Are JTA's Downtown Amtrak Plans Already Outdated?

[CS Foltz]

But it wasn't exactly like three men smoked cigars at the River Club and singlehandedly destroyed their fiefdom against the wishes of mere mortals sitting below.

Actually from what information I have seen, not 3 but way more than that! Two groups were involved, one in Ortega and one from Riverside and more then likely those you just mentioned! COJ bought the place and I don't believe they used their own money did they? stjr had the poop on that situation and I will try and find it for you and then you can make up your own mind! I can not dispute the "clean up effort" from the community after the fire, but I do take exception for what proved to be a sweetheart deal for a select few and it wasn't Jacksonville!

[fieldafm]

You're talking about Steve Wilson whose group bought the building to develop(I mean, at least know what you're complaining about).

On the other hand, Wilson was also the same person who convinced Rouse to consider building the Jacksonville Landing.

Was it a big victory that the Union Station site was chosen over the proposed riverfront site?  Yes, and it led to the resignation of several members of the now defunct Downtown Development Authority.  Goldbold's compromise was only half accomplished(the Skyway would connect the CC with downtown, but an adjacent hotel was never built)

But, to simply explain away the current convention center site to a few rich dudes controlling the puppet strings is downright wrong... there was a tremendous amount of community support for the restoration of the building.

The type of community involvement that went into supporting the renovation of the old terminal is a VERY rare event in this city.

[Ocklawaha]

Community clean up? yup! I am the one that cut off and removed the "10,000 pound" iron fence and gates all along the end of the stub tracks. Talk about heavy... holy shit the thing weighed tons and the torch took some effort to cut through the iron. I also wanted to remove one of the classic flower pots on top of the bumper blocks at the end of the same stub tracks, at least until I realized they were firmly attached and were just a tad smaller then ME!

I got access to the hidden rooms, catacombs, tunnels, crawl spaces and cleaned out half a hundred ticket daters, tickets, date dies, consist ledgers, ticket sales books, maps, and bound records of the building!

I also had one of the scariest experiences in my life in the old temple of railroads past... Having wound up several floors of total darkness through elevated boiler rooms, shelf spaces, and huge empty ??. Finally having ran out of regular stairs I climbed a "fire stairs" sort of thing, into yet a higher room. There was nothing as I recall up in that room but inches of dust and soot, also having twisted up and down through a dark maze, all of my usually excellent sense of direction was shot to hell. There was a tiny door perhaps 2' x 3' feet, and it was jammed with nearly a centuries worth of paint. I kept kicking at it until it looked somewhat loosed at which time I grabbed the handle and put my shoulder to it with all my might. WHAM! It swung wide open and with my butt on the cement floor and my hand on the handle, my torso was magically suspended in the air right below the dome of the ceiling! I swore it was 6 city blocks to that damn floor as I begged God to get me 100% back inside the door. Today on the waiting room side, above the old ticket counters I can find no trace of that God-awful little door to hell, perhaps they closed it in the reconstruction, or perhaps I've done my 30 seconds in Purgatory.

For what it's worth, above that is a fire ladder on the north wall that leads through a hatch into yet another terrorizing space. This time a full size door, approximately directly above the tiny door below, led right out onto a catwalk above the dome. My God that thing was MAYBE 12" inches wide and each sagging plank is suspended on both ends by a trapeze frame attached to the bottom of the roof. ...And no I didn't walk the walk, one trip to Purgatory is enough to last an eternity.

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

sorry...but I don't count some of those as failures....the Hyatt is still doing ok and the Landing was good for the first 10+ years.

Hyatt is in default on its mortgage, even after a $5 million assist from Hyatt Corp.  And, that's after Adams Mark had to sell out at a fire sale.  I would hardly call that doing "OK".

If the Landing is such a success, why did Rouse dump it at a fire sale?  And, why is Sleiman still moaning and groaning about more support for it, such as parking?

In my mind, success is being commercially viable and profitable without government intervention over the long haul.  Neither of these projects passes that standard anywhere close.

You may not consider these failures but the taxpayers and investors in these projects obviously would.  Tufsu, what is your definition of "non-failure"?  That they are still in business, even if on life support?

