Metro Jacksonville

I am always amazed and amused at how creative some pastors can be as they attempt to obtain more money from their sheep.  Here are some copy/paste items from the wonderful FBC Jax Watchdog website by the tireless former FBC member who has the courage to confront various types of abuses from the powers at be.  I thought some of the MJ people might enjoy these.

The following is from a sermon by Robert Jeffress of First Baptist Church Dallas on April, 11, 2010, as he seeks funds, not for the needy and the poor, but for his $130,000,000 building project:

"There are probably some of you this morning who would, if you were honest, would say 'Pastor, I wish I were more interested in spiritual things than I am...Pastor, I wished I loved God more than I do. Frankly I don't love Him, I don't think about Him very often.' If that's true for you this morning, may I suggest to you: the greatest thing you can do for your spiritual health, would be to take a large chunk of your assets, and give them to this campaign. Just slice off a big hunk of 'em and give them to this campaign."

Here is another, from Steve Gaines, Pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church near Memphis, as he preached on January 31, 2010:

"The reason some of you can't worship God is you're stealing from Him. You cannot be intimate with someone you're stealing from....Some of you have stolen from God and paid for other things, and that means you're living in a stolen house, you're driving a stolen car, you're wearing stolen clothes, you have stolen jewelry, you're sending your kids to school with stolen money."

And another, a warning about "God's" judgement if too little is tithed, from Mac Brunson of Jacksonville's First Baptist Church, as he preached on October 10, 2010:

"I want to tell you something. You cannot convince me, that a big portion of the economic downturn in this country doesn't rest squarely on the shoulders of Christians who will not honor God with the tithe. When you come to the place in this country where only 2 to 3 percent of the people tithe that call themselves Christian, we should expect the judgment of God."

Going to Church does not make one a Christian anymore than standing in a Garage makes one an Automobile.  and Tithing as some of these Pastors suggest is nothing short of theft and imposing guilt to folks, in the name of God.

Sorry...just calling a spade a shovel  :)   $130,000,000 does not make the Pastor a Christian either. ;)

It is interesting and very sad, the kind of tactics and lengths , some of these people who deem themselves Christian will go to , to get that tithe.  I never bought into that guilt. 

Quote from: Timkin on February 27, 2011, 10:44:08 PM
Going to Church does not make one a Christian anymore than standing in a Garage makes one an Automobile.  and Tithing as some of these Pastors suggest is nothing short of theft and imposing guilt to folks, in the name of God.

Sorry...just calling a spade a shovel  :)   $130,000,000 does not make the Pastor a Christian either. ;)

It is interesting and very sad, the kind of tactics and lengths , some of these people who deem themselves Christian will go to , to get that tithe.  I never bought into that guilt. 

Nailed it again Tim...thanks..

Quote from: Timkin on February 27, 2011, 10:44:08 PM
Going to Church does not make one a Christian anymore than standing in a Garage makes one an Automobile.  and Tithing as some of these Pastors suggest is nothing short of theft and imposing guilt to folks, in the name of God.

Sorry...just calling a spade a shovel  :)   $130,000,000 does not make the Pastor a Christian either. ;)

It is interesting and very sad, the kind of tactics and lengths , some of these people who deem themselves Christian will go to , to get that tithe.  I never bought into that guilt. 

+5

-facepalm- No wonder why I don't go to any churches.

I could sworn that the way I read this topic's title was "Some church requests for titties."

-Josh

Tithes are dumb.

Oh yeah, so are churches...

Since this is an opinion thread, here's my opinion.  I believe Pastor Gaines is right, and I have to admit I have not been faithful in tithing.  The tithe, our first fruit, belongs to God. If we don't gladly give it, we are robbing God.  I think churches shouldn't even have to ask for our tithes, because we should give without being asked.  I think churches should take good care of our tithes and offerings, and I believe God will hold them accountable if they don't.  I think you should find a good church which you trust to do right with it when you entrust them with God's portion of your income, and then gladly give it.

The idea that god would want people to send a percentage of their income to a church is beyond inane.

McDonalds...
Tea Party...
Santa...

Those are the wit and soul of our human culture?!

Gee...count me out!

I'd prefer to think our human cultural experience was doused in authors, artists, and great thinkers....wait a second, then I wouldn't be describing America....

Well I trust my money with the Episcopalian church, specifically the one I attend, because I know exactly where it goes and I support that, and the church doesn't ever really ask for the money except subtly, sometimes.  Most parishioners automatically tithe at least 10% via discreet check with no questions asked or hesitations.  Of course, I'm one of the paper bill people because I'm still poor and 10% from me is not even a charitable tax exemption :)

The way the Baptist churches do it reminds me sort of how televangelists do it, but I'm sure most churches send that money on to great causes and don't pay their priests hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.  (I actually don't know if I'm being sarcastic or being serious, but hopefully the latter).

My priests are pretty poor and choose to remain so.  They devote their lives to the Church, though everyone invites them to dinner or to parties, some of them elaborate, so the priests do have fun and get to know the parishioners outside of Sunday services and weekday church related activities.  Of course, in the Episcopalian Church we also take Jesus's devotion to wine quite seriously :)

And this actually isn't meant to be a political statement, but America is the most charitable nation BY FAR and that is largely due to the fact that in this country most people still do go to church and tithe.  Churches do wonders for the world.  Faith based organizations are the same (and often funded by churches).  In Europe nobody goes to church or believes in any god anymore (except for in Alah ironically), and Europe as a whole is not nearly as giving as America (even with their liberal, humanistic tendencies).

When Katrina hit, I think it was something like 70-90% of relief volunteers came with their churches.  It may have been even higher.  Same thing with the Christmas tsunami of 2004.  Without American congregations, the world would be a much worse place!

Ok, so now we are 5th most charitable country as opposed to 1st, and only by a small margin.  Still, of the top 21 most charitable countries on Earth, only a few are in Europe.  Australia and NZ are 1st and 2nd, and Canada is right above us.  I'll concede that I guess as a percentage of our wealth we are no longer the most giving, but we are still welllll ahead of all of developed Europe except for little Ireland and a hair behind the leaders.

I still say that despite the Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury being in Europe, they are not a religious people.  That's pretty much common fact.  Half my family comes from/lives in Sweden and none of them are religious except for my mother and my uncle, both of whom married Catholics (and ftr my parents are not Catholic...they are Episcopalian because my mother did not want to be Catholic).

The only religious people in Europe nowadays are in some scattered small towns, and mostly people older than 60 years old (except I can tell you my Swedish family above 60 is not religious).  For instance, my Aunt Gunilla (who is my grandmother's youngest sibling and is 70-something) honestly thought that Jesus had a baby and travelled to India.  She probably still thinks that.  That was her summary of the Bible once.  I'm telling you, people in Europe are not religious and almost nobody under the age of 40 there with the exception of all of the Muslim immigrants is religious in the least bit.

I went to Spain for a summer once and lived with a family (went with some friends who lived with other families).  Only one family went to church routinely and none of the other families were religious at all (and this is in "heavily Catholic" Spain).

just in case some took my initial post as though I would not tithe when I attended church, of course I would.  I would not , however , buy into a "salvation by intimidation" guilt trip as one of these three examples clearly portray.

Of course a church has operating expenses.  I get that.  but I do not support the notion that a leader of a congregation is allowed to state such absurd statements, and the congregation should be submissive and empty their wallets.

If a man goes out and earns his living , he has done just that.

I have no desire whatsoever to offend anyone on this site or their religious convictions.

To say that Europe is less religious than the US or vice versa is one of those spurious arguments for which you can have no proof regardless of who in your European family goes to church or not. Religious people are religious because they have certain spiritual convictions not because they belong to one denomination or another. Among their convictions may or may not be giving 10% of their wages to charity.

BTW I would guess that if a Martian landed in America today on any Sunday morning he would think our church is really the shopping mall. We in America worship the dollar more than we worship any higher Being.  That is not to say that we are less than generous in giving to those in need, in fact it might explain why we are. 

Don't confuse religious with charitable.

I dont know how to embed, so here is a link.  If someone would pm me with how to I will update it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-VOCd7bcu0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-VOCd7bcu0)

This is how my former church was spending my tithe, on nonsense such as this.

I fled from there for many reasons and now I attend a church that gives away to other charities and organizations half of what it takes in.  All of its financial statements are posted online and I know what my paastor brings home.

There are some abuses out there, lots of them, but please don't tar an entire faith with the same brush.  There are a lot of bad things to be undone.

    Timkin, you seem to be a Christian, and the way you use the word “god” indicates that you believe that there is a god out there somewhere. And I totally agree with you about the abusive attempts of these fellows at using guilt regarding the tithe.  Some of these pastors gain confidence, realizing that those members who remain in their congregations have done so perhaps because they are somewhat tamed, and are of such a mind that they will be inclined to tolerate and submit to the occasional excessive tithing demands and the occasional pressure of guilt during the process of requesting increased tithing.  The congregation’s habit of listening in silence, of respecting the pastor’s position of being the teacher so to speak, is conveyed to the pastor, giving him the confidence, and sometimes the arrogance, to allow for the occasional abuse in tithing demands.  But of course, this is not to say, that in many cases, the funds given are not used in very charitable ways, for the benefit of many who need help.  Unfortunately, in any scenario involving money, there is opportunity for abuse. 

     There are all kinds of aspects to this religious thing.  Tithing, churches, belief in the existence of a god and the historical Jesus, the different sects, our tradition of being religious in the main, man’s spiritual aspects and needs, etc.  These aspects have been with us for centuries.

     I discovered recently a man considered to be the first serious atheist.  He is Jean Meslier, born in the Ardennes in 1664.  He was a priest, and is called the Atheist Priest.  For several years just before his death in 1729, he wrote “The Testament”, which he wished published only after his death.  He lived in Europe when the church was very powerful, and kings ruled by divine right.  Abuse from the church, the nobility and the king’s circle upon the common man was heavy. Meslier influenced Voltaire, Thomas Paine, d’Holbach, Dupuis, Thomas Jefferson, etc.  He chose not to offer the Testament to the public while alive probably because he would have been hanged or burned, as were some others who sought to speak their minds against the church. 

