Downtown Jacksonville Becoming Vacant

[thelakelander]

The cities were built by rail and developed around the spread of rail lines over a hundred years ago, when populations were smaller and less dense than at any time in the second half of the 20th century.

Costs were less then, the personal and public tax/debt burden was less then, we weren't a litigated society then or possessed draconian environmental protection regulations then and the systems touted on this website of "successful" low density rail transit are heavily subsidized by taxpayer money.

Walkable communities are still built by pedestrian oriented infrastructure projects today.  Just look at the evolution of Portland, Denver and San Diego over the last 30 years or Charlotte and Salt Lake City within this last decade.  Last Friday's article showed several in the making.  By the same fashion, sprawling communities are built by automobile oriented infrastructure projects.  By the way, these projects are "completely" subsidized by taxpayer money.

I know the St. Louis system is heavily subsidized and therefore, not economically self-sufficient though it possesses very high ridership numbers.

It's important to understand these projects from a holistic viewpoint instead of tunnel vision.  I think we can all agree that roads, rail, public schools, parks, etc. are not economically self-sufficient.  These are quality of life offerings that improve the places we call home.  Nevertheless, the money invested in these projects generates income in different areas (such as increasing property values/taxes, civic pride, etc.).  

Rail is the long-term answer but it is NOT a magic bullet and if not designed correctly it can have a detrimental effect on neighborhoods (again, see interstate highway system, which some US neighborhoods are ONLY now recovering from short-sighted design decisions made 40 years ago and some still have not, see East St. Louis).

There is no single magic bullet.  Yet, rail can (should) be a long and short term piece of solving a larger puzzle.  Long in terms of establishing an extensive regionalwide network and short in terms of getting something started to build upon.  I would also hope that whatever is constructed is done in a manner that is not detrimental to the areas surrounding it.  After all, using such projects to improve neighborhoods is one of the main goals for them in the first place after the destruction done to our community by the highway system.

[trigger]

Yes rail is hard to do when compared to all those self sufficient revenue producing roads that have done so well curbing sprawl.

Who do you think makes rail 'hard to do'? We do. We're trapped in a prison of our own making. I hear plenty of people talking the talk but there are few who are really walking the walk (because it's easier to drive).

[thelakelander]

Provide the reliable user friendly transit system and then lets see what really happens.  In Salt Lake City, Charlotte, Houston, Phoenix, Denver and San Diego, ridership numbers exceeded initial estimates proving naysayers wrong and stimulating walkable economic development in the process.  Those places have become what we aren't......successful.  Since their initial lines (short term goal), all of these places have (or are currently working) expanded their systems (long term goal).  Really all of this boils down to what this community wants to be.  If it really wants a vibrant urban core and the benefits that come with it, we're going to have to invest in the things that create these environments.  If we want to see downtown continue to fall apart and urban neighborhoods to continue to drop in density and building fabric, then we should just keep doing what we have for the last 60 years.

[tufsu1]

I know you have this fixation with the meters, but they are a very smal part of the bigger picture....notice I encompassed several neighborhoods into InTown Jax....there are no meters in Riverside, San Marco, and Springfield currently...and there are people who live downtown (both northbank and southbank)...almost everyone has off-street parking.

yeah, tufsu, and no matter how much you rebrand something, if its a toxic product then it wont sell.  none of the rest of those districts are having a problem generating new tenants, you know.

here's what I don't get....you speak up about wanting to stop funding roads with your tax dollars...yet you're opposed to one of the few situations where user fees are put on the automobile.

I can ssure you that transit is not made more successful by making it easier to operate a car.

[tufsu1]

Are you suggesting that once we get good mass tranit downtown, you can re-install the meters?  If so, good luck with that!

May I suggest reading the book, "The High Cost of Free Parking".

[tufsu1]

if need be, sure.
Stephen...I'm totally fine with modernizing the meters or even having 1-hour and 2-hour free parking on certain streets....but to allow free parking w/ no restrictions on downtown streets would be chaos.

Maybe we should have a pilot program....try a month-long "meter-free period"....and then see what happens....my guess ios people will complain that they can't find a space because office workers park their car in the same spot all day.

[fieldafm]

I can say, that on the few times I am able to stop downtown for lunch... I either patronize Russ Does, City Hall Pub, or the Landing... all b/c of parking.  I'd love to do Zodiac, NOLA, Skyline, and others more if I wasn't so worried about lunch costing me a parking ticket.

[fsujax]

my only gripe with the meters is I wish they accepted all types of currency or cc and allowed parking for longer than an hour, I never have any problems finding a spot to park on the street....then again I am not afraid of walking a block or two or riding the Skyway.

