Skyway Fails Jax Jazz Festival Test

[thelakelander]

Miami's Metromover seems to work well with Metrorail.  It averages 30,250 riders a day now.  It will also be interesting to see what happens with Detroit's people mover when their proposed LRT line opens, connecting DT & the peoplemover to New Center. 

At this point, I don't see how tearing the skyway down is a cost effective solution.  The capital funds have already been spent to build the thing.  Why not to find ways to better utilize and integrate the Skyway into the overall local transit network before giving up on it?

[stjr]

Miami's Metromover seems to work well with Metrorail.  It averages 30,250 riders a day now.

Lake, you didn't mention the Metromover is FREE in a city with several times our population.  I think that makes the numbers suspect.  It also runs a lot more frequently, for longer hours, and 7 days a week and has 29 stops in 4.4 miles which seems like a lot more per mile than we have.  My question is what is 30K riders a day versus what was expected of it when it was built?  Also, what is the proportion of tourists to locals?  We have mostly locals so are locals users in Miami?

[Joe]

I think Miami's Metromover is a pretty good comparison. Miami's CBD suffers from many of the same problems as Jax as far as being a vertical office park. There aren't too many tourists in that part of Miami, so it's mostly locals.

The critical difference between the systems isn't the negligible fare or the hours of operation, (although I would agree that's something worth considering for Jax) It's that Metromover links with the TriRail commuter rail system. As opposed to the park-n-ride system in Jax. That's a big difference in arrival mode, and I believe that's what creates the major ridership differential.

Jax's skyway has some pretty serious flaws which have been cataloged ad-nauseum: bad route, crappy trains, awful guideways, no stadium, etc.  However, if Jax did magically have a viable commuter rail system, it's easy to see how even our poorly designed skyway would be a success. Virtually 100% of the commuter rail riders would get off at a downtown/southbank station and then promptly ride the skyway to their building.

[Ocklawaha]

Moscow Russia's new "Skyway" done RIGHT!

It would be easy just to take issue with STJR over the JTA/Skyway perceived failures, however the failures are pandemic throughout Jacksonville transportation unless your last name is Goodyear or Gate.  This is the first place where I split the hairs of blame, NONE of this is the fault of the Skyway-Monorail Design-Vehicles-Plant-Concept. Had this same project been tackled by a Chicago, Philadelphia or San Francisco, I dare say it would be humming along and chocking up thousands of passenger miles flawlessly.  Building a system several times advanced from those in place in 90% of the world by a City that last saw mass transit in 1936 was a classic case of "sublime urban connector meets the Duke of Hazard."

Once again STJR has accused me of being a Skyway Defender, apologist and promoter and this is a record that needs to be set straight. I led the fight AGAINST the Skyway back in the 1980's even presenting my views and swaying the Jacksonville Journal under editor George Harmon to blast the plan with both barrels. Why? Because streetcars have made the most sense in the majority of Jacksonville transit solutions since 1870. I am also a realist, and our blind and deluded leadership went right off the cliff and built the Skyway after all. So nearly $200 Million dollars later, we need to assess the state of our transit infrastructure circa 2010 and carefully build from there.

As Abandonment would result in loss of premium above street-above traffic guide-way, and the new senate bill dictates that we MUST add to fixed guide-way mass transit this is not the time to turn and run. While some have pipe dreams of "futuristic monorail - Skyway trains" whisking Jaxon's from JIA to St. Augustine, the many drawbacks of monorails dictate a far more diminutive utilitarian role with the key word being connectivity.

So let's look at STJR'S points with a mind toward fixes rather then argue the systems validity and future based solely on it's heretofore mindless construction and mismanagement.

Yesterday we took the Jefferson Street Station entrance.  The station, as I recall, lacked an escalator present in other stations.  The stairs equate to probably a two and a half to three story house.  On one side of the station was a pot hole filled dirt parking lot we happened to chose.  Strangely, the entire edge of this lot fronting the station was cordoned off by 2 to 3 foot poles strung with heavy gauge wire that needed to be jumped or high stepped over.  The entry to the station is confusing as there is metal fencing from floor to ceiling encircling it at ground level.  At multiple places there are gated entries.  But, for some reason some gates are open and others are closed so you have to circle around looking for the open entries.  We found this same issue at the Hemming Park station.  At Jefferson, once inside, one of two stairs was closed with yellow construction tape even though no activity was obvious.  The other had tape but someone had broken through it so we used those steps.

The stations are in poor repair and like the bus shelter issue, private-public investment might be the ticket to change. Wall's, gates, turnstiles, need to be taken down and the space opened up. Kiosk's for micro-businesses would provide a much needed  purpose and alternate draw to vast empty spaces.

At the turn stiles, it was hard to tell which ones were "exits", which were "enters", or which where two-ways.  It was also hard to tell which were open for business and which were closed.  Trial and error was the order of the day.

