Metro Jacksonville

Why do so many people choose to live in St Johns, Clay or Nassau and then drive to work in Jacksonville?

I'm thinking it has as much to do with our school system as anything.  Most families I know who left Duval did so for their children's education.

Plays a huuuuggeee role.  You're right.  The sunbelt is attracting families (as opposed to single, young, professionals who go to NYC, Chi, LA, etc).  Families usually can't afford private school, and they don't want to send their children to Lee, White, Raines, Ribault, Wolfson, Sandalwood, Jackson, etc.  Why would they?  The schools in St. Johns and Clay are leagues better, housing is still cheap compared to where they are coming from (and super cheap in Clay), and traffic/distance to work is not bad enough to justify coming closer in.

All true - but we don't talk much about how to improve public schools in Duval on this forum.  At least not that I've seen in the short time that I have been a member.

There was a push a while back by the mayor to make the school board appointed instead of elected.  I heard that the reason was because appointed school boards have been more effective at turning around school systems than elected school boards.

What say the smart folks on MJ about that?

IIRC it would require amending the Fla. Constitution, which requires elected school boards.  Of course, with Dark Lord Voldemort in the Governor's mansion, and his expressed desire to dismantle public schools in Florida, that may not be a huge hurdle.

I have been posting this for years on this site.  It is the thing that moved the young families out. 

Not to inject "too much" politics into a commonly pronounced theory about why public schools do not usually hold a candle to their private school counterparts is that public schools actually used to be damn good until the federal government started meddling in secondary education in the 70s (hint, I am not talking about integration just so there's no confusion).

Also, I just want to point out that some of the worst school systems in the country have large teachers' unions and high average salaries.  In Chicago the average teacher makes close to $75K with a quarter of public school faculty making over 6 figures.  Most private schools pay their teachers far less, but produce far superior results.  You'll find that pay of professors at Bolles and Episcopal are between $30-45K.  These professors did not necessarily go to a school to "learn how to teach," but they are qualified to teach what they do and many if not most have masters or Ph.D's in their respective fields.

I think the problem with public schools is that they are part of a bureaucracy that enforces one size fits all rules/curriculum.  The local community and the parent should have more say over what is taught and what goes on in their local neighborhood schools, but then again do kids even attend their "neighborhood school" anymore?  It's all messed up.

Most private schools have an admissions barrier to entry in tests and aptitude, primary school grades, etc, but I really think a voucher "type" system should be offered.  Kids get an allotment of tax money already, why not give the parents more of a choice?  If the inner city neighborhood schools are not going to perform and someone's kid is qualified to attend a Catholic school, why would it be bad to let the mother decide to get that kid in the Catholic school with basically the same amount of taxpayer money?

In New Jersey, it costs an average of just under $15K to send a kid to a public school.  Most private schools don't even cost that amount.  Catholic schools normally cost half or less that amount with far better results.

St Johns County operates in the same state and federal system that Duval does - why are their schools perceived to be better?  Are they really better?

We have several excellent schools in Duval (most are magnet) and I often wonder if there was more commitment from the community to support the neighborhood schools that the situation would be different.  By commitment, I don't mean people comlaining about it and wishing that our school board would do something - I mean a commitment by sending their kids to the neighborhood schools and getting involved at the most basic level.

And that question applies to our city leaders, too.  They will all tell you how important it is for Jacksonville to have a first class public education system - but how many of them send their kids to public schools?  That should tell us everything we need to know about their commitment level.  Do you think the CEO of GM would even consider driving a Toyota?

St. Johns & Clay don't have a true inner city.  That's the major difference.  The schools in suburban Jax are just as good as they are in St. Johns and Clay.  I believe the health of schools (exluding magnets, which I'm not a fan of) are directly tied to the health of the neighborhoods surrounding them.  Thus, we're not going to solve anything by isolating school issues from the social and economic environment surrounding them and the families of children that attend them. Cleaning up the schools that give Duval a bad name will also have to involve a serious effort in investing and cleaning up the neighborhoods they were built to serve.  For example, if you don't make a real effort to revitalize and rebuild a neighborhood like Brentwood you can't expect its high school (Jackson) to turn things around.  As for the suburban counties, give them 20-30 years.  When today's popular burbs age you'll see they will begin to have the same issues that older areas of Duval have to deal with presently.

Quote from: thelakelander on January 02, 2011, 07:13:48 AM
The schools in suburban Jax are just as good as they are in St. Johns and Clay.

Here is a comparison of Mandarin HS and Bartram Trail HS test scores from 2009-2010 (and they are only separated by Julington Creek):

        Reading  Math  Writing   Science   % Free & Reduced Lunch   & Minority
MHS    58         82       88        58                      18                        36
BTHS   70         91       95        58                       3                          6

Now, look at the public high school, Robert E. Lee, serving the Avondale/Ortega neighborhoods (arguably one of the wealthiest in Jax):

Lee     31          63      86        37                       55                        76

I wonder if we will ever see any real change in this until we have someone in City Hall who actually sends his/her kids to one of these schools.

Yes - inner city is an issue with our public school system, but so also is the withdrawal of so many families from the public schools to the private schools.

One huge advantage the private schools have over the public is that they can choose who attends.  As simms3 pointed out, they have minimum admission requirements.  Also, once a child is a student at a private school, they must maintain certain minimum academic and behavioral standards.  Simply put, private schools do not have to put up with the kinds of behavior that are common in public schools.
If the voucher system does not include applying the same tests required of public schools, the whole "let parents choose" slogan is just that - a slogan.  Without a means of comparing the public and private schools, there is no basis for a parent to choose.
And, as dougskiles notes, another problem is the exodus of students from public to private schools.  As this is encouraged to continue, there will be less and less support for public schools - the schools for "those" kids, not good enough to get into private schools.

I would be interested to see the results of a survey of private school families indicating:

• Why are you willing to pay so much more money for private school?
• What would have to change about the public school for you to send your children there?

Then I would be interested to know how the school board reacts to those results.  Are they willing to accept that the current model is not working and change?

Also, it occured to me that our city has clearly invested a significant amount of time and money (granted in partnership with the team owners) to get people in the seats at Jaguars home games.  Guess what - it worked!  No blackouts.  What if they put the same energy into getting families to commit to the public school system (partnered with the school board)?  Which of these would have a greater impact on the quality of life in Jacksonville?

Private schools aside, the neighborhoods Mandarin pulls from are older than those of Julington Creek.  Some are now stagnant and in decline. How does Orange Park High's scores compare with MHS and JCHS.  Also, how do elementary/middle schools in these areas compare?

Private schools are operated much more similarly to how public schools used to be operated until they were turned into bureaucracies and unionized in the 70s.  A private school is shaped directly by a board of trustees, who are basically like a board of directors.  The board of trustees is determined largely by the parents of the children of the school, and it changes frequently depending on the needs.  Parents have direct involvement.  Their money goes to the school, not to a bureaucracy.

Let's also start with some basics.

1) Teaching.  Private schools do not have to select teachers that went through government training or "teaching school".  Instead they can review a swath of candidates with experience in the field and make their own determinations.

2) Admissions.  Unless your daddy donated a couple mil or more, the school has every right not to accept you.  There aren't quotas to fill.  The school has a reputation to guard, and if they think you will somehow bring down the reputation or not be able to succeed, then you will not be admitted.

3) Discipline.  The private schools can't beat you, but they can discipline you basically how they see fit, and believe me, you can be disciplined for wearing skimpy clothing if you're a girl, or having a cell phone out of your locker (or even using it during school hours), or chewing gum, etc.  You can even be kicked out!  I know people who were kicked out based on what the deans heard happened on the weekend at their house (drugs, egregious acts, etc)  Gasp.

4) Attendance.  I had some friends that went to Stanton and Paxon, two great magnet schools.  My friends who weren't IB there routinely skipped school to go drink at someone's farm in western Jacksonville.  Try that at a private school and you'll most likely be kicked out.

5) Curriculum.  Parents of children of the school have a large say, not a distant government.  Episcopal started offering more and more inner city scholarships to kids, which was great, but then they started a "diversity" curriculum.  Parents were all for more diversity, but did not want to waste resources talking about it (like public schools do for stuff like that).  The diversity coordinator was let go.  At St. Mark's (grammar school), too much time was being spent discussing endangered animals in 3rd grade and the teacher's political views were being injected, so the parents injected themselves and cut an end to it.  Try that in public school.

Also, there are a few different routes to take at a private school, but a school like Episcopal or Bolles is very rigorous (can only be compared generally to the small IB programs at Stanton or Paxon).  The classes are harder and there is no such thing as "no child left behind".  You will be left behind.  There are language requirements.  There are fine arts requirements.  Yes, there are physical education and sports requirements.  There are theology requirements.  And aside from that, you can basically make the experience what you want of it.  Parents get their money's worth.

6) Governance.  Like I said, a private school runs very much like a public company.  There is a Board  of Trustees responsible to the parents.  They have a role in selection of a headmaster, vice headmaster, deans, and faculty.  They also have a say in decisions like tuition increases, construction projects, capital campaigns, etc.

