ATTEND JTA's Plan To KILL RAIL, 4-7 MON.

[coredumped]

Good workshop tonight.  I learned several interesting tidbits about JTA's BRT plans. Will elaborate later.

I look forward to it! Thanks for attending for those of us who couldn't.

[CS Foltz]

Hope so lake! Got higher priority things going on and could not make it! tufsu........I know all about the 24 "Historic flavored" shelters going in on the BRT route for downtown! I know about the removed shelters supposedly being refurbished for placement somewhere else in the system (with JTA's propensity for cooking their numbers......will believe it when I see it and not before! Can you blame me?) I know all about JTA working on the private/public investment in connection for advertising/sponsorship! So I have to ask.............with the number of YEARS that JTA has been in operation, it never occurred to anyone there to do something about shelters? It just proves a point I made long ago........bus's are not for JTA since they do not ride them nor do they care about the people who do ride them. JTA is interested in the concrete aspect only.....more roads equals more bus's and cars! This is not a long view that any prudent person could sustain which is why I say JTA cares not for the public! They have no problem using Federal money to enhance their world......once again, yours and my tax dollars hard at work to sustain their little world and lets not forget about the "subsidizes" we the taxpayers pay out for them to continue to operate!

[tufsu1]

tufsu........I know all about the 24 "Historic flavored" shelters going in on the BRT route for downtown!

obviously not, because the 24 shelters are going on the non-BRT route streets

[thelakelander]

Here are a few things I heard tonight.

1. This 11 mile BRT corridor will have five stops and is anticipated to cost around $25 million.

2. Park and Ride lots will be constructed at JTB and Bowden.  A Kiss and Ride will be constructed at Avenues Walk.

3. Buses will run every 10-15 minutes down Philips.  They claimed this service would be different from commuter rail because that system would run every 30-60 minutes.  Thus, they see having systems paralleling each other as no problem.

4. JTA plans to move forward with a study on BRT paralleling the CSX A line in 2011 and one to Regency in 2012.

5. They would like to have the Philips BRT line completed by 2014.

6. 30-40% of the $25 million will pay for new buses.  40% will pay for stations (shelters) with real time information.  The rest will go for traffic signals and queue jumps.

Now for the problems.

I asked why can't they take an existing bus and run it down Philips every 10 minutes now instead of needing to spend $25 million up front. I was told because JTA could not afford to do pay with BRT improvements without federal dollars.

Obviously, after seeing the BRT cost breakdowns, I don't agree with this answer.  Getting down to the basics, you can immediately eliminate up to 40% of the capital costs by using existing buses instead of buying new ones.  Second, lets be real.  Philips is not a congested corridor and traffic isn't really increasing on this facility.  Thus, there is no immediate need to invest in queue jumps and traffic signal priority infrastructure.  So, you can deduct another 20% in costs right there.  Last, a bus line that has a bus coming every ten minutes really doesn't need real time information.  Scrap that and provide 10 basic shelters at the five proposed stops.  Even if you purchase shelters priced at $40k/a piece, that only adds up to $400k.  There would be significant savings here by going no frills instead of paying for bells and whistles, which amount to 40% of the proposed BRT costs.

Last but not least, Stephendare exposed the fact that no one really lives or works on Philips.  Thus, there should be information on how buses will connect into this corridor to take riders to their final destination.  Unfortunately, JTA hasn't figured that out yet.  So after spending $25 million and possibly screwing up the chances of landing federal money for the parallel commuter rail corridor, a bus could drop you off along Philips every 10 minutes but you may be waiting for 45 minutes to an hour for the connecting bus to get you to your final destination.

We've got our work cut out for us.  

[stjr]

JTA is developing quite the expertise in building riderless transit systems built with "we can't resist taking" Federal funds.  Forget the ongoing, less than fully Federally-subsidized costs of operations.  At least we finally have found what they are experts at. 

I said BRT was shaping up as a Skyway on rubber tires.  Soon, Ock and others, as with the Skyway, originally opposed, will be forced into saying we invested this much, if only we can expand it for millions more so it will work as planned and to salvage the original investment.  Deja vu.  Uh huh.