     The following is from page 577 of the book, where he sums up his work.  It seems relevant to these postings, even though it is from the early17th century, from a priest who perceived what was really going on in the realm of politics and religion in his era, from a priest who rebelled.   

     â€œAll these arguments are as conclusive as they can be: it is enough just to pay a little attention to the evidence.  And so it is clearly demonstrated, by all these arguments that I have put forth above, that all the religions of the world are, as I said at the beginning of this writing, only human inventions, and that everything they teach us or make us believe are only errors, illusions, lies, and impostures invented by scoffers, swindlers, and hypocrites to deceive men, or by shrewd and crafty politicians to hold men in check and do whatever they want to the ignorant people (who blindly and foolishly believe everything they are told comes from God) and claim that it is useful and expedient to make men believe in the same thing, on the pretext, as they say, that it is “necessary that the common man not know very many truths and that he believe in many falsehoods”.
     And since all these kinds of errors, illusions and impostures are the source and cause of countless evils, abuses, and viciousness in the world, and the even the tyranny, which makes so many people groan on the earth, also tries hard to hide itself under the attractive but false and detestable pretext of religion, I am very right to say that this whole hodgepodge of religions and political laws, such as there are at present, were in fact only mysteries of iniquity.”

All books are divisible into two classes: books of the hour, and the books of all time. (John Ruskin - 1865)

Quote from: danno on February 28, 2011, 07:22:26 PM
I dont know how to embed, so here is a link.  If someone would pm me with how to I will update it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-VOCd7bcu0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-VOCd7bcu0)

This is how my former church was spending my tithe, on nonsense such as this.

I fled from there for many reasons and now I attend a church that gives away to other charities and organizations half of what it takes in.  All of its financial statements are posted online and I know what my paastor brings home.

There are some abuses out there, lots of them, but please don't tar an entire faith with the same brush.  There are a lot of bad things to be undone.

OMG that is the funniest thing I have ever seen!  Wow.  After further investigating Pastor Stovall, I found out he is putting out books and holding seminars, etc etc.  Seems like he really is treating priesthood as a career, LOL.

I agree religious and charitable are two different things.  Measurably, Europe is far less of either than America.  (I believe you can look at how religious a society is by looking at church attendance...I know many people will say they are religious and don't need church to be so, but I believe attending the right church is very necessary to strengthening a real relationship with your god, whoever that may be...are you seriously going to devote time to Him on your own by yourself at home?)

I also believe (and the evidence overwhelmingly points to this) that religious people happen to be more charitable, so there is a correlation.  You can be charitable and not religious, but maybe you're neither.  If you really are religious and take the Word seriously, then you are most likely charitable.

I mean for all the atheists out there nowadays, you don't hear of atheist charities and atheist homeless centers and atheist this that or the other.  Atheists who do donate probably inadvertently donate to organizations run by a bunch of religious people or a specific religion.  FWIW, some of the most charitable nations are the wealthy Muslim majority nations (not the large, poor, or extremist nations but the developed, tolerant, wealthy nations).

Quote from: danno on February 28, 2011, 07:22:26 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-VOCd7bcu0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-VOCd7bcu0)

This is how my former church was spending my tithe, on nonsense such as this.

I fled from there for many reasons and now I attend a church that gives away to other charities and organizations half of what it takes in.  All of its financial statements are posted online and I know what my paastor brings home.

Something overlooked in this conversation is that we are so fortunate to live in a country where you are free to choose where and how you want to worship.  I have no problem with the ministry of Pastor Stoval - including his videos, books, etc.  And I have no problem with you choosing to leave because it doesn't suit your style.  But just because it doesn't suite your style, doesn't make it wrong.  I am not a member of Celebration Church but I have friends who are and they love it.  God reaches out to his children in many ways.

My $.02:

Tithing is optional, period.  BUT - The bible tells you its 10%, and your faith should actually dictate how much more or less to give.  If you've turned yourself completely over to God, then you know that He will provide, you give your tithes whether feast or famine and you don't have to worry about the rest because He will tend to His flock.  

OK, that covers about .001% of everyone out there, so for the rest of you, the church does happen to be a business.  They do count on the 10% from everyone, and they expect those who can contribute more to do so.  And they do ask for additional money for construction projects, community outreach, over-seas ministry and every little other thing the church does.  This is an above and beyond contribution.  If you consider yourself a 'Christian' and have given your heart to Jesus and you're still having a problem with tithing - I suggest you re-read my first sentence and then set up a one-on-one with your pastor and reconsider if church is actually for you.

Quote from: simms3 on March 01, 2011, 12:19:05 AM


I agree religious and charitable are two different things.  Measurably, Europe is far less of either than America.  (I believe you can look at how religious a society is by looking at church attendance...I know many people will say they are religious and don't need church to be so, but I believe attending the right church is very necessary to strengthening a real relationship with your god, whoever that may be...are you seriously going to devote time to Him on your own by yourself at home?)

I also believe (and the evidence overwhelmingly points to this) that religious people happen to be more charitable, so there is a correlation.  You can be charitable and not religious, but maybe you're neither.  If you really are religious and take the Word seriously, then you are most likely charitable.

I mean for all the atheists out there nowadays, you don't hear of atheist charities and atheist homeless centers and atheist this that or the other.  Atheists who do donate probably inadvertently donate to organizations run by a bunch of religious people or a specific religion.  FWIW, some of the most charitable nations are the wealthy Muslim majority nations (not the large, poor, or extremist nations but the developed, tolerant, wealthy nations).

This is the most ridiculous post I have read in a long time. I suggest you don't spout off things just because you have a gut feeling. If you happen to have statistics on church attendance by continent per capita, let us have it. Moreover, what church in your opinion is the right church?

I have opinions too but I don't point to them as "overwhelming evidence." For example, of all the denominations I believe the Catholic Church, the Episcopalian Church and Muslims are among the most giving but I base that on the fact that they are the predominant religions. But I don't believe they report on how much money they contribute to charitable causes. According to "Giving USA" 75% of all giving originates with individuals but there is no way to break that out into religious or non-religious donors.

http://www.pursuantmedia.com/givingusa/0510/

And what makes you think that not going to church makes you an atheist?

Quote from: simms3 on March 01, 2011, 12:19:05 AM
I agree religious and charitable are two different things.  Measurably, Europe is far less of either than America.  (I believe you can look at how religious a society is by looking at church attendance...I know many people will say they are religious and don't need church to be so, but I believe attending the right church is very necessary to strengthening a real relationship with your god, whoever that may be...are you seriously going to devote time to Him on your own by yourself at home?)

Disclaimer: I am an agnostic. I truly do respect all forms of religions. The way you explained and described above sounds like having a personal relationship with God AT home is a bad thing. It strikes a similarity in preaching.


For the rest of you, some of you have completely missed the topic here, and few of you have bring up great points. The problem in this thread is that there is not enough justification to support behind every opinions and arguments pointing to the topic.

-Josh

Religion is one of those topics ,where, pretty much everyone has a different viewpoint, which is why I stated , I made no comment in this thread with the intent of deliberately offending anyone. This topic is very touchy and it would, I would imagine be easy to "step on toes" , which I personally have no desire to do.   For me personally , Tithing would be what I honestly feel I can afford to do.  But that is just me.

I happen to believe you do not have to attend Church to believe in or serve God, and that giving to charity, or giving money to a homeless person, or donating clothing , food ,etc to others is the same or better than Tithing.  That is NOT to say that I think going to Church, or tithing is a bad thing...to each their own. When it becomes "expected" to dole out money that one really does not have  with the notion presented that "god will provide" , I'm afraid I do not agree.   There are people out in the world that have never heard of or have seen a church , never laid eyes on a bible , live in the poorest of conditions. How can they live by ,something that was never taught to them , let alone give, when they have absolutely nothing to give. By contrast, the poorest of any of us , live like kings compared to some of those people.    I feel there are true "believers" out there and there are plenty, what the bible itself refers to as " false Prophets"  and the examples, as set forth in this thread's original post, to me at least, falls to the latter.  I have no problem whatsoever with tithing or charity and I personally feel that I do give what I can afford to ,to both.. but some "leaders" of Churches are as corrupt as any corrupt Politician ever thought of being, and would inflict guilt and pressure on a congregation that is not fair OR necessary and have no guilt whatsoever in doing so.

This whole thread is offensive and it was no accident it was started on a Sunday. I wasn't going to post, but couldnt help myself. Believe it or not there are some of us on this site who love the urban core as much as anyone and yes we do go to church and tithe (gasp!!). How could that be????? and just to clarify tithing does not equal Salvation!

I think churches should be taxed like any other business....it is a business reguardless of what anyone says...

Quote from: Garden guy on March 01, 2011, 01:46:32 PM
I think churches should be taxed like any other business....it is a business reguardless of what anyone says...

This is one of the rare moments GG and I agree. 

Just like legalized marijuana - tax the sh*t out of it/them.

Quote from: fsujax on March 01, 2011, 01:19:33 PM
This whole thread is offensive and it was no accident it was started on a Sunday. I wasn't going to post, but couldnt help myself. Believe it or not there are some of us on this site who love the urban core as much as anyone and yes we do go to church and tithe (gasp!!). How could that be????? and just to clarify tithing does not equal Salvation!

"All thinking men are atheists"

One of the better Hemingway quotes...ever.

We also have lost the idea that the church is the people.... Not a building with 4 walls.

Stephen:  Naive.  . 

Danno:  Another lost idea is that the gov't is for and by.

Quote from: stephendare on March 01, 2011, 02:34:55 PM

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on March 01, 2011, 02:23:06 PM
Stephen:  Naive.  . 

Danno:  Another lost idea is that the gov't is for and by.

yes.  that's me,  Naive.

Redneck, tell me, have you actually read the New Testament?

Just your comment. 

