Why Build A Streetcar in Jacksonville?

[tufsu1]

so is it better to scrap the system CS....or perhaps develop and implement a vision for downtown around it?

[hillary supporter]

Great discussion! stjr brings important points that bear merit. it seems the best immediate plan to pursue is development and implementation of the vision for downtown, as tufsu suggests.
The city seems so spread out that rapid fixed mass transit appears a challenging task. mass transit needs a strong residential presence to be successful , in our case. DC metro system works as mass commute corridors in an area of several million, not dependent on a residential population .  Jax population is not there,though foresight should  be used.
The most important and crucial step one concerned with mass transit ( and development of our metropolitan city) is the mayoral elections next year. Forgive me for repeating myself, our key to moving forward on this issue all of us consider dear is the democratic candidate, Glorious Johnson. Early participation in her campaign will achieve her support for jax mass transit.

[Coolyfett]

hmmmm

[Ocklawaha]

The initial skyway ridership numbers assumed a ton of things that did not happen.  These include:

1. A route that connected destinations like Shands Jacksonville with DT.  Instead the route was modified to go from no where to no where.

2. That downtown would continue to grow and densify. The exact opposite happened.

3. That parking garages would not be continued to be constructed with nearly every major project in DT.  The exact opposite happened.  We love our garages.  Its 2010 and the Mayor's Office and JEDC still want to build more (see Landing parking issue).

4. That a regional wide rail system would feed it with riders.  Still waiting on that rail system.

After all of this, why expect different results?

1. Actually Shand's, St. Vincent's, Baptist with a Memorial hospital option complete with special patient transfer and EMS monorail cars.

2. Remember during the Godbold Administration we were literally painting the streets downtown. The urban core became the centerpiece of dozens of events such as "World of Nations." Golf camp for kids down at Friendship Park was free and included a kid size iron or driver, and personal instruction on the range that was set up over the river by none other then the King and the Bear themselves! JTA and COJ captured the Jaguars and we had every reason to believe Jacksonville was about to shift into a Tier One City.  Overly oppmistic yes, but based on ether? NO.

3. Actually the garages would RING the downtown but not be used as infill. The Skyway would provide access from the second or third floor with each station housed WITHIN the structure. Immediately around the platforms would be essential services, c-store, gift shop, flowers, cleaner/tailor, snacks, fast food, lockers, game rooms, etc...  Driving downtown would be considered a thing of the past with some avenues limited to buses and Skyway.  Sidewalk cafe's and pedestrian friendly walkable spaces would spring up under the guideway. NOTHING OLD SCHOOL was going to interfere with the "vision" resulting in scraping 4 remaining streetcars and telling their most vocal supporter to LEAVE TOWN!

4. Regional Rail would probably be "Modern Futuristic Monorails."

Stjr, if the Skyway doesn't get more than 2,000 riders per day as it is with no connection to he residential neighborhoods...just how many people do you think are going to walk on the dang thing?

While NYC's High Line may have helped revitalized some of the areas, an elevated walkway in place of the Skyway will not have the same affect.

I get that you want the money bleed to stop but you're advocating a system that will greatly drop in utilization, remove a transit option for many, have minimal impact on the investment surrounding it and still require annual funding for upkeep and maintenance.

If it will cost $25 million to convert the Skyway system to an elevated walkway, why not spend that $25 million and extend the thing to a location that will have a massive improvement on ridership levels?

Exactly Jim! Not only will no one walk on it, I can see the lawyers having a field day with jumpers families, homeland security and talk about unsightly. Can't you just see it now, all landscaped with a 15 foot high chain-link net over the top running through the heart of downtown? Ooh Wow!

You are right that this wouldn't work for the Skyway nor for Jacksonville in general as it is believed a community should first discover the sidewalk, pedestrian signaling, curbs and safety islands before building a flying paseo across downtown.