7) Results.  100% of Bolles and Episcopal grads go on to 4 year colleges.  Many many many go on to Ivies and top notch colleges, and many many many earn some degree of scholarships.  Just go to Episcopal's website and you can see that students there win just about every local competition, have the most Merit Finalists, etc etc.  Parents like results when they shell out of pocket and results are what they get.

It seems to me that Charter Schools are becoming very popular around the country, and they are getting back to the roots.  I believe Obama has largely signed on with Charter Schools (why he wouldn't vouchers is weird).  Public schools used to be similar to private schools today.  My mother went to a public high in Chicago, and she remembers teachers cracking rulers over her knuckles.  As soon as the government took it over (look at that system today, ha, with teachers making a fortune for working 6 hour days), things got bad.  Her little brother had to attend Lake Forest Academy.

Also, suburban Atlanta schools in Cobb County are great (supposedly...I have seen a couple of "good" students' writing, bleh).  Cobb County is much more urban and dense and "inner city" than St. Johns or Clay, yet it maintains a swath of model schools.  It is possible.  St. Johns County will probably never see bad schools.  Clay may.  Different demographics.

Private schools are nice, as it was said, because they can pick and choose who attends...if they don't maintain what their standards are, then you're out. Public schools don't have that option. Also a biggie, is that private schools are mandated by either the FCAT or NCLB...these are major and I mean major factors that have caused all kind of problems within the public school system, and the way it's headed, it's not going to get any better. It stifles the districts from funding on down...it's a freaking mess, and you can thank the government for that.

Vouchers...most people don't realize that you only get what would otherwise go for funding that student in a public school, and the parents have to pay for the rest. That leaves out many of the middle on down to the lower economic family units...which also leads into another major issue, of parents that aren't involved and/or lack the drive to want not only better for themselves or their children. This leads to the public school system with a student population that 1) cannot afford to attend a private school 2) lacks drive to want an education 3) parents who don't give a damn.

Yet the demands are increasingly more stringent and the lack of support for those in the classroom is unbelievable...the government and people screaming how public schools are failing...well no kidding, when you take the funding away, when you demand more and offer less support to reach those goals...and having to deal with out of control students and parents that expect miracles when they, themelves do not encourage, do not support and do not care.

The fact that most schools/principals won't enforce the student code of conduct, because referrals, etc count against the school when it comes to the states grading practices. So you end up with students raising hell, causing major behavioral issues and yet those teaching are still expected to teach. Until society puts their foot down and stops this from happening, the situation will continue to worsen.

So yes, those private schools are nice, for those that can afford it, and as I said, the public schools get the rest.

1) Most private schools are actually affordable.  Tuition is usually in the range of $3-8K.

2) The cost to send a kid to public school is on average far more than to send a kid to private school.  The average to send a kid to a public school grades 6-12 in NJ is just under $15K.  A voucher of half of that would get a kid in many many many decent private schools.  I don't know what the costs to send a kid to public school are in FL, but I know that teachers at Bolles and Episcopal have far superior backgrounds than teachers at public schools and make significantly less ($30-45K).

3) Government in education is the problem.  I think we agree on that.  The system is so flawed, why would any taxpayer want to throw MORE money at it.  Until the system is fixed, taxpayers will be moving to less bureaucratic school districts in the suburbs, homeschooling, or sending their kids to private schools.

4) Also agree: many parents don't seem to give a damn.  In voucher programs that have worked before (DC comes to mind), there were still parents who didn't even give the system a try.  Gee mom, thanks for caring about me.  These parents aren't even taxpayers.  They have no skin in the game.

I don't know why you think that teachers at those schools have far superior backgrounds, that's simply not fact. Many of those in the public schools have at least 1 masters (many have 2) and there's many that have and/or are working on their doctorates. As for the pay, Florida is one (if not the lowest) when it comes to teacher salaries. You need to take a look at the pay grades http://www.duvalschools.org/static/wearedcps/employeeinfo/teacher_salary_schedule.asp (http://www.duvalschools.org/static/wearedcps/employeeinfo/teacher_salary_schedule.asp)

As for many families being able to afford and who are sending their children to private schools...again, though the cost may seem reasonable to you, it's basically for the upper middle class on up...not for the vast majority. Not to overlook, the families with more than one child. Without having the figures in front of me, I don't recall how much it is exactly that the schools are given per student....still, it's more than the majority of private schools that I know of.

^^^^Just checked it out.  Looks like a similar if not slightly higher pay scale than teachers at Episcopal.   If that's low for public schools, then wow!  (BTW, pay for my college professors is transparent, and I had 4 professors making over $300K a year excluding benefits and travel).  Wow.

I highly doubt that the average public school teacher is going to have the same credentials as the average teacher at a top private school.  Maybe your average private school, sure.  (and why are teacher problems in public schools always in the news?)

Also, I just looked at tuition for several area private schools.  I found ranges from from $3,060 to $9,720 for almost every school, and less for additional siblings.  These are reasonable prices, despite what you may think.  It probably costs somewhere between $7-10K to send a kid to a Duval public school.  Of course most families can't afford a nationally known private college prep school or a boarding school, but most private schools are actually rather cheap.

If families were given in the form of a voucher what it costs to send their children to a public school to be able to either choose to try to send them to a private school where they can have more of a say over what their children are taught or continue sending them to public schools, what's the problem with that?  If our goal is to provide a better education for our children, and a better education is usually had in a private school or a charter school, then shouldn't we look at that?  The Netherlands and other European countries actually have voucher programs, and as a result their public schools are so much better than ours because they have to compete.

Quote from: thelakelander on January 02, 2011, 10:11:13 AM
How does Orange Park High's scores compare with MHS and JCHS.  Also, how do elementary/middle schools in these areas compare?

         Reading   Math   Writing    Science   % Free & Reduced Lunch    % Minority
MHS       58         82       88          58                     18                          36
MTHS     70         91       95          58                       3                            6
OPHS     47         76        83         39                      33                          47
Lee        31         63       86          37                      55                          76

Orange Park scored better than Lee but not as good as Mandarin.  Clear correlation between scores and % Free & Reduced/% Minority.

Teachers aren't paid nearly enough for all they do and the hours they have to put in each day, each week, each month to even come close to keeping on top of what's expected of them.

When you look at the majority of families that have school aged children, they could not afford to send their child to private school. Clearly we will have to agree to disagree on this, as you are firm with believing that most could, if they wanted...where I do not...so no compromising

We also disagree on the qualifications and pay scales...again, there's no compromising

Perhaps you think that parents dictate what their child is taught instead of what the school system must teach to be in compliance with not only the FCAT, the NCLB/federal government, but also the Florida sunshine standards. Private schools are not held to the same standards. Without knowing the ins and outs of the school systems in the Netherlands and/or other European countries, I cannot give my opinion as to whether or not they are better or not, it would depend on all that's required and all that governs them.

Our public school systems, IMO, would be much, much better if they got rid of the standardized testing, if they canned NCLB and actually refused to allow children to do as they please and hold them and parents accountable.

Quote from: dougskilesClear correlation between scores and % Free & Reduced/% Minority.

BINGO, this is exactly what I'm talking about, and for the majority of our schools, that minority, is the majority. And before someone jumps on me for that....it's not all a racial issue...it's a culture and an economic one

Quote from: thelakelander on January 02, 2011, 10:11:13 AM
Also, how do elementary/middle schools in these areas compare?

                   Reading   Math   Writing    Science   % Free & Reduced Lunch    % Minority
Mandarin Oaks   88         90       95          63                      33                          35
Julington Creek  96         97        92         86                       7                            5
West Riverside   67         69       78          52                      67                          62
Ortega             66         76        74         43                      64                          67

About the same for elementary schools, although it is interesting to see that Mandarin Oaks scored higher than the Mandarin HS with a similar % free & reduced lunch and % minority.  West Riverside is Avondale's school and Ortega Elementary is Ortega's school.  Pretty obvious that the people who live in those areas have no faith in the public schools and plenty of money for private school.

Let's suppose that teacher salaries were double what they are now.  How would that effect the work force?  Would there be more competition for the job? Would there be less tolerance for a job poorly done?

Now the question for the teachers would be this:  If you were offered a significant increase in pay, would you be willing to give up some of the security that you have?  In others words, you would get demoted or fired for poor performance.

For the record, I am in favor of significantly increasing teacher pay because I think it would have a dramatic effect.  I don't see it as some like to say "throwing money at the problem".  We are willing to pay pediatricians big bucks to provide health care for our children - why not teachers?

If everyone was given a $7,500 voucher to choose between public and private, everyone could afford private (and even more private schools would be set up to cater to the increased demand).  That's a fact.  I doubt it costs the taxpayers much less to send a kid to Duval public schools, if not more.  Many Catholic schools charge only $3,500 or so (for Catholic students and not *much* more for non-Catholic), though they have the Church's backing.

