FL-9B to be named Interstate 795

[spuwho]

The recently approved and currently under construction 9B will be formally called Interstate 795 when complete.

http://www.interstate-guide.com/i-795_fl.html

No designation is currently listed for the Cecil/Brannan/Chaffee beltway under consideration.

[Mattius92]

The recently approved and currently under construction 9B will be formally called Interstate 795 when complete.

http://www.interstate-guide.com/i-795_fl.html

No designation is currently listed for the Cecil/Brannan/Chaffee beltway under consideration.

The outer beltway is most likely to be SR-23 (since a majority of it is already signed as SR-23), and in the future if it is highway standards, possibly I-210.

[tufsu1]

I'm not sure that website is at all reliable...it lists I-67 as a potential I-10 to I-65 cpnnector parallel to US 231 in Florida...but most studies for the connection have it 60-120 miles west in Escambia, Santa Rosa, or Okaloosa counties.

[spuwho]

I'm not sure that website is at all reliable...it lists I-67 as a potential I-10 to I-65 cpnnector parallel to US 231 in Florida...but most studies for the connection have it 60-120 miles west in Escambia, Santa Rosa, or Okaloosa counties.

The site is accurate for I-795 as that designation appears on the FDOT planning maps and has been approved by the FHWA.

As far as I-67 goes, there are several states petitioning for an "I-67". The website lists the Florida route as "conjecture" meaning no route has ever been formally set. Usually a general route is set before a funding request is made, usually through the TEA and ISTEA and similarly named programs out of Congress. The I-67 route from Florida north via Dothan is the one mentioned the most.

On the "Outer Belt" what i meant to say is that no one has submitted an interstate designation request to the FHWA if the route is to be completed. Therefore it keeps it state designation.

Many of these proposed interstates fall victim to the tug of war in the Congress for road funds. For example, there have been several attempts to have a direct expressway between Minn/St Paul and St Louis, but it keeps getting held up by Wisconsin which demands that any new freeway pass through their state. Of course its madness as this would add 250 miles to the route which essentially kills it. So for now trucks waste fuel by going via KC or Peoria, IL. The same for a direct Chicago/Kansas City route. This one dies because the Iowa delegation insists the ROW pass through their state, adding miles and making it impractical.

The silliest is the battle between Kansas and Missouri on who is going to own the KC to Houston route. Both states DOT's have been pumping dollars into parallel routes on each side of their state lines. Missouri will probably win because Arkansas has done more due to the Wal Mart HQ locale.

It just shows you how political highways are.

[Ocklawaha]

As far as I-67 goes, there are several states petitioning for an "I-67". The website lists the Florida route as "conjecture" meaning no route has ever been formally set. Usually a general route is set before a funding request is made, usually through the TEA and ISTEA and similarly named programs out of Congress. The I-67 route from Florida north via Dothan is the one mentioned the most.

If anyone ever doubted that the Interstate System was initally designed to take down the railroads while providing a "FREE" ride for the highway industry, I thought we could look at these routes from another angle.

I-67 via Dothan?

Alongside the Atlantic Coast Line, today's CSX Montgomery Subdivision mainline. hum? Did they kill a train on that route? Oh did they!

The South Wind departed Chicago Union Station and ran through Logansport and Indianapolis to Louisville Union Station. It then proceeded down the Louisville & Nashville main line through Bowling Green, Nashville, and Birmingham to Montgomery. From Montgomery, it ran down the Atlantic Coast Line through Dothan, Thomasville and Waycross to Jacksonville.

Overview
Type    Inter-city rail
System    Amtrak
Status    Discontinued

On the "Outer Belt" what i meant to say is that no one has submitted an interstate designation request to the FHWA if the route is to be completed. Therefore it keeps it state designation.

No railroad there today, but it would run roughly along the routes of the former South-Western Railroad of Florida, and on the St. Johns side, along the surveyed route of the proposed extension of the Ocklawaha Valley Railroad.

Many of these proposed interstates fall victim to the tug of war in the Congress for road funds. For example, there have been several attempts to have a direct expressway between Minn/St Paul and St Louis, but it keeps getting held up by Wisconsin which demands that any new freeway pass through their state. Of course its madness as this would add 250 miles to the route which essentially kills it. So for now trucks waste fuel by going via KC or Peoria, IL. The same for a direct Chicago/Kansas City route. This one dies because the Iowa delegation insists the ROW pass through their state, adding miles and making it impractical.

