Metro Jacksonville

Plan to build entire Outer Beltway abandoned; state will try to do it in pieces

QuoteBy Larry Hannan

It was only 11 months ago that then-Gov. Charlie Crist announced that plans to build the First Coast Outer Beltway were being expedited so construction could begin as soon as possible.

That plan, like Crist’s immediate political career, is history.

On Friday, the Florida Department of Transportation conceded it was abandoning plans to have a private partner build the entire 46.5-mile toll road from Interstate 10 in Duval County to Interstate 95 in St. Johns County.

The state now wants someone to build only a 15-mile portion of the road and will worry about getting the rest built later.

No private companies were willing to spend the estimated $1.8 billion it would have cost to build the entire road.

full article: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-02-04/story/plan-build-entire-outer-beltway-abandoned-state-will-try-do-it-pieces

I agree with the first part of this reply to the TU article:

"There you go. Once again the private sector shows far more common sense than the government saps. This road is needless. This toll is needless and these commissioners are needless. Thank God this monstrosity is being scuttled."

A lot a potential blood sucking future sprawl just went down in flames with the inability to raise $2 billion to get this asphalt monster built.

yeah who s pet project is this?  This highway makes no sense and for some reason they just won't give up on it. 

It makes sense for Clay County which would get much better access to I-10 and I-95. No doubt it is good for the region for this plan to be stopped.
I currently live in Oakleaf (my own terrible decision)  and take Brannonfeild every day to the edge of Downtown to work.  If I can ever sell my home and move to Riverside I won't care about the connector. For now however I would love fast access to 95 south of Jax.

from what I hear, they think they'll be able to get the northern link (Blanding to I-10) and the southern link (US 17 to I-95) built...it is the middle part that will be really hard to attract private funding.

This additional stretch of road is not needed at present.  Bottom Line.

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 04, 2011, 10:59:13 PM
from what I hear, they think they'll be able to get the northern link (Blanding to I-10) and the southern link (US 17 to I-95) built...it is the middle part that will be really hard to attract private funding.

If they're actually dumb enough to build 15 miles of unnecessary highway without any way to complete the rest of it, then they are seriously stupid. I am glad to see this one bite the dust.

Quote from: Timkin on February 04, 2011, 11:10:05 PM
This additional stretch of road is not needed at present.  Bottom Line.

None of it should ever be built.  It will serve no other purpose than to create more sprawl.  The only people pushing for it are the landowners and developers in the area (for obvious reasons) and the Clay County officials who want to increase their tax base.

Interesting timing. There's a piece in today's St. Pete Times on the Suncoast Parkway:

Quotethe Veterans Expressway in northern Hillsborough to U.S. 98 near the Citrus-Hernando line, suddenly made Pasco and Hernando counties seem less like the hinterlands.

By the parkway's five-year anniversary, potential became reality as developers opened the throttle. "Coming soon" signs sprouted from the sand to announce the next subdivision, office park or retail center.

But the second five years have not been as kind, with slackening revenue and dreams of development deferred.

The revved-up real estate market finally blew in 2007. Gas prices climbed above $4 a gallon in 2008, and the unemployment rates in Hernando and Pasco counties have roughly tripled, cutting the number of commuters and commercial traffic.

In 2008, after several years of pedal-to-the-metal increases, the parkway's toll revenue slipped for the first time.

In early 2009, Florida's Turnpike Enterprise announced that it was indefinitely shelving plans to build the second phase of the parkway through Citrus County.

The turnpike enterprise predicted in 2006 that the parkway would earn about $25.7 million in toll revenue in 2010. The actual figure: $20.6 million.

Full story: http://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/roads/since-2001-suncoast-parkway-hasnt-seen-the-smoothest-ride/1149624

Does anyone know how much it cost to construct the Tampa highway and what it's annual O&M numbers are? I'm wondering how many decades or centuries will it take to break even. At this point, I assume it never will.  Also, if a private entity coverts 15 miles of existing road into a tollroad, will they pay the public back for cost of what's there today (ex. ROW, & road infrastructure)?

Oh these were golden, today on the Times-Union I found these quotes.

QuoteThank god this was cancelled...
...The money should now be put towards getting a high speed rail built...

This guy obviously doesn't know the difference between a Boeing 777, and a pogo stick. Now lets see, we could pave a runway at the JRTC as long as those jets got low enough to roll under the I-95 bridge. "Now boarding at gate 29, non stop jet service to Old Middleburg Road.

QuoteFolks, “High Speed Rail” is yet another absurd Obama/Biden idea. The freight railroads are in business to MAKE MONEY. Then you have some political hack (Like Obama) force the freight railroads to share THEIR track with a “high speed rail” line. You cannot achieve true high speed rail without specially designed track and without highway/grade crossings present. I ask the good citizens of Orange Park and Ortega; do you want a 100 MPH commuter train rumbling through your neighborhood and over your street crossings?

This one is shear genius. I can see it now, a 185 mph train leaving downtown and heading for "Stockton," "Edgewood," "San Juan," "Yukon," and "Orange Park."  By the time you stopped the damn thing for that first station, you'd probably be in Green Cove Springs! Wow, flying commuter trains.

QuoteYeah, we don't need no stinkin' roads... So we can be just like Atlanta in a few years. They haven't built a new road there in 3 decades. They just keep buying orange barrels for the roads they have. As far as high speed rail... Dumb union job creating nothing. Who is going to drive to the railstation to take a train?

Here is the a-typical Jacksonville Joe Lunchbucket, he probably makes $8.50 an hour, but he knows unions are all bad. He also appears to have a vision problem, because he has never seen the crowds going to the MARTA stations in Atlanta! DUH?

QuoteWay back when the Buckman Bridge was built, many people said it was a waste of money and wasn't needed. Are people still saying that? By keeping "ahead of the times" and building infrastructure for the future, we do bring further economic development...
...True, this road isn't needed now, but ten years from now, when it probably will be needed. By only focusing on the present, we are throwing away our future.

A futurist, a man or woman of great vision, this one sees a day when we'll just pave all of Florida and be done with it. A dream to "see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off. Off and on. All day, all night. Soon, where Toontown once stood will be a string of gas stations, inexpensive motels, restaurants that serve rapidly-prepared food, tire salons, automobile dealerships, and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." *

QuoteI wonder if it ever occured to these people that it would be allot more sensible to build a second story overhead expressway over Blanding to the south end of it from 295 to ease the commuters ride out of town?

I first saw overhead expressways in a couple of Texas cities a few years ago and they were great. Construction would likely be a nightmare but it seems like a fine long-term solution to the Blanding horror.

This vision is even scarier, Blanding is 235' feet wide and on top of that we'll have 235' feet of FREEway, and when that is full we'll either add another deck, or better yet, just mow down a few hundred businesses and make it wider, then repeat that until Duval is no more... Look at a lesson from DALLAS:

Quote from: thelakelander on February 05, 2011, 11:21:58 AM
Does anyone know how much it cost to construct the Tampa highway and what it's annual O&M numbers are? I'm wondering how many decades or centuries will it take to break even. At this point, I assume it never will. 

A measly $820 million. http://www.dot.state.fl.us/publicinformationoffice/moredot/pdf%20files/TurnPHernandoCitrusSuncoastParkway2.pdf

QuoteThe Suncoast Parkway is costing $507m or $1.9m/lane-km ($3.1m/lane-mi). It is expected to do 9k tolls/day in its first full year of operation growing to 114k in 2010.
SOURCE: http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/2852

Also beware the corridor D option in the Florida Turnpike Studies, that would bend this sucker right over to DUVAL.

OCKLAWAHA

I'm glad they are not building the outer beltway!

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 05, 2011, 05:50:04 AM

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 04, 2011, 10:59:13 PM
from what I hear, they think they'll be able to get the northern link (Blanding to I-10) and the southern link (US 17 to I-95) built...it is the middle part that will be really hard to attract private funding.

If they're actually dumb enough to build 15 miles of unnecessary highway without any way to complete the rest of it, then they are seriously stupid. I am glad to see this one bite the dust.

well smart guy, originally it was only planned to be a 15 mile roadway conneting Blanding to I-10...then sometime in the late 1990s, the idea of connecting it all the way around to I-95 sprung up.

fact is, the traffic forecasts (i.e., demand) from Blanding north can be shown....it is from Blanding south traffic forecasts drop significantly.

Quote from: thelakelander on February 05, 2011, 11:21:58 AM
Does anyone know how much it cost to construct the Tampa highway and what it's annual O&M numbers are? I'm wondering how many decades or centuries will it take to break even. At this point, I assume it never will.  Also, if a private entity coverts 15 miles of existing road into a tollroad, will they pay the public back for cost of what's there today (ex. ROW, & road infrastructure)?

I think Tampa's Veterans Expwy probably more than breaks even....which allows the Turnpike Enterprise to subsidize the Suncoast Pkwy

Quote from: AbelH on February 05, 2011, 12:49:10 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on February 05, 2011, 11:21:58 AM
Does anyone know how much it cost to construct the Tampa highway and what it's annual O&M numbers are? I'm wondering how many decades or centuries will it take to break even. At this point, I assume it never will.  