I have not read the New Testament from start to finish.  I have been forced to learn bits and pieces during my childhood.  I do find it to be a great collection of stories following the life of Jesus, especially the different viewponts of the gospels, but Stephen, they are nothing more to me than a collection of stories.  Aesop wrote a nice collection of stories, too.  But I don't beleive that a fox or a duck will lead me to a better place when I leave this world any more than a great speaker of the past.

Quote from: stephendare on March 01, 2011, 03:04:14 PM
They are all just part of the greater con to you arent they?

Ouchie! Quite touche there!

-Josh

 If we were to contemplate or question the validity of the idea of there being a god of some kind, or gods for that matter, who daily affect we humans as we journey through our time on earth, we might discover a pervasive and subtle factor or pressure tending to support and perpetuate a population's belief that a god does exist; and this factor is, I might suggest, the way most individuals, even those who claim to be nonbelievers, use the word "god" in conversations, in the media, in the churches, in political speeches, and in millions of other instances each day. 

      It is interesting that of the thirteen posters on this thread so far, only six used the word "god" as a believer would: Timkin, Debbie Thompson, ben says, dougskiles, non-Redneck westsider, and wsansewjs.  The remaining seven are either atheists, or closet atheists, or simply did not have occasion to use the word in the first place on their posts.  I suspect that an individual discovers he or she is an atheist when they find it awkward and difficult to use the word "god" in the manner above; preferring to say: "a god of this or that", or "the idea of a god... ", or "It is their god who", etc.
 
     The very use of the word "god" in the manner of: "God says ...", or "The bible says God ..", or "I believe that God will..", or "By the grace of God..." etc., indicates a believer in "God", and strengthens the general acceptance of claims that a god actually exists.  Because we hear or read similar phrases several times each day, they serve as constant daily reminders of the god of the Christians, reinforcing the habit of believing that a god does exist, a habit passed from generation to generation for two thousand years for the Christian god, and for perhaps millions of years for the earlier gods. 
   
     In any case the believer's use of the word "god", even though in reality there may or may not be a god in our midst, certainly "promotes" the belief in the god of the Christians, and "perpetuates" this belief, whether it is true or not, and in spite of there not being, at least to my knowledge, a shred of evidence to support it.

Some books are undeservedly forgotten; none are undeservedly remembered. W. H. Auden 1962         

Quote from: Garden guy on March 01, 2011, 01:46:32 PM
I think churches should be taxed like any other business....it is a business reguardless of what anyone says...

I agree Garden Guy, right up there with taxing the Masons, Historical Societies, Bridge Clubs, museums, private schools, colleges and universities, GARDEN CLUBS, art societies, music conservatory's, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, Brownies, parks and library's.

...That and Spell Check says it's: r e g a r d l e s s.

Quote from: ben says on March 01, 2011, 01:59:47 PM

Quote from: fsujax on March 01, 2011, 01:19:33 PM
Believe it or not there are some of us on this site who love the urban core as much as anyone and yes we do go to church and tithe (gasp!!). How could that be?????

"All thinking men are atheists"

One of the better Hemingway quotes...ever.

"18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

19. because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

20. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

21. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22. Professing to be wise, they became fools."

One of the better quotes from the book of Romans... ever.

Quote from: Cricket on February 28, 2011, 06:29:34 PM
To say that Europe is less religious than the US or vice versa is one of those spurious arguments for which you can have no proof regardless of who in your European family goes to church or not. Religious people are religious because they have certain spiritual convictions not because they belong to one denomination or another. Among their convictions may or may not be giving 10% of their wages to charity.

Actually Cricket, one of the reasons for this general belief is the age old practice of rolling the tithe and the taxes together in "State Churches," throughout Europe. It became a general practice to just claim no religion rather then step up and let the government reach in and take money from your pocket because of your religious convictions. This is one of the reasons our system was deemed superior by millions of immigrants who would then be free to donate as much or as little as they wished to any church, without dealing with the tax collector.

So are they more religious then us? Maybe so, maybe not, but they most certainly are more frugal!



I love the number of people who apparently think that some pastor invented this tithe idea, when in fact it came straight from GOD and was established as a sort of ancient welfare-food stamp program, and in addition it took care of the priests, their tribe and their families. The worked within the temple, the places of worship, and oversaw the historical and religious records, it was a calling that forbade ANY private business enterprise or ownership.

Can it be abused? CERTAINLY, hells bells one can abuse a Thanksgiving turkey, but that doesn't make Thanksgiving or the idea behind it bad. Imagine how cool society would be had we listened to Gods command and REALLY took care of the hungry, the tired, the poor. The geniuses in this country that have cashiered a perfect system now seem to live by "Give me your hungry, your tired, your poor, and I'll piss on them!"

Malachi 3:10 "Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it"

Leviticus 27:30 "'A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the LORD; it is holy to the LORD.

Numbers 18:21 "I give to the Levites all the tithes in Israel as their inheritance in return for the work they do while serving at the Tent of Meeting.

Deuteronomy 12:6 there bring your burnt offerings and sacrifices, your tithes and special gifts, what you have vowed to give and your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks.

Deuteronomy 14:22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year.

Deuteronomy 14:29 so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the aliens, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands.

2 Kings 7:2 The officer on whose arm the king was leaning said to the man of God, "Look, even if the LORD should open the floodgates of the heavens, could this happen?" "You will see it with your own eyes," answered Elisha, "but you will not eat any of it!"

2 Chronicles 31:10 and Azariah the chief priest, from the family of Zadok, answered, "Since the people began to bring their contributions to the temple of the LORD, we have had enough to eat and plenty to spare, because the LORD has blessed his people, and this great amount is left over."

Nehemiah 13:12 All Judah brought the tithes of grain, new wine and oil into the storerooms.

Psalm 78:23 Yet he gave a command to the skies above and opened the doors of the heavens;

Proverbs 3:9 Honor the LORD with your wealth, with the firstfruits of all your crops;

Ezekiel 34:26 I will bless them and the places surrounding my hill. I will send down showers in season; there will be showers of blessing.

Ezekiel 44:30 The best of all the firstfruits and of all your special gifts will belong to the priests. You are to give them the first portion of your ground meal so that a blessing may rest on your household.

Hosea 2:21 "In that day I will respond," declares the LORD--"I will respond to the skies, and they will respond to the earth;

Joel 2:19 The Lord will reply to them: "I am sending you grain, new wine and oil, enough to satisfy you fully; never again will I make you an object of scorn to the nations.

Joel 2:24 The threshing floors will be filled with grain; the vats will overflow with new wine and oil.

Haggai 2:19 Is there yet any seed left in the barn? Until now, the vine and the fig tree, the pomegranate and the olive tree have not borne fruit. "'From this day on I will bless you.'"

SOURCE: HOLY BIBLE, New International Version ©1984 by Biblica

OCKLAWAHA

I'm not sure where the 'made up by some pastor' concept came from but it was probably in the OT (see below), but you are correct in stating that it is written in the bible.  Funny thing is, Ock, it seems that we all have a price set by the Almighty as told by Moses:
Levitcus 27: 

QuoteA man between the ages of twenty and sixty is valued at fifty shekels* of silver, as measured by the sanctuary shekel. 4 A woman of that age is valued at thirty shekels* of silver. 5 A boy between the ages of five and twenty is valued at twenty shekels of silver; a girl of that age is valued at ten shekels* of silver. 6 A boy between the ages of one month and five years is valued at five shekels of silver; a girl of that age is valued at three shekels* of silver. 7 A man older than sixty is valued at fifteen shekels of silver; a woman of that age is valued at ten shekels* of silver. 8 If you desire to make such a vow but cannot afford to pay the required amount, take the person to the priest. He will determine the amount for you to pay based on what you can afford.

I don’t know about you, but it seems kinda fishy to me at verse 8 : 8 If you desire to make such a vow but cannot afford to pay the required amount, take the person to the priest. He will determine the amount for you to pay based on what you can afford.[/i]

God has many collectors, the passages are too numerous to hash out, but here’s one that might pique your interest:

Quote10 I rejoiced greatly in the Lord that at last you renewed your concern for me. Indeed, you were concerned, but you had no opportunity to show it. 11 I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. 12 I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. 13 I can do all this through him who gives me strength.
14 Yet it was good of you to share in my troubles. 15 Moreover, as you Philippians know, in the early days of your acquaintance with the gospel, when I set out from Macedonia, not one church shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving, except you only; 16 for even when I was in Thessalonica, you sent me aid more than once when I was in need. 17 Not that I desire your gifts; what I desire is that more be credited to your account. 18 I have received full payment and have more than enough. I am amply supplied, now that I have received from Epaphroditus the gifts you sent. They are a fragrant offering, an acceptable sacrifice, pleasing to God. 19 And my God will meet all your needs according to the riches of his glory in Christ Jesus.

Sorry, but to me, it sounds like an ancient form of collection service.  Even through in a little sales speak at verse 17. 

Tell me how these priests, these missionaries these servants of the Lord help me get to heaven?  They don’t.  You can give and give, but unless you have the Lord in your heart, you will have given for naught.

QuoteJohn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

QuoteI John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

QuoteMatthew 22:36-38 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with ALL thy heart, and with ALL thy soul, and with ALL thy mind. THIS is the first and great commandment.

But I guess in my case, since I believe the bible carries as much weight as a good Clancy novel, then none of it really applies to me. 

I do believe that faith can cure & heal, but I also believe that blind faith does more harm than good.  The church is definitely a business, because it was written that way.

Just curious , here ( and NOT standing in judgment of anyone) .........

Of all of the posters, participating in this particular thread.  Who has read the Bible , Cover to Cover??

I have not.  just curious who may have...

Well Ock, looks like you, bringing the total posters to 15 on this thread, come in as a believer in a god since you used the god word as: ".... when in fact it came straight from GOD and was established.....".  According to the "GOD USE WORD RULE", the score on the thread now is eight to seven, with the nonbelievers leading by one.

But of course, as suggested earlier, some of the other posters may also be believers, but it is difficult to determine at this point because they have not yet used the word "god" in their posts.  Actually, I suppose that the use of the word "lord" also would indicate whether or not the speaker believes there is a god in the scheme of things; that is, if used in the manner of "The Lord said....". etc.

