The cost of parking again mentioned as a major negative in the Northbank. I must say that I find it pretty sad that many of our corporate leaders believe that the interection of Southside and JTB is a "world class corporate setting." Can you be a world class environment without even having sidewalks?
QuoteFortegra abandoning downtown Jacksonville location
(http://jacksonville.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/story_slideshow_thumb/met_10DowntownLandma.jpg)
Fortegra Financial Corp., formerly known as Life of the South, is abandoning the downtown Jacksonville building known by the company’s former name and moving to the suburbs.
Fortegra is based at a seven-story building at the corner of Bay and Laura Streets in downtown Jacksonville that still has the Life of the South name. According to its IPO filing, Fortegra has 50,000 square feet of space in that building, which Duval County property records show has a total of 75,000 square feet of space.
Flagler said Fortegra is taking 58,000 square feet at Deerwood South.
“We chose to relocate our corporate headquarters to Flagler’s Deerwood South business park because of its convenient location, quality space offerings and world class corporate setting,†Fortegra CEO Richard Kahlbaugh said in an announcement released by Flagler.
QuoteA. Quinn Bell, general partner of the group that owns the Life of the South building, said his group tried to work with Fortegra to keep it there, including looking for city incentives. But there was no money available from the city, he said.
“Parking is a continuing problem [downtown],†Bell said. “It’s very costly.â€
full article: http://jacksonville.com/business/2010-10-18/story/second-signature-company-leaving-downtown-jacksonville
Well golly...........you mean to tell me that JEDC or DVI or even Johnny's office did not get involved? But there is no parking issue downtown according to _____________ (insert name)It would look to me like neither of the 3 are really involved with the City issue's!
Parking is a real problem but making everything cheaper is not the final answer. A great urban area will cost more than the stucco parks built out of former swamp land. The trick is to become a great urban area.
The cost of parking? The city with the assistance of the taxpayer has guaranteed Metropolitan Parking Solutions a profit.
What is the Downtown status of this taxpayer subsidy?
Is bankruptcy for our city an option?
Please can we closed the site down for atleast a week. After last night I really cant take any more bad news. :(
Great!!! Another empty building to look upon in my neighborhood! I say neighborhood because I live on Adams ST at The Carling. I mean we can tear up Laura ST for what? Another empty building so the homeless can take refuge in like the old Florida Life building located on Laura. I mean seriously what is the city doing about this?
What is the city doing,,easy,, nothing its what they do best. I guessed they learned that from Kansas City!!
Lack of parking isn't the problem with downtown Jacksonville. Look at some of the most desirable downtowns -- New York, Paris, London, for example. Is parking (or driving) cheap or easy in those places? No. Look at downtown Jacksonville, with one largely vacant multistory parking garage after another amid acres and acres of shabby surface parking lots. With all this supply, I'd be willing to bet that net cost to provide office space and parking down there is competitive with suburban spots.
The real problem is that lack of density, the lack of vitality, and the vapid streetscape of parking lots, concrete facades, vacant storefronts, etc. gives downtown a horribly uninviting feel.
There's no easy fix. Not commuter trains. Not streetcars. Not a parking lot for Toney Sleiman.
To make downtown more inviting, the sprawl model has to be stopped or reversed. New suburban development needs to be frozen. Highway spending has to be curtailed so that the ability to reach these "world class" destinations is not constantly minimized. (I'm surprised there's not more outrage at the monstrosity we've created where I-95 and I-10 merge. The number of exits for some insane reason has doubled. There are so many, some are not even labeled! A windfall for highway contractors!)
But you and I know the sprawl model will not be reversed. The developers are in charge here and will remain in charge, with no real voice for the activists, the academics, the environmentalists, or any one else who might have a different opinion about Jacksonville's livability.
The City needs to issue a moratorium on building any new office buildings outside DT Jax! I agree I dont think there is one silver bullet to fix this problem. The bleeding continues and our leaders are asleep at the wheel. sad.
I had an interview at Life of the South about 5 years ago. And there is no parking issue for them. They use the lot right next to the building. It's not free, but that was the lot they used.
I was strolling through downtown yesterday and there are so many empty building and lots. There is plenty of room for expanding downtown. We have to do something. Our DT has the poteninal to great, but nothing happends. So sad. And what is even more sad is the fact that the Mayor does not even care. Yes Johnny boy has attracted alot of businesses here during his reign as major, however he did not even attempt to sell our DT, that is pathetic. I can not wait until the elections......
I wouldn't focus too much on parking as the real reason these businesses are relocating from Downtown to the Southside. There was a study of the corporate exodus to suburban business parks from New York in the 80s (I wish I could remembers the authors' names). Even then, New York had one of the most extensive public transit systems in the country. The concluded a strong predictor of where companies were relocated was where the homes of the chief officers of the company were located. It would not surprise me in the least if the upper echelon executives of these companies live in Ponte Vedra Beach or North St. Johns County. The study also concluded a large number of these companies were mergers, sold or bankrupt within 3 years after relocation out of New York City, indicating the cost-savings of the relocation were used by executives as an excuse to cover loss of market competitiveness. it's a typical of the corporate world for executives that can't solve the larger problem (we're losing money because we can't compete anymore) to divert attention away by solving something wouldn't be a problem (cost of rent, parking, etc.) if they were competitive in the first place. In the meantime, the executives responsible for the relocation usually get out of Dodge before the sh!t hits the fan in toll with a nice severance package for saving so much money with the relocation. It's perverse.
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on October 19, 2010, 08:13:07 AM
Please can we closed the site down for atleast a week. After last night I really cant take any more bad news. :(
I agree.
I'm so fed up with our city right now. We should cut everyone who makes any decisions for the city's salary in half. That's all they've earned. Charlotte's looking more appealing by the day.
Anyone want to buy my house. I can finish nursing school in Atlanta(should have never left what was I thinking) Sorry guys I'm really in a bad mood.
Quote from: fsujax on October 19, 2010, 09:08:30 AM
The City needs to issue a moratorium on building any new office buildings outside DT Jax! I agree I dont think there is one silver bullet to fix this problem. The bleeding continues and our leaders are asleep at the wheel. sad.
I agree!!!
Point blank, there needs to be a financial or quality-of-life incentive to invest and remain in DT Jax and the surrounding neighborhoods in general (Riverside/Avondale & San Marco excluded). Right now, there really isn't one.
This city should really look into doing what Philly did a decade ago by making the area a tax abatement zone for at least 10 years or so. This should be coupled with public infrastructure investment (mass transit, integrated land use, sidewalks, parks, schools, etc.) that makes urban life worth living.
QuoteTax Breaks Drive a Philadelphia Boom
AFTER years of losing population, the downtown region, known as Center City, is booming, with developments going up and old buildings being transformed into lofts and condominiums.
The construction, fueled by tax breaks, has succeeded in halting the city's 40-year population decline. Center City, which has the nation's third largest downtown residential population, behind New York and Chicago, is experiencing its fifth straight year of increased housing starts, both new and rehabilitated units. Center City's population grew to 88,000 by the end of 2005 from 78,000 in 2000. Even more striking, the number of households rose by 24 percent, according to figures compiled by the Center City District, a business-improvement group.
The changes are drawing people like Sheryl Bar, who had never anticipated the extent to which a change in venue would mean a change in perspective. Since moving into a condo in the city, "we feel like newlyweds again," Mrs. Bar said, referring to herself and her husband, Dr. Allen Bar, with whom she raised three daughters in a house they built in Villanova, a Philadelphia suburb.
As a surgeon at Pennsylvania Hospital, Dr. Bar can walk to work from their condo. Now they go out four or five nights a week, as opposed to four times a month when they lived in the suburbs.
"Instead of commuting to work, he's home within minutes, puts his feet up for a while, and then we go have dinner and see a movie," Mrs. Bar said. "I loved bringing up my children in Villanova, but this is so rejuvenating. It really has been transformational for us."
The same could be said for Philadelphia.
That downtown Philadelphia has been experiencing a residential boom is no big surprise. Cities across the country have benefited from the real estate development frenzy of the last few years. But the changes have been accelerated here by the use of tax breaks for residential developments. Philadelphia is one of the only places to offer a citywide 10-year tax-abatement program.
The program, which started with residential conversions in 1997 but expanded to new construction in 2000, holds the tax assessment at a property's predevelopment level for 10 years. The Bars, for instance, pay just $1,200 a year in property taxes rather than the $12,000 they would pay without the abatement on their $1.1 million 2,600-square-foot, three-bedroom, three-bath condo designed by SHoP Architects of New York City.
"In the beginning, the abatement program was 100 percent responsible for getting things going," said Paul Levy, president of Center City District, which was formed in 1990 to address the decline of downtown Philadelphia. "Now there is a discussion going on about whether or not it's still needed."
Development is continuing on an ever-grander scale. The skyline is being reshaped by Waterfront Square, the largest luxury condo project in the city's history, with two towers under construction along the Delaware River, and three more in the planning phase.
Toll Brothers, a company known for building so-called McMansions in the suburbs, is redeveloping a historic United States Navy site on the Schuylkill River, a property the company has owned since 1988. The 23-acre project, called Naval Square, will have 750 homes, both condos and town houses.
According to a report released late last year by the Center City District, from the time that tax abatements were passed, more than 8,000 converted and new units will have been added to Center City, and half of all new residents benefiting from tax abatements came from outside the city.
Those who lived in the city before the newest influx see a big change in the character of the downtown area.
In May 2005, Anthony Forte and his dog, Philly, moved from his town house in a quiet, residential neighborhood to a loft condo in the heart of Center City. Known as the Jewelers' Building, one of Philadelphia's more recognizable buildings, the 106-year-old six-story structure still has much of its original Colonial Revival detailing intact even though it sat empty for years.
"The city has been a great place for me to live, but it's become much more vibrant," Mr. Forte said. "Philly always had its residential areas that are quaint, which some people love. But now downtown is extremely diverse, with lots of residential mixed with restaurants, galleries and high-end retail. My only regret is that I got a new car, because I don't drive anymore." Like 37 percent of downtown residents, Mr. Forte walks to work, the highest percentage of any major American city, according to census data compiled by the Center City District.
Mr. Levy, the Center City District's president, said, "We didn't reinvent downtown living, but in the last five years, it's been explosive." By decade's end, the city expects to add another 7,000 units.
Now, the tax-abatement programs have become somewhat controversial. While a small percentage of wealthier residents are living in high-end properties and are paying very little in taxes, a majority of the longtime residents who suffered through the bad years are likely to see their taxes go up as property values rise.
Mildred Ruffino has lived on the city's south side for 32 years, with much of her family close by. The tax-abatement program, which has spurred housing almost exclusively downtown, is now spilling over to other neighborhoods. Mrs. Ruffino's street will soon have eight town houses where a bakery once operated.
"I realize the economic situation and what the city is trying to do to bring back residents, but it's exorbitant," said Mrs. Ruffino, who works in the accounting department of an architectural firm. "An empty bakery isn't doing anybody any good. But 10 years is a long time to be tax free."
Yet there is no question that tax abatements have had an impact on the city's real estate and development industry, said Stephen P. Mullin, a senior vice president and principal of the Econsult Corporation, an economic research firm in Philadelphia.
"You couldn't make money here in Philly building something new five years ago," Mr. Mullin said. "Obviously, low interest rates helped as well. But even with that, you needed the extra bump. Now, instead of property values declining, which they were doing for years, they're increasing, and everyone benefits from that."
Even though it is difficult to tease out the precise impact of tax abatements on the city's economic fortunes, they have certainly succeeded as a marketing tool. "Ads in the real estate section prominently feature the tax abatement," said John Kromer, senior consultant with the Fels Institute of Government at the University of Pennsylvania. "Property taxes in the suburbs have been increasing. So this is one area where the city can make an apples-to-apples comparison with the suburbs and win."
David Grasso, president of Grasso Holdings, is convinced that even in the current climate, phasing out the program entirely would have a devastating impact on development, if for no other reason than people have come to expect it. He points to the Packard Building condominiums on South 15th Street. Because it was first intended as rentals the building was initially prevented from taking advantage of the tax-abatement program. "We tried to sell units in early 2005 without the tax abatement, and sales were very difficult," Mr. Grasso said. "So we appealed to the city and won, and sales picked up considerably."
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/08/realestate/08nati.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2
Jacksonville desperately needs the equivalent of Savannah College of Art and Design, combined with a bestseller (along the lines of Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil) that will draw tourists to our historic districts.
Jacksonville desperately needs Leadership!!!!!!!!!!
"Jacksonville desperately needs the equivalent of Savannah College of Art and Design..."
I thought a rehabilitated John Gorrie Middle School in Riverside would have made an excellent location for a private arts college (with plenty for buildings/properties available in Riverside for later expansion). I floated the idea with a couple of people before the school building and grounds were sold and they thought I was insane. Instead, John Gorrie is being turned into condominiums (what a creative concept).
