Source: http://pleasantfamilyshopping.blogspot.com/
Quote from: JeffreyS on July 26, 2011, 12:08:14 PM
I think 7-Eleven would be wise to have a rendering of what they are thinking in order to get public input. I know my opinion would vary widely based on the context of the building and how it interacted with the surroundings.
I agree. I am somewhere between extremely opposed to this and perfectly fine with it, but it all depends on the design and layout of the site.
Quote from: Bativac on July 26, 2011, 12:06:15 PM
Jacksonville: Where Florida Begins and Where That Small Town Mindset Flourishes
This should definately be our slogan. This is why people call us country. Someone made a statement that I tend to agree with about Jacksonville. There is nothing wrong with our southern charm. However, we are country and small minded. This is a HUGE henderence to this city. Let's be OPEN MINDED for a change. We want everything for Jacksonville, but shoot down everything that is proposed. UGH!!
Does anyone remember the Magic Marts that used to be in the area in the early 70's? If I remember correctly they had a psuedo milton glaser double M logo in blue and green.
Interesting fact: The old Mexican Cantina is also for sale (3644 St Johns). This offers a larger building, at 4700 sq feet, a complete commercial kitchen, a full bar plus a package store. Also on a corner. Did 7-Eleven look there? The asking price is $1.9 million, which seems a better deal by far. They could use the existing structure and sell off the package store and avoid the costs of new contruction. Seems like a better option all the way around.
"7-Eleven" instills all sorts of images,assumptions.
Apparently news of the Avondale Eleven is out there,some have come to me with devilish self righteous 'so there goes your neighborhood!' ....'Avondale!!??' quips.Some gloat at the prospect of altered state,the 'inevitable' punch through the veil.Curious.
Indeed,one of the first 7-Eleven (as was Burger King) was located in my native childhood 'can do','growing' North Miami ,which has since declined in such a way as to make one very protective,reactive.
But knee jerk reaction to an Avondale location is probably not fair.
Had the proposal been described as local grocery,elevations,artist rendition clearly available the response may have been different.
Personally I feel the Citizen's Overlay accommodation of up two or more floors on the property is the most provocative revelation.Classic in how this works.
We could rename,reposition the Shoppes of Avondale to Downtown Avondale.
Slurpies,candy bars,donuts..........what would the goods offered look like in an Avondale style convenience store??
"Our tastes often improve at the expense of our happiness"- Jules Renard
Quote from: Bativac on July 26, 2011, 11:34:21 AM
At what point does 7-11 say "Whoa! This is a lot of pushback and discussion over a convenience store! Nevermind, you guys! Sorry we asked!"
News4Jax front page story, for example: "Store Owners Fight Against Jax 7-Eleven" Here's a quote: "Members of the Avondale community are making their voices heard on Facebook, too. Avondale residents have started a page called "Avondale Says NO! To Convenience Stores!" The page was set up by a store in the center of Avondale called Cowford Traders."
If Avondale residents do decide they don't want a 7-Eleven in their neighborhood, I would hope 7-11 would look at Avondale's red headed stepbrother, Riverside. There are some vacant/sketchy spots that could probably benefit from the additional foot traffic 24 hour a day Slurpee access could generate. Maybe the empty Fuel spot in 5 Pts (wasn't that spot a 5 and Dime store originally?) or maybe someplace around the King St district--I'm looking at you Norman's Food Store at Post and King! (Ok, I guess beer is food!) There's also that big empty house over by Riverside Park by Pizza Palace, though that would probably be better suited for some other use.
Quote from: MusicMan on July 26, 2011, 02:44:18 PM
Interesting fact: The old Mexican Cantina is also for sale (3644 St Johns). This offers a larger building, at 4700 sq feet, a complete commercial kitchen, a full bar plus a package store. Also on a corner. Did 7-Eleven look there? The asking price is $1.9 million, which seems a better deal by far. They could use the existing structure and sell off the package store and avoid the costs of new contruction. Seems like a better option all the way around.
A restaurant chain was kicking the tires on Montys earlier in the year. Nothing has come to fruition on that deal and likely won't at this point.
Quite honestly, the old Shell station spot gives them the best opportunity to build a context sensitive urban walk up store the neighborhood would be proud of... and would further activate the street, especially on Sundays and weekday off hours where the strip is mostly void of a lot of foot traffic. This would actually HELP the surrounding businesses.
I can tell you one thing, a particular reatailer on this stip has lost my business over their vocal displeasure of recent commercial interests in that commercial district.(not just the 7-11)
Quote from: MusicMan on July 26, 2011, 02:44:18 PM
Interesting fact: The old Mexican Cantina is also for sale (3644 St Johns). This offers a larger building, at 4700 sq feet, a complete commercial kitchen, a full bar plus a package store. Also on a corner. Did 7-Eleven look there? The asking price is $1.9 million, which seems a better deal by far. They could use the existing structure and sell off the package store and avoid the costs of new contruction. Seems like a better option all the way around.
It's been "unofficially" for sale for the past 5 or 6 years, and officially for sale for the past couple years. But at $2mm, it's probably going to sit on the market until kingdom come, or until their broker gets sick of dealing with it and drops the listing. Not sure who would pay $2mm for a small 4k square foot building with no parking.
I cant believe we ae debating over a store. And another thread debating over a movie theater. Geez, Us duvalians can be quite petty. I wonder citizens in other major cities debate over such silliness. :-\
There's not much of a debate imo. There are a few that just don't want it (i.e. not open for debate) and the rest of us are in a wait-until-I-see-the-design mode and then I'll make a rational decision.
Maybe then we can debate it.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on July 26, 2011, 04:10:50 PM
There's not much of a debate imo. There are a few that just don't want it (i.e. not open for debate) and the rest of us are in a wait-until-I-see-the-design mode and then I'll make a rational decision.
Maybe then we can debate it.
+1000 we can debate over something that does not exsist. Show me a rendering and I'll make a decision as well.
It is interesting that probably ALL of the posts are from folks who have never stepped into a 'newer' 7-11 built by the company which now owns the name. I have been in three, and each one would shame the best designed Starbucks. One postee showed his ignorance by saying that the Avondale 7-11 would be a stucco building. That statement was just d-u-m-b.
The new 7-11s I was in had mom's with kids, some pushing strollers, folks sitting in a neighborhood friendly outdoor-cafe-setting, sipping a latte' and pecking a laptop, and a fairly steady walk-in traffic buying the normal foodstuff, drinks, snacks. The staff were pleasant, polite and gave the impression that each customer was special.
But facts do not seem to matter to many postees...for example, the business owner who almost immediately put up a poo-poo website without knowing diddly. I hear he was also against the 'N Town Bistro, Mojo's, the Town Center project. and his once-best friend. I would bet the farm he is even against his own business.
"Avondalers" should be thankful that the owner(s) of the property have been good neighbors by allowing such things as snow slides, Christmas trees and other friendly acts for all of us to enjoy. Their track record deserves our trust that the property will pass to good hands
Let us all take a breath, let the prospective buyer continue to work with RAP and see what the buyer ultimately proposes in the way of building style, amenities, et al. And feel lucky that the property has not been leased to a "Gentleman's Club", a "Sports Bar", or a pawn shop, all of which can be put there under the CCG1 zoning.
Quote from: duvaldude08 on July 26, 2011, 04:05:37 PM
I cant believe we ae debating over a store. And another thread debating over a movie theater. Geez, Us duvalians can be quite petty. I wonder citizens in other major cities debate over such silliness. :-\
Sure they do.Major small towns,hamlets too.
Quote from: JaxNative68 on July 26, 2011, 02:34:07 PM
Does anyone remember the Magic Marts that used to be in the area in the early 70's? If I remember correctly they had a psuedo milton glaser double M logo in blue and green.
I do!
I just drove past the remnants of an old seven-eleven on lonestar road near mill creek. The big vertical wedge element for signage was still there (seen in Jaxson's first four pictures), but was painted all white.
Heard that the owners (a family) consist of one guy who wants to sell and a whole array of family members committed to the $1.3M list price (basically means they don't really want to sell). There is a brokerage(s) in town who did not take the listing for that reason (hence the thing is for sale by owner). Basically, these aren't serious sellers. As I said, their price basically equates to $4.8M an acre, which is unrealistic even for many larger cities.
They may in fact view themselves as sellers,going through all the motions.Their expectations are simply unrealistic.Why?
On what information,assumptions do the owners draw the asking price from??
The fact that professional realtors have refrained from going through the motions is telling.
the property has been offered since the height of the bubble expectation.
As I have posted here previously,could the owners be upside down,property mortgaged and unwilling,or unable to negative equity??A simple property record search might reveal insight.
And now,how about a PET SHOP??
I have been reminded that the building two over,now sporting "Prudential" was in fact at one time a Convenience Store.......Yes?The building harbors the Convenience store look.
And when the Convenience Store .........closed it's doors.........a Pet Shop emerged for a short time.
I know of the Pet Shop first hand,for the Shop business owners Wayne Burdette and Susie were friends of mine.
Yes, where the Prudential is used to be a Lil Champ for many many years. In fact, I can name about 5 places off the top of my head in the neighborhood that were once convenience stores(Walkers, Derby House, European Street, etc).
No one that runs a pet store can afford to buy that lot, construct a building and run a pet shop that maybe does 400k a year in revenue.
You guys simply aren't looking at this holistically. A bright, clean 7-11 can activate continuous pedestrian activity on that spot. The 15' setback allows for cafe style seating outside. Clearly there is a market for quick convenient items(Publix, Walgreens and 14 other convenience stores). There is nowhere on that strip that serves coffee, bagels, donuts and the like. Just take a look at Margaret/Riverside. The Einsteins and Starbucks create constant foot traffic on that corner. That spills over to the surrounding business. Foot traffic enhances retail vibrancy. Anyone that tells you otherwise doesn't know what they are talking about.
I for one think that if a select few people run away a context sensitive 7-11, then our community as a whole loses. It's attitudes like this that have killed downtown retail, created this ridiculous transient vendor ban which essentially kills legitimate and legal transient vendors(food trucks, hot dog carts, etc and does nothing to enforce the laws already on the books to squeeze out illegal transient vendors) and has made Jacksonville a place that seems bent on being hostile to America's number one jobs generator (small businesses) in an employment market that sorely needs a higher supply of employers.
+1
Very well said.
For some reason the Avondale community has become hyper-reactive.
The stance is realistically typical of many empowered,self aware communities,and in our case coupled with bad experiences,fatigue in the face of of continuous onslaught.(Commander Apartments et al)
In classic fashion,Citizen 'work shop',Overlay and other Growth Management elements may lend an initial sense of complacency.
Lesson learned is,when unveiling a proposal,provide some concrete concepts,renditions.
This episode is no different than past initial proclamation for a (Big Box?!?!) Public for Riverside........
It's a double bind and not the first time a community has become a victim of it's own success.
The hyper reaction may not be rooted in site proposal specific,but rather issues with "Parking".That shabby corner serves as a parking "sink".Development of the property would disperse parking pressure,simply flinging out to the surrounding residential areas,which in fact is the "official" assumption.At some point,patrons will refrain from parking relatively far out in a surrounding neighborhood.
Perhaps the image,promotion of the facility will or could be serving a 'walkable' community,a patron base less dependent on arrive by vehicle.How cool.......many dream and aspire to this stuff.
So while the Change Agents chant,such a Walkable community development is uncommon.
(tongue in healthy cheek,would the Nirvana Walk patrons support even the faux healthy junk food stuffs??Picky Picky Picky!)
QuoteAnd now,how about a PET SHOP??
They just opened a gigantic pet shop just up the street on Roosevelt and St. Johns. There's also a small pet shop just a couple doors up the street in Avondale (All About the Dog). We're probably good on pet shops. Just like we're saturated with realtor shops in Avondale. I think there's presently three.
QuoteLesson learned is,when unveiling a proposal,provide some concrete concepts,renditions.
I think they just wanted to get a feel about the reception they would get for building something like this, but the word spread like wildfire and then all of the sudden people act like they're about to break ground or something. I'm sure their intent is to provide design renderings. We should probably give them an opportunity to do such.
QuoteI for one think that if a select few people run away a context sensitive 7-11, then our community as a whole loses. It's attitudes like this that have killed downtown retail, created this ridiculous transient vendor ban which essentially kills legitimate and legal transient vendors(food trucks, hot dog carts, etc and does nothing to enforce the laws already on the books to squeeze out illegal transient vendors) and has made Jacksonville a place that seems bent on being hostile to America's number one jobs generator (small businesses) in an employment market that sorely needs a higher supply of employers.
Bingo.
Quote from: fieldafm on July 28, 2011, 11:49:47 PM
Yes, where the Prudential is used to be a Lil Champ for many many years. In fact, I can name about 5 places off the top of my head in the neighborhood that were once convenience stores(Walkers, Derby House, European Street, etc).
No one that runs a pet store can afford to buy that lot, construct a building and run a pet shop that maybe does 400k a year in revenue.
You guys simply aren't looking at this holistically. A bright, clean 7-11 can activate continuous pedestrian activity on that spot. The 15' setback allows for cafe style seating outside. Clearly there is a market for quick convenient items(Publix, Walgreens and 14 other convenience stores). There is nowhere on that strip that serves coffee, bagels, donuts and the like. Just take a look at Margaret/Riverside. The Einsteins and Starbucks create constant foot traffic on that corner. That spills over to the surrounding business. Foot traffic enhances retail vibrancy. Anyone that tells you otherwise doesn't know what they are talking about.