Have I read the bible through from beginning to end? My goodness, certainly not, as it would be such drudgery.  I read just enough to get my mind wet, somehow realizing that it was only a collection of myths, stories, anecdotes, histories, rules of conduct, biographies of individuals, tribes and nations, written by men for all sorts of reasons, from different times, from different places, but most certainly written by men, to be consumed by men, and not written by some god.

Have read it twice....

Once - but not all the way through, cover to cover, like you would another book.  And don't ask me to quote it.  And I don't pretend to have understood all of it.  The Bible is a conversation between God and me - and speaks to me differently each time I read from it.  Which, admittedly is not nearly enough.  In fact, I think now would be a good time to turn off the computer and read a few pages.

Quote from: Timkin on March 02, 2011, 12:53:44 AM

Just curious , here ( and NOT standing in judgment of anyone) .........

Of all of the posters, participating in this particular thread.  Who has read the Bible , Cover to Cover??

I have not.  just curious who may have...

I was raised very strick penticostal and had to read it...i believe once at the church when i was about 10 there was a read the whole bible thing...but i cant remember if i ever really finished it or not...

What's with all the Bible quotes?!

We do all realize this was a book written by humans, quite recently (in the grand scheme of human history), too.

I've never understood the point of quoting the book to make a point, anymore than I'd quote Tolstoy, Shakespeare, Robespierre, Plato, etc.

Don't we all feel a little foolish for our fellow men as they are duped by such frivolous stories...

Sorry, I clearly have zero tolerance for people who believe in made up stories...as I have no tolerance for anyone who comes up to me and says they believe in the Tooth Fairy.

Quote from: Garden guy on March 02, 2011, 06:46:37 AM

Quote from: Timkin on March 02, 2011, 12:53:44 AM

Just curious , here ( and NOT standing in judgment of anyone) .........

Of all of the posters, participating in this particular thread.  Who has read the Bible , Cover to Cover??

I have not.  just curious who may have...

I was raised very strick penticostal and had to read it...i believe once at the church when i was about 10 there was a read the whole bible thing...but i cant remember if i ever really finished it or not...

http://www.oneyearbibleonline.com/ (http://www.oneyearbibleonline.com/)

I had no idea Stephen that you were raised so strongly in the Christian world, and find it interesting that you've read the bible so many times and actually survived with such remarkable mental attributes.  I must admit that I've read only a few dozen pages of the bible, having found it to be in too much disorder for good reading.  I do love history however, but prefer it in better form.

And since in all your posts, at least on this thread, you've never used the god word as a god-believer would; such as “God will punish … , or God says, etc….”, indicates that there's a good chance you've emerged without permanent damage from your early years of this heavy exposure.  It's remarkable that in spite of those earlier influences, you've not allowed your world view to be limited by or restricted to the Christian system.  There is hope.  Perhaps others too will see the freedom of thought and living that awaits them outside of the influences of dogmatic religious teachings and practices.  Yes, you've been through the valley of the shadow of ignorance, and have emerged mentally intact.  Praise Man.   

Stephen i know where you come from...we were a bit more conservative though...the women were not alllow to cut thier hair or wear pants or jewelry and i was thought that baptists, jews and catholics were going to hell....after going to college and a few world religion courses i kicked the god habit and realized that most religions are based in fear, lies and most really are cults..yes i can call the baptist church a cult...but not quit as much as the penticostal churches...it is funny to hear the words..."my grandmother was a leader of a cult..lol.....

You want to know the difference between a cult and a mainstream Christian sect?  About sixty years and a few million dollars.

And my favorite definition of faith from a good friend; "Faith is forcing yourself to believe in something you know can't possibly be true."

I had a great uncle who, when asked when he felt the calling to become a Seventh Day Adventist minister, answered, "When plowing behind a mule on an August day in southern Georgia."

Quote from: Dog Walker on March 04, 2011, 10:21:01 AM
You want to know the difference between a cult and a mainstream Christian sect?  About sixty years and a few million dollars.

And my favorite definition of faith from a good friend; "Faith is forcing yourself to believe in something you know can't possibly be true."

I had a great uncle who, when asked when he felt the calling to become a Seventh Day Adventist minister, answered, "When plowing behind a mule on an August day in southern Georgia."

Too hilarious...and so true

Quote from: Garden guy on March 04, 2011, 07:52:44 AM
Stephen i know where you come from...we were a bit more conservative though...the women were not alllow to cut thier hair or wear pants or jewelry and i was thought that baptists, jews and catholics were going to hell....after going to college and a few world religion courses i kicked the god habit and realized that most religions are based in fear, lies and most really are cults..yes i can call the baptist church a cult...but not quit as much as the penticostal churches...it is funny to hear the words..."my grandmother was a leader of a cult..lol.....

I love girls with no pants on.

What is it about religion that turns us into attack dogs?  Why can't we just leave people to their beliefs and be happy in our own disbeliefs?

Now I sound like Rodney King. ;D  

Religion, much like politics , does that .

Quote from: ben says on March 02, 2011, 08:56:53 AM
What's with all the Bible quotes?!

We do all realize this was a book written by humans, quite recently (in the grand scheme of human history), too.

I've never understood the point of quoting the book to make a point, anymore than I'd quote Tolstoy, Shakespeare, Robespierre, Plato, etc.

Don't we all feel a little foolish for our fellow men as they are duped by such frivolous stories...

Sorry, I clearly have zero tolerance for people who believe in made up stories...as I have no tolerance for anyone who comes up to me and says they believe in the Tooth Fairy.

For me it would be a shame to have such a closed mind... But remind some of us believers next time your on the River Walk so we can touch the hem of your garment.  ;)

Ever heard of The Flower Fairies? How about the myth of the Trojan Horse... which is no longer a myth? The myth of the soldier saved by a silver dollar... which when they raised the CSS Hunley, turned out NOT to be a myth? Ever heard of the miracle of the Sea Gulls in The Great Salt Lake Valley...myth? I don't think so!  Did you know the Confederate gunners at Fort McRee in 1861, sent a 10" high explosive shell right through the gun port and into a gun embrasure of the Yankees in Fort Picken's. It exploded with horrific destruction of the federal gun, ammo supply, accouterments, and the brick room in general - BUT not a single hair on the head of any of the Yankee crew was touched! Myth? Not!  

Now lets go 1969 cerebral, ever been on LSD? Mescaline? Peyote? Opium? Heroin or Methadone? THERE IS A REALITY THAT YOU CAN'T SEE WITH YOUR REGULAR EYES!  Some of us have been there perhaps, but it will change your view on a lot of things... It opens your mind to the teachings of The Buddha at the sermon where he didn't say a word... the message? "If you think you heard a flower - it's a flower that you heard!" I had the experience of tripping through a Los Angeles Art Museum and actually SAW GOD weeping for me... Uh? Crazy old Ocklawaha? Hey maybe so, but I'll tell you if that doesn't get your attention and light your fire, your wood is wet.

Yeah, I've read it from cover to cover many times, as well as The Book Of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants, The Bhagavad Gītā, ἀπόκρυφοc or Aprocapha, Popol Vuh,  Edgar Casey Sleeping Prophet, Science and Health With Key to The Scriptures, Dianetics, various Watchtower Society books, Kingdom Interlinear Translation, The Joseph Smith Translation, Prophecy of Nahau Pech, The Golden Tablets, Beowulf, Steppenwolf, Main Kampf, The Writings of Chairman Mao (aka: The Little Red Book) and more mainstream Christian Books then I could recall in a few days. Guess what? Your free to believe any of them or walk away from them according to your own sense of humanity, or lack thereof. As y'all can imagine Stephen (one of the few that has seen part of my library) and I have had some VERY interesting discussions.

I actually feel sorry for some of the university educated robotic drones that infest today's world... You never even burned down a student union did you? You missed a hell of a lot, such memorable actions as the levitation of the Pentagon, the dropping of dollar bills onto the New York Stock Exchange floor, and the Chicago 8 Trial, which followed the demonstrations at the Democratic Convention not to mention Vietnam, Woodstock, Kent State-Jackson State massacres, California Jam, Soul and the birth of Southern Rock. Was it real? a hallucination? Or a drug propelled brain cloud?

I stretched back and I hiccupped
And looked back on my busy day
Eleven hours in the Tin Pan
God, there's got to be another way

Who are you?

Now THAT was funny!

OCKLAWAHA  ;D  (http://smileys.emoticonsonly.com/emoticons/h/hippie-3502.gif)

Well-said , Ock! .. ++1,000,000!

Quote from: ben says on March 02, 2011, 08:56:53 AM

Sorry, I clearly have zero tolerance for people who believe in made up stories...as I have no tolerance for anyone who comes up to me and says they believe in the Tooth Fairy.

You seem offended by other people believing in things you don't. What's it to you? As long as they are not kidnapping your kids and taking them off to some religious commune or knocking down your door trying to sell you on their religion. The only problem I have with believers is when they try to foist their beliefs on me or when they use the Book to condone terror like the Muslim extremists.

But if your faith is limited to only what you can see and touch then your life must be very sterile. Even if we can't prove those Bible stories that you call ridiculous there is nothing wrong with imagining them no more than imagining that our solar system consists of a billion stars until some astrologer comes along and tells us we are full of ****, that he discovered another billion.

"Religion" is much more than the brick and mortar organized religions that we humans use as vehicles for accomplishing several goals.  Ones religious beliefs only begin with our upbringing, but is shaped by each of our personal voyages through this world.  Every single human being has a unique and personal experience.  "Religion" is one way we have of discussing and learning about the experiences that we, and the many who have come before us, have had.

Whatever your beliefs, non-beliefs, or opinions, as in any facet of life, I think it is important to listen to what others have to say and make judgements based on the validity of what is communicated.  Hostility of any kind towards those with differing thoughts is not only unwarranted, but is illogical and the antithesis of intelligent thought. 

Awesome!  Thanks Stephen! :)

A well written and moving testimonial.  Thanks StephenDare!.