Springfielder, do you know what teachers at private schools make?  I was shown a fin. report detailing that once.  It was low.  Lower at Episcopal (or roughly equivalent) than the pay scale you provided.  I can only guess that it would be even lower at other private schools.  Anyhow, some of the worst school districts in the country have some of the highest paid teachers.  Teachers work from about 8-2:00 in Chicago for 3/4 of the year, produce little to no results, and are paid an average of $75K because they are backed by the CTU?  (Chicago Teachers' Union)  If I lived in Chicago and paid taxes to support that non-sense, I might pack up and move over it.  It's ridiculous.  People get paid what the market thinks they're worth.  Most of my high school teachers had masters from top colleges, and some were even former college professors or private sector guys.  They taught us because they had joy in doing so.  They weren't trying to become rich (which seems to be the goal of the teachers' unions).

Vouchers may not be the end all be all answer, but they are a start.  Charter schools are another big start (and seem to be popular everywhere but Florida, where they are needed most).

And people in Ortega can send their children to Stockton Elementary in Ortega Forest.  It's supposed to be good for an elementary school.  Nobody at Ortega Elementary is actually from the neighborhood.  They are all bussed in.  A lot of neighborhood moms have recently begun to help out at the school, and all I hear are horror reports about how dismal it is (and I have heard some shocking things about some of the teachers there).  I am sure that it's ok that local moms are helping out only now because the school board is so desperate, but the reality is that school systems are big bureaucracies that are inefficient at best.  Politics gets in the way of helping the kids learn.  Who cares that Under God is in the Pledge of Allegiance?  Look at all the controversies and crazy crap that happens all over the country in public schools, and you begin to realize they are mirror images of the problems that plague our government.  Parents can't get involved with most public schools like they can private schools (where it is encouraged parents get involved).  That's frustrating to the parents left in the inner cores that still care about their children's education (seems like most parents nowadays have either given up or don't care).

Quote from: dougskilesLet's suppose that teacher salaries were double what they are now.  How would that effect the work force?  Would there be more competition for the job? Would there be less tolerance for a job poorly done?

Now the question for the teachers would be this:  If you were offered a significant increase in pay, would you be willing to give up some of the security that you have?  In others words, you would get demoted or fired for poor performance.

For the record, I am in favor of significantly increasing teacher pay because I think it would have a dramatic effect.  I don't see it as some like to say "throwing money at the problem".  We are willing to pay pediatricians big bucks to provide health care for our children - why not teachers?

The pay grades have nothing to do with the evaluations given by the school principal, nor does or could it impact any or no tolerance for poorly performing. All of that is covered under the evaluation (results) given by the principal. Even that isn't done well, as there's advance notice as to when they'd be in the room to observe you...and most, IMO, are nothing but a show. I have always felt that the principal should just come in at any time to observe. That would give them a better idea as to how things are going. Not only that, but of course, the overall performance of the classroom, the data and other things.

Higher pay rates would, help with recruiting...no doubt about that.

To answer the question about if given a significant increase, would teachers be willing to give up securities (ie: being demoted, or fired) This could not happen, no matter the pay grade or increase. There is no demotion for a teacher, you're either a teacher or you're not...and that is via their certification through the state. Unless you're a new hire (of whom can be terminated within the first 90 days without cause, or simply not invited back the next school year) terminating a teacher is based upon many factors, such as the reason, whether or not it involves criminal action, and other factors. There's also the union/contract and the progressive discipline plan. So pay rates have nothing at all to do with firing anyone.

Maybe charter schools and vouchers will lead to the answer.  Nobody knows for sure until we try something different.  My original intent of this topic was that I don't think we are doing enough - and - we're not talking about it enough.  To accept that many of the children in our city are getting a substandard eduction is sad.  It is so easy for people with the means to pay for private school to simply ignore the problems that are occuring elsewhere.  But we all pay the price in ways that perhaps we aren't all aware.  Continued sprawl, difficulty in attracting new business, and crime are just a few of the issues that can be attributed to a poorly performing public school system.

It's not that it's so much that it's poorly performing schools, it's so easy to blame the 'schools' when that means, teachers. There's a lot of problems, but you seem to be overlooking the reality of this...the children and the parents...once again, there's no accountability for them...just teachers.

There's excellent teachers, most of them are hard working, dedicated people. And yes, there's some lousy ones who could care less about the kids or teaching them...and I would like to see them gone. You can suggest that vouchers will cure the ills of the public school system, but like I said, you're skirting the foundation of what's wrong with the system.

Quote from: Springfielder on January 02, 2011, 04:14:40 PM
There's a lot of problems, but you seem to be overlooking the reality of this...the children and the parents...once again, there's no accountability for them...just teachers.

I agree 100%.  But what can the rest of us do about it?  Do we just accept that reality?  How do we make those parents and kids accountable?  Particularly when, as simms3 put it "they have no skin in the game".  The current system is causing problems that we all have to deal with, so I feel that we are all accountable.

I know very little about the education system aside from my involvement at my children's schools.  I would like to hear more from those of you who are employed in the system (educators, administrators - hopefully even school board members).

Similar to the great articles that we get from Lakelander, Ocklawaha, et al, about successful transportation systems, are there any who could provide articles about successful public education systems?  And more specifically those with inner city neighborhoods.

First of all, I commend you for being involved at your childs school. And just so you know..you are discussing this with someone who works there. I didn't want to say that earlier, because I didn't want to appear like I was being closed minded on the subject.

As I said, the main problem that I see...is how nobody wants to come out and say it...that the schools are out of control, because nobody wants to stand up to these arrogant parents of kids that are chronic behavioral issues. The district has a code of conduct and for the most part, it's ignored because they don't want to suspend these violators which would force the parent to do something and/or they don't want the kids home alone...as if that should be the schools problem.

You can't successfully teach because of the chronic behavior issues that constantly disrupt the class, and the teacher is blamed, not the out of control child or the parent.

What do we, as society, do? Stand up and force the districts to stop babying these kids, stop allowing them to disrupt the classrooms, force the districts to stand by their code of conduct...force the districts to hold the children and parents accountable.

Duval doesn't just have an issue with parents putting kids in private schools...there is also the magnet shools

How about we check the stats at Stanton & Paxon against Creekside & Bartram Trail

Easy enough...

                    Reading   Math   Writing   Science     % Free & Reduced Lunch    % Minority
Paxson             75         96        93          85                      19                           57
Stanton            84         96        99          93                      13                           47
Bartram             70        91        95          58                        3                             6
Creekside           72        93        87          60                        4                             6

BTW all of this is available at:

http://schoolgrades.fldoe.org/ (http://schoolgrades.fldoe.org/)

It could be said that magnet schools take kids away from the neighborhood schools - and it can also be said that magnet schools take even more kids away from the private schools/St Johns County schools.  But in terms of the original post question, I don't believe that magnet schools are encouraging sprawl.  Quite the opposite as most magnet schools are located in the urban core.

I think its the other way around.  I believe the current school situation is a result of sprawl, not the cause.  On one end, there may be areas within the school system we can improve but ultimately the surrounding environment (cultural, ecomonic, etc.) of many of our struggling schools must improve if we really want to solve this problem on a large scale.

Quote from: simms3 on January 02, 2011, 12:22:40 PM
1) Most private schools are actually affordable.  Tuition is usually in the range of $3-8K.

2) The cost to send a kid to public school is on average far more than to send a kid to private school.  The average to send a kid to a public school grades 6-12 in NJ is just under $15K.  A voucher of half of that would get a kid in many many many decent private schools.  I don't know what the costs to send a kid to public school are in FL, but I know that teachers at Bolles and Episcopal have far superior backgrounds than teachers at public schools and make significantly less ($30-45K).

3) Government in education is the problem.  I think we agree on that.  The system is so flawed, why would any taxpayer want to throw MORE money at it.  Until the system is fixed, taxpayers will be moving to less bureaucratic school districts in the suburbs, homeschooling, or sending their kids to private schools.

4) Also agree: many parents don't seem to give a damn.  In voucher programs that have worked before (DC comes to mind), there were still parents who didn't even give the system a try.  Gee mom, thanks for caring about me.  These parents aren't even taxpayers.  They have no skin in the game.

I think you should re-examine your facts.  The comparisons of Paxon/Stanton/Mandarin/Bartram Trail/Creekside are all high school comparisons.  Private school tuition for Episcopal & Bolles (middle & high school) works out to be around $20k/year, including tuition ($18.5k+/-), books, various activity fees, lunches, etc.  More if you donate to the school's scholarship/endowment fund.  Some private high schools and middle schools are less expensive, but you'd be hard pressed to find much for less than $10-14k.  Private elementary schools such as Bolles, Riverside Presbyterian Day School, Jacksonville Country Day, San Jose or Beaches Episcopal are in the $7.5-10k range. 

The irony is that "until the system is fixed" there's an unwillingness to invest.  One could argue that until an appropriate investment in education is made, the system CAN'T be fixed.  As I'm sure you know, Florida is 49th or 50th in its investment in public education - and Jacksonville/Duval County is near the bottom of all of the state's school districts. 