It's alot cheaper to park in Downtown Jacksonville than most, if not all other major cities. People shouldn't be complaining about parking. If JTA were much more efficient, people could commute back and forth on the buses, and God willing in the future, trains and streetcars. Parking would not be an issue and it's cheaper to take the bus. I say again, if only JTA were much more efficient.
Quote from: urbaknight on October 19, 2010, 10:43:42 AM
It's alot cheaper to park in Downtown Jacksonville than most, if not all other major cities. People shouldn't be complaining about parking.
1) http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html
2) It's a lot cheaper in *some* spots. RPS, CPS, and the other large parking chains make it prohibitively expensive to park downtown if you're not on the street/feeding a meter. And even then, prices for meters are inconsistent. Some of the meters by the Jail you can park the entire day for a dollar, meanwhile, a block away you only get an hour for that same dollar.
As far as garages are concerned, the cheapest one is probably the Waters street garage. But all of the newer garages are pushing 2 dollars an hour. And don't get me started on the "buildings demolished and converted into surface lots." Even if you pay them, you still end up with one of their fake tickets half the time.
The parking issue with many major companies operating in downtown is that it costs them a lot more in DT than it does in the burbs. If you're trying to save money, that's a good area to cut costs without hampering productivity. In many cities, the vibrant DT environment makes it worth spending a little more. However, since there is no quality-of-life element/vibrant environment that makes it worth paying more to stay in downtown Jax, why bother? DT isn't all peaches and cream now and it gets a little worse every time another major player bails. It appears that we have not hit rock bottom yet so the question becomes what is the city going to do to stop this continuous negative stream? Whatever the solution is, it definitely won't be what we've been doing the past 10 years.
You mean 20 to 30 years.
^last 50 to 60.
Parking is a tricky thing to figure out and expensive for the developer/owner (and is not fully passed through to the tenants). It's usually one of the necessary challenges for a developer to make the rest of the project a financial success. Companies complaining that parking is expensive for *them* are full of crap. It's more expensive for me to park my car in my residential building in Atlanta than most garages in DT Jax. Jacksonville has the cheapest parking of practically any city (and the crappiest looking garages).
I agree with everything Trigger said on bottom of page 1. Poor corporate leadership making excuses and being lazy at the same time. Adecco is more understandable because a foreign company took over MPS and is probably looking to reduce any costs and streamline the business (and they have no connection or allegiance to Jax).
I also agree with Lakelander. Something *drastic* needs to be done. We cannot afford to become a Birmingham and fall off the map. We need to find out how Charlotte and Nashville are getting their companies to invest downtown and not in the suburbs. Granted the companies in Charlotte are not as cash poor as your average Jacksonville company, we need to tap FNF, Everbank, LPS (though they may be in trouble), and a few others to do something.
The other problem with Jax companies (like Rayonier or Landstar or Gate or Winn Dixie) is that they aren't the kind of companies that need a downtown office building or have too few office workers to need much downtown space. And we don't have any major law firms. I think we have local offices for 1 of the big 50 firms, and the rest are small Jax/FL law firms that require less than 30,000 SF.
Homegrown firms in the design/build category like RS&H and Haskell need a sprawled building to house different in-house "sections". At least Haskell is near downtown. It's going to be a real challenge to get companies to move offices downtown. We are too "industrial" of a city to facilitate the need for that kind of space. Our best bet I guess is just filling what we have. A bright spot may be that if a large vacany opens up in a trophy tower in Jax we may be able to pull another corporate HQ from another city looking to make a cheap move.
QuoteCompanies complaining that parking is expensive for *them* are full of crap. It's more expensive for me to park my car in my residential building in Atlanta than most garages in DT Jax. Jacksonville has the cheapest parking of practically any city (and the crappiest looking garages).
You're only parking one car. What happens when you're paying to park 500 to 1000 every day? My company is getting ready to relocate to the Northbank next month. This is a major concern and we're only looking for 15 spaces.
lakelander wrote "My company is getting ready to relocate to the Northbank next month."
So when will you be moving to Springfield? :)
Maybe before the end of the year. That's something in the works too.
I think Johnny Simpatico makes sense.
In Jax a parking problem exists when someone can't park right in front of the building and walk right inside.....be it downtown, San Marco or Riverside Avondale.
Quote from: outofhere on October 19, 2010, 12:34:37 PM
I think Johnny Simpatico makes sense.
In Jax a parking problem exists when someone can't park right in front of the building and walk right inside.....be it downtown, San Marco or Riverside Avondale.
Exactly!
^On the surface that may be true. However, its a serious problem if Company A that can operate anywhere (burbs or DT) with no problem. At that point, why would Company A pay more to reserve +100 dedicated spaces in a DT garage when they can head out to the Southside and park in a surface lots with no extra expense? The same can be said in any city but that dynamic changes when you're in a quality urban environment where people want to be. In Jax, we're just not there and appear to be going backwards. As I said in another thread, the parking issue is much more complicated than most would imagine. Plus, its only one of many things that must be addressed before DT can ultimately be successful.
Quoteits a serious problem if Company A that can operate anywhere (burbs or DT) with no problem. At that point, why would Company A pay more to reserve +100 dedicated spaces in a DT garage when they can head out to the Southside and park in a surface lots with no extra expense? The same can be said in any city but that dynamic changes when you're in a quality urban environment where people want to be. In Jax, we're just not there and appear to be going backwards.
This defines the issue very clearly...
Quote from: thelakelander on October 19, 2010, 11:47:22 AM
You're only parking one car. What happens when you're paying to park 500 to 1000 every day? My company is getting ready to relocate to the Northbank next month. This is a major concern and we're only looking for 15 spaces.
Lake, correct me if I am wrong (this is how I know most companies operate). Your company is shopping for space and needs a space that has an attached or nearby garage with 15 spaces. It relocates to that space, and you the worker contracts with the garage operator or owner of the building that has the garage to have a space, and you pay monthly. If you want a numbered space, you usually sign up for a list and when a numbered space opens up you can either accept or reject the offer (but you will pay substantially more).
Now some buildings may have more of a parking squeeze than other buildings, but overall downtown does not seem to have an "availability" problem, especially with the vacany rate. Just think that 20 years ago there were more workers downtown and less parking spaces. Now there are less workers and more parking spaces. I still stand by my thought that I seriously doubt availability of parking is the reason for any company to move from downtown. Adecco had a garage at Modis, ask any commercial broker and they will tell you it was an excuse. Life of the South did not have its own garage, but it did have that lot and it had two garages within a block (and those two garages are never full). It's just a big fat excuse for these larger firms to move from downtown. It goes back to lack of leadership more than parking.
It's not an availability issue. In the case of office use, it's a cost issue. Other than pride in the urban community, what incentive is there for a typical major company to locate downtown instead of the suburbs? If you run a company who's main goal is to make a profit, why spend what can amount to +$100k extra annually on parking in DT when you can rid yourself of that expense totally somewhere else?
What I was saying was that the company usually doesn't pay for the parking, the employees do. In a sense the company has to be in a location where the employees *can* pay for parking, and that's where the cost issue arises.
I'm sure it ranges. If we had to personally pay, we'd be heading to the Southside in a heartbeat. My company now plans to pay for a block of parking, which has alleviated most employee's parking concerns. That's a cost the company will eat that they would not if we relocated to the burbs. The significant factor in our case is the CEO wants to be downtown.
Quote from: johnny_simpatico on October 19, 2010, 09:04:32 AM
But you and I know the sprawl model will not be reversed. The developers are in charge here and will remain in charge, with no real voice for the activists, the academics, the environmentalists, or any one else who might have a different opinion about Jacksonville's livability.
Passage of Amendment 4 might better equalize the playing field for downtown vs. the burbs. As johnny notes above, it sure isn't getting done now.
[/quote]
Passage of Amendment 4 might better equalize the playing field for downtown vs. the burbs. As johnny notes above, it sure isn't getting done now.
[/quote]
Most have no idea of the level of NE Florida future growth vested yet unseen now.
During the past decade while we have been focused on evil central Florida over growth/water wars key happenings here at home have assured an untold level of of our own version.Alternatives to Downtown stretch beyond the far horizon.......
The growth industry has been cheering all along.
I am a big fan of #4-however in yet another example of in the dark most do not understand #4 will not rectify what we have committed to.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 19, 2010, 01:16:09 PM
It's not an availability issue. In the case of office use, it's a cost issue. Other than pride in the urban community, what incentive is there for a typical major company to locate downtown instead of the suburbs? If you run a company who's main goal is to make a profit, why spend what can amount to +$100k extra annually on parking in DT when you can rid yourself of that expense totally somewhere else?
The simple solution, if parking were really the root problem, would be for downtown landlords to factor in the cost of parking when establishing their lease rates.
Parking is an issue but parking is not the biggest problem with downtown. There is nothing about downtown Jacksonville that is attractive to the businesses that are relocating. There is a better variety of shopping and restaurants on the southside. There are more services (for everyone but the homeless and drug abusers) on the southside. Southside office parks are generally clean and well landscaped and it is unlikely that panhandlers are going to hit you up for change when you are headed to lunch.
Unless you are a business that needs to be in close proximity to government offices or the courthouse, how do you benefit in any way from locating your offices in downtown Jacksonville?
You dont benefit, so what are we going to do about it? The city is aware that bussiness are leaving DT right, just checking.
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on October 19, 2010, 02:35:51 PM
You dont benefit, so what are we going to do about it? The city is aware that bussiness are leaving DT right, just checking.
We MUST elect a mayor and city council that will offer significant incentives for businesses (large and small) and residents to move back to the urban core.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 19, 2010, 12:51:09 PM
^On the surface that may be true. However, its a serious problem if Company A that can operate anywhere (burbs or DT) with no problem. At that point, why would Company A pay more to reserve +100 dedicated spaces in a DT garage when they can head out to the Southside and park in a surface lots with no extra expense? The same can be said in any city but that dynamic changes when you're in a quality urban environment where people want to be. In Jax, we're just not there and appear to be going backwards. As I said in another thread, the parking issue is much more complicated than most would imagine. Plus, its only one of many things that must be addressed before DT can ultimately be successful.
especially when the Southside office district is much more convenient for all those workers driving in from St. Johns County and Mandarin....the truth is downtown offices will continue to struggle until such time as there are more incentives to being down there....and chief among them is having a workforce that lives nearby!
Yes and we have a problem attracting the kind of workforce that wants to live near downtown or in downtown, i.e. young professionals recently out of college or grad school. We are essentially a blue collar town with rich people in it. We have 3 types of businesses: blue collar (which often pays well, just a different type of employee who may not be looking to live/work/shop downtown), services/call center types (often young people, but not progressive young people...they care more about the clubs and the mall, etc), and experienced white collar (these are your 40+ group who is now raising a family and wants to live in a more upscale suburban environment).
The missing ingredient is a large population of college grads/MBAs who need entry level or just beyond entry level white collar jobs. This is the group that defines Charlotte. This is the group that wants to live and work downtown and they are willing to pay extra for it (for parking, per square foot for a condo, for dining out, etc). We are missing this group. This group also energizes the older corporate type with families (bringing them back per se). Your average executive or white collar worker in Jax is 40-60, second wife, golf=priority, etc. Your older executives in Charlotte work side by side with their younger selves, and so they are energized and want to help make Charlotte a good environment for their former "selves". (disclosure, they may also care more about golf and be on their second wife, but they have enough renewed energy to relive their younger days and help other young workers within the company relive those days by investing in downtown).
In addition to changing policies downtown and making it less of a "headache" as Lake so correctly explained, we should try to attract younger professionals.
Quote from: Miss Fixit on October 19, 2010, 02:25:25 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on October 19, 2010, 01:16:09 PM
It's not an availability issue. In the case of office use, it's a cost issue. Other than pride in the urban community, what incentive is there for a typical major company to locate downtown instead of the suburbs? If you run a company who's main goal is to make a profit, why spend what can amount to +$100k extra annually on parking in DT when you can rid yourself of that expense totally somewhere else?
The simple solution, if parking were really the root problem, would be for downtown landlords to factor in the cost of parking when establishing their lease rates.
Parking is an issue but parking is not the biggest problem with downtown. There is nothing about downtown Jacksonville that is attractive to the businesses that are relocating. There is a better variety of shopping and restaurants on the southside. There are more services (for everyone but the homeless and drug abusers) on the southside. Southside office parks are generally clean and well landscaped and it is unlikely that panhandlers are going to hit you up for change when you are headed to lunch.
Unless you are a business that needs to be in close proximity to government offices or the courthouse, how do you benefit in any way from locating your offices in downtown Jacksonville?
This basically sums up downtown's inability to attract and retain major companies.
Quote from: simms3 on October 19, 2010, 02:55:24 PM
Yes and we have a problem attracting the kind of workforce that wants to live near downtown or in downtown, i.e. young professionals recently out of college or grad school. We are essentially a blue collar town with rich people in it.
Other than the love of being downtown (just because its downtown), why would anyone want to be there? Its a sick urban environment that's priced out like it offers the lifestyle and activity of a 24/7 healthy urban environment. Until the city invest in things that are a necessity for a healthy urban center, nothing is going to change.
