Metro Jacksonville

HELP!!!!

We moved to Springfield -- N. Pearl Street between 6th & 7th -- in May last year.  Like many properties here, ours is an old (1906) former duplex renovated in 1995 and converted to a two-story single family property of approx 2,500-sq-feet.

Our first JEA bill (July 2010) was $525.  Having moved here from Wisconsin where our monthly utility bill -- electric, gas, water & sewer -- was a budgeted $272/month, we literally freaked upon opening the JEA envelope.

We had JEA come out to do an energy audit, as well as requested proposals from three separate HVAC companies.  All of their recommendations were followed:

We replaced the upper level HVAC unit with a top-of-the-line, high energy-efficient 15 Seer unit.  Also replaced with new energy-efficient appliances: our washer, dryer, refrigerator, and dishwasher.  Insulation was added in the attic and an additional "return" was installed on the second level.

Slowly but surely, our JEA bills dropped to about $215 per month (Sept, Oct & Nov 2010).  Then our current bill arrived: $525 of which $430 was for the electric.  Yikes!

Granted, it's been cold ... and the old windows in this house make it drafty.  But we've kept our thermostats set at 67 degrees and never, ever used the auxiliary heat--just the heat pump.

At this point, we're at a loss of what to do.  We simply cannot afford utility bills of this nature.

Any suggestions, folks?

~Bruce & Russ

Welcome to the JEA "Conserve more, we'll still charge you the same amount!" routine. I had actually gotten into a situation where I busted them for not reading the meter, and just charging the "average" to us every month. That average happened to be the summer average. Even on months when I didn't have anything on, the bill was the same. It took me months to get that taken care of. JEA's "Energy Audits" are laughable at best.

Have you weather sealed your windows/doors? That helped us a ton. Our old Riverside windows are drafty as all get out.

Another option is getting a survey from an actual ASHRAE certified indoor environmental engineer. HVAC guys pretty much just work on a standard formula which states "Well, you have this much square footage, buy this bigger HVAC unit." But an indoor environmental engineer can actually tell you exactly where all of the problems are. However, I have no earthly idea what something like that would cost.

I feel ya. My bill in December was $377 then I got January's yesterday, $859!!! I went freakin nuts. I dont know what happened. I kept the heat at 61 all month.

That has already been my fear about moving into springfield. Ive know people in the past that stayed in some of those homes and said their light bill hit over 1,000. There was a REALLY nice apartment I looked at in springfield, but I was too afraid of a possiable high light bill so I stayed away.

Right now I have a huge apartment with washer, dryer, dishwasher, fridge and stove. I run my air like clock work during the summer. I also have a 10 foot high ceiling. My highest bill has been $176.00.

Dont know what to really tell you but good luck

test them.
as an experiment, live like a caveman for an entire billing cycle, couch surf - make alternate living arrangements with friends - for one month.
look at your bill.

My December JEA bill is $0.1419 per kilowatt-hour. What does everyone else's come out to?

Days Billed - 31
Current Reading - 82935
Reading Type - Regular
Meter Constant - 1
Consumption - 1670 kwh
Electric Charges $ 196.88
Conservation Charge 0.00
City of Jacksonville Franchise Fee 5.91
Gross Receipts Tax 5.20
Public Service Tax 13.20
TOTAL CURRENT ELECTRIC CHARGES $ 221.19

$.1324 / kwh

Interesting thread.  I wonder where this may lead to?

JEA needs to be replaced with another company.  Too many overpaid, over-pensioned workers, and seemingly incompetent leadership leads me to believe that we need to start a petition to bring in another utility to buy out JEA and replace them with a new operator.

This may not be the most popular view, but I think it is absolutely necessary.  They have been fleecing Jacksonville for about 3 years now.  They seemed much more reasonably priced before '07.

Quote from: jaxpaxpastor on January 05, 2011, 06:10:53 PM
HELP!!!!
Granted, it's been cold ... and the old windows in this house make it drafty.  But we've kept our thermostats set at 67 degrees and never, ever used the auxiliary heat--just the heat pump.

Heat pumps work well if the outside temp is above roughly 40 degrees. Once the temp drops into the 30s they often can't keep a house at 67 degrees. So even if you didn't use auxilliary heat, the heating coils in your system (very expensive) probably came on automatically in the night.

Quote from: jaxpaxpastor on January 05, 2011, 06:10:53 PM
HELP!!!!

We moved to Springfield -- N. Pearl Street between 6th & 7th -- in May last year.  Like many properties here, ours is an old (1906) former duplex renovated in 1995 and converted to a two-story single family property of approx 2,500-sq-feet.

Our first JEA bill (July 2010) was $525.  Having moved here from Wisconsin where our monthly utility bill -- electric, gas, water & sewer -- was a budgeted $272/month, we literally freaked upon opening the JEA envelope.

We had JEA come out to do an energy audit, as well as requested proposals from three separate HVAC companies.  All of their recommendations were followed:

We replaced the upper level HVAC unit with a top-of-the-line, high energy-efficient 15 Seer unit.  Also replaced with new energy-efficient appliances: our washer, dryer, refrigerator, and dishwasher.  Insulation was added in the attic and an additional "return" was installed on the second level.

Slowly but surely, our JEA bills dropped to about $215 per month (Sept, Oct & Nov 2010).  Then our current bill arrived: $525 of which $430 was for the electric.  Yikes!

Granted, it's been cold ... and the old windows in this house make it drafty.  But we've kept our thermostats set at 67 degrees and never, ever used the auxiliary heat--just the heat pump.

At this point, we're at a loss of what to do.  We simply cannot afford utility bills of this nature.

Any suggestions, folks?

~Bruce & Russ

You own an old house, unless you take measures what do you expect.   Have you reinsulated it?  Like previous posters noted, have you block the windows and doors.

Days Billed ~ 33
Reading Type ~ Regular
Meter Constant ~ 1
Consumption ~ 3454 kwh
Electric Charges ~ $401.33
Conservation Charge ~ $7.04
City of Jacksonville Franchise Fee ~ $12.25
Gross Receipts Tax ~ $10.79
Public Service Tax ~ $27.42
Total Current Electric Charges ~ $458.83

Bottom Line = $0.1328 / kwh

Solar is looking more and more affordable, and the joy of giving JEA (the monopoly) the virtual bird...pricele!!!! Hey Springfielders almost all have wells too, so drinking bottled water, that water bill could be close to nothing also!

Quote from: chipwich on January 06, 2011, 02:54:49 AM
JEA needs to be replaced with another company.  Too many overpaid, over-pensioned workers, and seemingly incompetent leadership leads me to believe that we need to start a petition to bring in another utility to buy out JEA and replace them with a new operator.

This may not be the most popular view, but I think it is absolutely necessary.  They have been fleecing Jacksonville for about 3 years now.  They seemed much more reasonably priced before '07.

Actually, JEA is considered a low cost energy provider in the SE overall.

The kWh pricing had been suppressed overall by the previous director for many years and they covered their increased fuel costs by taking it out of reserves. The year before the director retired and was replaced it was determined that JEA's "reserve" was about to be consumed. When leaving, the old director noted that there were no increases under his watch, which was true....but it created a situation where JEA no longer had a reserve and it made them subject to the large variances hitting the energy markets.

This resulted in many price increases over the last few years and can be perceived as the 'fleecing'

I actually researched for a client a way to bring 3rd party gas/power into their campus in Jacksonville. While gas had options for savings over TECO, it was very difficult to find any in base electric w/o resorting to some sort of capital sharing arrangement with an alternative energies firm. Because JEA's rates were already pretty low, it made those plans a 15-20 year proposition, for which the client could not accept.

I might add that checking your kWh usage against current rates in the NE, you will find that they pay significantly higher bills than you do.

Try the Energy Information Administration website and do the compare, it will be educational.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/electricity/epm/table5_6_a.html

JEA's dependencies on coke and NG and soon, LPG, make them subject to the variances of market pricing. Fortunately they do pretty good in negotiating their long term contracts.  Due to their market size however, it is almost impossible for them to take on any large scale projects by themselves. They have to joint venture in any project, especially those that provide the cheapest long term energy source (nuclear or hydro).

I've been hearing this from most of my neighbors in Riverside. Kiva had the right answer - heat pumps are unable to make up the difference.

Do not, repeat NOT, go to gas from TECO. Their prices will rock you to your socks. High prices and year round service charges. My sister disconnected her gas heat from TECO and is using space heaters in the rooms where they spend time - the living room on during the evening and the bedroom/bathroom at night.

My only other suggestion is floor insulation - drafty off-grade homes make it cold right on your feet. JEA needs to improve their energy audits to account for old houses and severe temps.

Thanks, all, for some extremely good points!

As much as we love our old home(s) here -- and we've lived in historic districts in both Wisconsin and Virginia before relocating to Jacksonville -- some concessions, adjustments, and offsets need to be factored into what's allowed and what isn't in a historic district.  Our homes aren't as energy efficient as most of the newer homes and we can't afford to keep hemorraghing money through inefficient infrastructure.  While we've already done almost everything allowed -- replacing inefficient appliances, adding insulation, etc. -- we are now contemplating replacing some of our old windows that can't be seen from the street (which are the draftiest ones in our home) with new, vinyl ones.  Certainly, we don't want to compromise or take anything away from the look and the charm of our historic district, but there just have to be some allowable offsets to enable us to stay put despite the ever-increasing cost of living here (i.e., utility costs).

@ RiversideLoki: We know our old windows are drafty.  We tried sealing both the windows and doors, but then couldn't open or close them.  We may try to replace the draftiest windows on the sides of the house that cannot be seen from the street.  It appears that additional insulation, first in the attic and then in the open crawl space under the house should be a priority.

@ StephenC:  OMG!!!  $859???  Misery loves company ... but, collectively, we've got to figure out a way out of this costly demon and dilemma.  :'(

@ DuvalDavid:  Something seems out of kilter there, at least as compared to everyone else's experience.  :o

@ ricker:  A possibility, seeing as we'll be gone for a month later this year.

@ chipwich:  (IMHO) JEA is just another arrogant big city monopoly that's getting away with whatever it can.  Tea Party, anyone?  ;D

I find it hard to beleive JEA is considered a low cost provider in the SE, I have lived in big old houses in multiple states in the SE and never had bills so high, even in colder areas then NE FL. Of course those states had multiple power companies available to select which helped keep costs down. JEA would not need to touch the reserves if they had good management. Right now, this instant I have a JEA crew working on my street fixing the same thing for the sixth time in the last 18 months, there are about 12 people out there watching one guy jackhammer the street.....sounds like they got too much staff no?

JEA lies. They have two rates one "off peak" and one "peak" though they only advertise the off peak rate. Unfortunately most of the power you use isn't at 4am so guess which rate you're really paying. Additionally, not included in the advertised rate are the bevy of B.S. fees JEA charges, like fuel surcharges, a regulatory compliance fee (even though they aren't regulated by any agency), the COJ franchise fee that JEA simply passed along to us taxpayers that already supported the system to begin with, storm water fees, etc., etc., etc.

JEA is, IMO, the highest cost utility provider in the state. It costs more to run my 2BR 1k sq ft place in Jacksonville than my parents pay to run a huge house with 6 ac units, pool pumps, outbuildings, etc. I actually meant to ask for a copy of their FP&L bill ovdr christmas so I could post it up alongside my JEA bill for whoever was misguided enough to think we're getting any kind of deal on electricity. It's probably a moot point, since after their latest series of rate hikes I think everyone is painfully aware of how outrageous JEA is.

You have two examples above, and there's definitely 3 different rates.  Put your bill up, and compare notes.  And actually most of us do use power in what you would call off-peak, because most of us are at work from about 7-7.

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on January 06, 2011, 10:14:02 AM
You have two examples above, and there's definitely 3 different rates.  Put your bill up, and compare notes.  And actually most of us do use power in what you would call off-peak, because most of us are at work from about 7-7.

You don't use power at work? I bet you do. Do you turn off the main breaker to your house, disconnecting the ac/heat and all the parasitic losses for electronics that are off but still plugged in? If not then you're still using power. And even if you're doing all of the above, guess what, you're still getting billed as if you didn't, since JEA has began laying off meter readers in favor of quarterly or even less frequent meter readings, and they "estimate" your usage based on some internal formula. Which means they literally just make up a number and bill you for it. So you're still getting billed for it anyway.

Most of the meters can't even record what time how much power was used, all this is based on undisclosed internal formulas that are no doubt designed primarily to increase JEA's profits by assuming that most use occurs on peak, even if the opposite may be true in your case. JEA has redefined its rate structure so that most of the power consumed is billed at a higher rate than the one they advertise, regardless of when the power is actually consumed on an individual level. I think it's deceptive at best.

QuoteAverage Retail Price of Electricity to Ultimate Customers by End-Use Sector, by State, September 2010
South Atlantic        11.31
Delaware               14.18  
District of Columbia 13.99
Florida                  11.76  
Georgia                 10.61  
Maryland               15.06  
North Carolina        10.55
South Carolina       10.29
Virginia                 10.61
West Virginia          9.28

Jax Pastor (before taxes & fees) - 11.62
NRW (before taxes & fees)         - 11.79

So tell me, are the rates posted in line with the state average?  And they pass on additional costs (taxes, fees, etc.) to the user just like any other business, so I don't see what all the griping is about, they are operating like a 'business' and not a government welfare agency.  Do I hate paying my bill?  Yes.  Is there something I can do about it?  Yes.

If you think you're getting jacked by JEA, it's time to evaluate what's more important to you, running your 50" plasma, your desktop in the office, your laptop in the living room, the fridge in the kitchen, the fridge in the garage, the mini-fridge in the office, the lights on when you're not there, the automatic coffee pot, the other 3 plasmas in the bedrooms, the ps3, the x-box, the wireless router, the 2 cell-phones charging, the pool-pump running, the house staying at a comfortable 72 deg year round thanks to your dual-system a/c unit with heat pump, the 1500 amp stereo, the cable boxes, etc....   If you're like most of us, you use a lot of shit.  So then, why bitch about your bill being high and undisclosed formulas and peak/off-peak rates and deceptive practices and so on and so forth.  We use a lot of 'hidden' energy.  Consumption is at an all time high because of the amount of people that are using what I listed above.  

So what say you?

I don't think people realize how much electricity flat screen TVs use. Much more than the old CRTs.

A couple years ago I discovered a rather large energy saver.  Your hot water heater can contribute 30% to your electric bill.

Insulate your water heater

Find the circuit breaker that supplies power to the heater.  Immediately following your last shower or usage in the morning... throw the breaker and turn it off.  The insulation will keep the water hot all day for washing hands etc.  Prior to turning in for the evening... throw the breaker and turn the heater on for hot water for morning showers.

trust me... it will save some cash... :)

Quote from: stephendare on January 06, 2011, 11:11:38 AM
If it was acting like a business, then we taxpayers, who funded the damned thing would be entitled to a return of the billions of dollars that we put into it as the initial and operating capital.  

JEA provides a pretty significant return to the City coffers each year

How much tufsu?  I imagine our budget woes would be even greater without that return...

Mostly, the point I'm making is that there's a bunch of bitching about the cost, but the basis of that cost is overlooked.    We're not being charged $400 a month because of JEA's evil schemes, but because of our life choices.  Think about this:  if 2/3s of the homes in jacksonville only had the basics - AC, TV, Comp, (1) Fridge would JEA have to keep expanding it's power output?   I think not.  It costs money to expand and those costs are transferred directly to the consumers.  If you consume more you're going to pay more - what's so hard about that?  It's people like myself that are causing JEA to HAVE to increase capacity.  

If you can't afford to pay for the maintenance and upkeep, then don't buy the toys.  Example - when I shut the pool down for the winter my bill drops considerably, but I want the pool, so I'm keeping the pool.  I don't blame JEA for charging the shit out of me to use it and I think I do pay a higher rate when I hit a certain threshold, but why shouldn't I?

