Landing bill moves forward without preservation funds, but mayor may veto

[Ocklawaha]

The American Sub-Tropical Exposition Buildings in Jacksonville (Think Worlds Fair)

Ocklawaha, I'm trying to track down more pics of the Big Idea that were posted on MetJax but I'm not having any luck.

The problem with the Big Idea was more the overall concept which may as well have been drawn on a cocktail napkin and conceived as an idea int he time frame it took to drink down the bear it was sitting under.

We can green up the River Walk if that's the charm found in those renders.  But ripping up the Landing to install a merry-go-round or adding hot dog and cotton candy vendors on a working drawbridge just screams "I have no idea what I'M doing".

And the whole thing was conceptualized and presented to the media without a single dime considered for or any affected retailers, business, government agencies, etc...informed or contacted regarding it.

Oh make no mistake about it, I would NEVER suggest we embrace this "Big Disaster" over what we have currently on the ground or on the drawing boards.  All I'm thinking is that the early Florida style architecture of the elements in those renderings would fit nicely into creating something more identifiably "local" then the current widget mill designs we seem to rubber stamp all over town.

Lake said he isn't a big fan of taking designs of earlier era's, and I understand this to a point. If we didn't reconstruct the City Wall in St. Augustine, none of us would have a clue what it was like. We rebuilt Fort Caroline for the same purpose, visitors, children and their families, who may only have an hour or two of their lives to study or experience our history are best taught through total immersion. One can understand the ancient Florida communities by having walked through them, touching, feeling, smelling, seeing...

We have so destroyed our landmark structures with the exception of Jacksonville Terminal, and the Water Works that it is impossible for us to comprehend the grandeur that Jacksonville once exhibited. What other city can boast that many key structures were burned 4 times in the War of Yankee Aggression? The Charleston Earthquake of 1886?  The Great Jacksonville Fire of 1901? The Hail Storm of 1911? Hurricane's of 1960/64? Idiot Political Plague of 2003-date? 

Certainly we wouldn't have to make a blueprint accurate copy of any historic building, rather something that shouted elements from some of our greatest structural design achievements. Select a few theme area's and borrow heavily from history in a "Southbank Dixieland District" or "Northbank Expo District"...etc.  Wouldn't a building similar to either of these great venues of the past beat anything we have along the Riverwalk's today?

Hot Dog Carts on the bridge is the best we can do? What about that parking lot and that Main Street Bridge? Why not reconstruct the bridge with the twin 12' auto lanes + a single track, 10' STREETCAR lane right down the center? Why not use the extra couple of feet for pedestrian enhancements? Carry the car line from Springfield, directly down a two way Main Street, over the bridge and onto Riverplace to San Marco and South towards San Jose in phases. Vintage Streetcars weigh similar to modern buses, and the track structure is light enough that bridges generally don't need to be retro-fitted.

Once the streetcar is in place, direct connections with a Water Street car line would enhance the parking not only for the Landing, but the Hyatt, Omni, TU Center, Riverwalk's, and any other retail or entertainment package that located downtown. No longer would zoning have to require business and developers to build XX parking spaces for XX square footage, rather with rail enhancements, remote lots and city owned parking garages could be put to real use as alternatives to conventional storefront thinking.  It's win-win, the developer get's by with having to invest less in non-productive square footage or amenities, the city get's more parking tenants.

Another "perk" worth watching is the global carbon credits for reducing greenhouse gas emissions.  The program is currently limited to "developing countries," but there is talk that it could be expanded to include everyone. These new "Carbon Credits," are credits that can be sold to the highest bidder under a new system that allows municipal governments and transit agencies to sell their "clean" credits to large polluters. These dirty industries will be fined on a global scale but rather then pay 100% in cash, they can buy transit or municipal credits at a slight discount and trade them for face value. Thus the industry saves money and the transit or municipality has a marketable new revenue source.  However it only works if the Transit agency or municipality is "GREEN", and in this case RAIL= GREEN.

