Jacksonville bus shelters delayed by lack of interest

[kells904]

From the article:


How hard is it to build and maintain a bus shelter?  After all, it's not a nuclear power plant.  Why not give the local guy a chance and building and maintaining a limited number of shelters to see how it goes.  Even that is better than people roasting in the sun until the economy improves in a couple of years.

My sentiments exactly.  How not one person of consequence in an entire "Agency" thought of this makes my inner child cry.

[Charles Hunter]

And had JTA gone with the unproven company, and the shelters were poorly built and not maintained, everyone here (me, too) would be screaming that they were fools to give it to a brand new company with no experience.  Didn't the article say the RFP required one year experience, and this firm is only a few months old?  Haven't we been there with contracts from the Mayor's Office to start up, unqualified companies?

Oh, and JTA is a state agency, but gets City money (see the discussion about the local gas tax and sales tax).  Their Board has 3 appointed by the Mayor, 3 by the Governor, and the 7th is the head of the DOT regional office.  Sort of a hybrid.

[tufsu1]

Can I say "I told you so!"?  Go back and read the bus shelter ad posts by myself and some of the JTA lackeys that lurk here and see who predicted this outcome.

I agree that this is kind of sad...but a few comments:

1. You previously noted that JTA was going to build these shelters...and would beon the hook when the ad $ didn't come in...I mentioned that this was not the case and if it wasn't profitable for private companies, no one would respons to the bid

2. Someone did respond to the bid (btw not getting enough qualified responses is quite common)....and as Charles has noted, many would have complained strongly if a nopn-qualified company was selected

3. As others have noted, it has taken ATL more than 2 yers to implement their new shelters...anyone who thinks transit projects happen quickly doesn't know much about transit.

[thelakelander]

Why not give the local guy a chance and building and maintaining a limited number of shelters to see how it goes.

Would this be possible?  Could a new company purchase shelters specified by JTA from a proven manufacturer?  That would eliminate the idea of a poorly built structure and leave it up to the private company to maintain. If he can't maintain a small limited number, then so be it.  It just seems that even with a newcomer, safeguards could be put in to protect JTA's interest.  By outright rejecting the only bidder, the people who continue to suffer the most are the riders.  It has been pretty toasty the last few days.  Shelters would have been nice regardless of whether they are maintained by John Doe, Lamar or CBS Outdoor.

[thelakelander]

3. As others have noted, it has taken ATL more than 2 yers to implement their new shelters...anyone who thinks transit projects happen quickly doesn't know much about transit.

That was pretty quick.  We've been on this shelter thing for something like five years now.

[tufsu1]

3. As others have noted, it has taken ATL more than 2 yers to implement their new shelters...anyone who thinks transit projects happen quickly doesn't know much about transit.

That was pretty quick.  We've been on this shelter thing for something like five years now.

true...but the anti-ad people convinced City Council to vote against it twice

[stjr]

1. You previously noted that JTA was going to build these shelters...and would beon the hook when the ad $ didn't come in...

Tufsu, I recall that I raised the question about who was building the shelters and who would be on the hook if JTA built them and an ad company didn't show up to pay for them.  JTA never made clear what the actual business plan was so I could never conclude for sure who was building them.

2. Someone did respond to the bid (btw not getting enough qualified responses is quite common)....and as Charles has noted, many would have complained strongly if a nopn-qualified company was selected

Fact appears to be that NO QUALIFIED companies (i.e. meeting JTA specs) applied.  That's a big zero, Tufsu.

3. As others have noted, it has taken ATL more than 2 yers to implement their new shelters...anyone who thinks transit projects happen quickly doesn't know much about transit.

Hmmm...apparently, City Council proponents, as well as some posting on MJ, thought we would have shelters popping up during this summer.  Excuses, excuses.... JTA misleads and disappoints again.  Nothing you say Tufsu can change that.

By the way, found this post of mine from October 27, 2009  (post #71, http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,5738.60.html):

I expect a decent probability of JTA disappointing and/or looking foolish when all the details come out on this. I noticed they didn't publicize in the press any examples of shelters to be funded or the amount of proceeds per shelter they expect to get.

And this from November 11, 2009 (post #102, http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,5738.90.html):

How does the revenue brought in from ads match up with the expenses of building and maintaining the shelters? For all we know, this could just be a JTA pipe dream.  "Show us the money!"

...JTA isn't shooting straight with us.  Starting with the fallacious bus stop and maintenance numbers and relying on an attorney with a conflict of interest to disregard outside experts about billboard issues.  And, continuing on with the above.  The number of gullible and unquestioning public officials we have is why Jax can't ever dig out of some of these holes.