Quote from: BridgeTroll on January 06, 2011, 11:17:46 AM
A couple years ago I discovered a rather large energy saver.  Your hot water heater can contribute 30% to your electric bill.

Insulate your water heater

Find the circuit breaker that supplies power to the heater.  Immediately following your last shower or usage in the morning... throw the breaker and turn it off.  The insulation will keep the water hot all day for washing hands etc.  Prior to turning in for the evening... throw the breaker and turn the heater on for hot water for morning showers.

trust me... it will save some cash... :)

The easier way to do this is to add a timed switch.   It's an easy fix that anyone (with a little common sense) can do themselves being that everything is pretty much exposed at most water heaters.  They're about $20 at Home Depot. 

Quote from: BridgeTroll on January 06, 2011, 11:17:46 AM
A couple years ago I discovered a rather large energy saver.  Your hot water heater can contribute 30% to your electric bill.

Insulate your water heater

Find the circuit breaker that supplies power to the heater.  Immediately following your last shower or usage in the morning... throw the breaker and turn it off.  The insulation will keep the water hot all day for washing hands etc.  Prior to turning in for the evening... throw the breaker and turn the heater on for hot water for morning showers.

trust me... it will save some cash... :)

BT, I use one of these and it saves me a ton an my bill

http://www.amazon.com/Intermatic-WH40-Electric-Water-Heater/dp/B00004W4XI (http://www.amazon.com/Intermatic-WH40-Electric-Water-Heater/dp/B00004W4XI)

Thanks jagfan... I actually had one in a previous home.  Sometimes I got caught without hot water if trying to shower "out of cycle".  The circuit breaker method works well and provides "manual" flexibility.  Of course if you for get to cycle the power back... COLD SHOWER... :o :D

I've had the same issue. Luckily the "Little Grey Box" I have has an override switch. I am so forgetful I would never remember to turn it off or back on.

Redneck:

I'm sorry to take issue with you but, as stated in my initial posting that evidently hit a JEA "hot" button -- literally and figuratively -- we have made every effort and investment not only to enhance the value of our property and Springfield through landscaping, replacing a white picket fence with an historical one, installing awnings, and generally beautifying our block ... but we also replaced almost every existing appliance we inherited when purchasing the property with new, energy-efficient ones.  All in all, we spent over $10,000 since buying and moving into the place to make it more energy-efficient.  Keeping our thermostats upstairs and down set at 67 degrees isn't extravagant (IMHO) ... we have one-old fashioned TV and one larger LCD, both of which are watched less than an hour or so each day ... and, yes, two computers with (Comcast--I won't get started here on them!) that we do work on several hours each day.  Our life and routines don't change much from month to month and asking to be relatively comfortable rather than freezing with thermostats set at 50 degrees isn't (again, IMHO) outrageous or excsessive in exchange for a reasonably-priced utility bill.  So, to see such an enormous spike from our previous bills -- about $215 each month in December, November, October -- to $525 now in January raises our suspicion that some entity is robbing us -- and y'all! -- blind.  Literally!

JEA rates seem to be pretty low compared to other places...

http://www.publicpower.com/electricrates.shtml

JP - That being the case, did you actually consider the fact that 'someone' and not 'some-entity' is robbing you?

After a re-read, how about Christmas lights?  They would appear on a Jan. billing.  

Quote from: stephendare on January 06, 2011, 12:11:18 PM
You seem to be mistaking consumption for price gouging.

So what's a fair price to pay for electricity?

Another rate comparison...

http://www.jea.com/services/electric/rates_quarterly.asp

Quote from: BridgeTroll on January 06, 2011, 01:09:01 PM
Another rate comparison...

http://www.jea.com/services/electric/rates_quarterly.asp

We can post rates, comparisons, bills dated back 25 years, etc. etc....  Stephen's only reply will be we shouldn't have to pay anything.  Or that they are fleecing everyone of their customers out of 1,000s of dollars to support the lavish lifestyles of the few people in cahoots.  Or any other rant he can think of that makes sense in his head, maybe JEA is after jaxpastor specifically for some perceived ill that he may have cause the lady at the cal center when he told them that the streetlights were out. 

It's never fair.  All corps should be non-profit.  May there be Peace on Earth and everlasting Good will to all of mankind, Amen.

Quote from: stephendare on January 06, 2011, 11:21:58 AM

Quote from: tufsu1 on January 06, 2011, 11:19:35 AM

Quote from: stephendare on January 06, 2011, 11:11:38 AM
If it was acting like a business, then we taxpayers, who funded the damned thing would be entitled to a return of the billions of dollars that we put into it as the initial and operating capital.  

JEA provides a pretty significant return to the City coffers each year

significant to an individual, statistically nonexistent to a power company.  It amounts to a couple of hundred thousand bridge troll.  Or about the amount of one executive salary.

not hardly....JEA has a budget item called City Contribution...defined as such:

"City Contribution is the portion of JEA’s electric services budget that is collected by JEA for the City of Jacksonville to support general government services not related to JEA."

In 2009, that amounted to $97 million

Sounds like a pretty good contribution to the city coffers... or... a very well paid executive...

Jax Pastor, you can't replace any windows (or do anything like that to the outside of your home) in the historic district without first seeking a COA (certificate of appropriateness) from the Historic Preservation Commission, and I doubt it would be permitted.  We are a National Trust Historic District, you see, and there are rules about changing the exterior of your home so that we maintain the historic architecture of our homes.

That said, we live near you. Last year, we added spray foam insulation to our attic, and have noticed a difference this year of 6-7 degrees.  Last year, we couldn't get the downstairs above 57 on really cold days. The last really cold day we had this year, I noticed the thermo read 63 (set on 68) so I guess the heat pump was doing better keeping up.  We, too, use a space heater in the living room at night, although we don't run them while sleeping. I don't trust them enough for that. We use down blankets instead.

Our house is about 2000 sq. ft., and the electricity part of our bill was about $250 this month.  Had we set the thermo down to 65 instead of 68, it would probably have been less.  As Janet said over on MySpringfield, crank that thermo down when you see the little light come on for the heat strips. Good advice.  I'm going to watch for that, crank the thermo back down to 65, and wear a sweater. :-)

We have 40 windows in our moderately sized home, and all but one are original.  So window replacement may not help that much.  In one of our former homes, we replaced really leaky old awning windows (they would not even close all the way) and three wall AC units with double paned windows and a high efficiency heat pump. Net savings on our electric bill?  $0 - that's right - $0.  After spending  $8,000 (in the 80's when that was a lot more than it is now) the bill stayed about the same. 

I would put your money in insulating your attic and crawl space before you think of windows, which I have not seen making much difference.  Oh...and I did have one friend on the Southside who taped visqueen on the inside of his windows one year, leaving an air space. I don't remember if that helped on his bill, but you could try that on your rear windows.  I guess you could call that a "redneck storm window."  "-)

hmmmm I run the airconditioner all summer and consume much more water yet my bills are in the $200 range. In the winter I do not run the heater, use much less water, and my bills are in the $500 range. I do put up a crap load of Christmas lights, but that would have no effect on October, November, and January actuals and yet they are the same. In fact I did not see a real difference in bills with Christmas lights or without. So basically looking at my bills I pay less the more I consume and more the less I consume?

I had JEA look at my old house where my bills were significantly higher (one month was over 1K!!!) they said I had an old house. What I found out later.....my reader was broken. Did they refund me my money, yep a whole 18months later!!! 

There is no rhyme or reason to the billing. When you disupte it takes over a year to get anywhere with them and you HAVE to pay or get cut off, it is not like I can call someone else to hook up my power until JEA gets it together. Basically they can hold my money indefinately until they finally feel like giving it back to me. I am guessing most people just give up and they get to keep it forever.

I dunno. I have never had a problem with my JEA bill. I have stayed in six ddiferent very large apartments over my life time, some older and some fairly new, and I have NEVER had an issue. Maybe I just lucky. The highest bill I ever had was 231.00, and that is when I had a roommate. It was the heat of the summer, I had AC issues, and when the AC was working, I ran it 24-7. My BF is cold natured, so at the same time she had a portable heater plugged up in her room. But as soon as she moved out, it dropped to 70.00. So i dunno..some of us just get lucky I guess.

Quote from: tufsu1 on January 06, 2011, 11:19:35 AM

Quote from: stephendare on January 06, 2011, 11:11:38 AM
If it was acting like a business, then we taxpayers, who funded the damned thing would be entitled to a return of the billions of dollars that we put into it as the initial and operating capital.  

JEA provides a pretty significant return to the City coffers each year

No they simply tack the franchise fee they were supposed to pay COJ onto all of our bills. WE pay, not JEA.

it is part of our JEA bill is it not Chris?

The fact is this....without that revenue stream buit into JEA bills, our property taxes would be that much higher

It's clearly stated on the bill, so it's not like they're hiding that fact:

QuoteCity of Jacksonville Franchise Fee: Franchise fees are charges made by governments to utilities for exclusive/non-exclusive rights to operate within municipal boundaries. Florida statute requires franchise fees to be charged to customers directly and not included in rates. The City of Jacksonville (COJ) Franchise Fee is a 3 percent fee on the electric, water, irrigation and sewer usage of JEA customers living in the city of Jacksonville, effective April 1, 2008. City ordinance directs JEA to collect the fee on behalf of the City, which receives all of the revenue produced by the Fee. On electric usage only: The COJ Franchise Fee is capped at $72,000 per year on electric service usage only. There is no fee cap on any other JEA service to which the fee is applied.

Don't you think that I pass the cost on to my customers when they have me bid a LEED (green) project i.l.o. a regular job?  You're damn right I do, it's called the 'running a business.'  JEA's business is selling electricity.  But you already knew that didn't you?  

Since both you and Stephen think that JEA is ripping everyone off, my question to you both is, "What is a fair price for electricity?"  

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on January 06, 2011, 03:37:48 PM
No they simply tack the franchise fee they were supposed to pay COJ onto all of our bills. WE pay, not JEA.

Isn't that true of all business taxes?

Quote from: JagFan07 on January 06, 2011, 04:09:42 PM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on January 06, 2011, 03:37:48 PM
No they simply tack the franchise fee they were supposed to pay COJ onto all of our bills. WE pay, not JEA.

Isn't that true of all business taxes?

It's true of every cost that a business incurs.  One might call it operating costs.

Non-Redneck: Nobody is "robbing" us--we know and trust our neighbors.  As for Christmas lights, we had nothing electrical plugged in or illuminating the outside, although we did have an artificial Christmas tree whose lights were on for no more than two hours/day in December.  All in all, after every upgrade we made to energy-efficient appliances and a top-of-the-line HVAC system, I just can't understand why -- during a cold snap of maybe three weeks -- our utility bill should spike $300 ... a 150% (2.5 times) increase over our previous bills.

Debbie: Thanks for the sincere and practical reply.

Uptown Girl: I suspect you are right.  While it used to be that you "can't fight City Hall" -- or the utility company, for that matter -- look at what was accomplished when this community converged, took action and fought back about the unfair/irresponsible Hazardous Waste notices posted on most of our property cards.  As a professor of communication (as well as a church pastor), I'll be the first to acknowledge the exponential power of the Internet.  I'll stand up and take on the powers-that-be ... if I'm right and am supported by others in my community.  At this point in my life, I refuse to be victimized!

All: Thanks for some wonderful advice and the community spirit exhibited here.  It gives me hope.

To the original poster: I have a house in Riverside from 1923.  My electric bill so far this winter has been about $250, although I haven't gotten the December bill yet.  I think part of the problem is the extreme cold, which is atypical for us.  We have cold snaps during every winter, but the weeks and weeks of lows in the 20's is not normal for us.  Typically, architects do not recommend double insullated windows in Florida because we don't get cold enough to justify the extra cost in the windows.  Also, new windows are not made to the same quality as the old ones, which have lasted 80-100 years in our historic neighborhoods.  My neighbor replaced all the windows in his duplex 7 years ago.  Most of them are broken now and won't open.  They all have double insullated glass, but each of the two aparment units have bills twice as high as mine.  My house has most of its original windows.  Here are some tips:  Our old houses have doors on every room for a reason:  heat.  They were designed to keep the doors shut and heat only the rooms in your in.  I keep two bedrooms upstairs always with their doors shut, since I don't use them.  Also, although modern design tends to like windows with no drapes or window coverings, drapes do a lot to insullate windows from the rest of the house.  Shut the drapes in your home and after a while stick your hand between the drapes and the window.  You'll feel the difference.

Thanks, JAM!

Good advice.  We do have faux wood blinds on every window and tend to keep them closed.  Hopefully, this cold "snap" will be a passing fancy and our JEA bill will soon return to its normal range of $200-$250/month.

~Bruce (the original poster)

The other poster was correct in that you'll need a Certificate of Appropriateness FIRST if you want to replace windows.  So make sure you get the COA before you pay a deposit on the new windows.  Storm windows are also a good option.  There are tips on line to building simple wood and plastic temporary "storm" windows for the inside.  Just make sure condensation doesn't build up between the two.  If you do outside storm windows, the too need a COA.  There are also a lot of articles in Old Home Journal on how to insullate old windows so that they perform virtually the same as a new window.  The RAP house has a file with some of these articles available for review in its library. The Old Home Journal articles will show you how and provide information on internet sources from which to buy the materials.  Most weatherstripping retrofits provide that you buy a vinal or plastic weatherstripping with a flange.  The installer will then plane a little off the sides of the window, router a groove for the flange, and then install the weatherstripping.  It essentially gives a seal like that of new windows.  Also, make sure there aren't gaps around your doors.  I have huge gap under my front door (on the repair list) and that front room is the coldest in the house.

Another source of information on window maintenance, including cost/benefit analyses to replacing old windows and winter weatherization can be found on the RAP website.  Go to www.riversideavondale.org/resources/exterior renovation.  There are multiple links with lots of info.

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on January 06, 2011, 04:08:34 PM
It's clearly stated on the bill, so it's not like they're hiding that fact:

QuoteCity of Jacksonville Franchise Fee: Franchise fees are charges made by governments to utilities for exclusive/non-exclusive rights to operate within municipal boundaries. Florida statute requires franchise fees to be charged to customers directly and not included in rates. The City of Jacksonville (COJ) Franchise Fee is a 3 percent fee on the electric, water, irrigation and sewer usage of JEA customers living in the city of Jacksonville, effective April 1, 2008. City ordinance directs JEA to collect the fee on behalf of the City, which receives all of the revenue produced by the Fee. On electric usage only: The COJ Franchise Fee is capped at $72,000 per year on electric service usage only. There is no fee cap on any other JEA service to which the fee is applied.

Don't you think that I pass the cost on to my customers when they have me bid a LEED (green) project i.l.o. a regular job?  You're damn right I do, it's called the 'running a business.'  JEA's business is selling electricity.  But you already knew that didn't you?  

Since both you and Stephen think that JEA is ripping everyone off, my question to you both is, "What is a fair price for electricity?"  

The intent of the franchise fee was not to have JEA tack it right onto customer bills, it was to have JEA which was profitable help repay the taxpayer investment in its system. JEA rather unscrupulously continued pocketing the money and passed the fee along to its customer base, which incidentally were the same taxpayers who had funded the system building and operating costs to begin with. It's really grossly unfair when you think about it.

What is it with you conservatives, why do you find the thought of nickel and diming a million people to create a pool of ill-gotten wealth so attractive? Government services were not supposed to be a business. Not everything has to make money.