[stjr]

Jax can not afford to continue its string of downtown failures:  Convention center, courthouse, Adams Mark/Hyatt, Shipyards, Skyway, one-way streets, the Landing, public transit, demolition of historic fabric, LaVilla, empty lots, non-street friendly buildings, ugly and underutilized parking garages, etc.  (Wow, that's an awfully long list of failures for just the last 25 years or so!).

I'll split this one with y'all TU/STJR... 

+ POSITIVES

1. Courthouse, is done and looks fine [Ock, you are entitled to your opinion. I think many would consider its "looks" a failure.  My biggest beef is it covers seven city blocks instead of one and kills a huge chunk of downtown for generations.  That rates it a bigger failure in my book.]
2. Convention Center, probably saved the Jacksonville Terminal from Atlanta and Birmingham's great stations fate. [Agreed, but it also is a failure for not delivering on the downtown revitalization, tourism, and development that was promised to go with the taxpayer's investment.]
3. Hyatt, yeah so it cost but now its private enterprise along with Omni filling a HUGE need in our city. [See my comments above for Tufsu.]
4. Shipyards, we got it back and frankly couldn't control the market or the bankruptcy of huge developers. [That's one way to look at it.  But, after two developers, many years, and millions of dollars, none of the promised development has materialized.  That's a failure to me and all those investors.]
5. Skyway, Heaviest transit route PPMPD (passengers per mile per day = a standard measure in the industry) [We won't parse this again.  Let's just say almost everyone in Jax considers this a failure by 90+% and hundreds of millions of dollars spent for a few paltry riders.  You and friends are clearly the exception.]
6. Landing, TU is right, it WAS very nice when new and can be again as the market turns and we fixed parking. [Again, see my comments to Tufsu.]

- NEGATIVES [No quibbles here.]

A. One way streets, but perhaps they were a good idea back when Sears, Furchgott's and Iveys anchored DT.
B. Public Transit, shrinking and fraught with bad ideas like a saprogenous organism.
C. Demolition of historic fabric, a city governed by stupefacient lemmings.
D. LaVilla,  illaudable
E. Empty lots, Classic Jacksonville impedimenta
F. Non street-friendly buildings, another impest not unique to Jacksonville
G. Ugly and under utilized parking garages, see all of the above, more improvident actions.

...And the NEGATIVES have it by a "G"

Wow, that was fun! [Yes, once again, fun and games on the MJ boards.  ]

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

JACKSONVILLE? JACKSONVILLE? JACKSONVILLE? JACKSONVILLE? JACKSONVILLE?

* AMTRAK NATIONAL RAILROAD PASSENGER CORPORATION       * JAXPORT RAILROAD       * WATCO
* CSX  TRANSPORTATION           * RAIL LINK          * ST. MARYS RAILROAD
   * RELIABLE RAIL SERVICES            *GENESEE AND WYOMING RAILROAD          *TTX
* NORFOLK SOUTHERN RAILROAD     * FIRST COAST RAILROAD    * FLORIDA EAST COAST RAILWAY           
   * TALLEYRAND TERMINAL RAILROAD        * PROGRESS RAIL SERVICES         * RAIL AMERICA

One thing is a certainty, we are in TOTAL agreement that Jacksonville cannot fumble the railroad/Amtrak/commuter rail/Jacksonville Terminal/Streetcar ball again.

To have allowed Florida's Amtrak "rescue" to shrivel while state after state has added miles and trains is absolutely unacceptable and dead wrong. Why blame us for Florida's failure? Simple, for those that do not understand rail, in Florida, Jacksonville = rail, not just any rail, but geographically controls the entire industry. As Jacksonville goes - so goes rail in Florida. Had we been awake at the throttle rather then burying our problems under tons of cement, Florida's rail network would resemble California's, and we would be the epicenter of activity.