A measly $820 million. http://www.dot.state.fl.us/publicinformationoffice/moredot/pdf%20files/TurnPHernandoCitrusSuncoastParkway2.pdf

that's for Suncoast 2...which is the road they just shelved....as Ock noted, the first part of the road cost about $500 million (year 2000 dollars).

Clearly the priority here is to provide some kind of relief to the Blanding traffic situation, and turning the existing Branan Field Rd into an expressway is a viable alternative. Will it cause more sprawl, sure. Is this the best location for such a highway? No, probably not. Can we instead provide commuter rail into Clay county? Hey, there's an idea!

Calling this project useless isn't helpful. It will definitely help the situation somewhat. But there may be better solutions. If you don't want this thing built, how about proposing a reasonable alternative? The commuter rail idea is a good one, but how likely is that? Building an overhead expressway down Blanding is an alternative that should be considered, its been done in Austin,TX. Flyovers from I295 to Blanding south and Argyle Blvd would go a long way to alleviate the bottleneck. Another option is to change the expressway plan so a new road connects Branan-Chaffey with Blanding in the College Dr area where it will do more good, instead of 5 miles south on Blanding where it effectively serves Middleburg commuters.

How about changing the outer loop plan so it crosses the river in the Fleming Island area and connects to I-95 at the proposed 9-B interchange? This would create a new commuter option and put the expressway where people actually live. I would imagine such a route would increase ridership over the currently proposed route (cross at Shands Bridge) two to three fold since the northern route would become a commuter ride. Maybe that would sweeten the pot enough that a private contractor would actually consider building the road. (Yes, I understand that this has been already proposed and rejected for some inexplicable reason)

Anyway, I hate to see projects like this get trashed out of hand. Its on the books because there is a problem that needs to be solved. If the project doesn't solve the problem as well as it should, then we fight for an alternative that works.

Because we already have railroad tracks, I vote for commuter rail as a means for solving the traffic problem on Blanding.  Or we could let the problem solve itself.  Do nothing and people will look for a more convenient place to live.

To me the solution is promote more infill and stop the growth outward.  I think most people including myself fear the outer beltway is just going to fuel the sprawl.  If the inner beltway was completely dense then ok, but it is all but that. 

Quote from: middleman on February 05, 2011, 03:24:52 PM
Clearly the priority here is to provide some kind of relief to the Blanding traffic situation, and turning the existing Branan Field Rd into an expressway is a viable alternative. Will it cause more sprawl, sure. Is this the best location for such a highway? No, probably not. Can we instead provide commuter rail into Clay county? Hey, there's an idea!

Calling this project useless isn't helpful. It will definitely help the situation somewhat. But there may be better solutions. If you don't want this thing built, how about proposing a reasonable alternative?

Middleman, the problem is the urban sprawl you concede will result is far more injurious in the long run to mobility than the short term benefit that will quickly expire as that newly enabled (and subsidized) urban sprawl mushrooms.  We need to get off this treadmill that has been running since at least WW II without a successful endgame.  The solution is higher density in already developed areas with improved connectivity led by mass transit and improved personal transit (pedestrian, bicycle, etc.).  The existing I-295/9A beltway is the foundation for the "need" for a new outer beltway.  In another generation, we will need still another "outer beltway".  This is simply not sustainable.

QuoteThe commuter rail idea is a good one, but how likely is that? Building an overhead expressway down Blanding is an alternative that should be considered, its been done in Austin,TX. Flyovers from I295 to Blanding south and Argyle Blvd would go a long way to alleviate the bottleneck. Another option is to change the expressway plan so a new road connects Branan-Chaffey with Blanding in the College Dr area where it will do more good, instead of 5 miles south on Blanding where it effectively serves Middleburg commuters.

How about changing the outer loop plan so it crosses the river in the Fleming Island area and connects to I-95 at the proposed 9-B interchange? This would create a new commuter option and put the expressway where people actually live. I would imagine such a route would increase ridership over the currently proposed route (cross at Shands Bridge) two to three fold since the northern route would become a commuter ride. Maybe that would sweeten the pot enough that a private contractor would actually consider building the road. (Yes, I understand that this has been already proposed and rejected for some inexplicable reason)

You say rail is a good idea and then simply dismiss it and only propose road based solutions.  Why are those any more feasible than rail?  In reality, the reverse is likely true.  Why do you see things only through the eyes of road builders?  This lack of vision, creativity, and flexibility is exactly why we are where we are at present.  It's time for a change in strategies.

QuoteAnyway, I hate to see projects like this get trashed out of hand. Its on the books because there is a problem that needs to be solved. If the project doesn't solve the problem as well as it should, then we fight for an alternative that works.

It's being trashed because (a) it's not feasible (that's why no private contractors bid on it), (b) it's not needed, (c) it's not the best solution if it is a solution at all (more likely an additional problem), (d) it's being pushed by special interests that don't care about the overall community good, and (e) it's political pandering by unimaginative and less than visionary politicians to like minded constituents who only think about more roads rather than a wider range of options.  The "trashing" is to support your point that if there are better solutions we should fight for them.

Aside from the special interests and their in-hand politicos, we should be thrilled by this news but also discouraged that FDOT continues to try and find a way to make it happen.  With $1.8 billion of someone's investment, we could get a heck of lot better returns on the money.  Heck with only 0.33 % of that, we could keep 53 state parks open.  With only a few percentage points of it, we could build a street car line that might bring all that urban sprawl development to downtown.

stjr, I, like most everybody here, am a huge proponent of commuter rail solutions. I would hate to be labeled "pro-roads", because that's not really the case. I just want to see transportation problems handled in a pragmatic manner. If commuter rail came to Clay county, it would absolutely put a dent in the Branding Blvd problem. But the reality is, even with rail as part of the solution, traffic bottlenecks like Blanding are not going to just go away. It is a road problem, and part of the solution has to be road solutions.

Oh, and thanks for sharing your conspiracy theories about the evil special interests. I had no idea.

Quote from: middleman on February 05, 2011, 06:52:08 PM
But the reality is, even with rail as part of the solution, traffic bottlenecks like Blanding are not going to just go away. It is a road problem, and part of the solution has to be road solutions.

The other part of the solution is to do nothing with the roads and allow the situation to 'organically' correct itself.  People will get fed up with the problem and choose to live somewhere with a better transportation situation.

Quote from: stephendare on February 05, 2011, 07:20:56 PM
Middleman. you can take STJR's word for it.  I also agree with STJR on this issue.  We should be thanking the good lord that this project is dead in its tracks.

Take STJR's word for what?

Quote from: dougskiles on February 05, 2011, 07:53:31 PM
The other part of the solution is to do nothing with the roads and allow the situation to 'organically' correct itself.  People will get fed up with the problem and choose to live somewhere with a better transportation situation.

Are you serious? Clay county has been one of the fastest growing counties in the state the past ten years. Your proposing the solution is to screw 'em and don't fix their road system and maybe they will move closer to where they work? Has that happened anywhere??? Let's get real!

Is everybody on this forum transportation purists? I mean, jeez... You've got big problems, let's find reasonable ways to fix them. It doesn't have to be roads, but it has to be a realistic solution!

Quote from: middleman on February 05, 2011, 08:39:37 PM
Your proposing the solution is to screw 'em and don't fix their road system and maybe they will move closer to where they work? Has that happened anywhere??? Let's get real!

How can you deny traffic congestion doesn't' motivate many people to move closer to work or other priorities in their lives?

There are thousands of people moving about this City to be closer to work, good schools, family, friends, shopping, the beach, or other priorities.  I haven't met many that weren't sensitive to traffic in making a final decision.  All else being equal, who wouldn't chose a location closer time-wise than not?  If travel times didn't effect people's choices, why does population density typically decrease as we move away from major employment centers?
 

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 05, 2011, 02:47:34 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on February 05, 2011, 11:21:58 AM
Does anyone know how much it cost to construct the Tampa highway and what it's annual O&M numbers are? I'm wondering how many decades or centuries will it take to break even. At this point, I assume it never will.  Also, if a private entity coverts 15 miles of existing road into a tollroad, will they pay the public back for cost of what's there today (ex. ROW, & road infrastructure)?

I think Tampa's Veterans Expwy probably more than breaks even....which allows the Turnpike Enterprise to subsidize the Suncoast Pkwy

I assume, they don't include the 3-mile, $230 million stretch of SR 60 that connects the Veteran's Expressway with I-275 & the CCC?

(http://www.mytbi.com/content/images/maps/1029200435136.jpg)
http://www.mytbi.com/projects/projectinfo.asp?projectid=72&roadID=11

My question is where do all of the people that travel Blanding daily go?  Are there enough of them going downtown or north of I-10 to even warrant this road? 

I don't think it would really do anything to relieve the congestion on Blanding.  FWIW the biggest excuse I hear from people living in Clay or St Johns is "better schools".  I bet $1bn could fix that problem pretty quick.

