5 Reasons Why The Outer Beltway May Be A Bad Investment

[Lunican]

Abel Harding from the Times Union posted about this: http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/401574/abel-harding/2010-06-29/outer-beltway-build-or-not-build

[TheProfessor]

This will just promote more sprawl and push the Duval tax base into Clay/St. Johns counties....It should be invested in rail instead.

[Joe]

I think this is a good article and a good discussion. However, I think it understates some of the political realities behind the Outer Beltway's inception.

At its most fundamental level, the FCOB was created by political interests in Clay County. They realized that they were at a huge disadvantage without highway infrastructure, and they have been lobbying the DOT, MPO, TPO, etc for years to get this freeway built.

Consequently, some of these (very valid) arguments against the FCOB are going to fall on deaf ears. I think most planners and govt officials are pretty damn aware of the issues raised in this article. They know it's risky. They know it's way way too far south. They know that it's mostly a subsidy for future home construction. But that's exactly what Clay County politicians want.

I don't mean to sound so pessimistic - but this is a project that Clay REALLY wants, while Duval and St Johns are basically indifferent. Frankly, I'm not sure how to effectively raise public awareness against the project in Duval or St Johns.

[cline]

I think this is a good article and a good discussion. However, I think it understates some of the political realities behind the Outer Beltway's inception.

At its most fundamental level, the FCOB was created by political interests in Clay County. They realized that they were at a huge disadvantage without highway infrastructure, and they have been lobbying the DOT, MPO, TPO, etc for years to get this freeway built.

Consequently, some of these (very valid) arguments against the FCOB are going to fall on deaf ears. I think most planners and govt officials are pretty damn aware of the issues raised in this article. They know it's risky. They know it's way way too far south. They know that it's mostly a subsidy for future home construction. But that's exactly what Clay County politicians want.

I don't mean to sound so pessimistic - but this is a project that Clay REALLY wants, while Duval and St Johns are basically indifferent. Frankly, I'm not sure how to effectively raise public awareness against the project in Duval or St Johns.

Bingo.

[north miami]

I think this is a good article and a good discussion. However, I think it understates some of the political realities behind the Outer Beltway's inception.

At its most fundamental level, the FCOB was created by political interests in Clay County. They realized that they were at a huge disadvantage without highway infrastructure, and they have been lobbying the DOT, MPO, TPO, etc for years to get this freeway built.

Consequently, some of these (very valid) arguments against the FCOB are going to fall on deaf ears. I think most planners and govt officials are pretty damn aware of the issues raised in this article. They know it's risky. They know it's way way too far south. They know that it's mostly a subsidy for future home construction. But that's exactly what Clay County politicians want.

Clay had two dandy facilities in place and through what a grand jury described as "inept" planning efforts due to undue development interest influence pretty much compromised SR 21/Blanding Blvd. and errouneously promoted Brannon/Chaffee as alleviation. It's a comedy of errors.As a student of the beltway since 1978 I realized long ago that realities and truths would emerge only upon arriving to the point we are today.

I don't mean to sound so pessimistic - but this is a project that Clay REALLY wants, while Duval and St Johns are basically indifferent. Frankly, I'm not sure how to effectively raise public awareness against the project in Duval or St Johns.

[north miami]

The beltway is imbedded,a story in our culture about how things are.And are not.

Today on the WJCT First Coast Connect we heard a typically glib and unchecked reference,this time from Skip Crammer,Jacksonville Community Council,Inc.,who suggested that turning to foreign private entity is preferable to "locking up tax dollars".

It's not about locking up tax dollars-the dollars are not there.Why,over the course of many decades have we managed to build facility without having to look to foreign sources?? What is different now?

[vicupstate]

I live in Greenville and have since before the Southern Connector was constructed.  The Southern Connector's path never made sense and still doesn't.  I have always referred to it as the Waste of Money Connector.

There is a need to shorten the route of traffic traveling north on I-26 heading toward Atlanta.  However, if that had been the motivation, the 'loop' aspect of this highway would not have been used.  Instead a 'straight line' path would have been used.

The TRUE motivation was to open up land for development, specifically industrial sites. Before the highway was even completed, the county invested in an industrial park with frontage on the Connector. 

Essentially, the cart (road) was put before the horse (development). South Carolinians are not use to paying tolls. And what point would there be in paying a toll for a route that saves little if any time because of it's 'loop' path? 

BTW, Aaroniouslives, even if the traffic on the Southern Connector had DOUBLED, it still would have lost money, so your argument that the large population of Jax invalidates the comparison does not hold water.   That is especially true since the Outer Beltway TOLL is more than DOUBLE that of the Southern Connector.   Also, NEITHER road is a beltway at all, but more of a 'quadrant bypass'.