Quote from: tufsu1 on October 19, 2010, 02:43:41 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on October 19, 2010, 12:51:09 PM
^On the surface that may be true. However, its a serious problem if Company A that can operate anywhere (burbs or DT) with no problem. At that point, why would Company A pay more to reserve +100 dedicated spaces in a DT garage when they can head out to the Southside and park in a surface lots with no extra expense? The same can be said in any city but that dynamic changes when you're in a quality urban environment where people want to be. In Jax, we're just not there and appear to be going backwards. As I said in another thread, the parking issue is much more complicated than most would imagine. Plus, its only one of many things that must be addressed before DT can ultimately be successful.
especially when the Southside office district is much more convenient for all those workers driving in from St. Johns County and Mandarin....the truth is downtown offices will continue to struggle until such time as there are more incentives to being down there....and chief among them is having a workforce that lives nearby!
With this said, I believe the focus of downtown may need to change. Maybe it should be a priority to attract places that when they bloom, they don't relocate because of the amount of investment spent in their facilities? Think medical, education, cultural, government, maritime. Here, one would be looking at established mainstays like the local/federal/state governments, Baptist Health, Shands, FSCJ, Maxwell Coffee, North Florida Shipyards, etc. as economic anchors. These are places that most likely won't be going anywhere anytime soon. Build a close knit urban community that is attractive for their employees, students of customers instead of worrying about what the burbs are doing. Accept those as your major economic anchors and build around them through aggressively recruiting of complementing businesses.
Lakelander has a good point. Jacksonville really blew it years ago when it took the developer's bait and put UNF out in the the swampland. The remains remains largely disconnected from the rest of the city. I pity the poor students stuck out there without cars and with pathetically minimal bus service.
Someone earlier made the excellent point about Savannah flourishing in part because of SCAD. Now that UNF's great art department has a toehold downtown in MOCA, the school should consider moving its entire art department downtown. UNF already teaches some courses there. (I've talked with some adjunct faculty who refuse to trek out to the main UNF facility.) There obviously is plenty of cheap available space downtown, and the freed-up space out in UNF's remote campus could be redeployed to another department, avoiding more construction expense down the road.
Of course, having all this activity downtown would require improved transportation to UNF, which could be provided by UNF's private shuttles or by JTA. Bingo!
The SCAD-style suggestion is spot on. Bringing in young, discretionary income spending art kids will give DT the flavor it seems to be lacking. This has been true in cities like Chicago and New York who are investing heavily in the very lucrative private student housing market. A 7-11 (or whatever chain we have here, Kangaroo?) would make money hand over fist as will small eateries like Subway, etc. Having a base floor of retail with high-end student residences in the upper floors, not to mention classroom space? Let's make it happen.
No school is going to invest heavily in downtown without some incentives. We also just let two potential targets (Florida Coastal School of Law & the Art Institute of Jax) open campuses on the Southside in the last couple of years. Maybe it's time to throw some money/tax breaks at them to relocate to downtown? It worked for Charlotte (Johnson & Wales) and Orlando (UCF & FAMU Law). Considering the number of DT companies relocating to the Southside because of financial reasons, a switch-a-roo must be possible.
Chicago issued an RFP for a 1/2 city block surface lot at State and Congress, sold the property for a buck, and now they have an 18-story private student housing facility housing 4 schools. In the summer they offer long-term conference/convention housing and year-round meeting space. This building is a cash cow. But it wouldn't have gotten off the ground if the City hadn't recognized the value of having an impressive anchor, developing the Loop education corridor, adding retail establishments, etc. etc. etc.
Empty lots languishing, or moving forward on great development opportunities? Gee Jax...what to do?
QuoteChicago issued an RFP for a 1/2 city block surface lot at State and Congress, sold the property for a buck, and now they have an 18-story private student housing facility housing 4 schools.
Vestcor offered to develop the Old Main Library at no cost to the City provided the City gave them the property. Atkins, Peterbrook, and now Cesery Properties, and the building has not changed much. I think we would have at least been freed of the monstrosity, and likely have now a beautiful glass and steel apartment building, had Vestcor, a proven performer, been awarded the property way back when.
No criticism of Atkins. I hear the City was so far up their butt after the Shipyard Debacle, that Atkins got cold feet about dealing with the City, and bailed. I am excited about Atkin's Barnett Building / Trio project, though. Hope they get going soon.
...well we don't have a "beautiful glass and steel apartment building." (Is there such a thing in Jacksonville?) But we do have the former Haydon Burns Library on seemingly perpetual hold status. The city should never had sold it for peanuts, but given the lack of any visible progress, perhaps owner Cesery should throw in the towel and sell it to an educational institution. Not a bad location for UNF's art program, for example. Another satellite campus for SCAD?
I was Downtown yesterday and I'm always concerned about the parking. I'm not Downtown often but I do find it frustrating and stressful. For example I'm on Bay st. near the Landing and find a 1 hour meter. This is around 4-5pm. Fine.
I leave that spot and I'm wanting to check out the new steel tip dart boards at Northstar Subs (hope I got that name right) I know my priorities! They are also on Bay st. I drive around the block twice. Finally get a spot. I pull in to a 30 minute meter. I commit to the spot. Go in and I'm thinking a 30 minute meter in front of a restaurant.
I go in and obviously I was there more than 30 minutes because I walk out and its expired and luckily no ticket.
But getting back to the thread and businesses leaving. I remember members of Met Jax meeting at then Boomtown with then city councilwoman Jenkins and now mayoral candidate Jim Bailey. Parking meters were the issue. Can anyone comment on how that issue moved forward.
Also, can anyone comment on the taxpayer subsidized parking garages Downtown. How many do we have? Is it working? Do we need more? or is it. What were we thinking. Just asking.
There are three garages that are guaranteed an 8% profit. One by the new courthouse, and two by the coliseum/ballpark. The subsidy is far more than what was anticipated originally. Part of the reason is the courthouse is only now being built after a long delay.
It was an 'unusual' deal to say the least. It involved some very promenient and politically connected individuals. The city claims it was spared the expense of building these garages itself and can collect property taxes on them. Of course, the city in effect pays those taxes to itself, if a profit is not made (which is what is happening).
The city looked at installed the 'modern' meters that other cities have ( accepts cards, etc.), but cancelled those plans. If memory serves, it would have cost less than a lot of the 'studies' the city pays for without the blink of an eye.
City is concerned , really,about lip service towards saving money..........supposedly............but here we go with another study being done! Fourth Floor probably has a room chock full of studies done in the past just sitting in the dust filled cabinets and yet we have to pay for another study to be done! That old information is no good since so much time has passed.....over a year, so we go pay for another study! Well I think we should do a study about the studies ::) I guess the right people did not get their cut, so the taxpayer just gets to pick up the tab.........like usual!
Quote from: Noone on October 20, 2010, 04:51:51 AM
I go in and obviously I was there more than 30 minutes because I walk out and its expired and luckily no ticket.
that's because the meter maids go home....while the meters aren't officially free until 6pm, you are pretty much assured of no ticket afte 5pm
IMO any private developer who is willing to build on a vacant lot or surface parking in the core should be given some temporary tax forgiveness and a LOT more freedom in deciding what to build and how to build it.
Quote from: Miss Fixit on October 19, 2010, 10:19:44 AM
Jacksonville desperately needs the equivalent of Savannah College of Art and Design, combined with a bestseller (along the lines of Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil) that will draw tourists to our historic districts.
COJ already ran off a med school, a law school, and an arts college from locating downtown.
And that's just in the last 5 years...
Wonder what they are planning to do with all the abandoned buildings? Make them into more empty garages?
Also, I see people in this thread are confusing the issue. There are something less than 7k workers left downtown now, and around 35k parking spaces. That means every single worker would have to find a way to bring 5 different cars with them every single day before we'd use up our available parking downtown, let alone have a shortage.
The issue is that COJ ruthlessly enforces asinine policies that hassles and nickel & dimes anyone who goes down there. The meters don't give you enough time to grab lunch, let alone attend a meeting, and the parking nazis are always standing by waiting to issue a BS ticket. This prevents many people from coming down there at all. It also means corporate folks are forced into the arms of the parking lot owners at exorbitant rates.
It's all an orchestrated scheme to overcharge for a commodity for which there is an oversupply and no real demand. In short, an orchestrated market. Corporations aren't dumb, they know what's up, and almost every single one has now decided to forgo paying the cartel and has bailed for the suburbs. And despite Tufsu pointing out every other possible reason, the truth is that all of them have cited the asinine parking situation as the major reason.
Paid parking should be eliminated entirely. The city doesn't make money on it (costs more to maintain the meters and pay the meter maids than it brings in, which again tells you there's no demand), and it has killed virtually all economic activity in the urban core. The 11E starbucks used to be hilarious, watching people circle trying to decide between paying $9 to go in the garage or risk a $15 ticket just to get a $3 latte. No wonder they closed, like everything else.
Eliminating the convenience parking (short-term meters) in favor of a parking free-for-all doesn't help small businesses downtown either. If employees won't walk a few blocks (REASONABLE) from a parking garage for an 8-hour day, you think someone running into a Starbucks will? The last garage I parked at was across from Modis and I got validation. However, it took an Act of Congress to find a spot at 11am and the first spot I found couldn't fit my Yaris because 2 SUVs were on either side. Top floor parking. Even if it was free in the future I wouldn't do that to run into a coffeshop, bookstore, jewelry store, barber shop, or any other business you want me to patronize.
Several people have complained about being ticketed for running over their meter. Um, yeah. It's a time limit. If you can't guarantee you will be back in 2 hours (1 hour, 30 minutes, whatever the meter indicates) then don't park on the street. It's not meant for long-term parking. If you think it reasonable to go to an hour-long meeting that usually runs over, plus chatting and the walk to/from the office with a 2-hour limit - enjoy your fine.
Quote from: Singejoufflue on October 21, 2010, 09:01:54 PM
Eliminating the convenience parking (short-term meters) in favor of a parking free-for-all doesn't help small businesses downtown either. If employees won't walk a few blocks (REASONABLE) from a parking garage for an 8-hour day, you think someone running into a Starbucks will? The last garage I parked at was across from Modis and I got validation. However, it took an Act of Congress to find a spot at 11am and the first spot I found couldn't fit my Yaris because 2 SUVs were on either side. Top floor parking. Even if it was free in the future I wouldn't do that to run into a coffeshop, bookstore, jewelry store, barber shop, or any other business you want me to patronize.
Several people have complained about being ticketed for running over their meter. Um, yeah. It's a time limit. If you can't guarantee you will be back in 2 hours (1 hour, 30 minutes, whatever the meter indicates) then don't park on the street. It's not meant for long-term parking. If you think it reasonable to go to an hour-long meeting that usually runs over, plus chatting and the walk to/from the office with a 2-hour limit - enjoy your fine.
Where are all these small businesses you are talking about? There aren't but a handful left...
And you miss the point. Make asinine rules and enforce them, sure it may be legal, but people will just go places where there aren't asinine rules. Who does that help? Much like in our JTA discussion, you have again missed the point.
Rather than saying how people should adapt to silly rules 'just because,' if you want success the rules must adapt.
Knock yourself out making asinine rules and enforcing them to your heart's content. The problem with your attitude is, like I told you last time, I'm not your child...or COJ's for that matter. Accordingly, there is no "rule" that says I have to go downtown at all. I'll just continue to avoid the hassle entirely by not going. The same as everyone else does. Riverside is nicer anyway, and parking is free, no skin off my teeth at all.
Keep it up with that attitude, at this rate the only people left down there shortly will be the meter maids.
Quote from: Singejoufflue on October 21, 2010, 09:01:54 PM
Eliminating the convenience parking (short-term meters) in favor of a parking free-for-all doesn't help small businesses downtown either. If employees won't walk a few blocks (REASONABLE) from a parking garage for an 8-hour day, you think someone running into a Starbucks will? The last garage I parked at was across from Modis and I got validation. However, it took an Act of Congress to find a spot at 11am and the first spot I found couldn't fit my Yaris because 2 SUVs were on either side. Top floor parking. Even if it was free in the future I wouldn't do that to run into a coffeshop, bookstore, jewelry store, barber shop, or any other business you want me to patronize.
Several people have complained about being ticketed for running over their meter. Um, yeah. It's a time limit. If you can't guarantee you will be back in 2 hours (1 hour, 30 minutes, whatever the meter indicates) then don't park on the street. It's not meant for long-term parking. If you think it reasonable to go to an hour-long meeting that usually runs over, plus chatting and the walk to/from the office with a 2-hour limit - enjoy your fine.
Also, nobody is complaining about walking from a garage. They're complaining about the artificially inflated cost.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 21, 2010, 08:38:16 PM
Also, I see people in this thread are confusing the issue. There are something less than 7k workers left downtown now, and around 35k parking spaces.
not that I want to rehash this, but that is simply not true...as shown before, there are over 5,000 government workers alone downtown
Quote from: tufsu1 on October 21, 2010, 09:29:33 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 21, 2010, 08:38:16 PM
Also, I see people in this thread are confusing the issue. There are something less than 7k workers left downtown now, and around 35k parking spaces.
not that I want to rehash this, but that is simply not true...as shown before, there are over 5,000 government workers alone downtown
And that's about all that's left, is government workers. The private sector has almost completely bailed.