So, where to go from here?  I repeat one of many possibilities (January 12, 2010, Post #136, http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,5738.135.html):

So, JTA had about $85 million in cash (non-depreciation, for Tufsu) operating expenditures ($68.5 million for buses) and another $174 million in governmental fund expenditures in 2007/08.  And, they can't find less than $500,000 for bus shelter maintenance in support of a core mission of bus service?  That's less than 1% of just the bus system cash expenses, taken alone.  Really, now, less than 1%.  How hard could that be?

By the way, we are still waiting for JTA's 2008/2009 annual report.  Any JTA lovers here have the answer why it's still not posted on JTA's web site?

[Ocklawaha]

The whole snafu is found in the following quote from The Lakelander.

specified by JTA

JTA is such a dinosaur that it specified everything but the bolt size and thus if there is ANY failure the onus falls back on the "Idiot that designed them."  The new school would have JTA specify ONLY the expected result or benefit from the shelters with a few broad guidelines, nothing more.

How does it work?

EXAMPLE:
MJ orders a motor coach to use in travel and covering the city's news... We specify every nut, bolt, washer, watt, resistor, cam, piston, etc...

When it's delivered it is a colossal failure, when we call the factory they are going to say, "HEY WE BUILT IT TO YOUR SPECS!"

MJ orders a motor coach to use in travel and covering the city's news... We specify the benefits we expect from said coach, ie: powerful AC more then enough to wipe away 112 degree days, snack and coffee bar, lounge, recliners etc...

When it's delivered and the AC fails to keep it cool, we can go back to the factory and say "HEY WE TOLD YOU heavy duty AC, nice try but it doesn't meet our implied specs?"

In effect move the ball to their court and the smaller company wouldn't have made such a difference. When I become burgermeister of JTA, we'll use RESULT DRIVEN SPECS AND BIDS, rather then OUR OWN SPEC DRIVEN BIDS.


OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

Is it a surprise that after holding up construction of these shelters for the entire duration of the High, until the very last gasp of the economy lay panting in the worst downturn since the great depression, that there isnt enough advertising dollars to make it work right now?  Of course not.

Yet the very people who are the most to blame for not getting some built while there were funds available to do it are the ones crowing over their 'victory'.

Disgusting.

Stephen, another night of nasty spinning and sulking, huh?  And, more mixing apples and oranges when logic fails you.

The only "victory" is that JTA predictably bungled another of its core responsibilities proving its critics once again correct in questioning the competency of JTA in nearly everything JTA does.  If shelters are not built, only JTA is to blame, not those concerned about protecting our hard-fought-for sign ordinance.  It was, after all, JTA's plan that was approved, JTA's promises to deliver, and JTA's job to execute JTA's approved plan.

But, rather than hold JTA accountable, it appears you are conducting your irrelevant sideshows again, suggesting that those who opposed changing the advertising ordinance to allow bus shelter ads and not endanger our billboard and other sign restrictions are against bus shelters.  Of course, nothing could be further from the truth and you offer not one shred of evidence to back up your inferences.  All you know is that some people don't agree with you and that's an excuse for another tantrum and the irrational demonizing of those who differ with you.

After joining others in declaring ads as the great salvation of bringing bus shelters to Jax bus riders, you are suddenly not surprised that it failed?  Well, I warned you last October that JTA was headed for disaster, and that was after they were well on their way to running roughshod over their "ADversaries" to get approval for ads.  The only reason for failure is none other than your friends at JTA.  This whole program was never properly researched, vetted, and planned, plain and simple.  Just as I suggested all along.

[thelakelander]

Stjr, the idea of ads on shelters aren't the problem here.  That's a proven method that has been applied in a ton of communities across the country.  I'd be more interested in taking a closer look at JTA's specs and decision makers.  Unfortunately, there seems to be a lack of creativity on multiple fronts.

[CS Foltz]

Stjr, the idea of ads on shelters aren't the problem here.  That's a proven method that has been applied in a ton of communities across the country.  I'd be more interested in taking a closer look at JTA's specs and decision makers.  Unfortunately, there seems to be a lack of creativity on multiple fronts.

lake.........I have to agree with your take on this one! JTA has proven over and over, management lacks vision or a plan for something as simple as a "Shelter"! Going the MIL spec route is not only redundant but violates the mandate under which Jacksonville Transit Authority is supposed to operate under! I can understand why they did, but do not agree with that concept! The disconnect between JTA and the taxpayers is just exaggerated...........I guess I should point out, just how many companies actually bid on this, advertising not withstanding?