[fieldafm]

I agree, finding an open meter is real easy... but, I'm never the one that carries coins and my weekday trips downtown always seem to last more than an hour.

That is a definate deterrant to coming downtown weekdays before 6pm... I work in the Southside area, and my co-workers all voice that same opinion.  We actually had quite a few people that were required to go downtown recently to the UPS store to get fingerprinted.  I distributed an email to them detailing about the hour limits and having quarters to feed the meters(not dimes or nickels)... and sure enough, five of them received tickets.  None of those receiving tickets will ever go back downtown during the weekday b/c of it.

[tufsu1]

if need be, sure.
Stephen...I'm totally fine with modernizing the meters or even having 1-hour and 2-hour free parking on certain streets....but to allow free parking w/ no restrictions on downtown streets would be chaos.

Maybe we should have a pilot program....try a month-long "meter-free period"....and then see what happens....my guess ios people will complain that they can't find a space because office workers park their car in the same spot all day.

poppycock

I'm willing to give it a test run....are you saying you're not willng to try it out?

[ChriswUfGator]

I agree, finding an open meter is real easy... but, I'm never the one that carries coins and my weekday trips downtown always seem to last more than an hour.

+1

Everybody says this same thing. There's tons of parking downtown, it's never hard to find a spot. The problem is that every trip downtown you wind up with a $15 parking ticket, which in my case pisses me off bad enough that I rarely go down there. The only time I go downtown anymore is to the courthouse, and occasionally to Nola for lunch.

These meters are ridiculous, nobody carries coins anymore. It's outdated to the extreme. And, as everyone except one person seems to recognize, most people would be there for more time than you can buy on those meters. It's just a rigged system designed to generate parking ticket revenue, except even then COJ has mismanaged it so badly that it doesn't make any money.

Which then begs the question of WTF's the point? It's not controlling "chaos," that argument is hogwash, there are already 3 or 4 parking spaces available for every 1 person downtown (look at the statistics on parking utilization rates published by MJ), so who cares if you took the meters out, there's still plenty of parking.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but if you look at comparable urban revitalizations, the successful ones usually always incorporate the elimination or scaleback of paid parking and enforcement. You can even bring it back once the area comes back, but if you're enforcing the hell out of it and nickel and diming everyone in a blighted area, then people just go somewhere else. It's not like there isn't plenty of other stuff to do around here that isn't downtown...

[JeffreyS]

If you are worried about a ticket just park in one of the many hourly parking garages in downtown.  I think we should ditch the meters and go with limit 2 hour signs that work in Riverside and San Marco.

[tufsu1]

If you are worried about a ticket just park in one of the many hourly parking garages in downtown. 

what a novel idea

[Debbie Thompson]

Here's a user story about the Skyway and downtown parking.  Until recently, I worked downtown. For the first two years, I parked in the Johnson St lot at the convention center and rode the Skyway to Central Station, by AT&T, which was a 1-1/2 block walk to my employer.  It was about a block or so in distance from my parking space to the Skyway as well. No big deal, not far. But I had to get there by 7:30 or 7:40 at the very latest to make it to my desk by 8:00.  It was a little uncomfortable on cold or wet days, but I felt the cost savings made up for it.  On two occasions, the Skyway broke down and JTA sent a shuttle to pick up the riders.  This made me about 15 minutes late to work. Fortunately for me, my employer didn't mind. But for another lady I chatted with, when she came in late for only the 2nd time in two years, her employer told her she'd better find somewhere else to park because another tardiness would cost her job. She had to abandon the Skyway.

After about two years, my employer upped their employee parking stipend by $30 per month.  At that time, I treated myself to a parking place in our building's garage. I was able to drive inside in all kinds of weather and arrive at 7:55 to get to my desk by 8:00.  The parking space cost me $90 per month, or the same price as my first apartment to park my 12-year-od compact car. :-)  But with the parking benefit, it was affordable, so I was glad to pay it.  However, it is costing my employer $70 for each employee that works downtown, plus higher downtown rents.

Where I am now, the rents are less, and parking is outside the door.

Over a year ago, Elton, the hot dog vendor on the corner of Laura and Forsyth, who had been there for 10 years, told me business had slowed down so much, he could hardly make it. That everyone was moving out.  Last time I was downtown, I saw the Zodiac has closed.  Dont' know why, but it's gone.  I love living and working downtown, but I understand why it's emptying out.

[Ethylene]

The Zodiac is thriving 4-5 doors east of their previous location on Adams! They have a full bar and also serve dinner now.