Your $25 Million should get the Skyway down to Atlantic just west of the Florida East Coast Railway in San Marco, almost the exact site of the FEC Railway's "SOUTH JACKSONVILLE" train station.  Amtrak has already expressed an interest in sattelite stations in the Jacksonville MSA (Baldwin, Yukon, South Jacksonville) and any commuter rail system would have to serve SAN MARCO-SAINT NICHOLAS. A multi-modal interchange station at South Jacksonville, and another North of Shand's on the "S" line reconstruction and the Skyway would capture many of the inbound commuters as well as those headed for the hospitals and VA and public health clinics.

Aaah, Jim, to your last comment.... the Skyway was supposed to get some 30,000/day with what ALREADY EXISTS, no further connections necessary.  And, its over 90% short of that!  Therein, is a major fallacy to the expansion argument.  We will just be chasing more rainbows with another expansion.[/b]

Actually the figure was 56,000 a day, which was lowered to 32,000, and again to 18,000, then to 17,000, and recalculated to 10,000, and finally adjusted to 8,000! This was based on the original phase one segment AND THE PARKING GARAGES, WITH THE SKYWAY RUNNING SHUTTLES, EACH GARAGE WOULD HAVE HAD THE PERKS OUTLINED ABOVE. Expansion was NOT needed to achieve some of those numbers but the Garage "System" went either unbuilt, built in the wrong locations, and built without Skyway access or amenities.

Ponder this:

1. Approve a proper streetcar plan that includes Downtown, Riverside, Springfield/Shands via Main/8Th/Boulevard, LaVilla/Myrtle/Beaver Street, the Stadium area via a Duval/Beaver alignment, and San Marco via the MAIN STREET BRIDGE using ramps to and from Riverplace.  Streetcars are light enough that they CAN usually be placed on older bridges retrofitted with rails - the entire application being light and the cars weighing 1/2 ro 2/3Rd's of what a hybrid bus weighs.

2. Build the entire streetcar system in 6  block = 60 day construction phases, starting with its core Downtown.

3. Promise taxpayers that as the streetcar system comes on line Downtown, the Skyway will be adjusted to coordinate with the streetcars, trains, buses and BRT as one seamless system.

4. When the streetcars start rolling, the Skyway should pause to replace the Junction at LaVilla with something more operationally friendly.  Perhaps the Skyway stations that eat into existing city blocks (most of which are devoid presently of buildings) could be incorporated into new buildings on those blocks so that more inter-connective uses could be derived.  Floor space within the stations themselves should be developed and leased otherwise premiums could be placed on sidewalk space under the guideway.

We need start taking what we have and making more of it - not necessarily with (just) money, but creativity and vision.  Other cites do it successfully, why not us?[/b]

Streetcars can be added to the north and south banks, but there isnt a way to connect them from the North and South banks, that is where the Skyway comes into play. The Skyway happens to be the only transit option across the river other then bus. Once a Streetcar line is integrated with the Skyway it will surely become more used.

Not quite Mattius, streetcars are light enough that the track structure doesn't have to be 2 or 3 feet deep, in fact some applications have placed streetcars in service with under 12" inches of pavement removal.  A retro-fitting on the Main Street Bridge should work, as would the Acosta, but it's elevations and speeds would cause me some reservation. Other then this, you are right on this issue as you continue to display a rare sense of transit knowledge. Keep up the good work!

I also drive down beach, Atlantic, Baymeadows, and JTB.  These are all tools for getting citizens of Jacksonville from point A to point B.  In that regard, the skyway does a much better job than the other options.  It gets me from point A to point B with minimal interruptions, no traffic, and no frustration. 

To be honest here Captain, Atlantic, Baymeadows and JTB, were not built to move the citizens of Jacksonville anywhere nor do they.  The roadway system moves AUTOMOBILES from point A to point B, the SKYWAY and other mass transit modes move people with the refinements in travel that you so adeptly outlined. 

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

As for the assertion that the Skyway is "Complete as built" this is completely false. From 1974 through the start of construction the Skyway people commissioned 14 different routes for study. NONE of the recommended routes were ever built and while the planners assumed a 90 degree turn East at the foot of Hogan street on the majority of the plans none of the projections foresaw JTA turning West at the same intersection to an empty railroad station.  Likewise the second phase, conversion to monorail and Southbank extension should never have been touted as the all in all answer as the little system still runs back and forth in the bottom of a barrel. 