Got Fare?

Turnstiles should be history the same as bus fair boxes, these systems have long since been retired from progressive systems.  Fare, tickets, passes, day passes, discount cards, change and routing should be available from OFF THE SHELF vending machines, not only at the Skyway stations, but C-Stores, public buildings and larger stations throughout the JTA system. Fare is collected on an honor system, with roving transit police spot checking various routes and vehicles daily. Failure to have a valid ticket, results in a serious fine.

Arriving at the top, we noted that the vehicles don't carry any signage indicating their route designations or destinations.  Rather, you have to look at a smallish little flashing sign board hanging from the station ceiling.  The route board shows you can take a vehicle from Jefferson/Convention Center to Rosa Parks but that's not what was running.  Instead, you could only go to the Central Station.  There, you had to transfer to another vehicle only running from Central to Rosa Parks.  Go figure.

This is the fault of the design of the junction of the Jefferson Street/Bay Street/Riverplace lines. Laid out correctly (model train 101) would have one route operating end to end from Jacksonville Terminal to Rosa Parks
and another from Kings Avenue to Central. These cars would NEVER normally cross each others routes. With short expansions to provide populated destinations, the Kings Avenue-Central route could be extended endlessly Eastward, or Southward and the Terminal-Rosa Parks could be extended Northward and Westward. Signage in the form of electronic destination curtains is something we should look into, as well as station name signage over the ends of the station roofs in plain view, visible from approaching or departing trains (see photo).

Another annoying feature of the $ky-high-way is an ear-piercing warning device telling you to stand back when a train arrives.  If that doesn't make a frequent rider deaf, or at least drive them to want to jump into the track out of being scared to death when it goes off, I don't know what will.

Touching that 3Rd Rail down on the side of the concrete beam will NOT scare you to death, rather you will instantly be Shocked to death, and left as a smoldering mass of burnt flesh. 600 VOLTS DC is not to play with, and it is the EXACT same current used on Streetcars. The warning device JTA has invested in is very advanced and frankly rather unique if not completely warranted by the lack of transit experience of our average citizens.
This system sounds the alarm when anyone steps or leans beyond the traditional yellow warning line, moreover, it CUTS THE POWER to the track, kills the 3Rd rail in that area and sets the brakes on the train. Back off and everything goes back to normal.

More problems inside the vehicles.  If you are over about 6 foot, 6 inches, don't count on riding the $ky-high-way.  That's about the maximum height in the vehicles.  And, since the seating only holds about 6 men or 8 women, and the other 10 to 12 maximum riders are expected to stand holding poles, don't figure you are likely to sit.  And, at this capacity, expect to just about be kissing your nearest passengers involuntarily as it's very tight.

Moscow's wide open platforms, no gates, no walls, no turnstiles...

The cars are small with a capacity of just over 20 persons each, newer equipment can allow for walking from car to car within the train, fold down seating and MUCH larger passenger capacity. There are over a dozen manufacturers that could fill our order. We also own the rights to the larger center cars of the current trains but we have never ordered them. As currently laid out 4 center cars could be added raising the per train capacity from the current 40 m/l passengers to 160 m/l. A vestibule equipped train that allowed for walk-through's could go longer and larger without having to extend the platforms.

In the vehicles, there are no visuals of the next stops or what route you are on, only a computer voice infrequently telling you what's next if you can hear it over people talking and are alert to the announcement being made.  Don't know how JTA passed this by ADA requirements for hard of hearing and deaf people, but maybe since it is nearly riderless, no one bothers to care.

Visuals should make a difference, destination curtains as well as depot identification signs would go a long way toward making this friendlier.  Going a step further, the ENTIRE SYSTEM should have multi-lingual signage this should include our port terminals, airport, Jacksonville Terminal, bus, Skyway, River Taxi, Streetcars and Commuter Rail, with a local ordinance that forces similar placards to be placed in taxi's, jittney's, etc...

Today, we used the Convention Center station to start.  This was slightly better since we parked in the JTA paved lot and it had an escalator.  Again, the vehicle only went to Central and we transferred to get off at Hemming.  I can assure you JTA succeeded in causing mass confusion with its ridership as many were seen getting on and off the wrong trains and trying to figure out what was happening.

The real fun came when the Jazz Fest ended and the $ky-high-way blew its chance to shine by carrying hundreds of riders in short order.  It couldn't come close.  The too-small platforms are quickly overwhelmed by a crowd approaching 100 riders.  The two measly cars making up a vehicle were maxed out at typically about 18 to 20 riders.  The crowd was once again mystified by the routing information and the actual routes running. The station signs also attempt to tell you when the next train is coming.  Don't believe them.  They are usually wrong.  That will just leave you wondering if the train will ever come.  And, tonight, it never did for one route.  The train for San Marco had door problems or something and, with a full house in its cabins, just sat stuck at Rosa Parks while riders at Hemming were left to wonder what was happening, if anything.