Quote from: thelakelander on January 02, 2011, 06:19:32 PM
I think its the other way around.  I believe the current school situation is a result of sprawl, not the cause.  On one end, there may be areas within the school system we can improve but ultimately the surrounding environment (cultural, ecomonic, etc.) of many of our struggling schools must improve if we really want to solve this problem on a large scale.

Maybe - but I have heard of more people saying that they are moving to St Johns County because they wanted better schools than any other reason.  Maybe initially the schools deteriorated because of sprawl, but in our current situation people are moving out because the schools are perceived to be better.

You can't build a new school without the roads, neighborhoods and subdivisions being created first.  The school situation is one of many that are a result of suburban sprawl.  Others (people who don't have school aged kids) include, affordable newer housing, better retail, parks, accessibility, entertainment and jobs. 

The problem has grown to the point that on the surface it seems that all of these items are the drivers but they really are really the result.  To ultimately solve the problem, we're going to have to discover a way to slow down the cause.  Since most American communities are facing the same issues I wonder how places growing inner cities like Charlotte, Orlando, Miami and Houston are dealing with their public school situation?  If we look hard enough, there should be both good and bad examples (I guess we're a bad example) to follow/avoid.

I've been reading through this thread but haven't had a chance to respond, so sorry for the following disconnected thoughts...

I'd like to know where we, too, can find the statistics Simms is referencing regarding teacher pay, student enrollment demographics, etc.  As I have read through, so much read like blanket generalities with no data. 

It is a misnomer of the worst sort to believe that teachers (Chicago or otherwise) work only from bell to bell.  Most teachers have one planning period per day and are required, in order to meet the demands of the curriculum, to take the work home.  Routinely (I have many very good friends who teach for CPS, one who teaches for a private school in DC and a couple here in Duval) these folks are up until late hours grading papers, creating exams, etc.  So, no, teachers don't work 30 hours a week for these alleged salaries.  And for the record, a sizable number of teachers in Chicago take part time jobs in the summer to offset the poor pay.  Now suburban Chicago teachers on the other hand...Naperville has one of the highest rates of pay and I'm surprised more retirement aged teachers aren't being offed to get those coveted positions.  But, when you look at how the system is financed with property taxes, Naperville can afford to pay those salaries.  But there too, teachers make up extra pay by being involved in activities like sports, etc.

It is not the job of the school system to play Mother, Father, Counselor, Judge, Jury and Executioner.  Teachers should have to teach and that is all.  Disruption should be dealt with accordingly and with the involvement of the parents.  Funding should not be based on school performance in the disciplinary sense.  The only monies that should flux from school to school is the amount for free/reduced lunches.  And that is something that should be considered a third rail issue (IMO). I like it old school: Uniforms for all, sit down, shut up and do as your told.  No back talk, no sass, no texting, no note passing.  Crack the book and nose to the grindstone. You are there to learn and everything else takes a back seat. 

As for magnet schools...Well, I was the product of both James Weldon Johnson and Stanton and my sister went to JWJ and then Douglas Anderson.  I couldn't imagine either of us having had a better education for free or otherwise.  I competed against the private school students a couple times a year and was fortunate my education didn't include an overly-developed sense of entitlement.  To be sure, our day was longer than the Sandalwood kids, but when we waited there in the morning and girls were fighting and cops were patrolling, or we took Driver's Ed over the summer and it was like a maximum security prison with slits for windows, my sister and I sang the praises of our commutes.  (I will say, completely unrelated to education, I believe it was this acclimation to commuting via bus that makes me more tolerant of public transit.) Within every public (non-magnet) school is a core group of students who are driven (with or without parental support) and go on to high-achieving adult lives.  They take advantage of the higher level classes.  Why not just flat out not offer "regular" courses and stop playing to the lowest common denominator?  Where are the technical schools where students who weren't academically minded went to learn how to fix a car or weld or some such?  Why is it reasonable or correct to assume that every person is going to be capable of achieving a seemingly arbitrary metric identified by Iowa in the 80s?  It's OK if my mechanic can't expound on the growth of Communism in the early 20th century as long as he can fix my radiator.

Off soap box...

Lake, I agree with you on the cause.  The density fell in the inner-city schools and as growth has continued further south to St. Johns, the suburban schools have fallen.  But now, with the gentrification of Springfield and further influx of young money to Riverside and San Marco, I hope these people are involving themselves in their community schools as well.

Quote from: thelakelander on January 02, 2011, 08:21:22 PM
Since most American communities are facing the same issues I wonder how places growing inner cities like Charlotte, Orlando, Miami and Houston are dealing with their public school situation?  If we look hard enough, there should be both good and bad examples (I guess we're a bad example) to follow/avoid.

I hear that some (and maybe all) of the mayoral candidates have policy groups to study these issues.  Perhaps Metro Jacksonville can provide them with some meaningful examples.  Is that something that you would do yourself Lakelander, or do you recruit a team to do some research?  If so, I'm happy to help.

Steve_Lovett,

I think you are being disingenuous to suggest that most private schools have comparable tuitions to Bolles and Episcopal and their feeder schools.  Even for non-Catholics at BK or BS tuition is about $9K.  I looked at a few schools I had heard of that I thought would have reasonable tuitions.  Trinity Christian, University Christian, Mandarin Christian, and I’m sure there are plenty of others.  I haven’t been in high school for a while, but I know that there are even some Jewish schools, a developing Islamic school, and secular schools.  You can do the tuition research yourself, but you won’t find any tuitions at these schools above $10K, and in many cases above $8K.  St. Johns Country Day is significantly less than Bolles or Episcopal and arguably has the best college matriculation in town.  I think if you look at some numbers below, you will find that even a voucher of $7,500 given to parents to choose where to put their kids could save us taxpayer dollars (given what it costs to educate kids in public schools) and produce better results.

Regarding my comments about Chicago and New Jersey schools, I went straight from memory, but I found my sources.  First let me clarify what they said since I have my sources in front of me.

Thornton Township District is a South Side Chicago school district.  The average teacher there was earning $83,000 a year with almost 26% earning over $100,000 a year in 2005.  Chicago Public Schools had a day that ended at 1:30 until 2003, when the CTU negotiated to add 15 minutes of teaching time in exchange for a reduction of 7 days from the calendar.  This was a 5 hour net gain.  Chicago Public Schools spends an average of $10,550 per pupil (can’t gather if that is grades 9-12 or k-12).

For working 6 hours a day, 9 months of the year, a 22 year old fresh out of college teacher in Chicago will earn $43,702 + $3,059 in pension contributions.  If he spends his summers at the beach and works 4 more school years, he will be making $57,333 + $3,992 in pension contributions in 2012.  If he chooses to work during the summer, he will be on a “fast track” salary program and will be making 6 figures in no time.

What’s the student performance like?  It is estimated that only 6% of entering freshman will earn a college degree by age 25.

Sources

1) Teachers’ compensation for 2005 in Thornton Township District (Illinois School District 205) was compiled by Illinois Loop (www.IllinoisLoop.org/salary)

2) Chicago Public Schools website, http://www.cps.k12.il.us/AtAGlance.html

3) Jo Napolitano, “Election Dispute Leads to Impasse for Teachers’ Union,”  New York Times, July 2, 2004

4) Based on 38.6-week schedules for 2008-2009 and 2012-2013 school years.  CTU Teacher Salary Schedules are available at http://www.ctunet.com/contract_information/documents/new_07-12_teacher_salaries.pdf

5) Lori Olszewski, “City graduation rate disputed,” Chicago Tribune, February 3, 2005

I couldn’t find my original source for the New Jersey statistics, but I found a new one.  Here is a recap:

The average spending per pupil in the U.S. in 2006 was $9,138.  The average spending per pupil in New Jersey in 2006 was $14,630.  According to the article, Germany spends an average of $7,700 per pupil, and we all know they outscore us in reading, writing, and math.  The apparent big difference is that New Jersey has 600 individual school districts, and every superintendent makes around $200,000 and has a secretarial staff.

Source
http://examiner.gmnews.com/news/2010-04-15/Letters/NJ_schools_spend_too_much_per_pupil.html

Just to clarify, Thornton Township is NOT in CPS domain, so their salary is irrelevant to a CPS argument.  A 22-yr old fresh out of college doesn't get a full time job in CPS unless they know someone.  They are subbing if they are lucky.  And again, a teaching position is a salaried position, so if you have to work until 10pm to get the job done, you aren't getting time and a half in that next check.  I don't believe you have lived in Chicago, and as someone who has, after state and federal taxes, benefits, etc., that 44K isn't scratch when you are paying rent, outrageous gas bills and student loans and dealing with rampant student violence.  But enough about Chicago.