Middleman, Clay definitely has a congestion problem but its not because of roads and it won't be solved by building expressways all over the place.  Clay needs to take a serious look at their land use situation and better integrate it with their transportation network to start to limit the amount of trips being taken by automobile.  Auto congestion is there to stay, however a mix of revised land use policy, transit, bike and ped investments can give Clay residents a viable choice of how to get around.  Such a solution would also be hundreds of millions cheaper for taxpayers than constructing elevated expressways or giving public property to private interests who will then turn around and charge residents for infrastructure taxpayers originally funded.

Quote from: acme54321 on February 05, 2011, 09:48:56 PM
My question is where do all of the people that travel Blanding daily go?  Are there enough of them going downtown or north of I-10 to even warrant this road? 

I don't think it would really do anything to relieve the congestion on Blanding.  FWIW the biggest excuse I hear from people living in Clay or St Johns is "better schools".  I bet $1bn could fix that problem pretty quick.

The majority of trips on Blanding are short trips being taken between low density subdivisions, fast food restaurants, strip malls, gas stations, schools, etc.  Working to better integrate land use with the transportation network could help reduce the need to make these trips only by car.  Commuter rail and better bus service could help faciliate the movement of those trips being taken by car between Clay and Duval.  Unfortunately, the Branan Field Rd segment is so far to the west, all its really going to do is attract more sprawl development that will limit the potential of Cecil Commerce Center and generate more automobile trips on this struggling road network.

While I agree this road as a private venture is not viable, access to Cecil and Blanding should proceed unfettered.

Continue to acquire ROW incrementally, but a focus on urban infill should really be the priority during this time.

Commuter Rail is an option, but it is not a panacea to an outer beltway.

Ultimately, better connectivity in Clay & St John's counties will be needed, but it should happen organically through ROW acquisition and post demand buildouts.

^True.  The best solution will be a multimodal approach that places a higher priority on mixed-use infill.

Quote from: stephendare on February 05, 2011, 07:20:56 PM
Middleman. you can take STJR's word for it.  I also agree with STJR on this issue.  We should be thanking the good lord that this project is dead in its tracks.

yeah but it's not!

Quote from: thelakelander on February 05, 2011, 09:42:24 PM
I assume, they don't include the 3-mile, $230 million stretch of SR 60 that connects the Veteran's Expressway with I-275 & the CCC?

correct...because the part that is SR 60 is free...and its also free from  SR 60 to Independence...the other mile north to Hillsborough is part of the toll road

Yet without it, the tollroad's revenue would plummet.

Personally I still don't see how this beltway will help alleviate traffic on Blanding.  It seems to far to the West. 

It won't. However, it would spur sprawl, which was the original intention behind the project.

Quote from: middleman on February 05, 2011, 06:52:08 PM
stjr, I, like most everybody here, am a huge proponent of commuter rail solutions. I would hate to be labeled "pro-roads", because that's not really the case. I just want to see transportation problems handled in a pragmatic manner. If commuter rail came to Clay county, it would absolutely put a dent in the Branding Blvd problem. But the reality is, even with rail as part of the solution, traffic bottlenecks like Blanding are not going to just go away. It is a road problem, and part of the solution has to be road solutions.

Oh, and thanks for sharing your conspiracy theories about the evil special interests. I had no idea.

This project would have been poison for jacksonville's progress and development! Forget about urban sprawl! there is so much property within Jacksonville city limits that have nothing going on! closer commutes would strengthen jacksonville's economy and identity with the rest of the US. Thank God or whoever you pray to that this project bit the dust! btw i live in Oakleaf (not for long thankfully) and have to deal with all that traffic nonsense to get to Mandarin. Still glad this project tanked!!! Me, as well as many neighbors/folks i talk to about the issue agree and feel the best thing to do is move closer within the core! the reasons are obvious and maybe more research  would lead you to understand that.

Its not that the beltway is too far west, the problem is, the beltway intersects Blanding too far south, because of its proposed alignment with Branan Field road. To say that in the proposed alignment, it won't help alleviate SOME traffic on Blanding is not a fair statement. It will help keep much of the Middleburg, Asbury Lake, and surrounding development's commuter traffic off of Blanding. But a relocated highway that intersects Blanding a few miles farther north would take way more traffic off of Blanding because that alignment would be a far more efficient pressure valve, serving the Lakeside, Doctor's Inlet, and Ridgewood communities as well as those farther south. This project could conceivably be redesigned so it could be much more efficient than the current design.

With regard to urban sprawl, explain to me how long distance commuter rail, like say commuter rail into Clay or St.Johns county, doesn't contribute to urban sprawl just like a new highway will? It seems like anywhere you make travel more convenient or efficient, development will follow.

Quote from: middleman on February 06, 2011, 05:54:37 PM
Its not that the beltway is too far west, the problem is, the beltway intersects Blanding too far south, because of its proposed alignment with Branan Field road. To say that in the proposed alignment, it won't help alleviate SOME traffic on Blanding is not a fair statement. It will help keep much of the Middleburg, Asbury Lake, and surrounding development's commuter traffic off of Blanding. But a relocated highway that intersects Blanding a few miles farther north would take way more traffic off of Blanding because that alignment would be a far more efficient pressure valve, serving the Lakeside, Doctor's Inlet, and Ridgewood communities as well as those farther south. This project could conceivably be redesigned so it could be much more efficient than the current design.

With regard to urban sprawl, explain to me how long distance commuter rail, like say commuter rail into Clay or St.Johns county, doesn't contribute to urban sprawl just like a new highway will? It seems like anywhere you make travel more convenient or efficient, development will follow.

I don't think you understand....first of all, i am all for sprawl if a city has a well defined core. Jacksonville. DOESNT. 9A is a defined enough "beltway" for the city, and relatively new. Jacksonville isn't ready for a second beltway, are you kidding me??? BIG waste of money. Jacksonville's, as well as Florida's priority for Jacksonville, needs to be focused on defining the city more to the standards that people expect. And to keeping the city more centralized. Contributing billions on concrete is not necessary! That money can be put to better use within the city. Be it rail or shit i'm even down for adding more lanes to 9A (which is only 2 lanes for most of it and already talking about another beltway, WAKE UP PEOPLE!) We can't spend all focus on the westside, because the westside is not what defines Jacksonville. (thankfully)
Now yes, blanding is a nightmare but that's what we get when most focus is put on to adding another neighborhood in BFE. followed by another. followed by another.

p.s. the problems are the the beltway are BOTH too west and too south.

Quote from: middleman on February 06, 2011, 05:54:37 PM
With regard to urban sprawl, explain to me how long distance commuter rail, like say commuter rail into Clay or St.Johns county, doesn't contribute to urban sprawl just like a new highway will? It seems like anywhere you make travel more convenient or efficient, development will follow.

Not all development is the same.  You can have either sustainable or unsustainable development. Every transit trip begins and ends with walking.  Commuter rail promotes infill walkable development along an established transportation corridor (typically within a 1/2 mile radius of rail stations) while a new 46 mile expressway stimulates autocentric development in formerly virgin land.  Automobiles cover much larger distances than our feet do, which contributes to the sprawled out nature of automobile friendly development.

Quote from: middleman on February 06, 2011, 05:54:37 PM
But a relocated highway that intersects Blanding a few miles farther north would take way more traffic off of Blanding because that alignment would be a far more efficient pressure valve, serving the Lakeside, Doctor's Inlet, and Ridgewood communities as well as those farther south.

which is why folks in Clay County also want to extend College Drive north and west to meet up with the new expressway

This is just one of many examples that Lake or myself could post for you. This is Plano Texas, to the right is a large apartment-condo complex, to the left is the light rail station, and in the middle a beautiful pedestrian plaza...Nary a car in sight. The whole thing takes up maybe 3 city blocks, DOWNTOWN, and includes the Light Rail Station, a Bus Station, and for those who still want to live in suburbia, a landscaped, forested, park and ride lot is located next to the DART station (yes, real enclosed stations WITH services) which would be about a half block and all along the left side of these same tracks. Put this same amount of families in a traditional suburban development and it would cover a space like Bellair-Meadowbrook in Orange Park. Do the math, calculate how many miles of pipe, lighting, city services, streets, sidewalks, parks, etc. it takes for the taxpayer to maintain the Bellair-Meadowbrook lifestyle, and how many less dollars Plano has spent on something arguably nicer.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: dlupercio on February 06, 2011, 06:23:19 PM

I don't think you understand....first of all, i am all for sprawl if a city has a well defined core. Jacksonville. DOESNT. 9A is a defined enough "beltway" for the city, and relatively new. Jacksonville isn't ready for a second beltway, are you kidding me??? BIG waste of money. Jacksonville's, as well as Florida's priority for Jacksonville, needs to be focused on defining the city more to the standards that people expect. And to keeping the city more centralized. Contributing billions on concrete is not necessary! That money can be put to better use within the city. Be it rail or shit i'm even down for adding more lanes to 9A (which is only 2 lanes for most of it and already talking about another beltway, WAKE UP PEOPLE!) We can't spend all focus on the westside, because the westside is not what defines Jacksonville. (thankfully)
Now yes, blanding is a nightmare but that's what we get when most focus is put on to adding another neighborhood in BFE. followed by another. followed by another.

