Can Downtown Survive?

[ChriswUfGator]

And I still say there's no way in hell there's 18,000 workers in the Northbank core.

Do you have any data to back this up?  

I can corroborate this.  I heard (as did the metrojacksonville board) directly from the mouth of two DVI board members that the official figure downtown is less than 6000 people.

I call BS on this....the City alone has about 7,000 employees (and most of them are downtown).

If you have some data to back up your assertion, please provide.

Tufsu, nobody cares about City workers, they have their own parking and so they aren't relevant to this debate.

We're talking about the impact on private businesses. Which has been disastrous.

[iluvolives]

And I still say there's no way in hell there's 18,000 workers in the Northbank core.

Do you have any data to back this up?  

I can corroborate this.  I heard (as did the metrojacksonville board) directly from the mouth of two DVI board members that the official figure downtown is less than 6000 people.

Then perhaps you should have suggested to them to update their website.

[acme54321]

Am I correct in assuming that this 6k number does not include the southbank?  Possibly this 18k number includes the southbank and the brooklyn area?  (Both of which I would consider downtown)

Those aren't downtown for the purposes of this debate, because the asinine parking policies at the heart of this debate aren't present in the Soutbank or Brooklyn. In fact, the Southbank has picked up a lot of the people who've been pulling out of the original core for the exact reason that parking isn't an expensive hassle. So including the Southside in the figures simply disguises the impact of the parking policies in place in the core.

That's exactly what I figured.  Just saying maybe this 18k figure he is throwing out includes those two areas.

[ChriswUfGator]

Am I correct in assuming that this 6k number does not include the southbank?  Possibly this 18k number includes the southbank and the brooklyn area?  (Both of which I would consider downtown)

Those aren't downtown for the purposes of this debate, because the asinine parking policies at the heart of this debate aren't present in the Soutbank or Brooklyn. In fact, the Southbank has picked up a lot of the people who've been pulling out of the original core for the exact reason that parking isn't an expensive hassle. So including the Southside in the figures simply disguises the impact of the parking policies in place in the core.

That's exactly what I figured.  Just saying maybe this 18k figure he is throwing out includes those two areas.

Yeah, you're right, that's the issue. And it annoys me when Tufsu does that, because he's professionally educated in this field, and though he's well aware of the difference, he still uses these figures that really mean one thing to imply another thing anyway.

I'd be more forgiving if it were just your average poster on the site who may not realize that all these other areas which clearly aren't part of the urban core are nevertheless being included in the figures anyway, but I have a lot less patience for Tufsu because he definitely knows better. This is his profession, and he's well-educated, and well aware of the difference.

[fsujax]

Whose numbers am I supposed to believe?? I am confused. 6,000;18,000;50,000? Can someone get it right? I think MetroJacksonville should create employment  density maps for every block in Downtown. Contact every single tower and get a good handle on the number of employees in each tower. Modis, BofA, AT&T, CSX, BB&T, Suntrust, 550, JEA Tower, Life of the South, Wachovia tower (nb) just a few to start with.

[tufsu1]

well I just looked at the socioeconomic data used in the recent 2035 LRTP Update...as part of that study, the travel demand model was validated/calibrated to the year 2005.

Employment data was obtained from the State of Florida and business data groups....using the downtown core boundaries of the river, Jefferson St, Union St, and Market St, there were just under 20,000 employees in 2005....keep in mind that this does not include the 3000+ employees at the Sheriff's office and the jail.

So, logic tells me that the DVI/JEDC estimate of 18,000 is far closer to being correct than the 6,000

[tufsu1]

Tufsu, nobody cares about City workers, they have their own parking and so they aren't relevant to this debate.

really...where do the employees in City Hall, the annex, the courthouse, and the Ed Ball building park?

[ChriswUfGator]

Look guys,

Just to clarify, downtown can't just be one giant city-hall. If we want it to be successful, then that needs to be based on private business succeeding down there. This debate isn't about government workers, and it's not about what's happening in Riverside, the Southbank, or LaVilla or Brooklyn either. Using figures that include those extra people is simply masking how grave the situation really is.

This debate is about the success of private businesses in the urban core, and that is rapidly becoming extinct. It's also a little frustrating to keep enduring these endless arguments from the Tufsus and Clines who apparently think the current approach is just peachy. Maybe they've figured out the secret! That's right, everyone is leaving in droves because their wonderful policies just made the place so utterly sublime that people just can't handle it.

Meanwhile, back in the real world, the rest of us wonder why the place looks like Raccoon City after the outbreak...

[tufsu1]

That's exactly what I figured.  Just saying maybe this 18k figure he is throwing out includes those two areas.

no...the 18,000 quoted is just the core...all of downtown (including Southbank, LaVilla, etc.) is about 56,000

[ChriswUfGator]

Tufsu, nobody cares about City workers, they have their own parking and so they aren't relevant to this debate.

really...where do the employees in City Hall, the annex, the courthouse, and the Ed Ball building park?

Are you kidding?

Either A: On the moon, or B: In the City-owned parking lots and garages that are located at each of those structures.

I'll let you guess which one. They are a non-issue, they have their own parking.

[ChriswUfGator]

well I just looked at the socioeconomic data used in the recent 2035 LRTP Update...as part of that study, the travel demand model was validated/calibrated to the year 2005.

Employment data was obtained from the State of Florida and business data groups....using the downtown core boundaries of the river, Jefferson St, Union St, and Market St, there were just under 20,000 employees in 2005....keep in mind that this does not include the 3000+ employees at the Sheriff's office and the jail.

So, logic tells me that the DVI/JEDC estimate of 18,000 is far closer to being correct than the 6,000

Nope.

And by your own admission, that data you're citing is at least 6 years old. As I suspected...

[tufsu1]

ok...so they park in the nearby garages...they are still open to the public and are included in the parking totals provided by DVI.

And, btw, most city employees pay to park (just like the rest of us)....so they also might be very ineterested in free on-street parking

[tufsu1]

never mind...obviously Stephen and Chris are right.

[fsujax]

I didnt realize Modis and St Joe had already cleared out.

[fsujax]

Commuter Rail to the rescue!