How To Design A Transportation Center
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/i-qqh74c5/0/M/DSC00421-M.jpg)
While we move forward with a spread out $180 million intermodal transportation center, Raleigh has decided to reduce their $150 million proposed center to $20 million by consolidating modes into an existing abandoned warehouse building.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-jul-how-to-design-a-transportation-center
Wow! Why can't we get city planners like that? It's bad enough we spent so much on that court house... I was in Washington DC and their Union Station is awesome! I could see the Prime Osborne returning to its former glory and if we took that 180 million instead and used elsewhere to revitalize downtown I would be sold.
Brilliant! Does Jacksonville need to save money and build a transportation hub? You bet!
Great article, and I absolutely agree! Let's use the space already offered by the Prime Osborn and prevent a sprawling transportation center. All of those millions of dollars could go to better use downtown also, while still getting a great transportation center.
You have to include a convention center plan in order to consolidate. If we can get the old courthouse site done great. If not do we really want to move all of our convention activities out to the Morocco Shrine Auditorium?
A single platform to walk all transit modes would be best.
I wonder how much money it would cost to convert Prime Osborne back to a transit center as opposed to building the JRTC as planned. If you could show that there would be substantial cost savings then I think you'd have an easier time drumming up public support for the alternative plan.
It's a shame that a third party would have to go out of their way to personally invest in a study to present an alternative option that would save the city millions. One would think the professionals in place could run with this by evaluating it in-house.
However, right off the bat, common sense would tell me I'm saving tons by not having to construct four separate building foundations on multiple blocks, parking garages, new parking aprons, and repetitive building features such as, entryways, windows, restrooms, etc. that come with developing multiple structures. From attending the inauguration last week, the PO's exhibition hall looks to be pretty solid and in great shape. There's also acres of paved parking behind it. There's no way finding a way to reuse/modify existing facilities would save taxpayers huge bucks along with creating a more efficient intermodal complex. This is something we may have to dig up extra time to do as you suggest.
Anyway, I wonder how many years would it take to drum up $180 million for what's currently proposed? After all, this thing has been talked about since at least the 1970s. My gut feeling tells me, we'll have a new convention center built well in advance of the full JRTC plan coming into implementation. Without looking into an alternative option, we'll probably spend a ton of money building Greyhound on Adams Street, then modify after the convention center moves, leaving the greyhound terminal isolated a few blocks away. The other option would be worse. In that scenario we'd find the $180 million pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and break ground on the sprawling ranch, only to discover that the convention center moves out before construction is complete, leaving a gaping vacant hole in the middle of the complex.
Yeah, you're right. You'd figure it'd be plain as day. Just seeing Raleigh's cost savings should be evidence enough. In some ways, we'd be in even better shape considering that Raleigh had to adapt an old industrial building versus having a building that was originally a train station anyways. Plus, PO has been in continuous use for a long time, so hopefully it is in fairly good shape still.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 05, 2011, 10:01:14 AM
It's a shame that a third party would have to go out of their way to personally invest in a study to present an alternative option that would save the city millions. One would think the professionals in place could run with this by evaluating it in-house.
My experience has been that frequently good ideas come from third parties because the bureaucracy is so embedded with same-ole-same-ole ways of doing things. Plus it's very likely that there is a hidden agenda to help someone make a financial gain selling to the city or develop adjacent property. Think about it.
I bet the JTA would go along if the city counsel said build it all on the Jax Terminal Property.
Does anyone remember what Jax used as a convention center before the Terminal conversion? Did we even host conventions? How many more and how much larger (attendance wise) is the convention business now vs then? Are there figures available to gauge the economic impact throughout the years? Did the Prime Osborn conversion actually augment the stature and growth of the city? Do conventions cause a sustainable gain or are they just cool to have?
Quote from: Ralph W on July 05, 2011, 11:15:37 AM
Does anyone remember what Jax used as a convention center before the Terminal conversion? Did we even host conventions? How many more and how much larger (attendance wise) is the convention business now vs then? Are there figures available to gauge the economic impact throughout the years? Did the Prime Osborn conversion actually augment the stature and growth of the city? Do conventions cause a sustainable gain or are they just cool to have?