I for one think that if a select few people run away a context sensitive 7-11, then our community as a whole loses. It's attitudes like this that have killed downtown retail, created this ridiculous transient vendor ban which essentially kills legitimate and legal transient vendors(food trucks, hot dog carts, etc and does nothing to enforce the laws already on the books to squeeze out illegal transient vendors) and has made Jacksonville a place that seems bent on being hostile to America's number one jobs generator (small businesses) in an employment market that sorely needs a higher supply of employers.
Derby House has been what it is since the 50s or 60s. I think you're thinking of Carmine's, which used to be a 7-11.
FWIW, I don't mind convenience stores they're...well...convenient. If I just need milk or something and don't feel like spending 20 minutes in Publix then I often go into the A&P, they're good to have. I just wish the one on Saint Johns would re-open as a full-service gas station, there aren't that many around here and the couple that we do have are usually mobbed. I know I'm committing sacrilege by suggesting a gas station reopen on St. Johns Ave. but whatever, I think it would do a great business.
The only reason the one that's there now closed is that the owners have unrealistic expectations for the value of the property and weren't willing to help the lessees with replacing the metal tanks that had to be converted to fiberglass by the state-imposed deadline 6 or 8 years ago, if they were going to stay in business. They couldn't afford the tank replacement, so they closed. I think the family recognized the property had value back then and planned on selling it, they just grossly miscalculated what it's worth. The property has been unofficially for forever, because no broker would waste time with the listing. As overpriced as $1.3mm is, that's the lowest it's been. They're going the right direction. Slowly.
Speaking of, I still can't believe the cantina/liquor store guys found some realtor willing to waste time listing that for $2mm. You'd think this property owners had been hiding under a rock from 2008-2011 with these prices. Either that, or they don't really want to sell it. Or I guess maybe some of the commercial parcels are trapped in the same hole as many homeowners, they over-borrowed relative to the current value of the property, and can't sell it unless they somehow manage to achieve a totally unrealistic price that would satisfy the mortgage.
I am all for an appropriately designed 7-11 in the area. What I would love to see there though would be something similar to Parker's in downtown Savannah. It offers gas, typical convenience store offerings, and cafe/lunch items. It also has outside cafe seating.
As you can see in this picture the area for gas though is mainly a drive through with two pumps along the left side. This keeps it from putting the store so far back fro the street.
(http://parkers19.com/vimages/network/84/site_images/19-4803c8d6-ca1d-412a-866d-784166fc296d.jpg)
Here is a link to a slide show of the interior and their offerings.
http://www.cnsrvr.com/smn/rt/parkers_market/ec.html
QuoteDerby House has been what it is since the 50s or 60s. I think you're thinking of Carmine's, which used to be a 7-11.
Carmines was one of the ones I was thinking of, yes.... but where Derby House is used to be a service station. I believe DH opened in the early 70's. Little cloudy on that date though.
I think Carmines actually used to be a Jiffy. I can remember my mom always stopping there for Tab on the way to work at St Vincents when we lived off Challen. I'm pretty sure the only 7-11 in the neighborhood was across from Fishweir when Skinners Dairy was still in operation. Gate bought them out, then later opened up the suburban-style mega-station on Stockton and that convenience store on Herschel/St Johns is now independently owned. He actually tried overcharging me for a soda the other day much to my chagrin :)
Quote from: fieldafm on July 29, 2011, 10:45:50 AM
QuoteDerby House has been what it is since the 50s or 60s. I think you're thinking of Carmine's, which used to be a 7-11.
Carmines was one of the ones I was thinking of, yes.... but where Derby House is used to be a service station. I believe DH opened in the early 70's. Little cloudy on that date though.
Derby House has been open longer than that, hasn't it? I could swear my dad telling me that place was around when he was a kid in the 1950s. (Not that this has anything to do with the opening of a 7-11 in Avondale.)
...I did a little searching and found this: http://www.judeo-christian-co-op.com/derby_house.htm (http://www.judeo-christian-co-op.com/derby_house.htm) with a low-res photo. It's always exciting to me when I stumble on something like that on the internet.
Quote from: simms3 on July 28, 2011, 07:20:07 PM
Heard that the owners (a family) consist of one guy who wants to sell and a whole array of family members committed to the $1.3M list price (basically means they don't really want to sell). There is a brokerage(s) in town who did not take the listing for that reason (hence the thing is for sale by owner). Basically, these aren't serious sellers. As I said, their price basically equates to $4.8M an acre, which is unrealistic even for many larger cities.
Fans and Stones in 5points has been unofficially for sale too. $1 mill a few years ago maybe less now. At the corner of the 5points intersection
Quote from: fieldafm on July 29, 2011, 10:45:50 AM
QuoteDerby House has been what it is since the 50s or 60s. I think you're thinking of Carmine's, which used to be a 7-11.
Carmines was one of the ones I was thinking of, yes.... but where Derby House is used to be a service station. I believe DH opened in the early 70's. Little cloudy on that date though.
I think Carmines actually used to be a Jiffy. I can remember my mom always stopping there for Tab on the way to work at St Vincents when we lived off Challen. I'm pretty sure the only 7-11 in the neighborhood was across from Fishweir when Skinners Dairy was still in operation. Gate bought them out, then later opened up the suburban-style mega-station on Stockton and that convenience store on Herschel/St Johns is now independently owned. He actually tried overcharging me for a soda the other day much to my chagrin :)
I promise Derby House was always Derby House, since at least the 40s. That wasn't one of the ones that was a gas station. I've seen old pictures of 5 Points going back 6 or 7 decades over the years and it was already there then..kind of like the bacon they serve. When you drive by their sign says their opening date I think it's 1940-something.
Quote from: Bativac on July 29, 2011, 10:56:57 AM
Quote from: fieldafm on July 29, 2011, 10:45:50 AM
QuoteDerby House has been what it is since the 50s or 60s. I think you're thinking of Carmine's, which used to be a 7-11.
Carmines was one of the ones I was thinking of, yes.... but where Derby House is used to be a service station. I believe DH opened in the early 70's. Little cloudy on that date though.
Derby House has been open longer than that, hasn't it? I could swear my dad telling me that place was around when he was a kid in the 1950s. (Not that this has anything to do with the opening of a 7-11 in Avondale.)
...I did a little searching and found this: http://www.judeo-christian-co-op.com/derby_house.htm (http://www.judeo-christian-co-op.com/derby_house.htm) with a low-res photo. It's always exciting to me when I stumble on something like that on the internet.
Cool photo I hadn't seen that one yet. So it's been Derby House since 1944, that's about what I was thinking.
Could you be thinking of European Street on Park, which used to be a Cities Service / Citgo service station up until around 1970 or 1971?
Gosh yall are old!! LMBO ::)
Quote from: Lucasjj on July 29, 2011, 09:42:10 AM
I am all for an appropriately designed 7-11 in the area. What I would love to see there though would be something similar to Parker's in downtown Savannah. It offers gas, typical convenience store offerings, and cafe/lunch items. It also has outside cafe seating.
As you can see in this picture the area for gas though is mainly a drive through with two pumps along the left side. This keeps it from putting the store so far back fro the street.
(http://parkers19.com/vimages/network/84/site_images/19-4803c8d6-ca1d-412a-866d-784166fc296d.jpg)
Here is a link to a slide show of the interior and their offerings.
http://www.cnsrvr.com/smn/rt/parkers_market/ec.html
This place is AWESOME....a few of us stumbled across this store after an Avett Brothers concert in Savannah last July.
I can't say enough how much this would fit that space. The product would fit the clientele to a tee.
And it has gas, I'd love it. Perfect! I saw that driving by it in Savannah and thought it was a cool concept.
Holy mother of God. The sound at that Parkers link above is... loud.
FOR THE RECORD: This location is not a FSBO. It WAS a FSBO for at least two years, but now is listed by a local Commercial Broker. Do not know the current asking price. I believe they own it free and clear, no issues other than a lot of (sellers) signatures needed to close this deal and that usually slows things down. Add that to an already slow market and you have the current situation.
The FSBO comment is correct. No brokers "turned down" listing the property. The owners chose to put up a sign. and later turned to a broker.
Typically, a buyer requires a period of time to do a feasibility study, generally up to 90 days, and often with options to extend the feasibility duration for additional 30 day periods. It would not be surpising if the actual sale happens after Thanksgiving, if the Buyer sees no larger-than-life issues
Another point...an earlier postee lamented that an asking price of, say, $1.3 mil translates into about $4.8 mil per acre. That "method" is absolutely NOT how buyers determine the price they will pay. A purchase price is determined by several variables, such as the business plan, build out costs, capitalization of costs, return on investment. I know of a 3,000+ s.f. commercial building, with no parking and a zero lot line, in a similar shopping area, one story, which sold for about $1.2 mil. The building will be gutted then built out to suit the buyer's business plan. If the earlier postee's "method" of pricing the purchase were applied, the buyer is paying about $14 mil 'per acre'.
On another topic, I watched when the tanks, gas lines, pumps and dispensers were removed, followed by the removal of tons of contaminated soil, and replaced by clean soil. I later learned that the owners could have sold the contaminated property for a lot more than the current asking price, but would not pass along to the buyer the huge task of remediating the property. Kudos to the owners. I wonder how many of the postees on this board would have "taken the money and run" rather than do the right thing, AND pay for the cleanup to boot.
By the way....the removed tanks were fiberglass, not steel, as one of the postees presented as fact. I saw them come out of the ground, crushed and hauled away. It is interesting how people present themselves as "Carnac The Magnificent" when they more closely resemble Curly, Moe or Joe.
Quote from: logical on August 04, 2011, 06:16:21 PM
The FSBO comment is correct. No brokers "turned down" listing the property. The owners chose to put up a sign. and later turned to a broker.
Typically, a buyer requires a period of time to do a feasibility study, generally up to 90 days, and often with options to extend the feasibility duration for additional 30 day periods. It would not be surpising if the actual sale happens after Thanksgiving, if the Buyer sees no larger-than-life issues
Another point...an earlier postee lamented that an asking price of, say, $1.3 mil translates into about $4.8 mil per acre. That "method" is absolutely NOT how buyers determine the price they will pay. A purchase price is determined by several variables, such as the business plan, build out costs, capitalization of costs, return on investment. I know of a 3,000+ s.f. commercial building, with no parking and a zero lot line, in a similar shopping area, one story, which sold for about $1.2 mil. The building will be gutted then built out to suit the buyer's business plan. If the earlier postee's "method" of pricing the purchase were applied, the buyer is paying about $14 mil 'per acre'.
On another topic, I watched when the tanks, gas lines, pumps and dispensers were removed, followed by the removal of tons of contaminated soil, and replaced by clean soil. I later learned that the owners could have sold the contaminated property for a lot more than the current asking price, but would not pass along to the buyer the huge task of remediating the property. Kudos to the owners. I wonder how many of the postees on this board would have "taken the money and run" rather than do the right thing, AND pay for the cleanup to boot.
By the way....the removed tanks were fiberglass, not steel, as one of the postees presented as fact. I saw them come out of the ground, crushed and hauled away. It is interesting how people present themselves as "Carnac The Magnificent" when they more closely resemble Curly, Moe or Joe.
OWNED :o
Quote from: Gators312 on July 29, 2011, 10:14:26 PM
Quote from: Lucasjj on July 29, 2011, 09:42:10 AM
I am all for an appropriately designed 7-11 in the area. What I would love to see there though would be something similar to Parker's in downtown Savannah. It offers gas, typical convenience store offerings, and cafe/lunch items. It also has outside cafe seating.
As you can see in this picture the area for gas though is mainly a drive through with two pumps along the left side. This keeps it from putting the store so far back fro the street.
(http://parkers19.com/vimages/network/84/site_images/19-4803c8d6-ca1d-412a-866d-784166fc296d.jpg)
Here is a link to a slide show of the interior and their offerings.
http://www.cnsrvr.com/smn/rt/parkers_market/ec.html
This place is AWESOME....a few of us stumbled across this store after an Avett Brothers concert in Savannah last July.
I can't say enough how much this would fit that space. The product would fit the clientele to a tee.
That Parker's in downtown Savannah is one of the coolest gas stations I've ever been to. Genius use of urban space. Only gas station I've ever been to where I can get gas, a smoothie, Saracha sauce, and some unique ethnic food goods...
Having dinner at 'town tonight , heard that this was a done deal. Already closed. Can anyone confirm this? My source is well placed.
Quote from: MusicMan on August 09, 2011, 10:55:13 PM
Having dinner at 'town tonight , heard that this was a done deal. Already closed. Can anyone confirm this? My source is well placed.
@ What price?
Quote from: logical on August 04, 2011, 06:16:21 PM
The FSBO comment is correct. No brokers "turned down" listing the property. The owners chose to put up a sign. and later turned to a broker.
Typically, a buyer requires a period of time to do a feasibility study, generally up to 90 days, and often with options to extend the feasibility duration for additional 30 day periods. It would not be surpising if the actual sale happens after Thanksgiving, if the Buyer sees no larger-than-life issues
Another point...an earlier postee lamented that an asking price of, say, $1.3 mil translates into about $4.8 mil per acre. That "method" is absolutely NOT how buyers determine the price they will pay. A purchase price is determined by several variables, such as the business plan, build out costs, capitalization of costs, return on investment. I know of a 3,000+ s.f. commercial building, with no parking and a zero lot line, in a similar shopping area, one story, which sold for about $1.2 mil. The building will be gutted then built out to suit the buyer's business plan. If the earlier postee's "method" of pricing the purchase were applied, the buyer is paying about $14 mil 'per acre'.
