How much is Duval County's school system driving sprawl?

[thelakelander]

It just seems like the excellent ones were created by draining the top talent out of the others.  Sort of like the economic demographics of our most popular suburbs come from draining the resources out of other areas. How can we make schools excellent by first draining their top talent?  I don't have all the answers but I do know how things are being played out currently does not work.  So whatever it is, something has to change.

[dougskiles]

I don't have all the answers but I do know how things are being played out currently does not work.  So whatever it is, something has to change.

I'm with you 100% on that.  I don't have all the answers either - truthfully, I don't have any answers.  But I am encouraged that we are talking about it.

I believe the magnet system here is different than what you grew up with (which was similar to where I grew up - south Florida).  The neighborhood kids have priority to attend the magnet school.  There is no lottery amongst these kids.  If there were more of the neighborhood kids applying then the kids from surrounding areas would be the ones in the lottery.  In fact, that is what has happened at some of the magnets.

It can be said that the magnets are taking away from the other neighborhood schools, however, the reality is that they are taking away from the private schools or the surrounding county's schools.

Magnet schools are not the end-all solution.  But I don't believe they are the problem either.

[simms3]

Are there not enough serious students to have an IB/magnet AP program at every public high?  These high schools are huge (1,000+ students for 4 grades, right?).  Surely with all of the differences in the students, there should more of a customized schooling approach.  I, once again, can only speak from experience.  At Episcopal, there were three levels of classes for almost every class, but there were no "tracks" to take.  One had to qualify for *individual* AP classes by teacher recommendations and grades.  Case in point, I took mostly AP classes my junior and senior year and honors classes before (had to qualify for honors first and could only make it from honors to AP, not regular to AP), but I skipped AP Biology, AP Lit and AP Comp, AP Economics, and a few others.  I was able to choose which AP classes to try to get into, and for English classes I tried to make it easy on myself by skipping out on honors/AP altogether and requesting easy teachers (no guarantee: easiest English teacher junior year, a theology professor/priest my senior year LoL).

The colleges I applied to (and made it into all 7, including an ivy), did not care that I did not take AP english classes.  Because I was going for engineering, they were only concerned with AP Physics, AP Calc (preferably AB/BC), AP Chem, and a strong language track (preferably up to AP), and they required at least a 4, if not a 5, on the exams.  Which brings me to another point.

Some of the smartest kids I know in Jacksonville are in the [small] IB program at Stanton.  There is no denying it.  Many of these kids go on to great colleges and it's a great program if one can get in (the lottery comes up).  That being said, Newsweek high school rankings are the biggest load of crap that ever came to be.  They basically judge schools based on how many people take the AP/IB exams without judging the results.  They don't even look at schools that have qualifying exams for entrance, favor school boards that are willing to foot the bill to have all students take the AP exams (I guess our school board since we have so many schools that do so well), and they don't factor in high school graduation rates.  Stanton is probably deserving of being on that list.  However, when Gainesville's Eastside High makes #6 but receives a C from the state while our own A schools Fletcher and Bartram Trail don't even make the list, you know it's flawed.

[AmyLynne]

Are there not enough serious students to have an IB/magnet AP program at every public high?  These high schools are huge (1,000+ students for 4 grades, right?).  Surely with all of the differences in the students, there should more of a customized schooling approach.  I, once again, can only speak from experience.  At Episcopal, there were three levels of classes for almost every class, but there were no "tracks" to take.  One had to qualify for *individual* AP classes by teacher recommendations and grades.  Case in point, I took mostly AP classes my junior and senior year and honors classes before (had to qualify for honors first and could only make it from honors to AP, not regular to AP), but I skipped AP Biology, AP Lit and AP Comp, AP Economics, and a few others.  I was able to choose which AP classes to try to get into, and for English classes I tried to make it easy on myself by skipping out on honors/AP altogether and requesting easy teachers (no guarantee: easiest English teacher junior year, a theology professor/priest my senior year LoL).