I was wondering the same thing. Im not sure if had a covention center before the Prime Osbourne. But I am sure one of the MJ old head's can tell us (hehehehe) But I feel that conventions=people in the city=money.
If I am not mistaken, Jacksonville hosted conventions at its various hotels (e.g. Robert Meyer, George Washington, Roosevelt) and at what was then the Civic Auditorium. When I was researching the Florida Education Association around the time of the 1968 teachers strike, I remember reading that they had their convention in downtown Jacksonville and spread their presence around the various hotels...
Is there any way to get the design changed at this point, or is it all in vain? And I'm not seeing the city's justification for the current design.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 05, 2011, 10:01:14 AM
It's a shame that a third party would have to go out of their way to personally invest in a study to present an alternative option that would save the city millions. One would think the professionals in place could run with this by evaluating it in-house.
However, right off the bat, common sense would tell me I'm saving tons by not having to construct four separate building foundations on multiple blocks, parking garages, new parking aprons, and repetitive building features such as, entryways, windows, restrooms, etc. that come with developing multiple structures. From attending the inauguration last week, the PO's exhibition hall looks to be pretty solid and in great shape. There's also acres of paved parking behind it. There's no way finding a way to reuse/modify existing facilities would save taxpayers huge bucks along with creating a more efficient intermodal complex. This is something we may have to dig up extra time to do as you suggest.
And I wondered why there are so many tea part folks in this area along with a population hesitant to want to 'dump' money into somebody's pet project. The third party here seems like the only groups with any kind of moral obligation and common sense in rebuilding downtown. It does not make sense to build every project with a fail safe self destruction button. Think about the problems before they have a chance of happening.
Anyway, I wonder how many years would it take to drum up $180 million for what's currently proposed? After all, this thing has been talked about since at least the 1970s. My gut feeling tells me, we'll have a new convention center built well in advance of the full JRTC plan coming into implementation. Without looking into an alternative option, we'll probably spend a ton of money building Greyhound on Adams Street, then modify after the convention center moves, leaving the greyhound terminal isolated a few blocks away. The other option would be worse. In that scenario we'd find the $180 million pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and break ground on the sprawling ranch, only to discover that the convention center moves out before construction is complete, leaving a gaping vacant hole in the middle of the complex.
And I wondered why there are so many tea part folks in this area along with a population hesitant to want to 'dump' money into somebody's pet project. The third party here seems like the only groups with any kind of moral obligation and common sense in rebuilding downtown. It does not make sense to build every project with a fail safe self destruction button. Think about the problems before they have a chance of happening.
This transit center has been on the board since 2004 and talk abotu moving the convention center was being considered long before that. Yet here we are. Convention in the same place its always been. There's no money for a new convention center. The public (in general) would raise holy hell if the locals spent millions to build a new one (in this current economic climate). So do we just wait and see what happens? How long do we wait?
If you think about - the various transit modes are miles apart now. Instead they will be next to each other with this complex. While not perfect - better than what we've ever had before.
It's not like the new convention center's a for sure deal, either. We currently have a $60 million budget shortfall and no way to pay for the thing. And it's very unlikely that a Better Jacksonville Plan-style revenue stream is going to be feasible any time soon.
So spend $180 million on an inadequate design that is destined to fail? That doesn't make much sense either. You would be better off scaling down and making a smaller compact intermodal center (ex. like Raleigh and Detroit).
(http://www.aerialpics.com/E/rosa-parks-transit-center.jpg)
Rosa Parks Transit Center (consumes one block) - Downtown Detroit - $22 million
Whatever happened to the holy hell raising when the courthouse budget was blown out. Hue and cry for a few months, an occasional blurb now and again down the road as construction headed toward completion but resignation, acceptance and virtual silence now.
Same thing would happen with a new convention center. Big shots would have all the answers as to why Jacksonville NEEDS a convention center NOW and it needs to go HERE. Populace, led by MJ and maybe Ron Littlepage, would bring out the reasons it can't happen, shouldn't happen, HERE and NOW.