[9a is my backyard]

Where did this idea originate from?  As previously stated, no one really lives/works along the Philips Hwy corridor.  Is it just a reaction to Federal funds being available?  If so, that's obviously a TERRIBLE reason to spend/waste $25Mil.  There doesn't seem to be much justification for even Lake's far less expensive alternative given that there doesn't seem to be much demand for service in the area (let alone service with 10-15 minute headways!).  I swear, it's almost impossible for me to go from Riverside to the Southside in a reasonable about of time at a reasonable time for work, but we can provide regular service to an area that doesn't have much demand??  JTA, I WANT to use your service...please make it easy for me to do so!!!  I'll even settle for 'easier'

[thelakelander]

Other than going after federal dollars, this does not have much in common with the skyway. This is a plan to put a number of existing bus routes on Philips before branching out to various Southside destinations, along with a single line that will run every 10 minutes straight down the corridor.  

They already modify the system at least three times a year.  There is no logical reason why service can't be modified along this corridor, without the fluff or federal money.  The real money being spent will be for additional features like signal priority, real time information, new buses and queue jumps.  While all these things are nice, they aren't needed to run a reliable service.  Especially on a corridor that does not back up or directly serve walkable destinations.  Since the bus is going to struggle to attract choice riders and won't spur needed economic development, why spend more money on it than neccessary?  

[stjr]

JTA is developing quite the expertise in building riderless transit systems built with "we can't resist taking" Federal funds.  Forget the ongoing, less than fully Federally-subsidized costs of operations.  At least we finally have found what they are experts at.  

I said BRT was shaping up as a Skyway on rubber tires.  Soon, Ock and others, as with the Skyway, originally opposed, will be forced into saying we invested this much, if only we can expand it for millions more so it will work as planned and to salvage the original investment.  Deja vu.  Uh huh.

Is this an attempt to be an island of One, STJR.

LOL, Stephen.  Hardly think I am an island of one when it comes to the Skyway except in your own mind.  But that's OK since I know you have a fertile imagination.  

If you can figure out how to build  a cheaper or more funtional transit bridge over the St John's, by all means, do let everyone know.

Not sure what this has to do with my comment here but I will repeat it has been previously pointed out that the Acosta and Main Street Bridges have the potential to carry buses and streetcars.  Certainly, buses would be cheaper than the Skyway.  But, I expect you to look that over since it doesn't dovetail with your opinions.

I was never opposed to the Skyway, am still not opposed to the skyway, and don't plan on being opposed to it in the future.

Who said anything about what you did or didn't oppose, Stephen.  I said "Ock and others".  Why do you think that automatically includes you?  In the end, the past is the past and I was only showing the possible repetition of JTA's incompetence.  Why must everything I post be attributed by you to you, Stephen?

The BRT however, we agree on, and can work together towards making sure that the best choices are made.  I believe it to be rail.

Not sure I find much redeeming about BRT based on Ock and Lake's post but I do agree that commuter and streetcar rail are worthwhile.  I will also support expanded bus service if done competently but I have yet to see a convincing plan.

I am not sure exactly what mass transit you are for, since most of your posts concern corruption and your opposition to the skyway, rather than which system you would like to see implemented, but I hope that we are all on the same page regarding support of rail.

I have said a thousand times to you I support mass transit rail of various kinds and the bus system done right.  Just as above.  But, again, you twist what I write to suit your own intentions.

Stephen, are you a werewolf?  At night, your character is transformed.  

[thelakelander]

Where did this idea originate from?  As previously stated, no one really lives/works along the Philips Hwy corridor.  Is it just a reaction to Federal funds being available?  If so, that's obviously a TERRIBLE reason to spend/waste $25Mil.  There doesn't seem to be much justification for even Lake's far less expensive alternative given that there doesn't seem to be much demand for service in the area (let alone service with 10-15 minute headways!).

It sounded like getting federal money was a major focus.  We were told headways had to be something like 10-15 minutes to qualify as "BRT."  Imo, this whole thing needs to be repackaged.  The idea, in and of itself is not a bad one (when developed in the proper context) but it seems like they are not designing a future integrated transit system from a holistic point of view.

[thelakelander]

If there is an area on the Southside that needs a shot in the arm, Philips is it.  No bus service is going to do that.  Rail will but you're going to damage those chances by adding transit services that duplicate corridors and compete for riders.  Why blow your wad and opportunity on a substandard alternative that will put our community a couple of more decades behind our progressive peers?   

[Ocklawaha]

After hearing the JTA wizards lay out their BRT plan again, I have just one thought about those at the top that are pushing this.

"IGNORANT to the 25 power..."