On another topic, I watched when the tanks, gas lines, pumps and dispensers were removed, followed by the removal of tons of contaminated soil, and replaced by clean soil. I later learned that the owners could have sold the contaminated property for a lot more than the current asking price, but would not pass along to the buyer the huge task of remediating the property. Kudos to the owners. I wonder how many of the postees on this board would have "taken the money and run" rather than do the right thing, AND pay for the cleanup to boot.
By the way....the removed tanks were fiberglass, not steel, as one of the postees presented as fact. I saw them come out of the ground, crushed and hauled away. It is interesting how people present themselves as "Carnac The Magnificent" when they more closely resemble Curly, Moe or Joe.
Welcome, newbie.
So let me ask you this; Why would they have closed the station to avoid remediating fiberglass tanks that already met the new DEP guidelines? Did they just enjoy losing money?
Also, they weren't "crushed" they were hauled off on a truck, to where I don't know. I am surprised you didn't know this. This would appear to indicate to me that you know only what the owners are telling you. Regarding your comments about "take the money and run" implying that this would leave the problem for a future buyer, as long as an owner discloses a latent defect, which in this case would have been a mandatory tank remediation, then you simply factor that into the price and move forward. This is hardly cheating anyone, or shirking any responsibility, as the buyer would be well aware of what he was required to do before the sale closed. And it is perfectly legal. Not sure why you imply that would have been bad or wrong somehow?
The fact that they didn't do this is reflective of exactly what I mentioned, that they grossly overpriced the property and thought the remediation would be cheaper than taking the corresponding price cut, trying to wring every last dollar out of it. I love how you've spun this as some altruistic measure, almost as though they were charitably contributing to the next owner. Give me a break.
Quote from: acme54321 on August 05, 2011, 05:49:40 AM
Quote from: logical on August 04, 2011, 06:16:21 PM
The FSBO comment is correct. No brokers "turned down" listing the property. The owners chose to put up a sign. and later turned to a broker.
Typically, a buyer requires a period of time to do a feasibility study, generally up to 90 days, and often with options to extend the feasibility duration for additional 30 day periods. It would not be surpising if the actual sale happens after Thanksgiving, if the Buyer sees no larger-than-life issues
Another point...an earlier postee lamented that an asking price of, say, $1.3 mil translates into about $4.8 mil per acre. That "method" is absolutely NOT how buyers determine the price they will pay. A purchase price is determined by several variables, such as the business plan, build out costs, capitalization of costs, return on investment. I know of a 3,000+ s.f. commercial building, with no parking and a zero lot line, in a similar shopping area, one story, which sold for about $1.2 mil. The building will be gutted then built out to suit the buyer's business plan. If the earlier postee's "method" of pricing the purchase were applied, the buyer is paying about $14 mil 'per acre'.
On another topic, I watched when the tanks, gas lines, pumps and dispensers were removed, followed by the removal of tons of contaminated soil, and replaced by clean soil. I later learned that the owners could have sold the contaminated property for a lot more than the current asking price, but would not pass along to the buyer the huge task of remediating the property. Kudos to the owners. I wonder how many of the postees on this board would have "taken the money and run" rather than do the right thing, AND pay for the cleanup to boot.
By the way....the removed tanks were fiberglass, not steel, as one of the postees presented as fact. I saw them come out of the ground, crushed and hauled away. It is interesting how people present themselves as "Carnac The Magnificent" when they more closely resemble Curly, Moe or Joe.
OWNED :o
Hardly.
What we clearly have here is the agent trying to justify a price that, since he mentioned Carnac, is a better joke than even Carson himself could have written. I guess there's a sucker born every minute, and he must have found one. Let's just hope for his sake it's a cash deal, and there is no financing contingent on an appraisal.
To put this in further perspective, almost directly across the street you can get a similarly-sized parcel for $1.9mm (and that's only asking) that includes an operating restaurant, an operating liquor store, a 4COP liquor license, and the extant structures which are in reasonably good condition, all for $600k more than this former gas station where you'll have to invest another $1mm +/- on top of the purchase price in demolishing it and building a new structure from scratch.
FWIW, I think the Monty's listing is also overpriced, so that should tell you what my thoughts are on the price of this complete teardown. I guess if the buyer is 7-11 then they can overpay as much as they'd like, it's only stockholder's money. But if it's a private buyer, I hope the price reflects a grossly discounted figure from the list price, or else my advice would be please don't scuff the walls, let's keep it nice in case I want to pick it up at the foreclosure sale.
Did not get the price, but it will be public record in a week or two (coj.net) if it did indeed sell.
The geuss-timate was less than $1 million.
If they pay $800,000 then do a tear away + buildout at that site they will be in it for ??????????????
$1.3 million?? How many Snickers and Slurpee's do you have to sell to be profitable with that expense??
Considering they pull in about $15billion company-wide per year, I think they can afford it.
The 7-11 I walked in the other day sold a lot more than slurpees and candy bars. It was stocked like a small market. It sold fresh fruit, frozen foods, milk and general merchandise items like deodorant. There was also some sort of hot bar with hot dogs and pizza. Oh yeah, you could still get your slurpee on as well. This seems like a company that knows how to operate it's business, so if they do buy this lot, you better believe they'll stock it in a manner that brings profitable returns. Jacksonville really needs to grow up and look at the world outside of Duval County.
Amen, thelakelander...
I still don't want it there. I have traveled all over Florida and the United States, more than almost anyone I know,
I have lived in Tallahassee, Coral Gables, South Beach, Boca Raton, Naples, and now Jacksonville. In all my travels I have never seen a 7-11 that I thought would fit in at The Shoppes of Avondale.
If you asked every person who blogs on MJ to complete a top 10 list about what they would like to see there, how many would have a 7-11 in their list? Not me. Now, I may be wrong. I don't mind being wrong or being proved wrong, but a 7-11 is not an upgrade to The Shoppes, no amount of "spin" or commentary will ever make me believe that is the best use of that lot.
In brainstorming with one of the Shoppes owners, we agreed the best use would have been for all the owners to chip in, buy the lot, and put a beautiful "landmark quality" fountain on the corner and some shaded parking and seating in that space. A total pipe dream I realize, but then The Shoppes would have a unique architectural point of interest/reflection and some shaded dedicated parking, which it sorely needs.
P.S. The Shoppes has several critically acclaimed eateries: if you go to 7-11 to get lunch then that would have a negative impact on those locally owned restaurants.
No one going to the brick will for go it for 7-11. Your right it wouldn't be a first choice.
Quote from: MusicMan on August 10, 2011, 01:38:19 PM
I still don't want it there. I have traveled all over Florida and the United States, more than almost anyone I know,
I have lived in Tallahassee, Coral Gables, South Beach, Boca Raton, Naples, and now Jacksonville. In all my travels I have never seen a 7-11 that I thought would fit in at The Shoppes of Avondale.
If you asked every person who blogs on MJ to complete a top 10 list about what they would like to see there, how many would have a 7-11 in their list? Not me. Now, I may be wrong. I don't mind being wrong or being proved wrong, but a 7-11 is not an upgrade to The Shoppes, no amount of "spin" or commentary will ever make me believe that is the best use of that lot.
In brainstorming with one of the Shoppes owners, we agreed the best use would have been for all the owners to chip in, buy the lot, and put a beautiful "landmark quality" fountain on the corner and some shaded parking and seating in that space. A total pipe dream I realize, but then The Shoppes would have a unique architectural point of interest/reflection and some shaded dedicated parking, which it sorely needs.
P.S. The Shoppes has several critically acclaimed eateries: if you go to 7-11 to get lunch then that would have a negative impact on those locally owned restaurants.
Seems like it's a question of "what would local businesses like to see" versus "what business is actually willing to sink the money into opening something there."
Yeah, there are more upscale places than 7-11, but it seems to me that a 7-11 would be preferable to an empty lot.
Look at the Racetrac gas station that just opened on Atlantic near the Hart Bridge expressway. FAR superior to what was there beforehand. All things considered, I'd rather have had an art gallery or an imported foods market or something, but a nice gas station is better than the crappy gas station and the adjoining vacant lot that were there before.
QuoteIn brainstorming with one of the Shoppes owners, we agreed the best use would have been for all the owners to chip in, buy the lot, and put a beautiful "landmark quality" fountain on the corner and some shaded parking and seating in that space.
Glad your "brainstorming" came up with what you thought would be the "best use" for the site. So I'm wondering why you guys haven't come forward and stroked a check make this dream a reality? Question: do you think a context sensitive 7-11 (such as the multitude of examples that have been posted) is better than a vacant lot?
"Seems like it's a question of "what would local businesses like to see" versus "what business is actually willing to sink the money into opening something there."
Good point. These huge multi-national corps are well positioned to take advantage of the market conditions right now. I would bet that 7-11 Corp is not financing this deal. I imagine it is cash.
possibly none of this matters
Parking facility may in fact be the highest,best and most embarrassing use........
Bad deals get worse
The episode driven by unrealistic sellers/over priced,unfounded expectations.Therefore enters speculative entity that simply,so easlily explores what can be had.
the Resident News is to be commended for their outlook,coverage parameters
As to evolving Convenience stores,I remain hopeful.Visits to central and Northern California revealed many examples of a different really wonderful neighborhood small footprint 'convenience store' facility.We were there in anticipation of Avondale going bad,sad.The next move.
prove me wrong,please.
I don't think you have to worry NM . RAP will have the lot stay undeveloped before allowing something that is not context sensitive into the space. A landmark fountain would be great. You had better start that donation drive fast.
QuoteParking facility may in fact be the highest,best and most embarrassing use
A parking facility? I'll go ahead and assume that's an "embarrassing" joke. There is ample on-street parking throughout the neighborhood (I prefer to walk to The Shoppes however).
Actually on-street parking in that neighborhood is below average. In fact on Riverside immediately behind The Shoppes it is particularly awful. The streets in that particular area are mostly skinny, not really leaving enough room for parking (on street) and two cars to pass . The new street scape is very nice, however, as is the angle parking.
Why does a local residential street need to be wide enough to allow for two cars to pass? You have a natural solution to slowing down vehicle speeds already. Enjoy it.
Is this a step back towards the "neighborhood corner grocery store" that all of the historic neighborhoods used to have? The store on the corner of Oak and Stockton seems to be well used by walk-up traffic more than automobile traffic.
QuoteActually on-street parking in that neighborhood is below average
There is only one street that is narrow near the Shoppes. And frankly I have seen many children playing in the front yards on that street, so having slow traffic is actually a virtue.
QuoteIn all my travels I have never seen a 7-11 that I thought would fit in at The Shoppes of Avondale.
You need to travel more. I've seen about 10 7-11's in other cities that would fit very well... all seen in the first 6 months of this year alone.
Quoteput a beautiful "landmark quality" fountain on the corner and some shaded parking and seating in that space
Really? That is PRIME commercial land... and the best thing to do is put a big fountain there?
QuoteThe Shoppes has several critically acclaimed eateries: if you go to 7-11 to get lunch then that would have a negative impact on those locally owned restaurants.
So yesterday, when I went grabbed a to-go sandwich at Goal Post, stopped and got a banana at Gate on Stockton and then later grabbed a sub to go at Larry's... I was somehow destroying the Shoppes of Avondale? So by that measure, I guess buying a couple of steaks at Publix last Sunday and grilling them in the backyard was somehow taking a defiant stand against local business.
Really doesn't matter at this point. The sale has gone through. It will be a two parcel building and 7-11 serving as the end cap space. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Biscotti's is not going to close b/c a 7-11 is right down the street(there are already three convenience stores two blocks away).
I believe one element of the opposition to an Avondale 7-Eleven is based on fear. There is a fear that the wrong elements will frequent the 7-Eleven and will scare away patrons of nearby businesses. I am going to go out on a limb and say that the 7-Eleven will likely end up with a clientele from the immediate neighborhood or from those who are patronizing nearby businesses.
Based on my own personal experience, my convencience store habits rarely change. I also know others who have their daily or regular routine that involves going to the same one or two convenience stores. I do not forsee someone from another part of Riverside-Avondale going out of their way to shop at the 7-Eleven - especially with the cost of gas. The only exception may be those who want to go out of their way for a Slurpee.
Two parcels? Interesting. The parking all around there sucks. Sorry it sucks but it does. Especially if you actiually own a home around there. Nothing like having 20-something partiers dropping cig butts and other crap in and around your lawn as they are going to and from the fun spots.
Well it is a nice parcel, but PRIME? That explains why it sat empty for 3+ years.
You know, it 's sort of like Central Park. If that space (in Avondale) had been made a beautiful fountain plus shaded parking and seating it would actually increase the value of everything else around it.. And twenty years from now people would be saying how smart of a choice it was. Imagine if the citizens of New York had said, "That Park sure is PRIME real estate. Let's build on it." They had the foresight and wisdom not to build on it. And guess what, now the properties surrounding Central Park are among the most desireable in Manhattan. Whenever I go to a place where they had the vision not to develop every parcel but to set some aside for non-commercial public use, it always pays off in the long run. AND the Shoppes could use a small designated parking area.
And now I will put my soap box away.
Quote from: MusicMan on August 12, 2011, 12:12:15 PM
The parking all around there sucks. Sorry it sucks but it does. Especially if you actually own a home around there. Nothing like having 20-something partiers dropping cig butts and other crap in and around your lawn as they are going to and from the fun spots.