The Outer Beltway is a turkey plain and simple.  It is being pushed to further an agenda and line pockets. 

The DIFFERENCE between the Southern Connector and the Outer Beltway from a POLITICAL standpoint is this: The Southern connector was a first-of-it's-kind model.  There were very few prior projects of a similiar nature.  There was no example of a similiar project having failed.  The Outer Beltway now has the Southern Connector as a precedent.  Needless to say, not a good one.  If Clay County/Jacksonville does not learn from this disaster, they are doomed to repeat it.

[cline]

The Southern connector was a first-of-it's-kind model.  There were very few prior projects of a similiar nature.  There was no example of a similiar project having failed.

The Camino Columbia toll road in Texas opened a little before the Souther Connector and performed far more dismally.  It missed its projections by over 90%.  It has since been foreclosed on.

[DemocraticNole]

The outer beltway could serve a purpose, if it was in the right location. The problem is that it is too far south.

As far as forcing more development closer to town, this could be done by adding tolls to existing freeways. Now, I'm not sure what the DOT laws are for making interstate highways toll roads, but if possible, Duval County should make all I-95, I-10, and I-295 toll roads throughout the county. This would do a couple of things:

1) Seriously make people consider whether they want to live 30-45 minutes away from their office
2) Decrease traffic flow on these roads
3) Allows the roads to be fairly paid for. Instead of subsidizing the roads at heavy cost to the taxpayer, the actual users of the roads would be paying for them.

With the new open road tolling systems, where you use a transponder, or have the bill mailed to you, these tolls could be in place relatively quickly at a minimal cost. This is what Tampa is beginning to do on the Leroy Selmon Crosstown Expressway. Orlando is also installing much of this technology.

Another policy the county should think about is road widening. The county should consider not expanding any roadways outside of the I-295 beltway. This is another way to add incentives for people to live closer to town.

I won't even go into the light rail discussion.

[stjr]

At its most fundamental level, the FCOB was created by political interests in Clay County. They realized that they were at a huge disadvantage without highway infrastructure, and they have been lobbying the DOT, MPO, TPO, etc for years to get this freeway built.

That would be the same Clay County politicos that created the Blanding Blvd. traffic disaster with their zeal for little or no zoning (anti-regulation, pro-property rights) and growth-at-any-price attitude.  You couldn't pay me to live in Clay with leadership like this.  A bunch of Clay County farmers and speculators smell $$$ and just want to retire rich from developing their land.  No one of influence there really seems to care about quality of life.

They are living a pipe dream to think that this road will bring desirable outcomes to Clay.  It will destroy any rural way of life that remains there and proliferate a dozen more Blanding Blvds.  And, this panacea growth they seek has served them so poorly to date that they are canceling their July 4th fireworks this year due to lack of money.

If St. Johns Cty. gets in bed with Clay on this, they will suffer similarly.  Just look at I-95 and 210 for scenes of coming attractions.

As I have said before, both of these counties have unique and worthwhile natural amenities that they should be preserving and exploiting for eco-tourism rather than urban sprawl growth that will be tomorrow's indistinguishable slums and/or under performing suburbs.

[Timkin]

I think we may need the outer beltway in MAYBE 20 years..assuming we have the growth I have seen in Clay/Duval/St Johns  over the last 20 .  Before that time it would be mostly unused/not needed. I grew up in Green Cove Springs, so I can attest to the rural environment of alot of Clay County,and how that has changed alot in my time. I hope this outer beltway does not come to pass for quite some time.  We do not need it at this point.  As several have mentioned already, lets get infill to what we have now and take a look at that in the future....

[mtraininjax]

20 years? Come on, how realistic is that? In 20 years PS 4 will be rubble.

[Timkin]

Probably so M !   LOL   What does PS #4 have to do with a Beltway? 

[Joe]

That would be the same Clay County politicos that created the Blanding Blvd. traffic disaster with their zeal for little or no zoning (anti-regulation, pro-property rights) and growth-at-any-price attitude.

While I share your distaste for Blanding Blvd and the Clay County built environment, I feel compelled to split hairs with this statement.

Clay/Blanding are in fact HEAVILY zoned and HEAVILY regulated. There is nothing anti-regulation about sprawl. All the crap along Blanding Blvd (or any other suburban corridor for that matter) looks the way it does because of a giant patchwork of intrusive government over-regulation that forces developers to build sprawl.

Anyway, I know that's not on topic, but I always feel compelled to fight the "sprawl = no regulation" myth whenever it shows up.

[spuwho]

Acquire the ROW but don't build it until it is clearly needed. It will be needed someday, just not today. So own the land now with the idea it will happen 20-30 years from now.