The colleges I applied to (and made it into all 7, including an ivy), did not care that I did not take AP english classes.  Because I was going for engineering, they were only concerned with AP Physics, AP Calc (preferably AB/BC), AP Chem, and a strong language track (preferably up to AP), and they required at least a 4, if not a 5, on the exams.  Which brings me to another point.

Some of the smartest kids I know in Jacksonville are in the [small] IB program at Stanton.  There is no denying it.  Many of these kids go on to great colleges and it's a great program if one can get in (the lottery comes up).  That being said, Newsweek high school rankings are the biggest load of crap that ever came to be.  They basically judge schools based on how many people take the AP/IB exams without judging the results.  They don't even look at schools that have qualifying exams for entrance, favor school boards that are willing to foot the bill to have all students take the AP exams (I guess our school board since we have so many schools that do so well), and they don't factor in high school graduation rates.  Stanton is probably deserving of being on that list.  However, when Gainesville's Eastside High makes #6 but receives a C from the state while our own A schools Fletcher and Bartram Trail don't even make the list, you know it's flawed.

Simms, my son is a senior in the IB program at Stanton...the IB program is an application process for entry...not the lotto, that's for just the AP classes. Its the same at Paxon because when he applied he could choose between the two schools, or apply to both.

[dougskiles]

The neighborhood kids have priority to attend the magnet school.  There is no lottery amongst these kids.

I did some research - I was wrong about what I stated earlier.  The lottery applies to everyone, but the neighborhood kids have priority.  I don't believe there are many cases where a neighborhood kid wants to attend and can't because of the lottery, but I suppose it could happen.

I recently sat through the presentations from Stanton & Paxson about their IB programs and AmyLynne is correct.  Those are by application and not by lottery.

[Singejoufflue]

There was such a large population of the students that attended JWJ and Stanton (in the 90s at least...) from the neighborhood.  They were, however, almost exclusively in the honors classes and some in AP but few (if any as I recall) in IB.  That being said, those students who attended Stanton over say, Jackson, were so much better served as even honors classes were challenging.  No, they didn't all get great grades, and we had a couple of high school mothers, but, even the latent learning experienced at Stanton put you ahead of the "normal" schools.  Disciplinary issues were not of the same class or variety as traditional public schools and you weren't worried about violence or drugs.  Back then, at least, you did have the threat of being kicked out of the school and back into the normal system.

For my part, I think we are missing the mark with such overwhelming emphasis placed on going to a traditional 4-yr college.  Some of the higher achieving countries, like South Korea, have significant infrastructure for 2-yr and "technical" degrees.

[fieldafm]

If anyone thinks that school uniforms actually serve to mitigate class or status differences, then they should ask anyone who went to Bishop Kinney. Girls make up for it by shortening the skirts and wearing really expensive jewelry, and boys make up for it by putting a lot of emphasis on watches and cars. In fact Ive learned that one of the surest signs that someone went to private or military school is an adult fixation on expensive watches.

I can back Stephen up from my personal experience attending Bishop Kenny.  My parents struggled to make my tuition payments, and there is a clear class distinction.  Specifically cars and watches.  And girls had the jewelry(and the shorter skirts/knee high socks, which I NEVER complained about)  I wanted to go to Lee b/c that's where all my friends were going, but I am very glad my parents enrolled me(against my wishes) at BK.

I went to private school in my middle school years b/c I would have been bussed to Bethune and then James Weldon Johnson(before it was an honors school, or whatever the term used today) instead of being able to attend my local middle school (Lakeshore).  My parents did not want me being bussed around town, and made great sacrifices to allow me to WALK to private school instead.  The system is indeed differenet now, as Doug mentioned.

Most of the kids who worked at Boomtown were Stanton students (I had a hiring preference), and in previous businesses I was likely to hire Bishop Kinney kids.