Realistically, I have a daughter in catholic middle school and the budget process for BK is underway, we need to have just under 10 grand per year to cover tuition, registration, uniforms, offerings, trips, etc.  The other side of private schools that seems to be missed is unlike with a public school, local or magnet, transportation is non-existent.  There are 2 private catholic high schools, BK and Bishop John Snyder (way out in WBF).  Who pays to get the kids out there?  The parents do.  So, you have to get your kid to school at 7am, which in the case of BJS you have to leave at 6am, so your kid is getting up at 5am, all of which so you can be to work by 8am, which means you now have to pay "extended day" fees.  And that doesn't include sports or activities! These totals start creeping up when you are actually involved in the system and not just standing at a distance. 

No one is arguing that the "cost" of the education is so inflated here in the states as to be laughable.  We have more than enough money going into the system, however, the way the money is being spent is the issue.  What does Germany do differently (outside of spend less) than the States?  (I, too, will be researching this further, but it's a school night and I have to turn in...)

QuoteAs I said, the main problem that I see...is how nobody wants to come out and say it...that the schools are out of control, because nobody wants to stand up to these arrogant parents of kids that are chronic behavioral issues. The district has a code of conduct and for the most part, it's ignored because they don't want to suspend these violators which would force the parent to do something and/or they don't want the kids home alone...as if that should be the schools problem.

You can't successfully teach because of the chronic behavior issues that constantly disrupt the class, and the teacher is blamed, not the out of control child or the parent.

What do we, as society, do? Stand up and force the districts to stop babying these kids, stop allowing them to disrupt the classrooms, force the districts to stand by their code of conduct...force the districts to hold the children and parents accountable.

Springfielder is 100% correct and until we as a society decide that this is intolerable the issue will not be resolved.  Teacher pay?  Someone already established that public school teachers make more than private.  The difference is enforcement in a code of conduct.  As a parent who had a child in both systems the difference is stark and it is real.  My child could see that most of the teachers time and effort was wastefully expended on 10% of the students.  Our current system seems to be sacrificing the education of the majority to cater to the indifference and misbehavior of the few.

Even though I send my kids to public schools, we have been relatively sheltered from the discipline issues that you speak of because we are fortunate to live in an area with an excellent neighborhood school (Hendricks Avenue Elementary) and also have a child at a magnet middle school (Landon).

I have, however, had the opportunity to work with kids through other organizations that have just blown my mind with how much effort it takes to keep their attention.  It is a serious dilemma in our society.  If we had 3 adults assigned to work with 15-20 kids, 1 of the adults (often times me) was assigned to specifically manage 1 or 2 of the most troubling kids.  I have no idea how the teachers at some of these schools pull it off when it is 1 versus 20.

The challenge I am issuing to all of us on this forum is not to solve the problem - but to find real examples of school districts in the US with similar problems who are making progress.  To tell us how they are doing it in Sweden does us no good.  Our society is much more diverse and has a completely different set of issues.

In the same way that MJ has made significant progress enlightening JTA and City Council about BRT vs Light Rail, let's make some progress with the Duval County School Board.

On the transportation side of things, MJ was lucky enough to have several participants and board members who's professional careers were directly tied to the topic at hand. To tackle the public schools issue, additional input is needed from discussion board members (this appears to now be taking place in this thread) who have direct connections and understanding of how the Duval County School Board actually operates.  

QuoteI have, however, had the opportunity to work with kids through other organizations that have just blown my mind with how much effort it takes to keep their attention.  It is a serious dilemma in our society.  If we had 3 adults assigned to work with 15-20 kids, 1 of the adults (often times me) was assigned to specifically manage 1 or 2 of the most troubling kids.  I have no idea how the teachers at some of these schools pull it off when it is 1 versus 20.

Nail hits head.  The teachers are not getting it done... and who can blame them.  Those children need to be removed from their classroom so the remaining 17 children can get an education.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on January 03, 2011, 09:09:20 AM
Nail hits head.  The teachers are not getting it done... and who can blame them.  Those children need to be removed from their classroom so the remaining 17 children can get an education.

In some of these schools it will be more like removing 10 of the 20 students.  The larger societal issue is why are these kids having so much trouble concentrating?

I look forward to seeing examples of success.

Remove the distractors.  Separate boys and girls, strict uniforms, cellphones banned from school, strict code of conduct (enforced), Strict standards of progress (enforced)

Sadly... none of these things will happen in public schools and I forcast more of the same results.  Private schools implement many if not all of the above and provide a better education.

Quote from: dougskiles on January 03, 2011, 09:14:15 AM

Quote from: BridgeTroll on January 03, 2011, 09:09:20 AM
Nail hits head.  The teachers are not getting it done... and who can blame them.  Those children need to be removed from their classroom so the remaining 17 children can get an education.

In some of these schools it will be more like removing 10 of the 20 students.  The larger societal issue is why are these kids having so much trouble concentrating?

Isn't this simultaneously one of the better and more cynical arguments for a voucher system? If in a 25 student classroom, 20 are holding up the progress, shouldn't the 5 that want to learn be given a chance to do so?

Quote from: BridgeTroll on January 03, 2011, 09:20:02 AM
Remove the distractors.  Separate boys and girls, strict uniforms, cellphones banned from school, strict code of conduct (enforced), Strict standards of progress (enforced)

Sadly... none of these things will happen in public schools and I forcast more of the same results.  Private schools implement many if not all of the above and provide a better education.

I agree with you 100%, but if there's one thing I can never figure out is how "enforcement" should look. At private schools, expulsion is the ultimate enforcement. What is it for public schools? Out of school suspensions just give the kids basically what they want, in school suspensions are often a waste of time and resources (along with not giving the kids a corrective lesson)..maybe forced service (say, 12 hour shifts with the school janitorial staff)? What stick is big enough for the kids that can be used for enforcement?

Quote from: BridgeTroll on January 03, 2011, 09:20:02 AM
Remove the distractors.  Separate boys and girls, strict uniforms, cellphones banned from school, strict code of conduct (enforced), Strict standards of progress (enforced)

Sadly... none of these things will happen in public schools and I forcast more of the same results.  Private schools implement many if not all of the above and provide a better education.

Stephen makes many good points, not all of which I agree (remove libraries?...not enough kids read words on pages and a Kindle can't substitute for that).  I think some of which he speaks is being implemented already.  However, when it comes down to it, I think strict enforcement like Bridgetroll points out can make the quickest, largest impact.  At first I thought separating boys and girls was a little extreme, but I remember my dad talking about it when he was in high school.  He went to an all male high school, and in his senior year they integrated girls.  He always joked everyone went from having an A-B average to a C-D average.  A lot of schools my friends went to are still either all male or all female to this day, and these are the best high schools in the country.  It's not like guys and girls never get to see each other.  None of that will ever be enforced, though.  Public schools are subject to politics, political correctness, etc.

And everyone else seems right, as well, being that there are always kids in these schools who want to succeed, but there sure are a lot of "distracted" kids, if we're going to be that nice.  I have a friend who went to Lee and ended up at Emory, but I don't think he was friends with many kids at his high school, LoL.  The Lee or the Wolfson cafeteria was always a place our mothers either took us to or threatened to take us to, to show us that if we screwed up at the schools they sent us, we would end there.

The evidence is very clear that separating boys and girls makes a big difference.  They BOTH learn better...especially the girls.  Uniforms puts EVERYONE in the same social class... we all know appearances are everything to teens.  It is understood that public schools must provide an education... even to those who apparently do not want it or are incapable of proper behavior.  Parents(of those kids) will protest, certain educators will howl... but those kids need to be segregated from those who know how to behave.  If 10% is causing the other 90% to suffer they must be removed.  Call it what you want... detention hall, study hall... I don't care. 

Get em away from the motivated kids.  This is essentially what is happening with the private school movement.  MY kid wants to learn... MY kid behaves(and if not let me know as I will fix it), I am an involved parent... and I do not want that interrupted by misbehaved children and teachers who must be babysitters.

Mixed results with uniforms( I do support them ). Separating the boys and girls some years and some classes is the best thing IMO. Take some pressure off and helps with focus no doubt.

I think increasing teacher salaries and giving them more autonomy to discipline and direct their classes would greatly improve schools.  I went to Episcopal as well, and there was often swift justice for anyone who misbehaved on a serious level.  Saturday school was given out freely, which consisted of cleaning the campus for 3 hours, 2 hours of study hall, and 1 hour of physical activity (plyometrics with the dean, for starters).  

The only thing with strong punishment, it doesn't work if the parents aren't then following up with their own discipline.  If the kid doesn't then lose television, internet, cell phone, or freedom, it just builds resentment for the teacher without changing the kid's behavior.  I'd be fine with a day of labor if that was all I had to do.  Instead, it would be a day's hard labor and then no internet for 2 weeks.  That's how you change behavior, by having the parents uphold and reinforce the punishment administered by the school.  Instead, we have parents who don't care, or oppose the school and fight with the teacher because they can't accept that their kid is a problem.

It may not be a quick fix, but increasing teacher salary will improve the application pool.  I have always thought that teachers and police officers need a raise.  Enforcing the law and teaching our youth are two of the most important things in our society, and deserve the best possible people for the job.  They are poorly compensated (IMO) therefore are poorly staffed.  