I'm sorry Dlupercio, I wasn't responding directly to your post. It was posted in response to previous posts. But, just to clarify... I'm not in favor of the beltway, at least not as its currently proposed. What I've been talking about in my recent posts is a highway that provides an alternate route for commuters north into Jax from Clay county. The proposed beltway is not needed yet and the selected route is stupid. I agree with you that the entire beltway is a big waste of money at this time.  

Quote from: thelakelander on February 06, 2011, 07:27:15 PM
Not all development is the same.  You can have either sustainable or unsustainable development. Every transit trip begins and ends with walking.  Commuter rail promotes infill walkable development along an established transportation corridor (typically within a 1/2 mile radius of rail stations) while a new 46 mile expressway stimulates autocentric development in formerly virgin land.  Automobiles cover much larger distances than our feet do, which contributes to the sprawled out nature of automobile friendly development.

With all due respect, this might be the case in densely populated urban areas, but it's not what happens in suburban or exurban areas served by commuter rail. My experience is that most of the users of commuter rail in suburban/exurban areas drive in from distant locations. Where new commuter rail routes become available, new developments are created to take advantage of it (I.E., urban sprawl). Are you denying this? Do you really believe a new commuter train station doesn't contribute to new population areas (10 mile radius) created to take advantage of the easy commuter access?

Quote from: middleman on February 07, 2011, 12:01:31 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on February 06, 2011, 07:27:15 PM
Not all development is the same.  You can have either sustainable or unsustainable development. Every transit trip begins and ends with walking.  Commuter rail promotes infill walkable development along an established transportation corridor (typically within a 1/2 mile radius of rail stations) while a new 46 mile expressway stimulates autocentric development in formerly virgin land.  Automobiles cover much larger distances than our feet do, which contributes to the sprawled out nature of automobile friendly development.

With all due respect, this might be the case in densely populated urban areas, but it's not what happens in suburban or exurban areas served by commuter rail. My experience is that most of the users of commuter rail in suburban/exurban areas drive in from distant locations. Where new commuter rail routes become available, new developments are created to take advantage of it (I.E., urban sprawl). Are you denying this?

Yes.  If its not built with transit as a central anchor then its not a Transit Oriented Development.  What you're describing can't happen without significant additional investment in roadway infrastructure and land use regulations that promote autocentric growth.  With that said, you can have a presence of both, but you can't blame it on commuter rail.  

By the way, here are three examples communities that are no different that those in Clay County have enjoyed walkable development springing up around their commuter and intercity rail stations.

Davis, CA (Amtrak Capitol Corridor)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7757-davis_station_susan_decker-flickr.jpg)

Farmington, UT (Front Runner Commuter Rail)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4716-stationpark.jpg)
Station Park - Now under construction.
http://www.centercal.com/stationpark.html (http://www.centercal.com/stationpark.html)


Santa Fe, NM (Rail Runner Commuter Rail)
(http://www.railyardpark.org/wp-content/uploads/Picture-0262-500x375.jpg)

QuoteDESTINATIONS IN THE PARK AND PLAZA
The Railyard Park + Plaza provides a special central gathering place Santa Fe residents and visitorsâ€"a place where Santa Fe comes together. Among the highlights:

A Children’s Play Area designed to promote children’s creativity and activity, including a climbing wall, a water play feature, slides, and special toddler features

An Outdoor Performance Space for concerts, movies, trapeze shows and other public events

Picnic Areas with grills and tables set amid shade trees and park gardens

5,000 feet of Bicycle and Walking Trails link to a citywide trail network

An innovative Water Harvesting System stores rainwater for plant irrigation to make the park sustainable for the dry climate of Santa Fe

The Acequia Madre, a 400-year-old irrigation ditch, feeds trees, gardens and grasses as a historic counterpart to the modern water harvesting system

Community Food Gardens filled with native and edible plants are nourished in part by the Acequia Niña, a newly created lateral ditch extending from the Acequia Madre

Drought-resistant Gardens include the beautiful Bird and Butterfly Garden and Railway Gardens

The Railyard Plaza provides space for the Santa Fe Farmers Market and other community events that draw thousands to the Railyard each week

A modern interpretation of a historic Wood Water Tower holds 40,000 gallons of rooftop rainwater and is a Railyard Plaza landmark

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/images/transit/albuquerque_rail/nm_santafe_06map_lg.jpg)
http://www.railyardpark.org/

If you want pedestrian friendly development to spring up around your rail station, you integrate your land use with the system.  If you want sprawl to be dominate, locate your stations in the middle of nowhere and don't integrate land use which will force you to spend money on.......roads.......to facilitate that style of growth.

QuoteDo you really believe a new commuter train station doesn't contribute to new population areas (10 mile radius) created to take advantage of the easy commuter access?

I don't believe you can make significant investment in roads, zone far flung properties to allow for autocentric growth and then make the claim that its there because of a rail station in Fleming Island, Downtown Green Cove or Orange Park.  To get to that point, you would have to promote and facilitate that style of growth, which has nothing to do with rail stations placed at locations that encourage infill and redevelopment.

Quote from: middleman on February 07, 2011, 12:01:31 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on February 06, 2011, 07:27:15 PM
Not all development is the same.  You can have either sustainable or unsustainable development. Every transit trip begins and ends with walking.  Commuter rail promotes infill walkable development along an established transportation corridor (typically within a 1/2 mile radius of rail stations) while a new 46 mile expressway stimulates autocentric development in formerly virgin land.  Automobiles cover much larger distances than our feet do, which contributes to the sprawled out nature of automobile friendly development.

With all due respect, this might be the case in densely populated urban areas, but it's not what happens in suburban or exurban areas served by commuter rail. My experience is that most of the users of commuter rail in suburban/exurban areas drive in from distant locations. Where new commuter rail routes become available, new developments are created to take advantage of it (I.E., urban sprawl). Are you denying this? Do you really believe a new commuter train station doesn't contribute to new population areas (10 mile radius) created to take advantage of the easy commuter access?

We have to stop somewhere and start somewhere. 

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Special%20Effects%20Images/a1.jpg)

My sentiment on the whole dumb project is the angle they are projecting the masses to travel. Granted there is probably a demand for a direct route to Cecil from Clay, but the demand into Jacksonville has to be exponentially higher.

The crazy thing with all of the demand for a cut-off to Gainesville from Jacksonville, (recently a proposed turnpike by the way), OLD MIDDLEBURG ROAD would seem to provide a ready made corridor, either into Clay or beyond toward Starke.

The other insane thing about this beltway is the way they cross the river far south of ANY population center. Hell it would be good for me and my 200 neighbors but that's about it. Which Clay County representatives signed off on boxing in the old Naval Airport, on rail, on US-highway, next to a river port?  sheer genius.

OCKLAWAHA

Improvements to Old Middleburg Road are already planned.  It just won't be a limited access facility.

Just some quick math, at Miami Beach's density, Duval county could house 9,650,000 people.  While this couldn't happen for hundreds of years, that fact that we currently aren't even at 15% of this density makes it hard for me to believe that a 2nd beltway was ever even conceived. 

There is so much develop-able land within the inner beltway. Developers in NE Florida have gotten lazy with their cookie cutter sprawl communities and our city leaders are happy to foot the bill.  This is the first time we've ever done anything to reign them in.

and everyone I talk to considers moving back into town due to how inconvenient it has become to live so far away. 

Amazing to me how those kinds of area's don't seem to get really filled in with housing developements until a "really needed spur" get installed .....thanks to the deep pockets of the taxpayers! 9B, to me, is a classic example and don't forget 9A will be upgraded just so port traffic can haul containers all over it! No vision and no plan............current port director talks big, no substance! Downtown is still not on the radar and most likely won't be!

Quote from: jcjohnpaint on February 07, 2011, 02:49:19 PM
and everyone I talk to considers moving back into town due to how inconvenient it has become to live so far away. 

and yet there are still lots of people moving to places in St. ohns County...remember, there are lots of factors at play...and when you have a young family, quality of schools is pretty high on the list

The "Beltway" is not reflective of "smart growth" or proper growth management application.
The beltway reflects decades old boosterism.In the early 1970's a beltway alignment concept officially emerged in Clay county planning maps.Reinhold Corp and General Development Corp. were key drivers and indeed the roadway alignment of that era depicted a graceful arc,comfortably swinging through Penny Farms.

Reinhold's stamp of involvement at key Brannon Chaffee and Lake Asbury "Sector Plan" is a matter of public record.

Another key "Driver" for the critical Brannon/Chaffee leg has been the erroneous promotion and image of Blanding Blvd./SR 21"alleviation",which itself was sacrificed as a major arterial due to the same county boosterism and developer pressure driving the grand Beltway image.Literally often the same faces.

The call for another alternate "North-South" roadway itself proved hauntingly erroneous,for Blanding Blvd. is not so much a "North-South" roadway but rather a Northeasterly-Southwesterly alignment and the truly North-South Brannon Chaffee alignment created an ineffectiveness - a simple geometry exercise.

