Why Build A Streetcar in Jacksonville?

[stjr]

I was just trying to gain further understanding of Stjr's position.  On one hand an argument is being made to eliminate the skyway to save money.  Then as the discussion has progressed, a skyway alternative (replacing it with streetcars and turning it into elevated park space) has been proposed that is significantly more expensive than keeping the thing running.

At $14 million a year to operate the Skyway and a smaller line than NY, I am not so sure, Lake. Also, from my visit to the High Line, it appears that a non-profit preservation group is raising the funds from many private sources to pay for it, not unlike what some groups here have hoped to do to make a museum out of a retired Navy ship.  Most importantly, they are making lemonade out of lemons.  The area around the High Line, including the Meatpacking District, is undergoing a resurgence in restoration and new investment.  Those extra property taxes should be beneficial to the City big time.  

[Lunican]

The High Line was donated to New York City by CSX in 2005.

CSX Transportation Congratulates New York City on High Line Opening
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/csx-transportation-congratulates-new-york-city-on-high-line-opening-62073432.html

[stjr]

OK, here is more from the preservation group, Friends of the High Line, web site at: http://www.thehighline.org/

1934

The High Line opens to trains. It runs from 34th Street to St. John’s Park Terminal, at Spring Street. It is designed to go through the center of blocks, rather than over the avenue, to avoid creating the negative conditions associated with elevated subways. It connects directly to factories and warehouses, allowing trains to roll right inside buildings. Milk, meat, produce, and raw and manufactured goods come and go without causing street-level traffic.

1950s

Growth of interstate trucking leads to a drop in rail traffic, nationally and on the High Line.

1960s

The southernmost section of the High Line is demolished.

1980

The last train runs on the High Line pulling three carloads of frozen turkeys.

Mid-1980s

A group of property owners lobbies for demolition of the entire structure. Members of this group own land under the High Line that was purchased at prices reflecting the High Line's easement. Peter Obletz, a Chelsea resident, activist, and railroad enthusiast, challenges demolition efforts in court and tries to re-establish rail service on the Line.

1999

Friends of the High Line is founded by Joshua David and Robert Hammond, residents of the High Line neighborhood, to advocate for the High Line's preservation and reuse as public open space.

2001 - 2002

The Design Trust for Public Space provides a fellowship for architect Casey Jones to conduct research and outreach for "Reclaiming the High Line," a planning study jointly produced by the Design Trust and Friends of the High Line, which lays out planning framework for the High Line's preservation and reuse.

March 2002

Friends of the High Line gains first City supportâ€"a City Council resolution advocating for the High Line's reuse.

October 2002

A study done by Friends of the High Line finds that the High Line project is economically rational: New tax revenues created by the public space will be greater than the costs of construction.

December 2002

The City files with the federal Surface Transportation Board for railbanking, making it City policy to preserve and reuse the High Line.

January â€" July 2003

An open ideas competition, "Designing the High Line," solicits proposals for the High Line's reuse. 720 teams from 36 countries enter. Hundreds of design entries are displayed at Grand Central Terminal.

July 2003

Friends of the High Line and the City jointly testify before the Surface Transportation Board in support of High Line reuse.

March â€" September 2004

Friends of the High Line and the City of New York conduct a process to select a design team for the High Line. The selected team is James Corner Field Operations, a landscape architecture firm, Diller Scofidio + Renfro, an architecture firm, and experts in horticulture, engineering, security, maintenance, public art, and other disciplines.

September 2004

The State of New York, CSX Transportation, Inc. (the railroad company), and the City of New York jointly file with the Surface Transportation Board to railbank the High Line.

April 2005

An exhibition showcasing the preliminary design by James Corner Field Operations and Diller Scofidio + Renfro opens at the Museum of Modern Art.

June 2005

The Surface Transportation Board issues a Certificate of Interim Trail Use for the High Line, authorizing the City and railroad to conclude railbanking negotiations.

November 2005

The City takes ownership of the High Line from CSX Transportation, Inc., (which donates the structure), and the City and CSX sign a Trail Use Agreement. Taken together, these two actions effectively preserve the High Line south of 30th Street.

April 2006

Groundbreaking is celebrated on the High Line with the lifting of a rail track. The first phase of construction on Section 1 of the High Line begins.

April 2006

Construction begins on Section 1 (Gansevoort Street to 20th Street). Tracks, ballast, and debris are removed, and the tracks are mapped, tagged, and stored (some will be reinstalled in the park landscape). This is followed sandblasting of steel, repairs to concrete and drainage systems, and installation of pigeon deterrents underneath the Line.

2008

Landscape Construction begins on Section 1, with construction and installation of pathways, access points, seating, lighting, and planting.

June 2008

Final designs are released for the High Line's transformation to a public park.

June 2009

Section 1 (Gansevoort Street to 20th Street) opens to the public.