In response to the initial post, I can't say anything definitive, but I do know many couples who have or are planning to move to St Johns county when they have children for the sole purpose of being near better schools.  I can also give multiple examples of people who moved into the district for Hendricks Elementary for the same reason.  A good school can turn around a neighborhood, but the teachers are only a small component of what makes a good school.  I know many great teachers at what would be considered terrible schools.

Quote from: dougskiles on January 02, 2011, 10:03:34 AM

Also, it occured to me that our city has clearly invested a significant amount of time and money (granted in partnership with the team owners) to get people in the seats at Jaguars home games.  Guess what - it worked!  No blackouts.  What if they put the same energy into getting families to commit to the public school system (partnered with the school board)?  Which of these would have a greater impact on the quality of life in Jacksonville?

For what it's worth, the Weavers seem to be heavily invested in early childhood education and promoting an improved public school system in Jacksonville.  This has been a terrific discussion thread, incidentally.

Second Captain Zissou.  Also, it is ironic that the people in charge of Duval Public Schools make a large chunk of change for basically leading a failed system.  If we increase teachers' pay, can we then decrease administrators pay?  Also, if Episcopal does not pay its own teachers very well, how does it get so many good teachers?  Stephen, these teachers do not live on campus.  2 or 3 live nearby, but they commute in and live with their families like the rest of us.

Also, for the poster worried about taking kid to BJS or BK, you need to consider a carpool.  It's cheap, easy, and fun, and it takes a load off of your back.  At school by 7 a.m.?  Morning sports practices are usually around 5 or 6 and the occasional presentation requires one to be at school by maybe 7:30, but 7?  The school will be dark and empty!  I think most schools start around 8 or even as late as 8:30 unless BJS is that different.  Most students at BJS are from the westside.  I think BK was outgrown, and the Catholic schools wanted one for the westside and one for the southside.

Also, maybe it's just my observations, but from mothers volunteering at Ortega Elementary, from philanthropists throughout our city like the Weavers (even the Peytons), from Teach for America (I know someone who does that in Jax), from all the volunteers at places like The Bridge in Springfield, etc, it seems like white people who don't even send their kids to these schools care more about these schools than the inner city parents who send their kids there.  That's an irony that has to be part of the problem.

Also, I just want to reiterate a point.  If you had an unexcused absence at a school like Episcopal (and attendance was strictly kept at every class...5 minutes late was considered an absence), you were facing at minimum the Saturday school that Captain Zissou referred to.  I had friends that went to Stanton that weren't in IB, and they skipped so much class to go to someone's family farm to drink it wasn't funny.  They never got in trouble!  Don't we have truency laws??  I guess they aren't enforced!

Aftersuffering through years of substandard performance, child complaints of indifferent teachers and rowdy students... we committed to Bishop Snyder HS.  And I mean commit.  You don't just "pay tuition" and send em to school.  Appearance, clothing, code of conduct, grades, attendance, sports is the responsibility of teachers, staff, students and most importantly... parents.  Misbehavior was not tolerated... at all.  Punishment/remedial action was swift and generally unpleasant.  My child got Saturday detention (gum chewing in class) one time in four years... That one time was all that was needed.

Again... none of this will happen in our public schools.  Too many parents willing to argue with the teacher or principle or even the school board that uniforms are too confining or gum chewing is nothing to get excited about not to mention tardiness, absenteeism, smart mouth, and violence.

My children have moved past this disfunctional school system, and am glad I am not having to make those choices again.  This time I would not waste my child's time in public grade schools and middle schools.

It seems we all agree behavioral issues are a key issue with education.  Many of the successful models in recent years have targeted the behavorial issues as being the first issue to overcome and use student and parent committments to enforce standards (like KIPP) of both behavior and academic achievment.  So with that identified, what about the curriculum?  For my part, I can only speak to AP/IB and private catholic curriculae, and both produce students who are, at minimum, college-ready.  This is my concern when comparing the US to other countries.  How does the "standard" curriculum compare? Are these foreign countries teaching to standardized tests?  Why don't we only offer college-prep curriculum to all students, and well, if you get a D, then too bad?

Stephen...you went to 4 high schools....was that because of constant busing/redistricting boundary changes...if so, how did it effect your education and others who lived near you?

thanks....the reason I asked is because often redistricting has negative impacts on kids...an issue private schools don't deal with.

Quote from: stephendare on January 03, 2011, 10:15:26 AM
I think the magnet school program is an amazing leap forward, and it should be supported.

I am firm believer as well and am proud of what our public system has accomplished in these schools.  There have been a few posters expressing disapproval of the magnet schools and I know that not all of the school board members favor the system either.  I am curious to know why.

Most magnet schools are located in urban neighborhoods and the children in those neighborhoods have the top priority for acceptance (technically second behind active military but that is a very low percentage).  It is a shame that more of them do not attend.

Some of the neighborhood kids do take advantage of the opportunity and that is why the results that I posted earlier for those schools show such a high percentage of free & reduced lunch students and minorities compared to suburban schools - and have achieved better results.

The one-size-fits-all concept just doesn't work.  Not for the gifted kids and not for the kids who are less talented (or less interested) in academics.  And not for the kids in between.  Thankfully, the COJ P&DD is working to change the one-size-fits-all issue in the realm of zoning and land use.  How nice would it be to see something smiilar in the public school system? 

I'm hoping that someone will chime in soon and explain to us how the state is making that impossible by enforcing one-size-fits-all standards. I don't yet know enough about the system to explain why that is so - however - I have heard many people make reference to it.

Quote from: dougskiles on January 03, 2011, 02:43:36 PM
I am firm believer as well and am proud of what our public system has accomplished in these schools.  There have been a few posters expressing disapproval of the magnet schools and I know that not all of the school board members favor the system either.  I am curious to know why.

From arguments I've heard, there are two sides of opposition to magnets in general. One is the "my kid's future depends on a lottery" position - that due to social restraints and their local school, the only hope for a given child to a solid education is to get into a magnet, because their local school will fail them. For a non-insignificant portion of the population, it turns what should be a right to anyone that wants it (a solid education) into a game of chance.

The other side of the argument is that by drawing away all of the best/most talented students from their local schools, the "brain drain" serves to bring the whole school down - smart kids aren't there to participate in peer tutoring or other classroom interaction to elevate their fellow students, or in the case of DA, draw away from local success in music/drama/arts.

I'm not sure how much water these positions hold, but these are two of the most common magnet objections.

My issue with magnet schools revolves around urban planning, neighborhood stablization and personal experience.  My experience come from a different school system in Central Florida.  Things may be different in Duval but the magnet schools where I grew up (Polk County) were originally neighborhood schools.  The kids in the minority neighorhood I grew up in were then bused all around town to other schools to so all schools would be properly desegregated.  I remember my little brother not getting into the neighborhood magnet and having to take an hour long bus ride to another city to help balance out its numbers in 6th grade.

Needless to say, my old neighborhood was economically depressed then and it still is (I've been out of high school for 15 years now).  I believe a strong "neighborhood" school is needed in every walkable neighborhood if the goal for that community to be vibrant.  A family with the economic means is not going to invest in the redevelopment of a community if their children are put through the same situation as the kids in my childhood neighborhood.  

From my knowledge of magnet schools, it seems like they hurt inner city neighborhood revitalization.  To me, it appears that the top talent is drained from other schools and neighborhoods, so you end up with a few great schools and ton of crummy ones.

I generally feel that the Duval magnet schools are a good thing....that said, they have created a drain on the non-magnet schools by removing some of the most gifted students.

Perhaps we should consider more magnet programs (like Internatiocal studies or science) within regular schools.

It just seems like the excellent ones were created by draining the top talent out of the others.  Sort of like the economic demographics of our most popular suburbs come from draining the resources out of other areas. How can we make schools excellent by first draining their top talent?  I don't have all the answers but I do know how things are being played out currently does not work.  So whatever it is, something has to change.

Quote from: thelakelander on January 03, 2011, 03:28:05 PM
I don't have all the answers but I do know how things are being played out currently does not work.  So whatever it is, something has to change.

I'm with you 100% on that.  I don't have all the answers either - truthfully, I don't have any answers.  But I am encouraged that we are talking about it.

I believe the magnet system here is different than what you grew up with (which was similar to where I grew up - south Florida).  The neighborhood kids have priority to attend the magnet school.  There is no lottery amongst these kids.  If there were more of the neighborhood kids applying then the kids from surrounding areas would be the ones in the lottery.  In fact, that is what has happened at some of the magnets.

It can be said that the magnets are taking away from the other neighborhood schools, however, the reality is that they are taking away from the private schools or the surrounding county's schools.

Magnet schools are not the end-all solution.  But I don't believe they are the problem either.