Our house already has a section -- not visible from the street -- with vinyl windows in the back.  While we wouldn't do anything to detract from or compromise the charm and grace of this historic neighborhood, if we do decide to replace existing windows with vinyl ones, they would be on the sides and not visible from the street.  Walking around our neighborhood, we see homeowners who have replaced the wood on their frame homes with vinyl ... installed the ugliest metal awnings you've ever seen ... created the most unsightly additions in the front or the sides ... and/or have a mish-mash of different window types put in throughout their homes.

Quote from: JAM on January 06, 2011, 05:59:22 PM
To the original poster: I have a house in Riverside from 1923.  My electric bill so far this winter has been about $250, although I haven't gotten the December bill yet.  I think part of the problem is the extreme cold, which is atypical for us.  We have cold snaps during every winter, but the weeks and weeks of lows in the 20's is not normal for us.  Typically, architects do not recommend double insullated windows in Florida because we don't get cold enough to justify the extra cost in the windows.  Also, new windows are not made to the same quality as the old ones, which have lasted 80-100 years in our historic neighborhoods.  My neighbor replaced all the windows in his duplex 7 years ago.  Most of them are broken now and won't open.  They all have double insullated glass, but each of the two aparment units have bills twice as high as mine.  My house has most of its original windows.  Here are some tips:  Our old houses have doors on every room for a reason:  heat.  They were designed to keep the doors shut and heat only the rooms in your in.  I keep two bedrooms upstairs always with their doors shut, since I don't use them.  Also, although modern design tends to like windows with no drapes or window coverings, drapes do a lot to insullate windows from the rest of the house.  Shut the drapes in your home and after a while stick your hand between the drapes and the window.  You'll feel the difference.

+1 on the original windows not being as bad as they're made out to be.

Double pane glass has a shelf life, the rubber seals dry out, the gas leaks out, and after 10-15 years you have a foggy looking window that is no more efficient than the original window that lasted 100 years, except it costs five times as much. If you compare a brand new energy efficient residential window then sure it's more efficient, but it doesn't stay that way long. The only brand that is the exception to the rule is Andersen, they just replaced a bunch of 15 year old double paned gas insulated windows at my dad's house for free (lifetime warranty). Aside from that one brand though, and only then because of their warranty, it's not really worth it.

Good point, Chris/Gator!

Can anyone recommend someone who can "seal" -- i.e., eliminate the draftiness and wind flow around -- our windows without jamming them or making them next-to-impossible to open and close?

Barry Gordon was who I used to use for my rental properties, he was excellent at rebuilding the original windows. They were airtight, new cords and weights, worked like a charm. I'll see if I can find his number for you.

I know this thread has focused on electric bills, but an area where JEA will REALLY stick it to you is water and sewer.  Minimum monthly bills are outrageous - even if you use NO water (which is the case for me with a property I am renovating) they will charge both water and sewer based on the size of your line.  When I bought this house I didn't realize that it had a larger than normal line.  My water and sewer bill, with ZERO usage, was more than $100 per month.  I paid JEA to come out and switch me over to a smaller line, and now I would "only" pay about $35 a month for absolutely nothing (the minimum for the smaller supply line).  I say I WOULD only pay that amount because I decided to shut the water off completely for the time being.

Prior to this experience, I was not a member of the "I hate JEA club."  Guess I'm still not a hater, 'cause that will get me nowhere.  Instead, I have decided to limit my monthly contributions to JEA.  We burn (free) wood in our fireplace and keep our thermostat on 60 in the winter, day and night (except when we have non-family visitors), turn off the water heater when we're not around, unplug the computers and tvs, etc.  I don't turn the a/c down below 80 in the summertime and we conserve as much water as we can.  I'm still ticked off about those ridiculous water bills, but during the past 9 months of frugality I've saved a lot more than that cost.  Unfortunately, the end result of folks conserving on water and electric is more rate increases - JEA has to make up for lower usage with higher fees.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on January 06, 2011, 11:17:46 AM
A couple years ago I discovered a rather large energy saver.  Your hot water heater can contribute 30% to your electric bill.

Insulate your water heater

Find the circuit breaker that supplies power to the heater.  Immediately following your last shower or usage in the morning... throw the breaker and turn it off.  The insulation will keep the water hot all day for washing hands etc.  Prior to turning in for the evening... throw the breaker and turn the heater on for hot water for morning showers.

trust me... it will save some cash... :)

And in about one month you will be replacing your breaker.  They were not designed to be switches and will not last long when used that way.  Instead, install a timer on the heater and have it come on for thirty minutes before your peak hot water use.

Second, most of the old houses in Springfield and Riverside are "balloon framed" rather than platform framed like post WWII houses.  This means that the wall cavities are OPEN TO THE OUTSIDE AT THE BOTTOM AND IN THE ATTIC.  Cold air, especially when the wind is blowing under and open foundation can come up the walls and out of every electric outlet and around every baseboard.  There are no "fire stops", cross boards, in the wall cavities to limit how far up the cold air will come.

Solution?  Crawl under your house and stuff a fiberglass batt of insulation into the open end of each wall cavity.  Second, staple house wrap under the floor, taping it carefully around all pipes and ducts under the house.  Both will stop cold air infiltration.  Don't bother with fiberglass batts under the house, just stop the air infiltration.  Heat rises, not cold.

Over the hundred plus years your house has been in existence, the wood in the window sashes and frames has shrunk allowing air to get in.  Adding stick on weather stripping to the inside of the sashes is easy and cheap.

Third, close off the vents and close the doors of the rooms you don't use.

Fourth, if you have air return ducts both upstairs and downstairs, close off the downstairs grill in the winter time and the upstairs grill in the summer time.  This will return the heated air that goes up your staircase in the winter to the downstairs and the cold air that falls from upstairs in the summer.

Finally, JEA's energy audit people don't have a clue about our old houses.

Second finally, once you have been in your house for a year you can have JEA average your bill and charge you the same amount each month for the whole year.  It avoids that horrible surprises that we can get in the winter.

Quote from: stephendare on January 06, 2011, 05:31:45 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on January 06, 2011, 01:26:44 PM

Quote from: stephendare on January 06, 2011, 11:21:58 AM

Quote from: tufsu1 on January 06, 2011, 11:19:35 AM

Quote from: stephendare on January 06, 2011, 11:11:38 AM
If it was acting like a business, then we taxpayers, who funded the damned thing would be entitled to a return of the billions of dollars that we put into it as the initial and operating capital. 

JEA provides a pretty significant return to the City coffers each year

significant to an individual, statistically nonexistent to a power company.  It amounts to a couple of hundred thousand bridge troll.  Or about the amount of one executive salary.

not hardly....JEA has a budget item called City Contribution...defined as such:

"City Contribution is the portion of JEA’s electric services budget that is collected by JEA for the City of Jacksonville to support general government services not related to JEA."

In 2009, that amounted to $97 million

Citation please.

that would be the most recent JEA Annual Report...also corroborated by looking at the City budget

Geez...do I have to do all the work

http://www.jea.com/about/budget/index.asp

http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/fc2aa9f8

oh yeah...and it is on Page 22

I live in an older, circa 1930's two story home, off grade.  It is poorly insulated except for all the windows having been replaced by a prior owner.

I found using a programmable thermostat helps a lot.  I program my downstairs for 66 during the day, 67 at breakfast and dinner, and 65 in the dark of night when everyone is asleep upstairs.  I keep upstairs at 67 at night and 66 during the day when we are active, dressed, and often elsewhere.  I also found covering the air vents around the foundation of my off grade house with sheets of styrofoam during the entire winter keeps the floors from getting drafty and cold and keeps a lot less air from the cold northwesterly winds from pushing through the building not to mention helping to keep any under-house exposed water pipes from freezing.  Also, put insulating pads behind all your light switch and receptacle plates.  You would be amazed how much air drafting through your walls comes out of these spots.  Lastly, make sure you foam all the pipe openings under your sinks.  And, keep your garage doors closed as much as possible.

With the coldest December in 130 years of weather records in Jax, my bill was a record, but apparently a lot lower than many posted here at $345 or so.

I have been told by HVAC people if I insulate my attic with Icynene (spray foam) and seal my foundation using a dehumidifier to keep it dry, I will be in even better shape.

Quote from: Dog Walker on January 06, 2011, 09:08:18 PM
Second, most of the old houses in Springfield and Riverside are "balloon framed" rather than platform framed like post WWII houses.  This means that the wall cavities are OPEN TO THE OUTSIDE AT THE BOTTOM AND IN THE ATTIC.  Cold air, especially when the wind is blowing under and open foundation can come up the walls and out of every electric outlet and around every baseboard.  There are no "fire stops", cross boards, in the wall cavities to limit how far up the cold air will come.

And this was done on purpose.  The large attic spaces and crawlspaces, along with large windows throughout allows the air to pass through the home unobstructed, relieving you of the misery of temps in the high 90's through the summer months.  Most homes had, some still do, a large fan in the center of the home, that the homeowner could turn on which would pull the air in from the outside and blow it out through the attic for use on the days when the wind wasn't blowing.  Unfortunately, these homes don't work well with modern HVAC without extreme renovations.  Air Conditioning is just that, it conditions the air - dust control, temp control and humidity control.  Good luck with that in your pre 50's house that was built to draft.

Quote from: stephendare on January 06, 2011, 11:25:58 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on January 06, 2011, 09:59:30 PM
Geez...do I have to do all the work

http://www.jea.com/about/budget/index.asp

http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/fc2aa9f8

oh yeah...and it is on Page 22

much obliged.

And you do realize that a good portion of the supposed 'contribution' is in the form of providing the City with energy and then forgiving the payments for every public location.  80 million dollars worth.  Not bad for a budget of 2 billion.  or about 4 to 5%.  

Give me a break.  That is what the electric authority was created to do.  It isnt a 'gift' to the City.  It was a stipulation and cause of its formation in the first place.

You will notice in the pages after 55 of that same report that no account is made in all those numbers of the Investments strategy that is being pursued by the JEA, including ownership in a syndicate of investors into a Georgian power company, or the TEA investments.

Any idea where that money is going to?

Or any explanation why the JEA would have a billion dollars lying around to invest in them?

According to a source fairly intimate with the situation, the investment schemes are then funneled back into the hands of the private bondholders, bypassing the public altogether, which otherwise should recieve them back in the form of lower bills.  Which is how it used to work.

Instead, the profit isnt funnelled back into the public, which is being forced to pay the franchise fee originally intended to be paid by the bondholders from their profits.

In reality the profit isnt going back into the public, and the bondholders arent paying the fee for the franchise rights, even despite being created as minority partners in the JEA at its founding.

Its astounding really.

Not paying back the bondholders is usually a bad idea.  Especially for a capital intensive industry.  I don't see anything wrong with paying down debt.  

With that being said, are they good at picking good bondholders?  Are they picking the 25% bonds with ridiculous repayment terms?  Is JEA taking way too many bonds?  Who owns these bonds?  What is JEA's bond rating and how does it compare to the rest of the utilities out there?  Should JEA be disallowed to issue bonds and get all it's money from the city?  What's the solution here? 

Dogwalker is correct, these old houses were built to keep cool in the summer. If it is 80 outside it is 70 inside, which is nice in the long hot months. We have to be careful in our insulation of these homes. I also do not advocate replaing windows, use the weatherstripping instead. I would do ust about anything to keep my original wavy glass! MsFixit said it....JEA can charge whatever they want. How is it even legal to charge based on a pipe or an average? When I go to Publix once a week I pay for what I put on the belt, not an average on what I spent over the last month, or based on my cart size. Even when everyone is gone for the summer, family in CA, I am in CLT and no one is even in the house for months the bill is still at least 200 dollars!  I have never complained about my electric company or bill before moving here, but JEA is ust full of crooks.

Christ/Gator:  Thanks yet once again!  If you can find Barry Gordon's contact info and send it to me, we'd be very appreciative.  I doubt if our windows need to be "rebuilt," just adjusted so there's not so much air flowing through them when closed ...

Miss Fixit:  I agree totally about the outrageous water and sewer bill charges from JEA.  Everywhere else we've lived, we were billed just for the water we used ... and then that determined how much we'd be billed for the sewer charge.  Here, regardless of how little water one uses, JEA charges a "minimum" fee which, when combined with the sewer fee, is just about $75/month on our bill.  That's highway robbery, IMHO!!!!!  Our water and sewer bill typically was no more than $25/month everywhere else we've lived.

Dog Walker:  Thanks for some excellent suggestions.  We will follow-up.

ALL: With so many, many valuable ideas for being more energy-efficient and resourceful, we've printed out all of the comments here and are in the process of compiling a "check list" of things to inspect, evaluate, and consider.  Once that list is organized, I will post it here for all to consult and use.

Thanks for being such great neighbors!

HOW TO SAVE $$$$$$ ON YOUR JEA ELECTRIC BILLS

Apart from agreeing that JEA tends to be a rip-off and that it’s up to us to minimize JEA’s thievery, the general consensus seems to be that 80% of energy savings come from proper and adequate insulation in the attic.  The remaining 20% is split between the windows and doors … walls … and floors.  Apart from â€" or in addition to â€" replacing your HVAC units and appliances with more energy-efficient ones, here’s a checklist to help reduce your electric bills:

Insulation

❏ Insulate attics to R30, blown-in most likely.

❏ Make sure insulation in the attic hasn’t settled.  If it has, add more.

❏ Check all A/C and heat junction boxes under your house to ensure good seals.  Caulk any gaps.

❏ Make sure that animals haven’t ripped into your ducts or insulation under the house.

❏ Add batting or insulation under the house to improve drafty off-grade homes with cold floors.   Be sure to allow for adequate insulation.

❏ Or, staple house wrap under the floor, taping it carefully around all pipes and ducts under the house.

❏ Insulate your water heater.  Consider the practicality of putting it on a timer.

❏ Install insulating pads behind all light switches and receptacle plates on exterior walls.

❏ Insulate all pipe openings under the sink.


Windows/Doors

❏ Check the bottoms of all windowsills for drafts.

❏ Reseal doors/windows with stick-on weather stripping.


Additional Suggestions

❏ Unplug everything you’re not using â€" especially extra TVs, clocks, appliances â€" since they’re pulling electricity all of the time.

❏ Close vents, doors, and fireplace flues when not being used.

❏ Invest in power strips.

❏ Close downstairs air return duct(s) in the winter … and upstairs return duct(s) in the summer.

❏ Put appropriate appliances on timers and consider programming your thermostat for maximum efficiency and minimal discomfort.

❏ Change filters at least every two monthsâ€"monthly during dusty summers.

❏ Run the dishwasher, washing machine, etc., at night before you go to bed â€" instead of after dinner or before leaving for work in the morning â€" when electric charges are lower since less is being pulled off the grid overnight.


Water/Sewer Savings

❏ Determine if your line is a ¾” or 1” feed.  The cheapest is said to be 5/8”.


Words to the Wise

❏ Make certain that JEA is, indeed, reading your meters … not just charging you an “average,”

❏ When all else fails, consider seeking a survey from an ASHRAE-certified indoor environmental engineer.

Good check list!  Now for one more to lower your a/c bills in the summer.

Go into your attic and staple reflective, kraft backed mylar on the bottom of each of your roof rafters.  It's available at Home Depot and is not expensive.   It doesn't have to be installed air tight either.  It reflects the heat coming from the bottom of your roof deck into the attic back out through the roof and drops the temperature inside your attic by about thirty degrees.  Even with R-30 blown onto the floor of the attic, the insulation becomes saturated with heat and releases it into your house at night.  Keep it out of the attic and it doesn't heat up your duct work either.

Quote from: Dog Walker on January 07, 2011, 12:57:50 PM
Good check list!  Now for one more to lower your a/c bills in the summer.

Go into your attic and staple reflective, kraft backed mylar on the bottom of each of your roof rafters.  It's available at Home Depot and is not expensive.   It doesn't have to be installed air tight either.  It reflects the heat coming from the bottom of your roof deck into the attic back out through the roof and drops the temperature inside your attic by about thirty degrees. 