Brannon/Chaffee was never designed as an effective long term "alleviation" for SR 21.
The promotional history is loaded with boomer's references to the DOT 'wanting' these projects however the DOT has made it clear that they do not "want' these unpopular roadways-the DOT takes it's direction from the local government.

As I have often noted mayor John Delaney played a pivotal role in the Corp of Engineers/Water Management District permitting for the key Brannon/Chaffee leg.(This file received an unprecedented number of FOI review requests)

The Boosters have learned to veer away from the the myriad images of "Alleviation" in favor of "economic" aspects.

We are outgrowing the erroneous narrative,ghost images,naked emperors.

Quote from: thelakelander on February 07, 2011, 06:04:16 AM
Yes.  If its not built with transit as a central anchor then its not a Transit Oriented Development.  What you're describing can't happen without significant additional investment in roadway infrastructure and land use regulations that promote autocentric growth.  With that said, you can have a presence of both, but you can't blame it on commuter rail. 

Walkable communities surrounding commuter rail terminals is great!!!!! I would love to see growth in Florida managed in such a way. I sincerely hope it happens.

Come on, I'm not blaming commuter rail for causing sprawl problems. I'm just saying that when you extend commuter rail into the suburbs and exburbs, it causes more development. Just like expressways. This is not an anti-rail position. It is to point out the reality that any improvement in transportation efficiency, whether highway or rail, promotes development. And clearly, highway improvements cause more sprawl than railway improvements. My point is that blaming highways alone for urban sprawl is disingenuous. Its caused by all transportation improvements in a metropolitan area... including improved rail service. You can't say highways are evil for causing urban sprawl when the improved rail system you promote will do the same thing.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 07, 2011, 10:40:57 AM
My sentiment on the whole dumb project is the angle they are projecting the masses to travel. Granted there is probably a demand for a direct route to Cecil from Clay, but the demand into Jacksonville has to be exponentially higher.

Ocklawaha, thank you for presenting a reasonable alternative to the problems on Blanding, and the "hated" beltway. I wish I had your skills at presentation, I would love to present a graphic of what I think the proper route for a Blanding "pressure value" route would be.

Quote from: middleman on February 07, 2011, 10:05:00 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on February 07, 2011, 06:04:16 AM
Yes.  If its not built with transit as a central anchor then its not a Transit Oriented Development.  What you're describing can't happen without significant additional investment in roadway infrastructure and land use regulations that promote autocentric growth.  With that said, you can have a presence of both, but you can't blame it on commuter rail.  

Walkable communities surrounding commuter rail terminals is great!!!!! I would love to see growth in Florida managed in such a way. I sincerely hope it happens.

Come on, I'm not blaming commuter rail for causing sprawl problems. I'm just saying that when you extend commuter rail into the suburbs and exburbs, it causes more development. Just like expressways. This is not an anti-rail position. It is to point out the reality that any improvement in transportation efficiency, whether highway or rail, promotes development.

Sure, rail stimulates development.  I don't think I've ever claimed that it didn't.  However, due to the nature of it being a pedestrian oriented transportation mode, that development tends to better utilize the land its on.  You typically end up with higher density, environmental friendly walkable mixed use development around stations.  It also tends to be infill and adaptive reuse oriented, which is opposite of greenfield development.

QuoteAnd clearly, highway improvements cause more sprawl than railway improvements. My point is that blaming highways alone for urban sprawl is disingenuous. Its caused by all transportation improvements in a metropolitan area... including improved rail service. You can't say highways are evil for causing urban sprawl when the improved rail system you promote will do the same thing.

I don't blame highways.  Autocentric land use regulations that accompany them are worse.  I only make the point that they are designed for automobiles and autocentric development is typically spread out, low density and pedestrian hostile development.  Its basically the worst style of development you can have because it spreads your public resources out too thin.

Quote from: middleman on February 07, 2011, 10:12:03 PM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 07, 2011, 10:40:57 AM
My sentiment on the whole dumb project is the angle they are projecting the masses to travel. Granted there is probably a demand for a direct route to Cecil from Clay, but the demand into Jacksonville has to be exponentially higher.

Ocklawaha, thank you for presenting a reasonable alternative to the problems on Blanding, and the "hated" beltway. I wish I had your skills at presentation, I would love to present a graphic of what I think the proper route for a Blanding "pressure value" route would be.

Why would it be ideal to destroy the quality of the neighborhoods along Old Middleburg Road because Blanding is too congested in Clay County?  At what point do we stop paying for more expensive bigger belts, admit we have a weight problem and commit to getting in shape instead?

With that said, instead of focusing on beltways and highways, the better road based solution is to create a more connective road network (where feasible) to reduce the amount of short trips on existing arterials.  Grids work because they disperse traffic by giving drivers a choice of paths to take to get to the same destination.  We should look at going back to that concept.

Quote from: middleman on February 07, 2011, 10:05:00 PM
Walkable communities surrounding commuter rail terminals is great!!!!! I would love to see growth in Florida managed in such a way. I sincerely hope it happens.

Come on, I'm not blaming commuter rail for causing sprawl problems. I'm just saying that when you extend commuter rail into the suburbs and exburbs, it causes more development.

ah...you just hit on the big question...is it the location (i.e., suburbs / leap-frog) or the form (i.e., auto-oriented) that makes something sprawl.

Here is another question.  Is development around a station placed in Orange Park, Green Cove Springs or Fleming Island sprawl or infill?

Quote from: thelakelander on February 08, 2011, 08:54:27 AM
Here is another question.  Is development around a station placed in Orange Park, Green Cove Springs or Fleming Island sprawl or infill?

At one time not too long ago the answer was decidedly "Sprawl",now "Infill".Note the initial sprawl elemnts west of Orange Park-all under the guise of "Growth Management".Future roadways over Little Black Creek for instance will prove mind boggling for some,yet these elements long promoted and "planned".
The creeping long legs of the growth creature.

The Jax Biz Journal mentions that FDOT plans to spend $54 million in the next 5 years acquiring ROW for the 47-mile Outer Beltway.  I assume this was already the plan before they couldn't find a private entity willing to lose their shirts on it.  In the event that a private entity were found, would they have to reimburse FDOT for the ROW purchase or was this supposed to be a financial incentive given off the back of taxpayers?

originally, the private entity was to reimburse FDOT...now I'm not so sure

Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 07, 2011, 10:40:57 AM

The other insane thing about this beltway is the way they cross the river far south of ANY population center. Hell it would be good for me and my 200 neighbors but that's about it. Which Clay County representatives signed off on boxing in the old Naval Airport, on rail, on US-highway, next to a river port?  sheer genius.[/b]

OCKLAWAHA

Build the river crossing between around Fleming Island, or build another river crossing from Timaquana to San Jose/University.

Imagine that, a bridge crossing that would make sense.

Which is why it will never happen. ;D

Collins Rd/I-295 Interchange to begin. Price tag $64 million

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/400669/larry-hannan/2011-02-08/construction-collins-road-interchange-i-295-begins

$54 million for Outer Beltway ROW.  $64 million for Collins Road.  Minus $3 Billion for the education of our children, the real future of Florida and engine of good jobs.  So much for being the "Jobs Governor".

Quote from: thelakelander on February 07, 2011, 10:47:37 PM

Quote from: middleman on February 07, 2011, 10:12:03 PM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 07, 2011, 10:40:57 AM
My sentiment on the whole dumb project is the angle they are projecting the masses to travel. Granted there is probably a demand for a direct route to Cecil from Clay, but the demand into Jacksonville has to be exponentially higher.

Ocklawaha, thank you for presenting a reasonable alternative to the problems on Blanding, and the "hated" beltway. I wish I had your skills at presentation, I would love to present a graphic of what I think the proper route for a Blanding "pressure value" route would be.

Why would it be ideal to destroy the quality of the neighborhoods along Old Middleburg Road because Blanding is too congested in Clay County?  At what point do we stop paying for more expensive bigger belts, admit we have a weight problem and commit to getting in shape instead?

With that said, instead of focusing on beltways and highways, the better road based solution is to create a more connective road network (where feasible) to reduce the amount of short trips on existing arterials.  Grids work because they disperse traffic by giving drivers a choice of paths to take to get to the same destination.  We should look at going back to that concept.

Didn't mean to imply the Old Middleburg Road was the ideal path of an alternate Clay commuter road. I meant that the current plan could be improved to put the road where most Clay County residents could actually use it. As a suggestion, instead of following the Branan Field Rd alignment, the plan could be realigned so the current Branan/Chaffey highway in Duval veers southeastward after entering Clay County, ultimately intersecting Blanding in the College Dr area. Later, if its ever needed, the highway could loop around to a river crossing in the Fleming Is. area. Ah, but as you already said... it won't happen because it makes sense.

I hope people are keeping track with these "isolated" projects that will ultimately add up in taxpayers footing the bill for the Outer Beltway between I-10 and Blanding.  Where is Rick Scott when you need him to permanently kill a project in the best interest of the taxpayer?

QuoteFlorida DOT to hold workshop on Branan Field frontage road project

The Florida Department of Transportation will host a public workshop Thursday to discuss building frontage roads along a 3-mile stretch of Florida 23 (Branan Field-Chaffee Road) in Clay County.