Quote from: NotNow on March 05, 2011, 11:55:22 AM
A well written and moving testimonial.  Thanks StephenDare!.

+1 !

Kudos, Stephen !  +1,000,000

That was profound, Stephen. Thanks.

I would add that the hostility that others show towards other people's religions usually extends beyond religion. Some have no tolerance for other people's politics, traditions, or anything with which they have nothing in common.
Sad. :(

Stephen --- What originally drew you to the Baptist church?  Just curious...

As for previous posters who make negative comments about those who happen to have religious beliefs, I have experienced as much intolerance from those who profess to be atheists or 'non-believer' as I have experienced from those of more dogmatic faiths.  I believe it is wrong for religious people to disrespect those who do not subscribe to a belief system.  I believe that it is equally wrong for the disrespect to be directed in the opposite direction as well.  The thoughts, prayers and/or energies of others are best left to those who hold them - and should not be held in such glib contempt.

Quote from: Cricket on March 05, 2011, 03:04:19 PM
That was profound, Stephen. Thanks.

I would add that the hostility that others show towards other people's religions usually extends beyond religion. Some have no tolerance for other people's politics, traditions, or anything with which they have nothing in common.
Sad. :(

I agree , Cricket.   I really have few words on the subjects ,compared to some,mainly because I do not take any enjoyment in stepping on toes or possibly offending others.

I was raised in the Southern Baptist Faith, but later changed to Methodist. 

IMO (just my personal 2cents)  Sometimes , maybe always you have to realize there are things going on that you cannot see.

I have witnessed the passing of several family members , and a few friends, so witnessing this is something I have , somewhat become accustomed to .

What I am about to say, some may think it is a crock of bull , but it is in fact, truth.....At least as I observed the situation.

I helped take care of my Step-father in his final days.  On the morning of his final day, my Mother cut some fresh roses and placed on a table by his bedside , in his plain view.  at the foot of his bed was an oscillating fan .. this was normally the way he was comfortable and for as long as I knew the man, around 21 years, they had the same fan at the foot of the bed , to move air ,,among his illnesses was chronic emphysema, so I suppose it helped him breathe easier.. 

Around 2 pm , I noticed his fingers and other extremities turning a bluish color.  I knew at that point he was leaving us.. Asked my sister to contact Hospice, as they were also managing his pain and helping to keep comfortable..

Around 4:30 or so the hospice nurse arrived....and verified that this was the case..  My mom, whom I had relieved watch for had been laying down to rest... I asked my Sister to go wake her...

As he was taking his final breaths, around 5:45pm,  observed by myself and my sister, My Mother , and the Hospice Nurse,  we noticed the fan was slowing down and picking back up speed.. this went on for several minutes..

Shortly after his last breath , and the Nurse verifying his passing, the Fan completely stopped.. (never to run again)and the rose petals began falling off on to the table.  I had to ask the others if I was nuts , or was this really happening..

That may sound insane or bizarre, but so help me, that is what we observed..   And that is why I say , I believe there are things going on around us , that we cannot see, and maybe cannot physically feel , but they ARE , nonetheless happening.

  I happen to be a firm believer in God.

Wow!  Twice in one day.  Another moving testimonial!  Thanks Timkin.

Thanks, Stephen and Timkin.  You both speak from the heart.

My goodness…… I guess I’m outnumbered on this religious thing.  I must think more on this, as these testimonies and mini bios seem to be crumbling my foundation.  Perhaps I am wrong in my atheism, as history has shown that truth and virtue resides always in the majority.  I will think.  In any case, I’ve enjoyed and appreciated warmly everyone’s posts, and will chew further upon them.  This is important to me, as at stake is the possibility that I will forever burn in hell.  This kind of thread I thoroughly enjoy, as it causes us to think and write about one of the most important issues for us humans.   

Quote from: Expree on March 06, 2011, 11:27:10 AM
My goodness…… I guess I’m outnumbered on this religious thing.  I must think more on this, as these testimonies and mini bios seem to be crumbling my foundation.  Perhaps I am wrong in my atheism, as history has shown that truth and virtue resides always in the majority.  I will think.  In any case, I’ve enjoyed and appreciated warmly everyone’s posts, and will chew further upon them.  This is important to me, as at stake is the possibility that I will forever burn in hell.  This kind of thread I thoroughly enjoy, as it causes us to think and write about one of the most important issues for us humans.   

I think that is one of the hazards of organized religion.  We begin to treat personal philosophy like either a social club or a sales organization.  If someone is at ease with their own beliefs, why should recruitment matter?  If one's beliefs are strong enough, they should attract people without having to force them to agree, right?

Well, I’ll agree that sometimes organized religion is a hazard, but then one could discuss to what or whom it would be a hazard, and how it would be so.  And of course, everyone has a personal philosophy, simply because any philosophy resides within one’s person.  And it seems proper for most to recruit if they believe they are in the right, this is, if they wish their fellow citizens to reap the same benefits.  And I suppose the strength of one’s beliefs can affect the degree of attraction to one’s own beliefs.  However, I suspect that in the end, the truth or quality of one’s beliefs will better determine it’s attractive power.       

IMO...there is a huge stretch between "organized religion" and just plain blind faith. I don't think its about being outnumbered or going with the majority.  There is the individual's position and that is as unique as the person.  

If you believe in ghosts, some think you are crazy.
If you believe in Aliens, some think you are crazy.
If you believe in Allah, some think you are crazy.
If you believe in Jesus and God, some think you are crazy.
If you believe in Mother Gaia, some think you are crazy.
If you believe in reincarnation (whether Hindu or Buddhist or some other way), some think you are crazy.
If you don't believe in any of these, some think you are crazy.

See the pattern?
Religion is different for everyone. Even in the same church, amongst the people sitting on the same pew for many years, there is a difference in how they think.

I've been called soulless for not attending church by family members. I've been told I'm going to hell for not believing in the same god as everyone else around me.

You can argue that the bible is a copy of sumerian and greek myths, and you'll be called out and people will get mad at your audacity of testing their faith.

Man has been trying to find an answer for everything, some things science can now prove how they work. Others, like what happens after you die, well, thats where the person comes in. Some will always believe in afterlife, others think that death is finite.

Have I seen stupid callous deaths where people tried to reason that god needed to take a brother and sister home to be with their younger brother while leaving their grieving parents childless? Yup.
Have I seen someone healed after believing in their hearts and even spiritual healing? Yup.
Does it prove to me that absence or proof of a god? Nope.

The ultimate test of a person's ability to get along with fellow man, is not to look down at anyone's belief and understand that your own beliefs might be looked down on just as strongly. Unfortunately, very few people on earth are truly capable of this. I catch myself quite often and try to remind myself of this.

Yes Stephen, I've heard of Charles Fort.  I think he was a late 19th / early 20th century writer on unexplained phenomena.  The book I remember is "The Book of the Damned".  In any case, I recall casually looking through the book.  I will look again however for good substance... for me that is. 

The Charles Fort name brings up the post by Timkin, which seems to be of the unexplained Fort variety. Timkin's partial posting follows:

" As he was taking his final breaths, around 5:45pm,  observed by myself and my sister, My Mother , and the Hospice Nurse,  we noticed the fan was slowing down and picking back up speed.. this went on for several minutes..

Shortly after his last breath , and the Nurse verifying his passing, the Fan completely stopped.. (never to run again)and the rose petals began falling off on to the table.  I had to ask the others if I was nuts , or was this really happening..

That may sound insane or bizarre, but so help me, that is what we observed..   And that is why I say , I believe there are things going on around us , that we cannot see, and maybe
cannot physically feel , but they ARE , nonetheless happening.

  I happen to be a firm believer in God. "

My question to Timkin is whether or not there were any cameras recording in the room, and if not, would all witnesses in the room be willing to take a lie detector test about the claims of  "unexplained phenomena" in the room?  If there were any films of the fan stopping and the rose petals dropping, then this could be one of the most important events in the history of  mankind, as it would support a proof that there is really something out there somewhere affecting we humans in the mysterious ways we've always wondered about, perhaps even a god. 

If there were no cameras, and if there is no successful lie detector tests affirming the claimed events, then I would be inclined to place the "Timkin fan and rose petal event" along with all the other unverifiable claims of miracles such as Christ's rising from the dead, Christ’s ascension into the heavens, Muhammad‘s ascension too, Christ‘s walking upon water, the parting of the Red Sea waters, the birth of Jesus from a virgin, the burning bush, etc etc.  Of course we don’t worry about verifications of Zeus’s or Apollo’s actions because we no longer believe, as our ancestor’s did, in these particular gods.  How ridiculous it was to believe in all those gods of the Greeks, and their Roman cousins. Thank goodness we’ve found newer, better gods.

Of course, the fan/rose petal event could be true, and all the other miracles mentioned above could be true.  But, forgive me when I say that every bit of life within me tells me it is all just man playing mental games and deceptions, as none of the above is supported by a shred of evidence.  All of the above however can be explained by man's ability, need and wish, to deceive, to exaggerate, to create something larger and more important than man, like a god; to believe sometimes the most unbelievable things, to allow their beliefs and worshipping to ascend to the highest levels of absurdity, to allow their desperation, ignorance, and inclination for blind faith to perpetuate beliefs in the many gods that have been worshiped for thousands of years, gods that have never existed except in the minds of men.

Well, Expree, I can tell you, there were no camera recorders or any similar devices in the room. as to witnesses , I have no idea where the Hospice Nurse is today.  My Mother passed June 13,2004, so she can not attest to the events so that leaves my sister and I , and I would G L A D L Y submit to a lie detector test.  I have little doubt she would as well. It is otherwise, as you readily deemed it, an unverifiable claim, since I am not posting here to IMPRESS anyone , but simply state what I experienced and I would have absolutely ZERO reason to make it up.   If you think my experience and all of the others you have outlined above are absolute untruths ,then so be it.That is your opinion and you are entitled to your opinion.