Wait a minute... we have a new mayor and a new crop of city council members. I very well could be WRONG. ;D
Again, is there anything that can be done to change the decision, or is this what's going to happen?
Yes, two things immediately come to mind.
1. The relocation of the convention center (a potential funding mechanism has been identified by the DT transition team).
2. The backing out of JRTC partners (the office is no longer the top priority, partially due to the TPO (?) backing out of their funding share)
Quote from: thelakelander on July 05, 2011, 03:11:00 PM
So spend $180 million on an inadequate design that is destined to fail? That doesn't make much sense either. You would be better off scaling down and making a smaller compact intermodal center (ex. like Raleigh and Detroit).
(http://www.aerialpics.com/E/rosa-parks-transit-center.jpg)
Rosa Parks Transit Center (consumes one block) - Downtown Detroit - $22 million
Lake - You're assuming that it will fail. But what dictates success or failure? If people use it but some MJ people don't like it - does that make it a failure?
Quote from: exnewsman on July 05, 2011, 03:39:39 PM
Lake - You're assuming that it will fail. But what dictates success or failure? If people use it but some MJ people don't like it - does that make it a failure?
It seems that you may be assuming success. What dicates success? I worry about failure for the following reasons:
1. Mass transit facilities should be designed to be pedestrian scale. It's highly questionable that forcing users to walk multiple blocks to transfer between modes is efficient, especially with Florida's climate conditions. It will also be tougher to attract the choice rider when it requires a minimum two block walk to transfer from any type of rail to other modes.
2. Failure in terms of stimulating TOD and returning multiple city blocks back to the tax rolls.
3. Failure in terms of stimulated pedestrian level vibrancy. Because the plan spreads out uses too thin, it creates multiple spaces of permanent dead zones. Something that already plagues DT and LaVilla today.
4. Failure in terms of retail success. The retail in the project will not benefit from heavy pedestrian traffic because the pedestrian traffic isn't compact and forced the move in front of the proposed retail spaces.
5. Cost. It's $180 million. JTA doesn't have any money, COJ doesn't have any money, the State is broke, yet we're developing something that will cost nearly $200 million. We can significantly reduce that cost by considering the elimination of duplication and adaptive reuse where feasible.
6. Last, there are more examples of compact intermodal centers in urban cities than sprawled out ones. Are there any successful sprawled out intermodal centers in cities with a similar density to Jacksonville? If so, what are they?
In short, we've designed a transportation center with a suburban mindset. Unfortunately, urbanism doesn't work that way.
It is just common sense also that if we eat up several blocks of land then we also lose the tax revenue that could have come from private business building on those sites. (Oops, I see I've been beaten to the punch.)
Take a look at Milwaukee's one block intermodal station. The giant glass atrium was added in 2007 for $16.9 million in order to expand the waiting room, add retail, and expand the ticketing areas for Amtrak and Greyhound.
QuoteMilwaukee Intermodal Station is a train and bus station in downtown Milwaukee, Wisconsin served by Amtrak and several intercity motorcoach operators, including Coach USA, Greyhound Lines, Jefferson Lines, Indian Trails, and Lamers. Megabus stops on Fifth Street near the station. Milwaukee County Transit System (MCTS) bus route #57 serves the station directly, and several other local bus routes operate on nearby streets.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Milwaukee-WI-March-2011/DSC0113/1231147273_Uhfvr-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Milwaukee-WI-March-2011/DSC0119/1231150705_T6j9x-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Milwaukee-WI-March-2011/DSC0122/1231153160_RPGr6-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Milwaukee-WI-March-2011/DSC0124/1231154140_tUayD-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Milwaukee-WI-March-2011/DSC0125/1231155575_kUPoV-M.jpg)
OK, there have been several threads the last few weeks on the proposed Transportation Center, and I still don't see what problem it is a solution for. I brought this up on an earlier thread and was told it would "fix" Jacksonville's poor public transportation. How? Nobody rides the Skyway, few people take Amtrak, Greyhound isn't the classiest of operations. How does having all of these modes in one spot make any of them any better? Will the ITC mean the buses will now run on time? Will the ITC make people leave their cars at home and take the train? Will the ITC make the Skyway actually go where people want to go? The whole thing should just be scrapped.