We figured 8k or so back before AmSouth, MPS, and LOTS all bailed citing parking. I shaved off another 1k. It's close.
Stephen, I parked downtown at least once a week all summer. I got great metered spots. By the library, Hemming Plaza. No tickets. I used the meter as intended, quick trips. My point was that, outside of regular DT employees, random folks aren't going to stop into any business (small, medium or large) if they are forced to park in a garage and search for a space for 15 minutes even if it is free. That latte will be just as refreshing when I cross the bridge to get it.
Chris. I am aware of how few small businesses there are in DT. Perhaps I should have put this in the "small business" section of the Downtown failure forum, because in those threads the tears flow about parking woes. If you make parking free so big businesses stay, there need to be small businesses like restaurants, coffee shops, etc. so big business people can have lunch and get their haircut and buy coffee. Those small businesses need to build closer to the big businesses to have a sufficient flow of customers during the morning, lunch and evening to minimally sustain their business. But if all that parking is free, and the big business people park on the street in front of the little business all day, there won't be parking in a reasonably convenient distance that makes stopping downtown to patronize all the great places that are, could be and have been practical.
Quote from: Singejoufflue on October 21, 2010, 09:41:33 PM
Stephen, I parked downtown at least once a week all summer. I got great metered spots. By the library, Hemming Plaza. No tickets. I used the meter as intended, quick trips. My point was that, outside of regular DT employees, random folks aren't going to stop into any business (small, medium or large) if they are forced to park in a garage and search for a space for 15 minutes even if it is free. That latte will be just as refreshing when I cross the bridge to get it.
Chris. I am aware of how few small businesses there are in DT. Perhaps I should have put this in the "small business" section of the Downtown failure forum, because in those threads the tears flow about parking woes. If you make parking free so big businesses stay, there need to be small businesses like restaurants, coffee shops, etc. so big business people can have lunch and get their haircut and buy coffee. Those small businesses need to build closer to the big businesses to have a sufficient flow of customers during the morning, lunch and evening to minimally sustain their business. But if all that parking is free, and the big business people park on the street in front of the little business all day, there won't be parking in a reasonably convenient distance that makes stopping downtown to patronize all the great places that are, could be and have been practical.
Maybe you missed the point about how most meters don't even give you enough time to visit a small business, even if there were many still open down there? Well they don't. As you apparently already know.
Have you also missed all the business owners of every size, large, small, and in between, who have bailed and said that the main reason was parking? So lemme get this straight, you parked down there a handful of times, so now suddenly you're an expert who knows more than the actual business owners who have been saying for years that it's a problem? You do realize the thing inside that little green envelope you got is a ticket, not a diploma, right?
Parking does not need to be free. I pay to park in Atlanta on the street every day. I used to have a garage pass for a garage outside of my building, but now I park in a variety of spots, so I use on street parking and pay anywher from $1/hr to $0.75/half hour. Some areas have a 2 hour max and some areas have a 4 hour max. I carry coins because my stupid school which is normally more advanced than practically anywhere in the world still uses coin meters, but the city of Atlanta uses the electronic machines. Most are user friendly, fast, and convenient, the new one by Tech Square is very user unfriendly (wasn't designed by a Tech student that's for sure).
For me it is worth it to pay even though I am poor. Sometimes I use MARTA though if I have the extra time or it's rush hour and I'm glad I have that option. It's $2.75 for one trip, even to go one stop away (I usually buy a bulkload of passes on my Breeze Card so it's less per trip). Nothing is free. Downtown living isn't cheap. However, I don't have to waste time in traffic, I can park in one spot and walk everywhere (or just take the train), and I have a plethora of options within a few block radius. Convenience convenience convenience my friend. That's what it comes down to. Downtown is no longer convenient or worth it for companies and small businesses to stay. If we make it convenient and worth it, then parking costs will also be worth it to those companies that need downtown office space and those small businesses/customers that want the convenience of downtown.
Singe, I suppose you think this is a great investment, don't you?
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,915.0.html
What's next for COJ Parking Enforcement? One of these?
(http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/attachments/international-automotive-scene/31777d1216804959-adolf-hitlers-1940-grosser-mercedes-w150-cabriolet-1940-grosser-mb770s-ii-front.jpg)
Quote from: simms3 on October 21, 2010, 09:54:16 PM
Parking does not need to be free. I pay to park in Atlanta on the street every day. I used to have a garage pass for a garage outside of my building, but now I park in a variety of spots, so I use on street parking and pay anywher from $1/hr to $0.75/half hour. Some areas have a 2 hour max and some areas have a 4 hour max. I carry coins because my stupid school which is normally more advanced than practically anywhere in the world still uses coin meters, but the city of Atlanta uses the electronic machines. Most are user friendly, fast, and convenient, the new one by Tech Square is very user unfriendly (wasn't designed by a Tech student that's for sure).
For me it is worth it to pay even though I am poor. Sometimes I use MARTA though if I have the extra time or it's rush hour and I'm glad I have that option. It's $2.75 for one trip, even to go one stop away (I usually buy a bulkload of passes on my Breeze Card so it's less per trip). Nothing is free. Downtown living isn't cheap. However, I don't have to waste time in traffic, I can park in one spot and walk everywhere (or just take the train), and I have a plethora of options within a few block radius. Convenience convenience convenience my friend. That's what it comes down to. Downtown is no longer convenient or worth it for companies and small businesses to stay. If we make it convenient and worth it, then parking costs will also be worth it to those companies that need downtown office space and those small businesses/customers that want the convenience of downtown.
Atlanta has more people than parking, Jacksonville has the reverse. Can't really compare the two.
I also must add that the last few times I was downtown and had to park outside of a garage I had no trouble finding an open spot. Twice in the past few months my meter expired for a considerable amount of time and I did not receive a ticket (the last spot I got was probably the best in downtown...the metered spot on Forsyth next to BB&T catty corner to BofA...and that was expired for longer than an hour DURING lunch hour). My biggest inconvenience was the fact that I had to use coins and the max time I could pay for was 1.5 hours. Coming from Atlanta I of course had like 50 quarters in my car, but I can see a suburbanite running into a problem there. I just don't see how parking is the big issue downtown. Suburbanites have the perception that it's a problem and we can just educate them and make it easier for them (better signage, electronic meters, etc). Companies who cover their employees' parking can't justify the costs, even though the costs are less than other downtowns, because there is no longer a real benefit to being in our downtown. We can fix that by fixing downtown. We don't need to fix the non-issue of parking.
Chris...your point about Atlanta? Actually people pay for parking in downtown/midtown because it is worth it to them. It isn't about how many people there are. The same is not true for downtown Jax. Even if we added no residents to downtown Jax but made downtown the hub of business and leisure, people in Jax would pay whatever to park to go there. It's not about how many people live in the area. My old location in Midtown was even more centralized and I never paid for parking because I could walk everywhere, so actually me living there made me not think it was worth it to pay to park.
OH GEEZ! Thanks Stephen for reminding me about all the disposable income I was supposed to be burning through when I was unemployed from June to this past Tuesday. My pockets were getting heavy...
When I do go to big box stores, I'm that a-hole that makes a list and actually spends the money I intend without having to joke with the cashier about "Target being the blackhole of spending." But, I am the person that, with disposable income, will go to a nice restaurant or stop at a local coffee shop for a slightly more expensive cup of coffee. But not if the inconvenience of parking precludes me from getting back to my car without my coffee getting cold. If you eliminate the meters, the 5,000 or 50,000 DT employees will gobble up all the onstreet parking. And there aren't too many people who are going to spend a half hour trying to figure out parking to get that $4 latte.
Chris that's an a-hole picture and offensive. Parking at a meter means you accept the risk associated with overstaying your time. If you aren't willing to accept the $15 ticket for defaulting on your agreement to abide by the rules, DON'T PARK THERE.
Quote from: Singejoufflue on October 21, 2010, 10:04:00 PM
OH GEEZ! Thanks Stephen for reminding me about all the disposable income I was supposed to be burning through when I was unemployed from June to this past Tuesday. My pockets were getting heavy...
When I do go to big box stores, I'm that a-hole that makes a list and actually spends the money I intend without having to joke with the cashier about "Target being the blackhole of spending." But, I am the person that, with disposable income, will go to a nice restaurant or stop at a local coffee shop for a slightly more expensive cup of coffee. But not if the inconvenience of parking precludes me from getting back to my car without my coffee getting cold. If you eliminate the meters, the 5,000 or 50,000 DT employees will gobble up all the onstreet parking. And there aren't too many people who are going to spend a half hour trying to figure out parking to get that $4 latte.
Chris that's an a-hole picture and offensive. Parking at a meter means you accept the risk associated with overstaying your time. If you aren't willing to accept the $15 ticket for defaulting on your agreement to abide by the rules, DON'T PARK THERE.
Offensive? Are you kidding me? It was (obviously) meant to be tongue in cheek...
And FWIW, we already settled this debate, didn't we? I choose not to enter the agreement, and I don't go down there to have to worry about asinine rules and BS tickets, and neither do most other people. As a result, downtown office space has a nearly 90% vacancy rate, most of the small businesses have closed, all the major tenants are bailing, and like I said soon the meter maids will have the whole place to themselves. Clearly your policy ideas really worked wonders!
And I do agree with singejoufflue (your profile name is to hard to spell btw). When I park at a meter I usually give mysefl 15 or so additional minutes just in case my stay is longer, but sometimes I take my chances and don't pay at all. In those cases I would be upset initially with a ticket, but I would realize it's my fault. Tickets aren't too much of an inconvenience if you can pay online. If you have to trance over to the muni courthouse then it becomes more than a $15 hastle.
Quote from: simms3 on October 21, 2010, 10:12:10 PM
And I do agree with singejoufflue (your profile name is to hard to spell btw). When I park at a meter I usually give mysefl 15 or so additional minutes just in case my stay is longer, but sometimes I take my chances and don't pay at all. In those cases I would be upset initially with a ticket, but I would realize it's my fault. Tickets aren't too much of an inconvenience if you can pay online. If you have to trance over to the muni courthouse then it becomes more than a $15 hastle.
The problem is that most meters are 45min or 1hr maximums, which isn't enough time to do much of anything really. Why not make them 3 or 4 hours at a minimum? It's not like there is any shortage of parking down there, who would it possibly hurt? The nonexistent small businesses that were already driven out by the very policies I'm arguing need to be changed? Come on...
It's a mess. Given the supply/demand situation for parking, and given the hurdles facing downtown redevelopment, I see no valid reason (other than greed) to charge for parking at all. There is a gross oversupply as it sits. That would stimulate visitors and foot traffic, which in turn would stimulate business development.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 21, 2010, 10:09:32 PM
And FWIW, we already settled this debate, didn't we? I choose not to enter the agreement, and I don't go down there to have to worry about asinine rules and BS tickets, and neither do most other people.
Right now the only reason I go to downtown Jax is to take pictures, go to the River Club or to top of BofA (and the first has its own garage that's free for that purpose), go to East Bay Street at night (free parking in courthouse lot), or visit dad (his building has a garage and I get validated). There is no "real" reason for me to go downtown.
In Atlanta I live downtown, but if I did not live downtown I would go there for eating out, visiting friends, school, meetings for a variety of things like ULI for instance, clubs/bars, Piedmont Park, a host of events, and the list goes on. Because I am going downtown because I want to and that's where everyone else goes, parking is worth it.
Chris, if downtown were more than it currently is, would you think that it's worth it to pay for parking and would you go downtown? I ask because you say you rarely go downtown because of the parking, but I have a hunch it's because there is no "real" reason to go downtown.
Simms, call me Sin, Sing, Singe, or whatever makes it easiest for you.
Stephen, if you work in a mall, at a big box or strip mall, you aren't allowed to park in front of the stores. That parking is for customers only. No meter required. Why should employees park on the street downtown?
Quote from: stephendare on October 21, 2010, 09:33:36 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on October 21, 2010, 09:29:33 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 21, 2010, 08:38:16 PM
Also, I see people in this thread are confusing the issue. There are something less than 7k workers left downtown now, and around 35k parking spaces.
not that I want to rehash this, but that is simply not true...as shown before, there are over 5,000 government workers alone downtown
This was never "shown" during your campaign to pretend downtown = 53,000 workers (actual answer? Closer to 8,200). Why pretend that it was?
really?
ok try this estimate for just the downtown core area:
COJ - >3,000+ employees
Sherriffs Dept - >2,500 employees
JEA - >500
Federal Govt - >500
State of Florida - >500
So that';s 7,000+...feel free to check yourself if you don't believ me
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 21, 2010, 10:17:47 PM
Quote from: simms3 on October 21, 2010, 10:12:10 PM
And I do agree with singejoufflue (your profile name is to hard to spell btw). When I park at a meter I usually give mysefl 15 or so additional minutes just in case my stay is longer, but sometimes I take my chances and don't pay at all. In those cases I would be upset initially with a ticket, but I would realize it's my fault. Tickets aren't too much of an inconvenience if you can pay online. If you have to trance over to the muni courthouse then it becomes more than a $15 hastle.