Alongside the Chicago, Burlington and Quincy  and the Chicago, Rock Island and Pacific Railroads, today's Burlington Northern Santa Fe.  Oh and that train that they killed? Here it is folks!

Zephyr Rocket Consists

#61-561 (St. Louis)Burlington-St. Paul/Minneapolis
#62-562 St. Paul/Minneapolis-Burlington(St.Louis)
CB&Q #15/#8: St. Louis-Burlington

The silliest is the battle between Kansas and Missouri on who is going to own the KC to Houston route. Both states DOT's have been pumping dollars into parallel routes on each side of their state lines. Missouri will probably win because Arkansas has done more due to the Wal Mart HQ locale.

Yeah, that and the fact that Arkansas has already finished the highway from Ft. Smith north to the Missouri border...  Right alongside the Arkansas and Missouri Railroad...

Oh but that longer distance? KC to HOU? HA! We could call it wasteful duplication of the Santa Fe, Rock Island, Kansas City Southern, Missouri-Kansas-Texas and the Missouri Pacific of just a few years ago. Today one would spell that KANSAS CITY SOUTHERN, UNION PACIFIC, and BURLINGTON NORTHERN SANTA FE.  ... and of course the "Mighty Fine Line" the Rock Island is dead and abandoned in the 1980's blame could be placed 100% on the government.


Dallas Union Station 1910 version, where the Texas Pacific and Houston and Texas Central crossed each other. Both pioneer carriers became components of the larger systems mentioned above.
and below? The same general location today, in fact when you reach the Pacific Avenue flyovers, you are directly over the grave of the two railroads and station.

It just shows you how political highways are.

I couldn't agree more, now what was it that FDOT guy said about how they have "always loved and supported rail?" Uh Huh?

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

The site is accurate for I-795 as that designation appears on the FDOT planning maps and has been approved by the FHWA.

which planning maps are those?

[north miami]

I've got my own ideas on how the "Beltway" will be designated-or named,assuming there is ever to be a ground breaking.

(At the Brannon/Chaffee ground breaking Army Corps of Engineers Colonel Joe Miller called me via cel phone from the event site...to apologize. He would later end up in the Delaney administration for a very short tenure).

Through various format, roadway sections to be named in honor of certain persons,events,even references to Official Record Book & Page.

[stjr]

SR 9B, I-795, whatever...  my name is I-SI:  "Interstate - Special Interest".

[Dog Walker]

Last month drove I-80 across Utah, Nevada and California and discovered that it exactly followed the path of the original trans-continental railroad.  It at least is still in use for freight and has some spectacular sections of engineering as it goes through the Sierra Nevada mountains.

Ock is right.  It would be interesting to overlay a national map of the Interstate system and the earlier railroads.

[tufsu1]

part of the reason interstates follow old roads and rail lines (especially through mountains) is simple 'path of least resistance'.

[spuwho]

The site is accurate for I-795 as that designation appears on the FDOT planning maps and has been approved by the FHWA.

which planning maps are those?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Outer_Beltway_V.2_Full.png

The planning image was taken from a presentation done on the First Coast Outer Beltway.

[spuwho]

If anyone ever doubted that the Interstate System was initally designed to take down the railroads while providing a "FREE" ride for the highway industry, I thought we could look at these routes from another angle.


OCKLAWAHA

When the National Interstate System was conceived, the railroads were already in decline due to poor rate structures, apathetic regulation with one foot still in 1925, and indifferent attitudes towards shippers.

So while it is easy to blame "free" highways for the decline of US railroads, it was actually already in progress for some 30 years.

The desire of the people for mobility without the constraints of schedules and enforced routes is what killed passenger rail. An inflexible rate structure mandated by the feds in concert with outdated union rules is what almost did them in on freight.

The fact that roads follow many RR ROW's is no coincidence as the RR surveyors were quite competent in their day and had the same goals any modern DOT would, best route with as few obstacles and as low cost as possible.

You can thank the Staggers Act for reviving the freight railroad business and deregulation to the STB for allowing "dead running" railroads to fail or merge. The need for deregulation was made obvious and clear with the Rock Island debacle and the merger of the Pennsylvania with the NYC.

Interstate Highways merely accelerated a process that had begun many years prior and facilitated the changes that helped them become what they are today. To "blame" them is just an easy way to avoid history.