If your tired of 20-somethings bothering your lawn then I would think you'd be happy to have something open in the shops other than another place to drink. I would imagine a 7-11 will draw more near by residents who will walk to the store than a restaurant that would bring in more bar hoppers.
Also, we're lucky to have a huge park 1 block over that provides plenty of access to trees and shade, so I don't think that would be a good use for the space. Boone Park also has lots of parking, if someone is willing to walk 1 block. We also now have the fountain that they added next to Blue Fish- not sure when it's going to be completed and have water in it, but it's a fountain non the less if a water feature is important to you.
The only reasons we've heard not to have a 7-11 is because the store owners are terrified of competition. Run your establishment well and you won't loose business to a 7-11. And from people who are worried about additional parking- but no matter what opens here it will hopefully draw additional business and there for drivers, I think a 7-11 would actually bring in far less cars than any other type of proposed business.
Interesting. So 7-11 is going to construct a multi tenant building? If so, that should be a pretty decent addition to the strip.
As long as it is a Sushi/Nail Salon combo.
Quote from: cline on August 10, 2011, 10:33:02 PM
QuoteParking facility may in fact be the highest,best and most embarrassing use
A parking facility? I'll go ahead and assume that's an "embarrassing" joke. There is ample on-street parking throughout the neighborhood (I prefer to walk to The Shoppes however).
RAP (as well as me personally) are getting complaints from residents that live behind the shoppes that they cannot park on the street by their homes anymore because of the shoppe traffic. Some driveways have been blocked and where there are not driveways residents are having to park 4 blocks away. So they perceive parking as a problem--fyi.
One solution that a lot of other cities have is to issue neighborhood parking decals for the residents and designate certain parts of the street for resident parking only. Of course someone (JSO) will have to enforce.
QuoteRAP (as well as me personally) are getting complaints from residents that live behind the shoppes that they cannot park on the street by their homes anymore because of the shoppe traffic. Some driveways have been blocked and where there are not driveways residents are having to park 4 blocks away. So they perceive parking as a problem--fyi.
So basically what these residents are saying is that they should be the only ones allowed to park in front of their house. If driveways are blocked that is a different story- those cars should be towed but the fact of the matter is that cars are allowed to park on the street. I routinly have cars parked on the street in front of my home.
Right. I'm looking outside my window. Lots of "stranger" cars are parked on the street in front of my house. You'd think they were parked legally on public property, or something. ;)
If my driveway was blocked, I'd call JSO or ASAP. Not RAP.
Guys: I'm just telling you about some residents concerns. I try not to blow off anyone's concerns. When conditons change from what they were after you've lived somewhere a while, people may get upset. I understand it whether or not I agree with it. I think one of the challenges in RA with residences and commercial uses right next to each other is how not to negatively impact residential quality of life yet at the same time having vibrant commercial establishments.
Quote from: MusicMan on August 12, 2011, 12:12:15 PM
Two parcels? Interesting. The parking all around there sucks. Sorry it sucks but it does. Especially if you actiually own a home around there. Nothing like having 20-something partiers dropping cig butts and other crap in and around your lawn as they are going to and from the fun spots.
Well it is a nice parcel, but PRIME? That explains why it sat empty for 3+ years.
You know, it 's sort of like Central Park. If that space (in Avondale) had been made a beautiful fountain plus shaded parking and seating it would actually increase the value of everything else around it.. And twenty years from now people would be saying how smart of a choice it was. Imagine if the citizens of New York had said, "That Park sure is PRIME real estate. Let's build on it." They had the foresight and wisdom not to build on it. And guess what, now the properties surrounding Central Park are among the most desireable in Manhattan. Whenever I go to a place where they had the vision not to develop every parcel but to set some aside for non-commercial public use, it always pays off in the long run. AND the Shoppes could use a small designated parking area.
And now I will put my soap box away.
Why has the property been [sic] "unused" for 3+ years"? The owners had about 100 opportunities for long-term leases...some really, really good, but chose to not go that route. All of the postees are getting older and will reach a time when a long-term lease will quickly outlive you.
And somehow a nice fountain with shaded parking is the "highest and best use" ??? Well, why don't you and other like-minded people put on the table the same money 7-11 is willing to invest to turn a profit? Right...your notion of the "highest and best use" goes 'pooof'.
I hear there is another player who has the $$ and is ready to put in a Gentleman's club, with parking on the ground level and the 'club' on the second level. If the 7-11 opportunity dies the Gentleman's club is in, and RAP or the Ah-vahn-dale' elite can't stop it. Anyone out there interested in some "lap-dancing" lessons
Quote from: logical on August 12, 2011, 03:09:21 PM
I hear there is another player who has the $$ and is ready to put in a Gentleman's club, with parking on the ground level and the 'club' on the second level. If the 7-11 opportunity dies the Gentleman's club is in, and RAP or the Ah-vahn-dale' elite can't stop it. Anyone out there interested in some "lap-dancing" lessons
Seriously? You truly believe that somebody could open a gentleman's club at that location? COJ is presently staring at a petition for certiori to SCOTUS, or put another way the City is willing to go all the way to the US Supreme Court to close some existing gentlemens' clubs in other locations that are a lot more suited to that use than Avondale. You are out of your gourd if you believe for a second they'd even get the building permit, let alone a zoning variance or business license, to open up a strip club at that location.
Honestly, I'm hoping you were kidding. Otherwise, it's clear you don't understand land use and zoning very well.
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-07-18/story/nude-clubs-might-be-closed-jacksonville
Quote:
"I hear there is another player who has the $$ and is ready to put in a Gentleman's club, with parking on the ground level and the 'club' on the second level. If the 7-11 opportunity dies the Gentleman's club is in, and RAP or the Ah-vahn-dale' elite can't stop it. Anyone out there interested in some "lap-dancing" lessons."
That must be a joke, and it was funny.
Just because neighbors complain about parking, it doesn't mean that parking is a problem that needs to be addressed.
If a parking structure does go there, it would have to include something like a 7-11 at ground level, or else it would create a dead zone within an otherwise vibrant area.
I've haven't seen any of them myself, but I have heard about 7-11 stores that are very attractive. I'd go there.
Tempest meet Teapot.
Upstairs Gentleman's Club?Hey,this is Avondale-why not a Gentlewomen's Club?
Upstairs Sterlings/Bluefish can get................well,skip that,how would I know???
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on August 12, 2011, 03:20:24 PM
Quote from: logical on August 12, 2011, 03:09:21 PM
I hear there is another player who has the $$ and is ready to put in a Gentleman's club, with parking on the ground level and the 'club' on the second level. If the 7-11 opportunity dies the Gentleman's club is in, and RAP or the Ah-vahn-dale' elite can't stop it. Anyone out there interested in some "lap-dancing" lessons
Seriously? You truly believe that somebody could open a gentleman's club at that location? COJ is presently staring at a petition for certiori to SCOTUS, or put another way the City is willing to go all the way to the US Supreme Court to close some existing gentlemens' clubs in other locations that are a lot more suited to that use than Avondale. You are out of your gourd if you believe for a second they'd even get the building permit, let alone a zoning variance or business license, to open up a strip club at that location. Honestly, I'm hoping you were kidding. Otherwise, it's clear you don't understand land use and zoning very well.
Not a strip club, but a very nice "Gentleman's Club". The Shell station could reopen tomorrow as a "Full Service Station"...the property is zoned CCG1, almost the bottom of the zoning chain. I'm thinking that the club design would keep the middle hydraulic lift as is (in the 1st floor parking area) so that guests in stretch limos could drive onto the lift, be raised right up to the 'Guest Floor' and get "Full Service" without ever leaving the vehicle...maybe a lube job, wax job or full detail.
Not that it matters much in the conversation... but I know my dad talked about that gas station at Five Points quite a bit(where Derby House is now). It was bugging the heck out of me, enough so that I searched for a picture.
(http://www.5pointsjax.com/History/Images/old_light.jpg)
Again, it doesn't matter one way or the other... but at least I am satisfied in knowing I wasn't talking out my backside when referancing Derby House earlier.
I am still in favor of a context-sensitive 7-11 here, and with a sales contract signed... the wheels are turning in that direction.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on July 29, 2011, 09:26:54 AM
Quote from: fieldafm on July 28, 2011, 11:49:47 PM
Yes, where the Prudential is used to be a Lil Champ for many many years. In fact, I can name about 5 places off the top of my head in the neighborhood that were once convenience stores(Walkers, Derby House, European Street, etc).
No one that runs a pet store can afford to buy that lot, construct a building and run a pet shop that maybe does 400k a year in revenue.
You guys simply aren't looking at this holistically. A bright, clean 7-11 can activate continuous pedestrian activity on that spot. The 15' setback allows for cafe style seating outside. Clearly there is a market for quick convenient items(Publix, Walgreens and 14 other convenience stores). There is nowhere on that strip that serves coffee, bagels, donuts and the like. Just take a look at Margaret/Riverside. The Einsteins and Starbucks create constant foot traffic on that corner. That spills over to the surrounding business. Foot traffic enhances retail vibrancy. Anyone that tells you otherwise doesn't know what they are talking about.
I for one think that if a select few people run away a context sensitive 7-11, then our community as a whole loses. It's attitudes like this that have killed downtown retail, created this ridiculous transient vendor ban which essentially kills legitimate and legal transient vendors(food trucks, hot dog carts, etc and does nothing to enforce the laws already on the books to squeeze out illegal transient vendors) and has made Jacksonville a place that seems bent on being hostile to America's number one jobs generator (small businesses) in an employment market that sorely needs a higher supply of employers.
Derby House has been what it is since the 50s or 60s. I think you're thinking of Carmine's, which used to be a 7-11...
I never thought you were talking out of your azz, but if you re-read the original comment that started our back and forth, one must note that we weren't just talking about gas stations generally, we were talking about convenience stores. Look at the title of this thread. Your comment that I corrected was that Derby House used to be a convenience store, which it never was. A Texaco station that went out of business in 1943 wasn't the original point of contention, was it?
That photo looks to be early/mid 1940s if I had to guess. And we already found another photo from 1944 showing the Derby House, which not coincidentally also has "Since 1944" on its sign out front. So it's been there since that time. I don't believe a 1920s/1930s era service station would be what you'd call a "convenience store." It would have had a cashier's booth, attendants, and a couple gas pumps, nothing resembling a convenience store except some of them maybe had a soda machine.
PS: I am in favor of the 7-11, and despite my shock at the price it was implied they are paying, I have been from the get-go. Just noticed this minor point of trivia over Derby House, and figured I'd correct the record.
What ARE those things on the 5 Points beacon?
Quote from: Dog Walker on August 30, 2011, 03:52:26 PM
What ARE those things on the 5 Points beacon?
Apparently they're angels, which is sort of what I thought they were even before I found this:
http://www.5pointsjax.com/oldnew.html
Saw a 7-11 in Chicago in an historic building; it had no exterior sign at all. You could look in and see the logo inside. Well done.
So is there any news on the 7-11 deal?
They are probably holding to see if there is a Mobility Fee Moratorium. ::)
Quote from: fieldafm
I am still in favor of a context-sensitive 7-11 here, and with a sales contract signed... the wheels are turning in that direction.
/quote]
"Is Avondale Ready for a 7-Eleven" I say Yes besides Avondale is just another part of Jacksonville.
Oh, but we are so the best part.
I believe Lake mentioned in another thread that the Avondale 7-11 is dead.
It is dead, 7-11 backed out (unfortunately)
Quote from: fieldafm on January 16, 2012, 02:21:20 PM
It is dead, 7-11 backed out (unfortunately)
Do you happen to know why? Was it the resistance from tho select merchants / residents? As a resident within walking distance I was in full support of a 7/11. Not a fan of the jumbled parking lot that takes shape in front of abandoned gas station.
I heard it was due to neighborhood opposition. Others may have more details.
7-11 didn't like its developer's plans. Now it's two stories, with a 7-11 on the bottom floor and an internet cafe on the 2nd floor.
someone will do something with the space, the area is too hot for it to sit empty for too long.
Quote from: fieldafm on January 16, 2012, 02:21:20 PM
It is dead, 7-11 backed out (unfortunately)
Like I told that realtor who was arguing with me, it didn't make business sense. The price was impossible for that use.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on August 10, 2011, 08:25:58 AM
Quote from: acme54321 on August 05, 2011, 05:49:40 AM
Quote from: logical on August 04, 2011, 06:16:21 PM
The FSBO comment is correct. No brokers "turned down" listing the property. The owners chose to put up a sign. and later turned to a broker.
Typically, a buyer requires a period of time to do a feasibility study, generally up to 90 days, and often with options to extend the feasibility duration for additional 30 day periods. It would not be surpising if the actual sale happens after Thanksgiving, if the Buyer sees no larger-than-life issues
Another point...an earlier postee lamented that an asking price of, say, $1.3 mil translates into about $4.8 mil per acre. That "method" is absolutely NOT how buyers determine the price they will pay. A purchase price is determined by several variables, such as the business plan, build out costs, capitalization of costs, return on investment. I know of a 3,000+ s.f. commercial building, with no parking and a zero lot line, in a similar shopping area, one story, which sold for about $1.2 mil. The building will be gutted then built out to suit the buyer's business plan. If the earlier postee's "method" of pricing the purchase were applied, the buyer is paying about $14 mil 'per acre'.