The problem is that most meters are 45min or 1hr maximums, which isn't enough time to do much of anything really. Why not make them 3 or 4 hours at a minimum? It's not like there is any shortage of parking down there, who would it possibly hurt? The nonexistent small businesses that were already driven out by the very policies I'm arguing need to be changed? Come on...
It's a mess. Given the supply/demand situation for parking, and given the hurdles facing downtown redevelopment, I see no valid reason (other than greed) to charge for parking at all. There is a gross oversupply as it sits. That would stimulate visitors and foot traffic, which in turn would stimulate business development.
I thought the majority of the meters have a 2 hr max. Anybody certain?
People go to malls for different reasons than downtown. Malls are developed cohesively under different parameters that make it possible to cheaply provide mass parking. Downtown is not the same way. Downtown land is so much more expensive, there is less land, and downtown is not developed cohesively as one project. Downtown by nature is a public private partnership. The problem with our downtown is the public part is missing in many important ways so the private part suffers.
Quote from: simms3 on October 21, 2010, 10:20:02 PM
Right now the only reason I go to downtown Jax is to take pictures, go to the River Club or to top of BofA (and the first has its own garage that's free for that purpose), go to East Bay Street at night (free parking in courthouse lot), or visit dad (his building has a garage and I get validated). There is no "real" reason for me to go downtown.
In Atlanta I live downtown, but if I did not live downtown I would go there for eating out, visiting friends, school, meetings for a variety of things like ULI for instance, clubs/bars, Piedmont Park, a host of events, and the list goes on. Because I am going downtown because I want to and that's where everyone else goes, parking is worth it.
I just made this exact point to you when I said DT Atlanta has more people than parking and JAX is the reverse, and so the two aren't comparable. Maybe I didn't explain myself thoroughly, but this is exactly what I meant.
Quote from: simms3 on October 21, 2010, 10:20:02 PM
Chris, if downtown were more than it currently is, would you think that it's worth it to pay for parking and would you go downtown? I ask because you say you rarely go downtown because of the parking, but I have a hunch it's because there is no "real" reason to go downtown.
Well yeah, that's true. Sorta. I would probably go to Cafe Nola more, I'd go to the cigar store more, heck I may even go to the landing. I go to the downtown clubs pretty often, and go to art walk regularly, but only because I know I won't get ticketed after 5pm. But as it sits, virtually every time I go there during regular hours, I get a "green badge of courage" which I find annoying to no end. They have intentionally structured things to make it virtually unavoidable, and while I don't think a $15 ticket is going to force anybody to live in a cardboard box, there is just something uniquely infuriating about knowing you've been "had" by this kind of scam.
In BOS or ATL, or any real city for that matter, if you get hit with a ticket, I usually know up front that I deserved it, and there are things that make it worth dealing with. JAX is infuriating, because there will be your ticketed car sitting all by itself on an empty street surrounded by empty spaces and abandoned buildings and vacant lots. It's like a syphilis-ridden hooker with no teeth and a wooden peg-leg screaming at people for not having exact change.
I think COJ needs to truck in some tumbleweed to complete the picture down there, it would be that 'extra' touch that would really bring together the look they're going for. But now you're in a catch-22, since nothing will develop down there until there is actually some kind of traffic, which won't happen as long as COJ is nickel & diming and hassling everyone who tries to go down there.
Malls are destinations and are designed to keep you there for a maximum amount of time to ensure you spend maximum dollars. Downtowns exist primarily as business and civic districts, therefore residential and retail take a far back seat.
Quote from: Live_Oak on October 21, 2010, 10:29:02 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 21, 2010, 10:17:47 PM
Quote from: simms3 on October 21, 2010, 10:12:10 PM
And I do agree with singejoufflue (your profile name is to hard to spell btw). When I park at a meter I usually give mysefl 15 or so additional minutes just in case my stay is longer, but sometimes I take my chances and don't pay at all. In those cases I would be upset initially with a ticket, but I would realize it's my fault. Tickets aren't too much of an inconvenience if you can pay online. If you have to trance over to the muni courthouse then it becomes more than a $15 hastle.
The problem is that most meters are 45min or 1hr maximums, which isn't enough time to do much of anything really. Why not make them 3 or 4 hours at a minimum? It's not like there is any shortage of parking down there, who would it possibly hurt? The nonexistent small businesses that were already driven out by the very policies I'm arguing need to be changed? Come on...
It's a mess. Given the supply/demand situation for parking, and given the hurdles facing downtown redevelopment, I see no valid reason (other than greed) to charge for parking at all. There is a gross oversupply as it sits. That would stimulate visitors and foot traffic, which in turn would stimulate business development.
I thought the majority of the meters have a 2 hr max. Anybody certain?
The spaces around Hemming, along Bay, and pretty much everywhere else you'd actually want to park seem to be 1hr, at least the ones I've used. Some are as short as 15min. There may be a bunch of 2hr meters elsewhere, I'm not arguing that. But none of them are every particularly full, why not just make it user-friendly? What's the harm in convenience?
Quote from: Singejoufflue on October 21, 2010, 10:38:18 PM
Malls are destinations and are designed to keep you there for a maximum amount of time to ensure you spend maximum dollars. Downtowns exist primarily as business and civic districts, therefore residential and retail take a far back seat.
You lived in Chicago and you really believe what you just wrote? Seriously?
Quote from: stephendare on October 21, 2010, 10:35:58 PM
So Id be a lot more impressed if you had some kind of documentation (which you dont), but in any case, at least we arent claiming that the number is 53,000 anymore. Progress)
Nice deflection, but sorry...I never claimed there were 53,000 public sector employees downtown....or 53,000 total empoyees in the downtown core itself for that matter.
I believe the figure you are referring to is 51,000...which comes from the 2009 downtown report produced by JEDC
Quote from: tufsu1 on October 21, 2010, 10:41:33 PM
Quote from: stephendare on October 21, 2010, 10:35:58 PM
So Id be a lot more impressed if you had some kind of documentation (which you dont), but in any case, at least we arent claiming that the number is 53,000 anymore. Progress)
Nice deflection, but sorry...I never claimed there were 53,000 public sector employees downtown....or 53,000 total empoyees in the downtown core itself for that matter.
You made a few claims, declining each time actual figures got posted...
You first posted the link to the figure claiming 53k, then backed off that, admitting it included the all of the southbank and half of riverside. Then you tried to argue 30k, 18k, and I think we finally came to some kind of consensus when we started finding out the actual vacancy rates of the buildings and adding everything up, stephen and I were figuring 8k-10k or so and you were saying 12k-14k, if I remember right. Since then AmSouth, LOTS, and MPS have moved out, so how many extra people does that deduct? The true figure is certainly under 10k by now, probably way under.
thanks stephen..at least now you're getting my quotes right :)
Quote from: tufsu1 on October 21, 2010, 10:45:00 PM
thanks stephen..at least now you're getting my quotes right :)
Ok so even using your figure, how many people worked for AmSouth, LOTS, and Modis/MPS/Adecco?
Downtown Chicago isn't internationally known because Ma & Pa Farmer came into the city to visit Marshall Fields or get a great cup of coffee. DT Chicago is what it is because there is mass transit, large headquarters (United just moved downtown), commodities-trading, world-renowned architecture...The added benefit is you get cultural activities and you can buy a Jamba Juice at one of 3 stores in a 6 block radius...
(Be sure you know Chicago. The Gold Coast isn't downtown. The Magnificent Mile isn't downtown. The Loop is downtown. You are hard pressed to find something to do in the Loop other than the theater after hours. Yes there is retail til 9ish, but only the tourists are willing to pay the increased sales tax.)
Stephen, here's why. Maybe WSJ reporting and some guy from 1938 can drive home why parking meters (and the requisite enforcement) are required in downtowns and not suburban developments DESIGNED for cars.
"Employees of downtown businesses hogged spaces for whole days; some merchants deliberately parked their cars in front of competitors' stores. Other drivers circled the narrow streets waiting for a rare free space. Trucks loading or unloading double-parked. In most cities, there were no marks on curbs to delineate spaces. In the few timed spaces, enforcement by chalking the tires was easy to beat. And the art of parallel parking was in its infancy.
"None of our cities were designed for motor traffic, and only in the West were they young enough when the automobile arrived en masse to adapt themselves to the new traffic medium," wrote Arthur Pound in the Atlantic Monthly magazine in 1938." http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118574808780081653.html?mod=hps_us_editors_picks (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118574808780081653.html?mod=hps_us_editors_picks)
Quote from: Singejoufflue on October 21, 2010, 11:10:46 PM
Downtown Chicago isn't internationally known because Ma & Pa Farmer came into the city to visit Marshall Fields or get a great cup of coffee. DT Chicago is what it is because there is mass transit, large headquarters (United just moved downtown), commodities-trading, world-renowned architecture...The added benefit is you get cultural activities and you can buy a Jamba Juice at one of 3 stores in a 6 block radius...
(Be sure you know Chicago. The Gold Coast isn't downtown. The Magnificent Mile isn't downtown. The Loop is downtown. You are hard pressed to find something to do in the Loop other than the theater after hours. Yes there is retail til 9ish, but only the tourists are willing to pay the increased sales tax.)
Stephen, here's why. Maybe WSJ reporting and some guy from 1938 can drive home why parking meters (and the requisite enforcement) are required in downtowns and not suburban developments DESIGNED for cars.
"Employees of downtown businesses hogged spaces for whole days; some merchants deliberately parked their cars in front of competitors' stores. Other drivers circled the narrow streets waiting for a rare free space. Trucks loading or unloading double-parked. In most cities, there were no marks on curbs to delineate spaces. In the few timed spaces, enforcement by chalking the tires was easy to beat. And the art of parallel parking was in its infancy.
"None of our cities were designed for motor traffic, and only in the West were they young enough when the automobile arrived en masse to adapt themselves to the new traffic medium," wrote Arthur Pound in the Atlantic Monthly magazine in 1938." http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118574808780081653.html?mod=hps_us_editors_picks (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118574808780081653.html?mod=hps_us_editors_picks)
Thank you for the virtual tour of downtown chicago.
Now please explain why, as Stephen asked, if your ideas are so wonderful, SJTC doesn't have parking cops & meters?
Could it be because that would drive off the customers, perhaps?
Stephen, I answered the question (at least partly) of why malls don't enforce the same parking. Refer back to my post above.
And Chris, you lopped off a portion of my quote. I said in one location I lived in in Midtown I did not feel the need or see the worth in paying for parking. I am slightly more isolated where I am now and Midtown being 2 miles long I need a car and to park sometimes. In a dense, concentrated downtown the people parking are not those who live there, they are those visiting, whether for work or for activity/leisure. If a downtown has a ton of workers and a ton of retail/restuarants/destinations and NO residents, people will still feel compelled to park and see the value of it. Therefore your argument about parking being the problem because there are no people downtown is mute. There are no people downtown because there is no reason to be downtown. If there were reason to be downtown people would more happily pay to park downtown. Paying for parking is part of the "purchase price" of the product that downtown is. Our downtown isn't really a good product and people aren't willing to pay for it. Downtown residents would not be the parking payers because they would live downtown and walk.
Suburban retail developments are designed around their patrons use of a car and remaining for extended periods of time. Having parking meters (and therefore enforcement) is not necessary as the disappointment of not getting a premium spot (front row) does not outweigh the cost of walking an extra twenty feet.
So simms3 based on your post it would be fair to say paying for parking now is a hurdle for downtown becoming prosperous enough to warrant paying for parking.
Quote from: simms3 on October 21, 2010, 11:28:35 PM
Stephen, I answered the question (at least partly) of why malls don't enforce the same parking. Refer back to my post above.
And Chris, you lopped off a portion of my quote. I said in one location I lived in in Midtown I did not feel the need or see the worth in paying for parking. I am slightly more isolated where I am now and Midtown being 2 miles long I need a car and to park sometimes. In a dense, concentrated downtown the people parking are not those who live there, they are those visiting, whether for work or for activity/leisure. If a downtown has a ton of workers and a ton of retail/restuarants/destinations and NO residents, people will still feel compelled to park and see the value of it. Therefore your argument about parking being the problem because there are no people downtown is mute. There are no people downtown because there is no reason to be downtown. If there were reason to be downtown people would more happily pay to park downtown. Paying for parking is part of the "purchase price" of the product that downtown is. Our downtown isn't really a good product and people aren't willing to pay for it. Downtown residents would not be the parking payers because they would live downtown and walk.
I didn't mean to cut out any of your post, I was just trying to split it so I could respond in 2 parts. Sorry if anything got cut it wasn't intentional.