The $22 million project is to begin in early 2012.

The workshop will be an informal "open house" held between 4:30 and 6:30 p.m. in the OakLeaf Plantation Banquet Hall, 845 OakLeaf Plantation Parkway. Public comments will be taken at 6:30 p.m.; no formal presentation will b made, according to a news release.

Maps and exhibits will show how the proposed improvements are designed to help with traffic flow between Old Jennings Road (just north of Blanding Boulevard) and OakLeaf Plantation Parkway. The frontage roads will ultimately become part of the First Coast Outer Beltway, a 46-mile long interstate-type roadway linking Interstates 10 and 95 around the west side of Jacksonville.

Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/community/clay/2011-04-05/story/florida-dot-hold-workshop-branan-field-frontage-road-project#ixzz1Ig2vMt8g

I fully expect the Branan Field Expressway to be complete from I-10 to SR 21 by 2020...and I would not be surprised if it isn't even a toll road

I'm sure Hogan will try to resurrect the project.

Quote from: tufsu1 on April 05, 2011, 03:10:50 PM
I fully expect the Branan Field Expressway to be complete from I-10 to SR 21 by 2020...and I would not be surprised if it isn't even a toll road

Do you expect it to be 100% taxpayer funded or a private entity to come in, take over and reimburse the public for the money spent to date?

Quote from: thelakelander on April 05, 2011, 03:06:57 PM
I hope people are keeping track with these "isolated" projects that will ultimately add up in taxpayers footing the bill for the Outer Beltway between I-10 and Blanding.  Where is Rick Scott when you need him to permanently kill a project in the best interest of the taxpayer?

Killing benefits for the elderly and the truly needy.. The bastard  :(

Quote from: thelakelander on April 05, 2011, 03:52:19 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on April 05, 2011, 03:10:50 PM
I fully expect the Branan Field Expressway to be complete from I-10 to SR 21 by 2020...and I would not be surprised if it isn't even a toll road

Do you expect it to be 100% taxpayer funded or a private entity to come in, take over and reimburse the public for the money spent to date?

Regardless of who and how it is funded- there will always be the harmful impacts of which I am confident most MJ posters are unaware- and the fact that the boosters got away with erroneous promotions of viable "alternate" and "alleviation" to Blanding.That aspect alone is worth "proving"-bring it on!!

Quote from: thelakelander on April 05, 2011, 03:52:19 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on April 05, 2011, 03:10:50 PM
I fully expect the Branan Field Expressway to be complete from I-10 to SR 21 by 2020...and I would not be surprised if it isn't even a toll road

Do you expect it to be 100% taxpayer funded or a private entity to come in, take over and reimburse the public for the money spent to date?

funded through the FDOT work program...so yes, taxpayer funded

Quote from: north miami on April 05, 2011, 04:16:52 PM
Regardless of who and how it is funded- there will always be the harmful impacts of which I am confident most MJ posters are unaware- and the fact that the boosters got away with erroneous promotions of viable "alternate" and "alleviation" to Blanding.That aspect alone is worth "proving"-bring it on!!

careful..it is actually quite easy to show traffic alleviation (at least in the short-tetrm) on Blanding as a result of construction of the new expressway.

Quote from: middleman on February 08, 2011, 10:56:50 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on February 07, 2011, 10:47:37 PM

Quote from: middleman on February 07, 2011, 10:12:03 PM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 07, 2011, 10:40:57 AM
My sentiment on the whole dumb project is the angle they are projecting the masses to travel. Granted there is probably a demand for a direct route to Cecil from Clay, but the demand into Jacksonville has to be exponentially higher.

Ocklawaha, thank you for presenting a reasonable alternative to the problems on Blanding, and the "hated" beltway. I wish I had your skills at presentation, I would love to present a graphic of what I think the proper route for a Blanding "pressure value" route would be.

Hogwash.Face it- stunning political,planning trip ups.As former Clay Planning Director Dick Post warned-we indeed Bought The Farm.

Proof positive too many posts on too many subjects-and master of few.

There is no alternative to Blanding thanks to geopgraphy-broad wetland belts that present challenges both regulatory and costly if deemed buildable.Consider the horrendous cost of proposed Kingsley Ave West extension-basically a bridge across a broad wetland belt.
Recall earlier NM posts buried within this MJ pile- early 1970's Clay County promotions of an alternate to Blanding-this truly an alternate-a new alignment to the west of Blanding and paralleling Blanding-this concept imploded due to opposition in Ridgewood, in the path of the proposed route-so the path was shifted further west....and right in to the broad Little Black creek wetland belt.No go.
The closest alternative alignment had to skip farther to the west,to the next upland ridge,a north south route (recall basic Kindergarten lesson here; after all Blanding is Northeasterly/Southwesterly)-due mostly to accommodate Gulfstream's 9,000 acre development proposal.Enter Bruce Smathers,the likes of Reinhold et al.

Quote from: tufsu1 on April 05, 2011, 04:19:07 PM

Quote from: north miami on April 05, 2011, 04:16:52 PM
Regardless of who and how it is funded- there will always be the harmful impacts of which I am confident most MJ posters are unaware- and the fact that the boosters got away with erroneous promotions of viable "alternate" and "alleviation" to Blanding.That aspect alone is worth "proving"-bring it on!!

careful..it is actually quite easy to show traffic alleviation (at least in the short-tetrm) on Blanding as a result of construction of the new expressway.

Tufsu it is the likes of your outlook that has served the public it's own head.
Do you realize how short sighted your premise is? The BC boosters were much more sophisticated.
Oh pardon me-I am always thinking not so short term.And justice.

I know all about "network alleviation".

Course there was a dose of short term image.The best short term alleviation image was when MPO Calvin Burney stated 30,000 cars a day would use Brannon/Chaffee "as soon as it opens".Yea!!
The reference was to 30,000 ADT- and a great deal of the future ADT was to come from future new development Brannon Chaffee would create.
The Burney episode is a matter of public record/Florida Times Union and personal file.It's simply a wacky episode within a decades long narrative.

Losing the Brannon Chaffee Illusion will be more valuable to future planning efforts elsewhere than thwarting BC buildout.

If you don't build the frontage rd for Branan Field, you will be limiting access as SR23 is built down to Blanding.

Without the frontage rd, people in the neighborhoods off of Branan Field will have to route down by Tynes to Old Jennings and then back onto SR23.

The current 2 lane rd is going to be either part of the new 4 lane SR23 or taken away altogether.

Is it a wise idea? Who's to say. Either way, SR23 from I-10 to Blanding cannot be completed properly. And yes, SR23 is a viable route for those from Clay County into Downtown Jacksonville via I10. Its quicker if you are further south on Blanding to go south to Brannan Field and back up to get to I10 than it is to go Blanding to I-295 most times due to traffic.

You want to keep downtown going/rebuilding? Don't force all of Clay County to keep commuting to the southside, you will lose some of your workforce. Right now its a choice of two evils, Blanding and the Buckman, or Blanding/US17 to downtown.

Ask around your offices, you'd be surprised at the number of clay county residents working there.

And people won't leave their cars as quickly as a lot on this forum assume. The cars might get smaller and slower, but people will still have them.

At some point, growth needs to pay for itself.  Has a study been done to show what the overall cost (capital costs, long term annual maintenance costs, strain on public safety and services, etc.) of upgrading SR 23 to freeway status will be?  Also, has there been any consideration to placing tolls (even if a private entity does not pop up) so that those who live in the area pay their fair share for their infrastructure needs?

Not to make every one of my posts related to the latest census data, but there are 4 census tracts along Blanding (between SR-23 & I-295) that each lost 10-20% of their population from 2000-2010. Maybe we can let the population bleed some more, become less middle-class, and have more retail die, and then use eminent domain to plop down a good ol' fashion 20th Street-style expressway through town! Problem solved! :D

I'm surprised no one has touched on the new County Manager being the former head of the FDOT Stephanie Kopelousos.  Her family is well connected into the fabric of the Clay Good Ol' Boy network and the boosters.  They can't let this project die, they have spent decades positioning their assets while planning this road to make the most money for their interests.  FDOT loves building roads, who better to get to run the county with connections to people who love building roads.

Projects like Saratoga Springs DRI, Reynolds Industrial Park, Clay County Port and more GOB holdings are what has this project crossing the river so far south. 

For years it was sold to Clay County residents as a cure to Blanding & the Buckman, now it's being sold as an economic stimulator....Brilliant!  >:(

Gator, you touched on all the reasons why this project may never go away.

Quote from: Jumpinjack on April 06, 2011, 07:15:04 AM
Gator, you touched on all the reasons why this project may never go away.

Interestingly Kopelousos slowed the project down while at FDOT...in fact, the local district at the time secretary was very annoyed that she refused to put the job out to bid.

Her effected assets weren't properly arranged yet?

Just throwing it out there. Cynical? Yes.

Apologies if I am off the mark.

Being cynical myself, it is possible she withheld the advertisement because she knew nobody would bid....and if that had happened publicly, it might have killed the project once and for all.