And I could name about 20 businesses that had a hiring preferance for BK kids when I went to high school.  I quit working at my parents restaurant when I was a senior in high school, and very quickly got raises and promotions at other jobs over kids who did the early-work release programs that the public high schools offered.  I got the extra perks b/c I worked hard, not b/c of where I went to school btw... but getting hired was a cinch b/c of where I went to school.

Are there not enough serious students to have an IB/magnet AP program at every public high?

My uncle teaches IB, as does my best friend's wife... and no, there just aren't enough that would qualify for IB to have them in mass quantities throughout the city.

I think BK was outgrown, and the Catholic schools wanted one for the westside and one for the southside.

100% correct.

Also, I just want to reiterate a point.  If you had an unexcused absence at a school like Episcopal (and attendance was strictly kept at every class...5 minutes late was considered an absence), you were facing at minimum the Saturday school that Captain Zissou referred to.  I had friends that went to Stanton that weren't in IB, and they skipped so much class to go to someone's family farm to drink it wasn't funny.  They never got in trouble!  Don't we have truency laws??  I guess they aren't enforced!

Saturday schools were not a deterent to skipping school or skipping X mod to go to Shoneys or Burger King for a very long breakfast or quick hook up session
If you were creative enough, you could get away with quite a bit

[Singejoufflue]

A rather timely piece (based on our discussion, at least) from Education Secretary Arne Duncan in yesterday's WaPost.
(emphasis added is my own)

School reform's next test
By Arne Duncan
Monday, January 3, 2011

With a new Congress set to begin, key members on both sides of the aisle are poised to rewrite the Elementary and Secondary Education Act (ESEA), currently known as No Child Left Behind (NCLB). In fact, the work has been underway for much of the past year, and few areas are more suited for bipartisan action than education reform.

On many issues, Democrats and Republicans agree, starting with the fact that no one likes how NCLB labels schools as failures, even when they are making broad gains. Parents, teachers, and lawmakers want a system that measures not just an arbitrary level of proficiency, but student growth and school progress in ways that better reflect the impact of a school and its teachers on student learning.

Most people dislike NCLB's one-size-fits-all mandates, which apply even if a community has better local solutions than federally dictated tutoring or school-transfer options. Providing more flexibility to schools, districts and states - while also holding them accountable - is the goal of many people in both parties.

Both Republicans and Democrats embrace the transparency of NCLB and the requirement to disaggregate data to show achievement gaps by race, income, English proficiency and disability, but they are concerned that NCLB is driving some educators to teach to the test instead of providing a well-rounded education.

That is why many people across the political spectrum support the work of 44 states to replace multiple choice "bubble" tests with a new test that helps inform and improve instruction by accurately measuring what children know across the full range of college and career-ready standards, and measures other skills, such as critical-thinking abilities.
NCLB's accountability provisions also prompted many states to lower standards, but governors and legislators from both parties in all but a handful of states have rectified the problem by voluntarily adopting higher college and career-ready standards set by state education officials.

Finally, almost no one believes the teacher quality provisions of NCLB are helping elevate the teaching profession, or ensuring that the most challenged students get their fair share of the best teachers. More and more, teachers, parents, and union and business leaders want a real definition of teacher effectiveness based on multiple measures, including student growth, principal observation and peer review.

These issues are at the heart of the Obama administration's blueprint for reauthorizing ESEA: more flexibility and fairness in our accountability system, a bigger investment in teachers and principals, and a sharper focus on schools and students most at risk.

This common-sense agenda also reflects the quiet bipartisan revolution underway at the state and local level. With the incentive of the Race to the Top program, governors, states and districts across America are implementing comprehensive plans to reform education systems and boost student achievement.

School districts and their local partners in inner cities and rural communities are overcoming poverty and family breakdown to create high-performing schools, including charters and traditional public schools. They are taking bold steps to turn around low-performing schools by investing in teachers, rebuilding school staff, lengthening the school day and changing curricula.