And what I'm trying to say downtown is that the asinine parking situation has greatly helped cause the decline of any reason to be there. The small businesses left, citing this as a problem. The major corps are leaving, citing this as a problem. Without any draw, there naturally will be no people, and without customers there will be no businesses. This is a vicious cycle and parking is at the middle of it. This isn't a chicken or egg concept, it all kind of happened at once.
Quote from: Singejoufflue on October 21, 2010, 11:33:42 PM
Suburban retail developments are designed around their patrons use of a car and remaining for extended periods of time. Having parking meters (and therefore enforcement) is not necessary as the disappointment of not getting a premium spot (front row) does not outweigh the cost of walking an extra twenty feet.
So can you actually answer the simple question or not.
And Stephen and Chris, can you guys name one large downtown that does not charge a visitor to park?
And going back to my mall example, Atlantic Station was more of a cohesive destination project developed essentially by a few corporate partners (the retail portion really only 1). It's a fairly complete destination and was a brownfield that came with huge incentives (they were essentially paid to develop the land so the land was more than free). It is not unlike a mall (1 developer, cheap land). Visitors get 2 hours free and moviegoers can validate their parking ticket if the movie takes longer.
The parking garage for 1010 Midtown has 2 levels of 2 hour free parking for visitors of tenants IN the building (must get pass validated and be there for 2 hours or less to be free). Metropolis is in such a high demand centralized location that they actually CAN charge an arm and a leg for visitors who park in its garage (and no validation from Taco Mac or other tenants like Drew Ellis and Silk). These are large scale developments. Small scale developments rely on on-street parking and other stand alone garage parking because they don't turn enough of a profit to subsidize any parking for visitors (like the garage component of AS). The city provides the on-street parking as a service and developers build/operate stand alone garages, which are also a service. They aren't free. The garage operators aren't servicing their construction loans from condo sales and commercial leases.
Quote from: simms3 on October 21, 2010, 11:38:42 PM
And Stephen and Chris, can you guys name one large downtown that does not charge a visitor to park?
Well I have to stop you right there, because with our whopping 7k workers (mostly COJ) and couple hundred residents, we are not a large downtown. Again, you're kind of comparing apples to oranges.
Stephen, what is the answer you want me to say? Comparing a large suburban retail development to a independent downtown retail store is apples and oranges. Land is cheaper in the suburbs. The space is developed around cars. It's build to suit, not retrofit.
Quote from: stephendare on October 21, 2010, 11:43:07 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 21, 2010, 11:42:02 PM
Quote from: simms3 on October 21, 2010, 11:38:42 PM
And Stephen and Chris, can you guys name one large downtown that does not charge a visitor to park?
Well I have to stop you right there, because with our whopping 7k workers (mostly COJ) and couple hundred residents, we are in no way shape or form a large downtown. Again, you're kind of comparing apples to oranges.
Chris Im sure that Simms readily acknowledges this.
Then let's stop comparing Jacksonville to cities like BOS and ORD. Those are ludicrous comparisons that have no real merit and tend to confuse the issue by comparing locations with actual population density that can support such policies without too much pain, to Jacksonville where these policies are the root of our pain.
Quote from: JeffreyS on October 21, 2010, 11:35:29 PM
So simms3 based on your post it would be fair to say paying for parking now is a hurdle for downtown becoming prosperous enough to warrant paying for parking.
I don't think making parking free is enough to make it easy and swell enough for independent investors to open small businesses downtown to provide an influx of services for employees, residents, and visitors. I also don't think it would work (why haven't any other downtowns done it?).
I think what would be more helpful to spur downtown investment would be better policies, looser regulation, tax breaks on top of what we already have, and the city getting out of the way and doing streetscapes to widen sidewalks and make downtown more attractive. As we can all probably agree, the independents coming in will eventually build momentum for more residents to come in. More residents will build momentum for chains to come in. The last piece will be more companies coming in because of more residents and the fact that downtown is once again a viable place to be.
BTW, even in larger cities submarkets like say Decatur in East Atlanta, and let's mention East Atlanta while we're at it, and garages in Buckhead, and any submarket you can think of parking is not free there either. There are either meters, electronic machines (those are mostly still in Midtown only because they were a Midtown Alliance CID initiative), or garages. I guarantee you guys that the best thing that Riverside/5 Points can do is build a sufficient garage and charge a small amount. It will take a few more years of infill to warrant the demand, but put in Insetta's restaurant and several more similar projects and a garage will actually be needed. I know if 5 Points got too crowded, I wouldn't even bother "looking" for a space, I would drive straight to the garage where I know there would be a space.
The East San Marco project would be similar to projects in Atlanta. Because it is a more cohesive project, they may have a visitor section of the garage with 2 hour max and validation from tenant in ESM to be free. Otherwise I'm sure they too would charge for parking.
And don't discount land costs in why everything in urban environments is more expensive from parking to restaurant prices to living costs to insurance premiums, etc. Land costs have a significant effect on everything, and the more built up an environment the more expensive the land.
Is parking free in OKC, Nashville, Birmingham, Orlando, Tampa, Austin, Louisville, list goes on?
Quote from: Singejoufflue on October 21, 2010, 11:45:42 PM
Stephen, what is the answer you want me to say? Comparing a large suburban retail development to a independent downtown retail store is apples and oranges. Land is cheaper in the suburbs. The space is developed around cars. It's build to suit, not retrofit.
That's not the point, and you're ducking the question...
It's harder at any given time of day to find a parking space on one of those main streets in the town center than it is to find a parking space in downtown Jacksonville. You generally have to park and walk several hundred yards or more to get to the store you're going to from the parking space you found. So why, then, is SJTC still successful despite people being (according to you) idiots who won't walk, and can't figure out what to do absent a bunch of asinine parking rules, meters, and cops?
Why doesn't SJTC use parking cops and meters then?
Like I asked, could it be because that would run people off?
Is parking free in Tulsa, Wichita, Toledo, Tuscon, Gainesville FL, Tally, Greenville SC, list goes on?
Allo of those cities are.
Quote from: simms3 on October 21, 2010, 11:51:48 PM
Is parking free in OKC, Nashville, Birmingham, Orlando, Tampa, Austin, Louisville, list goes on?
Downtown Jacksonville is not even remotely close to any of those examples either...
Savannah's urban center is far more dense than jacksonville's at this point, and parking is free.
Quote from: simms3 on October 21, 2010, 11:52:56 PM
Is parking free in Tulsa, Wichita, Toledo, Tuscon, Gainesville FL, Tally, Greenville SC, list goes on?
Parking is free in Gainesville and Greenville.
Quote from: simms3 on October 21, 2010, 11:52:56 PM
Is parking free in Tulsa, Wichita, Toledo, Tuscon, Gainesville FL, Tally, Greenville SC, list goes on?
There are a few major cities that I've visited in the last year or so that are successfully experimenting with free time limited parking on major commercial corridors in their downtowns. These places include Cleveland, Savannah, Raleigh and Mobile. On-street parking is also free on Greenville's Main Street. Anyway, I do agree that free on-street parking won't solve downtown's problems by itself but it would be more end user friendly than the current metered parking situation we have.
Also people are willing to walk and park inconveniently at the Town Center because it is what is familiar to them and is more conveniently located to more people.
Downtown is unfamiliar to people in Jacksonville, and many people in Jax relocate here to actually be in the suburbs and avoid urban areas. We are fighting that kind of populace. Free parking won't convince them to come downtown. Making downtown something they can identify with and enjoy will convince them to come downtown and paying for parking shouldn't kill that (it doesn't in other cities). If downtown were a more "family friendly" place with a higher perceived safety and more people talking about it and promoting it (ahem we can start with our own city leaders), then things can also start to change (but only if policy is changed to make it worth it for small investors to open up shop downtown and get the ball rolling).
Quote from: thelakelander on October 21, 2010, 11:57:02 PM
Quote from: simms3 on October 21, 2010, 11:52:56 PM
Is parking free in Tulsa, Wichita, Toledo, Tuscon, Gainesville FL, Tally, Greenville SC, list goes on?
There are a few major cities that I've visited in the last year or so that are successfully experimenting with free time limited parking on major commercial corridors in their downtowns. These places include Cleveland, Savannah, Raleigh and Mobile. On-street parking is also free on Greenville's Main Street. Anyway, I do agree that free on-street parking won't solve downtown's problems by itself but it would be more end user friendly than the current metered parking situation we have.
+1
I feel like I'm beating my head against a wall with this, trying to argue with people who want to point out that parking isn't a total complete final all encompassing solution. Well duh, of course its only one part of the puzzle. But it's a very necessary part of the puzzle, and is presently holding us back.
Quote from: stephendare on October 21, 2010, 11:58:39 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on October 21, 2010, 11:57:02 PM
Quote from: simms3 on October 21, 2010, 11:52:56 PM
Is parking free in Tulsa, Wichita, Toledo, Tuscon, Gainesville FL, Tally, Greenville SC, list goes on?
There are a few major cities that I've visited in the last year or so that are successfully experimenting with free time limited parking on major commercial corridors in their downtowns. These places include Cleveland, Savannah, Raleigh and Mobile. On-street parking is also free on Greenville's Main Street. Anyway, I do agree that free on-street parking won't solve downtown's problems by itself but it would be more end user friendly than the current metered parking situation we have.
As a stand alone, free parking will not solve all of downtown's problems. But the present set of parking policies is a major factor that is keeping the solutions from happening.
+1
Also I just drove through Greenville and was completely underwhelmed. It was not imo all that it was hyped up to be and seemed very very small (Don't fall for that Greenville-Spartanburg-Anderson being 1.2 million person CSA crap). And Greenville is not growing nearly as quickly as Jax. It is a completely different city, but I'm glad for them I guess that on-street parking is free. I would have happily paid if I had time and desire to walk around and take pics (because I guess I am used to paying in every downtown or urban submarket I go to).
OK well I have gotten more parking tickets in Atlanta than Jacksonville and I'm sure tons of other Atlantans have gotten tickets as well, but somehow people still keep coming back to the core in hoards. You can literally sit in traffic on Peachtree heading south on a Friday and Saturday night because of all the people trying to get into downtown, and at night is when parking is actually most expensive. Parking does not hold anyone back here. It's probably a combination of just more urban minded people who would prefer to be in the core when they can and a core that actually provides a product worth paying for.
I know our downtown does not provide a product worth paying for (which is why you can easily park for free at night and on weekends to go to Bay Street or the Landing), but making on street parking free will be a mess. Sure, enact time limits. Those time limits have to then be enforced, which is difficult. They are easily enforced with meters because meters will only allow you to pay up to the maximum time and then they expire. Greenville does not have nearly as many office workers as downtown Jax, and neither does Savannah. We may be suffering high vacancies, but we still have a high enough concetration of office workers who will find a way to use a free parking system to their advantage and prevent visitors from thereby using it.
I brought it up as a smaller example because someone thought my first shortlist of examples wasn't sufficient and I was trying to make a point.
Btw, going back to the the original purpose of this thread, free on-street parking would not have kept any of these major corporate companies from moving to the Southside. The corporate parking situation deals with the cost of dedicated parking (in some cases, dedicated parking for hundreds of employees) in the garages and surface lots.
For example, my small firm will have to pay $90/month for each employee when we move to the Northbank. There's 15 of us, so that adds up to $16,200 for parking a year. Use the same numbers for a company like Adecco and that number rises above $400k/year for dedicated parking alone. Move to the Southside and that's a ton of money saved in an environment (although its suburban) that's more lively and attractive for the average person. Throw in the fact that suburban lease rates are also cheaper and it just doesn't make sense for many places to stay or relocate to DT Jax. Until we stop trying to sell people a polished turd as a true urban center, the negative flow will continue.
Yea but Lake, there are also tons of employees downtown who contract for their own parking. My dad and my uncle are two examples. That's why you see lots where it is first come first serve for a good daily rate (if you are willing to get there that early and have your car in a surface lot uncovered). But overall, yea I agree with you, on-street parking would not solve major companies leaving who cover large amounts of dedicated parking.
If I paid for my own parking and on street was free, hell yea I would race to get to work early and find and on street spot (and if I had to move it every few hours I would attempt to do so, but that's just me). People who smoke cigs can multi task and smoke a cig while they move their car. I don't think paying a fortune for a numbered spot is worth it and I would only pay for an un-numbered spot in a garage if I had to pay for parking and on street wasn't free.
Wow 20 bucks a month. Garages and lots in Atlanta charge 20 bucks for a day for single use people. Some large lots recently opened up that are first come first serve charge 5-8 for a day and are full by 7:15 or 7:30 (and 5 bucks a day still ends up around $100 a month). $20 for an entire month? I know general appreciation has not been that extreme LoL. And going back to the cost of building a garage, 20 bucks won't even service the construction loan.
Also, I need to make this point before I forget it. I think we can all agree that Charlotte has a successful downtown. They have arguably faced a few obstacles we haven't had to face (but obviously we face a different set of tough obstacles making it difficult to bring people downtown). I doubt that Charlotte at one point had free on street and garage parking. I do know that now they have on street parking that is $2/hr with a 2 hour max and you pay by electronic machine. It is convenient (except a significant portion of the parking is taken up by taxis...which we don't really have). Their downtown wasn't always a success, but I would venture a bet that for at least around as long as our downtown has, they have charged for parking. And I don't know the garage rates there, but I am sure they aren't free (and I am sure for visitors they aren't expensive).