  I do believe in God. I do believe there are things, events, however one wants to term it going on around us that we cannot physically see, physically feel , and quite possibly not even physically hear.  There are believers and non-believers , just as there are various religions, viewpoints of religion, etc.  Its like saying there are no such thing as radio waves, because you cannot see or feel them, but you hear them in the end ,because the radio plays.. But you cannot see the wave being transmitted, or feel it, or catch it, or video or sound record it, so it must be made up :)  The radio plays music, just ,because I guess.   The same must hold true for wireless or television.. no doubt, those as well are some how rigged. 

From my perspective, I KNOW , I do not think,  I KNOW, what I saw with my eyes.  I do not know what to make of it , why it happened , or what , if any significance there was to the events as I stated.  It simply reminded me that there is more to this paradox , we call life , than meets the eye.

I never called the events that transpired that evening "miracles"  You can refuse to believe it if you wish. no offense taken here.   

I will happily submit to a lie-detector test. :)

Your last paragraph says the most...

QuoteOf course, the fan/rose petal event could be true, and all the other miracles mentioned above could be true.  But, forgive me when I say that every bit of life within me tells me it is all just man playing mental games and deceptions, as none of the above is supported by a shred of evidence.  All of the above however can be explained by man's ability, need and wish, to deceive, to exaggerate, to create something larger and more important than man, like a god; to believe sometimes the most unbelievable things, to allow their beliefs and worshipping to ascend to the highest levels of absurdity, to allow their desperation, ignorance, and inclination for blind faith to perpetuate beliefs in the many gods that have been worshiped for thousands of years, gods that have never existed except in the minds of men.

I tend to think as you do... all the way to... "...to believe sometimes the most unbelievable things".

What follows is where I part ways with the atheists or secularists.  The argument that follows goes on to list the "absurdity, desperation, and ignorance", of people who believe.  And this simply is not so.  Some of these folks may be absurd, desperate or ignorant... but simply being a "believer" does not make them so.  The atheists and secularists never include all the wonderful, good, and amazing things religion does for these people.

Is it really necessary to put down believers in order to prop up your beliefs?

Quote from: BridgeTroll on March 08, 2011, 07:49:34 AM
Is it really necessary to put down believers in order to prop up your beliefs?

IT is  when for history the religious have been not only allowed but pushed to step on those that don't believe their words or beliefs....they've had thousands of years to practice....i say no rules...just because they believe in something does'nt make them "special" and the fact that cities and governments have moved mountains for jesus people.....all is fair.

(quote fixed - OCK)

Quote from: Garden guy on March 08, 2011, 08:14:33 AM
"special" and the fact that cities and governments have moved mountains for jesus people...."

Quote from: Expree on March 07, 2011, 11:39:04 PM
...all the other unverifiable claims of miracles such as Christ's rising from the dead, Christ’s ascension into the heavens, Muhammad‘s ascension too, Christ‘s walking upon water, the parting of the Red Sea waters, the birth of Jesus from a virgin, the burning bush, etc etc.  Of course we don’t worry about verifications of Zeus’s or Apollo’s actions because we no longer believe, as our ancestor’s did, in these particular gods.  How ridiculous it was to believe in all those gods of the Greeks, and their Roman cousins. Thank goodness we’ve found newer, better gods.

...All of the above however can be explained by man's ability, need and wish, to deceive, to exaggerate, to create something larger and more important than man, like a god; to believe sometimes the most unbelievable things, to allow their beliefs and worshipping to ascend to the highest levels of absurdity, to allow their desperation, ignorance, and inclination for blind faith to perpetuate beliefs in the many gods that have been worshiped for thousands of years, gods that have never existed except in the minds of men.

Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Holy Bible, John 20:29

OCKLAWAHA

Photoshop? Not in 1917 when these were taken. Looks like another fine case Doctor Watson! Sir Conan Doyle, the author of the world-renowned Sherlock Holmes BELIEVED the Cottingley Fairies were real. The girls in 1983 that the photos were rigged, but only because the fairies wouldn't allow themselves to be photographed and suggested this as a substitute.  But that not where the fun starts, look carefully at the bottom image of the little girl... The same little girl as a grown woman would not comment on that! ...WINGS!  Too cool, so the Cottingley Fairies live on... and remember where ever the mushrooms spring up, that is the location where the fairies last danced in the night and vanished...

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on March 09, 2011, 11:20:40 AM

(http://www.ufodigest.com/images/cottingley.jpg)

(http://www.randi.org/images/library/cottingley/Cottingley5.jpg)

(http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/uploadsgallery/1230768000/med_gallery_31428_26_491969.jpg)

Photoshop? Not in 1917 when these were taken. Looks like another fine case Doctor Watson! Sir Conan Doyle, the author of the world-renowned Sherlock Holmes BELIEVED the Cottingley Fairies were real. The girls in 1983 that the photos were rigged, but only because the fairies wouldn't allow themselves to be photographed and suggested this as a substitute.  But that not where the fun starts, look carefully at the bottom image of the little girl... The same little girl as a grown woman would not comment on that! ...WINGS!  Too cool, so the Cottingley Fairies live on... and remember where ever the mushrooms spring up, that is the location where the fairies last danced in the night and vanished...

OCKLAWAHA

What's the point of this?

You believe in fairies now?

Can't we all at least agree...there's nothing different from believing in fairies and believing in god???

Really, can ANYONE make a strong argument saying there's a difference?

Hebrews defines faith as the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.  Think about that one for a minute.  The substance of something that does not yet exist?  The evidence of something you cannot actually see? 

As human beings, we tend to demand empirical evidence before we will believe something.  "I'm from Missouri, you have to show me first."

God, however, doesn't work that way.  God requires you to take a leap of faith FIRST, and only then do He become real to you.

So,  Ben, I cannot agree with you.  You see, having made the leap of faith, and experienced God working in my life, I have the proof.  I absolutely believe in Him. 

Fairies, not so much, although I'm open to the possibility.  I believe there are many wondrous things here on earth they eye of man has never seen, and are yet to be discovered.

Quote from: stephendare on March 09, 2011, 01:18:36 PM
Or believing in science.  Do you agree with that, ben says?

Would you concede that belief systems answer questions that science cannot even begin to answer?

No, I do not agree with your first statement. I'd actually say, anyone who agrees with that statement is certifiably insane. How can you lump together science with belief in things that can't be proven? It wouldn't be science if it couldn't be proven. Science is based on empiricism. Faith is based on...well...nothing.

I do not concede that belief systems can answer anything concrete. Just because science can't answer some things does not automatically mean faith can. It's not an either/or scenario.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Yes, science is based on empiric results, i.e. the scientific method. Essentially the purest reason we know.

What else would science be based on? How can you compare, with a straight face, science and fairies/gods...?

Wait...do you also believe prayer can heal? Let's hope you don't get any serious ailments anytime soon!

Quote from: ben says on March 09, 2011, 02:19:55 PM
Essentially the purest reason we know.

This is a stunning statement.

Pure science is really good at observing things. It is terrible at philosophy, particularly when coming from it's own observations.

Not to mention there are some questions that it is impossible for science to answer.

Quote from: ben says on March 09, 2011, 01:52:42 PM

Quote from: stephendare on March 09, 2011, 01:18:36 PM
Or believing in science.  Do you agree with that, ben says?

Would you concede that belief systems answer questions that science cannot even begin to answer?

No, I do not agree with your first statement. I'd actually say, anyone who agrees with that statement is certifiably insane. How can you lump together science with belief in things that can't be proven? It wouldn't be science if it couldn't be proven. Science is based on empiricism. Faith is based on...well...nothing.

I do not concede that belief systems can answer anything concrete. Just because science can't answer some things does not automatically mean faith can. It's not an either/or scenario.

Oh, what fun.  Here we go.

So, here's the way my science teacher explained the scientific method to me.  First, you state a hypothisis, a theory.  Then you set out to prove it.  If you can prove it, you have something.  If not, your just have an unproven idea you threw out there.  Kind of like Darwin's Theory of Evolution.  Still unproven, but taught as fact.

How, then, Ben, is belief in the Divine that different?  One doesn't refuse to believe the existence of God because He hasn't proven Himself to you yet.  You state your belief in his existence, and then set out to prove it by experiencing His working in your life.  It's part of the mystery of God.

Can I provide you proof of His existence befoe you will believe??  No. You have to experience it for yourself.  Once you do, you cease to doubt.

Perhaps the oddest thing I've noticed in my life is that people who claim no belief in anything they can't touch or see, are often the same people fascinated by science-fiction, and sci-fi movie's such as Star Trek, and other inquisitive tales of the unknown. Several have told me that they believe when we meet an alien civilization it will probably look like this or that, seen or read in science-fiction. All the more interesting because today's sci-fi is often tomorrows science. To anyone who does this, perhaps even believes that someday we might find something like the "Borg," to laugh at the concept of a spiritual realm or a God seems to condemn their arguments to incredulity.

Whats really amusing to me Stephen, is the number of people that claim a superior intelligence of knowing that there is no God, No spiritual realm, No supernatural, and lump God and Fairies together as myth. It is in fact a hollow claim, as it is impossible for any of them to know who, at this instant, is standing behind them. Nobody you say? Well how about beyond the next room? beyond the house? beyond the city, county, state or country? WHO IS BEHIND YOU and the bottom line, how do you know it is not GOD? These people for the most part realize deep down that there really is another realm, in fact the "Theory of Everything," in quantum physics teaches that there are 11 realms in the cosmos, most of which we cannot detect, but which open the possibility of "Parallel Time," "Spiritual Worlds," and mind boggling incredible things which as long as we are restricted to our human bodies, we'll probably never see. Einstein was working on the beginnings of this theory when he died, believing as he did in a pan-spiritual world. Most of the great philosophers believed in variations of the existence of other realms from time immortal. But for the modern atheists it's more a matter of pride, rebellion and cloaked ignorance.

These people do not have bodies, rather they believe that they are bodies, for to admit to owning a body would be to admit that something indwells it complete with personality and name. Do any of them own a cat or a dog or would we say they are cats or dogs, and is that pet a body or does it inhabit a body? Far from being a narrow, old time, restrictive view of the cosmos, the belief in the immortal cosmos, is infinitely liberating. Yeah, it might mean you surrender a bit of self, but the payback is eternal enlightenment, and who knows, you might even meet the Borg!