Dog, I have been told by roofers that the number one cause for asphalt roof shingle premature failure is too much heat from the attic below, not the sun above.  If this is true, it would appear your suggestion with the mylar may cause premature roof failure as it reflects the radiant heat back to the underside of the roof.  I have chosen to keep attic heat down with improved ventilation such as additional ridge vents.  Most builders, cutting corners, fail to put in a goodly number.  Older homes may not have enough either.  I have usually doubled the number on re-roofs I have done.

This has been a hot topic on our FB family too, I see people posting $800 and $900 bills for Jan 2011. That increase is not some Christmas lights and a cold snap!

Christmas lights are not the problem. The cold snap and higher JEA rates are.

QuoteDog, I have been told by roofers that the number one cause for asphalt roof shingle premature failure is too much heat from the attic below, not the sun above.  If this is true, it would appear your suggestion with the mylar may cause premature roof failure as it reflects the radiant heat back to the underside of the roof.  I have chosen to keep attic heat down with improved ventilation such as additional ridge vents.  Most builders, cutting corners, fail to put in a goodly number.  Older homes may not have enough either.  I have usually doubled the number on re-roofs I have done.

This has been extensively tested by the University of Florida and found not to be true.  Reflecting the heat back out through the roof raised the temperature of the shingles by about 1.5 degrees, not enough to accelerate their deterioration.  The heat simply radiates away.  That's just an "old roofers" tale.

Cheap, dark shingles are the major cause of premature failure of a shingle roof.  There are several grades of shingles available.  Make sure what is installed is what you have paid for.  Even the best asphalt shingle roof is only going to last about fifteen years in Florida.  That's why all the houses in south Florida have those concrete shingles.

If you can afford it, re-roof in metal.  It comes in all kinds of looks, even shingle, but is expensive.  There are houses in Riverside and Springfield that still have their original 100 year old metal roofs. In any case, light colored shingles will extend the life of your roof.

here's the deal folks...stop blaming the rates and look at how much energy you used instead...in December 2009 I used about 350kwh....this year it was closer to 950kwh.......not surprisingly, my bill more than doubled.

Quote from: tufsu1 on January 09, 2011, 05:26:11 PM
here's the deal folks...stop blaming the rates and look at how much energy you used instead...in December 2009 I used about 350kwh....this year it was closer to 950kwh.......not surprisingly, my bill more than doubled.

But according to most, you used 950kw because a.)  JEA was too lazy to check your meter so they guessed; b.)  a lucky bondholder won the 'who-are-we-going-to-exploit-now lottery; or c.) rather than increase our rates, we'll just double your usage via 'faulty' equipment and only refund you the money if you call our customer service and complain like hell.

I just don't happen to agree with 'most'.

Quote from: tufsu1 on January 09, 2011, 05:26:11 PM
here's the deal folks...stop blaming the rates and look at how much energy you used instead...in December 2009 I used about 350kwh....this year it was closer to 950kwh.......not surprisingly, my bill more than doubled.

So your implied premise is that we are all wasting more power, not that JEA is charging more money.

So let me ask you this; Has JEA recently raised rates (both their published and de facto rates) or haven't they?

Simple question, deserves a simple answer.

http://www.publicpower.com/electricrates.shtml

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on January 09, 2011, 06:47:28 PM
So your implied premise is that we are all wasting more power, not that JEA is charging more money.

So let me ask you this; Has JEA recently raised rates (both their published and de facto rates) or haven't they?

Simple question, deserves a simple answer.

So you fall into NRW's group c.  Again, I ask you this, "What is a fair rate to pay for electricity?"

Quote from: stephendare on January 09, 2011, 07:19:37 PM
So, lets try something out, my dear intellectually mavericked fellow.

Was there a rate increase or did the rates stay the same?

Dec 2010 - 1670     Nov 2010 - 1268
Dec 2009 - 1407     Nov 2009 - 1759
Dec 2008 - 2453     Nov 2008 - 1704


In '08 I had 2 houses powered at the same time, so it's irrelevant, but for the most part everything on my end seems to be pretty normal.  Instead of me posting other months of my electric usage, why don't you show me your anomaly of an electric bill and then we can discuss this.

http://www.publicpower.com/electricrates.shtml

Quote from: stephendare on January 09, 2011, 07:29:47 PM
So you do or do not know whether or not there was a rate increase?

I can't answer if there was a 'rate' increase, but it appears there was a 'usage' increase of $.015/kwh

$.1024 in '09
$.1174 in '10

So what's your point?

Quote from: stephendare on January 09, 2011, 07:39:17 PM
So, redneck, do you think the bills went up because there was a double directional increase in JEA's rates (Fuel Costs as well as Consumption) or do you think its all because of a majical across the board increase in people being irresponsible with their energy consumption?

Well, first I don't know what 'majical' means, and secondly I think that they have the right to charge more per kwh when you exceed certain thresholds.  

I used a lot more (almost double) energy in '08 as I did in '09, so if they charged me more, I deserve to pay it.  They can only project a certain amount of energy to use, and if they exceed that then they lose money.  

Maybe this concept of trying to make a profit over what's fair for everyone is why you're not running your own 'profitable' business at the moment and I have 2.

QuoteEven with the proposed increase, JEA's nearly 380,000 electric customers will still have the lowest residential electric rates in the state - including Miami, Orlando and Tallahassee, as well as larger cities like Atlanta, Charlotte, Houston, and New York.JEA's electric rates have not been increased in 14 years.

"Despite the rising costs of all fuels we use to generate electricity, we've been able to maintain low rates by investing in leading power-plant technologies and adopting more efficient work methods," said JEA CEO Walt Bussells. "Also, our fuel diversity allows us to maintain the lowest rates for our customers. Fuel and purchased power make up nearly 40 percent of the utility's annual budget."

Quote from: stephendare on January 09, 2011, 07:47:27 PM
I would like to deceive myself that you cannot possibly be this stupid, and I will refrain from suggesting it.  Considering that you don't really know a damned thing about what I do your statement is at least as informed as anything else you post on.  thanks

Lets try this again.

Do you realize that the JEA is owned by the public?  so?

Do you realize that its not a for profit business?  Its not supposed to make a billion dollar profit. yes.  not for profit means that you don't show a return at the end of the year, it doesn't mean that you don't make money.  If I'm not mistaken, you find a way to re-invest all of those profits in order to show equality in earnings and spending.

Or are you just posting without having bothered with any of the easily available facts?  Like whether or not there was a rate increase? fact is that I don't care.  I pay a certain amount every month.   Some months it's more, some less.  It's not up to me what JEA charges me to live the lifestyle that I choose.  Maybe if you could understand that it costs more to live better, then you wouldn't be so uptight all the time.

Quote from: stephendare on January 09, 2011, 07:58:17 PM
So you don't really know or care whether or not there was a rate hike, but you are going to explain to everyone why their bills came in higher.

And you are under the impression that living well means living profligately, but dispense the advice that frugality is the key to dealing with energy costs?

And finally, Yes.  You are mistaken about what a publicly chartered non profit is supposed to do, specifically JEA.  It is your company, and it is up to you what you are charged for the product that your company produces.  Did Johnny not get this in his American Civics class?  Or were you too busy dreaming about the eventual lawn care service career?

Well at least you are cheerily honest about the fact that you literally have no idea what you are talking about but are willing to expound at length anyways.

So, um.....how 'bout them Dawgs! man?

I've asked this question repeatedly to those of you who care to think that JEA is run by crooks, but I still haven't received an answer, just more question.  Doe that mean that you don't know the fair rate for electrictiy?

http://www.publicpower.com/electricrates.shtml

Quote from: BridgeTroll on January 09, 2011, 08:09:48 PM
http://www.publicpower.com/electricrates.shtml

Stop boring SD with facts and public acknowledgement.  He wants to hear about criminal activity and salacious behaviours.

Quote from: stephendare on January 09, 2011, 08:11:12 PM
Wouldnt you be happier, and less uptight if you stuck to like.....football?  I can tell you that youd sound a damn site more informed. I'd like to know your thoughts on football before you blanket me with the statement that you'd think I was 'more informed.'  WTF do you know of my football knowledge compared to my public utility knowledge, other than the inability to answer a question with an 'actual answer?"

A public owned utility should have the literal lowest prices across the board on the market. compared to a privately owned public-service-utility?.

We clearly have enough room to pay back a billion dollars that was dragooned for internal acquisitions and investments, and undoubtedly enough to shave the profits tossed to bondholders by a percentage point or two.  where are those facts that you keep bugging tfsu and myself for?

Is there any other thunderously obvious issue youd like to clarify?  Or were you just hoping to get a trivia answer in a subject that youve already announced that you simply don't care about? I just want an anwer. ;)

So you don't have an answer, just a long drawn-out, i don't have a clue.

here let me help you Stephen....yes, JEA increased rates in 2010

BUT...say it isn't that cold in January or February and I actually use significantly less power than last year....what happens if my bill goes down....did JEA magically lower rates?

Bottom line....the majority of the increase in people's bills for December 2010 is attributable to higher energy usage. 

Quote from: tufsu1 on January 09, 2011, 08:24:52 PM
yes, JEA increased rates

Well thank you for finally answering the simple question. Wasn't that easy?

Quote from: tufsu1 on January 09, 2011, 08:24:52 PM
what happens if my bill goes down....did JEA magically lower rates?

Well JEA has raised rates, fees, and fuel surcharges for 6 years running, so you likely won't ever have to answer that.

Quote from: stephendare on January 09, 2011, 08:26:33 PM
All of the information youve asked for has already been provided in the links on this thread.  If you are too lazy or incapable of looking up the facts yourself, then if you ask nicely Im sure one of them will find them for you.

Hey there, quitter, I've only asked you to answer one question for me.....

Quote« Reply #46 on: January 06, 2011, 04:08:34 PM »
Since both you and Stephen think that JEA is ripping everyone off, my question to you both is, "What is a fair price for electricity?"

You on the other hand have asked people to do the research for you....

Quote« Last Edit: January 06, 2011, 05:45:04 PM by stephendare »

Citation please.

or....

Quote« Reply #63 on: January 06, 2011, 09:56:14 PM »
great lets see it

But have failed to anwer a question posed to you earlier in the thread.  Where's your sense if decency?

JEA has been forced to increase what it charges for water and electricity during the past few years because of its tremendous debt per customer.  The higher than normal debt caused its bond rating to fall,  which meant JEA had to pay higher interest rates on new bond issues.  

This was the result of poor management over many years, not a recent decision to reward bondholders at the expense of customers.  JEA doesn't have a choice:  it has to borrow money to pay capital expenses and the market dictates rates paid on its bonds.

Our recent higher electric bills are caused by BOTH rate increases and historically low temperatures.

Yeah, except they do this year after year. After year. After year. When you compound it and calculate out what they've really done with enacting these rate hikes every year for 5 or 6 years running, you could be using less than half of what you used to use and your bill would STILL be higher.

Quote from: Miss Fixit on January 09, 2011, 08:45:12 PM
JEA has been forced to increase what it charges for water and electricity during the past few years because of its tremendous debt per customer.  The higher than normal debt caused its bond rating to fall,  which meant JEA had to pay higher interest rates on new bond issues. 

This was the result of poor management over many years, not a recent decision to reward bondholders at the expense of customers.  JEA doesn't have a choice:  it has to borrow money to pay capital expenses and the market dictates rates paid on its bonds.

Our recent higher electric bills are caused by BOTH rate increases and historically low temperatures.

Don't buy into the party line. That's got nothing to do with it, their bond rating has gone nowhere but up.

Their debt position has only decreased. I mean, let's put this in perspective. At the height of the credit crisis JEA's ratings outlook was still "stable" and they disclosed that even if "doomsday" came to fruition and the rating was lowered (to A+ from AA-...I know, a real catastrophe) the resulting increase in interest costs would only be about $5mm a year;

http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/090908/met_330004550.shtml

So how, then, does fear of that benign outcome warrant several hundred million dollars worth of rate increases?

Quote from: stephendare on January 09, 2011, 08:47:15 PM

Quote from: Miss Fixit on January 09, 2011, 08:45:12 PM
JEA has been forced to increase what it charges for water and electricity during the past few years because of its tremendous debt per customer.  The higher than normal debt caused its bond rating to fall,  which meant JEA had to pay higher interest rates on new bond issues.  

This was the result of poor management over many years, not a recent decision to reward bondholders at the expense of customers.  JEA doesn't have a choice:  it has to borrow money to pay capital expenses and the market dictates rates paid on its bonds.

Our recent higher electric bills are caused by BOTH rate increases and historically low temperatures.

Actually it happened because the former director decided to go into the investments and securities market in order to make a bunch of money.  I was around when that happened.  While the market was high, he was considered both a titan and a genius.  So much so that he was invited to join the new Peyton Administration and institute the same practices in the City Finances.  He did this over the dead body and resignation of Sam Mousa, who had instituted an extremely conservative, secure method of intelligent financial stewardship that left the city with surpluses ever year.

The City followed JEA's example (at the time it was a rosy one) and lost a substantial chunk of change in the first two years.  Of course that trend deepened, and the resulting shocking losses put the City and JEA in a debt position.

It wasnt as a result of an accruing debt per customer.

So you have ansers for everyone but me?  That's cool.  I really didn't expect anything from you, just more rhetoric that you can't substantiate, just 'something you were around on.'  Typical SD.

Now I expect you to igore this post or answer it with another question.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on January 09, 2011, 08:57:08 PM
So how, then, does fear of that benign outcome warrant several hundred million dollars worth of rate increases?

Was it a rate increase or a passing-along-of-doing-business increase?  As much as you'd like to believe it, they're not one in the same.

Quote from: stephendare on January 09, 2011, 09:05:41 PM
The expert says it pretty clearly.  Its out of character for a public utility.

QuoteGoing just a step lower, he said, could boost annual debt payments by $5 million to $7 million, but increasing the bond rating - while a good business move - would cause problems for customers.

McElroy said it would take heavier cash flow to get a higher rating, most likely calling for rate increases on top of those authorized already for this year. While the analysts - who serve as advocates for municipal bond investors - might like the look of the balance sheet, the business model would seem a bit out of touch, at least for a public utility.

But possibly right in line with a privately-owned-utililty?  One of those profit generating engines that you'd know nothing about.

I guess your point, other than my 'mom' which you referenced so poetically, is that publicly owned companies should never operate or perform like privately owned companies, which is a long way of saying operate at a loss in leiu of a profit.

"To many people, the difference between "AA-" and "A+" may seem trivial, even too abstract to worry about.

But to JEA, the difference could mean millions of dollars in additional interest payments, costs that would trickle down to customers."

These sentences are from the same article quoted earlier.  Unfortunately, the drop from A+ to AA- occurred several years ago and was a significant reason for the increases we've seen in our utility bills.

The bond rating is only one of the problems JEA has faced - water quality problems and increased fuel prices haven't helped, and many years of undercharging developers and builders for new lines and connections contributed too - but it IS an important part of the problem. 

The interest cost increase for the much-threatened drop from AA- to A+ was a whopping $5mm-$7mm a year, and they decided to charge customers another several hundred million annually to avoid paying that $5mm-$7mm in additional interest costs. This created a windfall of cash, which they have proceeded to invest (and lose) in a number of harebrained schemes so preposterous you wouldn't believe me if I told you.

Mismanagement is causing the increasing costs, plain and simple. Nota bene: Stephen has a different take on the mismanagement, he has some evidence that the problem is that funds are being 'mismanaged' right back into management's and management's friends pockets via conflicts of interest in JEA's outside investment portfolio (which it shouldn't have to begin with...it's a public utility not an investment bank).