So what made their downtown a success? Because they didn't implement any free parking. I believe it probably has a good part to do with their city leadership and policies and also a good amount to do with the corporations they have there, but not free parking.
Another thing to note is that the reason we will always have to subsidize the stupid sports district garages is because they are so isolated, but the garage for Time Warner Center in Charlotte can be used not only for events at the stadium but for general downtown parking just because it is centrally located. That is attributable to better planning, vision, and leadership.
We can enact free on street parking and downtown can still continue to decline or we can have better leadership with clearer vision that leads to better planning that can lead to a successful downtown where people are willing to purchase the product of downtown in the form of parking (and generally higher costs).
Quote from: Jerry Moran on October 22, 2010, 12:59:33 AM
What has been said on other threads?
1. Remove all downtown parking meters.
2. Replace with appropriate time signs (15 minutes to 4 hours). Unlimited parking is some locations, or leave the all day meters intact.
3. First 3 tickets are warnings.
4. After 3 warnings, $50 citations.
This will forgive the uninitiated visitor to Downtown, and discourage street parking by office workers.
We have the technology, the van, to implement this. 2 officers could work the van. Get rid of the rest and same money for the City.
Don Redman, are you listening? I supported you during your campaign, and have taken a lot of heat for doing so. Be remembered for sensible and effective action to make Downtown Jacksonville a better place to live, work, and conduct business.
ATTENTION STEPHEN DARE: Do Not Delete Any More of My Posts Without Asking Me First!
I said on another bumped thread that I would concede on my views of paying a meter (whether coin or electronic) for on street parking if the van was used to strictly enforce time limits and repeat offenders.
Also we can't necessarily make lots and garages free. Lots are usually private and can do as they please and garages are sometimes private, sometimes public. Our public garages should still charge a very fair rate of $1-2/hr and should be highly visible with signage on the garages and signs leading visitors to garages. The city should do a better job of advertising that with the library garage an hour is free with validation.
Oh and the van should pick up on repeat offenders who park on street and routinely move their car to other spots to avoid a time ticket. These kinds of offenders would be the office workers trying to use a free 3 or 4 hour spot to park for their employment.
Quote from: simms3 on October 22, 2010, 12:37:57 AM
Wow 20 bucks a month. Garages and lots in Atlanta charge 20 bucks for a day for single use people. Some large lots recently opened up that are first come first serve charge 5-8 for a day and are full by 7:15 or 7:30 (and 5 bucks a day still ends up around $100 a month). $20 for an entire month? I know general appreciation has not been that extreme LoL. And going back to the cost of building a garage, 20 bucks won't even service the construction loan.
I started working in downtown Jacksonville in the mid '80s and garage rates were already over $50 per month then. I certainly paid close to $100 per month in the 90s. Never found any $20 garages, and I was always looking for a deal.
You're right - no way can 20 bucks a spot service the construction loan. The only way to get costs that low, or even below $50 per month, would be subsidies by the city.
Quote from: vicupstate on October 20, 2010, 06:04:26 AM
There are three garages that are guaranteed an 8% profit. One by the new courthouse, and two by the coliseum/ballpark. The subsidy is far more than what was anticipated originally. Part of the reason is the courthouse is only now being built after a long delay.
It was an 'unusual' deal to say the least. It involved some very prominent and politically connected individuals. The city claims it was spared the expense of building these garages itself and can collect property taxes on them. Of course, the city in effect pays those taxes to itself, if a profit is not made (which is what is happening).
The city looked at installed the 'modern' meters that other cities have ( accepts cards, etc.), but cancelled those plans. If memory serves, it would have cost less than a lot of the 'studies' the city pays for without the blink of an eye.
This issue needs to be revisited. It needs to also be included in the upcoming city council and mayoral campaign issues. Keep score. (Studies?) Take some of the $400,000 study money to move the fair to the Equestrian Center and use it for some modem meters in Downtown. Have a lottery. We just took $200,000 of the study money and if you want to have a state of the art parking meter in front of your business then get your name in the hat. They will be done in 5 parking meter intervals. If your neighbor wins along with you then that would mean that you and your neighbor could have 10 meters in front of your business. Wherever the meters end up that's where they end up. The drawing could take place at the Landing prior to the New Years Eve fireworks. What a way to bring in 2011. Jerry, You need to throw your name in the hat. Kris with Northstar you need to throw your name in the hat too and show up with a rabbit foot and both your fingers and toes crossed.
As to the panic attack by taking this $200,000 taxpayer money that was for this important study. The entire city needs to ask how much has been paid back of the $5,000,000 in private funding of the Equestrian center that was part of BJP. The prominent and politically connected at the very least can make up this $200,000 shortfall.
Just passed the latest budget and does anyone know the numbers on just what the subsidy is for the taxpayers on the 3 garages? As I recall Warren Alverez was the only one who voted NO when this legislation went through council. If I'm wrong on that please let me know.
As for the modem meters. Bring them on! On Jaxoutloud I had a thread about parking meters that were stolen on streets around town. Duval st. Ashley and I counted around 25 that were just caught off. This was going on for a period of time and it wasn't 25 at once. But I noticed a couple of gone here and there. Most of these were 2 hour meters around Ashley and west of Main and Ashley. Now mind you an extended period of time had elapsed and I know because the two hour meter that I used was gone. Finally I called and the parking dept was unaware that some meters were gone. I told them the spots. The next day I'm driving through downtown and there are two people replacing the two hour meters with one hour meters. I mentioned to them that what was there before were two hour meters. They are replacing them with one hour meters.
The exodus will continue.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 21, 2010, 11:55:47 PM
Quote from: simms3 on October 21, 2010, 11:52:56 PM
Is parking free in Tulsa, Wichita, Toledo, Tuscon, Gainesville FL, Tally, Greenville SC, list goes on?
Parking is free in Gainesville and Greenville.
only on some streets...and even those have time limits
Quote from: Miss Fixit on October 22, 2010, 07:05:47 AM
Quote from: simms3 on October 22, 2010, 12:37:57 AM
Wow 20 bucks a month. Garages and lots in Atlanta charge 20 bucks for a day for single use people. Some large lots recently opened up that are first come first serve charge 5-8 for a day and are full by 7:15 or 7:30 (and 5 bucks a day still ends up around $100 a month). $20 for an entire month? I know general appreciation has not been that extreme LoL. And going back to the cost of building a garage, 20 bucks won't even service the construction loan.
I started working in downtown Jacksonville in the mid '80s and garage rates were already over $50 per month then. I certainly paid close to $100 per month in the 90s. Never found any $20 garages, and I was always looking for a deal.
You're right - no way can 20 bucks a spot service the construction loan. The only way to get costs that low, or even below $50 per month, would be subsidies by the city.
exactly....while our downtown parking rates seem expensive to some, they are far cheaper than in other (bigger/better) cities....that is a reflection on the value of the property.
So, if downtown all of a sudden became wildly successful, $50-$100/month parking would be a thing of the past.
Free on street parking (with time limits on some streets) does not solve the corporate problem directly. It can help solve the problem though by helping to create a more vibrant downtown worth paying a bit more for.
And yes it would help residents who have dedicated parking but also have errands and visitors.
Quote from: simms3 on October 22, 2010, 12:02:04 AM
Also I just drove through Greenville and was completely underwhelmed. It was not imo all that it was hyped up to be and seemed very very small (Don't fall for that Greenville-Spartanburg-Anderson being 1.2 million person CSA crap). And Greenville is not growing nearly as quickly as Jax. It is a completely different city, but I'm glad for them I guess that on-street parking is free. I would have happily paid if I had time and desire to walk around and take pics (because I guess I am used to paying in every downtown or urban submarket I go to).
And you know all this about Greenville's MSA growth rates etc., based on a car ride through town?
Also, you sort of missed the point about how cities like Greenville came up in this discussion. Downtown Jacksonville is so pathetically underpopulated that you are forced to bring in tiny cities for points of appropriate comparison. We all wish that wasn't the case, but it is.
So I'm not understanding your logic on all of this. So far, all you've done in this debate is try to compare Jacksonville to *actual* major cities with functional cores, which aren't comparable in any way. You have to go down the ladder to tiny cities in order to find urban environs as sparsely populated as ours, and now you apparently want to point out that the smaller cities are, well, smaller.
Well of course they're smaller, that's the point. They're smaller but their urban areas are actually more trafficked than ours, because they recognize it's not good business to hassle anyone who tries to visit.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 22, 2010, 12:20:59 AM
Btw, going back to the the original purpose of this thread, free on-street parking would not have kept any of these major corporate companies from moving to the Southside. The corporate parking situation deals with the cost of dedicated parking (in some cases, dedicated parking for hundreds of employees) in the garages and surface lots.
For example, my small firm will have to pay $90/month for each employee when we move to the Northbank. There's 15 of us, so that adds up to $16,200 for parking a year. Use the same numbers for a company like Adecco and that number rises above $400k/year for dedicated parking alone. Move to the Southside and that's a ton of money saved in an environment (although its suburban) that's more lively and attractive for the average person. Throw in the fact that suburban lease rates are also cheaper and it just doesn't make sense for many places to stay or relocate to DT Jax. Until we stop trying to sell people a polished turd as a true urban center, the negative flow will continue.
Right, but the other half of my plan was that all city-owned garages should also be free. I think this would indeed affect overall parking rates downtown, as the garage owners would actually be forced to compete with alternatives then.
Quote from: tufsu1 on October 22, 2010, 07:59:49 AM
Quote from: Miss Fixit on October 22, 2010, 07:05:47 AM
Quote from: simms3 on October 22, 2010, 12:37:57 AM
Wow 20 bucks a month. Garages and lots in Atlanta charge 20 bucks for a day for single use people. Some large lots recently opened up that are first come first serve charge 5-8 for a day and are full by 7:15 or 7:30 (and 5 bucks a day still ends up around $100 a month). $20 for an entire month? I know general appreciation has not been that extreme LoL. And going back to the cost of building a garage, 20 bucks won't even service the construction loan.
I started working in downtown Jacksonville in the mid '80s and garage rates were already over $50 per month then. I certainly paid close to $100 per month in the 90s. Never found any $20 garages, and I was always looking for a deal.
You're right - no way can 20 bucks a spot service the construction loan. The only way to get costs that low, or even below $50 per month, would be subsidies by the city.
exactly....while our downtown parking rates seem expensive to some, they are far cheaper than in other (bigger/better) cities....that is a reflection on the value of the property.
So, if downtown all of a sudden became wildly successful, $50-$100/month parking would be a thing of the past.
Leave it to tufsu for a disingenuous comparison that doesn't quite add up. Our parking rates are excessive considering there is an oversupply and no real demand. Its a taxpayer funded monopoly, and there is no actual market reason for the rates here to be as high as they are. Who cares about what would happen if Jacksonville suddenly became SFO or NYC, what does that have to do with the price of tea in china?
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 22, 2010, 08:40:49 AM
Right, but the other half of my plan was that all city-owned garages should also be free. I think this would indeed affect overall parking rates downtown, as the garage owners would actually be forced to compete with alternatives then.
don't you think that would be a bit unfair to the private owners who paid for the land to build their garages? Its kind of the same argument people were using against Obama-care....that the government could set rates so low that private insurers couldn't compete.
Quote from: tufsu1 on October 22, 2010, 08:48:30 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 22, 2010, 08:40:49 AM
Right, but the other half of my plan was that all city-owned garages should also be free. I think this would indeed affect overall parking rates downtown, as the garage owners would actually be forced to compete with alternatives then.
don't you think that would be a bit unfair to the private owners who paid for the land to build their garages? Its kind of the same argument people were using against Obama-care....that the government could set rates so low that private insurers couldn't compete.
So we are supposed to feel bad for the guys whose back room taxpayer-fleecing monopoly killed downtown in the first place? Why? Their policies did nothing but kill off a truly vibrant urban environment, while enriching themselves at taxpayer expense. They've had their run for the past 30+ years, we tried it that way already, and it failed miserably. Time to move on already.
Quote from: simms3 on October 22, 2010, 12:02:04 AM
Also I just drove through Greenville and was completely underwhelmed. It was not imo all that it was hyped up to be and seemed very very small (Don't fall for that Greenville-Spartanburg-Anderson being 1.2 million person CSA crap). And Greenville is not growing nearly as quickly as Jax. It is a completely different city, but I'm glad for them I guess that on-street parking is free. I would have happily paid if I had time and desire to walk around and take pics (because I guess I am used to paying in every downtown or urban submarket I go to).
It too bad you didn’t stop in Greenville and actually experience it a little more. A short drive thru is not much to make a judgment on. Greenville has won many awards for its Downtown and nearly everyone that sees it for the first time is very impressed.
I agree with you that parking alone is not the only problem that has to be tackled in creating a great DT. I also agree that appearances and safety perceptions are very important as well.
