Was Hart Expressway Messy Overkill?

[brainstormer]

^ They of course would be utilized.  I was thinking this discussion was about what happens when the Hart is torn down.  With it gone there is the opportunity for a new design, perhaps a beautiful tree-lined parkway that extends all the way to the river. 

[tufsu1]

the idea was to use bridge reconstruction funds (that would have been needed for the raisxed expressway) to tear it down and enhance Bay Street/Gator Bowl Blvd.

That way, the project wouldn't have to be funded with the limited "new capacit" money available in the cost feasible plan.

[Ocklawaha]

I'm pretty sure I can speak for Ock as well.  We aren't interested in the 16 lanes of traffic. The "look and feel" of a tree lined parkway with mass transit, and rows of tall buildings was more what we are after.  Big, Bold and Beautiful!

EXACTLY, a wide, bold, immaculate, manicured, place for flora and fauna alike, a street so different that people come from all around the South just to experience it and its sundry attractions.

BTW, the original probably wasn't overkill as the Commodore Point Expressway was to join JTB out at Town Center and hence run right out to the beach. Had this ever been done, we'd probably need all of it just to distribute the traffic. Sadly when the "good ol boys" put the quietus on the extension, they rendered the multimillion dollar HART bridge a terrible waste of money. Dumb as a sack of shit.

OCKLAWAHA

[Pinky]

Just wondering if anything ever became of this idea, specifically the part about tearing down the octopus of feeder ramps downtown??

I live downtown and have a son at Episcopal, and consequently drive the Hart every day.  Its a lovely bridge, and the south side portion of the expressway is a super convenient way to get out to Beach Blvd when necessary.  But the downtown portion is madness, completely unnecessary, and a visual blight on downtown. 

In my opinion it would be awesome if the bridge simply came down to the surface streets at the stadium and connected with Bay St.  Tear down all that horrid concrete crap that chops up the stadium district.  Bay St is like 6 lanes wide out there.  As configured, the elevated expressway only serves to divide the stadium from the river, isolate Metropolitan Park, and reduce the number of souls down in the east end at any given time. 

It needs to go.  How do we do this?  Who makes that call?

[tufsu1]

It likely won't go anywhere until its useful lifespan is nearing completion....at that time, it will be important to have a community discussion on the value of rehabbing, replacing, or tearing it down....I'm guessing those conversations are in the next 5-10 years

[blfair]

I always thought it reminded me of something I'd do in SimCity that no one would use but that would eventually bankrupt me with maintenance.

[Pinky]

Who would ultimately make that call?  Is that the city?  FL DOT?  I wonder if that conversation could be accelerated by folding the demolition into a comprehensive plan to improve the far east-end of downtown and the East Bay?  Say, one master project that pulled down the elevated expressway, and turned the riverfront from Metropolitan Park all the way down to the Old Courthouse into a centerpiece park.  Bay St becomes the grand riverfront boulevard it could and should be.  To make it perfect they could drop the Skyway down to street level through the new park all the way down to the Stadium.

[thelakelander]

FDOT.

[tufsu1]

It was brought up (somewhat quietly) as part of the last North Florida TPO LRTP Update....the next LRTP Update will be starting this year and it could be discussed in more detail...it could also find its way into Jax 2025 discussions, although it may be too sepcific for an overall city vision

[coredumped]

I've seen it mentioned on this site somewhere that on south southbank side of the hart expressway, the expressway was supposed to continue on down to southside. Does anyone know what the original plan was or have a picture?

[billy]

While we're at it, what about the Arlington expressway connection around Union Street?
Is there any futher discussion about working on that?

[Jason]

I think that was Ock that mentioned it.

[thelakelander]

While we're at it, what about the Arlington expressway connection around Union Street?
Is there any futher discussion about working on that?

Isn't this what MLK already does?

[BackinJax05]

I'm pretty sure I can speak for Ock as well.  We aren't interested in the 16 lanes of traffic. The "look and feel" of a tree lined parkway with mass transit, and rows of tall buildings was more what we are after.  Big, Bold and Beautiful!

EXACTLY, a wide, bold, immaculate, manicured, place for flora and fauna alike, a street so different that people come from all around the South just to experience it and its sundry attractions.

BTW, the original probably wasn't overkill as the Commodore Point Expressway was to join JTB out at Town Center and hence run right out to the beach. Had this ever been done, we'd probably need all of it just to distribute the traffic. Sadly when the "good ol boys" put the quietus on the extension, they rendered the multimillion dollar HART bridge a terrible waste of money. Dumb as a sack of shit.

OCKLAWAHA

That's it! Those damned good ol' boys who ran this town for so long. Doing things on the cheap and/or ass backwards - and acting like they were doing something special.

(As for the good ol'boys: Davis [family], Paxson, Burns, Ritter, & Lanahan immediately come to mind. I know there are alot more)

[Ocklawaha]

As far as construction and demolition is concerned, in a fantasy world where money and approvals were no problem, the Hart/Commodore Point Expressway could be salvaged.

1. Eliminate 80% of the ramps, including the long trek along/above Bay Street. The exception being the connection with the MLK/Haines Street Expressway.

2. Parkway the entire length of Bay from the Lafayette to Talleyrand, complete street + monorail

3. Extend the east end of the 4 elevated lanes on Beach east to Southside Boulevard, the 4 C/D lanes remain at ground level. Alternative routes exist along Beach or via Hogan and approaching Southside on Hogan or at Anders (power line Right of Way) which could be extended all the way to St. Johns Bluff.

4. Add modern expressway lighting and landscaping.

This would at least salvage the sizable investment made in a FREEway that was supposed to tie the STJTC area with town by becoming a usable alternative for the typical gridlock on Southside and Beach.

Meanwhile don't worry over the Arlington Expressway connection with State and Union until the bridge over the old railroad yard, Hogans Creek, Palmetto and Randolph collapse in a giant smoldering heap. When that happens we'll get free money and a fun round of finger pointing.