Not seeing a train going toward Central or whatever in that direction, we boarded a train to Rosa hoping it would reverse itself in our favor.  Our hunch was correct.  It returned, already full to Hemming leaving more hapless riders there as we continued on, unable to add more passengers.  At Central, we off loaded.  After a repeat of trains never showing, despite the signs advising of impending arrivals, we were advised by the now present $ky-high-way SWAT team, that our train would be coming.  It finally showed unannounced, and we boarded.  And...the doors wouldn't close!  Just like the Rosa Parks station train.  After several attempts by the SWAT team, they instructed us to off load saying they had to take the train out of service.  Now, it became evident that the $ky-high-way has another flaw - no side tracks.  In other words, normal routing could not begin until this train was returned to home base.  A SWAT team said the system was fully automated implying we had to wait until the computer realized what it needed to do to return this train home.  That took at least 5 minutes after the SWAT team got the doors to close.  At last, our train came in and we made it back to the Convention Center.

There is no excuse for this! The system is hardly the "fully automated" wonder we are told about, in fact it has two very real human operators back at the Skyway operations center, armed with over 100 camera views of every inch of the property. The Skyway systems DOES have a diesel switcher s well as a host of sidings at the home base. Each car can also be operated manually from the dashboard control panel that is hidden in the end of each car under the locked cabinet.

About that $ky-high-way ride:  If you aren't sitting or strong on your feet, expect to hold on hard when standing.  At the speed it travels around curves, it banks noticeably and you will have to work to stay perpendicular to the ground.  Certainly, more effort than the much faster traveling NY subways.  I don't see people with weak knees, bad ankles, sore hips, or the elderly finding the ride an easy one.

Moscow, Russia
The Skyway is rougher then steel wheel on steel rail technology, but still smoother then a city bus with the cheap air bag suspension. It makes up for it's discomforts by "flying" over the traffic.

Every one of the conclusions are fixable and with some creativity, the Skyway could assist in paying US to fix it!


OCKLAWAHA

[Coolyfett]

While this is probably the most mundane of your concerns, the loud alarm you heard is sounded when a person moves a body part across the yellow safety line at the platform edge.   

Exactly....this topic is comedy

[Coolyfett]

I rode it both days I was at Jazz Fest, from the Southbank, and had no problems.

Oh, and I've ridden MARTA in Atlanta after major events, and it takes several trains - and theirs are long and big - to clear the platforms.

The Convention Center leg running in shuttle mode is curious.  And you are aware the pot-hole filled Jefferson lot is privately owned, right?

Gotta co sign the lot thing and the Marta thing. They run 3 cars each car equal 5 Skyway cars and after events its more standers than sitters. Glad the Skyway was over packed this weekend that is beautiful news.

[Coolyfett]

It seems to me that stjr is reporting his own personal experience with the Skyway. If Skyway is going to appeal to more riders and become an effective form of transit in Jacksonville, more work has got to be done on the very simple things that he reported. Why is that a problem?

Its an issue because of the topic starter. This site is pro transit, pro walkability, pro bikeability. Right now the Skyway is the Jacksonville train system. Many know the truth that its about 8 stations short of being a complete system. The real question is what is trolling? Everyone know what The Issue is with the Skyway & its lack of milege. Im glad someone took pictures of the Jazz Fest. It proves the point that the Skyway is an asset. Take the Skyway away and where do all those people park? If people cant park n ride they go back home and they dont spend cash downtown aka The BIG PICTURE. Make matters worse the Northsiders dont even have a park n ride like Terminus, Jefferson & Kings Ave....8 stations, people can only park at 4 of them. Finish it & educate the public. nuff

[Coolyfett]

While I agree with many of your points stjr your use of...

$ky-high-way

Throughout your post lowers your credibility as an unbiased opinion of this flawed and mismanaged asset.

I see it as an asset, that should be finished. Never heard someone say they could not find the entrance or exits, pot holes in parking lots, safety sensers being crossed, not wanting to stand on a train, stations not having escalators?? Lol its nitpicking.

MY Issue The Routing is the fault of JTA, I bet they had no clue The Jazz Fest would be well attended, because simple math would tell you the train that starts at Terminus & King Ave should ride all the way to Rosa Parks station...there shoul be no transfer at Central. Which means they were on regular weekend schedule. The Skyway has problems because the firm that runs it has problems. Trouble finding a seat, finding an exit/entrance, needing escalators is not a legit issue. I was just in Chicago I got lost on their system a few times. It was my fault for not knowing the system not the El Train.  Now if I live in Chicago Id learn the system way before going to an event via transit. I mean the topic starter is a Jax resident and doesnt know the Skyway system??? Thats not even JTAs fault thats his. He doesnt know the system because he doesnt use the system. Then bashes the system because its not the NY Subway? Ha ha ha ha ha ha....I dont believe you actually even rode the New York system or Chicago, you have no proofof actually riding those systems. His post are so Anti Transit its funny....the whole Sky HIGH way thing is just another form of trolling....lol hes a transit troll wow. Lets get a Skyway Sucks thread from Steve or Lake or one of the pub crawl ladies or someone else....its the same old thing from the same old guy. A guy who does not even use it. I mean dude you got lost at Jefferson Station? ha ha ha ha....really? Jefferson Station? Exolain that one for me?