BOGOTA MOVES TOWARD RAIL TRANSIT:
In recognition of this feat, TransMilenio, Bogota Colombia's Transit System last year became the only large transportation project approved by the United Nations to generate and sell carbon credits. Developed countries that exceed their emissions limits under the Kyoto Protocol, or that simply want to burnish a “green” image, can buy credits from TransMilenio to balance their emissions budgets, bringing Bogotá an estimated $100 million to $300 million so far, analysts say.

Indeed, the city has provided a model of how international programs to combat climate change can help expanding cities â€" the number of cars in China alone could increase sevenfold by 2030, according to the International Energy Agency â€" pay for transit systems that would otherwise be unaffordable.

(Gee I wonder how this happened?      )


OCKLAWAHA

[kells904]

Kells, I live in Grafton and am exceptionally confused at what's going on with Waterside.  Before all these closures, Waterside was (as Lake has pointed out) a fine example of how the Landing could improve with adjacent dedicated parking.

City officials said they wanted Waterside to be more "family friendly", as I recall, but every time I've been to Waterside for some sort of event, they fully facilitate me getting hammered with cheap beer or sample after sample of wine.  Jillian's is just about deserted now; there's little else.  I assume the idea was to push the bar crawlers over to Granby St (what Bay St. could be someday), but the young people were pissed (some cried 'racism', but...we all know the word "racism" is more commonly used these days than "the").  Bar Norfolk, Blackfinn, Diesel and Have A Nice Day made Waterside relevant throughout the year, not just during "Harborfest" or whatever else.  Who knows if that was the right thing to do or not.  That's ok though; this ain't my town.  I'm on the tail end of an extended visit.

[cline]

Let's provide the dedicated parking and put the ball in the professional's court for a change.

I'll be waiting with baited breath.

[thelakelander]

 That's cool. I wouldn't expect it any other way.

[thelakelander]

Out of curiosity, I decided to take a look at Sleiman's tenant list at their properties.  While all are not ideal for the Landing and downtown, it is an impressive list that shows this company has their foot in the door with many retailers.  Perhaps, they just might know what they are talking about.


Bono's BBQ.
Quizno's Classic Subs
O'Charley's
LongHorn Steakhouse
Huddle House
Papa John's
Rally's
Chick-Fil-A
Chili's Grill & Bar
McDonald's
Firehouse Subs
Sierra Grille
Times Grill
Ale House
Panda Express
Stonewood Tavern & Grille
Player's Grille
Cruiser's Grill
Panera Bread
Taco Bell
Steak n Shake
Burger King


WalMart
Target
Home Depot
Publix
Winn-Dixie
Kohl's
Office Depot
Office Max
Bed Bath and Beyond
HH Gregg
Best Buy
Books A Million
Border's Books
Barnes & Nobles Booksellers
BJ's Wholesale Club
ACE Hardware
Ross Dress For Less
Jos A. Bank
World Market
Walgreens
CVS Pharmacy
Pier One
Sprint PCS
Petco
Beall's Department Store

http://www.sleiman.com/


Since Rouse also believed they needed dedicated parking to attract and keep first tier retailers at the Landing, I would have dug up their tenant mix if they were not bought out by General Growth Properties a couple of years ago.  In any event, for those who will make jokes about some of the chains on the list above, just know that General Growth's tenants also include chains like Crate & Barrel, Cheesecake Factory, Pottery Barn and Coach.  Old Rouse festival marketplaces they took over still have tenants like Hard Rock Cafe, Bubba Gump Shrimp Co., Johnny Rockets and Uno Chicago Grill.

If I wanted to know how to build a trolley from the ground up, I'd ask Ocklawaha for advice.  I'd call Lunican if I had a question about the Metro Jacksonville website.  If I had to run a traffic model, I'd call Tufsu1.  If I had a desire to open up a restaurant, I'd have a few questions for Stephendare or Jerry Moran.  If I wanted to know about the bar business, I'd give Rockstar or Triclops i a call.  If I'm trying to attract some retailers to a shopping center, I think I'd listen to a Sleiman, Rouse or Ben Carter over the Mayor's Office or JEDC.  On the other hand, if I wanted a pocket park, scattered development and a lack of downtown synergy, I'd definitely visit City Hall.  Anyway, I guess that's just me.

