Outer Beltway Plan Up In Smoke!

[tufsu1]

Does anyone know how much it cost to construct the Tampa highway and what it's annual O&M numbers are? I'm wondering how many decades or centuries will it take to break even. At this point, I assume it never will.  Also, if a private entity coverts 15 miles of existing road into a tollroad, will they pay the public back for cost of what's there today (ex. ROW, & road infrastructure)?

I think Tampa's Veterans Expwy probably more than breaks even....which allows the Turnpike Enterprise to subsidize the Suncoast Pkwy

[tufsu1]

Does anyone know how much it cost to construct the Tampa highway and what it's annual O&M numbers are? I'm wondering how many decades or centuries will it take to break even. At this point, I assume it never will.  

A measly $820 million. http://www.dot.state.fl.us/publicinformationoffice/moredot/pdf%20files/TurnPHernandoCitrusSuncoastParkway2.pdf

that's for Suncoast 2...which is the road they just shelved....as Ock noted, the first part of the road cost about $500 million (year 2000 dollars).

[middleman]

Clearly the priority here is to provide some kind of relief to the Blanding traffic situation, and turning the existing Branan Field Rd into an expressway is a viable alternative. Will it cause more sprawl, sure. Is this the best location for such a highway? No, probably not. Can we instead provide commuter rail into Clay county? Hey, there's an idea!

Calling this project useless isn't helpful. It will definitely help the situation somewhat. But there may be better solutions. If you don't want this thing built, how about proposing a reasonable alternative? The commuter rail idea is a good one, but how likely is that? Building an overhead expressway down Blanding is an alternative that should be considered, its been done in Austin,TX. Flyovers from I295 to Blanding south and Argyle Blvd would go a long way to alleviate the bottleneck. Another option is to change the expressway plan so a new road connects Branan-Chaffey with Blanding in the College Dr area where it will do more good, instead of 5 miles south on Blanding where it effectively serves Middleburg commuters.

How about changing the outer loop plan so it crosses the river in the Fleming Island area and connects to I-95 at the proposed 9-B interchange? This would create a new commuter option and put the expressway where people actually live. I would imagine such a route would increase ridership over the currently proposed route (cross at Shands Bridge) two to three fold since the northern route would become a commuter ride. Maybe that would sweeten the pot enough that a private contractor would actually consider building the road. (Yes, I understand that this has been already proposed and rejected for some inexplicable reason)

Anyway, I hate to see projects like this get trashed out of hand. Its on the books because there is a problem that needs to be solved. If the project doesn't solve the problem as well as it should, then we fight for an alternative that works.

[dougskiles]

Because we already have railroad tracks, I vote for commuter rail as a means for solving the traffic problem on Blanding.  Or we could let the problem solve itself.  Do nothing and people will look for a more convenient place to live.

[jcjohnpaint]

To me the solution is promote more infill and stop the growth outward.  I think most people including myself fear the outer beltway is just going to fuel the sprawl.  If the inner beltway was completely dense then ok, but it is all but that. 

[stjr]

Clearly the priority here is to provide some kind of relief to the Blanding traffic situation, and turning the existing Branan Field Rd into an expressway is a viable alternative. Will it cause more sprawl, sure. Is this the best location for such a highway? No, probably not. Can we instead provide commuter rail into Clay county? Hey, there's an idea!

Calling this project useless isn't helpful. It will definitely help the situation somewhat. But there may be better solutions. If you don't want this thing built, how about proposing a reasonable alternative?

Middleman, the problem is the urban sprawl you concede will result is far more injurious in the long run to mobility than the short term benefit that will quickly expire as that newly enabled (and subsidized) urban sprawl mushrooms.  We need to get off this treadmill that has been running since at least WW II without a successful endgame.  The solution is higher density in already developed areas with improved connectivity led by mass transit and improved personal transit (pedestrian, bicycle, etc.).  The existing I-295/9A beltway is the foundation for the "need" for a new outer beltway.  In another generation, we will need still another "outer beltway".  This is simply not sustainable.

The commuter rail idea is a good one, but how likely is that? Building an overhead expressway down Blanding is an alternative that should be considered, its been done in Austin,TX. Flyovers from I295 to Blanding south and Argyle Blvd would go a long way to alleviate the bottleneck. Another option is to change the expressway plan so a new road connects Branan-Chaffey with Blanding in the College Dr area where it will do more good, instead of 5 miles south on Blanding where it effectively serves Middleburg commuters.

How about changing the outer loop plan so it crosses the river in the Fleming Island area and connects to I-95 at the proposed 9-B interchange? This would create a new commuter option and put the expressway where people actually live. I would imagine such a route would increase ridership over the currently proposed route (cross at Shands Bridge) two to three fold since the northern route would become a commuter ride. Maybe that would sweeten the pot enough that a private contractor would actually consider building the road. (Yes, I understand that this has been already proposed and rejected for some inexplicable reason)

You say rail is a good idea and then simply dismiss it and only propose road based solutions.  Why are those any more feasible than rail?  In reality, the reverse is likely true.  Why do you see things only through the eyes of road builders?  This lack of vision, creativity, and flexibility is exactly why we are where we are at present.  It's time for a change in strategies.

Anyway, I hate to see projects like this get trashed out of hand. Its on the books because there is a problem that needs to be solved. If the project doesn't solve the problem as well as it should, then we fight for an alternative that works.

