Skyway Fails Jax Jazz Festival Test

[tufsu1]

^^^ This. Is it the skyway fault? or the people who designed it.

or is it the people who continue to starve the system of needed operating funds (maybe in the hopes of runnjin the system into the ground)....and that is much larger than just JTA

[BridgeTroll]

While I agree with many of your points stjr your use of...

$ky-high-way

Throughout your post lowers your credibility as an unbiased opinion of this flawed and mismanaged asset.

[tufsu1]

Keith,  in my mind, the "design," in this case, equals what is the Sky-high-way so not sure this distinction is important. But, the fact that similar people movers have failed in other cities to come anywhere close to expectations fully convinces me the concept is inherently flawed.

the Miami system does just fine (perhaps because it is directly connected to the Metrorail system) as do most of the airport systems....the concept is to provide a local circulator, nothing more.

[BridgeTroll]

We used the skyway last year for the Jazzfest.  Unfortunately I am out of town this year... but we encountered many of the same problems stjr encountered... especially the confusing stations and locked gates.  We actually had to hop the turnstyles to get up to the platform.  Once there I used the customer service phone and was told they must have "forgot to unlock the gates!  As for the cars being too small and people having to stand... this is pretty common on most modes of mass public transportation...

[stjr]

While I agree with many of your points stjr your use of...

$ky-high-way

Throughout your post lowers your credibility as an unbiased opinion of this flawed and mismanaged asset.

Bridge, point noted.  I originally coined this term as a bit of pointed tongue-in-cheek play-on-words humor and have been surprised by how many are truly pained by it.  I reuse it because I think it succinctly reminds us all about the bottom line:  The system costs way too much both to build (as aptly noted by Stephen) and to operate to deliver so very little.   A little subliminal effort to make my point seems harmless.  Maybe I should trademark it   !

Tell you what, I will drop if for a little while and see if you are right though at times I might bring it up just to make the original point with an occasional "misguided" soul.  Let's see if I get a more measured response.  If nothing else, I'll spare myself some keystrokes  

 As for the cars being too small and people having to stand... this is pretty common on most modes of mass public transportation...

Standing is not uncommon, agreed.  But the ratio of seats to standing with the Skyway seems most unusual to me.  It's over 2 to 1 standing by my count.  I also find the height unusually low for a public space.  How many 6 foot 6 inch ceilings have you seen in either a building or mass transit.  Even the aisle of a plane has more head room.  When the car is full, it's border line claustrophobic.  Not to mention not much room for adequate ventilation above the head.  By comparison, a crowded NY train looks downright luxurious.

or is it the people who continue to starve the system of needed operating funds (maybe in the hopes of runnjin the system into the ground)....and that is much larger than just JTA

Name names, Tufsu.  My understanding is the only other partner of note on funding the ongoing operation of the system is the City of Jacksonville, i.e. the same taxpayers rebelling against the City spending money on almost anything at present.  Are you suggesting that COJ should put more in this system?  While I support the COJ maintaining some level of a sustainable budget for our community at the possible personal expense to me of higher taxes, I could hardly support this given a long list of underfunded higher priorities as I see it .

Further, I don't agree that more operating funds will fix the Skyway given it has endemic infrastructure and conceptual issues.  That's why I conclude we need to give up on it altogether.  Failure is hard to accept but there is a time and place where it must be done to move forward and not spin wheels in the mud forever.

[Overstreet]

It will probably be able to handle the crowd tomorrow. Both of them...............

[Keith-N-Jax]

Names, names is Tufsu referring the tax payers on this one I am not sure. I think the blame totally on JTA and COJ. I say that because these two need to work and plan together. Stjr I really don't see how tearing the skyway down is cost effective Just MO anyway. As Tufsu mentioned the one in Mia works because its connected to metro rail and theres runs more extensively in their business district. We have had the Jags since 95, a new ball park and a new arena. Yet the skyway still doesn't service that area. The skyway services both bank N/S we need to take advantage of that, yet were not for what ever reason

[tufsu1]

Name names, Tufsu.  My understanding is the only other partner of note on funding the ongoing operation of the system is the City of Jacksonville, i.e. the same taxpayers rebelling against the City spending money on almost anything at present. 

the list includes City Council members who don't want to spend a dime on the system...and people like yourself, who continually advocate for its complete abandonment.

bottom line, the system can (and will) work with appropriate funding...but ONLY if downtown becomes a desirable place to live, work, and play.

[stjr]

the list includes City Council members who don't want to spend a dime on the system...and people like yourself, who continually advocate for its complete abandonment.

bottom line, the system can (and will) work with appropriate funding...but ONLY if downtown becomes a desirable place to live, work, and play.

Tufsu, I think it's pretty clear that COJ isn't going to have the stomach to put more money toward the Skyway anytime soon.  If we are going to do more to help downtown, we have far better ways to use the money.  It's just the political and resource realities.