Let the part from Blanding to St Johns County die, finish the part from Blanding to I-10.

What would $22 million do for our schools right now?  Is this road improvement so important that it should come before education?

Scott's agenda appears to be reducible to one item:  Unfettered growth at warp speed.  Axe all other budget priorities, kill all environmental and growth management regulations, build roads at any cost, eliminate all taxes that might distract from growth at any cost, deregulate developers and their cronies, rape all water and other natural resources to enable growth, growth, growth, etc.  You get the idea.

What Scott fails to see is, by destroying quality of life, he may be setting a table for visitors who will never come.  Florida may become the biggest collection of ghost towns ever assembled.

Scott is turning out to be a simpleton of the first magnitude.  Even members of his own party can't "reason" with him.  That's the danger of blind party loyalty.  Just think what might have been had Alex Sink received just 1% more of the vote.

Quote from: stjr on April 06, 2011, 07:57:23 PM
What would $22 million do for our schools right now?

How about $22 million that we get to decide what to do with locally?  How often do we hear Scott and his followers cry about Washington telling them what to do and how to spend "our" money - only to turn around and do the very same thing to the state's local governments?

Well his approval rating are down so much ...that most of the people that voted for him don't like his policies now.  Come on people it isn't like he lied.  He told us how he was going to $%$^ this state up the butt.  And come on we all know he was a simpleton crook!

I didn't know... and I didn't vote for the slimeball

Really guys and gals? This is REALLY hard to figure out? How about this:

FREEWAY OR TURNPIKE = About $19 Million per-LANE MILE or 1 lane - 1 mile. (Tampa Crosstown costs) $19 million per lane mile x 13 lanes = $247 Million per mile of FREEway. http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/4555

LIGHT RAIL = $35 Million per-TWO track installation. http://urban.csuohio.edu/capstone08/scenario_three/Scenario%203-Composite-Final.pdf

RAPID STREETCAR = Generally a streetcar system with some light rail attributes such as median or side of the road private right-of-way, and stations spaced farther apart. would cost considerably less then LIGHT RAIL.

So if the object is to get from Point A to Point B, Point C has no place in the discussion. I color coded a map laying out the options readily available to us today. Commuter Rail, Light Rail or Streetcar is simply a highway that never needs to be widened. Bus Rapid Transit is a standard or slightly enhanced transit bus running on exclusive lanes.

So in this excercise the RED lines represent the FREEWAYS or TURNPIKES as planned/or existing.
The Yellow lines represent the Bus Rapid Transit already proposed by JTA.
The Teal, Blue, Rose and Green lines represent our opportunity for Commuter Rail on existing track (with the exception of a 3 mile stretch of the Rose line that would need to be reconstructed on city owned right-of-way.

FINALLY THAT PURPLE LINE (gee wonder why THAT color?) This line represents RAPID STREETCAR - A FORM OF LIGHT RAIL using streetcar vehicles entrain, and light rail style track. What I've done is simply extended the route of the already proposed JTA STREETCAR from Park and King, west on King to Post to Normandy to Lennox to Old Middleburg to Ricker Road... WIDE OPEN BOYS AND GIRLS. check the illustration on how it could be done, shall we reinvent the wheel? Streetcar line capacity would be about 2.5 times the FREEway, but it would NOT take any cars off the road - THAT my friends is a choice you'd have to make. 

Ock,

That green line touches me in a special place.  Don't worry though; I don't mean "that" place.  I mean a utilitarian place in my soul.  If we could start there, I would be ecstatic.

My 18 mpg would sit in the driveway endlessly.  I could visit family, friends, work, shopping, entertainment on that green line alone.   I could walk to a station without a doubt. 

Oh, light commuter rail you seductive temptress.....

Ock,

Where are the people going to drive from in Clay County to get to the Commuter Rail or Rapid Street Car?

You cannot just magically make stations appear overnight, ending the need for roads immediately. You will need to plan to handle current needs and growth to get to that spot.

I see a major folly in your plans with the street car. Looks good on a map, but not so good in reality. Going down Firestone and Rampart to Argyle might work, but there is not a lot of right of way there to build it. Its a two lane rd, and you would have to buy a ton of land to expand the rd to handle the street car in the middle.
You would also need to fight Argyle Homeowners Association. They block anything connecting Argyle to Wells Rd. Have done so for years.
Then you would have to fight Orange Park Country Club. Many of those members helped fund the campaigns for many of the Clay County Commissioners.
Then you plan on shoving it right down the middle of RidgeCrest, Fox Chase and other neighborhoods. That wouldn't fly either to those homeowners.

You have to stay the blanding, US 17 or Branan-Chafee corridors to avoid bulldozing neighborhoods. You complain about I-95 tearing down homes with the overland bridge, but this would tear up more homes.

I'm sure my opinion on the matter will bring great opposition for Clay County residents but personal responsibility needs to play a role at some point because the taxpayer doesn't have to funds to continue to subsidize this horrible growth pattern we've developed.  If you move near an airport runway, you should expect jet noise.  If you move next to a railroad, expect train noise.  If you move to a location that requires you to drive down Blanding, expect traffic.  Its been that way for decades now and its not going to change if the sprawly linear corridor development pattern doesn't (Outer Beltway in place or not).  

Now this isn't to say alternative paths should not be developed.  However, I am saying that they should be designed in a manner that doesn't cause burden on everyone else by putting an additional strain on public financial resources.  For the Outer Beltway, this could mean a toll road that isn't limited express, like a few they have around Disney.  Or it could mean, having to make some tough decisions down there and plowing through some golf courses, wetlands and subdivisions to carve out a more effective semi-gridded network.  Or doing nothing at all and living with complete gridlock.  In all three cases, land use will need to change to encourage more mixed use and dense infill development to take existing and future vehicle trips off the streets.

FOLSOM, CA

Nobody is saying this is where the light rail or rapid streetcar would be, but it would certainly be worth a look as for the most part it would be all side of the road or median running. There is very little difference between the Folsom Photo, and the two along the Jax Westside.  You sound like you think the counties would be building the Santa Fe through the neighborhood... NO WAY, this is urban rail and is as quiet as the Skyway, faster, and cleaner then our bus fleet.  As Lake has said, Clay and West Duval residents either need to face their demons or learn to live with them, mass transit of any kind is the least expensive way to give every one of you a choice. In this case a much more environmentally friendly and livable choice.



OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Gators312 on April 05, 2011, 10:07:09 PM
I'm surprised no one has touched on the new County Manager being the former head of the FDOT Stephanie Kopelousos.  Her family is well connected into the fabric of the Clay Good Ol' Boy network and the boosters.


For years it was sold to Clay County residents as a cure to Blanding & the Buckman, now it's being sold as an economic stimulator....Brilliant!  >:(

Good call Gators- a bunch easily flies over the head of the public and many narratives not dared recited even when in the know.
Kopelousos well embedded in Brannon Chaffe.I also recall a group of women all messing about and a particular interchange emerging at about the north half of Section 18,T4S. Follow Clay county official record book page 270-214 to present.

quote fixed-Ock

And what I am saying is the rich old codgers in Clay living in the back of Orange Park Country Club will fight tooth and nail to prevent this from touching their neighborhood. (Would Deerwood allow a commuter train through their neighborhood? Or Sawgrass?) OPCC is a closed neighborhood with security guards.

You simply cannot build things easily in Ridgecrest and Foxridge. I suggest Ock and Lake need to drive in those neighborhoods. Foxridge is hill after hill. So you either dig out the hills (adding cost) or make the route follow neighborhood roads and loop back around itself so much that you go 1 mile just to go 1000 feet south. There is also limited ROW there. You would have to tear down houses somewhere to build it, unless you plan on going down existing roads, in that case, you need to rip up and move utilities because Bellsouth and Comcast and AT&T all built them 5 feet off of the road.

To make commuter/light/anything rail, you need to follow the Blanding/US 17 corridors.

I was born and raised on the westside, so yes I do still have a ton of ties to Jacksonville, not just work related. The westside and Clay County have been nothing but afterthought after afterthought to regional planning. Let's tear down a theater and build strip mall on Blanding @ Argyle. And while we are at it, let's add a new entrance for Starbucks. Surely those driving on Blanding won't mind the extra stop as they need their coffee to go sit in bumper to bumper traffic.

I'm seeing nothing but moaning and groaning over Collins Rd interchange as well. Hell the area doesn't need that, let's add more cars to Blanding, it can handle it.

We are up to seven pages of speculation here........a collective fart in a whirlwind.

Refer to the Brannon Chaffee Sector Plan for definitive insights,future roadways.

Including a Little Black Creek wetland belt crossing-after all, Brannon Chaffee alignment to the west of Orange Park is there because that is the first bit of dry ground for a ways from Blanding Blvd.... the significant wetland belt complex is a major NE Florida water recharge region,posing many regulatory,monetary and political challenges as if a giant Tic Tack Toe game.All to be 'mitigated' and 'growth managed'- casting Clay's Conservative Green and Better image for the crock that it is.

Key function of these future roadways maps is continued promotion of the alleviation image's proven sales tool employed in inducing new residents....."Hey,we promise Clay county soon won't affect you like this......cars jammin',scammin'".