Is anyone from the Chambers Industrial Development or Commerce Development task forces posting here? Where are they when we could be adding not just a station, but hundreds of jobs, maybe even thousands. Do they understand what is a stake here? Realize that for the first time in half a century the railcar and streetcar/light rail industries are posting sales around the globe in the billions of dollars. So what? Anyone recall West Jacksonville Shops of the old Seaboard-SCL-Family lines-CSX? The brake shops in Green Cove Springs? The huge TTX complex downtown? The WATCO rail system car shops on Kings? The Shipyards and metal works from Palatka to Mayport? Here we have a major global industry with a BUY AMERICAN mandate, thousands of foreign players who would love to crack the US Market, and we have one of the largest and most experienced railroad work forces on earth! More? You bet! Amtrak currently operates a tiny haphazard shop they inherited from the original Auto-Train Corp in Sanford, and a large repair shop in Hialeah while Springfield, Honeymoon and West Jax railroad yards sit largely abandoned... DO THE MATH JACKSONVILLE! If Amtrak trains, Commuter trains, streetcars, LRV's, Monorails, all meet downtown at Jacksonville Terminal, how much sense does it make for us to be one of the nations premiere railroad shop relocation sites? Car Builders? Locomotive Builders? Streetcar and LRV builders? Monorail and PRT builders? Bus and Transit Vehicle Builders? How many European, Oriental or American builders would love to have a presence not only within the BUY AMERICAN boarders but also in the land of Sunshine and Mickey and Experience? Talk to me people, need a volunteer to help you recruit and change the face of our City, Transportation and Port? I stand ready to fire this up right NOW.

For Sale: Sunny Shop Location with hundreds of highly specialized and skilled workers. Dozens of former railroad yards, sidings and trackside sites available. NO SNOW. On the Atlantic Coast with beautiful beaches, 2 hours from Walt Disney World and Cape Canaveral. World Port. 4 trunk line railroads and 5 area shortlines or terminal companies with over 60 trains daily. Half way between Atlanta and Miami almost to the mile. Largest Park System in America. Only Eastern Sea Port due south of Cincinnati, Detroit and west of Pittsburgh and Washington DC., only Florida City with a direct mainline to the Pacific Coast. Dozens of experienced machine shops, Sheet Metal, Ship and Fitting manufacturers. Third largest City on the East Coast and largest in land area in the USA assuring you your choice of sites. Professional Sports and International Airport. YOUR HOME ON AMERICAN RAILS - CONTACT XXX JACKSONVILLE DEVELOPMENT. 

COME ON JACKSONVILLE! TIME TO PULL YOUR HEAD OUT!

OCKLAWAHA

[ricker]

Remember what and how Jacksonville got the Prime Osburn to begin with!

While it's true that there were two proposals for where to put the convention center(one being riverfront, which Goldbold has been on record as regretting to this day), and while Herb Peyton et al advocated for the Jax Terminal and Preston Haskell(who owned the Robert Myer/City Center at the time) et al(namely downtown business owners) advocated for the riverfront location... ultimately there was a GROUNDSWELL of community support for the Jax Terminal.  Ordinary citizens came out and volunteered to clean up the mess from the Terminal's massive fire and ordinary citizens held events/parties/fundraisers supporting its reconstruction.  It was a time where the type of community involvement to save the old Terminal was not seen again until NFL Now sold 10k club seats to revive Jacksonville's NFL expansion hopes 20 years later.

In hindsight, it saved a worthy historic building... but isolated and ultimately hurt the convention business in Jax.

But it wasn't exactly like three men smoked cigars at the River Club and singlehandedly destroyed their fiefdom against the wishes of mere mortals sitting below.




uhhhhm yeah.
it was.
just exactly like that.
only a lot.

[ricker]

I drive in the surrounds of DT often snapping a few shots of scarcely traveled blocks at what somremay consider an odd hour.
I love this place.
Some of the infill is a wee bit drab.
new city hall and courthouse. not finished - but the rendreings are unfortunately touched with a dumbed down homogeny.
Federal Courthouse mini tower. tres chic.
but...the rural condition of the park and ride lots between TUPAC and the Terminal, coupled with the unused Park View Inn do a lot to wound our eyes.
If we want to see the implementation of any ideas put forth by so many here, we will have to convene upon council chambers as a routine and each fill out our 3 minute speaker cards and quit cyber rallying.
Butts in seats until council has no choice but to get these items on their radar.

[tufsu1]

If the Landing is such a success, why did Rouse dump it at a fire sale?  And, why is Sleiman still moaning and groaning about more support for it, such as parking?

well the main reason is that the Rouse Company wasn't so interested in festival marketplaces after James Rouse left the company....but they had even less incentive to keep some of them after he died.

btw, the Rouse Company no longer exists....was bought/merged with General Properties, who is now in bankruptcy....so, using your thought process, I guess their suburban malls weren't so successful either!