Do the streetcar and help both mass transit and downtown at the same time for less money.  After 20 plus years, the Skyway has done nothing for downtown .... except, maybe damage it.  Abandonment may be a bitter pill to swallow but that doesn't mean it isn't the best medicine.

[tufsu1]

I endorse streetcars for Jax....but you should know a few things:

1. I highly doubt they will be cheaper than the Skyway...remeber we're talking about $50 million to build a line from Riverside to downtown and $100+ million to build a system connecting Riverside, downtown, stadium area, and Springfield....the Skyway is already built!

2. Your concerns about quality of service could be experienced with streetcar too...its a matter of balancing supply w/ demand....take a look at Tampa....they now run one streetcar (holds less than 50 people sitting) every 15 minutes on the weekends and every 20 minutes during the week....even our Skyway does better than that!

[fieldafm]

I agree that political will and public sentiment is firmly entrenched in anti-skyway sentiments... can't say that I blame them.

I also agree that the times I have ridden the skyway, its confusing just to get on the damn thing... I have also experienced the turnstiles being closed on several occasions.

But, capacity can indeed be expanding as Stephen mentioned.... the Super Bowl was the best example.  That thing moved some people that week.

[stjr]

I endorse streetcars for Jax....but you should know a few things:

1. I highly doubt they will be cheaper than the Skyway...remember we're talking about $50 million to build a line from Riverside to downtown and $100+ million to build a system connecting Riverside, downtown, stadium area, and Springfield....the Skyway is already built!

Tufsu, based on your logic, computers, cars, and planes would never get replaced even though they continue to function.  But they do.  And, the basis is cost/benefit.  When you can get so much more benefit for each dollar of overall operating costs of your new investment over your present one, it makes sense to move ahead to something better.

Using your quote, and adjusting for inflation, building the streetcar system you advocate is a fraction of the cost of the Skyway.  More importantly, it will carry many times the traffic for the dollar and this is what will pay back the "cost" to abandon the Skyway many times over.  Most importantly, the streetcars will do for downtown development what the Skyway has failed to deliver on for decades and has no promise to do so.  Add it up, and you have a compelling BUSINESS decision to make that involves walking away from a bad decision for a far better one.

2. Your concerns about quality of service could be experienced with streetcar too...its a matter of balancing supply w/ demand....take a look at Tampa....they now run one streetcar (holds less than 50 people sitting) every 15 minutes on the weekends and every 20 minutes during the week....even our Skyway does better than that!

Tufsu, I agree, there is no limit to incompetency of management.  But, all else being equal, I am convinced the streetcar will do far better than the Skyway.  And, judging from the MJ pix, it clear there are streetcar models that equal or exceed the Skyway's capacity:

[Charles Hunter]

stjr, but if the City does not provide adequate operating funds for the streetcar system, the situation will be the same - infrequent service, poorly maintained cars, which will lead to poor ridership, and people (maybe even you) complaining about the horrible cost.

[stjr]

stjr, but if the City does not provide adequate operating funds for the streetcar system, the situation will be the same - infrequent service, poorly maintained cars, which will lead to poor ridership, and people (maybe even you) complaining about the horrible cost.

Charles, the likelihood of your scenario is greatly reduced over the certain financial disaster we have with the Skyway as the streetcars would cost less and produce more traffic from greater numbers using them creating a much more favorable revenue to cost ratio.  And, additional property taxes from actual development along "improvement districts" lining streetcar routes could be channeled toward operating costs as well.  Heck, maybe streetcars could actually come close to breaking even!

By the way, I would suggest that the inadequacy of operating funds is a "chicken and egg" issue.  JTA (if I may actually dare come to their defense!) may see it as total futility to pump up the Skyway because they may have come to my conclusion, that it is a non-workable mode of transit.  But, due to political realities, they may be fearful to admit such publicly.  The best they can do is weasel out of it through "benign" neglect.  Don't expect them to admit this but, sometimes, actions speak louder than words.

[Keith-N-Jax]

I endorse streetcars for Jax....but you should know a few things:

1. I highly doubt they will be cheaper than the Skyway...remeber we're talking about $50 million to build a line from Riverside to downtown and $100+ million to build a system connecting Riverside, downtown, stadium area, and Springfield....the Skyway is already built!

2. Your concerns about quality of service could be experienced with streetcar too...its a matter of balancing supply w/ demand....take a look at Tampa....they now run one streetcar (holds less than 50 people sitting) every 15 minutes on the weekends and every 20 minutes during the week....even our Skyway does better than that!

I like this, also keep in mind the skyway already connects the two banks together. I just needs to be completed. I just dont see how tearing it down is cost effective despite. Even in ATL the marta trains have problems with the gates and trains.