Elements of Urbanism: Kansas City

[finehoe]

I was being hyperbolic.  Of course differences exist once you get out of downtown.  But that just underlines my point.  Go back and look at most of the "renovated downtown urban entertainment districts" that have been featured in the various photo-essays on MJ.  Can anybody really tell the difference from one to another?  If someone blindfolded you and then dropped you into the Power & Light District or 4th Street Live or The District or Laclede's Landing or Over-the-Rhine's, etc. etc. could you tell the difference?  Is this what we want for our own DT?

[thelakelander]

Over-The-Rhine would stand out because it's a uniquely preserved 19th century neighborhood with an organically grown nightlife component.  The others are entertainment oriented shopping centers that are owned by a single company. I get your point, but it really comes down to fake vs organic. One follows the ideology for shopping mall development (thus the chains needed to make the numbers work) and the other forms naturally by a number of urban pioneers opening complementing uses in close proximity of each other. The later typically happens outside of DTs because cheaper land, buildings and lease rates in districts that are just as walkable are available and more feasible for local businesses to open in.

[Rocshaboc]

This is why Jax gets no respect and joked on by national media. I used to live in KC back the mid 80's when I was 10years old. We used to take Greyhound from KC to Jax. I remember how awesome their Greyhound station so nice and big. We come to Jax and see that crap we have now. My eyes used to light up when went downtown KC. Crown Center was lit up. We're so behind other similar, major cities and we're known for nothing. We need to be known for something good, something special. Why can't they build a mini amusement park at the Shipyards? This connected to East Bay Street will jump start alot of activity down there. I read in Jaxdaily that the StJohns towncenter developer was in talks with mayor about a amusement park there. Why is that so hard to get done around here? Is it the major, city council. I don't know man. I love this town but I'm sick of the slothfulness

[finehoe]

The later typically happens outside of DTs because cheaper land, buildings and lease rates in districts that are just as walkable are available and more feasible for local businesses to open in.

But it's happening in our DT on East Bay St. and instead of encouraging it and doing everything it can to help it along, our city squanders it resources worrying about which same-old, same-old chain it can get to open in the Landing.

[fieldafm]

Vibrant isolated DTs aren't what makes walkable cities unique and inviting places to be.  It's the ability of having seamless connectivity and synergy between several distinct walkable districts that combine to form one vibrant large scale unique urban product.  For both Jacksonville and KC, the unique pieces are there.  The question to me is how do you pull them together to make that seamless walkable connection?

I think Im finally beginning to FULLY understand this point.  I had somewhat of a revelation on Saturday driving from my house, to the Landing to pick up 100 wings from Hooters, then to Kernan to a buddy of mine's house to watch the Jags game.

Our DT really is cutoff from every surrounding urban neighborhood... and this was done so intentionally, not organically or by any natural borders. Hence there is a lot of dead space seperating these neighborhoods and no one has an incentive to cross the no man's land.

[thelakelander]

The later typically happens outside of DTs because cheaper land, buildings and lease rates in districts that are just as walkable are available and more feasible for local businesses to open in.

But it's happening in our DT on East Bay St. and instead of encouraging it and doing everything it can to help it along, our city squanders it resources worrying about which same-old, same-old chain it can get to open in the Landing.

It's only happening because of the drastic drop in real estate values, which is a great side effect of the economic bust.  These organic uses are now feasible start ups.  A couple of years ago, they were not. Nevertheless, I don't think the city is discouraging this.  In fact, they've spent millions to facilitate it in terms of public infrastructure upgrades.

[thelakelander]

Vibrant isolated DTs aren't what makes walkable cities unique and inviting places to be.  It's the ability of having seamless connectivity and synergy between several distinct walkable districts that combine to form one vibrant large scale unique urban product.  For both Jacksonville and KC, the unique pieces are there.  The question to me is how do you pull them together to make that seamless walkable connection?

I think Im finally beginning to FULLY understand this point.  I had somewhat of a revelation on Saturday driving from my house, to the Landing to pick up 100 wings from Hooters, then to Kernan to a buddy of mine's house to watch the Jags game.

Our DT really is cutoff from every surrounding urban neighborhood... and this was done so intentionally, not organically or by any natural borders. Hence there is a lot of dead space seperating these neighborhoods and no one has an incentive to cross the no man's land.

This is one of the major reasons I've jumped on the fixed mass transit bandwagon.  Projects like streetcars and LRT have a strong history in this country of spurring the type of sustainable development needed to not only help revitalize DT but also spur the needed infill in dead zones like Brooklyn, LaVilla, the Cathedral, Sports Districts and other economically challenged neighborhoods. 

During my visit to KC, their MAX (BRT) is a pretty nice bus line.  However, it was clear that it has not stimulated the type of development that new american streetcar lines have along their corridors in its five years of operation.  I would hate to see Jacksonville and JTA repeat the same mistake by not looking at the entire picture when it comes to making mass transit investments.  It really is about a lot more than moving mass transit riders from point A to B.  It's a form of "community building".

[finehoe]

It really is about a lot more than moving mass transit riders from point A to B.  It's a form of "community building".

Amen to that.

[Ocklawaha]

I think we have discovered the secret of a truly great downtown!

A really cool, old fashioned.

WESTERN AUTO STORE

But of course darling, we blew our up!

Oh well, at least we can take comfort in the fact that KC has a transit agency and government transit policy worse then ours.


OCKLAWAHA

[fieldafm]

I think we have discovered the secret of a truly great downtown!

A really cool, old fashioned.

WESTERN AUTO STORE

But of course darling, we blew our up!

Oh well, at least we can take comfort in the fact that KC has a transit agency and government transit policy worse then ours.


OCKLAWAHA

LOL, b/c a Western Auto has worked SO well for Starke's DT resurgence!

[outofhere]

I was just in Nashville and spent an evening in the downtown, which was jumping.  And w/in shouting distance of the downtown there was activity in The Gulch area where lofts and apts are available along w/ commercial stuff. It has taken awhile but Nville has figured out what people want in a downtown and has focused on meeting that need. The city has virtually no mass transit BTW and we walked about 5 blocks from the parking garage to the restaurant but there was some much to look at that it didn't seem like much of a walk.

[thelakelander]

They do have the Music City Star commuter rail line.  Nashville has done a great job of integrating and clustering a variety of pedestrian friendly uses within a compact setting in downtown over the last couple of decades.  If they could get the mass transit equation worked out, that scene would advance to another level if tied together (streetcar or LRT perhaps?) with spots like East Nashville, Hillsboro Village, Vanderbilt and West End.

You can use this link to access several images from an article we did on urban Nashville last year:

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-jun-elements-of-urbanism-nashville

[fieldafm]

Nashville is a lot like Orlando's DT.  Everything is clustered together within about a 10-12 block radius and very pedestrian friendly.

[wordofmouse]

I guess you can run comparisons all day long with similar aspects of any other city and find ways to give examples witch might work for downtown Jacksonville.  For awhile the post on your blog supported the need for a parking garage for the Landing, well you got it and now we shall see. The Prime Osborne Ctr. was originally planned with a Hotel and expansion of the Downtown footprint. Provide businesses with a 20yr or more property tax avoidance and you can expect to have multiple inquires competing for existing space or new developments. Gear it to housing and corporate office units.

[thelakelander]

Just to set the record straight, the support on this site was for the establishment of dedicated parking through better utilization of an existing parking lot.  That is completely different from the idea of supporting the construction of a new parking garage.  Have they even closed on the property yet?  With that said, give it six months after the property is in ownership, before passing judgement on whether dedicated parking improves the Landing's chances on attracting more tenants.  Business deals don't happen overnight you know.