Markets and fuel prices fluctuate. JEA jacked the rates up in 2007 and 2008 to cover increased fuel costs. When the market cratered and fuel prices plummeted back down in 2009 and 2010 what happened? Well naturally despite a 70% decrease in the price of a barrel of oil, they actually RAISED the rates again. Lol

I mean come on, that's not market fluctuation, that game is just rigged.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on January 09, 2011, 10:09:10 PM
...This created a windfall of cash, which they have proceeded to invest (and lose) in a number of harebrained schemes so preposterous you wouldn't believe me if I told you.

Try us.

Please, without links, just post the material.

Quote from: stephendare on January 09, 2011, 10:14:29 PM

I thought you werent interested in this kind of stuff, redneck?

After all, with your two businesses, and your high stepping life of just paying for stuff without worrying about the costs, surely this is beneath your radar, right?

I don't worry about costs, Stephen, I pass them along to my customers.

maybe you should have.....

I can't walk too fast or my courd's catch fire, but I'm doing well enough, thanks.


BTW, do you have any idea what electricity should cost?

Quote from: stephendare on January 09, 2011, 10:21:30 PM
Lil ole me?  Why Shucks redneck, my lil ole brain would just bust trying to think about all that.

Tell us about your racing car, redneck!  I like racing cars.!

Failure to answer the first question posed to you in this thread, and you have no idea.

Why don't I just repost what you said about my mom, that should do it.

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on January 09, 2011, 10:11:31 PM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on January 09, 2011, 10:09:10 PM
...This created a windfall of cash, which they have proceeded to invest (and lose) in a number of harebrained schemes so preposterous you wouldn't believe me if I told you.

Try us.

Please, without links, just post the material.

It's truly stranger than fiction, and is quite the long and sordid tale. JEA's improper dabbling in private equities with resulting spectacular losses stretches back nearly three decades. As early as the early 80s JEA had signed a billion dollar deal to buy floating nuclear generating stations from a joint venture owned primarily by the chairman of JEA's own board of directors. After JEA had advanced some $200mm in upfront payments to outside companies controlled by its own management, the coast guard declined to certify the harebrained floating nuclear reactors because the first hurricane over a category 2 would have caused a meltdown and wiped out the eastern seaboard.

More recently, circa 2004-2007 how's about a computer system that cost $100mm+ installed by a contractor with similar conflicts of interests with JEA management. The system never worked properly despite the company having been paid upfront, and had to be replaced within 2 years. JEA's mainframe they charged to rip and replace with a nonfunctional system had worked fine for 15+ years. Very recently (around 2005) JEA began dabbling in the derivatives market. It started by, paradoxically, writing default/downgrade insurance on its own bonds, something that makes little sense and is very unusual. It then expanded into buying/selling credit default swaps on other companies, with predictable results considering what happened in that market from 2008-forward. Losses were hidden but likely catastrophic.

At this point we're funding a black hole.

Quote from: stephendare on January 09, 2011, 10:25:07 PM
I didnt even realized that you had 'posed to me.  Its all so sudden.

I guess the english language has failed you tonight....

Quote
posed â€" verb (used with object)
4. to place in a suitable position or attitude for a picture, tableau, or the like: to pose a group for a photograph.
5. to assert, state, or put forward: That poses a difficult problem.
6. to put or place.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on January 09, 2011, 10:29:00 PM

It's truly stranger than fiction, and is quite the long and sordid tale. JEA's improper dabbling in private equities with resulting spectacular losses stretches back nearly three decades. As early as the early 80s JEA had signed a billion dollar deal to buy floating nuclear generating stations from a joint venture owned primarily by the chairman of JEA's own board of directors. After JEA had advanced some $200mm in upfront payments to outside companies controlled by its own management, the coast guard declined to certify the harebrained floating nuclear reactors because the first hurricane over a category 2 would have caused a meltdown and wiped out the eastern seaboard.

More recently, circa 2004-2007 how's about a computer system that cost $100mm+ installed by a contractor with similar conflicts of interests with JEA management. The system never worked properly despite the company having been paid upfront, and had to be replaced within 2 years. JEA's mainframe they charged to rip and replace with a nonfunctional system had worked fine for 15+ years. Very recently (around 2005) JEA began dabbling in the derivatives market. It started by, paradoxically, writing default/downgrade insurance on its own bonds, something that makes little sense and is very unusual. It then expanded into buying/selling credit default swaps on other companies, with predictable results considering what happened in that market from 2008-forward. Losses were hidden but likely catastrophic.

At this point we're funding a black hole.

While I can't doubt the claims, I also can't just agree.  The basis of their investments would probably mimic the investments of so many other people and corporations whom were severly burned in the collapse of the market 2 years ago.   I can't fault them in investing 'my' money the same way I can't fault myself for putting 'my' money in the same markets.  While many predicted the collapse, I can't think of anyome who actually pulled out prior.  While JEA may be listed as a publically owned non profit, that doesn't mean that they don't follow for-profit trends and try to make money.

Quote from: stephendare on January 09, 2011, 10:31:22 PM

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on January 09, 2011, 10:29:40 PM

Quote from: stephendare on January 09, 2011, 10:25:07 PM
I didnt even realized that you had 'posed to me.  Its all so sudden.

I guess the english language has failed you tonight....

Quote
posed â€" verb (used with object)
4. to place in a suitable position or attitude for a picture, tableau, or the like: to pose a group for a photograph.
5. to assert, state, or put forward: That poses a difficult problem.
6. to put or place.

"What a Man!" he marvelled.

I guess you're sitll done?

I just couldn't resist trying to create a little perspective with a few observations of my own.

Like any business, public or private, management makes mistakes and bad bets.  Funny, so many want government run more like a business, but when it is, it's criticized for being too business like.  It's hard for any public-related entity to win, it seems.

Fact is, as a regulated business and a monopoly to boot, any utility is going to be criticized by its rate payers as no one likes to have only one choice in buying something they just can't live without at a price that is simply nonnegotiable.  Add, that a utility's consumption is hard to monitor in connection with its applications.  This sets the stage for an inherently unstable and adversarial relationship.

I am neither defending JEA nor attacking it but realize that there are two sides to this coin.  I see two basic components to rates: (1) fuel and (2) non-fuel costs of generation, transmission, distribution, and administration.  We all know from gas prices pretty much what oil is doing.  Natural gas and coal may track oil but may also be impacted by other factors, just as oil may be impacted more by refining capacity than well head pricing.  Overall, it appears fuel rises steadily over the long term so that component isn't likely to trend down over the years.  Likewise, facilities and payroll increase yearly just to keep up with inflation, not to mention any new building code, capacity, environmental, or other mandates.  We have also noted that "growth" rarely pays for itself and I believe existing JEA customers often get stuck subsidizing new ones.

Lastly, JEA foolishly did this with regard to non-fuel costs:

QuoteJEA's electric rates have not been increased in 14 years.

That is stupid both business-wise and politically.  It caused JEA to raise alarm bells with the bond rating agencies which don't like to see flat non-fuel revenues and rising non-fuel expenses cause a reduction in the ratio of cash flow to  debt payments (this assumes that all fuel revenues are passed through to fuel suppliers).  And, it is much harder to ask customers for a singe "makeup" increase of double digits over a short period of time after they have become accustomed to no changes for 14 years than it is to have small, inflationary style increases every year that customers can budget for and absorb incrementally.  In this respect, JEA shot itself in the foot, especially having to raise the non-fuel costs while fuel rose significantly, water and sewer rates had to be similarly "retro" raised due to similar deferred increases and investments, and the economy went into the crapper.  Add a very hot summer bookended by two very cold winters increasing consumption and you have the perfect storm.

In the utility business, being the lowest cost provider is mostly a factor of a utility's fuel mixture (unless said utility invested billions in a power plant that was not completed or closed as has occurred in other parts of the country).  JEA once made the mistake of totally relying on oil which looked smart for decades until the first oil crisis of the early 70's.  It then went from lowest to highest overnight and applied it's lessons learned to diversify its sources.  Given there are infinite fuel mixes, JEA may have the optimal choices sometimes, but not other times.  Hopefully, what diversification does offer is more stability and less extreme ups and downs.  No doubt, hydroelectric power is cheapest but we are not close to any mountain streams.  JEA may be able to share in some TVA power, but likely can only access a small share.  Nuclear is limited and presents its own risks.  Wind and solar sound nice but are not currently competitive at today's market prices for energy.  That leaves primarily oil, coal, and natural gas.   Bottom line, hydrocarbon prices are going to control our electric bills for the foreseeable future.  Anytime we see gas rising at the pump, as it is now, expect your electric rates to roughly follow a few months later.

If JEA is otherwise being grossly mismanaged, then the specifics need to be laid out clearly by its accusers.  I will be the first to offer my support once such charges are appropriately documented.  As a consumer and taxpayer, I don't like paying for gross incompetence or malfeasance anymore than the next guy.  Party on.

Quote from: stephendare on January 09, 2011, 10:38:01 PM
whats a sitll?

I guess the same thing as 'majic'  :)

Quote from: stjr on January 09, 2011, 10:44:21 PM
I just couldn't resist trying to create a little perspective with a few observations of my own.

Like any business, public or private, management makes mistakes and bad bets.  Funny, so many want government run more like a business, but when it is, it's criticized for being too business like.  It's hard for any public-related entity to win, it seems.

Fact is, as a regulated business and a monopoly to boot, any utility is going to be criticized by its rate payers as no one likes to have only one choice in buying something they just can't live without at a price that is simply nonnegotiable.  Add, that a utility's consumption is hard to monitor in connection with its applications.  This sets the stage for an inherently unstable and adversarial relationship.

I am neither defending JEA nor attacking it but realize that there are two sides to this coin.  I see two basic components to rates: (1) fuel and (2) non-fuel costs of generation, transmission, distribution, and administration.  We all know from gas prices pretty much what oil is doing.  Natural gas and coal may track oil but may also be impacted by other factors, just as oil may be impacted more by refining capacity than well head pricing.  Overall, it appears fuel rises steadily over the long term so that component isn't likely to trend down over the years.  Likewise, facilities and payroll increase yearly just to keep up with inflation, not to mention any new building code, capacity, environmental, or other mandates.  We have also noted that "growth" rarely pays for itself and I believe existing JEA customers often get stuck subsidizing new ones.

Lastly, JEA foolishly did this with regard to non-fuel costs:

QuoteJEA's electric rates have not been increased in 14 years.

That is stupid both business-wise and politically.  It caused JEA to raise alarm bells with the bond rating agencies which don't like to see flat non-fuel revenues and rising non-fuel expenses cause a reduction in the ratio of cash flow to  debt payments (this assumes that all fuel revenues are passed through to fuel suppliers).  And, it is much harder to ask customers for a singe "makeup" increase of double digits over a short period of time after they have become accustomed to no changes for 14 years than it is to have small, inflationary style increases every year that customers can budget for and absorb incrementally.  In this respect, JEA shot itself in the foot, especially having to raise the non-fuel costs while fuel rose significantly, water and sewer rates had to be similarly "retro" raised due to similar deferred increases and investments, and the economy went into the crapper.  Add a very hot summer bookended by two very cold winters increasing consumption and you have the perfect storm.

In the utility business, being the lowest cost provider is mostly a factor of a utility's fuel mixture (unless said utility invested in billions in a power plant that was not completed or closed as has occurred in other parts of the country).  JEA once made the mistake of totally relying on oil which looked smart for decades until the first oil crisis of the early 70's.  It then went from lowest to highest overnight and applied it's lessons learned to diversify its sources.  Given there are infinite fuel mixes, JEA may have the optimal choices sometimes, but not other times.  Hopefully, what diversification does offer is more stability and less extreme ups and downs.  No doubt, hydroelectric power is cheapest but we are not close to any mountain streams.  JEA may be able to share in some TVA power, but likely can only access a small share.  Nuclear is limited and presents its own risks.  Wind and solar sound nice but are not currently competitive at today's market prices for energy.  That leaves primarily oil, coal, and natural gas.   Bottom line, hydrocarbon prices are going to control our electric bills for the foreseeable future.  Anytime we see gas rising at the pump, as its is now, expect your electric rates to roughly follow a few months later.

If JEA is otherwise being grossly mismanaged, then the specifics need to be laid out clearly by its accusers.  I will be the first to offer my support once such charges are appropriately documented.  As a consumer and taxpayer, I don't like paying for gross incompetence or malfeasance anymore than the next guy.  Party on.

Did you miss the examples I mentioned? What about Stephen's article that documents that JEA is the highest cost power producer in the southeast and that manufacturers are locating facilities elsewhere that would otherwise have produced job growth here? You're OK with all that?

Quote from: stephendare on January 09, 2011, 10:41:38 PM
And lets review that statement for a minute:

Quote
About 14 years ago, Gerdau Ameristeel pushed to get off Florida Power and Light Co.’s electric grid and onto the then-much cheaper JEA, Haley said. JEA’s increase in electric rates over the past five years has been a factor in manufacturers’ choosing other sites over Jacksonville.

For instance, the city’s electric rates helped persuade Spirit AeroSystems Holdings Inc. to build a fuselage plant in North Carolina with access to cheap hydropower instead of in Jacksonville. The aviation manufacturer would have brought 900 jobs to the area and spent $800 million in capital investment.

Stephen, it appears JEA was cheap for much of the last 14 years due to its failure to properly pace its rates to its costs.  This was a "gift" to Ameristeel that appears to have been unsustainable.  JEA will never be able to compete with hydroelectric power, the cheapest power of all, as we lack mountain streams in Florida.  North Carolina and the Pacific Northwest have also attracted huge power hungry internet server facilities by Google and others for the same reasons.  If power is the single largest expense for an industry, we will not be able to compete for such industries against hydroelectric utilities.  Plain and simple.

As a fellow rate payer, I would also object to the idea of JEA offering "below cost" rates to any rate payer.  Why should I subsidize a private company, Ameristeel, with my hard earned dollars?  That the PUC prevents JEA from doing that isn't JEA's fault but, nonetheless, I am glad they can't.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on January 09, 2011, 10:49:55 PM
Did you miss the examples I mentioned? What about Stephen's article that documents that JEA is the highest cost power producer in the southeast and that manufacturers are locating facilities elsewhere that would otherwise have produced job growth here? You're OK with all that?

Chris, I noted your examples after making my post.  If they are accurate, then JEA should be reviewed for such actions.  But, as Non-redneck noted, the accusations may need to be put in context.  Why doesn't Stephen invite a JEA representative a chance to respond and let's see what they have to say.  Given that JEA is a public entity, I have to presume that much of what they do is closely watched and somewhat transparent.  So, it shouldn't be too hard to get this all laid out for everyone to see and judge for themselves.

Quote from: stjr on January 09, 2011, 10:52:24 PM

Quote from: stephendare on January 09, 2011, 10:41:38 PM
And lets review that statement for a minute:

Quote
About 14 years ago, Gerdau Ameristeel pushed to get off Florida Power and Light Co.’s electric grid and onto the then-much cheaper JEA, Haley said. JEA’s increase in electric rates over the past five years has been a factor in manufacturers’ choosing other sites over Jacksonville.

For instance, the city’s electric rates helped persuade Spirit AeroSystems Holdings Inc. to build a fuselage plant in North Carolina with access to cheap hydropower instead of in Jacksonville. The aviation manufacturer would have brought 900 jobs to the area and spent $800 million in capital investment.

Stephen, it appears JEA was cheap for much of the last 14 years due to its failure to properly pace its rates to its costs.  This was a "gift" to Ameristeel that appears to have been unsustainable.  JEA will never be able to compete with hydroelectric power, the cheapest power of all, as we lack mountain streams in Florida.  North Carolina and the Pacific Northwest have also attracted huge power hungry internet server facilities by Google and others for the same reasons.  If power is the single largest expense for an industry, we will not be able to compete for such industries against hydroelectric utilities.  Plain and simple.

