How To Design A Transportation Center

[jcjohnpaint]

And I wondered why there are so many tea part folks in this area along with a population hesitant to want to 'dump' money into somebody's pet project.  The third party here seems like the only groups with any kind of moral obligation and common sense in rebuilding downtown.  It does not make sense to build every project with a fail safe self destruction button.  Think about the problems before they have a chance of happening.   

[exnewsman]

This transit center has been on the board since 2004 and talk abotu moving the convention center was being considered long before that. Yet here we are. Convention in the same place its always been. There's no money for a new convention center. The public (in general) would raise holy hell if the locals spent millions to build a new one (in this current economic climate). So do we just wait and see what happens? How long do we wait?
If you think about - the various transit modes are miles apart now. Instead they will be next to each other with this complex. While not perfect - better than what we've ever had before.

[Tacachale]

It's not like the new convention center's a for sure deal, either. We currently have a $60 million budget shortfall and no way to pay for the thing. And it's very unlikely that a Better Jacksonville Plan-style revenue stream is going to be feasible any time soon.

[thelakelander]

So spend $180 million on an inadequate design that is destined to fail?  That doesn't make much sense either.  You would be better off scaling down and making a smaller compact intermodal center (ex. like Raleigh and Detroit).


Rosa Parks Transit Center (consumes one block) - Downtown Detroit - $22 million

[Ralph W]

Whatever happened to the holy hell raising when the courthouse budget was blown out. Hue and cry for a few months, an occasional  blurb now and again down the road as construction headed toward completion but resignation, acceptance and virtual silence now.

Same thing would happen with a new convention center. Big shots would have all the answers as to why Jacksonville NEEDS a convention center NOW and it needs to go HERE. Populace, led by MJ and maybe Ron Littlepage, would bring out the reasons it can't happen, shouldn't happen, HERE and NOW.

Wait a minute... we have a new mayor and a new crop of city council members. I very well could be WRONG.

[Tacachale]

Again, is there anything that can be done to change the decision, or is this what's going to happen?

[thelakelander]

Yes, two things immediately come to mind.

1. The relocation of the convention center (a potential funding mechanism has been identified by the DT transition team).

2. The backing out of JRTC partners (the office is no longer the top priority, partially due to the TPO (?) backing out of their funding share)

[exnewsman]

So spend $180 million on an inadequate design that is destined to fail?  That doesn't make much sense either.  You would be better off scaling down and making a smaller compact intermodal center (ex. like Raleigh and Detroit).


Rosa Parks Transit Center (consumes one block) - Downtown Detroit - $22 million

Lake - You're assuming that it will fail. But what dictates success or failure? If people use it but some MJ people don't like it - does that make it a failure?

[thelakelander]

Lake - You're assuming that it will fail. But what dictates success or failure? If people use it but some MJ people don't like it - does that make it a failure?

It seems that you may be assuming success.  What dicates success?  I worry about failure for the following reasons:

1. Mass transit facilities should be designed to be pedestrian scale.  It's highly questionable that forcing users to walk multiple blocks to transfer between modes is efficient, especially with Florida's climate conditions.  It will also be tougher to attract the choice rider when it requires a minimum two block walk to transfer from any type of rail to other modes.

2. Failure in terms of stimulating TOD and returning multiple city blocks back to the tax rolls.

3. Failure in terms of stimulated pedestrian level vibrancy.  Because the plan spreads out uses too thin, it creates multiple spaces of permanent dead zones.  Something that already plagues DT and LaVilla today.

4. Failure in terms of retail success.  The retail in the project will not benefit from heavy pedestrian traffic because the pedestrian traffic isn't compact and forced the move in front of the proposed retail spaces.

5. Cost.  It's $180 million.  JTA doesn't have any money, COJ doesn't have any money, the State is broke, yet we're developing something that will cost nearly $200 million.  We can significantly reduce that cost by considering the elimination of duplication and adaptive reuse where feasible.

6. Last, there are more examples of compact intermodal centers in urban cities than sprawled out ones.  Are there any successful sprawled out intermodal centers in cities with a similar density to Jacksonville?  If so, what are they?

In short, we've designed a transportation center with a suburban mindset.  Unfortunately, urbanism doesn't work that way.

[Fallen Buckeye]

It is just common sense also that if we eat up several blocks of land then we also lose the tax revenue that could have come from private business building on those sites.  (Oops, I see I've been beaten to the punch.)

[Lunican]

Take a look at Milwaukee's one block intermodal station. The giant glass atrium was added in 2007 for $16.9 million in order to expand the waiting room, add retail, and expand the ticketing areas for Amtrak and Greyhound.

Milwaukee Intermodal Station is a train and bus station in downtown Milwaukee, Wisconsin served by Amtrak and several intercity motorcoach operators, including Coach USA, Greyhound Lines, Jefferson Lines, Indian Trails, and Lamers. Megabus stops on Fifth Street near the station. Milwaukee County Transit System (MCTS) bus route #57 serves the station directly, and several other local bus routes operate on nearby streets.

[finehoe]

OK, there have been several threads the last few weeks on the proposed Transportation Center, and I still don't see what problem it is a solution for.  I brought this up on an earlier thread and was told it would "fix" Jacksonville's poor public transportation. How?  Nobody rides the Skyway, few people take Amtrak, Greyhound isn't the classiest of operations.  How does having all of these modes in one spot make any of them any better?  Will the ITC mean the buses will now run on time?  Will the ITC make people leave their cars at home and take the train?  Will the ITC make the Skyway actually go where people want to go?  The whole thing should just be scrapped.

[thelakelander]

Btw, I don't raise these points in an effort to try and offend anyone personally.  I do so because I want to see this thing be as successful and cost efficient as possible.  The way to accomplish this is to throw everything out on the table and properly evaluate before we commit ourselves to undertaking such an expensive endeavor.  At the very least, it would be wise to consider urban design and financial implications from all angles while this thing is still on paper. 

[thelakelander]

OK, there have been several threads the last few weeks on the proposed Transportation Center, and I still don't see what problem it is a solution for.  I brought this up on an earlier thread and was told it would "fix" Jacksonville's poor public transportation. How?

Alone it does nothing.  For it to really have an impact, the entire city wide system would need to be improved and become more reliable for all users.  In that sense, its just another piece to the puzzle of developing a reliable transit network.

[duvaldude08]

OK, there have been several threads the last few weeks on the proposed Transportation Center, and I still don't see what problem it is a solution for.  I brought this up on an earlier thread and was told it would "fix" Jacksonville's poor public transportation. How?  Nobody rides the Skyway, few people take Amtrak, Greyhound isn't the classiest of operations.  How does having all of these modes in one spot make any of them any better?  Will the ITC mean the buses will now run on time?  Will the ITC make people leave their cars at home and take the train?  Will the ITC make the Skyway actually go where people want to go?  The whole thing should just be scrapped.

Ok picture this. You have came to JAcksonville to visit and you know no one here. You get off your train at am"Shack" out in the middle of nowhere and you need to get DT. How do you suppose you will get there? Probably take a twenty dollar cab ride.  Or if you caught bus here and need to get the train station? Everything being in one spot is a convinence factor. Not just for Jacksonville, but for all passengers. Amtrack has NO BUSINESS out there and im not sure whose bright idea that was.  People hate Jacksonville because it is so spread out and logistically screwed up. And I agree. Having everything intergrated in spot, and done the right way would a PLUS for all