Are there not enough serious students to have an IB/magnet AP program at every public high?  These high schools are huge (1,000+ students for 4 grades, right?).  Surely with all of the differences in the students, there should more of a customized schooling approach.  I, once again, can only speak from experience.  At Episcopal, there were three levels of classes for almost every class, but there were no "tracks" to take.  One had to qualify for *individual* AP classes by teacher recommendations and grades.  Case in point, I took mostly AP classes my junior and senior year and honors classes before (had to qualify for honors first and could only make it from honors to AP, not regular to AP), but I skipped AP Biology, AP Lit and AP Comp, AP Economics, and a few others.  I was able to choose which AP classes to try to get into, and for English classes I tried to make it easy on myself by skipping out on honors/AP altogether and requesting easy teachers (no guarantee: easiest English teacher junior year, a theology professor/priest my senior year LoL).

The colleges I applied to (and made it into all 7, including an ivy), did not care that I did not take AP english classes.  Because I was going for engineering, they were only concerned with AP Physics, AP Calc (preferably AB/BC), AP Chem, and a strong language track (preferably up to AP), and they required at least a 4, if not a 5, on the exams.  Which brings me to another point.

Some of the smartest kids I know in Jacksonville are in the [small] IB program at Stanton.  There is no denying it.  Many of these kids go on to great colleges and it's a great program if one can get in (the lottery comes up).  That being said, Newsweek high school rankings are the biggest load of crap that ever came to be.  They basically judge schools based on how many people take the AP/IB exams without judging the results.  They don't even look at schools that have qualifying exams for entrance, favor school boards that are willing to foot the bill to have all students take the AP exams (I guess our school board since we have so many schools that do so well), and they don't factor in high school graduation rates.  Stanton is probably deserving of being on that list.  However, when Gainesville's Eastside High makes #6 but receives a C from the state while our own A schools Fletcher and Bartram Trail don't even make the list, you know it's flawed.

Quote from: simms3 on January 03, 2011, 04:24:48 PM
Are there not enough serious students to have an IB/magnet AP program at every public high?  These high schools are huge (1,000+ students for 4 grades, right?).  Surely with all of the differences in the students, there should more of a customized schooling approach.  I, once again, can only speak from experience.  At Episcopal, there were three levels of classes for almost every class, but there were no "tracks" to take.  One had to qualify for *individual* AP classes by teacher recommendations and grades.  Case in point, I took mostly AP classes my junior and senior year and honors classes before (had to qualify for honors first and could only make it from honors to AP, not regular to AP), but I skipped AP Biology, AP Lit and AP Comp, AP Economics, and a few others.  I was able to choose which AP classes to try to get into, and for English classes I tried to make it easy on myself by skipping out on honors/AP altogether and requesting easy teachers (no guarantee: easiest English teacher junior year, a theology professor/priest my senior year LoL).

The colleges I applied to (and made it into all 7, including an ivy), did not care that I did not take AP english classes.  Because I was going for engineering, they were only concerned with AP Physics, AP Calc (preferably AB/BC), AP Chem, and a strong language track (preferably up to AP), and they required at least a 4, if not a 5, on the exams.  Which brings me to another point.

Some of the smartest kids I know in Jacksonville are in the [small] IB program at Stanton.  There is no denying it.  Many of these kids go on to great colleges and it's a great program if one can get in (the lottery comes up).  That being said, Newsweek high school rankings are the biggest load of crap that ever came to be.  They basically judge schools based on how many people take the AP/IB exams without judging the results.  They don't even look at schools that have qualifying exams for entrance, favor school boards that are willing to foot the bill to have all students take the AP exams (I guess our school board since we have so many schools that do so well), and they don't factor in high school graduation rates.  Stanton is probably deserving of being on that list.  However, when Gainesville's Eastside High makes #6 but receives a C from the state while our own A schools Fletcher and Bartram Trail don't even make the list, you know it's flawed.

Simms, my son is a senior in the IB program at Stanton...the IB program is an application process for entry...not the lotto, that's for just the AP classes. Its the same at Paxon because when he applied he could choose between the two schools, or apply to both.

Quote from: dougskiles on January 03, 2011, 03:34:51 PM
The neighborhood kids have priority to attend the magnet school.  There is no lottery amongst these kids.

I did some research - I was wrong about what I stated earlier.  The lottery applies to everyone, but the neighborhood kids have priority.  I don't believe there are many cases where a neighborhood kid wants to attend and can't because of the lottery, but I suppose it could happen.

I recently sat through the presentations from Stanton & Paxson about their IB programs and AmyLynne is correct.  Those are by application and not by lottery.

There was such a large population of the students that attended JWJ and Stanton (in the 90s at least...) from the neighborhood.  They were, however, almost exclusively in the honors classes and some in AP but few (if any as I recall) in IB.  That being said, those students who attended Stanton over say, Jackson, were so much better served as even honors classes were challenging.  No, they didn't all get great grades, and we had a couple of high school mothers, but, even the latent learning experienced at Stanton put you ahead of the "normal" schools.  Disciplinary issues were not of the same class or variety as traditional public schools and you weren't worried about violence or drugs.  Back then, at least, you did have the threat of being kicked out of the school and back into the normal system.

For my part, I think we are missing the mark with such overwhelming emphasis placed on going to a traditional 4-yr college.  Some of the higher achieving countries, like South Korea, have significant infrastructure for 2-yr and "technical" degrees.

QuoteIf anyone thinks that school uniforms actually serve to mitigate class or status differences, then they should ask anyone who went to Bishop Kinney. Girls make up for it by shortening the skirts and wearing really expensive jewelry, and boys make up for it by putting a lot of emphasis on watches and cars. In fact Ive learned that one of the surest signs that someone went to private or military school is an adult fixation on expensive watches.

I can back Stephen up from my personal experience attending Bishop Kenny.  My parents struggled to make my tuition payments, and there is a clear class distinction.  Specifically cars and watches.  And girls had the jewelry(and the shorter skirts/knee high socks, which I NEVER complained about)  I wanted to go to Lee b/c that's where all my friends were going, but I am very glad my parents enrolled me(against my wishes) at BK.

I went to private school in my middle school years b/c I would have been bussed to Bethune and then James Weldon Johnson(before it was an honors school, or whatever the term used today) instead of being able to attend my local middle school (Lakeshore).  My parents did not want me being bussed around town, and made great sacrifices to allow me to WALK to private school instead.  The system is indeed differenet now, as Doug mentioned.

QuoteMost of the kids who worked at Boomtown were Stanton students (I had a hiring preference), and in previous businesses I was likely to hire Bishop Kinney kids.

And I could name about 20 businesses that had a hiring preferance for BK kids when I went to high school.  I quit working at my parents restaurant when I was a senior in high school, and very quickly got raises and promotions at other jobs over kids who did the early-work release programs that the public high schools offered.  I got the extra perks b/c I worked hard, not b/c of where I went to school btw... but getting hired was a cinch b/c of where I went to school.

QuoteAre there not enough serious students to have an IB/magnet AP program at every public high?

My uncle teaches IB, as does my best friend's wife... and no, there just aren't enough that would qualify for IB to have them in mass quantities throughout the city.

QuoteI think BK was outgrown, and the Catholic schools wanted one for the westside and one for the southside.

100% correct.

QuoteAlso, I just want to reiterate a point.  If you had an unexcused absence at a school like Episcopal (and attendance was strictly kept at every class...5 minutes late was considered an absence), you were facing at minimum the Saturday school that Captain Zissou referred to.  I had friends that went to Stanton that weren't in IB, and they skipped so much class to go to someone's family farm to drink it wasn't funny.  They never got in trouble!  Don't we have truency laws??  I guess they aren't enforced!

Saturday schools were not a deterent to skipping school or skipping X mod to go to Shoneys or Burger King for a very long breakfast or quick hook up session ;)
If you were creative enough, you could get away with quite a bit :)

A rather timely piece (based on our discussion, at least) from Education Secretary Arne Duncan in yesterday's WaPost.
(emphasis added is my own)

Quote
School reform's next test
By Arne Duncan
Monday, January 3, 2011

With a new Congress set to begin, key members on both sides of the aisle are poised to rewrite the Elementary and Secondary Education Act (ESEA), currently known as No Child Left Behind (NCLB). In fact, the work has been underway for much of the past year, and few areas are more suited for bipartisan action than education reform.

On many issues, Democrats and Republicans agree, starting with the fact that no one likes how NCLB labels schools as failures, even when they are making broad gains. Parents, teachers, and lawmakers want a system that measures not just an arbitrary level of proficiency, but student growth and school progress in ways that better reflect the impact of a school and its teachers on student learning.

Most people dislike NCLB's one-size-fits-all mandates, which apply even if a community has better local solutions than federally dictated tutoring or school-transfer options. Providing more flexibility to schools, districts and states - while also holding them accountable - is the goal of many people in both parties.

Both Republicans and Democrats embrace the transparency of NCLB and the requirement to disaggregate data to show achievement gaps by race, income, English proficiency and disability, but they are concerned that NCLB is driving some educators to teach to the test instead of providing a well-rounded education.