Those at tonight's presentation were about 8 dogs short of a dog and pony show, and they fell into two broad category's:

Those who really believe that they have been told the secret future of mass transit and truly believe that JTA will lead Jacksonville into the light!

Those who don't believe a single dot, dash or tittle of the company line, think it's all BULL SHIT, and whisper it out of the corner of their mouths while begging not to be exposed! (BTW we are not in the business of fingering the honest friends of sensible transit working behind the scenes to bring some modicum of sanity to JTA, your secret is safe with MJ).

The route they have chosen is probably the worst of the 4 or so possible they could have picked.

The FTA will not consider this project if the frequency is maintained by various Southside bus routes. Every bus in the 15 minute headways must be the branded BRT buses. This means that if the BRT comes past every 15 minutes, and another 12 buses per hour use the route to come and go from their regular routes, we can ONLY count and thus fund the every 15 minute BRT branded buses. Where this gets crazier is these BRT super-buses will stay on the BRT route, meaning Downtown to Avenues Mall via Philips Highway every 15 minutes. Just think about all the stellar stops and locations that will pack out these buses. Imagine you will be able to leave downtown as often as every 10 minutes during rush hour and every 15 minutes during regular hours on "THE BIG RED BUS," (or some other super color... just so it's not PURPLE). With the BRT you will be moved at rocket speed flipping stop lights, jumping ques, and owning the roadway arriving at your transfer station (or whorehouse - this IS Philips Highway for God's sake) so you can wait 45 minutes for your connection.

"By Grabthar's hammer, oh what a savings..."

But they tell us, we'll make huge gains in economic activity (see whorehouse above) all along Philips.

The BRT promises to significantly reduce air pollution (as seen in this study from Sydney AU)

We'll get the FTA'S blessing because they "understand" that funding parallel bus and rail routes make sense since buses attract a completely different category of riders. WTF?

With stylish new bus stops BRT ridership will be very heavy, maybe as much as 60,000 per week, or 8,500 passengers daily... or were those the numbers they promised for our ill fated Automated Skyway Express? Trust us... yeah right...

Someday there might be a community bus that will circulate from the BRT in the Powers Avenue/St. Augustine Road/Lakewood area, and the Southpoint office area, and until then you might have to seek alternative transportation as seen is this photo.

This isn't all by any stretch but it ought to get our discussion rolling WITH A SMILE...

[stjr]

Other than going after federal dollars, this does not have much in common with the skyway.

Since the bus is going to struggle to attract choice riders and won't spur needed economic development, why spend more money on it than neccessary?  

Lake, how can you post the comments and then say there are no parallels with the handling of the Skyway?

The Skyway was a pork barrel project to grab federal money.  BRT appears from your own post to be the same.

The Skyway was touted as promoting economic development but hasn't.  You just said the same about BRT.

The Skyway struggles to attract riders.  You just said the same about BRT.

The Skyway lacks destinations people desire.  You, Ock, and others have said the same about BRT on Philips Highway.

The Skyway lacks connectivity.  You have said there is no connection between BRT and cross connecting rail or bus routes.

The Skyway is a waste of money vs. streetcars.  You just opined that BRT is spending unnecessary money.

The Skyway damaged the advent of rail transit in Jax.  Now you say BRT may do the same.

JTA has mismanaged the Skyway and is lining up to do the same with BRT per you and Ock.

Dunno about you, but I see lots in common.

[stjr]

The bus system doesnt work.

I have always supported this contention.  Lack of good routes and frequencies.  Poor service and poor promotion to boot.  You have said as much and I fully agree.

So you are for buses, possibly trolleys.  Its good to know what you are for, finally.

No "finally". You just chose to ignore my posts or twist them in your mind.  I have also supported commuter rail and improvement to pedestrian and bike transit.  Basically, I am only against the Skyway and, now, the BRT based on its current form.  And, of course, the botched plan for the intermodal center.  All this repeatedly posted on MJ.  Go read the record if you "dare"!  

Seriously, your posts have mostly been about corruption and government waste, not transit.

Not a transit expert but I do have more common sense than JTA.  Right now, that appears to outweigh their lack of expertise, competency in execution, and self serving agendas.  How can you can say I don't post about transit after probably hundreds of posts on the subject is beyond me.  I will refrain from asking you what is bending your mind tonight.

An all bus transit service cant ever replicate the benefits or the strengths of fixed rail transit, and thats just a fact.