[ricker]

tou che

answer to the question in this thread:
IF incomplete, then YES outdated and obsolete and outmoded.

To much is unknown to much of the public soon to be affected by the "too late to do anything about it" autonomy of the JTA.

[spuwho]

Poor planning is not a Jacksonville exclusive.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-metra-upnorth-city-riders-092620100925,0,6435071.story

Chicago's Metra is replacing several 113 year old bridges on the UP North line. They don't support the weight of the new commuter rail engines and are getting hard to maintain.

Poor planning? In 1977, previous owner Chicago & Northwestern had the 3rd rail line removed along the ROW. Metra is not building new bridges that support a restoration of that 3rd rail line. This is one of the more busiest commuter rail lines, some stations see 70 trains daily. (The UP West, IC Electric, BNSF Aurora line all have 3 tracks)

Only 2 rail lines, bridge reconstruction can only mean one thing....only 1 line is available at a time during the construction. Metra changes the schedules and retasks the trains along the route. What happens? Suburban trains fill up and leave no room for the stations between Evanston and downtown.

They change the schedules yet again, yep, you guessed it, now the City of Evanston is up in arms now.

Congestion of having inbound and outbound routes routed through a single track just doesn't work. And it is all because they thought they could "get by" on one track, when 2 were clearly needed.

The outlook towards Jacksonville Terminal, Amtrak, Commuter Rail and such should take the lessons learned from the other more larger cities when it comes to rail planning. Don't shortchange yourself when it comes to properly servicing the needs of the future. Don't be afraid to admit your mistakes and make the necessary changes to do it "right".

[ricker]

can I get a witness?!?
spuwho, I take it you [quite unfortunately for us all] DON'T work for the JTA or the FDOT?
you simply make too much sense.

[CS Foltz]

ricker.............more than happy to witness! Biggest problem with JTA is a lack of planning, vision and some idea on how to fund anything...........from simple bus shelters (short only 1700 plus) to planning ahead just 10 years down the road! BRT is not the panacea that they seem to think it is!

[Ocklawaha]

Perhaps we should lay out a floor plan for the original AS-BUILT station and see which one we like the best? As for the old "Negro waiting room" re-brand it as a upscale micro-mall with a whimsical name that also salutes it's heritage... "Ebony Mall" or some such. Any more ideas?

OCKLAWAHA

[spuwho]

Poor planning is not a Jacksonville exclusive.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-metra-upnorth-city-riders-092620100925,0,6435071.story

Chicago's Metra is replacing several 113 year old bridges on the UP North line. They don't support the weight of the new commuter rail engines and are getting hard to maintain.

Poor planning? In 1977, previous owner Chicago & Northwestern had the 3rd rail line removed along the ROW. Metra is not building new bridges that support a restoration of that 3rd rail line. This is one of the more busiest commuter rail lines, some stations see 70 trains daily. (The UP West, IC Electric, BNSF Aurora line all have 3 tracks)

Only 2 rail lines, bridge reconstruction can only mean one thing....only 1 line is available at a time during the construction. Metra changes the schedules and retasks the trains along the route. What happens? Suburban trains fill up and leave no room for the stations between Evanston and downtown.

They change the schedules yet again, yep, you guessed it, now the City of Evanston is up in arms now.

Congestion of having inbound and outbound routes routed through a single track just doesn't work. And it is all because they thought they could "get by" on one track, when 2 were clearly needed.

The outlook towards Jacksonville Terminal, Amtrak, Commuter Rail and such should take the lessons learned from the other more larger cities when it comes to rail planning. Don't shortchange yourself when it comes to properly servicing the needs of the future. Don't be afraid to admit your mistakes and make the necessary changes to do it "right".

Hey guess what? Chicago Metra admitted their mistake and are going retask the project next spring.

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/09/metra-postpones-bridge-work-trains-resume-normal-schedule.html

A clear example of how to conduct yourself as a public transit agency, accountable and transparent. I give them credit, they admitted it and came clean and did the right thing. A good example to follow in Jacksonville.