The most modest thinkers should be able to understand that a parking shuttle that never leaves a parking lot is pretty useless. In the case of the Skyway, we looped through the "parking lot" and then added another phase to loop through MORE of the "parking lot". Whenever expansion is mentioned as a means to lift the system into useability a thousand howls go up stating that we haven't met our ridership projections and through some logic the system has failed us. So here we stand, car keys in hand, waiting for a Skyway to carry us to the promised land when all we have done is lay some track around the CBD. Until the day that we can park those cars, and ride the Skyway to a recognizable place or destination it will continue to be as useful as tit's on a bull.


OCKLAWAHA

[Mattius92]

Until the day that we can park those cars, and ride the Skyway to a recognizable place or destination it will continue to be as useful as tit's on a bull.

haha, and that is true. The anti-skyway poeple need to understand that the Skyway was never built like it needed to be built so therefore it has been pretty useless. If JTA and the COJ actually start building a transit system like we need things will be so much better.

[thelakelander]

It makes no sense to fight 20 miles of traffic to then park in a garage to go the last 1/2 mile on the skyway.  If we can get commuter rail and streetcars off the ground and integrated with the skyway, we can have the option to leave our cars right in our driveways and garages.

[stjr]

As for the assertion that the Skyway is "Complete as built" this is completely false.

System complete.  JTA OFFICIAL EXPLANATION, 2002:  Failure of Skyway due to "economic recessions".   Not ONE word about need for further expansion or plans for same to make it achieve any goals. Federal officials say it was built for "political" reasons, not "transportation" reasons.

How quickly some people forget.  Plain and simple, a pork barrel project that typifies wasteful government spending.  Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me!

Read it for yourselves at ABC World News, 2002:

$200 Million Ride to Nowhere
Almost No One Is Riding $200 Million Skyway
By Charles Herman

J A C K S O N V I L L E, Fla., July 29

The 2.5-mile Jacksonville Automated Skyway Express is a model of efficiency. Completely automated and controlled from a central operation center, the Skyway makes eight stops throughout the northeastern Florida city that is split in two by the St. John's River.

The only problem: hardly anyone rides it.

"It's strictly a waste of money from beginning to end," decried longtime Jacksonville critic Marvin Edwards. He blames the builder and supporter of the Skyway, the Jacksonville Transportation Authority (JTA).

"They lied about ridership projections," explained Edwards. "They said 56,000 a day at first, then dropped that to 30,000, then last it was 18,000 to 19,000."

Currently, the Skyway sees 3,000 riders per day who pay 35 cents a trip. In fiscal 2001, the Skyway brought in $513,694 in revenue but its expenses were $3.5 million.

Fights for Funding

The Skyway was first proposed back in 1971. It took more than a decade before the funding  federal, state and local  could be secured to start construction. At the time, the goal was mainly for development so the Skyway to connect the downtown core with parking facilities away from downtown.

The Jacksonville Skyway was part of three demonstration projects to see if "people-mover" systems could stimulate business expansion in downtown centers. Detroit and Miami received federal funds for similar projects.

Some officials within the Department of Transportation's Federal Transit Authority questioned the ridership projections for the Jacksonville Skyway.

In an interview with ABCNEWS' John Martin in 1994, Federal Transit Administration official Gordon Linton said, "We and this department, this administration and previous administrations, have not supported it."

Nevertheless, Congress eventually provided more than half the funds for the $182 million Skyway.

In 1987 construction began on the first 0.7-mile portion of the system.

"It was mainly for political reasons, not transportation reasons," explained former Rep. Bob Carr, who chaired the committee that approved funding for transportation projects in the early 1990s. "Like so many projects, they get a camel's nose under the tent and then it gets very very difficult to stop them."

Few Riders From the Start

In 1989 the first section was completed and opened to the public. Jacksonsville's transit leaders projected more than 10,000 people would ride the Skyway a day on this 0.7-mile starter section.

Instead, only 1,200 rode the Skyway.

In 1993 Transit Authority member Miles Francis defended the system to ABCNEWS. "Until this thing is finished, there's no way to measure its performance or its potential."

Now it's finished and the Jacksonville Transit Authority is still waiting for the riders to come.