In partnership with local teacher unions, districts are finding new ways to evaluate and compensate their teachers and staff their schools. Some districts have reshaped labor agreements around student success - and teachers have strongly supported these groundbreaking agreements. On Capitol Hill, numerous internal meetings with staff as well as external meetings with educational stakeholders have occurred, several hearings have also been held, and some legislative language has been drafted and shared at the staff level.

The urgency for reform has never been greater. Today, American students trail many other nations in reading, math and science, and a quarter of them do not graduate high school on time. Many college students do not finish, despite the clear national need for more college-educated workers who can successfully compete in the global economy.

President Obama in 2009 set a national goal that America will once again lead the world in college completion by 2020. With our economic and national security at risk, this is a goal Republicans, Democrats and all Americans can unite behind.

Since coming to Washington, I've been told that partisan politics inevitably trumps bipartisan governing. But if I have learned anything as education secretary, it is that conventional wisdom serves to prop up the status quo - and is often wrong.

In the past two years, I have spoken with hundreds of Republican and Democratic mayors, governors and members of Congress. While we don't agree on everything, our core goals are shared - and we all want to fix NCLB to better support reform at the state and local level. So, let's do something together for our children that will build America's future, strengthen our economy and reflect well on us all.

[fieldafm]

lol.  no kidding Field.  Or for that matter over to the dollhouse for appetizers.

You're talking to someone who got in trouble on my 18th birthday about a sign that referanced Dollhouse on campus.  

Back to something relevant, I have a family full of educators.  They all RAVE, RAVE, RAVE about home schooling.  I think this is going to become a lot more popular here in Florida.

[simms3]

^^^Agreed about the homeschooling.  I am also a big proponent of vouchers, but I don't know if I'm comfortable allowing voucher money to go toward homeschooling.  It seems like it would be an avenue for corruption unless the kid was made to pass some sort of annual standardized tests.

Also, I'm kind of surprised but not really surprised you got away with that at Kenny.  EHS and Bolles are basically gated now, so you have to show a pass to leave campus if you are a senior, and you can't leave campus if you're not a senior.  There are also far less kids to manage, so it makes it easier for faculty to manage the kids.  Still does not prevent kids from going to the cars to do anything or seniors from doing anything once successfully and "legally" off campus.

Off topic but for nostalgia purposes, I always enjoyed seeing the wrecked car on Kenny's campus around prom time.  Kenny kids were definitely some of the biggest/best partiers in town.  My favorite NYE parties were usually at one of my good friends' houses, and she went to Kenny.  It seems to me, having watched from an older distance my sister's age group at 4 of the schools (EHS, Bolles, Kenny, and Stanton), that my age group and the 3 or so years ahead were kinda crazy.

[fieldafm]

It seems like it would be an avenue for corruption unless the kid was made to pass some sort of annual standardized tests.

I have a niece and nephew both of high school age that are home schooled in Georgia.  They have to pass the same graduation test deal everyone else does, lest they just get the attendance certificate. 

But their classes are all online and taught by college faculty.  It's essentially the exact same thing they would be doing once in college.  Yet, they both learn better this way(while preparing them for college style education) and have WAY more electives to choose from.  My cousin is a professor in Georgia and says that a very large percentage of incoming freshman are home schooled and they generally perform better once in college.

[fieldafm]

I skipped watching Stars Wars/Star Trek with Sister Edith, and no lightning bolts from the Almighty have yet to strike me down.   

[uptowngirl]

I don't have all the answers but I do know how things are being played out currently does not work.  So whatever it is, something has to change.

I'm with you 100% on that.  I don't have all the answers either - truthfully, I don't have any answers.  But I am encouraged that we are talking about it.

I believe the magnet system here is different than what you grew up with (which was similar to where I grew up - south Florida).  The neighborhood kids have priority to attend the magnet school.  There is no lottery amongst these kids.  If there were more of the neighborhood kids applying then the kids from surrounding areas would be the ones in the lottery.  In fact, that is what has happened at some of the magnets.