Rail and bus are different modes, each with advantages and disadvantages.  As to which, it depends on what problem you are trying to solve.  One shoe size doesn't fit all.  What are you saying?

I am interested to know STJR, why you think that bus service is preferable to rail, or skyway.

See above comment.  Where did I ever say I always preferred bus service over rail or even compared the two?  I do think that bus service beats the Skyway by far in cost effectiveness and utilitarian value.  How you jump from that to other conclusions is beyond me.

And if you think that is true, how can you possibly be against the BRT?

Once again, Stephen, what planet are you on?

Or are you really just anti mass transit?

Midnight paranoia setting in on you again, Stephen.

[Ocklawaha]

I said BRT was shaping up as a Skyway on rubber tires.  Soon, Ock and others, as with the Skyway, originally opposed, will be forced into saying we invested this much, if only we can expand it for millions more so it will work as planned and to salvage the original investment.  Deja vu.  Uh huh.

Actually the Skyway IS a transit system on rubber tires.

STJR, you do realize that according to newspaper articles, TV interviews and getting my ass run out of town, I probably did more damage, and created more uproar over the Skyway then any group of local citizens. In some circles including a couple of former mayors, it is said the damn thing was never finished thanks to me turning the City against it. Bottom line? I would NEVER have built the Skyway in the first place if that decision was up to me, but frankly as long as we got our heritage streetcar starter line I was perfectly willing to design both as complimentary systems. If it had to be one way or the other as JTA and the mayor thought, I was 100% behind rail. Hell the streetcar plan IS my idea!

You continue to suggest I have compromised my position (for some unknown reward?) which I find insulting. I haven't, but I am also a transit planner and realist with the following opinions:

The $200 Million invested in the Skyway already should not be sacrificed since it is already punched through most of the Central Business District and carries some pretty weighty advantages of it's own (or at least COULD carry some advantages).

Considering a like sum of money today would probably extend it to multimodal stations in neighborhoods where people actually live-work-play we could take advantage of the Obama Administrations zeal in assisting expansion and improvements on fixed rail systems (The Skyway IS a type of rail) and the Skyway qualifies. The dismal performance of the unfinished railroad to nowhere, paid for by the Federal Government is embarrassing to them as well as us, a fact that would boost our chances to get funding for a major fix.

As for me "Compromising" my anti-BRT stand? Uh, better read my stand before going in this direction. I LOVE BRT, really it's a great idea if it's not overbuilt. My "anti" argument is based almost 100% on the piss poor choices JTA has made in regards to both application and routing. Hell if it was up to me we'd have 300 miles of BRT within the city, but not one foot of it would duplicate the Skyway, Railroad or Streetcar routes.  Timuquana, Blanding, Cassett, Post, Kings, Edgewood, Lem Turner, Norwood, Moncrief, Talleyrand, Merrill, University, JTB, Dunn, Zoo Parkway/Hecksher, Wonderwood, I-295 (Buckman), San Jose, Atlantic, Beach...
Hell BRT would be everywhere in various stages of basic, deluxe or something in the middle, all coordinated with Skyway, Rail, or Streetcar.  

I don't want to read how I and my "others" will twist in the wind when you apparently don't have a clue what we are attempting to achieve.

I want just one thing from JTA...  DO IT RIGHT!


OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

Ock, I have read your tales of woe on the Skyway countless times.  I have said before I respect your position.  We simply disagree on where to turn at the current fork in the road: put more money in it or abandon it.

As to any other plan, when I oppose it, it is based on the plan as presented by JTA.  So, we agree, I think, that we oppose, together, their current BRT plan.  I am not opposing the concept of BRT and don't know that I have posted so.  I do fundamentally oppose the Skyway, because, unlike the BRT, I think it is an inferior concept vs. other alternatives, with or without JTA's "helpful" mismanagement.

My comments above relating to you are that I see this BRT project getting off on the same foot as the Skyway some 20+ years ago.  An ill conceived Federal money grab that will mortgage Jax's mass transit future for years to come, both with the Feds and the public.  And, given your well stated opposition then to the Skyway and your current desire to "salvage" that $200 million, I can see this process being repeated when people rise and say we need to "salvage" a failed BRT for the same reasons.  History repeating itself.  My invocation of your name was meant to be a synonym for that experience.  No offense intended.  To the contrary, I am looking for you NOT to repeat your prior experience.  Good luck.