Consolidated Government's Effect on Downtown. Affordable Urban Core Housing Issues

[hillary supporter]

I am not sure about Section 8 housing, but it would be nice to have more diverse housing choices downtown...

at this point, im willing to entertain about any option, including section 8 housing to populate downtown. and even with such an alternative, i feel the odds are heavily against us. i spent 2 1/2years in DT at the metropolitan, which had to be the most expensive building, and tried to buy no less than 5 buildings, all of which were dilapidated. in oct 08, i just accepted it wasnt to be, moved to riverside and am very very happy, content. zthat being said, i still find a fire in me to make DT no less than a southern greenich village. I know we have it. the Skyway is nothing less than a state of the art fixed rail mass transit system. Such a blessing could take us to a level beyond any in the south. We need to develop a united plan all together and maintain activism to accomplish this. now i would like to hear other ideas and keep rolling, march 2011 is coming soon!

[cityimrov]

For some reason I doubt our current city leaders and citizens can make public housing work as well as this city:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_housing_in_Singapore

"The majority of the residential housing developments in Singapore  are publicly governed and developed and about 85% of Singaporeans live in such houses. HDB flats are affordable for the masses and their purchase can be financially-aided by the Central Provident Fund. The apartment flats are not actually purchased but leased in a 99 year lease-hold.

These flats are located in housing estates, which are self-contained satellite towns with schools, supermarkets, clinics, hawker centres, as well as sports and recreational facilities. There are a large variety of flat types and layouts, generally classified into three-room, four-room, five-room and executive flats (the living room counts as one room)."

[hillary supporter]

For some reason I doubt our current city leaders and citizens can make public housing work as well as this city:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_housing_in_Singapore

"The majority of the residential housing developments in Singapore  are publicly governed and developed and about 85% of Singaporeans live in such houses. HDB flats are affordable for the masses and their purchase can be financially-aided by the Central Provident Fund. The apartment flats are not actually purchased but leased in a 99 year lease-hold.

These flats are located in housing estates, which are self-contained satellite towns with schools, supermarkets, clinics, hawker centres, as well as sports and recreational facilities. There are a large variety of flat types and layouts, generally classified into three-room, four-room, five-room and executive flats (the living room counts as one room)."

shame on us.

[Ocklawaha]

i still find a fire in me to make DT no less than a southern greenich village. I know we have it. the Skyway is nothing less than a state of the art fixed rail mass transit system. Such a blessing could take us to a level beyond any in the south. We need to develop a united plan all together and maintain activism to accomplish this. now i would like to hear other ideas and keep rolling, march 2011 is coming soon!

You just GOT TO CONNECT IT!

Thank you for putting it so well. At the time the Skyway was built I would have fought anyone, anywhere, anyhow, to stop us from building what I could see was going to be a fiasco... AKA: DPM technology as a mass transit core. DPM'S are great in airports, colleges and hospitals, but that's about as far as it goes. The technology is flawed as it requires: 1. Build a highway for rubber tires, 2. Build a railway to guide the highway vehicles, 3. Build an EL or Subway to separate the whole mess from cross traffic, 4. Build a Railway style 3Rd Rail or catenary to power the darn thing, 5. Build a horizontal elevator system, with full automation...

Really Jacksonville? Wouldn't a simple vintage style streetcar system have been MUCH more effective back in 2002?  Consider we paid for 4 1/2 "streetcar systems" and that San Diego built 15 miles of LIGHT RAIL from downtown to the Mexican border for less then half the cost of our Skyway, I would seem to be vindicated.

That being said, you are correct, the SKYWAY as a MONORAIL (a wise change) makes a hell of a lot more sense and can be sped up, and expanded more economically then the DPM.. The trouble might be that now we have a technology that can easily make 55 mph and travel a couple of miles or more between stations, trying to be a horizontal elevator in the old DPM mold. Perhaps a few more downtown stations as the system expands would make sense, Brooklyn, Blue Cross, Annie Lytle, Bay & Newnan, Hyatt-Convention Center, Randolph, Stadium, Hilton, San Marco, FCJ, Health Dept, Veterans Clinic, Shand's... Beyond that, we could stretch any further expansions into several mile leaps.  I would however use a formula that FIRST rules out Commuter Rail, BRT, LRT, or Streetcar as an alternative on ANY longer distance expansion of the Skyway beyond the original goals. For those that liked my FRANCIS LYTLE SKYWAY TOD CONCEPT, you might be delighted to learn that we recently found no less then 5 Skyway route proposals that put the line within 200 feet of the old school!

Because of expense and the likelihood of several better alternatives, I really don't think we'll see any expansions beyond those original terminals (IE: Shands, Stadium, San Marco (FEC & Atlantic), Riverside (Annie), Jacksonville Terminal). In the wildest success expectation for the little monorail system, one might dream of additional lines of study including a Saint Nicholas-Memorial Hospital route, A San Marco Station-Baptist Hospital route, A new Matthews Bridge with a Stadium-JU route, and a Jacksonville Terminal-Farm Market route at which time we close the book on the Skyway, hunker down and run the wheels off the thing 24/7/365!

Remember folks, appoint me "BURGERMEISTER OF JTA" and we will see change! hee hee


OCKLAWAHA

[cityimrov]

For some reason I doubt our current city leaders and citizens can make public housing work as well as this city:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_housing_in_Singapore

"The majority of the residential housing developments in Singapore  are publicly governed and developed and about 85% of Singaporeans live in such houses. HDB flats are affordable for the masses and their purchase can be financially-aided by the Central Provident Fund. The apartment flats are not actually purchased but leased in a 99 year lease-hold.