[stjr]

I would think if you look at the piggyback business, interstates and railroads would compliment each other (i.e. 1 + 1 = 3) in an intermodal sense.  Long hauls by rail, door-to-door delivery that last mile from the intermodal terminal by truck.

The gripe I would have is that too many trucks (and cars) use the interstates for longer hauls when rail might be more cost efficient if the roads were not so overly subsidized versus rail.

[Ocklawaha]

If anyone ever doubted that the Interstate System was initally designed to take down the railroads while providing a "FREE" ride for the highway industry, I thought we could look at these routes from another angle.


OCKLAWAHA

NEW YORK CENTRAL'S WEST SHORE LINE...

When the National Interstate System was conceived, the railroads were already in decline due to poor rate structures, apathetic regulation with one foot still in 1925, and indifferent attitudes towards shippers.

How much of that decline was due to the competition, IE: truckers, buses and waterways getting a free ride on a more modern high speed roadway?  Certainly this has never been quantified.

So while it is easy to blame "free" highways for the decline of US railroads, it was actually already in progress for some 30 years.

Railroad's reached a historic peak in tonnage and passengers during the depths of WWI and II. They reached the zenith of their US miles in 1923-24. At the end of WWII they invested hundreds of millions of dollars in new equipment, diesels, replaced steam, new AC streamlined cars and trains, and larger modern freight cars. Yet by 1958, the railroad's commanding position in passenger travel slipped away to the airlines. By the mid 1960's the railroads were no longer carrying even 50% of America's freight.

The desire of the people for mobility without the constraints of schedules and enforced routes is what killed passenger rail. An inflexible rate structure mandated by the feds in concert with outdated union rules is what almost did them in on freight.

Mobility certainly played into this disaster on the rails, as well as apathy and Neanderthal leadership at the company HQ and Washington DC. No matter how you want to cut the blame, it was a combination of things that nearly spelled the end of "The Grand Conveyance." Isn't it strange that the Florida East Coast was able to buck all of these mighty doomsday engines and reverse the trend without outside help? Could the New York, Ontario and Western? Lehigh and New England? Rock Island? Milwaukee Road? or Espee have reversed the trend on their own properties? Doubtful as their was too much outside interference.  

The fact that roads follow many RR ROW's is no coincidence as the RR surveyors were quite competent in their day and had the same goals any modern DOT would, best route with as few obstacles and as low cost as possible.

That's not a highly accurate statement as the railroads were generally laid down with state-of-the-art survey and construction materials circa 1870, and the interstates with the monster machines and lasers of today. True that a pass is a pass, is a pass, but cresting that summit at 4,800 feet with a modern 49 mile long highway, is a far cry from cresting that "same" summit at 10,500 feet after an all day climb over 158 miles of spiraling track.

You can thank the Staggers Act for reviving the freight railroad business and deregulation to the STB for allowing "dead running" railroads to fail or merge. The need for deregulation was made obvious and clear with the Rock Island debacle and the merger of the Pennsylvania with the NYC.

Agreed, though it is probably time to put the brakes on further wholesale abandonments in favor of rail-banking.

Interstate Highways merely accelerated a process that had begun many years prior and facilitated the changes that helped them become what they are today. To "blame" them is just an easy way to avoid history.

It's not avoiding history, rather its just a lighter look at the "what if's" of our past. You misunderstood me if you thought I was suggesting all of the ills belong to the Interstates.  

Throughout the 1920's the Chicago, Rock Island and Pacific RR, protested that it was FORCED to pay into a fund (taxes) dedicated to building the highway system of Oklahoma. Newspaper articles appear in abundance over this same subject, and in Florida's case, EVERY able bodied male was required to serve in a "road camp" during the roaring twenties, including railroad employees. So not only did the railroads partly finance the roads, the very workers they depended on were forced under severe penalties to work XX weeks EVERY year until their quota of road building was complete.

It's a theory shared by much of the railroad press, that the highway industry is far from innocent in this fight for survival.


OCKLAWAHA

[spuwho]

I am sure we could debate rail, roads and other items all day.

However, even with roads, there is no "free" ride. Roads are paid for by fuel taxes.

Yes, even commercial firms have to pay taxes on the fuel they use on the roads.

While what they pay relative to the weight and damage they cause IMHO is not up to snuff, they do pay just like all of us regular people.

So is it "free", not really.