2011 (Projected)

Section 2 (20th Street to 30th Street) opens to the public.

And, how 'bout this compared to the development NOT sparked by our Skyway (note, too, the mayoral leadership for preservation):

By some accounts, the coming of High Line Park -- which laces from the Meatpacking District up through west Chelsea -- has sparked roughly $900 million in new development along the surrounding blocks running from Gansevoort to 30th streets.

Built in the 1930s to carry freight, the High Line runs through the middle of blocks -- and even buildings -- between 10th and 11th avenues, offering an intimate view of the city and preserving a legacy of New York's industrial past.

The High Line was slated for demolition during the Giuliani administration.

By 2002, with Mayor Bloomberg's solid backing, it was formally saved, and the city threw its weight behind creating the park.

http://www.thehighline.org/press/articles/060809_nypost1/

[Mattius92]

The Skyway is almost useless without it being expanded. It doesnt connect any residential communities at all. There for it is pretty much stupid to ride it, when you have to drive anyways to get to the closest skyway station. Yet poeple are so against it because it is a money waster, soooo majority of transit systems dont make money, but the affect they have on the economy around it is huge.

Invest in lengthening it and then it will actually be of use. According to my calculations around 3-4 miles need to be added to make it connect the Sport Complex, 5 points, and San Marco. 

[stjr]

Lake, you were a "little" under on the cost estimate per the NY Times article below.  It was $152 million for the first two sections with $44 million of that raised from the private sector.  On the other hand, is has led to a major revival of an entire section of Manhattan with already, in its first year, 30 new projects planned or started.  Seems like everyone in NY is happy with the return on investment.

June 9, 2009
Renovated High Line Now Open for Strolling
By ROBIN POGREBIN

Standing on a newly renovated stretch of an elevated promenade that was once a railway line for delivering cattle â€" surrounded by advocates, elected officials and architects who made the transformation happen â€" Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg cut a red ribbon on Monday morning to signify that the first phase of the High Line is finished and ready for strolling.

Calling the High Line, which opens to the public on Tuesday, “an extraordinary gift to our city’s future,” Mr. Bloomberg said, “Today we’re about to unwrap that gift.” He added, “It really does live up to its highest expectations.”

The first portion of the three-section High Line, which runs near the Hudson River from Gansevoort Street to West 20th Street, will be open daily from 7 a.m. to 10 p.m. There are entrances at Gansevoort Street (stairs) and at 16th Street (elevator); exits are located every few blocks.

The second phase, which extends to 30th Street, is under construction and expected to be completed by fall 2010. The third phase, up to 34th Street, has yet to be approved.

The High Line project is something of a New York fairy tale, given that it started with a couple of guys who met at a community board meeting in 1999 â€" Joshua David, a writer, and Robert Hammond, a painter â€" and discovered they shared a fervent interest in saving the abandoned railroad trestle, which had been out of commission since 1980 and was slated for demolition during the Giuliani administration. That began a decade-long endeavor that involved rescuing the structure and enlisting the Bloomberg administration in its preservation and renovation.

Scott M. Stringer, the Manhattan borough president, called the project “a great West Side story.”

The City Council speaker, Christine C. Quinn, described it as “a miracle of perseverance,” and said, “The idea could easily have gone into a file, ‘great ideas that will never happen.’ ”

With all the bureaucratic hurdles that the project had to overcome, it was fitting that so many representatives of different arms of local government were there for Monday’s celebratory news conference, including Amanda M. Burden, the city planning commissioner; Adrian Benepe, the parks commissioner; Representative Jerrold Nadler, Democrat of New York; and Seth W. Pinsky, the president of the New York City Economic Development Corporation. Also present were two couples who have been the project’s major benefactors â€" Diane von Furstenberg, the fashion designer, and her husband, the media mogul Barry Diller, and Philip Falcone, a hedge fund billionaire, and his wife, Lisa Maria Falcone.

The walkway, designed by James Corner Field Operations and Diller Scofidio & Renfro, includes more than 100 species of plants that were inspired by the wild seeded landscape left after the trains stopped running, Mr. Bloomberg said. He added that the High Line has helped to further something of a renaissance in the neighborhood; more than 30 new projects are planned or under construction nearby.[/color]

One of those projects includes a new satellite for the Whitney Museum of American Art, designed by Renzo Piano, which will anchor the base of the High Line at Gansevoort. The mayor announced on Monday that the city was finalizing a land sale contract with the museum.

The first two sections of the High Line cost $152 million, Mr. Bloomberg said, $44 million of which was raised by Friends of the High Line, the group that led the project.