[Coolyfett]

I endorse streetcars for Jax....but you should know a few things:

1. I highly doubt they will be cheaper than the Skyway...remeber we're talking about $50 million to build a line from Riverside to downtown and $100+ million to build a system connecting Riverside, downtown, stadium area, and Springfield....the Skyway is already built!

2. Your concerns about quality of service could be experienced with streetcar too...its a matter of balancing supply w/ demand....take a look at Tampa....they now run one streetcar (holds less than 50 people sitting) every 15 minutes on the weekends and every 20 minutes during the week....even our Skyway does better than that!

I like this, also keep in mind the skyway already connects the two banks together. I just needs to be completed. I just dont see how tearing it down is cost effective despite. Even in ATL the marta trains have problems with the gates and trains.

Keith man on some days the Marta is crap, because of Marta, City of Atlanta & the state of Georgia. Ive been to stations were the gates had no power supply....you tap the breeze card and nothing. We are trapped in the station until they turn the gates on. At lease with Jta you can jump the turnstyle lol. Then they have this thing called one tracking...OMG when they do that you have to wait an hour for a train if your at the end of the line. We recently had an issue where the company that maintains the elevators n escalators did some bad wire work and Marta ended their contract, shut down all escalators at ll 38 stations include Peachtree Center!! And you know how deep underground that station is. So I agree with your point. I was in Chitown...they had a few issues on their train...and as I mentioned some of it was my lack of knowledge...do I want Marta to shutdown because of the issues? hell no, how self centered & self rightous is that? The Skyway is an amenity. Over built, but still started and needs to be completed.

[thelakelander]

Miami's Metromover seems to work well with Metrorail.  It averages 30,250 riders a day now.

Lake, you didn't mention the Metromover is FREE in a city with several times our population.  I think that makes the numbers suspect.  It also runs a lot more frequently, for longer hours, and 7 days a week and has 29 stops in 4.4 miles which seems like a lot more per mile than we have.  My question is what is 30K riders a day versus what was expected of it when it was built?  Also, what is the proportion of tourists to locals?  We have mostly locals so are locals users in Miami?

Everything you mention above is an example of better utilizing an existing asset before pulling the plug.  You've basically proved my point.  Make it more user friendly (better transit connectivity, frequency, access, etc.) and ridership will dramatically increase.

I think Miami's Metromover is a pretty good comparison. Miami's CBD suffers from many of the same problems as Jax as far as being a vertical office park. There aren't too many tourists in that part of Miami, so it's mostly locals.

The critical difference between the systems isn't the negligible fare or the hours of operation, (although I would agree that's something worth considering for Jax) It's that Metromover links with the TriRail commuter rail system. As opposed to the park-n-ride system in Jax. That's a big difference in arrival mode, and I believe that's what creates the major ridership differential.

This is the major difference.  Between Metrorail and Tri Rail, you have 93.3 miles of fixed transit directly connecting the Metromover with other communities like Hialeah, Kendall, Coral Gables, Hollywood, Fort Lauderdale, Pompano Beach and West Palm Beach.  As of 2008, those systems had a combined 83,100 riders a day, with direct access to the Metromover.  If you ever want to see the benefit of transit integration, hop on the Metromover before and after Miami Heat basketball games.  People leave their cars in the burbs, hop on Metrorail and pour onto the Metromover to get within a block of the arena.  My guess is once the Metrorail extension to the airport is complete, they'll see another boost in Metromover's ridership numbers.

While I would not endorse spending a ton of money extending the skyway at this point, I'm a huge fan of better integrating it with the existing bus system and future commuter rail and streetcar lines.


Government Center Station is Miami's central metro station, as well as Downtown Miami's main station. Transfers can be made to all three Metromover loops and all intercity Metrobus lines.

Jax's skyway has some pretty serious flaws which have been cataloged ad-nauseum: bad route, crappy trains, awful guideways, no stadium, etc.  However, if Jax did magically have a viable commuter rail system, it's easy to see how even our poorly designed skyway would be a success. Virtually 100% of the commuter rail riders would get off at a downtown/southbank station and then promptly ride the skyway to their building.

So true.  Ironically, this concept was a part of the original vision for the skyway in the first place.