Actually, these are areas that Greenville has excelled in.
Parking:
There are 20,000 office workers in DT Greenville and the EASIEST time to find a parking space is M-F 9am-5pm. I recently had a dentist appointment in the middle of the day in the middle of DT, and parked in literally the closest space to the door. It was free for 2 hours, so I paid nothing. Granted, that was an exceptional day, but normally I would only have to walk a block or less.
First you have to understand, FREE Parking does not mean UNLIMITED parking. Time restrictions are enforced from 9-5 M-F. The office workers park in the garages and privately owned lots. The on-street parking is for the customers. No one is going to leave their office to move their car every two hours.
The ONLY parking issues are after 6 pm, particularly on the weekend. DT is the nightlife and entertainment district for the entire metro, with about 150 restaurants and clubs. There is significant retail as well, including a Publix and Staples within 3-4 blocks of Main St. The centerpiece park serves as a magnet for evening strolls, and people-watching.
All restrictions are lifted after 6pm, certain garages are free also. The office workers are gone, but the patrons more than fill the void.
Getting people to experience DT:
During the warm months, music-oriented events are held every Thursday and Friday evening. There are THREE different free guides that are produced at regular intervals with extensive event listings and coverage year round. The largest Festivals and Art events held throughout the year routinely draw 200,000 visitors in 48 hours.
Appearances:
Every morning, M-Sat. you will see city crews either power-washing the sidewalks, planting flowers, blowing leaves, etc. The sidewalks are as clean as a sidewalk can get. Falls Park in the middle Of DT is ALWAYS clean and in bloom year-round. Wedding and Prom pictures are a perpetual sight in this park. There is a DEDICATED privately funded account that pays all the expenses for upkeep in Falls Park.
Homeless:
Facilities serving the Homeless are on the outskirts of DT, not in the core. For the most part they stay in the vicinity of the facilities that serve them. Due to the continuous presence of office workers, retail/restaurant patrons, residents, hotel and other visitors, the homeless are only a tiny fraction of the street crowd. It is not uncommon to spend hours DT, and not see anyone that it obviously homeless.
Here is a different perspective of DT from someone that did more than drive through (click on the red headlines inside the link below)
http://www.usairwaysmag.com/city_profiles/city/greenville/
look I m a general welfare healthcare guy but I don't think we need to extend that parking garages at this point .
Quote from: JeffreyS on October 22, 2010, 09:21:44 AM
look I m a general welfare healthcare guy but I don't think we need to extend that parking garages at this point .
I know, isn't hilarious that some of the same people who decry "obamacare" have no problem with their taxes subsidizing all these backroom deals for privately owned parking garages? What's the difference?
Wow Chris, I already conceded that using the plan that I had forgotten well informed members of MetroJax came up with a while back could be effective if enforced. I admitted I was wrong in that there is a better way, but without that way we would still have to charge for on street.
Now you have made some weird comments that don't at all sound intelligent. I gave Greenville as an example after listing our peer cities and hearing you I believe pick my original list apart so I went down a notch to appease you and now you still have a problem with the list. And all I have to do is open up to page 617 of the 2010 World Almanac which I have on my toilet to see this information for the top 78 MSAs (and now because Greenville was rightfully separated from Spartanburg and Anderson, I just hark back to my memory which tells me it was around a 1% annual growth rate...ours has been around 2%). And for the Greenville lovers I made some positive comments last night on the Greenville thread :)
Chris, some of your recent statements sound just plain odd to me. You might want to revisit them. And not all of the private garages are the backroom operators. Many private garages are owned by separate companies or the building owners. Like I already said and I am surprised nobody picked up on, Charlotte does not have to subsidize its big city garage for Time Warner Center because it is in the heart of the city and can be used on any given day for stuff other than just events at Time Warner. They charge, logically, for that garage, and that is just plain good planning/vision. Good planning/vision will get done what we need done downtown to even warrant people coming and paying. $1-2/hr for a visitor in a garage is a very fair price that would be cheaper than most cities and if the garage is full, then the city can probably actually turn a profit off of that. City garages are not meant for office workers, but in our case due to the nature of our downtown it happens.
Quote from: simms3 on October 22, 2010, 10:44:32 AM
Wow Chris, I already conceded that using the plan that I had forgotten well informed members of MetroJax came up with a while back could be effective if enforced. I admitted I was wrong in that there is a better way, but without that way we would still have to charge for on street.
Now you have made some weird comments that don't at all sound intelligent. I gave Greenville as an example after listing our peer cities and hearing you I believe pick my original list apart so I went down a notch to appease you and now you still have a problem with the list. And all I have to do is open up to page 617 of the 2010 World Almanac which I have on my toilet to see this information for the top 78 MSAs (and now because Greenville was rightfully separated from Spartanburg and Anderson, I just hark back to my memory which tells me it was around a 1% annual growth rate...ours has been around 2%). And for the Greenville lovers I made some positive comments last night on the Greenville thread :)
Chris, some of your recent statements sound just plain odd to me. You might want to revisit them. And not all of the private garages are the backroom operators. Many private garages are owned by separate companies or the building owners. Like I already said and I am surprised nobody picked up on, Charlotte does not have to subsidize its big city garage for Time Warner Center because it is in the heart of the city and can be used on any given day for stuff other than just events at Time Warner. They charge, logically, for that garage, and that is just plain good planning/vision. Good planning/vision will get done what we need done downtown to even warrant people coming and paying. $1-2/hr for a visitor in a garage is a very fair price that would be cheaper than most cities and if the garage is full, then the city can probably actually turn a profit off of that. City garages are not meant for office workers, but in our case due to the nature of our downtown it happens.
I tend to say a lot of stuff that's tongue in cheek, Simms. But I was being serious when I said I'm not sure what the difference is between paying for someone else's healthcare and paying for someone else's parking garage business, neither of which I personally use. What's the difference? Why are certain posters on this site (and I wasn't referring to you) against one and for the other? Contradictory, no? Or is it all OK as long as there's a corporation involved?
As far as the parking thing, you and I are in agreement on that then. I think free parking, maybe with time limits, is a good compromise. There is just no demand downtown to support the current structure, which is so enraging and unnecessarily expensive that most of the major employers and almost all of the small businesses bailed out. We are funding a taxpayer supported monopoly that is accomplishing nothing but enriching a group of 4 or 5 individual people who I won't name, and which has effectively killed the urban core.
The thing is that to corporations the parking in downtown Jax is cheap compared to other cities and these corporations are also in the other cities paying higher parking. Adecco and Life of the South aren't in other cities, but I bet I can dig around and find other companies who have left downtown for "similar reasons" that are paying higher premiums in other cities. The problem then isn't the parking, it's the utility of downtown.
Companies that have always been located on the Southside like Zurich Insurance and now the relocated Deutsche Bank NA (still not nearly as big or important as their NYC office) are typically located in downtowns in other cities. They would probably be downtown here if it would be useful to them, and parking would be the price they pay to have access to that kind of utility. BTW Everbank's corporate offices used to be on Phillips somewhere near JTB, and Rob actually moved the company to a more downtown like location. I think Dupont Trust may have been the same (or were they located in one of those ugly 5 floor white buildings on the Southbank?).
However, its not a DT Jax rates vs. other city's DT rates. It's a DT Jax rate vs Suburban Jax rate and quality of life issue at hand. As long as DT is not a real priority of this community things won't remain the same....they'll get worse. Btw, it won't be a real priority until this city takes that same road as a place like Charlotte or Greenville and actually makes an effort (especially financial) to level the playing field with the burbs, coordinate significant development and public infrastructure projects in the core to create features people expect in an urban scene.
Yes it does. If we look at those cities with vibrant cores and sprawling burbs, we'll find that they all invest significantly in those cores to make them worth living and spending time in. They tend to find a way to get things done instead of making excuses about everything being too expensive or discounting people's opinions, (many of who took a risk and lost their shirts) about things that need to be addressed.
Instead of having yet another abandoned building, it should converted into residential units.
Who's going to pay for the conversions? How many people would purchase to live in the current dead environment? Right now there's no market or money. To jump start anything, some major incentives and tax breaks are going to have to be considered along with a vision to sell people on.
Quote from: stephendare on October 22, 2010, 02:28:54 PM
Quote from: urbaknight on October 22, 2010, 02:19:25 PM
Instead of having yet another abandoned building, it should converted into residential units.
I think this is the ultimate fate of the sky scrapers, and the sooner we realize this, the better.
The internet has made the corporate office building as we presently think of them a thing of the past.
Observation decks and something like the Skyline Cafe in the Barnett building also make for attractive adaptive reuses, at least for certain floors.
I wonder how strong a sell residential units are going to be downtown if businesses keep relocating away from there. Can't walk to work if the company moved to the southside.
Quote from: stephendare on October 22, 2010, 02:28:54 PM
I think this is the ultimate fate of the sky scrapers, and the sooner we realize this, the better.
The internet has made the corporate office building as we presently think of them a thing of the past.
You would be surprised how untrue this actually is. Corporations will always need good office space. So will attorneys and most other professions that currently use office space. Telecommuting and working from home are not what they are made out to be by the media. A bunch of grad students at my school did some work with CBRE and 30 different corporations looking into this very thing, and while the aspects of office space are changing and trends in employment, real estate, etc are very dynamic, the need for physical buildings has not gone away nor will it ever go away.
One of the best RE niches right now is Class A Core and Core Plus office space in tight CBD markets. The demand is increasing, cap rates are falling or staying steady, and vacancies are low. Of course Jacksonville is a small market with one or two core plus buildings and the rest are value added or opportunistic, but in markets like Boston, DC, NYC, Chicago, Houston, SF, Seattle, etc the need for more prime corporate office space is ever increasing even in today's market.
The trends that are really changing are how the office space is and work hours. More people are working flex hours and more office space is open, collaborative, and of course built with energy efficiency in mind. Older office space depended on what era it was built out but usually cubes in the middle and closed off offices on the exterior, or closed off offices with a reception and board room. Individual office spaces are starting to take on characteristics of entire CBDs, where the point is to encourage collaboration, the spread of ideas, transparency, and convenience, as well as sustainability. None of this happens as efficiently or as effectively in the suburbs which is why downtowns will always serve a purpose and why physical office space will serve a purpose.
One of the major tech firms has developed an office concept of space that morphs and takes on different characteristics in order to serve different people within the company and different purposes.
Stephen, what is the earlier redefinition of the skyscraper to which you're referring?
I follow you. Thanks.
Stephen I am sorry but all my personal research, all of the research conducted in my classes at my school and in conjunction with Emory and a few companies, analysts that worked for Marcus (where I interned once), analysts at CB and Cushman, corporate RE departments, Amex (they are a leader in this actually), ULI, etc point to that analysis being very faulty.
Sure buildings evolve and usage of space changes (mixed use has continued to become more and more prevalent), but skyscrapers with office space will never fall by the wayside. At least not in our lifetime.
I think it's just a popular thing for people who really don't know to say that nobody will be using office space in a matter of time because more people are working from home or from the hotel or from the car and the internet makes an office pointless. Just as a downtown serves important functions that can't be replicated in the suburbs corporate office space serves important functions that can't be replicated elsewhere. Also, the trend is for more collaboration and transparency, which can only happen in an open and flexible office space...not at home and not in closed off offices.
Video conferencing and the like can only go so far! At some point there is a need for a face to face and that requires ..........office space somewhere. Any company can be run out of a home (one man style) but at some point more than one person requires more than a home. Most business plans involve a business and to appeal to most working people or a specialty person, does not make using the back of a pickup truck business like! Business plans need to be changed to todays economic conditions and evolve from there!
There will always be a need for office space. Technology is great but there is something to be said about the power of face-to-face interaction. However, if we're talking about DT Jax, there's less of a need to pay more for office space in a hostile environment when hassle free cheaper space in a better surrounding atmosphere is right across the river.
LOL, I have just skimmed the past 185 posts on this thread and I have seen nary a post about the use of mass transit to alleviate the importance of the parking issue regarding the urban core.
It seems to me that most office workers would not need DT parking if they had alternative ways of moving about the urban core and between the urban core and their suburban homes. I would suggest that the parking issues combined with a terrible transit system combine to isolate downtown from the rest of the area contributing to its woes.
Of course, all this is magnified by the many other deficiencies emanating from the urban core, from a lack of amenities (too many to list here - see other MJ threads) to serve potential residents to poorly developed or totally lacking engaging street facings.
stjr, you have a valid point (and i don't know why i didn't think ov it, considering how long i relied on JTA), but it's not so much the actual terribleness ov the transit system as it is the perceived terribleness ov it. while the skyway's an unfunny joke and the bus system leaves a lot to be desired, i've heard more people give perceived safety and comfort issues as reasons for not taking the bus than lack ov convenient stops and schedules--a lot ov people (especially office types) have gotten the idea in their heads that public transportation is for low-class, potentially dangerous people--for what it's worth, i've never had any problems with safety or comfort on JTA buses.
AMEN, Kuroi!