Open for Business

In November 2000, the complete Skyway opened to the public. Nearly two years later, with ridership at an average of 3,000 a day, the Skyway has not met even the projections for the starter section.

"No one will argue with the fact that ridership is not where we would like it to be," admitted Steve Arrington, director of engineering with the Jacksonville Transit Authority. He says the lack of riders is attributed to economic recessions in downtown Jacksonville in the early 1990s that led to a decrease in development in the area.

"Any number of things predicted to occur that didn't occur development-wise has an effect," he added. "Fuel prices, parking prices."

Arrington still believes in the Skyway and expects to reach its ridership goals. "You don't build a system like this or a roadway for the next four years," said Arrington. "You try to built it for the next 20 to 30 years."

Riding an empty car from one station to another, critic Edwards disagreed. "This really is a public rip-off and a total waste of money that could have gone for something not quite as fancy, but a lot more practical."

ABCNEWS' Jeffrey Kofman contributed to this story.

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=130201&page=1

[tufsu1]

it appears to me the article's author deemed the system "complete"....I don't see where JTA said this....plus, when was the last time anyone took what JTA said or what a reporter wrote as gospel?

[thelakelander]

Personally, after spending a considerable amount of time in the Library's Special Collections Department, I'd say the ABC article is off.  All of those old skyway studies (going all the way back to the early 1970s) that Ock mentions are in that section and available to the public to view.  If we're going to talk about original projections, as off as they are, we still should put them in their proper place.

[Jim]

I'm getting the impression that they don't know what full completion is or they're just referring to current construction being complete.

"Complete" is much more than the what is open right now.

[stjr]

it appears to me the article's author deemed the system "complete"....I don't see where JTA said this....plus, when was the last time anyone took what JTA said or what a reporter wrote as gospel?

JTA provided the reporter with official info.  Regardless, JTA went on record saying the failure was due to recessions and never said there was more to this project.  JTA only oversaw design, construction, and operation of the Skyway. Why should anyone think they would know why it failed their own projections better than them?

"when was the last time anyone took what JTA said or what a reporter wrote as gospel?"

When I questioned JTA's bill of goods sold to the City Council on bus shelters, where were you, Tufsu?  Looks like you have the unique self-proclaimed ability to be a JTA "truth meter" 

[stjr]

"Complete" is much more than the what is open right now.

"Complete" was up to 56,000 riders a day's worth.  And, we currently have 1,700.

[Mattius92]

STJR you dont get the point, we ALL know that there is only 1,700 daily ridership. Hell I am actually surprised that there is that many, I would say there is more like 100 daily ridership.

THE SYSTEM GOES NOWHERE! Yes NOWHERE, why would poeple want to ride something that goes NOWHERE. Ok lets abandon the thing, now give me a perfectly good way to provide mass transit in DT Jax that is as efficient as an monorail that actually works. On top of that it is going to have to connect the North and South Banks. Without a connection its like two independent parts of downtown.

Streetcars are not as fast or efficient as a monorail system. However they are better then nothing, because currently all our city has for mass transit is. Bus and that wonderful Skyway system that no-one uses. We could abandon the Skyway like you want, and build a streetcar system, OR we could build onto our EXISTING infastructure.

Remember the discussion on SR 9B and everyone say hey lets build onto our EXISTING infrastructure as opposed to building an entirely new highway. Guess what, if they spent $300 on 9A as opposed to building 9B then things would probably be just as good and without extra sprawl. (And yes this is off-topic)

Now lets say we spend $300 million on streetcar, well we could get a pretty good system, yet we already have an state of an art skyway system that with lets say $150 million could be actually useful. Paired together they would be like peas in a pod.

MB

[thelakelander]

"Complete" is much more than the what is open right now.

"Complete" was up to 56,000 riders a day's worth.  And, we currently have 1,700.

Edwards is the guy who mentioned 56,000 riders/day in the ABC article.  However, this 2002 article does not specify what the preferred alignment was at the time this or any other number was quoted.  I'm sure if you're willing to do a little research by visiting the main library's special collections department, you'll find a completely different animal on the books than what exists today.