Are JTA's Downtown Amtrak Plans Already Outdated?

[tufsu1]

Just as a note....the plans shown were done for FDOT, not JTA....and DMJM Harris has since merged with (or gobbled up by) AECOM

[Ocklawaha]

Just as a note....the plans shown were done for FDOT, not JTA....and DMJM Harris has since merged with (or gobbled up by) AECOM

Either way it's the State of Florida fumbling the works again when it comes to rail. TU I just don't think they understand rail at all, hence trains to airports rather then downtown's, "train hubs", trains where there are no tracks, and my favorite, trains from Miami-Orlando-Gainesville- LAKE CITY! Really if this is the best the consultants can come up with they need to be fired and we need a chunk of money back. As you know, there are very few true railroad planners out there, most wear other hats 90% of the time. Everything they have done thus far needs recense...


OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Either way it's the State of Florida fumbling the works again when it comes to rail. TU I just don't think they understand rail at all, hence trains to airports rather then downtown's, "train hubs", trains where there are no tracks, and my favorite, trains from Miami-Orlando-Gainesville- LAKE CITY! Really if this is the best the consultants can come up with they need to be fired and we need a chunk of money back. As you know, there are very few true railroad planners out there, most wear other hats 90% of the time.

Too true Ock! This so-called plan shows it! Don't even get me started about HSR in Ratville!

[Ocklawaha]

We agree CS!


In this photo from front to back are:
double slip switch
2 switches standard
a double cross-over
1 switch standard

BTW, the tiny red circles on my track plan represent single and double slip switches. A normal switch splits a line into two. A slip switch does the same PLUS serves as a cross-over from track to track. The "slip" being left, right, or double so rather then crossing, one can move across and veer in any of two directions, this makes one switch do the work of up to four. But the quiz kids at FDOT's local consultants might not even know that.


OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Ock..........I take exception to the "quiz kid" label............if that be the case, they would be smart enough to know what they don't know! "Whiz kid" would indicate they already have all of the answers, which shows with their master plan of horse crud! I think one of my grandkids could do better and she is just learning how to write her name!

[stjr]

As we have noted on previous MJ threads on the intermodal center, the entire facility is poorly designed, both functionally and aesthetically.  The plans need to be trashed and some visionary and smarter people need to be brought in to start over.  Also, this center needs to be worked out with urban planners, not just head-in-the-book transportation engineering geeks who are clueless about how the world really works.

Jax can not afford to continue its string of downtown failures:  Convention center, courthouse, Adams Mark/Hyatt, Shipyards, Skyway, one-way streets, the Landing, public transit, demolition of historic fabric, LaVilla, empty lots, non-street friendly buildings, ugly and underutilized parking garages, etc.  (Wow, that's an awfully long list of failures for just the last 25 years or so!).

[tufsu1]

sorry...but I don't count some of those as failures....the Hyatt is still doing ok and the Landing was good for the first 10+ years.

[Ocklawaha]

http://www.youtube.com/v/ulsQ50IUahU?fs=1&hl=en_US&rel=0&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca&border=1
Want to REALLY have some fun? This is Meridian Mississippi and the station facilities in this short clip is MUCH larger then FDOT-JTA plan for Jacksonville! All of this for a single train each way daily.

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

Jax can not afford to continue its string of downtown failures:  Convention center, courthouse, Adams Mark/Hyatt, Shipyards, Skyway, one-way streets, the Landing, public transit, demolition of historic fabric, LaVilla, empty lots, non-street friendly buildings, ugly and underutilized parking garages, etc.  (Wow, that's an awfully long list of failures for just the last 25 years or so!).

I'll split this one with y'all TU/STJR...  

+ POSITIVES

1. Courthouse, is done and looks fine
2. Convention Center, probably saved the Jacksonville Terminal from Atlanta and Birmingham's great stations fate.
3. Hyatt, yeah so it cost but now its private enterprise along with Omni filling a HUGE need in our city.
4. Shipyards, we got it back and frankly couldn't control the market or the bankruptcy of huge developers.
5. Skyway, Heaviest transit route PPMPD (passengers per mile per day = a standard measure in the industry)
6. Landing, TU is right, it WAS very nice when new and can be again as the market turns and we fixed parking.

- NEGATIVES

A. One way streets, but perhaps they were a good idea back when Sears, Furchgott's and Iveys anchored DT.
B. Public Transit, shrinking and fraught with bad ideas like a saprogenous organism.
C. Demolition of historic fabric, a city governed by stupefacient lemmings.
D. LaVilla,  illaudable
E. Empty lots, Classic Jacksonville impedimenta
F. Non street-friendly buildings, another impest not unique to Jacksonville
G. Ugly and under utilized parking garages, see all of the above, more improvident actions.

...And the NEGATIVES have it by a "G"

Wow, that was fun!

OCKLAWAHA

[Keith-N-Jax]

The Landing is still the place to be for good night dinner on the river front. We should glad we have it along with the Hyatt.

[ChriswUfGator]

As we have noted on previous MJ threads on the intermodal center, the entire facility is poorly designed, both functionally and aesthetically.  The plans need to be trashed and some visionary and smarter people need to be brought in to start over.  Also, this center needs to be worked out with urban planners, not just head-in-the-book transportation engineering geeks who are clueless about how the world really works.

The thing that galls me is that Jacksonville is uniquely well-positioned for rail, but we're still blowing it. We could have real functional rail here for pretty much no money, which is unique. All they have to do is cancel the paltry handful of tiny events on the books for our "convention center" and spend a relatively small amount of money to take down the cheesy convention area and reopen the damned rail station.

But for some reason, all these plans always include a bunch of expensive and unnecessary new construction that winds up leaving us with less than what was already there, and inflates the project cost to the point that people will become upset over it and the whole idea may be threatened by the resulting lack of support. I really am starting to believe they're either intentionally trying to kill it, or else they're looking for any excuse to load up on more Gate Precast Concrete.

[JeffreyS]

+1

[CS Foltz]

Nifty Fifty won't change unless they get their cut off of the top! Remember what and how Jacksonville got the Prime Osburn to begin with! Taking down the cheesy convention area would not take much .....I would be willing to "volunteer" to do so, which would save them some more money!  chris +2

[tufsu1]

yay Nifty Fifty!

[fieldafm]

Remember what and how Jacksonville got the Prime Osburn to begin with!

While it's true that there were two proposals for where to put the convention center(one being riverfront, which Goldbold has been on record as regretting to this day), and while Herb Peyton et al advocated for the Jax Terminal and Preston Haskell(who owned the Robert Myer/City Center at the time) et al(namely downtown business owners) advocated for the riverfront location... ultimately there was a GROUNDSWELL of community support for the Jax Terminal.  Ordinary citizens came out and volunteered to clean up the mess from the Terminal's massive fire and ordinary citizens held events/parties/fundraisers supporting its reconstruction.  It was a time where the type of community involvement to save the old Terminal was not seen again until NFL Now sold 10k club seats to revive Jacksonville's NFL expansion hopes 20 years later.

In hindsight, it saved a worthy historic building... but isolated and ultimately hurt the convention business in Jax.

But it wasn't exactly like three men smoked cigars at the River Club and singlehandedly destroyed their fiefdom against the wishes of mere mortals sitting below.