Btw, I don't raise these points in an effort to try and offend anyone personally. I do so because I want to see this thing be as successful and cost efficient as possible. The way to accomplish this is to throw everything out on the table and properly evaluate before we commit ourselves to undertaking such an expensive endeavor. At the very least, it would be wise to consider urban design and financial implications from all angles while this thing is still on paper.
Quote from: finehoe on July 05, 2011, 04:15:14 PM
OK, there have been several threads the last few weeks on the proposed Transportation Center, and I still don't see what problem it is a solution for. I brought this up on an earlier thread and was told it would "fix" Jacksonville's poor public transportation. How?
Alone it does nothing. For it to really have an impact, the entire city wide system would need to be improved and become more reliable for all users. In that sense, its just another piece to the puzzle of developing a reliable transit network.
Quote from: finehoe on July 05, 2011, 04:15:14 PM
OK, there have been several threads the last few weeks on the proposed Transportation Center, and I still don't see what problem it is a solution for. I brought this up on an earlier thread and was told it would "fix" Jacksonville's poor public transportation. How? Nobody rides the Skyway, few people take Amtrak, Greyhound isn't the classiest of operations. How does having all of these modes in one spot make any of them any better? Will the ITC mean the buses will now run on time? Will the ITC make people leave their cars at home and take the train? Will the ITC make the Skyway actually go where people want to go? The whole thing should just be scrapped.
Ok picture this. You have came to JAcksonville to visit and you know no one here. You get off your train at am"Shack" out in the middle of nowhere and you need to get DT. How do you suppose you will get there? Probably take a twenty dollar cab ride. Or if you caught bus here and need to get the train station? Everything being in one spot is a convinence factor. Not just for Jacksonville, but for all passengers. Amtrack has NO BUSINESS out there and im not sure whose bright idea that was. People hate Jacksonville because it is so spread out and logistically screwed up. And I agree. Having everything intergrated in spot, and done the right way would a PLUS for all
The Skyway went somewhere for me last night.
Drove downtown last night 1 1/2 hours before the fireworks. What a mistake. I know all about the one way streets. What a mistake. Drove past parking lots which were filling up with people with a ten spot burning a hole in their pocket. What a mistake. Went around and a round, further and further from the center of action. What a mistake. Not a parking slot on the street was available, yet people were walking from as far away as State St. By the way - What's with all those reserved spots for city vehicles?
Decided to drive back to the King St. Parking Garage. Bulls eye! Got a parking space first try. NOT for $10 bucks either - yuck, yuck.
Walked over to the Skyway station. Got out my dimes and guess what? The machine was broken and you could walk right in. Up the escalator, 6 minute wait for the car, two stops later took the escalator to the street and walked the 2 blocks to Friendship Fountain. Enjoyed the fountain and the lights - the music was a little too much like the sound of a whole car boombox. Set up our chairs on the grass with a jillion other people and sat back and enjoyed the fireworks show. It wasn't long enough and I was disappointed there was no waterfall fireworks but that's what happens when your city runs out of money. Still, it was a good show.
A 2 block walk back to the Skyway station, 50 cents in the farebox (I don't have my 10 cent senior card yet) another 6 minute wait for the car and back to the King St. station.
Looking down on all those people trying to get out of town in their cars was a hoot. Horns continuously blaring, stop and go - mostly stop. Throngs of people walking in the street kept all those with close-in parking from getting out. Reminded me of the evacuation fiasco a few years back.