On another topic, I watched when the tanks, gas lines, pumps and dispensers were removed, followed by the removal of tons of contaminated soil, and replaced by clean soil. I later learned that the owners could have sold the contaminated property for a lot more than the current asking price, but would not pass along to the buyer the huge task of remediating the property. Kudos to the owners. I wonder how many of the postees on this board would have "taken the money and run" rather than do the right thing, AND pay for the cleanup to boot.
By the way....the removed tanks were fiberglass, not steel, as one of the postees presented as fact. I saw them come out of the ground, crushed and hauled away. It is interesting how people present themselves as "Carnac The Magnificent" when they more closely resemble Curly, Moe or Joe.
OWNED :o
Hardly.
What we clearly have here is the agent trying to justify a price that, since he mentioned Carnac, is a better joke than even Carson himself could have written. I guess there's a sucker born every minute, and he must have found one. Let's just hope for his sake it's a cash deal, and there is no financing contingent on an appraisal.
To put this in further perspective, almost directly across the street you can get a similarly-sized parcel for $1.9mm (and that's only asking) that includes an operating restaurant, an operating liquor store, a 4COP liquor license, and the extant structures which are in reasonably good condition, all for $600k more than this former gas station where you'll have to invest another $1mm +/- on top of the purchase price in demolishing it and building a new structure from scratch.
FWIW, I think the Monty's listing is also overpriced, so that should tell you what my thoughts are on the price of this complete teardown. I guess if the buyer is 7-11 then they can overpay as much as they'd like, it's only stockholder's money. But if it's a private buyer, I hope the price reflects a grossly discounted figure from the list price, or else my advice would be please don't scuff the walls, let's keep it nice in case I want to pick it up at the foreclosure sale.
And well, well, well. Now that we're in 2012, and everyone knows 7-11 balked at the
highway robbery excuse me, "deal," and pulled out, I wanted to revisit the "OWNED" comment for a moment.
So now that that's out of the way, I actually have to thank logical and the owners for maintaining a ludicrous asking price, since I continue to enjoy the free parking whenever I go eat at one of the fully operational and built-out restaurants nearby, any of which you'd probably have no trouble picking up for less than this 7-11 would have cost. Gosh, I can't imagine why this listing's not flying right off the shelf.
But what do I know, after all when I pointed this out last year, I was "owned" and whatnot.
Quote from: logical on February 05, 2012, 08:31:44 PM
7-11 didn't like its developer's plans. Now it's two stories, with a 7-11 on the bottom floor and an internet cafe on the 2nd floor.
Where did you hear this?
^I think logical may have been joking.
Ah, he got me :)
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 08, 2012, 07:08:17 AM
Quote from: fieldafm on January 16, 2012, 02:21:20 PM
It is dead, 7-11 backed out (unfortunately)
Like I told that realtor who was arguing with me, it didn't make business sense. The price was impossible for that use.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on August 10, 2011, 08:25:58 AM
Quote from: acme54321 on August 05, 2011, 05:49:40 AM
Quote from: logical on August 04, 2011, 06:16:21 PM
The FSBO comment is correct. No brokers "turned down" listing the property. The owners chose to put up a sign. and later turned to a broker.
Typically, a buyer requires a period of time to do a feasibility study, generally up to 90 days, and often with options to extend the feasibility duration for additional 30 day periods. It would not be surpising if the actual sale happens after Thanksgiving, if the Buyer sees no larger-than-life issues
Another point...an earlier postee lamented that an asking price of, say, $1.3 mil translates into about $4.8 mil per acre. That "method" is absolutely NOT how buyers determine the price they will pay. A purchase price is determined by several variables, such as the business plan, build out costs, capitalization of costs, return on investment. I know of a 3,000+ s.f. commercial building, with no parking and a zero lot line, in a similar shopping area, one story, which sold for about $1.2 mil. The building will be gutted then built out to suit the buyer's business plan. If the earlier postee's "method" of pricing the purchase were applied, the buyer is paying about $14 mil 'per acre'.
On another topic, I watched when the tanks, gas lines, pumps and dispensers were removed, followed by the removal of tons of contaminated soil, and replaced by clean soil. I later learned that the owners could have sold the contaminated property for a lot more than the current asking price, but would not pass along to the buyer the huge task of remediating the property. Kudos to the owners. I wonder how many of the postees on this board would have "taken the money and run" rather than do the right thing, AND pay for the cleanup to boot.
By the way....the removed tanks were fiberglass, not steel, as one of the postees presented as fact. I saw them come out of the ground, crushed and hauled away. It is interesting how people present themselves as "Carnac The Magnificent" when they more closely resemble Curly, Moe or Joe.
OWNED :o
Hardly.
What we clearly have here is the agent trying to justify a price that, since he mentioned Carnac, is a better joke than even Carson himself could have written. I guess there's a sucker born every minute, and he must have found one. Let's just hope for his sake it's a cash deal, and there is no financing contingent on an appraisal.
To put this in further perspective, almost directly across the street you can get a similarly-sized parcel for $1.9mm (and that's only asking) that includes an operating restaurant, an operating liquor store, a 4COP liquor license, and the extant structures which are in reasonably good condition, all for $600k more than this former gas station where you'll have to invest another $1mm +/- on top of the purchase price in demolishing it and building a new structure from scratch.
FWIW, I think the Monty's listing is also overpriced, so that should tell you what my thoughts are on the price of this complete teardown. I guess if the buyer is 7-11 then they can overpay as much as they'd like, it's only stockholder's money. But if it's a private buyer, I hope the price reflects a grossly discounted figure from the list price, or else my advice would be please don't scuff the walls, let's keep it nice in case I want to pick it up at the foreclosure sale.
And well, well, well. Now that we're in 2012, and everyone knows 7-11 balked at the highway robbery excuse me, "deal," and pulled out, I wanted to revisit the "OWNED" comment for a moment.
So now that that's out of the way, I actually have to thank logical and the owners for maintaining a ludicrous asking price, since I continue to enjoy the free parking whenever I go eat at one of the fully operational and built-out restaurants nearby, any of which you'd probably have no trouble picking up for less than this 7-11 would have cost. Gosh, I can't imagine why this listing's not flying right off the shelf.
But what do I know, after all when I pointed this out last year, I was "owned" and whatnot.
Quote from: cline on February 08, 2012, 09:03:59 AM
Quote from: logical on February 05, 2012, 08:31:44 PM
7-11 didn't like its developer's plans. Now it's two stories, with a 7-11 on the bottom floor and an internet cafe on the 2nd floor.
Where did you hear this?
*******************************************************************************************
This response is to the post just above, NOT to Logical's previous post (hit the wrong 'quote') 8)
You say there is a similar sized property almost across the street (from the Shell Station) and the asking price is $1.9 mil. Well that property is only 6,900 s.f. versus the Shell property of about 12,500 s.f. AND your "similar sized property" is almost two blocks South of the Shell property, near the end of the shops strip.
You say you like the 'free parking'. You obviously didn't read or ignored the posted NO TRESPASSING signs with applicable Florida Statutes displayed on the signs. Well, I did see the signs and am familiar with the Statutes. Anybody can be arrested for just being on the property. The owner appears to have been a 'nice' neighbor by not booting the parkers a long time ago. I choose to respect the owner's posted signage.
I enjoyed watching the smart aleck guy who parked in front of the middle bay, then give the owner the f____r when told to move his pretty, pretty BMW, get arrested by the JSO when he came back to his car, and hauled off to the pokey. It was also quite enjoyable seeing his precious BMW towed off. I'll bet he doesn't park there anymore. His payoff ?? Time to cool off "downtown", a criminal record, a fat fine for his criminal act, plus a hefty towing and storage fee.
And what make and model car do YOU drive?
7-11 IS BACK
Quote from: logical on March 09, 2012, 10:48:42 PM
Quote from: cline on February 08, 2012, 09:03:59 AM
Quote from: logical on February 05, 2012, 08:31:44 PM
7-11 didn't like its developer's plans. Now it's two stories, with a 7-11 on the bottom floor and an internet cafe on the 2nd floor.
Where did you hear this?
*******************************************************************************************
This response is to the post just above, NOT to Logical's previous post (hit the wrong 'quote') 8)
You say there is a similar sized property almost across the street (from the Shell Station) and the asking price is $1.9 mil. Well that property is only 6,900 s.f. versus the Shell property of about 12,500 s.f. AND your "similar sized property" is almost two blocks South of the Shell property, near the end of the shops strip.
You say you like the 'free parking'. You obviously didn't read or ignored the posted NO TRESPASSING signs with applicable Florida Statutes displayed on the signs. Well, I did see the signs and am familiar with the Statutes. Anybody can be arrested for just being on the property. The owner appears to have been a 'nice' neighbor by not booting the parkers a long time ago. I choose to respect the owner's posted signage.
I enjoyed watching the smart aleck guy who parked in front of the middle bay, then give the owner the f____r when told to move his pretty, pretty BMW, get arrested by the JSO when he came back to his car, and hauled off to the pokey. It was also quite enjoyable seeing his precious BMW towed off. I'll bet he doesn't park there anymore. His payoff ?? Time to cool off "downtown", a criminal record, a fat fine for his criminal act, plus a hefty towing and storage fee.
And what make and model car do YOU drive?
7-11 IS BACK
I don't have a BMW, and I'd have to call B.S. on your having anyone sent to jail for a parking violation, though I'm sure it makes for quite a nice story. As for the 7-11, it's not back, they walked. That property is 0 square feet, it's a tear down and scratch build situation, comparing something that would actually be more valuable if it were a vacant lot to existing structures of any size (that come complete with operating businesses and a 4COP liquor license) continues to make my point for me. The price is absurd.
Hey, I'm not the owner, and didn't even imply that you (I have no idea who you are) own a BMW or were the driver. If you think the trespass, etc., is B.S., go to the property, write down the Statutes and check them out. I did, and know that anyone going on the property for any reason can be arrested WITHOUT any owner being present.
And you say the property is "zero" and has only value as an empty lot. By the tone of your post, must have hit a nerve. The Shell property is and will always be 12,500 s.f. smack dab in the middle of the shops strip...it is THE prime property. That $1.9 million "for sale" price way down the street is a dead dog. It is not even worth the mortgage on the property. The owner is so far underwater he will need a gas hose to get air, but for sure no buyer would touch the $1.9 mil. asking price.
And Carnac the Magnificent's answer? Well, the question he will answer is "Who will eat his words?'
Do you want fries with that? 8)
Quote from: logical on March 10, 2012, 07:14:40 PM
Hey, I'm not the owner, and didn't even imply that you (I have no idea who you are) own a BMW or were the driver. If you think the trespass, etc., is B.S., go to the property, write down the Statutes and check them out. I did, and know that anyone going on the property for any reason can be arrested WITHOUT any owner being present.
And you say the property is "zero" and has only value as an empty lot. By the tone of your post, must have hit a nerve. The Shell property is and will always be 12,500 s.f. smack dab in the middle of the shops strip...it is THE prime property. That $1.9 million "for sale" price way down the street is a dead dog. It is not even worth the mortgage on the property. The owner is so far underwater he will need a gas hose to get air, but for sure no buyer would touch the $1.9 mil. asking price.
And Carnac the Magnificent's answer? Well, the question he will answer is "Who will eat his words?'
Do you want fries with that? 8)
No trespassing signs aren't sufficient to tow a vehicle, you have to have specialized signage listing the name, license number, and contact information of the towing operator, among other things. And FWIW there aren't no trespassing signs on that property either. Again, I'm calling B.S. that you had anyone arrested for a parking violation. As far as hitting a nerve, your reacting with fictional B.S. about having people arrested for parking violations would seem to demonstrate the black hole is calling the kettle black.
As far as what you never implied, that's just more B.S.;
Quote from: logical on March 09, 2012, 10:48:42 PM
And what make and model car do YOU drive?
That's the thing about message boards, your words stay there even when they're no longer convenient.
A couple of things I know for sure: (1) I am not the owner. (2) You say there are "[sic]...No, 'NO TRESPASSING' signs on the property..." For a few years I have seen 4 such signs facing St. Johns Avenue AND Ingleside. I may go to The Brick this week, and bet the signs are still there, unless you knocked them down when you parked for free. And why did you choose to not respond to your property not being "almost across the street and of similar size [as the Shell property], when neither is true ?
The owner of the Shell property is doing the other shop owners a huge favor by not booting the parkers, but you don't seem to appreciate that fact. I also have seen on that property: decorated Christmas trees; a snow slide for the kids; and other seasonal decorations. But you prefer to ignore that generousness and write things that are not so. Shame on you. 8)
I don't usually get involved in Chris' squabbles, but 'logical' (oh the irony) there are a few common forum courtesies that you generally lack.
-First, if you have a relationship with the owner of the shell property or the property itself, you should declare it. Even if it is 'he's an acquaintance'. It's better to admit it than to have it be found out later. A hidden agenda never helps one's argument.
-Second, if you have no relationship with the property or the owner, you're just a mean spirited individual who needs to get a life. Quit with the personal attacks and just stick to the issue at hand. If you do actually know anything at all about the shell property, talk about that and not your vendetta against Chris.
Quote
Quote from: logical on March 09, 2012, 10:48:42 PM
And what make and model car do YOU drive?
Seriously?? You have nothing better to do than sit around and hope Chris' car gets towed (which it can't, btw, he is right on this issue). Also your whole holier than thou attitude is really off-putting. Congrats that you don't park on the Shell property, neither do thousands of other patrons to the Shoppes. You don't see them looking for an 'attaboy' or a pat on the back, do you?
Finally, what's a f____r??