As a fellow rate payer, I would also object to the idea of JEA offering "below cost" rates to any rate payer.  Why should I subsidize a private company, Ameristeel, with my hard earned dollars?  That the PUC prevents JEA from doing that isn't JEA's fault but, nonetheless, I am glad they can't.

JEA is an Operating Unit of a county government, and as such is outside the regulatory authority of the PUC.

They can set whatever rate they want, they just don't want to cut Ameristeel a break. Speaking personally, I wouldn't mind JEA breaking even on large manufacturers if it means bringing jobs into the local economy. I'm a little surprised at your position on this, actually. Nobody said anything about "below cost" either, I don't expect them to give it away below cost, but they certainly make less profit on the account to attract jobs to the community.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on January 09, 2011, 10:56:34 PM
JEA is an Operating Unit of a county government, and as such is outside then regulatory authority of the PUC.

They can set whatever rate they want, they just don't want to cut Ameristeel a break. Speaking personally, I wouldn't mind JEA breaking even on large manufacturers if it means bringing jobs into the local economy. I'm a little surprised at your position on this, actually.

Chris, I think the implication was JEA was expected to LOSE money by selling BELOW cost.  Breaking even shouldn't affect me one way or the other, but losing money would.  I think the bigger issue is if JEA is expected to compete against hydroelectric utilities, that battle is lost before it is fought.  If Ameristeel is going to stay here, as noted by the quoted site selection analyst, its going to based on more than simply its electric bill.  Maybe labor, taxes, location to suppliers, customers, transportation, etc.  If all they care about is electric, they will be moving to Carolina or Tennessee and we can't change that.

Quote from: stjr on January 09, 2011, 10:58:20 PM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on January 09, 2011, 10:49:55 PM
Did you miss the examples I mentioned? What about Stephen's article that documents that JEA is the highest cost power producer in the southeast and that manufacturers are locating facilities elsewhere that would otherwise have produced job growth here? You're OK with all that?

Chris, I noted your examples after making my post.  If they are accurate, then JEA should be reviewed for such actions.  But, as Non-redneck noted, the accusations may need to be put in context.  Why doesn't Stephen invite a JEA representative a chance to respond and let's see what they have to say.  Given that JEA is a public entity, I have to presume that much of what they do is closely watched and somewhat transparent.  So, it shouldn't be too hard to get this all laid out for everyone to see and judge for themselves.

I think you'd really be shocked. They have zero accountability to anyone, after their charter revision. They are a structured as self-controlled independent operating unit of a county government, and enjoy an extension of sovereign immunity and as a taxpayer owned utility run as though it's a private business are situated in a loophole under which no regulatory body has any control over them aside from COJ's control as a shareholder, which they never use.

Quote from: stjr on January 09, 2011, 11:03:15 PM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on January 09, 2011, 10:56:34 PM
JEA is an Operating Unit of a county government, and as such is outside then regulatory authority of the PUC.

They can set whatever rate they want, they just don't want to cut Ameristeel a break. Speaking personally, I wouldn't mind JEA breaking even on large manufacturers if it means bringing jobs into the local economy. I'm a little surprised at your position on this, actually.

Chris, I think the implication was JEA was expected to LOSE money by selling BELOW cost.  Breaking even shouldn't effect me one way or the other, but losing money would.  I think the bigger issue is if JEA is expected to compete against hydroelectric utilities, that battle is lost before it is fought.  If Ameristeel is going to stay here, as noted by the quoted site selection analyst, its going to based on more than simply it's electric bill.  Maybe labor, taxes, location to suppliers, customers, transportation, etc.  If all they care about is electric, they will be moving to Carolina or Tennessee and we can't change that.

If you reread the article, it wasn't that JEA was going to lose money on Ameristeel's account, it was that JEA expected them to pay the same high rates they charge everyone else and wouldn't even discuss the possibility of an industrial rate structure. Which prompted them to move elsewhere. Also I think we need to recognize that coal is low cost, its just dirty which is the drawback. There is no reason that JEA should have the highest rates in the southeast, to the point where businesses are locating elsewhere. Also, many resellers and co-ops that buy power from JEA (GRU and Clay Electric come to mind) buy power almost exclusively from JEA but actually have lower rates. What does that say about JEA's margins on what they're charging us Duval residents?

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on January 09, 2011, 11:08:21 PM
If you reread the article, it wasn't that JEA was going to lose money on Ameristeel's account, it was that JEA expected them to pay the same high rates they charge everyone else and wouldn't even discuss the possibility of an industrial rate structure. Which prompted them to move elsewhere. Also I think we need to recognize that coal is low cost, its just dirty which is the drawback. There is no reason that JEA should have the highest rates in the southeast, to the point where businesses are locating elsewhere. Also, many resellers and co-ops that buy power from JEA (GRU and Clay Electric come to mind) buy power almost exclusively from JEA but actually have lower rates. What does that say about JEA's margins on what they're charging us Duval residents?

Here is the quote from the Chamber rep that led me to thinking there was an expectation to sell at below cost to appease Ameristeel:

QuoteSome Southeast utilities, however, charge key manufacturers less for the electricity than it costs to produce and transport, said John Haley, vice president of business recruitment for the Cornerstone Regional Development Partnership. The reasoning is that the economic impact of jobs and capital investment created by manufacturers outweighs the additional costs that are passed on to other utility customers.

“In other [Southeast] states, it resonates very well,” Haley said. “The state of Florida is very consumer-oriented, so I don’t think you’d find that acceptance in the general populace.”

Quote
Which prompted them to move elsewhere.

Just to clarify, Ameristeel is definitely leaving?  Where to?  I note on their web site, Jax is still listed for both rebar and steel products.

Quote from: stephendare on January 09, 2011, 11:28:09 PM
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=531927

Quote
According to Dickenson’s report, Gerdau accounts for 3 percent of JEA’s electrical load but its payment for electricity accounts for 9 percent of JEA’s debt service[/b].

I would agree, based on this article, that something would be out of whack for Ameristeel here.  But, if they are paying reduced rates on non-fuel, and the fuel rates pass through to fuel vendors, I don't see how this math arises.  There must be more than meets the eye.  I do know that large industrial users also face special fees for high peak demands and/or impacting the stability of the electric grid.  Maybe these charges include a portion of debt service allocatable to capacity and stabilization infrastructure supporting Ameristeel's activities and not represented by average usage.   Who can explain it in more detail so we can follow the math?

Got my bill today- over $900 dollars and I have not used an central heat. I called and asked for a manual reading as was told I got one- which is complete BS no one has been here. They lady argued with me that yes they came to my house and read the meter. Since I have FOUR LARGE dogs outside I would like to know when that occurred. I asked her to tell me what she had on my meter for last month and what she had for this month. She could not tell me, only what my supposed usage was. Are there any attornies out there for this stuff??? I mean if not we are stuck with this *junk*

OUCH!

That she could not tell you what the meter reading was for the past and current months is complete BS.  It's printed right on your bill next to your meter number under "current reading".  You can do the math yourself if you pull your bills out and compare them.  You can look them up online too.

One other thing to check;  find the number on your meter and compare it to the number on your bill.  Make sure it's your electricity that you are paying for not someone else's.  This error usually occurs in multi-unit housing, but has been known to occur almost anywhere.

$900?  OW! OW! OW!

They finally agreed to send someone out, as we were on the phone their "reading" was not matching the meter.

Even the person on the phone said something does not seem right, as this was triple usage from anything over the last 12 months!

Quote from: stephendare on January 09, 2011, 11:28:09 PM
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=531927

Quote
JEA board: Little hope for rate reduction for Gerdau Ameristeel
09/22/2010
by Max Marbut
Staff Writer

At the beginning of Tuesday’s meeting of JEA’s board of directors, City Council liaison Stephen Joost made a plea for a reduction in the price that Gerdau Ameristeel, a steel mill in Baldwin, pays for electricity.

He echoed points made in a memo sent by First Coast Manufacturers Association President Lad Daniels to JEA board members Monday and reported Tuesday in the Daily Record.

“I view JEA as an electric company able to help with economic development,” said Joost.

He also told the board that Gerdau Ameristeel might secure a contract to produce materials for the Panama Canal expansion project that could mean as much as $200 million in increased production.


................................


JEA Managing Director and CEO Jim Dickenson presented data to board members detailing Gerdau’s current rate structure and consumption history. He told the board that Gerdau had been granted a discount per kilowatt hour based on the cost of service.

“Their load is the same as 20,000 residential accounts,” although it costs less to service large commercial accounts, said Dickenson. “But everybody pays the same fuel rate. A ton of coal is a ton of coal.”

Dickenson said part of the discount is based on JEA’s ability to interrupt service to the steel mill during periods of peak electrical consumption throughout the system, as in the case of very hot or very cold days.

“We are able to interrupt those customers instead of building more capacity or buying more electricity” from other utilities, said Dickenson.

He said Gerdau’s concept in requesting the additional rate reduction is that the mill is using electricity that JEA doesn’t need and the company doesn’t want to contribute to fixed costs, including debt service.

According to Dickenson’s report, Gerdau accounts for 3 percent of JEA’s electrical load but its payment for electricity accounts for 9 percent of JEA’s debt service.

I know someone who works for JEA and according to him Ameristeel is the largest consumer of power in the city.  They use quite a lot of power - around 12MW or so.  I hear JEA had to devote an entire team of resources just running power to that facility.  Something about when that facility is on, it wrecks havoc in the electric grid.  Form JEA perspective, it sounds like Ameristeel is a headache rather than a benefit which may be why they don't like working with them.  

I have been VERY fournate not to have any issues with JEA. My parents have not either, and they have a 3 bedroom house. Their bill is never over $200.00. Im so parnoid, I always check my meter. I subtract the usage from last months usage and input that number in the calculator on their website and it will tell you exactly what your bill is (at that time). Ive been using it for years and its 100% percent accurate. I usually check it mid month to make sure things dont look crazy, or if I need to decrease my usage. This way Im not sticker shocked when I get the bill.

My bill is never over $300 a month, and I have not changed my usage. Obviously they do not check meters, and our meter did not match what they had....that speaks volumes.

No they don't check the meters anymore, they have this HAL2000 computer that "projects" what they think your usage is based on nobody-knows-what, so that they could lay off all the meter readers and cut their costs. So you have to bust them on it by photographing your meter readouts for two months on the dates your bills drop and then wait a year for a refund of all the money they overcharged you.

Wonder how many people are going through this? Seems like class-action territory...

I think that they are in the process of changing all of the meters to digital meters that can be read remotely. If you have one of the older meters with needles and dials rather than a digital read-out you might ask if it is remote read.

My meter is the old style meter and my electric bills didn't skyrocket like some people are reporting when they laid off the meter readers, rather, I usually have bills <$150 in winter which offsets my $350+ bills during summer. After they quit reading the meters and started estimating, surprise surprise my bill is now the same in winter as it was in summer even though I'm using 1/3'rd of the power. I'm one of this weirdos who likes it cold so I use very little power in winter.

Also, all you guys with the heat pumps running 24/7, here's the deal with that. They are only efficient when the inside temperature and outside temperatures are within a 20-30 degree spread of each other. Beyond that, they are horribly inefficient and will run constantly for very little benefit. That's just the limitations of the technology. Most people like it about 70 inside so the truth is that when the outside temps are below about 45 you're actually much better off just shutting down the compressor and letting the electric heat strips cycle every so often instead of having the compressor laboring constantly. You are using a lot more power at that point because of the inefficiency.

Chris, this article from Wikipedia suggests heat pumps are conventionally efficient down to as low as 17 degrees, and with modifications, even -13 degrees.  I have generally been told by HVAC locals that they are good down to around the mid to high 20's at least.  Not sure if other factors, such as humidity and desired inside temp effect the range, but it appears that may be the case from the full Wikipedia article.

QuoteAir-source heat pumps

Air source heat pumps are relatively easy (and inexpensive) to install and have therefore historically been the most widely used heat pump type. However, they suffer limitations due to their use of the outside air as a heat source or sink. The higher temperature differential during periods of extreme cold or heat leads to declining efficiency, as explained above. In mild weather, COP may be around 4.0, while at temperatures below around −8 °C (17 °F) an air-source heat pump can achieve a COP of 2.5 or better, which is considerably more than the COP that may be achieved by conventional heating systems. The average COP over seasonal variation is typically 2.5-2.8,[9] with exceptional models able to exceed 6.0 (2.8 kW).[10]

Air source heat pumps for cold climates

At least two manufacturers[11] [12]are selling heat pumps that maintain better heating performance at lower outside temperatures than conventional air source heat pumps. These low temperature optimized models make heat pumps more practical for cold climates. In areas where only one fossil fuel is currently available (e.g. heating oil; no natural gas pipes available) these heat pumps could be used as an alternative, supplemental heat source to reduce a building's direct dependence on fossil fuel. Depending on fuel and electricity prices, using the heat pump for heating may be less expensive than fossil fuel. A backup, fossil-fuel heat source may still be required for the coldest days.

The heating performance of low temperature optimized heat pumps still declines as the temperature drops, but the threshold at which the decline starts is lower than conventional pumps, as shown in the following table (temperatures are approximate and may vary by manufacturer and model):

Air Source Heat Pump Type /   Full heat output at or above this temperature /   Heat output down to 60% of maximum at
Conventional /   47 °F (8.3 °C) /   17 °F (-8.3 °C)
Low Temp Optimized /   14 °F (-10 °C) /   -13 °F (-25 °C)

Full article at:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump

I know that's what the manufacturers claim, but if you watch what happens when it gets down to about 40 the thing runs constantly and can't keep it a solid 70 inside. When it gets to the point where the heat pump is running 45 minutes out of the hour, you're to the point where letting the heat strips cycle would probably save you money.

If you think about it for a minute, you'd realize that heat pumps are effectively useless by at least the mid-30 degree range, because they turn into blocks of ice and lose all efficiency at heat transfer at that point. I'll photograph one for you frozen over when we have another cold snap, you'll see my point. People up north where it's cold longer than here know better than this, they all have separate ac and heat systems.

I'm not a scientist, these are just my observations, but in my experience heat pumps are much less efficient than other sources under about 40 degrees.

QuotePros and Cons of Heat Pumps

Heat pumps can help consumers save on utilities, but they have limitations. First, they tend to be somewhat ineffective in any climate where the outdoor air temperature falls near or below freezing on a regular basis. This is because moving heat from a very cold area to a hotter one takes more energy than moving heat between two areas with a more moderate temperature difference. There's also more heat available outside in a moderate climate than in a cold climate. It's important to note that even in a cold climate, there's still heat in the outside air to be pumped indoors, but the unit needs to work harder to extract the heat that is available. Supplemental energy may be required to make the heat pump produce enough warmth to comfortably heat your home when the temperature falls below freezing.

http://home.howstuffworks.com/home-improvement/heating-and-cooling/heat-pump4.htm

why  are there TWO Jea topics going on talking about the same thing. One of these need to be locked.

While the lessons in JEA politics from Stephen, Redneck, ChrisUFGator and Stjr are facinating and educational :-), to get back to the more practical, and ways to reduce our electric bill, no matter why it's too high.....I found this useful information at: http://homeimprovement.lovetoknow.com/How_to_Winterize_Windows_with_Plastic

How to Winterize Windows with Plastic
Winterizing your windows with plastic is best accomplished with two people. You should be able to winterize all the windows in your home within a few hours. Before beginning, measure your windows and gather the following supplies:

•Window caulk
•Caulk gun
•Weather stripping
•Plastic sheeting sized to your windows
•Heavy-duty double sided tape
•Hair dryer
To begin, stop any drafts that are coming in with weather stripping and caulk.