"Whatsoever therefore is consequent to a time of War, where every man is Enemy to every man; the same is consequent to the time, wherein men live without other security, than what their own strength, and their own invention shall furnish them with all. In such condition, there is no place for Industry; because the fruit thereof is uncertain; and consequently no Culture of the Earth; no Navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by Sea; no commodious Building; no Instruments of moving, and removing such things as require much force; no Knowledge of the face of the Earth; no account of Time; no Arts; no Letters; no Society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death; And the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short."
Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.

"Wars, factions, and fighting,' said Socrates as he looked forward from his last hour, 'have no other origin than this same body and its lusts. ... We must set the soul free from it; we must behold things as they are. And having thus got rid of the foolishness of the body, we shall be pure and hold converse with the pure, and shall in our own selves have complete knowledge of the Incorruptible which is, I take it, no other than the very truth."
"We can and must pray to the gods that our sojourn on earth will continue happy beyond the grave. This is my prayer, and may it come to pass."
Σωκράτης Socrates prior to his forced "suicide" death, 399 BC

All things are woven together and the common bond is sacred, and scarcely one thing is foreign to another, for they have been arranged together in their places and together make the same ordered Universe. For there is one Universe out of all, one God through all, one substance and one law, one common Reason of all intelligent creatures and one Truth. Frequently consider the connection of all things in the universe. We should not say ‘I am an Athenian’ or ‘I am a Roman’ but ‘I am a citizen of the Universe'.
Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, 172â€"174

To Buddhism, however, death is not the end of life, it is merely the end of the body we inhabit in this life, but our spirit will still remain and seek out through the need of attachment, attachment to a new body and new life. Where they will be born is a result of the past and the accumulation of positive and negative action, and the resultant karma (cause and effect) is a result of ones past actions.
P.756. Wordsworth editions 1999.The Wordsworth Encyclopedia of World Religions

Light or darkness, sounds and smells leave bodies quite unaffected; what does affect bodies is not these but the bodies which are their vehicles, e.g. what splits the trunk of a tree is not the sound of the thunder but the air which accompanies thunder. Yes, but, it may be objected, bodies are affected by what is tangible and by flavours. If not, by what are things that are without soul affected, i.e. altered in quality?
Aristotle, On the Soul, Book II, Chapter 12


But we're all fixin' to find out! Don't be caught dead without having read your program, otherwise all dressed up and no place to go.

OCKLAWAHA

I have missed Ock.

You say that those that do not believe in a god is hollow....just a hollow as believe that some girl had a baby from a visit from "god"....um...she was probably having sex with someone who wasnt her husband and asctually convinced him that "god" did it....if not joseph had an obligation to kill her...of course she would say god did it. who wants to get their head taken off...God was created by man as a cooping skill...not reality.

Thank God Science we've got that settled!

Thanks GG!

Quote from: buckethead on March 10, 2011, 07:56:41 AM
Thank God Science we've got that settled!

Thanks GG!

You're so welcome..i knew you were lost..lol

Alright now!

Ock gives me Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle et al.

What was it you were saying to counter the scientific and philosophical brain trust of the ages?

I got lost again.

Quote from: Garden guy on March 10, 2011, 07:51:19 AM
You say that those that do not believe in a god is hollow....just a hollow as believe that some girl had a baby from a visit from "god"....um...she was probably having sex with someone who wasnt her husband and asctually convinced him that "god" did it....if not joseph had an obligation to kill her...of course she would say god did it. who wants to get their head taken off...God was created by man as a cooping skill...not reality.

Interesting that you just elevated your thought above that of the Bible, Plato or modern Quantum Physics. Try and understand that if SCIENCE proves there are 11 realms in the cosmos, I seriously doubt that you alone have found the window to the virgin birth of Christ. But you "KNOW?" Such knowledge assumes that you were there, a physical impossibility... well...at least in this realm. Ah, but there can be no other realm because the supernatural world is all myth but I suspect the Borg is a distinct possibility.

Shine some science on the virgin birth and guess what? As Adam Savage and Jamie Hyneman would say, PLAUSIBLE!
Parthenogenesis

QuoteIn parthenogenesis ("virgin birth"), the females produce eggs, but these develop into young without ever being fertilized.
Parthenogenesis occurs in some fishes, several kinds of insects, and a few species of frogs and lizards. It does not normally occur in mammals because of their imprinted genes. However, using special manipulations to circumvent imprinting, laboratory mice have been produced by parthenogenesis. [Link]

In a few nonmammalian species it is the only method of reproduction, but more commonly animals turn to parthenogenesis only under certain circumstances. Examples:

   * Aphids use parthenogenesis in the spring when they find themselves with ample food. In this species, reproduction by parthenogenesis is more rapid than sexual reproduction, and the use of this mode of asexual reproduction permits the animals to quickly exploit the available resources.
   * Female Komodo dragons (the largest lizard) can produce offspring by parthenogenesis when no male is available for sexual reproduction. Their offspring are homozygous at every locus including having identical sex chromosomes. Thus the females produce all males because, unlike mammals, females are the heterogametic sex (ZW) while males are homogametic (ZZ).

...Occasionally worker honeybees develop ovaries and lay unfertilized eggs. Usually these are haploid, as you would expect, and develop into males. However, workers of the subspecies Apis mellifera capensis (the Cape honeybee) can lay unfertilized diploid eggs that develop into females (who continue the practice). The eggs are produced by meiosis, but then the polar body nucleus fuses with the egg nucleus restoring diploidy (2n). (The phenomenon is called automictic thelytoky.)

Why Choose Asexual Reproduction?

Perhaps the better question is: Why not?

After all, asexual reproduction would seem a more efficient way to reproduce. Sexual reproduction requires males but they themselves do not produce offspring.
Two general explanations for the overwhelming prevalence of sexually-reproducing species over asexual ones are:

   * Perhaps sexual reproduction has kept in style because it provides a mechanism to weed out (through the recombination process of meiosis) harmful mutations that arise in the population reducing its fitness. Asexual reproduction leads to these mutations becoming homozygous and thus fully exposed to the pressures of natural selection.
   * Perhaps it is the ability to adapt quickly to a changing environment that has caused sex to remain the method of choice for most living things.

...An asexual population tends to be genetically static. (Jesus had no offspring-OCK) Mutant alleles appear but remain forever associated with the particular alleles present in the rest of that genome. Even a beneficial mutation will be doomed to extinction if trapped along with genes that reduce the fitness of that population.

But with the genetic recombination provided by sex, new alleles can be shuffled into different combinations with all the other alleles available to the genome of that species. A beneficial mutation that first appears alongside harmful alleles can, with recombination, soon find itself in more fit genomes that will enable it to spread through a sexual population.
Evidence (from Paland and Lynch in the 17 February 2006 issue of Science):

Some strains of the water flea Daphnia pulex (a tiny crustacean) reproduce sexually, others asexually. The asexual strains accumulate deleterious mutations in their mitochondrial genes four times as fast as the sexual strains.
Evidence (from Goddard et al. in the 31 March 2005 issue of Nature):

Budding yeast missing two genes essential for meiosis adapt less rapidly to growth under harsh conditions than an otherwise identical strain that can undergo genetic recombination. Under good conditions, both strains grow equally well.
Evidence (from Rice and Chippindale in the 19 October 2001 issue of Science):

Using experimental Drosophila populations, they found that a beneficial mutation introduced into chromosomes that can recombine did â€" over time â€" increase in frequency more rapidly than the same mutation introduced into chromosomes that could not recombine.

So sex provides a mechanism for testing new combinations of alleles for their possible usefulness to the phenotype:

   * deleterious alleles weeded out by natural selection;
   * useful ones retained by natural selection.

Some organisms may still gain the benefits of genetic recombination while avoiding sex. Many mycorrhizal fungi use asexual reproduction only. However, at least two species have been shown to have multiple â€" similar â€" copies of the same gene; that is, are polyploid. Perhaps recombination between these (during mitosis?) enables these organisms to avoid the hazards of accumulating deleterious mutations. (See the paper by Pawlowska and Taylor in the 19 Feb 2004 issue of Nature.)

But there are many examples of populations that thrive without sex, at least while they live in a stable environment.
Rapid Adaptation to a Changing Environment

As we have seen (above), populations without sex are genetically static. They may be well-adapted to a given environment, but will be handicapped in evolving in response to changes in the environment. One of the most potent environmental forces acting on a species environment is its parasites.

The speed with which parasites like bacteria and viruses can change their virulence may provide the strongest need for their hosts to have the ability to make new gene combinations. So sex may be virtually universal because of the never-ending need to keep up with changes in parasites.

Evidence:
...genetic uniformity.
   * There is some evidence that genetically uniform populations are at increased risk of devastating epidemics and population crashes.
   * Flour beetles (Tribolium castaneum) parasitized by the microsporidium Nosema whitei increase the rate of recombination during meiosis.

The idea that a constantly-changing environment, especially with respect to parasites, drives evolution is often called the Red Queen hypothesis. It comes from Lewis Carroll's book Through the Looking Glass, where the Red Queen says "Now here, you see, it takes all the running you can do to keep in the same place".

Probably Both

The possibilities outlined above are not mutually exclusive and a recent study [see Morran, L. T., et al., in Nature, 462:350, 19 November 2009] suggests that both forces are at work in favoring sexual reproduction over its alternatives.

The organism for testing these theories was Caenorhabditis elegans. While C. elegans does not reproduce asexually, most worms are hermaphrodites and usually reproduce by self-fertilization with each individual fertilizing its own eggs. This quickly results in its genes becoming homozygous and thus fully-exposed to natural selection just as they are in asexually-reproducing species.

