Why Build A Streetcar in Jacksonville?

[JeffreyS]

Our biggest problem, along with a drastic lack of funds, is the City lacks the will to implement any system beyond $kyway and BRT! The powers that be lack the vision as well as means to go in the right direction, but that should change with the next administration! Atleast we can hope so!

I am tiring of your constant complaints about what the City, JTA, FDOT, etc. can't do right and how much things cost....I thought you were a transit propoenent, but yet you rip apart the Skyway and BRT...so please provide us with some solid ideas that you would support and at what financial level they would be acceptable.

I think the part people do not see is that we are moving forward on this even if we have not committed to funding it. The Mobility plan is a great step if we take it. The studies and leg work we put off for so long have been happening the last couple of years.  Members pat yourselves on the back MJ has been a catalyst and the ball is rolling but it is not in the goal yet.

[hillary supporter]

I am tiring of your constant complaints about what the City, JTA, FDOT, etc. can't do right and how much things cost....I thought you were a transit proponent, but yet you rip apart the Skyway and BRT...so please provide us with some solid ideas that you would support and at what financial level they would be acceptable.
Posted on: Today at 02:11:18 PM

Yeah, we need to come up with concrete results (not proposals) to, in essence, save Skyway and move ahead with BRT. Im thinking to generate usage of Skyway by implementing residential activity in downtown which will willingly use Skyway, increase its numbers for local legislators to take note and change directions towards Jax mass transit.

the metro area isn't in dire need of alternative ways to transport people

Yes, thats true. And proven by the terrible numbers of riders that use Skyway. And not large numbers for public buss es, a form of mass transit lets not forget. I cant go at local govt for opposing mass transit development with such being the only solid evidence of local usage.

[Jason]

Exactly, Jacksonville's population is at the tipping point for supporting mass transit. And if we don't get a plan implemented and start directing growth in such a manner to support it we'll be much worse off.

Enact the mobility plan and support it.  Provide the necessary transit enhancements as they are needed.  Simple.

[thelakelander]

There is no tipping point to reach. Mass transit built this city and it can still work in the city.  However, it has to be designed and operated in a manner that makes it an attractive, reliable service in the areas of the city that it serves.  Do that and we'll enjoy the success a smaller city like Salt Lake City is having.  Don't and we'll be......Jacksonville.

[gridsketch]

What this discussion thread lacks is the social component of mass transit and i don't just refer to upcoming political elections. Yes we've been discussing density issues but unless we stop subsidizing suburban growth downtown will suffer in all respects: residential, commercial and transit. The Happy Motoring culture of not just Jacksonville but the entire nation is what's the real problem. Cheap gas, cheap land, bad zoning that encourages greenfield development is killing Jacksonville's density. I remember the discussion i the 80's about white flight from downtown and the white middle class trying to avoid failing schools and integration and public school busing. Well the black people have downtown now to. They've also decided to start participating in happy motoring, suburban culture of America as well albeit in an essentially segregated region of our city. We are training our citizens to not walk. Development have no sidewalks, houses are set back, building codes require huge parking lots. People are getting in their cars just to go to the mailbox.

I think peak oil is going to become the motivating for all these issues. And all those hipster/hippies that are moving downtown and trying to snap up cheap properties on their own, are going to rule this place because they'll be able to walk/bike to their sustainable gardens, farmer's markets and cooperative that make things by hand.

Go play a game of Sim City for a few hours. You'll quickly learn that monorails come last in the development of a game/city. Jacksonville for the past 60 years has been set on Advanced difficulty while being played by newbie level planners. Pretty soon we'll need to start bring in gambling casinos and taking in garbage on barges from New York to pay for poor urban planning.

Stop letting people build so far a way, and stop building more roads and highways. When people get fed up with sitting in commuter traffic they'll start begging for smaller, closer, denser living.

[hillary supporter]

What this discussion thread lacks is the social component of mass transit and i don't just refer to upcoming political elections.

Welcome to the thread, Gridsketch. And welcome to Sightseer lounge. The more we have, the better we are.
I feel there is a strong unity of all of us on the social implications gridsketch describes. Whats crucial is to develop a  concrete plan to win municipal support for fixed mass transit. Selecting the appropriate leadership in the upcoming elections, IMO, seems essential. The past mayoral administration has been "ineffective" in moving forward towards fixed mass transit in jax. Such is my point in this thread.

[SightseerLounge]

Personally, I would want one type of rail on the system, but anything is better than nothing! I'll ride!

There is no such thing as "one size fits all" with mass transit.   Transit modes should be used that complement and integrate the best with whatever corridor or environment their designed to serve.  In Jax, this could mean that the skyway serves downtown while a streetcar is more suitable for Riverside/Avondale, commuter rail for Orange Park and BRT for Regency.  As long as the agency running the services can make seamless transferring a possibility, multiple modes aren't a problem.

They still complain, in some places in NYC, that there aren't enough transfers to all of the systems that are currently available. Lakelander, I agree that there isn't that "one size fits all" system! I would love something like Miami to be here in Jacksonville. The Skyway has its purpose. The rest of the potential system isn't built yet. A streetcar would be perfect for some areas in town!.