1.Peel the backing off of the weather stripping and use it to seal the edges of the windows. Press it firmly along the edge of the glass and sill.
2.Locate any loose window panes and have your assistant push them until the gap between the pane and its edge is visible. Apply a thin bead of caulk into these cracks and allow the window pane to settle back into place.
3.Place a row of double sided tape at the top of the window approximately 1 inch in from the glass.
4.Stretch the plastic across the top of the window tightly, pressing it onto the tape.
5.Run a line of tape down the sides of the window sill, 1 inch from the glass, and a final row of tape across the bottom edge.
6.Pull the plastic down firmly, smoothing it onto the tape on the sides and across the bottom to seal.
7.Turn the hair dryer on high heat, and aim it at the plastic to shrink it. Move the hair dryer back and forth in across the plastic continuously until the plastic shrinks to a form a tight sheet across your window with no wrinkles or creases. Avoid placing the hair dryer too close to the plastic or you may burn through.

Now, after a year has gone by for these people and after 6 rate raises, how are people fairing? I am new here and find JEA a Jacksonville authorized extortionist. What do you say to a boycott, or maybe an anti-trust lawsuit on behalf of the citizen's of Jacksonville? Did you know it is illegal to have a monopoly in the UNITED STATES!!! What if anything are your local politician's doing to remedy the issues. I bet, nothing, because the utility is GOD says so!!! We have been without power for a month waiting on JEA and the antiquated system you all have for asking for assistance. I just wrote the Mayor and the Governor's Offices to complain everyone should do the same here is a copy of what I sent the Mayor "I would like to know if you intend on doing anything about the MONOPOLY going by the name of JEA! They answer to no one, they care about no one, and they serve no one. Service is a term they bandy about, but do little of. I here from everyone even JEA employee's about how little they care about them, and the status quot is letting them get away with sticking it to the poor and those whom try to replace them as the God on high in Jacksonville, FL. I moved here from California over a month ago and have found it hard to have the power and water turned on to the house we are supposed to be renting. We have had to rely on the charity of others while we wait to get the utilities on. Where are we supposed to stay while JEA sends us 5 times to their offices to jump hurdle after hurdle. While they come to the house to remove meters, rather than turning them on, so they can charge us for them to be reinstalled? How can they be allowed to run unchecked and raise the rates 6 times in a year? Do you not feel for the poor, do you not give a damn about how we are supposed to survive in this city? Also, the system you have for getting assistance with utility extortion deposits are unfair and time consuming. To have to dial and dial a phone number that is never available for weeks on end, and have someone from next door try once and get through, is ludicrous. It should be first come first served. WHAT DO YOU INTEND TO DO!!!!" :( :( :( :( :( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

please provide sources for the 6 rate increases that happened this year....because all I know is, with the exception of 2 months, my utility bills have been lower in 2011 than in 2010.

Quote from: scifinutapril on January 10, 2012, 05:03:55 PM
Now, after a year has gone by for these people and after 6 rate raises, how are people fairing? I am new here and find JEA a Jacksonville authorized extortionist. What do you say to a boycott, or maybe an anti-trust lawsuit on behalf of the citizen's of Jacksonville? Did you know it is illegal to have a monopoly in the UNITED STATES!!! What if anything are your local politician's doing to remedy the issues. I bet, nothing, because the utility is GOD says so!!! We have been without power for a month waiting on JEA and the antiquated system you all have for asking for assistance. I just wrote the Mayor and the Governor's Offices to complain everyone should do the same here is a copy of what I sent the Mayor "I would like to know if you intend on doing anything about the MONOPOLY going by the name of JEA! They answer to no one, they care about no one, and they serve no one. Service is a term they bandy about, but do little of. I here from everyone even JEA employee's about how little they care about them, and the status quot is letting them get away with sticking it to the poor and those whom try to replace them as the God on high in Jacksonville, FL. I moved here from California over a month ago and have found it hard to have the power and water turned on to the house we are supposed to be renting. We have had to rely on the charity of others while we wait to get the utilities on. Where are we supposed to stay while JEA sends us 5 times to their offices to jump hurdle after hurdle. While they come to the house to remove meters, rather than turning them on, so they can charge us for them to be reinstalled? How can they be allowed to run unchecked and raise the rates 6 times in a year? Do you not feel for the poor, do you not give a damn about how we are supposed to survive in this city? Also, the system you have for getting assistance with utility extortion deposits are unfair and time consuming. To have to dial and dial a phone number that is never available for weeks on end, and have someone from next door try once and get through, is ludicrous. It should be first come first served. WHAT DO YOU INTEND TO DO!!!!" :( :( :( :( :( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

I feel for you April and you're right JEA is total bullshit.  With no competition there is no incentive for them to lower rates.  Also, watch out for the "residential deposit".  That is a fee you will find on your bill if you've had any "infractions" in the year (i.e., being late on a payment or having service turned off).  Last winter I got 700 and 800 dollar electric bills (1200 sq foot house).  It was my first winter in an older house and my AC was running 24/7 but it wouldn't get over 48 degrees.  I had no idea the house was like that so I was panicking.  Last winter was MUCH colder -- many more freeze days.  I figured out my house wasn't warming was because all the heat was going out of the roof because there was no insulation in the attic.  Anyway though, because of those ginormous bills, I couldn't pay in time, and JEA shut off my service for all of 12 hours.  A few months later I ended up with a $950 bill and I was like what the hell is this??  The Residential Deposit (such word choice) is calculated as 2 times your average monthly bill.  So all of a sudden one month you will get a bill that is 3 times your normal bill. They just make this shit up as they go.  They charge whatever they want.  And no one does anything about it.  They ARE extortionists because they have control over your access to an essential service.  They turn off the water when they turn off the electricity too.  This should not happen when someone is a month or even 3 months late imho.  In some places it's illegal to shut off electricity in the winter because people may die.  Sometimes older folks deal with a similar problem here in the summer -- no AC and heat stroke.  There should be choices for energy providers.  There should also be compassion and understanding that running water and electricity are essential these days.

I'm sorry you're dealing this.  Welcome to Jacksonville!  I'm glad you have some good people to help you out.  I have no idea how one would go about getting this JEA situation rectified though.

QuoteLast winter I got 700 and 800 dollar electric bills (1200 sq foot house).  It was my first winter in an older house and my AC was running 24/7 but it wouldn't get over 48 degrees.

This pretty much says it all.  $800 is outrageous!  Your house wasting energy by the bucket.  Get a free energy audit from JEA... caulk and insulate.  My 1700 sq ft house heating costs are half or less.

<repeat, repeat>  I will not get sucked into this thread again...

no stephendare...I do not have a six figure income...unless you count the comma  ;)

Here's the deal....my monthly utility bills in 2011 (electric, water, sewer) ran anywhere from $125 to $225 depending on whether the heat/AC was on....and thats for a nearly 1800sf townhome with 3 exterior walls (end unit), 19 windows, and 2 sliding glass doors.

The only part of the bill that annoys me is the water/sewer....my bill is routinely about $70 as that seems to be the minimum charge.

I'm not suggesting that JEA is altruistic and perfect...I'm just asking for proof that there have been 6 rate increases this year.

Keep in mind that America's thirst for energy keeps going up as do the costs of developing that energy.....so JEA and other utilities have to build new plants and many want them invest in cleaner technologies such as wind and solar...so where should they get the money to do that?

well I would say 2 things

1. much of the utility's profits go back into the City's general fund (discussed in this thread last year I believe)....without that, our property and/or sales taxes would likely be higher

2. JEA rates are not ludicrous...as shown in that same previous thread, their rates are comparable with other utilities in Florida....both public-owned and private.

Now I do understand that JEA can be a bit harsh when it comes to late/overdue payments....but I've also heard stories where they will work with customers onm payments plans and the like...plus there are non-profits out there that help with paying utility bills for folks.

Since you made a wise crack about my income earlier, I'll take this opportunity to say that I am involved with some of the organizations that do this....and that my decent salary provides the opportunity for me to give to these charities monetarily (in addition to the amount of time I spend volunteering).

Quote from: tufsu1 on January 09, 2011, 05:26:11 PM
here's the deal folks...stop blaming the rates and look at how much energy you used instead...in December 2009 I used about 350kwh....this year it was closer to 950kwh.......not surprisingly, my bill more than doubled.

here's an update...with more reasonable temps in December 2011, I used only 315kwh...and my electric bill was back down to almost what it was in 2009

I found this old comment while researching other comments from last year in this thread.

I recommend people check out #20, 33, 37, 39, 64, 71, 81, and 87

and what does their hook-up problems have to do with rate increases?

Quote from: BridgeTroll on January 11, 2012, 07:07:47 AM

QuoteLast winter I got 700 and 800 dollar electric bills (1200 sq foot house).  It was my first winter in an older house and my AC was running 24/7 but it wouldn't get over 48 degrees.

This pretty much says it all.  $800 is outrageous!  Your house wasting energy by the bucket.  Get a free energy audit from JEA... caulk and insulate.  My 1700 sq ft house heating costs are half or less.

Unfortunately, I rent and cannot do a lot in the way of weatherizing the house!  I got my landlord to insulate the attic after much whining but the thing that helped most was getting a gas furnance.  Now I don't even use HVAC in the winter for heat... I use the furnace and I've never had a gas bill over 50 dollars (it's the only thing I use the gas for though -- everything else is electric).  It does a very good job!  Last winter was a nightmare though.  I was about to go to a hotel!

As for the payment plan folks are talking about... being arbitrariliy charged an extra 600+ bucks and then having the "priviledge" to break that up over 6 months doesn't exactly give me a warm fuzzy.

My personal opinion is that no organization should be allowed to profit obscenely off of essential goods and services -- housing, food, utilities, healthcare.  But since we *NEED* these things they provide they really have us over a barrell and no one's stopping them from trying to take us to the cleaners.  I don't know about you, but after housing, food, utilities and healthcare, there isn't much left!  And that's exactly where they want to keep us all -- treading water.  I'm not complaining -- I live pretty well... but when you allow these entities/systems to keep everyone in a constant struggle for the barest essentials, it creates a lot of stress, sickness and suffering (and crime!) and I personally am not for that.  Make your obscene profits off schmancy cars and furniture and boutiques and salons... but there should be something sacred about housing, food, utilities and healthcare, and every effort should be made in keeping those at a reasonable cost for everyone (yes, everyone!).  Sorry kinda got off on a tangent there, but I really feel for the people who are struggling to keep a roof over their heads and the toilets flushing!

Quote from: hypnotoad on January 11, 2012, 10:53:20 AM
My personal opinion is that no organization should be allowed to profit obscenely off of essential goods and services -- housing, food, utilities, healthcare. 

I agree with you 100%....and that's part of the reason (along with the monopoly thing) that these entities have to get governmental approvals for rate changes.

http://www.psc.state.fl.us/

It is my understanding that the Public Service Commission only regulates and sets rates for private utilities like Florida Power and cannot regulate "public" utilities like JEA.  Is my understanding correct?

from the PSC website...

QuoteWho Does the PSC Regulate?
During 2010, the PSC regulated five investor-owned electric companies, seven investor-owned natural gas utilities, and more than 150 investor-owned water and/or wastewater utilities. The PSC also had competitive market oversight for more than 945 telecommunications companies in Florida.

The number of certificated telecommunications companies or registered interexchange companies as of December 2010, was as follows:

•10 incumbent local exchange companies (ILECs)
•297 competitive local exchange companies (CLECs)
•481 interexchange companies (IXCs)
•113 pay telephone service companies (PATs)
•25 alternative access vendors (AAVs)
•20 shared tenant service providers (STS)

While the PSC does not fully regulate publicly owned municipal or cooperative electric utilities, the Commission does have jurisdiction, with regard to rate structure, territorial boundaries, bulk power supply operations and planning, over 35 municipally owned electric systems and 18 rural electric cooperatives. The PSC has jurisdiction, with regard to territorial boundaries and safety, over 27 municipally owned natural gas utilities and also exercises safety authority over all electric and natural gas systems operating in the state. For information on services the PSC does and does not regulate, see our brochure entitled When to Call the PSC.

QuoteHow Are Your Rates Set?
Whenever a jurisdictional rate-base-regulated gas, electric, telephone, water or wastewater company wants to change its rates, it must receive permission from the PSC. The PSC then investigates its request and sets new rate levels if the request is valid. The investigation is extensive, with many PSC staff members helping the Commission assess the company's request. The Public Service Commission has the responsibility to set rates that are fair, just and reasonable. It is also required to set rates to allow utility investors an opportunity to earn a reasonable return on their investment.

Thanks, TUFSU.  So PSC can regulate rates for JEA, but not a lot of other stuff.

........ Now I don't even use HVAC in the winter for heat... I use the furnace ......................[/quote]


HVAC = Heat Ventilation Air Conditioning.

You use the furnace you use HVAC.

Quote from: Overstreet on January 12, 2012, 02:25:56 PM
HVAC = Heat Ventilation Air Conditioning.

You use the furnace you use HVAC.

+1

You probably also call people out for using their 'hot water heater' and their 'frozen ice dispenser'.   ;D

No, really, I prefer my ice to be 'unfrozen'.  They call it water.

I'm sure she meant heat pump!

Quote from: Overstreet on January 12, 2012, 02:25:56 PM
........ Now I don't even use HVAC in the winter for heat... I use the furnace ......................

HVAC = Heat Ventilation Air Conditioning.

You use the furnace you use HVAC.
[/quote]

Not sure if you're trying to be an ass or what -- I'm a software developer not a general contractor.  I use a gas furnace for heat, not the air conditioner.  I was trying to make a suggestion to be helpful to others having heating issues in their house.  Hey, at least you got one thing right today though.

Anyone have more info of this practice of "Averaging" the bills that ChriswUFgator mentioned on page 11?
My summer bill with 2 A/C  units for two floors can be $300-450 a month.
Last winter as an experiment I got the bill down to $125. This was living in the dark with downstairs heat only turned on below 30. (no heat pump/heat strips upstairs)
Now it seems the winter bills have come up.
They can do this? Charge for a service based on speculation?
They actually gave up reading meters?

they occassionally miss the meter one month and speculate (which in my case seems to usually be high)....I then get a lower bill than normal the next month when they do read tyhe meter

Good golly, let's point the finger at someone for JEA's high prices, might as well add on CSX to blame. After all the coal for the Northside Generating station comes by way of rail, and it does not come from the sky. So blame some of those costs for higher prices on CSX.

Most of the power Jacksonville uses anyway comes from Plant Vogle in Georgia, and sent down over transmission lines. Its far cheaper to consume power made in Georgia than to consume the stuff the SJRPP or Northside or Southside stations manufacturer.

JEA is a business, and it does put money back into the City coffers, would it be better to throw the money to FPL or Georgia Power? How about Progress Energy? No one has seen high prices for power until you get to South Florida. OMG, we think we have it rough!

West Va, lucky SOB's, little load and all the coal they can dig out of the ground!

QuoteDo not, repeat NOT, go to gas from TECO. Their prices will rock you to your socks. High prices and year round service charges. My sister disconnected her gas heat from TECO and is using space heaters in the rooms where they spend time - the living room on during the evening and the bedroom/bathroom at night.

I have had TECO for 12 years in Avondale, had an upstairs gas furnace for 2nd floor, 80 gallon hot water heater and stove with gas, I like having an alternative. Much cheaper to use gas for a backup generator in residential. RAP would have a PURPLE COW if I added a 500 gallon tank in my backyard for backup generator fuel.

Mtrain,  information request;  How does natural gas get pumped in a widespread power outage?  I considered a natural gas backup generator, but TECO couldn't answer my question about the reliability of their supply in a regional outage so I opted for a portable generator.

My guest house on TECO gas for heat, stove get charged $17.00/ month whether I use gas or not.  One of my neighbors who had TECO gas and $400/month heat bills in the winter shifted to high SEER heat pumps and cut her heat bills in half.