That is why many people across the political spectrum support the work of 44 states to replace multiple choice "bubble" tests with a new test that helps inform and improve instruction by accurately measuring what children know across the full range of college and career-ready standards, and measures other skills, such as critical-thinking abilities.
NCLB's accountability provisions also prompted many states to lower standards, but governors and legislators from both parties in all but a handful of states have rectified the problem by voluntarily adopting higher college and career-ready standards set by state education officials.

Finally, almost no one believes the teacher quality provisions of NCLB are helping elevate the teaching profession, or ensuring that the most challenged students get their fair share of the best teachers. More and more, teachers, parents, and union and business leaders want a real definition of teacher effectiveness based on multiple measures, including student growth, principal observation and peer review.

These issues are at the heart of the Obama administration's blueprint for reauthorizing ESEA: more flexibility and fairness in our accountability system, a bigger investment in teachers and principals, and a sharper focus on schools and students most at risk.

This common-sense agenda also reflects the quiet bipartisan revolution underway at the state and local level. With the incentive of the Race to the Top program, governors, states and districts across America are implementing comprehensive plans to reform education systems and boost student achievement.

School districts and their local partners in inner cities and rural communities are overcoming poverty and family breakdown to create high-performing schools, including charters and traditional public schools. They are taking bold steps to turn around low-performing schools by investing in teachers, rebuilding school staff, lengthening the school day and changing curricula.

In partnership with local teacher unions, districts are finding new ways to evaluate and compensate their teachers and staff their schools. Some districts have reshaped labor agreements around student success - and teachers have strongly supported these groundbreaking agreements. On Capitol Hill, numerous internal meetings with staff as well as external meetings with educational stakeholders have occurred, several hearings have also been held, and some legislative language has been drafted and shared at the staff level.

The urgency for reform has never been greater. Today, American students trail many other nations in reading, math and science, and a quarter of them do not graduate high school on time. Many college students do not finish, despite the clear national need for more college-educated workers who can successfully compete in the global economy.

President Obama in 2009 set a national goal that America will once again lead the world in college completion by 2020. With our economic and national security at risk, this is a goal Republicans, Democrats and all Americans can unite behind.

Since coming to Washington, I've been told that partisan politics inevitably trumps bipartisan governing. But if I have learned anything as education secretary, it is that conventional wisdom serves to prop up the status quo - and is often wrong.

In the past two years, I have spoken with hundreds of Republican and Democratic mayors, governors and members of Congress. While we don't agree on everything, our core goals are shared - and we all want to fix NCLB to better support reform at the state and local level. So, let's do something together for our children that will build America's future, strengthen our economy and reflect well on us all.

Quotelol.  no kidding Field.  Or for that matter over to the dollhouse for appetizers.

You're talking to someone who got in trouble on my 18th birthday about a sign that referanced Dollhouse on campus.   :D

Back to something relevant, I have a family full of educators.  They all RAVE, RAVE, RAVE about home schooling.  I think this is going to become a lot more popular here in Florida.

^^^Agreed about the homeschooling.  I am also a big proponent of vouchers, but I don't know if I'm comfortable allowing voucher money to go toward homeschooling.  It seems like it would be an avenue for corruption unless the kid was made to pass some sort of annual standardized tests.

Also, I'm kind of surprised but not really surprised you got away with that at Kenny.  EHS and Bolles are basically gated now, so you have to show a pass to leave campus if you are a senior, and you can't leave campus if you're not a senior.  There are also far less kids to manage, so it makes it easier for faculty to manage the kids.  Still does not prevent kids from going to the cars to do anything or seniors from doing anything once successfully and "legally" off campus.

Off topic but for nostalgia purposes, I always enjoyed seeing the wrecked car on Kenny's campus around prom time.  Kenny kids were definitely some of the biggest/best partiers in town.  My favorite NYE parties were usually at one of my good friends' houses, and she went to Kenny.  It seems to me, having watched from an older distance my sister's age group at 4 of the schools (EHS, Bolles, Kenny, and Stanton), that my age group and the 3 or so years ahead were kinda crazy.

QuoteIt seems like it would be an avenue for corruption unless the kid was made to pass some sort of annual standardized tests.

I have a niece and nephew both of high school age that are home schooled in Georgia.  They have to pass the same graduation test deal everyone else does, lest they just get the attendance certificate. 

But their classes are all online and taught by college faculty.  It's essentially the exact same thing they would be doing once in college.  Yet, they both learn better this way(while preparing them for college style education) and have WAY more electives to choose from.  My cousin is a professor in Georgia and says that a very large percentage of incoming freshman are home schooled and they generally perform better once in college.

I skipped watching Stars Wars/Star Trek with Sister Edith, and no lightning bolts from the Almighty have yet to strike me down.   ;)

Quote from: dougskiles on January 03, 2011, 03:34:51 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on January 03, 2011, 03:28:05 PM
I don't have all the answers but I do know how things are being played out currently does not work.  So whatever it is, something has to change.

I'm with you 100% on that.  I don't have all the answers either - truthfully, I don't have any answers.  But I am encouraged that we are talking about it.

I believe the magnet system here is different than what you grew up with (which was similar to where I grew up - south Florida).  The neighborhood kids have priority to attend the magnet school.  There is no lottery amongst these kids.  If there were more of the neighborhood kids applying then the kids from surrounding areas would be the ones in the lottery.  In fact, that is what has happened at some of the magnets.

It can be said that the magnets are taking away from the other neighborhood schools, however, the reality is that they are taking away from the private schools or the surrounding county's schools.

Magnet schools are not the end-all solution.  But I don't believe they are the problem either.

You are correct, neighborhood kids and military get priority. After having a child attend two of these, I can affirm that these are not real Magnet schools. They are basically a neighborhood school with one perk. The real urban core schools are not draining anyone, there are only a couple of good ones and they are filled by the neighborhood kids first. There is also a lot of racism in the two schools my daughter has attended which is unacceptable. Next year we are most likely going back to home schooling as both of these schools have been a joke the work assigned is Pre K work even in 1st grade! (Pattern recognition and rhyming three letter spelling words in first grade???)When I tell my friends in Carolina or California what my daughter's home work consists of they are shocked. Their kids (like mine) did this type of work in Pre-K. In speaking with my daughters teacher, I have been told that is the level the class is at, and they must be "caught up", no wonder these are D and F schools! I mean teaching down for the whole class, really???!!!!

Yep - it's real easy to make all schools equal.  Make them all terrible...

I have a little different perspective on this being a teacher in a high-achieving inner city public school (A grade, 94% Free Reduced Lunch). I've also spent a brief bit of time at one of the worst elementary schools, so I've seen both sides of the coin. First, let me say that I don't think the school system is a primary driver of sprawl. If we put one of these high achieving suburban schools in the middle of the worst neighborhoods of Jax do you think people would relocate just to go to that school? However, I also believe that a school could be a catalyst for improving a neighborhood because it's a place that can build community spirit and pride and hope. It's place that changes communities from the inside out.

So here are a few suggestions for how to improve our public schools:
-People talk so much about discipline and behavior, but the talk always seems to be harsh. Sometimes children need stern consequences, but just as much or even more they need encouragement and support and love. Most teachers I've seen that struggle with behavior management spend all their energy yelling at students or correcting them, but they spend little time recognizing what the children are doing right. You draw more flies with honey than vinegar. There is more to behavior management than that, but that is what I see missing most often. The biggest difference between the schools I see that struggle and the ones that thrive despite the challenges is that the overachievers have a positive school environment that starts with the school leadership and moves all the way down through the ranks.

-Teacher certification and training needs to be changed significantly. Under the current model, there is a high turnover of new teachers because they are often dropped in the deep end. There are teachers in classrooms that really don't know much about pedagogy and child development because they have degrees in other fields and only had to do a few classes and take a test to get certified (sometimes this is good because of they have real world experience but can also be very bad). I really like the models I've heard proposed in NY and Ohio and a few other places. The certification and training is modeled after how doctors become licensed. Basically, after college once a person gets their initial certification they must serve what amounts to a residency period where they work under the direct supervision of a lead teacher (in a co-teach situation) for a few years before they can become fully certified. This gives necessary support and guidance to new teachers (from both education backgrounds and non-ed backgrounds). It gives teachers an opportunity for promotion which tends to motivate. It is cost effective because the associate teachers (new teachers) are paid less. Also, it gives administrators another option besides firing teachers for disciplining underperforming teachers (demotion).

-Also, I really think that the bureaucracy hurts our schools. I'm frequently told to do things that are not pedagogically sound by people in some office somewhere. I believe in oversight, and I think it's great that my principal spends a lot of time in classrooms (not just during formal observations I might add). I don't mind when a parent comes into class. But every move is nitpicked and we are asked to do volumes of redundant forms that serve no purpose. We are asked to do things that really are not in the best interest of the children we serve. In the end the bureaucracy of public education alienates teachers. It alienates families. It hurts students. Plus, it costs a fortune.

I would add a couple other things to this list, but I'm regretably missing my Buckeyes in action. That's all for now.