These flats are located in housing estates, which are self-contained satellite towns with schools, supermarkets, clinics, hawker centres, as well as sports and recreational facilities. There are a large variety of flat types and layouts, generally classified into three-room, four-room, five-room and executive flats (the living room counts as one room)."

shame on us.

Just to add, Singapore is a rather unique area and had a rather strong political leadership so the comparison is a bit different.  Imagine if the US kicked out Jacksonville and we had to survive on our own with hostile enemies surrounding us and no land or natural resources to survive off of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Republic_of_Singapore  

That would be Singapore.  A city-state created by unity and necessity of survival.

[hillary supporter]

Just to add, Singapore is a rather unique area and had a rather strong political leadership so the comparison is a bit different.

Now our discussion is going somewhere. Outside the box, literally.
The only thing worse than losing our Jacquars is losing the Skyway. But, for me, stjr and others argument must be heard, my primary concern towards DT development is utilizing the Skyway, and having that  "strong political leadership" is our first step.

[JC]

I am not sure section 8 is the answer for Jacksonville.  I could understand it in a place where rents are astronomical (for substantiated reasons).  For obvious reasons, everyone benefits from having low income working class people in their community.  The problem is that developers are just too proud of their properties! 

A. The Law of Demand
The law of demand states that, if all other factors remain equal, the higher the price of a good, the less people will demand that good. In other words, the higher the price, the lower the quantity demanded. The amount of a good that buyers purchase at a higher price is less because as the price of a good goes up, so does the opportunity cost of buying that good. As a result, people will naturally avoid buying a product that will force them to forgo the consumption of something else they value more. The chart below shows that the curve is a downward slope.



Housing costs and wages are out of whack all around the state, still, but it just seems particularly shocking in DT J'ville.

Does anyone have data on how many vacant finished apartments there are and how many unfinished potential units exist?

[thelakelander]

JC, the true answer to your questions about affordable housing in DT lie with mass transit.  If you reconnect DT and the surrounding "urban neighborhoods" (they were built to accommodate three times their current density) with fixed transit (the thing that caused them to develop originally), people will be able to live the urban lifestyle and enjoy the entire core's (DT included) assets for a mix of prices.  For example, if you can't afford to live on the river, a community like a Durkeeville or Brooklyn could provide you with the same walkable lifestyle for a reduced price.  For comparison's sake, while most can't afford Manhattan, Hoboken and Jersey City are one train stop away enabling people to take advantage of Manhattan's assets without paying Manhattan style rents and mortgages.

[Jaxson]

Thanks, Stephen.  And, btw, thanks for your reply to my question.

[JC]

JC, the true answer to your questions about affordable housing in DT lie with mass transit.  If you reconnect DT and the surrounding "urban neighborhoods" (they were built to accommodate three times their current density) with fixed transit (the thing that caused them to develop originally), people will be able to live the urban lifestyle and enjoy the entire core's (DT included) assets for a mix of prices.  For example, if you can't afford to live on the river, a community like a Durkeeville or Brooklyn could provide you with the same walkable lifestyle for a reduced price.  For comparison's sake, while most can't afford Manhattan, Hoboken and Jersey City are one train stop away enabling people to take advantage of Manhattan's assets without paying Manhattan style rents and mortgages.

Yes, I agree, I am commenting on what seems to be artificially inflated prices.  I could understand having higher prices in the core if your example existed in Jacksonville, but it doesnt, not yet anyway.   

Only because of consolidation.  Despite this, in terms of absolute numbers, Miami, Tampa and Orlando all added more people.  If we were the same size as these communities, we would have probably recorded a loss right along with Memphis and Detroit.  Being consolidated helps mask the fact that we're more like misplaced rust belt city than anything else.

I think this point may apply to this thread as well.  Maybe values aren't dropping because of this masking?   

[fieldafm]

Yes, I agree, I am commenting on what seems to be artificially inflated prices.  I could understand having higher prices in the core if your example existed in Jacksonville, but it doesnt, not yet anyway.

Exactly, the current prices do not reflect reality.  The quality of life in the core does not merit today's pricing structure.  I would love living downtown, if the prices matched up with the experience.  So, for now I am content in the surrounding core neighborhoods.

[thelakelander]

I believe all make up the "core" so I tend not to try an isolate the central Northbank.  How does the pricing of the central Northbank compare with Riverside or San Marco?

[JC]

I believe all make up the "core" so I tend not to try an isolate the central Northbank.  How does the pricing of the central Northbank compare with Riverside or San Marco?

Sorry but the surrounding neighborhoods are not very desirable in my opinion.  I don't want to live in a place where a stray bullet can hit my sleeping child, or where the police kill innocent people in their own front yards.  If I were single or married with no children I would consider it but I am not going to move my children to any of those neighborhoods.  I can handle empty streets, homeless people and the occasional prostitute or drug dealer but.... meh... I dont know!

[cline]

Sorry but the surrounding neighborhoods are not very desirable in my opinion.  I don't want to live in a place where a stray bullet can hit my sleeping child, or where the police kill innocent people in their own front yards.  

I don't think the neighborhoods of Riverside and San Marco fit this description.  

[JC]

Sorry but the surrounding neighborhoods are not very desirable in my opinion.  I don't want to live in a place where a stray bullet can hit my sleeping child, or where the police kill innocent people in their own front yards.  

I don't think the neighborhoods of Riverside and San Marco fit this description.  

Yeah you are right, San Marco isnt bad Riverside is a bit spotty though.