We keep reading in the newspaper how there is a glut of natural gas in this country and how the prices have never been lower.  Have you seen a reduction in your BTU charge from TECO or are they keeping their rates high and pocketing the difference?

I came across this by accident? Have you heard of "Smart Meters" it seems no one has. But right now there could be a smart meter on your home or business right now. Now if you go on the JEA website and put in smart meter nothing comes up? But put in the word meter alone and you get 32 hits and here is one you should read (
How to Read My Meter



Home
Manage My Account
Get Help
Understand My Bill
How to Read My Meter



We’re committed to our customers, and we believe our customers expect and deserve the best service and state-of-the-art equipment. Accurate, timely meter reading and accurate billing are a key part of providing good service. Network Meter Reading (NMR), which doesn’t require a meter reader to come to your home, offers many benefits to our customers, which include:
•Timely and accurate meter reading, even in bad weather or in places where the meter is difficult to read.
•No more estimated bills due to locked gates, limited access to the customer's meter, dogs in the yard, etc.
•No intrusion onto customer property. Currently, most meters are read each month by a person who has to enter the yard physically.
•Our engineers will now have the capability of taking an area "snap shot" of the electric load for planning purposes and be able to correctly size transformers, increasing electric reliability in your area.)


And check these website's out also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_meter_reading and one more site http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/the-smarter-grid/privacy-on-the-smart-grid

They've been around for several years now. They're the digital meters that upload their usage to a cellular network every day; so even though you're billed for a month's usage, power usage for each day can be examined.

The "smart grid" is more of a buzzword used to describe meters even "smarter" than this (2-way meters) that can be disconnected or controlled remotely.

Quote from: Josh on September 27, 2012, 11:59:56 AM
They've been around for several years now. They're the digital meters that upload their usage to a cellular network every day; so even though you're billed for a month's usage, power usage for each day can be looked examined.

The "smart grid" is more of a buzzword used to describe meters even "smarter" than this (2-way meters) that can be disconnected or controlled remotely.

Thanks for the info Josh I have lived in Jax for over 40 years and I never heard about smart meter's until yesterday and the technology that goes with it. :)

QuoteThanks for the info Josh I have lived in Jax for over 40 years and I never heard about smart meter's until yesterday and the technology that goes with it.

Wow, Schlumberger has had them installed since 1995. Not new by any stretch of the imagination....

Quote from: mtraininjax on September 27, 2012, 09:40:06 PM

QuoteThanks for the info Josh I have lived in Jax for over 40 years and I never heard about smart meter's until yesterday and the technology that goes with it.

Wow, Schlumberger has had them installed since 1995. Not new by any stretch of the imagination....

I didn't care I paid my bill and moved on.

It looks like JEA does have on and off peak rates available for residential service, but it says 'optional' so you may have to specifically ask for it. However, you probably don't want to ask for it because it will probably cost more.

RESIDENTIAL SERVICE

Rate Per Month: $5.50 Customer Charge, plus
6.624 cent per kWh
plus applicable Fuel, Environmental, and Conservation Charges


RESIDENTIAL TIME OF DAY SERVICE (OPTIONAL)

Rate Per Month $14.30 Customer Charge, plus
12.426 cent per kWh during On-Peak hours
4.006 cent per kWh during Off-Peak hours
plus applicable Fuel, Environmental, and Conservation Charges

On-peak periods shall be defined as follows:
6 a.m.-10 a.m. - November through March, weekdays only
6 p.m.-10 p.m. - November through March, weekdays only
12 Noon-9 p.m. - April through October; weekdays only

Page 14 -15
https://www.jea.com/About_Us/Tariffs_and_Reports/Electric_Tariff_Effective_11-22-12.aspx

Also, according to my bill for 2,000 gallons, JEA is charging 2.85 cents per gallon (including sewer). Seems expensive.

For 3,000 gallons they charge 2.134 cents per gallon.

4,000 gallons = 1.774 cents per gallon.

Quote from: Lunican on September 25, 2013, 04:42:15 PM
For 3,000 gallons they charge 2.134 cents per gallon.

4,000 gallons = 1.774 cents per gallon.

Is there any way for JEA to spit out a compare to show what the optional billing will look like? Maybe my off-peak use justifies peak metering.

So does anyone else think that 2.85 cents per gallon is extremely high for city water? I guess they are charging extra for all the chlorine and calcium?

Quote from: Lunican on September 26, 2013, 09:11:39 AM
So does anyone else think that 2.85 cents per gallon is extremely high for city water? I guess they are charging extra for all the chlorine and calcium?

Me thinks that's per 100 gal....

Quote from: Lunican on September 26, 2013, 09:11:39 AM
So does anyone else think that 2.85 cents per gallon is extremely high for city water? I guess they are charging extra for all the chlorine and calcium?

Yes, because that's not correct.

$57.06 for 2000 gallons of water and sewer equals 2.853 cents per gallon.

I believe there is a minimum charge for sewer and water.....so its not just a per gallon rate, but starts with a base charge....kind of like almost any repair business.

Quote from: Lunican on September 26, 2013, 11:08:07 AM
$57.06 for 2000 gallons of water and sewer equals 2.853 cents per gallon.

I think it is 1.427 cents per gallon coming out of the tap... and the same going down the drain... equalling 2.853. 8)

(http://i.imgur.com/8j7blNW.jpg)

$36.58 - Water
$73.67 - Sewer
$110.25 - Total Cost (Including Fixed Costs - SAC, EC & FF)

10,000 gal Usage = $.011/ gal

Plus, my rate increases, not decreases, as I move up into different usage tiers. 

I thinkhere's where you math starts to get a little screwy:

I believe are the fixed costs that I mentioned above which aren't dependent of usage, but where you live.

Service Availability Charge - $26.7/month
Environmental Charge - $7.40 / month
Franchise Fee - $3.12 / month

So I'm looking at $37.22 before I even get a glass of flouride contaminated water.

And once you take those fixed costs out (thanks sprawling city) you're pay a little less than a $.01/gal

$57.06 - $37.22 = $19.84 / 2,000 gal = $.009 / gal

It looks like they have been increasing their service availability charge pretty dramatically over the past few years. In 2008 the sewer service availability charge for a 3/4" meter was $6.57. Today it is $21.15.

Service Availability Rates 2008 - 3/4" meter
Water: $15.10
Sewer: $6.57
Total: $21.67

Service Availability Rates 2013 - 3/4" meter
Water: $18.90
Sewer: $21.15
Total: $40.05

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on September 26, 2013, 11:28:02 AM
And once you take those fixed costs out (thanks sprawling city) you're pay a little less than a $.01/gal

$57.06 - $37.22 = $19.84 / 2,000 gal = $.009 / gal

I'm sorry, why would I take out the fixed costs when calculating the cost?

By the way NRWS, you used 5 times as much water as I did and paid less than twice as much.

Quote from: Lunican on September 26, 2013, 11:29:53 AM
It looks like they have been increasing their service availability charge pretty dramatically over the past few years. In 2008 the sewer service availability charge for a 3/4" meter was $6.57. Today it is $21.15.

Service Availability Rates 2008 - 3/4" meter
Water: $15.10
Sewer: $6.57
Total: $21.67

Service Availability Rates 2013 - 3/4" meter
Water: $18.90
Sewer: $21.15
Total: $40.05

I'm sure you can thank all of the outlying developments for that. 

Quote from: Lunican on September 26, 2013, 11:31:41 AM
I'm sorry, why would I take out the fixed costs when calculating the cost?

You're right.  You shouldn't.  I would suggest using more water and lowering your per gallon cost to a price point per gallon that you're more comfortable with.  Maybe leave some hoses out and sign that let's your neighbors know that you feel $.025 is too much to pay for water and that you'd like them to help themselves so that you can pay closer to $.01 like a 'normal' person.  ::)

Quote from: stephendare on September 26, 2013, 11:32:59 AM

Quote from: Lunican on September 26, 2013, 11:31:41 AM

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on September 26, 2013, 11:28:02 AM
And once you take those fixed costs out (thanks sprawling city) you're pay a little less than a $.01/gal

$57.06 - $37.22 = $19.84 / 2,000 gal = $.009 / gal

I'm sorry, why would I take out the fixed costs when calculating the cost?

because it magically makes the costs seem lower.

And this transparent ploy apparently works with a certain percentage of the people

Dear Stephen, you and I have already traveled this road. 

Since the 2 or so years that this thread originated, have you figured out a 'fair' price for electricity?  ;)

For comparison, I have a water bill from a suburb of Orlando and the total cost per gallon is 0.828 cents.

But keep in mind that JEA is the cheapest utility in the country so these numbers don't mean anything I guess.

Quote from: Lunican on September 26, 2013, 11:54:01 AM
For comparison, I have a water bill from a suburb of Orlando and the total cost per gallon is 0.828 cents.

But keep in mind that JEA is the cheapest utility in the country so these numbers don't mean anything I guess.

Well damn.  So I guess if I only used 1 gallon, I'd be paying almost $30/gal - highway robbery if you ask me.  I can go to the store and get a gallon of water for about $1. 

This discussion is pointless.  Great.  You think you pay too much.  I'll call JEA for you and have them turn off the service.  What's the address?

For the cheapest utility in the nation, they don't stack up that well in price.

Unless you first subtract random numbers from the bill... then they are ok.

Quote from: Lunican on September 26, 2013, 12:05:19 PM
For the cheapest utility in the nation, they don't stack up that well in price.

Unless you first subtract random numbers from the bill... then they are ok.

I'm not reading back through both the threads.  Does JEA even claim (anymore) that they're the cheapest in the nation?

You would think if they were, it would be plastered all over their home page;  I didn't see it.

I'll go ahead and send an email to their marketing department.  A change is needed! 

"The Most Average, Uniquely Typical Utility in the Nation for the Time Being"

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on September 26, 2013, 12:16:41 PM
I'm not reading back through both the threads.  Does JEA even claim (anymore) that they're the cheapest in the nation?

not anytime recently that I know of.  JEA fits squarely in the middle among utility companies in Florida.  It is higher than some, such as Orlando Utilities Commission, and lower than others (like TECO in Tampa).

Our JEA is well into the Black financially.  I think they may be able to give better rates to the public and at least cut back on the sizable deposits that are required of people.  Many of them well over $800.00, a burden that generally falls of the backs of the people who struggle to keep their bills current as well as the astronomical charges for service restarts for those who have fallen back on their bills.  It is a harmful and costly punitive that is damaging to many local families.  JEA could do much better with these issues.

if JEA cuts back on their rates, I'm sure they'd also cut back on the sizeable contribution they make annually to the City....which in turn would yield to higher property taxes....bottom line, no savings!

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 26, 2013, 08:47:10 PM
if JEA cuts back on their rates, I'm sure they'd also cut back on the sizeable contribution they make annually to the City....which in turn would yield to higher property taxes....bottom line, no savings!

Perhaps, but adjusting their deposit requirements as well as reducing the reconnection fees for those who lose service will do nothing to impact their bottom line but would make a world of difference to customers.

I came to this board to find answers as to how JEA can charge these prodigious rates for "Service Availability Charges"? I own a single family home and as a single resident I use very little water. The actual charges in consumption equate to $19.52 while my "Service Availability Charges" equals $97.25. My understanding is there is very little I can do to reduce this bill outside of terminating services. Anyone else in the same boat and found a solution for overall reduction of service fees?

I feel the same way, my wife and I just moved here from San Diego..where you would expect water and electric to be much more expensive (considering San Diego has been in a drought for forever now), yet for some reason both bills I have received from JEA have been more than twice the highest bill that I had in San Diego..and my house in San Diego was bigger! It's insane. And the fact that there isn't a petition in JAX for a competitive company to come in and force lower rates is absolutely mind blowing. Where are the politicians? They have a monopoly on electricity in my neighborhood.

JEA charged people who didn't have any power during hurricane Mathew. Definitely something not right about that.
Meanwhile, the CEO who wasn't here during the storm is getting a 15% bonus, which is just $65,000 of his salary:
http://www.news4jax.com/top-stories/jea-board-to-discuss-possible-bonus-for-ceo_

Aren't monopolies great?

Quote from: mellowman28 on November 15, 2016, 01:14:56 PM
I feel the same way, my wife and I just moved here from San Diego..where you would expect water and electric to be much more expensive (considering San Diego has been in a drought for forever now), yet for some reason both bills I have received from JEA have been more than twice the highest bill that I had in San Diego..and my house in San Diego was bigger! It's insane. And the fact that there isn't a petition in JAX for a competitive company to come in and force lower rates is absolutely mind blowing. Where are the politicians? They have a monopoly on electricity in my neighborhood.

Don't ALL neighborhoods operate under a monopoly?

San Diego never gets below 60 and never above 80. Ergo, the heat/air never kick on.  That probably explains the difference.

Quote from: vicupstate on November 15, 2016, 04:49:14 PM
Don't ALL neighborhoods operate under a monopoly?

San Diego never gets below 60 and never above 80. Ergo, the heat/air never kick on.  That probably explains the difference.

Sadly, yes they do. In areas where legal monopolies were removed (like Chattanooga) the internet is the best in the country.

I always thought California had one of the highest costs of living in the country? Certainly you'd think water would cost more.

JEA does not give "bonuses". This is incentive compensation per his employment agreement based on predetermined targets. Hopefully, the requirements are rigorous and the extra comp is well-earned. If not, we have our public appointed board (overhauled by Curry) to thank.

news4jax says it IS a "bonus"

http://www.news4jax.com/top-stories/jea-board-to-discuss-possible-bonus-for-ceo_

Either way, call it what you will, I'm not sure if the "non-profit" deserves hand out bonuses.

Quote from: coredumped on November 15, 2016, 04:44:27 PM
JEA charged people who didn't have any power during hurricane Mathew. Definitely something not right about that.
Meanwhile, the CEO who wasn't here during the storm is getting a 15% bonus, which is just $65,000 of his salary:
http://www.news4jax.com/top-stories/jea-board-to-discuss-possible-bonus-for-ceo_

Aren't monopolies great?

Just to clarify, because when it hit, I couldn't believe it myself. The CEO was at his daughters wedding and spent a good portion of his time on the phone with the home office. Take that how you will, but IMO I certainly wouldn't fault him for that, or even mention it. 

Quote from: mellowman28 on November 15, 2016, 01:14:56 PM
I feel the same way, my wife and I just moved here from San Diego..where you would expect water and electric to be much more expensive (considering San Diego has been in a drought for forever now), yet for some reason both bills I have received from JEA have been more than twice the highest bill that I had in San Diego..and my house in San Diego was bigger! It's insane. And the fact that there isn't a petition in JAX for a competitive company to come in and force lower rates is absolutely mind blowing. Where are the politicians? They have a monopoly on electricity in my neighborhood.

The cost per kWh is much higher in San Diego than here, so without any additional details provided, the simple solution is that you are using much more electricity here than back in San Diego.

Quote from: Josh on November 16, 2016, 12:55:40 PM

Quote from: mellowman28 on November 15, 2016, 01:14:56 PM
I feel the same way, my wife and I just moved here from San Diego..where you would expect water and electric to be much more expensive (considering San Diego has been in a drought for forever now), yet for some reason both bills I have received from JEA have been more than twice the highest bill that I had in San Diego..and my house in San Diego was bigger! It's insane. And the fact that there isn't a petition in JAX for a competitive company to come in and force lower rates is absolutely mind blowing. Where are the politicians? They have a monopoly on electricity in my neighborhood.

The cost per kWh is much higher in San Diego than here, so without any additional details provided, the simple solution is that you are using much more electricity here than back in San Diego.

Which is likely, considering the need for AC here versus in the city known for having the mildest, most consistent weather in the country. The other factor is the fact that JEA is a publicly owned utility, so an outside competitor isn't really an option.