Downtown Bus Rapid Transit Project Moving Forward

[ChriswUfGator]

The young enlisted seamen I was talking about don't make anywhere near the minimum wage.  On the carrier they were twelve on twelve off six and seven days a week for six months deployment.

How many hours is that?  What does a sailor just out of basic earn?

As far as I am concerned, military officers in any service earn every penny and every benefit they get.

We are way off the thread.  Sorry admins, I'll quit.

Don't get me wrong Dogwalker, I also think our military earn every cent they are paid and then some. But my point was that they're not in the same boat (excuse the pun since we're talking Navy!) as minimum wage earners in society, because they make more than minimum wage.

You can't factor in the off-duty time when they're on base or shipside because they're also getting free housing, food, clothes, medical, etc., etc., during that time. So they are compensated for the additional time invested, but not directly via their paycheck. Even so, an E1 (the lowest available pay grade) still makes more than minimum wage without even factoring in any of the additional benefits or services they get.

[thelakelander]

It appears JTA is finally moving with their long delayed plans for bus rapid transit in downtown.

Jacksonville rapid transit bus contract out for bid in January

Two years from now Downtown Jacksonville will have a new bus route that travels faster and farther.
The Jacksonville Transportation Authority plans to let out bids for the first phase of its Bus Rapid Transit System at the beginning of next year, agency CEO Nat Ford said.

"The design is 90 percent completed," he said. "The city council needs to approve a continuing control agreement (to assure project implementation), and the Federal Transit Administration needs to approve our final design."

full article: http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2013/10/11/jacksonville-rapid-transit-bus.html

[thelakelander]

BRT's are sophisticated bus systems that have their own dedicated lanes on city streets. They are an effective substitute for light rail, running longer distance between stops and using stations where passengers pay before boarding, at a fraction of the cost of rail.

Come on Carole....

BRT isn't an effective substitute for LRT.  It's a different animal altogether, especially BRT-lite (which is what we're getting).  The only people telling you it's an effective substitute for a fraction of the cost are people trying to sell you on BRT at the expense of something else.  That type of sentiment does transit in general a great disservice.

[Charles Hunter]

A pretty good recitation of JTA's talking points.  What about "reporting"?

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

I'm still incredibly dumbfounded that this project is actually going through. 

I can only guess that it was the 'use it or lose it' situation with the federal grant money, but in this case, I think they should have 'lost' it.

What is this 'downtown loop' that the article is referring to?  I'm really only aware of the Lem Turner and Phillips legs.

[Charles Hunter]

Downtown BRT Linky: http://www.jtafla.com/JTAFuturePlans/Bus/Default.aspx?page=Downtown%20Phase%20I&pid=14

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Downtown BRT Linky: http://www.jtafla.com/JTAFuturePlans/Bus/Default.aspx?page=Downtown%20Phase%20I&pid=14

Thanks. 

Cursory glance:

They're duplicating the existing skyway from the Convention Center to Kings Ave. Station and they're making a loop to nowhere past the courthouse on Broad and back down Jefferson?  Genius! 

Isn't that nowhere loop already served by the Riverside Trolley?  You know, for all of those people residents that are trying to get from the courthouse to 5 points.

[Charles Hunter]

This will be the downtown part for each of the suburban BRT routes, it isn't really a 'stand alone' route or loop.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

This will be the downtown part for each of the suburban BRT routes, it isn't really a 'stand alone' route or loop.

Fantastic.  Instead of one route duplicating existing infrastructure and looping around one of the more desolate parts of town, we'll have 4?

Tell me again why this is moving forward.

[Ocklawaha]

MY DISCLAIMER: BRT IS NOT BAD, IN FACT BRT IS GREAT, however don't sell this as rail on rubber tires. Don't lie about conversion to rail at a later date. Don't tell us it's 'just like rail, as fast as rail, as accepted as rail, as ground changing as rail, or cheaper then rail (more and more studies are coming out that suggest just the opposite is true).  Do not pee on my leg and tell me its raining.