My wife and I got to participate at minimal cost because we have the skyway and I could find the parking lot. A word to the wise - we have a good thing that could only be made better with the completion of the system
Quote from: duvaldude08 on July 05, 2011, 04:45:30 PM
Quote from: finehoe on July 05, 2011, 04:15:14 PM
OK, there have been several threads the last few weeks on the proposed Transportation Center, and I still don't see what problem it is a solution for. I brought this up on an earlier thread and was told it would "fix" Jacksonville's poor public transportation. How? Nobody rides the Skyway, few people take Amtrak, Greyhound isn't the classiest of operations. How does having all of these modes in one spot make any of them any better? Will the ITC mean the buses will now run on time? Will the ITC make people leave their cars at home and take the train? Will the ITC make the Skyway actually go where people want to go? The whole thing should just be scrapped.
Ok picture this. You have came to JAcksonville to visit and you know no one here. You get off your train at am"Shack" out in the middle of nowhere and you need to get DT. How do you suppose you will get there? Probably take a twenty dollar cab ride. Or if you caught bus here and need to get the train station? Everything being in one spot is a convinence factor. Not just for Jacksonville, but for all passengers. Amtrack has NO BUSINESS out there and im not sure whose bright idea that was. People hate Jacksonville because it is so spread out and logistically screwed up. And I agree. Having everything intergrated in spot, and done the right way would a PLUS for all
To be honest with you I wouldn't get out- just go somewhere better given that stop.
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on July 05, 2011, 04:54:41 PM
Quote from: duvaldude08 on July 05, 2011, 04:45:30 PM
Quote from: finehoe on July 05, 2011, 04:15:14 PM
OK, there have been several threads the last few weeks on the proposed Transportation Center, and I still don't see what problem it is a solution for. I brought this up on an earlier thread and was told it would "fix" Jacksonville's poor public transportation. How? Nobody rides the Skyway, few people take Amtrak, Greyhound isn't the classiest of operations. How does having all of these modes in one spot make any of them any better? Will the ITC mean the buses will now run on time? Will the ITC make people leave their cars at home and take the train? Will the ITC make the Skyway actually go where people want to go? The whole thing should just be scrapped.
Ok picture this. You have came to JAcksonville to visit and you know no one here. You get off your train at am"Shack" out in the middle of nowhere and you need to get DT. How do you suppose you will get there? Probably take a twenty dollar cab ride. Or if you caught bus here and need to get the train station? Everything being in one spot is a convinence factor. Not just for Jacksonville, but for all passengers. Amtrack has NO BUSINESS out there and im not sure whose bright idea that was. People hate Jacksonville because it is so spread out and logistically screwed up. And I agree. Having everything intergrated in spot, and done the right way would a PLUS for all
To be honest with you I wouldn't get out- just go somewhere better given that stop.
LOL
Quote from: finehoe on July 05, 2011, 04:15:14 PM
OK, there have been several threads the last few weeks on the proposed Transportation Center, and I still don't see what problem it is a solution for. I brought this up on an earlier thread and was told it would "fix" Jacksonville's poor public transportation. How? Nobody rides the Skyway, few people take Amtrak, Greyhound isn't the classiest of operations. How does having all of these modes in one spot make any of them any better? Will the ITC mean the buses will now run on time? Will the ITC make people leave their cars at home and take the train? Will the ITC make the Skyway actually go where people want to go? The whole thing should just be scrapped.
And why do few Jacksonville residents take Amtrak? This is for two major reasons:
1. Many people do not know that we have passenger rail service that serves Jacksonville. Because the Amtrak station is about as remote as a Callahan chicken shack, we are dealing with the old 'out of sight, out of mind' situation.
2. Those who know of Amtrak know how horrible the current facility is. Ever since 1974, Amtrak has been running out of a shed. There are no decent facilities for ground transportation, car rentals, dining or lodging. And, with many train passengers from the Northeast coming into Florida via Amtrak and vice versa, this is a really crappy first impression of have of Jacksonville - even as a stopover.
This is what is frustrating. There has been nothing but talk about this issue and very little action. And, when a solution is proposed, it ends up being a boondoggle that will likely be shot down or treated like a can to be kicked down the road another ten miles. IMHO, it is disgusting that we cannot make a simple move like shifting the Amtrak station to downtown where it would best serve our city and best serve rail passengers.