If someone knows where to find the retail tenants the JEDC has signed to leases, feel free to post for comparison's sake.

[JeffreyS]

^He shoots he scores.

[cline]

There is no arguing that that is an impressive list of tenants.  However, it is easy to attract these types of tenants when your specialty is cookie-cutter suburban strip malls.  Those are the places these types of tenants look for in Jacksonville (unfortunately).  Suburban strip malls are a far-cry from the "specialty retail" that The Landing has to offer.  I am skeptical that some of the tenants will be willing to make the transition (i.e. take a chance) to locate at The Landing even if they are guaranteed "X" amounts of parking spots.  

That being said, I think it was great that Sleiman was able to get Chicago Pizza to open up at The Landing, I just don't know if some of the others will follow suit though.  

[JeffreyS]

Way to miss the point.

 While all are not ideal for the Landing and downtown, it is an impressive list that shows this company has their foot in the door with many retailers.  Perhaps, they just might know what they are talking about.

[cline]

I don't think I missed Lake's point, it was taken.  I am well aware that some retailers are better suited for The Landing than others.  I wouldn't remotely expect an Ace Hardware or Office Depot to open up at The Landing, however, a Times Grille or Ale House would be suited for that type of place.  My question is would they?  We are talking about a venue that offer specialty retail - not "regular ole" Jax which retail, which consists primarily of strip malls and faux town centers (STJC).

[thelakelander]

You do know that Rouse had the same concerns and they developed several urban retail centers.

Underground Atlanta, Atlanta, Georgia

Harborplace, Baltimore, Maryland

Faneuil Hall, Boston, Massachusetts

Navy Pier, Chicago, Illinois

Aloha Tower Marketplace, Honolulu, Hawaii

Jacksonville Landing, Jacksonville, Florida

The Grove at Farmers Market, Los Angeles, California

Hollywood and Highland, Los Angeles, California

Bayside Marketplace, Miami, Florida

Jackson Brewery, New Orleans, Louisiana

Riverwalk, New Orleans, Louisiana

South Street Seaport, New York City

Waterside, Norfolk, Virginia

Jack London Square, Oakland, California

Arizona Center, Phoenix, Arizona

Station Square, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

Westfield Horton Plaza, San Diego, California

Ghirardelli Square, San Francisco, California

Pier 39, San Francisco, California

St. Louis Union Station, St. Louis, Missouri

Union Station (Washington, D.C.), Washington, D.C.

Tower City Center. Cleveland, Ohio

Here is a list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festival_marketplace

That's a pretty damaging list to the thought that parking issue doesn't have legs to stand on.

Anyway, there's no argument that some chains prefer certain site selection criteria over others.  Nevertheless, most (especially restaurants, which is what the Landing is after) don't care if the site is urban or suburban as long as a market meets their basic site selection criteria.  In most circumstances (unless you have a ton of foot traffic), that includes having adequate dedicated parking.

With that said, I'm more skeptical of a redevelopment plan by novices that ignores basic site selection criteria over listening to experienced companies who recruit retailers on an everyday basis.

[thelakelander]

I don't think I missed Lake's point, it was taken.  I am well aware that some retailers are better suited for The Landing than others.  I wouldn't remotely expect an Ace Hardware or Office Depot to open up at The Landing, however, a Times Grille or Ale House would be suited for that type of place.  My question is would they?  We are talking about a venue that offer specialty retail - not "regular ole" Jax which retail, which consists primarily of strip malls and faux town centers (STJC).

This has less to do with the Landing or Sleiman and more to do with specific chains and their location requirements.  In this case, pick your selected chain and run a search on their site selection criteria.  Another way to get a general idea is to visit their website and look at their location list.  You'll find that some chains have urban locations, some don't and some have a mix.  For example, Times Grill is a new chain and they don't have any while Barnes & Nobles, Steak n Shake and CVS have suburban and urban locations.  Yet, regardless of where they are located, you'll find they're either in areas with significant foot traffic or places with dedicated parking nearby.  