It appears that it has taken us a year to discover that perhaps our new executive director at JTA is just as willing to perpetrate ridiculous BRT myths, claims and fabrications to make nice with the federal check book as his predecessors. Someone with Mr. Fords resume has had enough experience with streetcars, commuter rail and buses to know better, likewise our own Brad Thoburn also knows he is being something short of honest. In a city like Atlanta, New Orleans, San Francisco, Charlotte, Norfolk or even Miami, this wouldn't be as critical, people in those cities understand mass transit and they know what it can and can't do. Unfortunately Jacksonville hasn't had any real balanced mass transit since about 1932 and the city's collective memory of transit 'facts' lands somewhere between 'buses are modern and flexible' and 'streetcars are 19Th Century technology.'

BRT's are sophisticated bus systems that have their own dedicated lanes on city streets. They are an effective substitute for light rail, running longer distance between stops and using stations where passengers pay before boarding, at a fraction of the cost of rail.

BRT systems are indeed sophisticated systems provided the investment is of such a level that they have dedicated lanes and exclusive right-of-way. To achieve that level of 'sophisticated service' the investment will approach if not exceed the cost of light rail. BRT has achieved the ridership of light rail in only a couple of locations and both of those have required substantial injections of cash. A BRT application such as JTA is planning is considered BRT-LITE and these buses will run in mixed traffic subject to the same delays as all of the other traffic, brand it, paint it, shoot off fireworks from the roof tops, in the end its just another bus. Such a bus as BRT-LITE can not approach the performance of light-rail, and it will not come anywhere close to any type of rail in ridership, add to this repaving and replacement of vehicles every 10-12 years, and BRT will prove to be anything but an effective substitute.

Jacksonville's system will have a Downtown loop and four other corridors that feed into it from the North, East, Southeast and Southwest.

Mr. Ford wasn't in town two weeks before he met with stephendare and myself and took serious note of the long, wasted 'loop' through downtown. Nevermind that the city and it's people attended countless dog and pony shows where they loudly told JTA they did not want this project, JTA is moving ahead and doing exactly what it planned to do in the first place. Sorry folks this is Skyway take II.

"Bus rapid transit helps people move longer distances through the city and to do it quicker," said Brad Thoburn, JTA's vice president of long-range planning and system development. "Today, people get frustrated when they travel from one side of town to Downtown, because it takes too long. A BRT will give them faster and more frequent service. It will become a backbone that all of the local routes feed into."

Perhaps Brad would like to explain how a bus running in regular traffic lanes is going to be any faster after we paint 'BRT' on its side, then a bus on the same road today?

Light rail systems can cost as much as $25 million to $50 million per mile, Thoburn said, whereas BRT's usually cost from $3 million to $10 million. Jacksonville's will cost $2 million per mile, because the city didn't have to purchase a lot of right-of-way.

This is true, and toilet seats can cost upwards of $200,000 dollars (NASA) but this doesn't mean that our toilet seats have to cost as much.

Ford said a BRT is a better choice for Jacksonville's ridership than light rail.

This statement was either made by someone with absolutely zero knowledge of rail transit or it was a completely unsubstantiated spur of the moment fabrication cut from whole cloth. As we know that Mr. Ford has experienced then what facts are on the table to prove this? Based on what? We have zero experience with rail since 1936, which makes this wildly presumptive.

"The funding is not there for a light rail solution at this time," he said. "The (population) density would need to further develop to support an investment in rail, and we're not there yet. We have a density that clearly fits a BRT model."
Because a BRT uses infrastructure similar to light rail, such as dedicated transit corridors and stations, the system could be converted to rail once the city's population density supports it, Ford said.