Thanks for the responses, but they read to me as reasons to relocate the Amtrak station downtown (which I wholeheartedly agree with), not as reasons to construct an "intermodal transportation center". Yes, if the Amshack was downtown it would be nice to have a 'once-stop shopping' approach, but please recognize that these are two different issues, not one and the same.
The Jacksonville Amtrak terminal had approximately 72,000 boardings and alightings in 2010. Wonder how much better it would do if it were Downtown? By the way that makes us 5th in the state 1. Sanford (Auto-train) 2. Orlando 3. Tampa 4. Miami 5. Jacksonville 6. West Palm Beach
Quote from: fsujax on July 06, 2011, 03:04:07 PM
The Jacksonville Amtrak terminal had approximately 72,000 boardings and alightings in 2010. Wonder how much better it would do if it were Downtown? By the way that makes us 5th in the state 1. Sanford (Auto-train) 2. Orlando 3. Tampa 4. Miami 5. Jacksonville 6. West Palm Beach
I had no idea. We have to get this thing moved yesterday. Stephen Dare your transition committee should make moving Amtrak downtown a top priority. Before even any changes to the convention center. Every argument for every transit proposal would be greatly improved with 72,000 people getting on and off of the train in downtown.
1. Get Amtrak downtown.
2. Get buses at the Amtrak platform.
3. Make the access to the skyway as easy as we can.
4. Streetcar keep plan moving forward.
Quote from: fsujax on July 06, 2011, 03:04:07 PM
The Jacksonville Amtrak terminal had approximately 72,000 boardings and alightings in 2010. Wonder how much better it would do if it were Downtown? By the way that makes us 5th in the state 1. Sanford (Auto-train) 2. Orlando 3. Tampa 4. Miami 5. Jacksonville 6. West Palm Beach
That sounds about right. We're usually behind the other big cities in rankings. (Except for Sanford)
Quote from: JeffreyS on July 06, 2011, 04:09:45 PM
I had no idea. We have to get this thing moved yesterday. Stephen Dare your transition committee should make moving Amtrak downtown a top priority. Before even any changes to the convention center. Every argument for every transit proposal would be greatly improved with 72,000 people getting on and off of the train in downtown.
1. Get Amtrak downtown.
2. Get buses at the Amtrak platform.
3. Make the access to the skyway as easy as we can.
4. Streetcar keep plan moving forward.
I agree with that list but still wish some tweaks will be made to the actual streetcar route.
I remember seeing a JTA drawing years ago that showed Greyhound buses parked around the Union Terminal building, sharing the waiting and ticket area inside. I heard that the Powers That Be didn't want Greyhound passengers next to the Convention Center. If we could move the CC, we could bring Greyhound where it belongs.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on July 06, 2011, 07:51:32 PM
I remember seeing a JTA drawing years ago that showed Greyhound buses parked around the Union Terminal building, sharing the waiting and ticket area inside. I heard that the Powers That Be didn't want Greyhound passengers next to the Convention Center. If we could move the CC, we could bring Greyhound where it belongs.
"Damn common sense! Full speed ahead!" ...love JTAOCKLAWAHA
Has anyone seen Denver's Union Station website? http://unionstationdenver.com/
Give me this in Downtown Jax any day.
^We did an article on Denver's Union Station last year: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-jan-union-station-neighborhood-why-not-jacksonville
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/762071284_aCsuB-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/762071065_rWZDh-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/762070933_mbya6-M.jpg)
It's a great example of what we're not doing by applying a suburban design mindset to our own layout. Every urban project, especially one as large as the JRTC, should be designed fit in with its surroundings and promote the addition of ancillary urban infill.
Quote from: comncense on July 07, 2011, 10:00:36 AM
Has anyone seen Denver's Union Station website? http://unionstationdenver.com/
Give me this in Downtown Jax any day.
After clicking the link, I was conused about the layout of it. I couldn't find a good picture of it. Then...