Quotesmart aleck guy who parked in front of the middle bay, then give the owner the f____r when told to move his pretty, pretty BMW
Did he give him the fuhrer, the fryer, the fibber, the fastener, the folder, the flier, the forum-er, or heaven forbid and pardon my french the FINGER????? If you're so worked up over the matter that you have to resort to words that you won't even allow yourself to type, you need to calm down, drink another vodka tonic, and let it go. This is a forum to discuss urban issues, not for you to slander people you don't even know. Calm down Ned Flanders.
That said, hopefully a more civilized discourse can ensue.
Personal attacks ?? I have made no "personal attacks" to whomever. I responded to "Chris' false information about the $1.9 property "[sic] being almost across the street...and the same size as the Shell property" (Chris' words). Chris, whoever he is (I do not know or care) is the one who started firing personal attacks by more than inferrring I lied about a tow I witnessed. Go back and read my first response to his false information. Where is the personal attack you accuse me of making...it is not there.
What also is not there is an admission by Chris that he is wrong about the location and size of his property, the main theme of my earlier post.
I do not want Chris' or anyone's car towed. My question about the make and model of his car was a poke, nothing more...but you know that, and you also know the word for f____r, especially in the context of the comment. Pardon my attempt to avoid improper language in what is supposed to be a disussion forum.
Concerning ownership of the Shell property, I genuinely do not care. I still give him-or her-or them-or it- -kudos for being a good neighbor.
And do you want fries with that ? 8)
Quote from: logical on March 12, 2012, 11:25:02 AM
Personal attacks ?? I have made no "personal attacks" to whomever. I responded to "Chris' false information about the $1.9 property "[sic] being almost across the street...and the same size as the Shell property" (Chris' words). Chris, whoever he is (I do not know or care) is the one who started firing personal attacks by more than inferrring I lied about a tow I witnessed. Go back and read my first response to his false information. Where is the personal attack you accuse me of making...it is not there.
What also is not there is an admission by Chris that he is wrong about the location and size of his property, the main theme of my earlier post.
I do not want Chris' or anyone's car towed. My question about the make and model of his car was a poke, nothing more...but you know that, and you also know the word for f____r, especially in the context of the comment. Pardon my attempt to avoid improper language in what is supposed to be a disussion forum.
Concerning ownership of the Shell property, I genuinely do not care. I still give him-or her-or them-or it- -kudos for being a good neighbor.
And do you want fries with that ? 8)
There is no false information, go look up the Monty's listing on MLS.
You're trying to poke at the "same size" thing, and I made that comment back when the 7-11 would have been a single-story building, the design was supposedly modified only AFTER I'd written that. I'm not a liar because something changed after I wrote my comment, you know. It doesn't work that way I'm afraid. Or why don't we compare the shell station now as it sits to the monty's listing. If you go by reality, instead of fiction and future conceptual drawings, then the comparable I pointed out is LARGER not smaller. And yes, it is indeed almost directly across the street. Couple hundred feet west at most.
Not sure what you're getting at here? You clearly have some kind of personal involvement. But I hate to break it to you, all the vitriolic message board snark in the world ain't gonna make that overpriced goose fly. Don't shoot the messenger.
To what "comparable" do you refer? A couple hundred feet 'west' would put it on Riverside. And please point out the "vitriolic message board snark" you accuse me of committing. Maybe your friend, Captain Zissou, would be better at pointing out any "snark", because his post is loaded with the personal attacks of which he accuses me: "[sic]... mean spirited vendetta against Chris...holier than thou...not for you (me) to slander people...". I have written nothing that even comes close to his use of personal attacks.
I certainly have nothing against you. I don't know you or anything about you. Maybe you are a nice guy who just got upset by my calling you out about your misleading description of the $1.9 mil property location, and basically accusing me of lying about what I saw.
If you are the owner of the $1.9 mil property, I hope you get your asking price. Doing so would make a bunch of Shoppes property owners very happy as they see the values of their properties climb significantly.
And do you want fries with that? 8)
The gentleman who owns the Shell station is leasing the empty lot to the employees of The Brick and 'Town. They are ALLOWED to park there everyday. Occasionally a customer will park there also if they get lucky.
Quote from: logical on March 12, 2012, 07:35:03 PM
To what "comparable" do you refer? A couple hundred feet 'west' would put it on Riverside. And please point out the "vitriolic message board snark" you accuse me of committing. Maybe your friend, Captain Zissou, would be better at pointing out any "snark", because his post is loaded with the personal attacks of which he accuses me: "[sic]... mean spirited vendetta against Chris...holier than thou...not for you (me) to slander people...". I have written nothing that even comes close to his use of personal attacks.
I certainly have nothing against you. I don't know you or anything about you. Maybe you are a nice guy who just got upset by my calling you out about your misleading description of the $1.9 mil property location, and basically accusing me of lying about what I saw.
If you are the owner of the $1.9 mil property, I hope you get your asking price. Doing so would make a bunch of Shoppes property owners very happy as they see the values of their properties climb significantly.
And do you want fries with that? 8)
This is getting ridiculous.
If you want to use the "if I accuse them of doing what I'm doing before they point out I'm doing it" strategy, you generally have to use that BEFORE everybody and their cousin calls you out for it. Your timing is off on this one. Secondly, I've said a bunch of times in this thread, the listing I was referring to is Monty's.
I'm starting to wonder if this elevator goes all the way to the top.
Quote from: undergroundgourmet on March 12, 2012, 08:28:16 PM
The gentleman who owns the Shell station is leasing the empty lot to the employees of The Brick and 'Town. They are ALLOWED to park there everyday. Occasionally a customer will park there also if they get lucky.
Wait, so after all of logical's fabricated hogwash about having people arrested or having their cars towed for parking there (nevermind that this isn't even possible), it turns out that the owner is actually renting the thing out for parking. Ouch, logical, that's got to be embarassing.
Embarassing ?? It makes no sense to be embarassed about any alleged arrangement between business owners. If that is true, good for the businesses and their employees. "Embarassing" is trying to justify an asking price of $1.9 mil on a property that is not worth its mortgage.
And do you want fries with that? 8)
Quote from: logical on March 12, 2012, 10:02:35 PM
Embarassing ?? It makes no sense to be embarassed about any alleged arrangement between business owners. If that is true, good for the businesses and their employees. "Embarassing" is trying to justify an asking price of $1.9 mil on a property that is not worth its mortgage.
And do you want fries with that? 8)
LOL
Serious Question for those who know, did the Florida Department of EPA issue a "NO FURTHER ACTION" Letter with regard to the property, meaning that no matter who takes possession, they will not be required to perform further remediation on the property? If there is no such letter, only a big corporation can afford the remediation of the property. If there is a letter, well, I still don't see an individual plunking down that much coin for the property with a good chunk of change remaining for building the new structure.
Many of my friends who grew up here remember seeing the Shell when it was operational and back then, it was OK to dump chemicals into the ground, no one really sent the RAP police after you, so there is really no telling what else lies buried in the dirt around the building and other areas. I am sure the environmental study will be 1) an expensive one, and 2) a very telling one on the property.
Too bad 7-11 pulled out, at least temporarily, we really could use a quick magic market for milk, bread, and other quick items that you can pickup as you leave one of the restaurants to take home.
Please read my post #111 on page 8, the bottom paragraph. I have a very close relative who is in the environmental field, with advanced degrees. He knows everything about contaminated property, regs, remediation, etc. I have heard so many "horror" stories from him that I learned way more about rules and procedures than I care to remember.
The cleanup is done. I was there when the tanks, etc., and a huge amount of soil was removed and replaced. The regulating department in Florida is the Department of Environmental Regulation (DER), not the EPA. RAP is out of the loop completely.
When I wore a younger man's clothes, the Shell station was "Seagraves"...an old style building, no canopy, and the only towing truck within pointing distance. The Seagraves family has a long westside history, and is still around. The grand daughter (?) maybe "great" owns Pier 17 over on Lakeside Dr.
Sometime in the early 60s, I think, the current Shell station building replaced the old building. I used to buy gas there in high school and after, and remember seeing a photo of "the really old station" with two men standing next to two gravity pumps. The younger man had one strap of his overalls hanging down, no shoes and 1 1/2 arms. The older man had overalls, and the ground was crushed limestone. Somebody told me that the property had been a gas station since the late 20s.
Now to your inquiries...when there is contamination on a property and the contaminant is known...in the Shell's case, gasoline (hydrocarbons [?]), the ground water is tested for "that" contaminant, not for a host of all other possible contaminants. When the tests show a contamination level above a minimum ppb (parts per billion) the property comes under the watchdog of the State D.E.R.
Often, a contaminated site qualifies under a State program wherein State money may be available to assist in the cleanup, but access to that money goes to the "worst first" properties. Typically, gasoline-contaminated-property is too low in line to ever qualify for any $$. Other contaminated sites with, for example, PCBs, arsenic, etc., abound.
After the contaminated soil is removed and replaced, as was done on the Shell property, there comes a lengthy period of monitoring by way of several monitoring wells both on the property and off the property in the direction of the flow of the 'plume' (the area of contamination referred to as "The Dig" in engineering terms). When the tests show the soil is clean (over two or more consecutive quarters), the State may issue a "No Further Action [NFA]" letter. "Clean" is defined generally as the contaminants are below a minimum ppb level.
I remember seeing a man several months ago, maybe more than a year...I don't recall exactly...taking test water from several monitoring wells across St. Johns Avenue. I assumed he had already done the same with monitoring wells on the property, or was going to do so. Later, after "The Dig" was covered by a large quantity of rocks and graded to eliminate what had become a very large mud bog, another big monitoring well showed up smack in the middle of "The Dig". I assumed the well was required maybe as a final phase of testing to qualify for a NFA letter. Anyway, that well is still there and is easily seen by its large cement crown around the well head.
My guess is the State issued a NFA because it has been a long time since that last well was installed. As for other possible contaminants being present in the ground, a prospective buyer could easily use the existing monitoring wells, assuming they are still there, to test for whatever. But if it is true that the Shell station has been a gas station for 70 or 80 years, there is no compelling reason to suspect more contamination.
So, a prospective buyer might take a few samples as a matter of policy, but all of the test results would be available from the seller, the State D.E.R. or the engineer company which did the cleanup, for the buyer to see.
Way back, when The Dig took place, I was told by someone who knew the owner(s) that he/she/they decided to clean up the contamination, i.e., do the 'remediation' and pay for it themselves, and that he/she/they would not sell the property in its contaminated state, even though there had been offers made approaching $2 million. But then the crash in '08 happened, and the real estate bottom fell out.
And do you want fries with that? 8)
^I hope you think anyone is actually going to read that
Quote from: logical on March 13, 2012, 10:29:52 PM
Please read my post #111 on page 8, the bottom paragraph. I have a very close relative who is in the environmental field, with advanced degrees. He knows everything about contaminated property, regs, remediation, etc. I have heard so many "horror" stories from him that I learned way more about rules and procedures than I care to remember.
The cleanup is done. I was there when the tanks, etc., and a huge amount of soil was removed and replaced. The regulating department in Florida is the Department of Environmental Regulation (DER), not the EPA. RAP is out of the loop completely.
When I wore a younger man's clothes, the Shell station was "Seagraves"...an old style building, no canopy, and the only towing truck within pointing distance. The Seagraves family has a long westside history, and is still around. The grand daughter (?) maybe "great" owns Pier 17 over on Lakeside Dr.
Sometime in the early 60s, I think, the current Shell station building replaced the old building. I used to buy gas there in high school and after, and remember seeing a photo of "the really old station" with two men standing next to two gravity pumps. The younger man had one strap of his overalls hanging down, no shoes and 1 1/2 arms. The older man had overalls, and the ground was crushed limestone. Somebody told me that the property had been a gas station since the late 20s.
Now to your inquiries...when there is contamination on a property and the contaminant is known...in the Shell's case, gasoline (hydrocarbons [?]), the ground water is tested for "that" contaminant, not for a host of all other possible contaminants. When the tests show a contamination level above a minimum ppb (parts per billion) the property comes under the watchdog of the State D.E.R.
Often, a contaminated site qualifies under a State program wherein State money may be available to assist in the cleanup, but access to that money goes to the "worst first" properties. Typically, gasoline-contaminated-property is too low in line to ever qualify for any $$. Other contaminated sites with, for example, PCBs, arsenic, etc., abound.
After the contaminated soil is removed and replaced, as was done on the Shell property, there comes a lengthy period of monitoring by way of several monitoring wells both on the property and off the property in the direction of the flow of the 'plume' (the area of contamination referred to as "The Dig" in engineering terms). When the tests show the soil is clean (over two or more consecutive quarters), the State may issue a "No Further Action [NFA]" letter. "Clean" is defined generally as the contaminants are below a minimum ppb level.
I remember seeing a man several months ago, maybe more than a year...I don't recall exactly...taking test water from several monitoring wells across St. Johns Avenue. I assumed he had already done the same with monitoring wells on the property, or was going to do so. Later, after "The Dig" was covered by a large quantity of rocks and graded to eliminate what had become a very large mud bog, another big monitoring well showed up smack in the middle of "The Dig". I assumed the well was required maybe as a final phase of testing to qualify for a NFA letter. Anyway, that well is still there and is easily seen by its large cement crown around the well head.
My guess is the State issued a NFA because it has been a long time since that last well was installed. As for other possible contaminants being present in the ground, a prospective buyer could easily use the existing monitoring wells, assuming they are still there, to test for whatever. But if it is true that the Shell station has been a gas station for 70 or 80 years, there is no compelling reason to suspect more contamination.