It's being trashed because (a) it's not feasible (that's why no private contractors bid on it), (b) it's not needed, (c) it's not the best solution if it is a solution at all (more likely an additional problem), (d) it's being pushed by special interests that don't care about the overall community good, and (e) it's political pandering by unimaginative and less than visionary politicians to like minded constituents who only think about more roads rather than a wider range of options.  The "trashing" is to support your point that if there are better solutions we should fight for them.

Aside from the special interests and their in-hand politicos, we should be thrilled by this news but also discouraged that FDOT continues to try and find a way to make it happen.  With $1.8 billion of someone's investment, we could get a heck of lot better returns on the money.  Heck with only 0.33 % of that, we could keep 53 state parks open.  With only a few percentage points of it, we could build a street car line that might bring all that urban sprawl development to downtown.

[middleman]

stjr, I, like most everybody here, am a huge proponent of commuter rail solutions. I would hate to be labeled "pro-roads", because that's not really the case. I just want to see transportation problems handled in a pragmatic manner. If commuter rail came to Clay county, it would absolutely put a dent in the Branding Blvd problem. But the reality is, even with rail as part of the solution, traffic bottlenecks like Blanding are not going to just go away. It is a road problem, and part of the solution has to be road solutions.

Oh, and thanks for sharing your conspiracy theories about the evil special interests. I had no idea.

[dougskiles]

But the reality is, even with rail as part of the solution, traffic bottlenecks like Blanding are not going to just go away. It is a road problem, and part of the solution has to be road solutions.

The other part of the solution is to do nothing with the roads and allow the situation to 'organically' correct itself.  People will get fed up with the problem and choose to live somewhere with a better transportation situation.

[middleman]

Middleman. you can take STJR's word for it.  I also agree with STJR on this issue.  We should be thanking the good lord that this project is dead in its tracks.

Take STJR's word for what?

[middleman]

The other part of the solution is to do nothing with the roads and allow the situation to 'organically' correct itself.  People will get fed up with the problem and choose to live somewhere with a better transportation situation.

Are you serious? Clay county has been one of the fastest growing counties in the state the past ten years. Your proposing the solution is to screw 'em and don't fix their road system and maybe they will move closer to where they work? Has that happened anywhere??? Let's get real!

Is everybody on this forum transportation purists? I mean, jeez... You've got big problems, let's find reasonable ways to fix them. It doesn't have to be roads, but it has to be a realistic solution!

[stjr]

Your proposing the solution is to screw 'em and don't fix their road system and maybe they will move closer to where they work? Has that happened anywhere??? Let's get real!

How can you deny traffic congestion doesn't' motivate many people to move closer to work or other priorities in their lives?

There are thousands of people moving about this City to be closer to work, good schools, family, friends, shopping, the beach, or other priorities.  I haven't met many that weren't sensitive to traffic in making a final decision.  All else being equal, who wouldn't chose a location closer time-wise than not?  If travel times didn't effect people's choices, why does population density typically decrease as we move away from major employment centers?
 

[thelakelander]

Does anyone know how much it cost to construct the Tampa highway and what it's annual O&M numbers are? I'm wondering how many decades or centuries will it take to break even. At this point, I assume it never will.  Also, if a private entity coverts 15 miles of existing road into a tollroad, will they pay the public back for cost of what's there today (ex. ROW, & road infrastructure)?

I think Tampa's Veterans Expwy probably more than breaks even....which allows the Turnpike Enterprise to subsidize the Suncoast Pkwy

I assume, they don't include the 3-mile, $230 million stretch of SR 60 that connects the Veteran's Expressway with I-275 & the CCC?


http://www.mytbi.com/projects/projectinfo.asp?projectid=72&roadID=11

[acme54321]

My question is where do all of the people that travel Blanding daily go?  Are there enough of them going downtown or north of I-10 to even warrant this road? 

I don't think it would really do anything to relieve the congestion on Blanding.  FWIW the biggest excuse I hear from people living in Clay or St Johns is "better schools".  I bet $1bn could fix that problem pretty quick.

[thelakelander]

Middleman, Clay definitely has a congestion problem but its not because of roads and it won't be solved by building expressways all over the place.  Clay needs to take a serious look at their land use situation and better integrate it with their transportation network to start to limit the amount of trips being taken by automobile.  Auto congestion is there to stay, however a mix of revised land use policy, transit, bike and ped investments can give Clay residents a viable choice of how to get around.  Such a solution would also be hundreds of millions cheaper for taxpayers than constructing elevated expressways or giving public property to private interests who will then turn around and charge residents for infrastructure taxpayers originally funded.

[thelakelander]

My question is where do all of the people that travel Blanding daily go?  Are there enough of them going downtown or north of I-10 to even warrant this road? 

I don't think it would really do anything to relieve the congestion on Blanding.  FWIW the biggest excuse I hear from people living in Clay or St Johns is "better schools".  I bet $1bn could fix that problem pretty quick.

The majority of trips on Blanding are short trips being taken between low density subdivisions, fast food restaurants, strip malls, gas stations, schools, etc.  Working to better integrate land use with the transportation network could help reduce the need to make these trips only by car.  Commuter rail and better bus service could help faciliate the movement of those trips being taken by car between Clay and Duval.  Unfortunately, the Branan Field Rd segment is so far to the west, all its really going to do is attract more sprawl development that will limit the potential of Cecil Commerce Center and generate more automobile trips on this struggling road network.