Conversion has never been done in this country. Build BRT and you'll live with BRT, end of story. The idea that there is no funding for a rail solution at this time is comical as it would require JTA to actually do the study and apply for the grants which they clearly have not done. There was a token survey study of a heritage streetcar in Riverside but nothing approaching a corridor service. Anyone in the business of mass transit can tell you transit is a density builder, using good planning, grants and proper application, rail will create the density that some perceive is needed, something buses have failed to do as they do not foster large scale transit oriented development.

Jacksonville's system will cost $110 million and, when finished, will be one of the largest in the Southeast, Ford said. Eighty percent of the funding comes from the Federal Transit Administration, 10 percent from the state and 10 percent from the JTA.

'BOHICA' JACKSONVILLE!

From a recent BRT power point presentation by the National BRT Institute:

"In Cleveland, BRT was marketed as rubber-tired rail." ...interesting, I wonder how many light rail projects have been marketed as steel wheeled bus?

"The Cleveland Health Line BRT cost $27.7 million dollars per mile." ...More then MANY streetcar and some light rail projects.

And who produced this lovely presentation where I pulled these comments? None other then FDOT, CUTR and PARSONS BRINCKERHOFF, sound familiar?

[thelakelander]

This will be the downtown part for each of the suburban BRT routes, it isn't really a 'stand alone' route or loop.

Fantastic.  Instead of one route duplicating existing infrastructure and looping around one of the more desolate parts of town, we'll have 4?

Tell me again why this is moving forward.

Federal money has already been allocated.  For a cash strapped agency, that's pretty hard to turn down. Overall, the concept isn't a bad thing for Jacksonville. It's just a little out there to believe that (A) this can be converted into LRT, (B) is an effective substitute for LRT, (C) is actually BRT, and (D) that Jax is not dense enough for LRT.

(A) - Buses are sharing existing roadway lanes with cars.  Think Charlotte Sprinter, Kansas City Max, etc. not Cleveland Health Line or Ottawa Transitway. Converting something like this to LRT means you'll be taking lanes out of FDOT facilities for a train. Not happening....and IMO, that would be a bad idea anyway.

(B) - You really only hear this substitute for rail by BRT salesman.  You never hear roadway proponents sell out one road for another.  They typically fight for funding and acceptance of getting all of them built at the expense of alternative modes like transit. Lately, there's been a series of stories about BRT vs LRT, Streetcar vs Bike Share, etc.  Pitting these things against each other isn't an effective implementation strategy in the long term.  Instead, we need to learn how to plan and incrementally implement all of them, if they are deemed most effective for the particular corridors/populations they're destined to serve.

Actually, BRT works bests when it's a part of an integrated transit network.  Take the Health Line for example.  Cleveland also has a city wide network of heavy rail and LRT lines that the Health Line complements and feeds riders into.  Locally, we need to make sure our network complements the skyway as opposed to competing with it for limited ridership.  Same goes for commuter rail...if and when that ever comes on line.  All of these things should feed riders into one another.

(C) - I know this is being called BRT for funding purposes but we're not getting dedicated transit lanes and for the most part we don't need them anyway.  However, because we aren't getting dedicated transit lanes, that's the reason the cost is low.  What we're getting is called BRT-lite by many in the transportation industry.  A real BRT system (the kind some claim can be converted into LRT at twice the original expense) will easily cost you +$25 million/mile. At $3 million per mile, you're paying for a branded bus and improved stops that will run on existing streets with existing auto/truck traffic. There's nothing wrong with this but it's good to know and understand upfront that the service and the impact on the surrounding built environment will be dramatically different. 

(D) - The dense argument is one of those things we keep siloing ourselves into.  Overall, Jax may not be dense enough for LRT or whatever to be constructed to Cecil Field, Mandarin, etc. but neither is Norfolk, Atlanta, Charlotte, San Diego, etc.  You don't build these systems based off overall density.  You build them to address specific corridors where the network of viable destinations are already in place (ex.San Diego Trolley Green Line) or you envision a different type of dense environment that you want see spring up around them (ex.Detroit M1 Streetcar).  With that said, I'm more of a proponent for a streetcar connecting downtown with surrounding walkable neighborhoods moreso than LRT down any of the proposed BRT-lite routes. LRT really doesn't make sense along the low density and sprawly corridors that JTA has chosen for bus rapid transit.