[Jim]

There is no arguing that that is an impressive list of tenants.  However, it is easy to attract these types of tenants when your specialty is cookie-cutter suburban strip malls.  Those are the places these types of tenants look for in Jacksonville (unfortunately).  Suburban strip malls are a far-cry from the "specialty retail" that The Landing has to offer.  I am skeptical that some of the tenants will be willing to make the transition (i.e. take a chance) to locate at The Landing even if they are guaranteed "X" amounts of parking spots. 

That being said, I think it was great that Sleiman was able to get Chicago Pizza to open up at The Landing, I just don't know if some of the others will follow suit though. 

There was quite a lot of interest from several big name retailers and restaurants that wanted a Landing location but never committed because of the parking issue.  It's not a Jacksonville issue, it's not a Sleiman issue, it's not a facility issue...it's a parking issue.

Fuddruckers is one of the most visible.  Built out began with a franchisee owner but his business went south and construction stalled.  Corporate would have taken over the project but it didn't meat their parking criteria.

[thelakelander]

I wouldn't remotely expect an Ace Hardware or Office Depot to open up at The Landing, however, a Times Grille or Ale House would be suited for that type of place.  My question is would they?  We are talking about a venue that offer specialty retail - not "regular ole" Jax which retail, which consists primarily of strip malls and faux town centers (STJC).

Above I mentioned actually visiting a selected chain's site and digging up their site selection criteria.  Here is the selection criteria for Times Grill.

Real Estate Requirements

Preferred Locations

• Neighborhood Shopping Centers
• Mixed Use Properties
• Entertainment Complexes
• Lifestye Centers

Desired Demographics


1 Mile  2 Miles  3 Miles
Population  6,000  10,000  20,000
Population Daytime  10,000  35,000  75,000
Median HH Income  $45,000  $55,000  $55,000


Site Requirements

Size
• Approximately 3,700 to 4,200 sq. ft. freestanding or end cap with 400 to 600 sq. ft. patio

Visibility
• Unrestricted from primary street

Signage
• Two building signs and monumental or pylon sign

Storefront
• 50 ft minimum

Parking
• 20 cars per 1,000 sq ft and 3 dedicated spaces for Times To Go

Electrical
• 600 amp, 3 phase power

HVAC
• 1 ton per 110 sq ft

http://www.timesgrill.com/content/view/37/94/

If I'm Sleiman and trying to pull these guys to the Landing, this tells me...

1. The Landing is a mixed-use/entertainment center = check!

2. A one mile radius around the Landing would include all of DT, plus parts of Brooklyn, Springfield, San Marco and some other neighborhoods.  Three miles pulls in a good chunk of the urban core.  I don't have that number in front of me, but I'm confident it would meet the population requirements listed above.

3. DT has +50k workers, so the daytime population is easily meet.  However, I'm not sure about the median household income numbers.

4. Parking - They would need between 77-87 dedicated spaces.  The Landing has none at this point.

So, it seems like with dedicated parking, the only number that would need to be looked at in detail is household income.

[Jim]

I'm quite certain the household income requirement would be met.  Do a 3 mile reach from the Landing and look how much of downtown, St Nichols, San Marco, Riverside, Avondale and SpringField it consumes.  I bet those areas could offset the lowered income levels of Durkeeville, Lackawana and East Jax.

[Joe]

I decided to estimate some of the demographics Lakelander's post was missing. Unfortunately, I don't have access to data specifically in radial increments. However, zip codes 32202, 32204, 32205, 32206, 32207, and 32209 reasonably approximate a 3-mile radius. It's not perfect, but it's a decent match.

Consequently we have the following table (using 2008 census estimates):
Zip    -    Pop     -  Median Income
32202   5550    $12,400.00
32204   8529    $29,994.00
32205   32976   $43,293.00
32206   23200   $21,496.00
32207   37019   $44,531.00
32209   43490   $27,797.00

So the Landing has a rough 3-mile radius of around 150,700 residents with a median income of $33,400. (Note: for obvious reasons this isn't true median income, but it's the best I know how to do with free data. I suspect the result is fairly accurate.)