Future rail ROW accommodation a central BC selling point-I recall the ROW aligned with the main BC roadway-don't recall East/West accommodation.

Quote from: jandar on April 08, 2011, 10:18:11 AM
You simply cannot build things easily in Ridgecrest and Foxridge. I suggest Ock and Lake need to drive in those neighborhoods. Foxridge is hill after hill. So you either dig out the hills (adding cost) or make the route follow neighborhood roads and loop back around itself so much that you go 1 mile just to go 1000 feet south. There is also limited ROW there. You would have to tear down houses somewhere to build it, unless you plan on going down existing roads, in that case, you need to rip up and move utilities because Bellsouth and Comcast and AT&T all built them 5 feet off of the road.

I'm very familiar with the area.  I've also not suggested adding any type of rail in Clay, other than commuter rail down the CSX A line.  What I have stated is that the rest of the taxpayers should not be on the hook for continued poor planning in Clay County and that some tough decisions will need to be made in the middle of sprawlsville.  Those decisions should include:

1. Accepting personal responsibility for moving into/creating gridlock and living with it (or move to a better planned environment).

2. Revise land use regulations to allow for denser, mixed use infill and redevelopment to take place, which over the long run, will reduce the need for residents to get in the car for many trips that should be made on foot or alternative forms of mobility.

3. Pay to play.  If the goal is to keep the unsustainable development pattern on track, then residents should be forced to pay for their fair share instead of having the rest of the community subsidize this pattern of growth.  This essentially means FDOT should develop Chaffee as a toll road, right from the start.  This will at least lower the subsidy.

4. Clay should consider a mobility plan.  In this scenario, at least new development would be forced to pay its fair share for the financial strain it puts on the surrounding infrastructure and neighborhoods.

As for the Duval section, I find this whole thing quite rediculous.  We're basically paying for infrastructure and supporting concepts that drive development and life right out of our own county.

Quote from: thelakelander on April 08, 2011, 11:51:38 AM

Quote from: jandar on April 08, 2011, 10:18:11 AM
You simply cannot build things easily in Ridgecrest and Foxridge. I suggest Ock and Lake need to drive in those neighborhoods. Foxridge is hill after hill. So you either dig out the hills (adding cost) or make the route follow neighborhood roads and loop back around itself so much that you go 1 mile just to go 1000 feet south. There is also limited ROW there. You would have to tear down houses somewhere to build it, unless you plan on going down existing roads, in that case, you need to rip up and move utilities because Bellsouth and Comcast and AT&T all built them 5 feet off of the road.

I'm very familiar with the area.  I've also not suggested adding any type of rail in Clay, other than commuter rail down the CSX A line.  What I have stated is that the rest of the taxpayers should not be on the hook for continued poor planning in Clay County and that some tough decisions will need to be made in the middle of sprawlsville.  Those decisions should include:

1. Accepting personal responsibility for moving into/creating gridlock and living with it (or move to a better planned environment).

2. Revise land use regulations to allow for denser, mixed use infill and redevelopment to take place, which over the long run, will reduce the need for residents to get in the car for many trips that should be made on foot or alternative forms of mobility.

3. Pay to play.  If the goal is to keep the unsustainable development pattern on track, then residents should be forced to pay for their fair share instead of having the rest of the community subsidize this pattern of growth.  This essentially means FDOT should develop Chaffee as a toll road, right from the start.  This will at least lower the subsidy.

4. Clay should consider a mobility plan.  In this scenario, at least new development would be forced to pay its fair share for the financial strain it puts on the surrounding infrastructure and neighborhoods.

As for the Duval section, I find this whole thing quite rediculous.  We're basically paying for infrastructure and supporting concepts that drive development and life right out of our own county.

WOW THIS IS YOUR 12,000th Post. I totally agree and find it ridiculous that Duval has to fan out the money to other counties for some personal financial gains by private companies and politicians.

-Josh

Quote from: jandar on April 08, 2011, 10:18:11 AM
And what I am saying is the rich old codgers in Clay living in the back of Orange Park Country Club will fight tooth and nail to prevent this from touching their neighborhood. (Would Deerwood allow a commuter train through their neighborhood? Or Sawgrass?) OPCC is a closed neighborhood with security guards.

Would they bend together to stop a city bus from passing in front? Streetcar is a similar vehicle only quieter.

QuoteYou simply cannot build things easily in Ridgecrest and Foxridge. I suggest Ock and Lake need to drive in those neighborhoods. Foxridge is hill after hill. So you either dig out the hills (adding cost) or make the route follow neighborhood roads and loop back around itself so much that you go 1 mile just to go 1000 feet south. There is also limited ROW there. You would have to tear down houses somewhere to build it, unless you plan on going down existing roads, in that case, you need to rip up and move utilities because Bellsouth and Comcast and AT&T all built them 5 feet off of the road.

Nobody said this would be an "easy" project for any team, but the clock is ticking on Orange Park/Middleburg where we either stop development (and thus job creation) or we give up the asphalt. Sure you CAN build streetcar in that type of neighborhood, streetcars typically handle 5-6% grades with ease, and some handle 12%. Where you encounter an area without right of way space for private running, you simply go down the street like any city bus would. Lastly Streetcar and/or Light Rail, IS NOT COMMUTER RAIL.

QuoteTo make commuter/light/anything rail, you need to follow the Blanding/US 17 corridors.

No you don't, Light Rail/Streetcar can go ANYWHERE a bus can go, with the addition of elevated, subway, or railroad track. Why would anyone want to tie such a great vehicle down with gridlock like Blanding or Roosevelt.

QuoteI was born and raised on the westside, so yes I do still have a ton of ties to Jacksonville, not just work related. The westside and Clay County have been nothing but afterthought after afterthought to regional planning. Let's tear down a theater and build strip mall on Blanding @ Argyle. And while we are at it, let's add a new entrance for Starbucks. Surely those driving on Blanding won't mind the extra stop as they need their coffee to go sit in bumper to bumper traffic.

I was in the Westside before I could walk, and likewise grew up there. The reasons for the traffic cluster F@#k is the Ortega River, Cedar River and Fishing Creek, there is very limited space to create any more corridors north from Orange Park. The best solution is no more pavement and the addition of commuter rail and streetcar.

QuoteI'm seeing nothing but moaning and groaning over Collins Rd interchange as well. Hell the area doesn't need that, let's add more cars to Blanding, it can handle it.

The best and by far the least expensive solution is no more pavement, and the addition of commuter rail and streetcar.


OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: north miami on April 08, 2011, 11:22:44 AM
We are up to seven pages of speculation here........a collective fart in a whirlwind.

Refer to the Brannon Chaffee Sector Plan for definitive insights,future roadways.

I don't agree north miami! I stated from the start this was an example of how this might be done without adding asphalt. Immediately we got the response that was more typical of the 101 ways rail won't work in Florida... So Lake and I are merely using this hypothetical street railway as a springboard to educate our city to something most of them have only seen in the movies.

In that respect, it's anything BUT a fart in a whirlwind, as years of NOT doing this have resulted in the policy's of one RICK SCOTT and Company.

OCKLAWAHA

I totally agree and find it ridiculous that Duval has to fan out the money to other counties for some personal financial gains by private companies and politicians.



The Jacksonville Chamber of Commerce core leadership includes the likes of Jack Myers;Reinhold Corporation,profiled in Florida Trend magazine as "one to watch" re central Clay County land holding development efforts.Reinhold has been a key Beltway 'driver',immersed in Brannon Chaffee and Lake Asbury Sector Plan initiatives.

JEA has provided key infrastructure to outlying counties,crucial implementation to many controversial developments.This aspect hardly recognized.

Jacksonville was the willing Chump in the "Jacksonville Millionth Mania" celebration hosted by Barnett bank and the City of Jacksonville Special Events office-fire works down town!!....celebrating "Jacksonville's" Millionth Resident- a total fudge of the numbers-only by including surrounding county population could "Jacksonville" muster the coveted bench mark.
Carl Hiaasen revealed the whole sordid matter for what it was in a hard hitting editorial that has been included in the hard cover edition of the compilation of his finest editorials;"Kick Ass".

Geez, all of a sudden people forgot about the North Florida TPO.

Did I ever say Jacksonville needed to pay for other counties? Nope, but they do need to stop ignoring the westside and northside. Those are still Jacksonville city limits and damn sure don't get the attention that the southside and beaches get. For years, the I295/Blanding exchange was mishandled and the lights mis-timed, the lights were set to allow traffic faster onto Blanding from Argyle and Youngerman at the expense of Blanding coming out of Clay County.

I exchange dozens of emails with the FDOT and finally got them to check the light cycles, which they did modify a tad.

Face the facts folks, this site is named Metrojacksonville.com not UrbanJacksonville.com or SouthsideRiversideDowntownJacksonville.com

When you mention Blanding/I295, I am talking property inside Jacksonville city limits.
The JTA wants to handle Clay County mass transport, but only provides a couple of express buses and 2-3 buses that only visit Wells Rd and 1 to Kingsley Ave.