Hermaphrodites have two X chromosomes and self-fertilization ("selfing") usually produces more of the same; that is, hermaphrodites produce more hermaphrodites. However, an occasional nondisjunction generates an embryo with a single X chromosome and this develops into a male. These males can mate with hermaphrodites (their sperm is preferred over the hermaphrodites own) and, in fact, such "outcrossing" produces a larger number of offspring. It also produces 50% hermaphrodites and 50% males...
SOURCE:  http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/A/AsexualReproduction.html#Asexual_Reproduction_in_Animals

QuotePhysicists aren't just spinning out these tales of 11 dimensions for the amusement of science-fiction writers. Rather, unseen dimensions seem to offer the best hope for solving the kinds of problems that have frustrated theorists since Albert Einstein's day.

The incredible lightness of gravity

For decades, physicists have puzzled over the weakness of gravity in comparison with the other fundamental forces of nature.

"A tiny magnet can lift a paper clip, even though all the mass of the earth is pulling it in the opposite direction," Randall noted in her book on the search for extra dimensions, titled "Warped Passages."

Einstein tried to come up with an overarching theory that could apply equally well to gravity and the other forces, but just couldn't do it. In fact, the theories that govern gravity and quantum mechanics are totally separate, and totally incompatible in the four-dimensional world we know.

Over the past couple of decades, Einstein's successors have focused their quest for a "theory of everything" on string theory â€" the idea that the fundamental constituents of matter are tiny stringlike objects vibrating at different frequencies. String theorists could come up with equations to cover gravity as well as quantum effects, as long as they were given 10 or 11 dimensions to work with.

Straining to explain branes

The theories work even better if you can think of our four-dimensional space-time continuum as a type of membrane, or "brane," embedded in a "bulk" that takes in even more dimensions. Randall and Sundrum found that gravity's comparative weakness was perfectly understandable if particles called gravitons could leak off a brane into a five-dimensional bulk. In fact, they said, it could well be that gravitons are leaking across the bulk into our own brane (the "Weakbrane") from an extradimensional brane nearby (the "Gravitybrane").

Admittedly, this sounds like a made-up world straight from "Alice in Wonderland" â€" and indeed, Alice has been invoked more than once by theorists themselves. The only thing that could save extradimensional physics from the fiction shelf is the prospect of finding real-world evidence to support the braneworld concept.

Although there are no guarantees, Randall and Sundrum are holding out hope that ambitious experiments will soon produce precisely that kind of evidence. "Within the next five years, we might actually encounter these extra dimensions," Randall said during a talk last week in Seattle.
SOURCE:  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13070896/ns/technology_and_science-science/

See you on the other side...

OCKLAWAHA

Stephen, I didn't say I didn't believe in evolution.  I said Darwin's theory is unproven.  I, at least, don't believe we evolved from apes, or an ameoba.  I fully believe humans are evolving.  Except I believe we were created as humans.  Not amoeba or apes that turned into humans.  That's the difference.

Who said yesterday's science fiction is today's fact?  I was thinking about that, and this thread,  this morning.  My grandmother was born before cars were invented, and lived to see men walking on the moon.  I still find it amazing I'm carrying a cell phone in my purse.  Dick Tracy's wrist phone?  The stuff of science fiction?  If it isn't fact already, it's right around the corner.  I can today enter a bunch of budget numbers in Excel, make changes, and Excel will re-calculate in a tiny portion of a second what it used to take me, a columnar pad and a 10-key adding machine an entire week to recalculate in 1975.

Just because something hasn't happened yet, or been proven yet, doesn't mean it won't be.

Or, as the Bible puts it, every knee shall bow, every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord.  It's just a matter of time.   :-)

Quote from: Debbie Thompson on March 10, 2011, 01:12:47 PM
Stephen, I didn't say I didn't believe in evolution.  I said Darwin's theory is unproven.  I, at least, don't believe we evolved from apes, or an ameoba.  I fully believe humans are evolving.  Except I believe we were created as humans.  Not amoeba or apes that turned into humans.  That's the difference.

Who said yesterday's science fiction is today's fact?  I was thinking about that, and this thread,  this morning.  My grandmother was born before cars were invented, and lived to see men walking on the moon.  I still find it amazing I'm carrying a cell phone in my purse.  Dick Tracy's wrist phone?  The stuff of science fiction?  If it isn't fact already, it's right around the corner.  I can today enter a bunch of budget numbers in Excel, make changes, and Excel will re-calculate in a tiny portion of a second what it used to take me, a columnar pad and a 10-key adding machine an entire week to recalculate in 1975.

Just because something hasn't happened yet, or been proven yet, doesn't mean it won't be.

Or, as the Bible puts it, every knee shall bow, every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord.  It's just a matter of time.   :-)

Not bowing and not confessing.  Sorry, but there goes everyone.

All this discussion is good, I agree.  However it really goes nowhere because science can never prove that god does not exist and faith can never prove that god does exist.  I think people need to accept this fact and move on.

Some questions have no answers.

Quote from: Live_Oak on March 10, 2011, 01:55:20 PM
All this discussion is good, I agree.  However it really goes nowhere because science can never prove that god does not exist and faith can never prove that god does exist.  I think people need to accept this fact and move on.

Some questions have no answers.

...And you Live Oak, have found the sound of one hand clapping!

OCKLAWAHA

For myself, I believe that we do have a higher power from which all was created. Nothing else seems sensible ...for me ,at least.

Quote from: stephendare on March 09, 2011, 03:37:42 PM
I happen to believe in the process of science.  It excites me, it inspires me, I try to be guided by the ideas and principles of rationalism.

Well, science is possibly about to excite you again.  But, at this point it's not a fact, so maybe all they really have are some frozen sea monkeys, to be continued....

QuoteAlien life existed, NASA scientist claims
NASA releases a statement distancing itself from the study.

A NASA scientist says he has found fossilized evidence of alien life in the remains of a meteorite, which if confirmed would bolster the theory that life is not restricted to Earth.

The claim that several types of meteorites contain fossils of microscopic creatures similar to cyanobacteria â€" also known blue-green algae â€" that originated beyond Earth has predictably created a stir, and 100 experts have been invited to review the research.

Astrobiologist Richard Hoover, who works at NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Ala., made the claim in a study published online late Friday in the peer-reviewed publication, The Journal of Cosmology.

The journal's editor-in-chief, Rudy Schild, says Hoover is a highly respected scientist with a prestigious record of accomplishment at NASA. Nevertheless, Schild says he has invited 100 experts to review Hoover's findings and will publish their commentaries online this week.

"No other paper in the history of science has undergone such a thorough analysis, and no other scientific journal in the history of science has made such a profoundly important paper available to the scientific community, for comment, before it is published," the journal's website says.

Using a high-powered microscope, Hoover examined the freshly fractured inner surfaces of carbonaceous chondrites, the most primitive of all known meteorites. These meteorites contain large amounts of water and organic material â€" each of which is necessary for the kind of life found on Earth.

But inside the meteorites, which were discovered in the Antarctic, Hoover found bacteria-like creatures that he concludes did not come from Earth.

NASA distances itself from study
Carl Pilcher, who heads NASA's Astrobiology Institute, said the rocks have been handled for more than 100 years. He said they are likely contaminated with Earth microbes.

The space agency released a statement distancing itself from Hoover's study. In an updated statement Monday evening, NASA said Hoover did not have a Ph.D. â€" even though his paper in the journal lists him as a Ph.D â€" and questioned his expertise as an astrobiologist.

"Anyone can call himself an astrobiologist. That doesn't make it so," Pilcher told the Associated Press.

Hoover, whose specialty is the study of microscopic lifeforms in extreme environments such as glaciers and geysers, is not the first scientist to claim extraterrestrial life.

In 1996, NASA researchers published in the journal Science a study of a Martian meteorite found in Antarctica

That study suggested some of the crystals of magnetite â€" an iron-bearing, magnetic mineral found in the meteorite â€" were likely the result of biological processes because they looked so similar to those created by bacteria on Earth.

Other scientists have argued that the magnetite crystals could be produced by chemical and physical processes, and even created similar crystals in the lab by heating carbonates.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2011/03/07/tech-nasa-fossil-alien-life-extra-terrestrial-meteorite.html

Quote from: stephendare on March 10, 2011, 01:35:32 PM

Quote from: Debbie Thompson on March 10, 2011, 01:12:47 PM
Stephen, I didn't say I didn't believe in evolution.  I said Darwin's theory is unproven.  I, at least, don't believe we evolved from apes, or an ameoba.  I fully believe humans are evolving.  Except I believe we were created as humans.  Not amoeba or apes that turned into humans.  That's the difference.

Respectfully, the theory that creates the framework for evolution has been proven rationally.  Beginning with the genome  project, and most of the mapping that has taken place since then we know that we carry within many of us, whole strands of genetic material from Neanderthal man, and that we share 99% of our genomes with chimpanzees, in fact there is some talk of simply reclassifying humanity as a third species of chimpanzee.

Check out the work of Jared Diamond, "The Third Chimpanzee"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Chimpanzee

It is a wonderful discussion of the subject, and I recommend it to anyone.

Here are also some links for the genomic mapping projects.  Its a very exciting time in genetics, obviously, but much of this information has not been widely disseminated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genome_project
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_genome_project
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal_Genome_Project
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimpanzee_Genome_Project

I happen to agree with Pope John Paul on this one.  I do not see how uncovering the mechanism of evolution detracts from the possibility of deliberate design.  Plus I like the idea that the Dinosaurs didnt simply all die off, but evolved into birds.

Its amusing to think of chickens and seagulls as the exponentially great grandchildren of the T rex or the thunderlizards.

Haven't had time yet to read the links, although I will.  Meantime, I'm thanking God for that 1% DNA difference between me and a chimp that allows me to be human instead of a chimp and live in a tree!  :-)  

Here's the question.  If we are 99% chimp, and evolved from chimp to human, how come there are still chimps?  Did some of them get left behind in that 1% evolution thing?  How come?  And if some  be left behind, were are the remaining Neanderthals that also got left behind?

Quote:
Here's the question.  If we are 99% chimp, and evolved from chimp to human, how come there are still chimps?  Did some of them get left behind in that 1% evolution thing?  How come?  And if some  be left behind, were are the remaining Neanderthals that also got left behind?

I think I know where you can find those left over Neanderthals...
They are those guys that show up at ladies night at the local bars.