So, a prospective buyer might take a few samples as a matter of policy, but all of the test results would be available from the seller, the State D.E.R. or the engineer company which did the cleanup, for the buyer to see.
Way back, when The Dig took place, I was told by someone who knew the owner(s) that he/she/they decided to clean up the contamination, i.e., do the 'remediation' and pay for it themselves, and that he/she/they would not sell the property in its contaminated state, even though there had been offers made approaching $2 million. But then the crash in '08 happened, and the real estate bottom fell out.
And do you want fries with that? 8)
They cleaned it up not as a 'gift' to the next owner, but because A: It wouldn't qualify for financing without a NFA notice, and B: Due to A, and due to any cash buyer wanting to know their actual costs, they could get more $$$ for it that way. You make it sound as though they were doing their civic duty rather than trying to wring the most money out of it. The sole reason the thing didn't sell, then, now, or anytime soon, is the price.
Logical's long post was a little off but mostly correct.
Logical? Is it a coherent North Miami? :-X
Thank you Kaiser. "mtraininjax" made some interesting points in his/her post. I thought a bit of history about the Shell property and the NFA process would be appreciated by folks who read her post. By the way, "mtraininjax", if you want to know if a NFA letter exists, you might call the broker. I think his phone number is on the For Sale sign in front of the station, but I do not remember his name. He would know for sure. I would bet the farm that there was a NFA letter issued months ago.
But good ole' "Gator" seizes on one sentence in my last paragraph to vent his anger over the fact that I called him out about his "location" and size of his (?) property for sale at $1.9 mil. I wonder if he would come down from his 'asking' price for a cash sale of, say, $1 mil. Probably not...so...
...Chris reminds me of the traveler in the Eagles' classic rock song, "Hotel California", where the night clerk says to the traveler, "You may check out any time you like, but you can never leave".
At $1.9 mil, that quote describes Chris as he sits at his bar for the rest of his life, long after the Shell station sells, waiting for $1.9 mil to walk in.
For Chris...And do you want fries with that? 8)
You should note that simply because an NFA letter exists, if new contamination is discovered, FDEP can require additional remediation. Stat funding is only available for petroleum sites and dry cleaning facilities (in certain circumstances).
Doesn't Monty's include a liquor license? Believed you can fetch around $250K for the liquor license if it is sold.
Gators 312...Sorry, I don't understand your question.
Quote from: Gators312 on March 14, 2012, 09:54:47 AM
Logical? Is it a coherent North Miami? :-X
I was thinking the same exact thing.
For Logical: The fastest way to show your ignorance is to assume you are the smartest person in the room. The people on this forum are letting you get away with a lot, because every few paragraphs or so you say something informative. I don't know why you choose to use the rest of your posts to try and insult the other people on this forum. We are all here to learn, not get in the pissing contests that you seem to enjoy so much.
Lately I've been thinking about the old poker saying "If you can't spot the sucker at the table, it's you". I think the opposite is also true: "If you think everyone else at the table is a sucker, it's probably you".
For Captain: and the point of you jumping in again is, what, to be informative? In your two posts (on behalf of your friend, Chris), you have called me "mean spirited...having a vendetta against Chris...being holier than thou,...slandering people...and being a sucker...[plus one of Chris' gems: a vitriolic message board snark...]". Those words are posted and they speak volumes about your and Chris' purpose...certainly not to be informative
And when I write a response that is 100% informative (to 'mtraininjax), your friend, Chris, can't resist seizing on one sentence and making up something out of nothing.
[Thank you 'stephendare' for your kind remarks. You gave me a refreshing pause.]
And do you want fries with that? 8)
Quote from: Captain Zissou on March 14, 2012, 11:23:49 AM
Quote from: Gators312 on March 14, 2012, 09:54:47 AM
Logical? Is it a coherent North Miami? :-X
I was thinking the same exact thing.
14 pages......think more!!Or less.
Thinking more or less about the $1.9 tag-likely not an incoherent decision,but perhaps arrived at as the result of a nudge,assumptions.
N.M.
Quote from: Know Growth on March 21, 2012, 10:43:21 PM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on March 14, 2012, 11:23:49 AM
Quote from: Gators312 on March 14, 2012, 09:54:47 AM
Logical? Is it a coherent North Miami? :-X
I was thinking the same exact thing.
14 pages......think more!!Or less.
Thinking,guessing more or less about the $1.9 tag-likely not an incoherent decision,but perhaps arrived at as the result of a nudge,assumptions.
Could it be that the owners owe a significant amount on the property?Just a wild azzz wonder,amount owed can lead otherwise coherent owners to over price.
N.M.
QuoteMy guess is the State issued a NFA because it has been a long time since that last well was installed.
Logical, I have first hand knowledge at how the State works. One of our buildings is located on the old City dump site, from the 40s where the City would borrow out 10 foot tracts and dump household garbage in these tracts. They are here on the Southside and the city has washed their hands of it, like many things.
So in about 1950, an auto-plating company came along and decided to build a concrete block structure and then proceed to build a drainage pond in the back of the property. The pond contains affluents of Nickel and Cadmium and there have been wells dug since the 1970s on the property where the state has been monitoring the runoff. The state still reviews this, even as the landlord has taken soil out that has been contaminated.
Our company has been the tenant on this space for over 10 years, we have not disturbed the land, or removed anything from the area, yet the Auto plating plant is now owned by a Fortune 500 company and the State cannot or will not get the company to clean the property to the level of getting the No Further Action letter. We will not buy the property without it, because as our attorney has stated, without an NFA letter, the State can come back and mandate that you clean the property, using any means they deem necessary. Forget just digging up the dirt, you may have to dig it up, burn it, then recycle it which would make it the most expensive property on the southside.
I do not have any intention of buying the Shell Station, my intent was to make anyone who was interested aware that if there is no NFA on the property, run like hell away from it, cause even though the tanks were taken out, and dirt of some sort put back, who knows what still lurks under the structure, behind in the alley, you really need to make sure, as an owner, that the environmental analysis contains that letter for proper CYA. Good points though and great topic!
Quote from: mtraininjax on March 22, 2012, 03:46:19 PM
QuoteMy guess is the State issued a NFA because it has been a long time since that last well was installed.
I do not have any intention of buying the Shell Station, my intent was to make anyone who was interested aware that if there is no NFA on the property, run like hell away from it, cause even though the tanks were taken out, and dirt of some sort put back, who knows what still lurks under the structure, behind in the alley, you really need to make sure, as an owner, that the environmental analysis contains that letter for proper CYA. Good points though and great topic!
To: mtrainiinjax...apparently you read my post #188 because your quoted sentence came from it. So, what gives an even 'slight' hint there may not be a NFA for the Shell property? Anyone can find out for sure by calling the broker (see the sign in front of the property for his name and phone number). Again, the well installed in the middle of "The Dig" at least a year ago wasn't sunk just for the heck of it. That well had to have been required as part of the final stages to obtain a NFA letter, and I saw a company taking samples from several of the monitoring wells soon after that last well was sunk. I will bet the farm there is a NFA letter and it was likely issued by the State months ago.
You are spot on saying to readers to not touch any site with known or suspected contaminants, although there are legal avenues to buy such property and indemnify the buyers if contaminants are later found...still, doing so is not without risks.
To 'traininjax'...your quote at the end of your posts refer to ex-mayor Peyton saying "[sic}the $115 will save Jacksonville from financial ruin". I remember him saying something like that, but can't for the life of me remember for what the $115 was to have been paid. Please refresh my memory. And I like your quote of Reagan.
QuoteYou are spot on saying to readers to not touch any site with known or suspected contaminants, although there are legal avenues to buy such property and indemnify the buyers if contaminants are later found...still, doing so is not without risks.
In 1989 I had already put down a huge deposit on a big building on Powers Ave. We were doing a final inspection before closing when I noticed some tank vents on the roof. When I asked the realtor if there had been chemical tanks on the property he gave a big guilty start and wouldn't look at me again. He then admitted that a previous owner of the building had been a company that made carpet cleaning solutions.
Don't depend on your realtor to reveal this sort of thing. ASK!
Turns out the whole area was highly contaminated with all sorts of noxious chemicals, not only from the carpet solution company dumping stuff, but from a nearby printer who was dumping solvents down his drains into a septic tank.
The realtor actually refused to return my deposit at first until my lawyer called the franchise office. I knew we had dodged a nasty nightmare.
When buying property, get a phase 1 environment report done. If not that, at least go to the main library and look up the property's history on your own.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 24, 2012, 02:03:04 PM
When buying property, get a phase 1 environment report done. If not that, at least go to the main library and look up the property's history on your own.
You dodged a bullet. A buyer can still get any NFA information from the seller's broker, including the date the NFA was issued, a copy of the NFA, the property description and even the D.E.R. property identification information, including any phase 1, 2, or 3 documentation; however, if the tests were done many years ago, other contaminants may have leached onto the property from "miles" away. Groundwater, usually at levels about 6 feet and 30 feet 'down', continually moves, and will pick up contanimants as it does so.
If a business has been "the same" business for decades and test wells are in place, a quick, inexpensive phase 2 can be done. If the buyer knows the right companies or a good Environmental Engineer (one man business), the buyer can hire the testing companies direct and won't get charged an arm, leg, and his first-born for doing the tests. "Inexpensive" means do not get a lawyer involved. He/she will gladly charge $400 p/hr to have his/her para legal make the same phone calls to the same people you could deal with direct and avoid spending thousands of $$ on legal fees.
If you ultimately bought the property, I hope you got a good deal and turned it into a profitable enterprise.
And, do you want fries with that? 8)
Quote from: Dog Walker on March 24, 2012, 10:43:28 AM
QuoteYou are spot on saying to readers to not touch any site with known or suspected contaminants, although there are legal avenues to buy such property and indemnify the buyers if contaminants are later found...still, doing so is not without risks.
In 1989 I had already put down a huge deposit on a big building on Powers Ave. We were doing a final inspection before closing when I noticed some tank vents on the roof. When I asked the realtor if there had been chemical tanks on the property he gave a big guilty start and wouldn't look at me again. He then admitted that a previous owner of the building had been a company that made carpet cleaning solutions.
Don't depend on your realtor to reveal this sort of thing. ASK!
Turns out the whole area was highly contaminated with all sorts of noxious chemicals, not only from the carpet solution company dumping stuff, but from a nearby printer who was dumping solvents down his drains into a septic tank.
The realtor actually refused to return my deposit at first until my lawyer called the franchise office. I knew we had dodged a nasty nightmare.
Note to Dog Walker. Never turn over a deposit to the seller or seller's broker. At the point of putting hard money down, you have to get an attorney who will handle the closing on your behalf. Your attorney and the seller's attorney will open an account to hold all monies until closing, when your deposit, all attorney's fees and closing costs are known, the final payment is made, and the closing papers are signed by both parties. Then and only then the sale balance may be "wire transferred" to an account set up in the name of the seller, or company name of the seller. Trust but verify
Quote from: logical on March 25, 2012, 05:35:58 PM
do not get a lawyer involved. He/she will gladly charge $400 p/hr to have his/her para legal make the same phone calls to the same people you could deal with direct and avoid spending thousands of $$ on legal fees.
Quote from: logical on March 25, 2012, 05:50:01 PM
Note to Dog Walker. Never turn over a deposit to the seller or seller's broker. At the point of putting hard money down, you have to get an attorney who will handle the closing on your behalf. Your attorney and the seller's attorney will open an account to hold all monies until closing, when your deposit, all attorney's fees and closing costs are known, the final payment is made, and the closing papers are signed by both parties. Then and only then the sale balance may be "wire transferred" to an account set up in the name of the seller, or company name of the seller. Trust but verify
LOL
You really have gotta change your screen name...
In a commercial real estate transaction the rule of the road is still caveat emptor - buyer beware. Due diligence is the sine qua non in such a deal. I would not hesitate to okay making a binder deposit with a licensed real estate agent. I would never advise giving it to the seller.
Did NOT buy that property and it sat vacant for many years. Found a piece of uncontaminated land (had it tested!) not far away and built a custom designed building. Among the best moves ever. That building is still making me money and we saved a two hundred year old Live Oak in the process.
LOL
You really have gotta change your screen name...
[/quote]
_________________________________________________________________________________________
Note: the above is a quote from a post by "ChrisGator"
Chris, you now confirm you are a lawyer by showing that you have mastered 'law 101, [talking out of both sides of your mouth at the same time]'.
You take parts of two seperate posts and "quote" them as if were connected. One referred to doing a phase 2 survey for a small sum and NOT needing a lawyer, while the other referred to getting a lawyer for handling monies and transactions relating to buying/selling a property.
And you have, what, 4500 posts ?? You need to get a life.
Quote from: WmNussbaum on March 25, 2012, 09:06:13 PM
In a commercial real estate transaction the rule of the road is still caveat emptor - buyer beware. Due diligence is the sine qua non in such a deal. I would not hesitate to okay making a binder deposit with a licensed real estate agent. I would never advise giving it to the seller.
[/quote
This advice hits the bullseye...and from [I think] a person who has years of experience in the Real Estate field...a genuine professional.
And, do you want fries with that ? 8)
Quote from: Gators312 on March 14, 2012, 09:54:47 AM
Logical? Is it a coherent North Miami? :-X
No.My view stives to rise above the fray....elevation view 46+ feet
MJ Lite
Same Aroma,half the posts!
n.m.