It can be said that the magnets are taking away from the other neighborhood schools, however, the reality is that they are taking away from the private schools or the surrounding county's schools.

Magnet schools are not the end-all solution.  But I don't believe they are the problem either.

You are correct, neighborhood kids and military get priority. After having a child attend two of these, I can affirm that these are not real Magnet schools. They are basically a neighborhood school with one perk. The real urban core schools are not draining anyone, there are only a couple of good ones and they are filled by the neighborhood kids first. There is also a lot of racism in the two schools my daughter has attended which is unacceptable. Next year we are most likely going back to home schooling as both of these schools have been a joke the work assigned is Pre K work even in 1st grade! (Pattern recognition and rhyming three letter spelling words in first grade???)When I tell my friends in Carolina or California what my daughter's home work consists of they are shocked. Their kids (like mine) did this type of work in Pre-K. In speaking with my daughters teacher, I have been told that is the level the class is at, and they must be "caught up", no wonder these are D and F schools! I mean teaching down for the whole class, really???!!!!

[dougskiles]

Yep - it's real easy to make all schools equal.  Make them all terrible...

[Fallen Buckeye]

I have a little different perspective on this being a teacher in a high-achieving inner city public school (A grade, 94% Free Reduced Lunch). I've also spent a brief bit of time at one of the worst elementary schools, so I've seen both sides of the coin. First, let me say that I don't think the school system is a primary driver of sprawl. If we put one of these high achieving suburban schools in the middle of the worst neighborhoods of Jax do you think people would relocate just to go to that school? However, I also believe that a school could be a catalyst for improving a neighborhood because it's a place that can build community spirit and pride and hope. It's place that changes communities from the inside out.

So here are a few suggestions for how to improve our public schools:
-People talk so much about discipline and behavior, but the talk always seems to be harsh. Sometimes children need stern consequences, but just as much or even more they need encouragement and support and love. Most teachers I've seen that struggle with behavior management spend all their energy yelling at students or correcting them, but they spend little time recognizing what the children are doing right. You draw more flies with honey than vinegar. There is more to behavior management than that, but that is what I see missing most often. The biggest difference between the schools I see that struggle and the ones that thrive despite the challenges is that the overachievers have a positive school environment that starts with the school leadership and moves all the way down through the ranks.

-Teacher certification and training needs to be changed significantly. Under the current model, there is a high turnover of new teachers because they are often dropped in the deep end. There are teachers in classrooms that really don't know much about pedagogy and child development because they have degrees in other fields and only had to do a few classes and take a test to get certified (sometimes this is good because of they have real world experience but can also be very bad). I really like the models I've heard proposed in NY and Ohio and a few other places. The certification and training is modeled after how doctors become licensed. Basically, after college once a person gets their initial certification they must serve what amounts to a residency period where they work under the direct supervision of a lead teacher (in a co-teach situation) for a few years before they can become fully certified. This gives necessary support and guidance to new teachers (from both education backgrounds and non-ed backgrounds). It gives teachers an opportunity for promotion which tends to motivate. It is cost effective because the associate teachers (new teachers) are paid less. Also, it gives administrators another option besides firing teachers for disciplining underperforming teachers (demotion).

-Also, I really think that the bureaucracy hurts our schools. I'm frequently told to do things that are not pedagogically sound by people in some office somewhere. I believe in oversight, and I think it's great that my principal spends a lot of time in classrooms (not just during formal observations I might add). I don't mind when a parent comes into class. But every move is nitpicked and we are asked to do volumes of redundant forms that serve no purpose. We are asked to do things that really are not in the best interest of the children we serve. In the end the bureaucracy of public education alienates teachers. It alienates families. It hurts students. Plus, it costs a fortune.

I would add a couple other things to this list, but I'm regretably missing my Buckeyes in action. That's all for now.