I would love to ride to St. John's Town Center from, say, Wesconnett. It would probably take a while, but the system would be there. As for the social part, the people just have to be awakened. If the streetcars would have been left in some of the places that they were located, maybe the visual of "streetcar" would be in peoples heads!

People would feel weird riding, and the mental aspect (culture) of riding would be there!

Streetcars and Skyways...There is a positive thing that I like about the skyway! I remember being at Kinkos downtown and the Skyway passed. All that I could remember thinking was, "That thing is much quieter than those els in NYC and Philly!"

If the streetcars didn't interrupt the car culture (at first), and they were efficient (and somewhat quiet), then, they could be of use!

[AaroniusLives]

I would love something like Miami to be here in Jacksonville.

As a former Miamian (born and raised,) you do not want to emulate the Miami model for transit whatsoever. The Miami "MetroFail" is poorly used, poorly maintained, and massive corruption has resulted in the line not running to either the beach or the airport.

The "People's Transportation Plan" has resulted in a lot of tax money gone "missing" and a mere, teeny-tiny link line to the airport (sort of.) And by tax money I mean billions.

The Miami Metromover, or the Miami version of the SkyWay, basically encourages people not to walk two to three blocks on actual urban streets. I went to a magnet high school in downtown Miami...the Metromover doesn't really add much to the mix, beyond the fugly pylons that hold it up. I'll give it this: it's the cheapest tourist attraction in all of Florida.

All of this corruption has resulted in a metropolitan area that needs mass transit (they are well past the tipping point for density and development,) but won't get the mass transit they need. It took 20 years for the voters to get over the MetroFail. It will take another 20 to get over the People's Transportation Plan.

Oy. Never wish for a transit system like MIAMI'S! ? ! ? !


Actually, the county I'd watch down there would be Broward. The county is generally well-run, fiscally conservative, and slowly realizing the need for better, more effective mass transit. I suspect that they'll go with a BRT system, but at least it will run to the damned airport and beach! 

[stjr]

The Miami Metromover, or the Miami version of the SkyWay, basically encourages people not to walk two to three blocks on actual urban streets. I went to a magnet high school in downtown Miami...the Metromover doesn't really add much to the mix, beyond the fugly pylons that hold it up. I'll give it this: it's the cheapest tourist attraction in all of Florida.

Aaronius, I'd swear I've heard that same talk in some quarters about our Skyway.  But, some here say the concept is a Jax problem, not a people mover problem.  Lake thinks the Metromover is a success (even though the ridership numbers are a pittance, given Miami's population, and they are riding it for free).  Also, not sure what the Miami system was projected to carry versus actual since no one has answered that question yet.

[CS Foltz]

Heads up there stjr..................I expect tufsu to weigh in on this one! I await with baited breath to see how this is going to be spun!

[tufsu1]

yes I wil weigh in

stjr is constantly providing a moving target....what does ridership compared to metro. pop. have to do w/ anything? 

I ask because you say streetcars are the way to go here in Jax....but my guess is a 10 mile system that covers Riverside-Downtown-Stadium-Springfield would still average no more than 20,000 riders a day...so if ridership is a major factor, why would $100 million for streetcars be "more successful" than $100 million spent at the I-95/JTB interchange (with over 200,000 vehicles per day)?

[thelakelander]

A streetcar system connecting these neighborhoods would be lucky to average 10k a day.  Yet ridership isn't the most important element with mass transit, imo. The true benefit would come in the creation of a sustainable urban core and the building of an urban living alternative that doesn't exist in our sprawling city today.

[tufsu1]

I agree Lake...juts curious what STJR and CS think are most important?

[stjr]

I agree Lake...juts curious what STJR and CS think are most important?

Tufsu, it is cost/benefit or in, plain English, "bang for the buck".  Priorities should be set accordingly.

Your $100 million comparison is wrong.  The streetcar price is for a new system including both the pathway AND the passenger vehicles.  The JTB interchange is a tiny slice of a much bigger system to which it is adding to and EXCLUDES the passenger vehicles.  You also need to allocate some of the hundreds of millions (billions?) spent on building JTB and a few miles on I-95 that necessitate the need for the interchange.

Once you have a more accurate comparison of costs, weight them against the relative passenger miles.  By example, 20,000 people going 2 miles on a streetcar = 40,000 passenger miles.  200,000 people going in an interchange loop, say 0.2 forward miles, is an equal 40,000 passenger miles.

We haven't even considered other "costs" to society such as energy, environmental, collateral development, infrastructure, commute times, and quality of life.

Tufsu, your simplistic analysis is why we have so many roads and so little mass transit and bespeaks what one expects from a road builder.

[CS Foltz]

I could not have said it better stjr! Rider miles and Ridership miles are two different categories, but I don't speak "Consulting"! I speak in plain language or black and white............quite a bit of difference between the two for sure! Rail would give the taxpayer more bang for the mile, the operating cost and the spin off infrastructure is something that is measureable looking at other rail systems and the spinoffs that took place!