Quote from: thelakelander on July 07, 2011, 11:08:32 AM
^We did an article on Denver's Union Station last year: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-jan-union-station-neighborhood-why-not-jacksonville
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/762071284_aCsuB-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/762071065_rWZDh-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/762070933_mbya6-M.jpg)
It's a great example of what we're not doing by applying a suburban design mindset to our own layout. Every urban project, especially one as large as the JRTC, should be designed fit in with its surroundings and promote the addition of ancillary urban infill.
Once this was posted, I understood it. The only difference that I can see between ours and theirs is that their modes of transportation touch instead of being spread out and separated by different streets. It really wouldn't take much for JTA to redesign their transportation center to something similar like this.
^Their modes touch, the distance between the modes is significantly shorter, the overall footprint is urban and pedestrian scale (we're building retention ponds for crying out loud) at street level and they've accounted for the seamless integration of transit oriented development.
Quote from: JeffreyS on July 05, 2011, 09:35:35 AM
You have to include a convention center plan in order to consolidate. If we can get the old courthouse site done great. If not do we really want to move all of our convention activities out to the Morocco Shrine Auditorium?
A single platform to walk all transit modes would be best.
You realize Veterans' Arena was built specifically as convention/flex space, right? The Hyatt also has nearly as much convention space as the current convention center does. I really don't follow how, when we already have 3 of these facilities competing with each other in one small downtown at taxpayer expense, how closing one is somehow going to be the end of the world.
Absobloominglutely! Get Amtrack downtown and everything else about our transit system will begin to fall in place. The advantages of using Jacksonville Terminal as the node of transportation will just be too obvious to continue to be ignored.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on July 07, 2011, 01:41:47 PM
You realize Veterans' Arena was built specifically as convention/flex space, right? The Hyatt also has nearly as much convention space as the current convention center does.
Veterans as flex space gives you roughly 27,000 sf of continuous floor area to play with (page 20 of link PDF):
http://www.jaxevents.com/documents/production_guide_2010.pdf
That's about 51,000 sf smaller than the Prime Osborn's exhibition hall today.
Quote from: Ralph W on July 05, 2011, 04:48:32 PM
The Skyway went somewhere for me last night.
Drove downtown last night 1 1/2 hours before the fireworks. What a mistake. I know all about the one way streets. What a mistake. Drove past parking lots which were filling up with people with a ten spot burning a hole in their pocket. What a mistake. Went around and a round, further and further from the center of action. What a mistake. Not a parking slot on the street was available, yet people were walking from as far away as State St. By the way - What's with all those reserved spots for city vehicles?
Decided to drive back to the King St. Parking Garage. Bulls eye! Got a parking space first try. NOT for $10 bucks either - yuck, yuck.
Walked over to the Skyway station. Got out my dimes and guess what? The machine was broken and you could walk right in. Up the escalator, 6 minute wait for the car, two stops later took the escalator to the street and walked the 2 blocks to Friendship Fountain. Enjoyed the fountain and the lights - the music was a little too much like the sound of a whole car boombox. Set up our chairs on the grass with a jillion other people and sat back and enjoyed the fireworks show. It wasn't long enough and I was disappointed there was no waterfall fireworks but that's what happens when your city runs out of money. Still, it was a good show.
A 2 block walk back to the Skyway station, 50 cents in the farebox (I don't have my 10 cent senior card yet) another 6 minute wait for the car and back to the King St. station.
Looking down on all those people trying to get out of town in their cars was a hoot. Horns continuously blaring, stop and go - mostly stop. Throngs of people walking in the street kept all those with close-in parking from getting out. Reminded me of the evacuation fiasco a few years back.
My wife and I got to participate at minimal cost because we have the skyway and I could find the parking lot. A word to the wise - we have a good thing that could only be made better with the completion of the system
You're definitely right. So many more people would use that thing if it went to the surrounding neighborhoods. Oh, and about the fireworks, I went to the beach and they were really good. They lasted about 20 minutes (I think) and was very exciting. No spectacular finish though. And the traffic was just as bad. 3rd street was backed up for an hour and a half! And bikes were just everywhere! Seeing so many people on the actual beach made me happy though.