Overall, my advice would be to sell whatever we're getting on the benefits that it will bring specifically, such as more frequent, attractive, reliable, efficient and easy to understand service. One thing I've learned over the years to engaging the public from both ends of the table is that public isn't stupid. Anyone who's taken LRT knows BRT is nowhere near the quality of LRT or that it generates the same level of excitement or Transit Oriented Development (TOD) stimulation.  Nat Ford even said this himself back when he was at Muni in San Francisco.  Crazy enough, we have a quote that was in an 2010 MJ story on streetcars:

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-aug-streetcars-waterfronts-the-f-market-wharves-line

San Francisco's streetcar line is an integral part of the Bay Area's transit system.  Nathaniel Ford, executive director of San Francisco Municipal Transportation Agency, said daily ridership peaks at 24,000 during the summer tourist season but added that the line also gets heavy use by daily commuters connecting to light rail and the city's subway system.

He said streetcars do more for economic development than buses. "Rail projects are very expensive, but tend to be permanent.  And you get the economic development around stops that you normally don't see with bus operations."

full article: http://www.stltoday.com/business/article_19a93293-77db-570c-b3ac-a720bea8bf14.html

My ultimate fear is that if we go around selling the public on something that isn't necessarily true (BRT is LRT on rubber wheels, it stimulates TOD just like rail, etc.), when the system is actually up, people end up being disappointed because it doesn't live up to the sales job. When this happens, it negatively impacts people's opinion of transit altogether and makes future funding initiatives more difficult to succeed. IMO, it's always best to keep it real by selling and marketing what something actually does.

[thelakelander]

"Bus rapid transit helps people move longer distances through the city and to do it quicker," said Brad Thoburn, JTA's vice president of long-range planning and system development. "Today, people get frustrated when they travel from one side of town to Downtown, because it takes too long. A BRT will give them faster and more frequent service. It will become a backbone that all of the local routes feed into."

Perhaps Brad would like to explain how a bus running in regular traffic lanes is going to be any faster after we paint 'BRT' on its side, then a bus on the same road today?

In defense of Brad, I can see how the proposed BRT-lite improvements will provide faster and more frequent service than what those corridors are getting today.  For example, if you accept the federal cash, you'll have to provide 10-15 minute headways.  Much of the headways on many of these corridors aren't anywhere close to that today.  Also, because the buses will make limited stops, some time should be saved there.  When I look at what's proposed, the operational improvements are the major positives of what JTA should be selling to the public. 

[thelakelander]

Sometimes a picture or a short promotional video can visually illustrate what a thousand words can't.  Here's a brief video of the Kansas City MAX BRT.  The JTA MAX (same name) will basically be a carbon copy of what Kansas City implemented a few years back.

http://www.youtube.com/v/c8Pj4uAHk2E

If you believe this is like LRT on rubber wheels or that you can go back and convert this to LRT, I'm your long lost  Nigerian prince, who will split my long lost gold with you if you're willing to share your bank account information with me.

[Dapperdan]

There was talk of the BRT buses being able to make the lights turn green. Is that still the case? If so, Why not just follow in your car behind the bus?

[thelakelander]

^I haven't seen JTA's latest design plans but queue jumps at major intersections would resolve that issue. 



Now, if you're on a really congested corridor, you can get screwed regardless of the presence of queue jumps and dedicated lanes.  During rush hour a few months back, my ride on the Cleveland Health Line took +40 minutes to go roughly six miles between University Circle and Tower City. One of the major issues were cars backing up into the street while making left turns at major intersections. Green light or not, you can't go when there's a vehicle sitting in your way.


A phone pic I snapped on the Health Line while waiting for cars blocking our dedicated lanes to move.