All of the speakers’ comments echoed the triumphal subject line of an e-mail message sent out by Friends of the High Line right after the festivities had concluded: “We did it.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/09/arts/design/09highline-RO.html

[Mattius92]

Converting the skyway into something like the high line is not going to work. The idea of it was just stupid for the skyway. The high line in NYC is a lot wider and larger then the skyway and on top of that it was built for freight. Not an monorail system. And that cost you are talking about is the cost of converting the high line into a greenway. Not the initial cost of the building the actual system.

[thelakelander]

Stjr, so what are you advocating? Is the goal about better transit or turning the skyway into an elevated park? Or both?

[stjr]

Stjr, so what are you advocating? Is the goal about better transit or turning the skyway into an elevated park? Or both?

Both! 

Lake, just trying to solve two problems at once.  It seems that one of the biggest Skyway "pros" here on MJ is that we don't want to give up on the existing investment in the Skyway [forget that every year we are pouring more into it than its worth or that to POSSIBLY (after all the other "possibles" in its past failed) make it work we may have to spend who-knows-what more on it].

So, I am trying to offer a way to salvage the investment, removing one more obstacle to why it should be closed.  As stated repeatedly, I also consider this better transit because we will now be able to focus money, energy, and political capital on truly better transit, i.e. something that gives us a real bang for the buck.

Aside from the lost better transit options and the yearly operating losses that give us nothing in return,, when you add up the endless examples of development spurred by mass transit done right (or, even a project like the High Line), its obvious that Jax has incurred huge opportunity costs that likely make the cost of abandonment relatively inconsequential.  Bottom line: I don't see abandonment as a show stopper.

[tufsu1]

At $14 million a year to operate the Skyway and a smaller line than NY, I am not so sure, Lake.

why do you continue to characterize the losses at $14 million....as documented before, half of this is depreciation....which all facilities (including the High Line Park) have!

[Captain Zissou]

While the skyway does not turn a profit, can you name any road in Jax that does?  The skyway is an alternative means of conveyance, which its users pay a premium to ride.  That shows they prefer it enough over driving or walking to pay to use it.  Is there any road in Jax that people are willing to pay to drive down?

Mattius- The skyway isn't great, but it isn't useless.  i live on the southbank and I ride the skyway at least once a week to get to the Landing or Hemming.  It's a great convenience for me and I enjoy riding it.

[Mattius92]

Streetcars can be added to the north and south banks, but there isnt a way to connect them from the North and South banks, that is where the Skyway comes into play. The Skyway happens to be the only transit option across the river other then bus. Once a Streetcar line is integrated with the Skyway it will surely become more used.

And Stjr to convert the skyway into a greenway it the gap between the two tracks would have to be filled. However I do like the idea of the Acosta being converted into a greenway + a pedestrian walkway from the North and South banks.

However doing that should be left as an last resort.

[stjr]

While the skyway does not turn a profit, can you name any road in Jax that does?  

Captain, I feel like a broken record, but I guess you and some others don't get it, yet.

I don't care that the Skyway loses money but I do care HOW MUCH for WHAT YOU GET.  If it loses $1 million, $10 million, $100 million, a billion .... how much is TOO MUCH??!!  Obviously, I feel we have way crossed over the line.  Remember, almost no one rides this thing after over 20 years of operation AND expansion that promised tens of thousands of daily riders for WHAT IS ALREADY BUILT (forget MORE expansions).  The excuse making on these boards just doesn't hold water.

If you could take the SAME MONEY LOST and get multiple times the return, why wouldn't you seriously consider that?  In business and your personal life, most everyone would move on given this same scenario.  The problem is I don't think may posters here are treating this decision like it IS THEIR MONEY (which, as taxpayers, it is) and acting appropriately.  We live in a world of LIMITS and, sometimes, something has to give to get something else.

Hope this makes it clearer for you.  

[tufsu1]

stjr....the Skyway gets 2,000 riders a day (was over 3,000 at its height)....this isn't much different from the projections for commuter rail in orlando or here for that matte....are those ideas also bad?

[Mattius92]

Jacksonville didnt have a proper transit system 20 years ago when the skyway was first built and it still has a pitiful system today. Stjr do you not get how transit works. It has to be a complete network, and right now our city has a crappy excuse for a transit network. However until we get commuter rail and streetcars. I see no problem in shutting down the Skyway. It just happens to be a system that needs access. Commuter rail will bring poeple from the outer reaches of our city, dump them off at the Prime, then they can hop on the Skyway to get further into the city. Streetcars could do the same, just not with as much speed.

[Joe]

Stjr, Almost everyone understands the pitfalls and failures of the Skyway. That's why the transit discussion has mostly moved toward streetcars and commuter rail.

If you so desperately want to see the Skyway demolished, you should become the biggest cheerleader in the world for the streetcar. Because the only way people are going to recognize the Skyway as a "sunk cost" is if there is a viable replacement system. Then people will be willing to eliminate the redundant system (that is, if the Skyway remains an underperformer once there are other rail linkages).