Quote from: logical on March 26, 2012, 11:05:54 AM
Chris, you now confirm you are a lawyer by showing that you have mastered 'law 101, [talking out of both sides of your mouth at the same time]'.
You take parts of two seperate posts and "quote" them as if were connected. One referred to doing a phase 2 survey for a small sum and NOT needing a lawyer, while the other referred to getting a lawyer for handling monies and transactions relating to buying/selling a property.
And you have, what, 4500 posts ?? You need to get a life.
I quoted them because they're stupendously self-contradictory, and you posted them one right after the other. Like I said, you really need a new screename.
And we already discussed this, if you're going to use the "accuse them of doing what I'm doing before they have the chance to point out I'm doing it..." strategy, in this case talking out of both sides of your mouth, you have to pull that out BEFORE you've already been called out on it.
Once again, your timing is off.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 26, 2012, 09:54:05 PM
Quote from: logical on March 26, 2012, 11:05:54 AM
Chris, you now confirm you are a lawyer by showing that you have mastered 'law 101, [talking out of both sides of your mouth at the same time]'.
You take parts of two seperate posts and "quote" them as if were connected. One referred to doing a phase 2 survey for a small sum and NOT needing a lawyer, while the other referred to getting a lawyer for handling monies and transactions relating to buying/selling a property.
And you have, what, 4500 posts ?? You need to get a life.
I quoted them because they're stupendously self-contradictory, and you posted them one right after the other. Like I said, you really need a new screename.
And we already discussed this, if you're going to use the "accuse them of doing what I'm doing before they have the chance to point out I'm doing it..." strategy, in this case talking out of both sides of your mouth, you have to pull that out BEFORE you've already been called out on it.
Once again, your timing is off.
To: Chriswufgator
I enjoy doing a battle of wits when the other person is defenseless.
And, do you want fries with that ? 8)
Quote from: logical on March 26, 2012, 11:05:54 AM
LOL
You really have gotta change your screen name...
_________________________________________________________________________________________
Note: the above is a quote from a post by "ChrisGator"
Chris, you now confirm you are a lawyer by showing that you have mastered 'law 101, [talking out of both sides of your mouth at the same time]'.
You take parts of two seperate posts and "quote" them as if were connected. One referred to doing a phase 2 survey for a small sum and NOT needing a lawyer, while the other referred to getting a lawyer for handling monies and transactions relating to buying/selling a property.
And you have, what, 4500 posts ?? You need to get a life.
Not the quickest way to make friends on this forum...
And for the rest of us trying to follow, could you please use the html shortcuts when you quote. It gets really difficult for the rest of us to know if you're quoting chris; or if you quoting chris's quote of you; or if you're quoting chris's quote of you quoting chris for posterity.
Plus when you copy and paste, you can't mistype a quote 'accidentally'.
QuoteNot the quickest way to make friends on this forum...
Probably easier to get a dog than make friends on this forum....
Quote from: mtraininjax on March 27, 2012, 04:36:47 PM
QuoteNot the quickest way to make friends on this forum...
Probably easier to get a dog than make friends on this forum....
I hear Alvin Brown has a dog.
Anyone else here that Mello Mushroom is coming to the old Shell station space on St Johns in Avondale? I heard this from two seperate sources/avondale merchants
That would be a great spot for a Mellow Mushroom.
QuoteAnyone else here that Mello Mushroom is coming to the old Shell station space on St Johns in Avondale? I heard this from two seperate sources/avondale merchants
LOL! If John wants to deal with the possible remediation and other issues still buried in the ground there, and he walked away from the location across from the Burger King on King Street, he must have one of those 3 lottery tickets purchased in Illinois, Kansas or Maryland.
John and his father turned down that space on King Street and it had more parking than this space. If you want to get an idea of the space needed by a Mellow Mushroom, go see the Southside location. They expanded that recently, that is the size they want for future stores.
Anyone else here that Mello Mushroom is coming to the old Shell station space on St Johns in Avondale? I heard this from two seperate sources/avondale merchants
That's what I was told. They are also taking over another space - so yes, it will be large, larger than Kickbacks.....oh no, who is gonna fight this one?
Quote from: mtraininjax on March 27, 2012, 04:36:47 PM
QuoteNot the quickest way to make friends on this forum...
Probably easier to get a dog than make friends on this forum....
;D
Quote from: undergroundgourmet on March 31, 2012, 06:47:19 PM
Anyone else here that Mello Mushroom is coming to the old Shell station space on St Johns in Avondale? I heard this from two seperate sources/avondale merchants
That's what I was told. They are also taking over another space - so yes, it will be large, larger than Kickbacks.....oh no, who is gonna fight this one?
Great news. RAP better start scrambling.
QuoteThat's what I was told. They are also taking over another space - so yes, it will be large, larger than Kickbacks.....oh no, who is gonna fight this one?
Take over another space, where, in Avondale? If they take over the Shell station, what does 'town think of MM taking over the space at 'town, cause that's about all they could do, unless they plan to build on the right of way that is Ingleside. I don't see them coming to Avondale, and also, the prices in Avondale are very expensive for the space they will need. Monty's is 1.8 million, includes the Liquor license, and the shell is now down under 4 million. Not sure John and his family want to spend that much, there are other better options out there.
I welcome John and his father, but really, think about it, does Avondale make sense? There is no parking, and they had more parking at the "This Old House" location on King, could have used overflow at the bank as well.
We've wanted him to take over the space at the old Harry's near the Belk's of Roosevelt Mall. Plenty of parking, a kitchen and it would take over empty space. Seems perfect, and its closer to their residences. Better location, better parking, and close to Avondale/Ortega crowd who don't want to drive to King Street for Carmine's.
Quote from: mtraininjax on March 31, 2012, 06:59:31 PM
QuoteThat's what I was told. They are also taking over another space - so yes, it will be large, larger than Kickbacks.....oh no, who is gonna fight this one?
Take over another space, where, in Avondale? If they take over the Shell station, what does 'town think of MM taking over the space at 'town, cause that's about all they could do, unless they plan to build on the right of way that is Ingleside. I don't see them coming to Avondale, and also, the prices in Avondale are very expensive for the space they will need. Monty's is 1.8 million, includes the Liquor license, and the shell is now down under 4 million. Not sure John and his family want to spend that much, there are other better options out there.
I welcome John and his father, but really, think about it, does Avondale make sense? There is no parking, and they had more parking at the "This Old House" location on King, could have used overflow at the bank as well.
We've wanted him to take over the space at the old Harry's near the Belk's of Roosevelt Mall. Plenty of parking, a kitchen and it would take over empty space. Seems perfect, and its closer to their residences. Better location, better parking, and close to Avondale/Ortega crowd who don't want to drive to King Street for Carmine's.
I agree: the Shell doesn't make sense. But I'm not sure King/Park makes sense either. Pizza is the new sushi in the area. Harry's makes sense, but hell if I'm going to trek over to 17 with Carmine's 2 blocks from my apartment (as a pure business decision, you're right, with a preexisting kitchen and parking, it's a goldmine). To be honest, 1.8 mm for Monty's is nothing compared to what a MM can pull in a given year. Food costs and franchising fees aside, they should be able to recoup those costs in 1 year.
QuoteTo be honest, 1.8 mm for Monty's is nothing compared to what a MM can pull in a given year. Food costs and franchising fees aside, they should be able to recoup those costs in 1 year.
Ben, I hear what you are saying, but if you look and see where each MM is now, look at the SPACE and the parking for each. Monty's does not have either. You would have to knock out the walls of the dentist office to really get the density, then you would piss off the merchants and RAP. Steve at Kickbacks would love to deflect the new attention to John, (sarcastically).
The existing locations do not work in Avondale. A smaller version would, but then fewer people means a longer return on the investment.
Quote from: mtraininjax on March 31, 2012, 07:54:54 PM
QuoteTo be honest, 1.8 mm for Monty's is nothing compared to what a MM can pull in a given year. Food costs and franchising fees aside, they should be able to recoup those costs in 1 year.
Ben, I hear what you are saying, but if you look and see where each MM is now, look at the SPACE and the parking for each. Monty's does not have either. You would have to knock out the walls of the dentist office to really get the density, then you would piss off the merchants and RAP. Steve at Kickbacks would love to deflect the new attention to John, (sarcastically).
The existing locations do not work in Avondale. A smaller version would, but then fewer people means a longer return on the investment.
I see what you're saying. And to a certain extent I agree. This will be an interesting one to watch.
The article in the FTU tells the story. If the MM connects to the 'n town, which can happen, and the Shell building is gutted to the walls, with no expansion build-out, the Shell building becomes 90% tables and chairs and the seating capacity jumps up significantly, plus maybe some outside, covered seating.
With the Shell property, John inherits the existing Shell parking spaces...maybe 14-16...and the on-site number could increase if RAP gives the ok. For sure, the MM won't be another Mojo's with a bunch of employees smoking in the front and back and customers parking all over the neighborhood on the river side.
John "will" run a first-class operation...count on it.
Looks like a winner for MM and the Shoppes.
8)
Shell doesn't have 14-16 spaces. The spot where the pumps were is going to used as an outdoor seating area and plaza.
QuoteValentino said he plans to convert his new Avondale site into a 200-seat neighborhood restaurant. He said he knows parking is a concern to the neighbors on the surrounding residential streets. But he says he has a plan.
“I wouldn’t commit myself financially if I thought parking an issue,†he said. “I’ve got a plan I’ve been working with [City Councilman] Jim Love on. I’m not ready to discuss it, but it makes sense.â€
full article: http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/400799/charlie-patton/2012-04-10/one-us-mellow-mushroom-give-valentino-piece-pie
One thing I do know, Avondale is going to change, and for many of us, it will be a slower community.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 10, 2012, 07:16:19 AM
One thing I do know, Avondale is going to change, and for many of us, it will be a slower community.
In what sense do you mean 'slower'? If anything, I assumed it would become a little faster paced, considering Mojo's and MM are right across the street.
Slower to drive through, perhaps. And that's not really a bad thing.
QuoteIn what sense do you mean 'slower'? If anything, I assumed it would become a little faster paced, considering Mojo's and MM are right across the street.
Slower traffic wise. I believe John and MM, this will happen, but with it, the residents and owners should really clamp down on traffic speeds as well as making the area more pedestrian friendly. Again, I would love a 20 MPH speed limit. Or at the least, make it the same speed as Atlantic Blvd at Ragtime. Perhaps we should rip out the Asphalt and replace the road with the Bricks the City used in the roundabout downtown? That would really slow people down.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 10, 2012, 10:15:56 AM
QuoteIn what sense do you mean 'slower'? If anything, I assumed it would become a little faster paced, considering Mojo's and MM are right across the street.
Slower traffic wise. I believe John and MM, this will happen, but with it, the residents and owners should really clamp down on traffic speeds as well as making the area more pedestrian friendly. Again, I would love a 20 MPH speed limit. Or at the least, make it the same speed as Atlantic Blvd at Ragtime. Perhaps we should rip out the Asphalt and replace the road with the Bricks the City used in the roundabout downtown? That would really slow people down.
Makes sense. +1 to ripping out the asphalt and replacing with bricks. Albeit most people aren't usually a fan of that option.
QuoteMakes sense. +1 to ripping out the asphalt and replacing with bricks. Albeit most people aren't usually a fan of that option.
Give it time and soon we'll see JEA digging up the street and we'll then have an excuse.
I think most residents on St. Johns would prefer traffic to be slower. There are always a ton of accidents- my parents always warn new neighbors not to park on the street.
Are there any different regulations to what the speed can be on a state highway compared to a non state road?
Use a couple of big planters to pinch the road at each end of the shoppes and in the middle that will naturally slow the traffic.
QuoteAre there any different regulations to what the speed can be on a state highway compared to a non state road?
Atlantic Blvd is a state road, but there when most of the flow bends to A1A, It may still be a state road, but the maintenance, I believe, falls on Atlantic Beach. Depending on how the Avondale Merchants want to band together, would determine how much influence they have on the neighborhood and the traffic flow. Yes, Jim Love will be important, but so will the residents who will want to have a say in how the neighborhood grows and evolves. MM is going to bring a TON of vehicles to the 'hood. You think Carmine's looks like an auto yard double-stacked, we're going to see people park as far away as Richmond Street and Herschel to get to MM on busy nights.
Why not look to close off Ingleside right there at Riverside? Why not look to put in a median, like they have on 1st street along Jax Beach into Neptune or from Neptune to Atlantic? You shut down the access to the area by car and make that area safer and simple access for Pedestrians and Bikers. Make the area in there Valet only would be even better.
I am no city planner, but we have options available to us now and I think everything should be on the table to look at creative ways to alter the flow of traffic. Move the playground equipment further down in Boone Park and open up a parking lot there, or pave/gravel space all the way from St. Johns to Herschel, add lighting,and create more parking there.
I am not a fan of needing a permit to park there, yet, but when Monty's (West End) is sold and someone uses it for what it could be, that area down there is going to need more parking as well.
QuoteUse a couple of big planters to pinch the road at each end of the shoppes and in the middle that will naturally slow the traffic.
Nah, the planters will make for nice targets for the Ambulance drivers and the crazies who are headed home at 1 AM. Then who cleans up the mess? Those plastic strip poles that you see at the corner of Gate Parkway and Town Center Blvd have already been worn down, they are a few westside 4 x 4 trucks away from being completely destroyed.
Flashing lights at either end, some motorcycle cops writing tickets, and the general sense for people to avoid the area if they are travelling through, will eventually slow down the traffic on St. Johns.