Transit Numbers Released: How Does Jacksonville Rank?

[kells904]

It seems minor, but I think a better route naming system could help as well.

I don't think that's minor.  On top of everything else that's horribly wrong with puiblic transportation, it's just another thing that makes riding the bus a pain in the ass.

[Ocklawaha]

It seems minor, but I think a better route naming system could help as well.

I don't think that's minor.  On top of everything else that's horribly wrong with puiblic transportation, it's just another thing that makes riding the bus a pain in the ass.

I agree, this just follows on my previous statements, it's a system designed for the convience of the JTA rather then the riding public. Ditto the new "Hybrid AC" units, ask any rider if it matters to them HOW the air get's cooled...  But a big chunk of change that could be making riding a better experience is being spent so the political machine can boast about green. Bogus.

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

1700 Skyway riers per day = 443,000 weekday riders or 620,500 annual riders.

Interesting.

Dr. K, not sure how you made the leap from 443K to 620.5K.

Dr. K,  I figure it this way:

1,700 trips/day x 5 weekdays = 8,500
8,500 x 52 weeks = 442,000 trips

1,700 trips, if they are round trips, equals 850 unique riders per day.  If the system served regular daily locals, that would come to $14,000,000 annual operating loss/850 unique riders = $16,470/SUBSIDY/rider/year.  Equal to buying a car for each rider.

Another way to look at this is:
$14,000,000 annual operating loss/442,000 trips = $31.67 SUBSIDY/trip.

Before Ock and others jump on to say public transit isn't suppose to make money, I agree.  But, that is not the question.  The question is which mode delivers the most service for the total cost (fare + subsidy).  It doesn't appear to be the $ky-high-way.  Not even close.

[Doctor_K]

Dr. K, not sure how you made the leap from 443K to 620.5K.

1700 riders per day x 365 days in a year.

And I don't disagree with your figures.  My challenge to you is this: figure out the subsidy for the JTA bus system with as much zeal as you have for the Skyway. 

And again I say to you: extend the Skyway to a destination or two and see how your subsidy figures drop.

[thelakelander]

Assuming your numbers are right, how does that compare with the annual operating/maintenance cost of a road or air based example?

[finehoe]

That house deep in suburbia might look like a palatial bargain when compared with the high-priced urban real estate, but a new study says that if home buyers factor in the cost of transportation, they might think twice.

The report, produced by the Chicago-based nonprofit Center for Neighborhood Technology, coupled census data on population and income with local transportation costs to find the bottom-line cost of living in a particular neighborhood. Not surprisingly, the combined cost of a home that requires a longer commute by car might exceed that of a more expensive home within walking distance of transit.

"The farther you get out, the cost of transportation can double," said Scott Bernstein, president of CNT. "Somewhere between eight and 12 miles out from the center . . . housing costs dropped precipitously, but transportation costs went way up."

Larger urban areas such as New York, Chicago and San Francisco, with more established transit options, faired better than smaller cities where the car is still king.

http://sneakpeak.htaindex.cnt.org/

[cline]

My challenge to you is this: figure out the subsidy for the JTA bus system with as much zeal as you have for the Skyway.

Agreed.  And also add in what lakelander said and compare it to road and air transit.  The Skyway subsidy may not look all that bad then.

[tufsu1]

and remember that half of the $14 million annual skyway cost you cite is depreciation....factor that in for all modes as well.

[stjr]

My challenge to you is this: figure out the subsidy for the JTA bus system with as much zeal as you have for the Skyway.

Agreed.  And also add in what lakelander said and compare it to road and air transit.  The Skyway subsidy may not look all that bad then.

I agree, road and air subsidies are likely far greater.  I don't support the way those systems are played out either as is evident by my posts on MJ in which I favor mass transit over road building in particular.  That's not the standard to use here.  Mass transit of any kind should blow away road and air travel costs almost always.  Moving 1 to 4 people at a time over land or jetting people into the air versus dozens to hundreds being moved on land is inherently less efficient for most situations.

The question, as I have stated before, is of all the MASS TRANSIT modes, which is most efficient?  

$ky-high-way supporters consistently turn the other way when faced with this comparison.  That's my problem with the $ky-high-way and its costs.  It's my opinion that buses, trolleys, streetcars, and commuter rail move people far more effectively (more users, better user interface, and less overall costs per user) than the $ky-high-way.  Haven't seen anything yet to convince me otherwise.  And the $ky-high-way's history of HUGE failure (both in Jax and elsewhere) in the face of the same promises and expectations made on MJ to support its next expansion speaks volumes about its viability under any circumstances.

and remember that half of the $14 million annual skyway cost you cite is depreciation....factor that in for all modes as well.

Tufsu, factor it in for any mode.  I have no problem with that.  Apples to apples.  We agree!  It's a real cost of doing business and shouldn't be left out.

[cline]

I agree, road and air subsidies are likely far greater.  I don't support the way those systems are played out either

So why aren't you advocating tearing down I-95 with as much zeal as you are with tearing down the Skyway?

[Ocklawaha]

It's not just about the numbers, it's also about the ride itself. In downtown traffic the LEAST efficient vehicle in terms of negotiating the gridlock is a streetcar or interurban/LRT car. Even Trolley Buses do better since they are designed to be able to swing out and away from obstructions.  Sometimes the devil is in the details, build a 100% streetcar transit system, and have one big building downtown along the line catch fire at 4PM.  Holy Hell! I don't think I have seen a "hose jumper" since I was 5.

If just half of that system were gliding above the streets like the Skyway, the problem could be solved. But because of expense, we wouldn't want to put all of our eggs in that basket either, and what do we do with routes that have light patronage but are needed just the same?

I've got it, let's buy highway vehicles! They can weave through the maze of traffic and fire trucks, hoses and angry streetcar patrons with ease. But OOPS!

Out at Dunn Avenue, Philips, Beach, Blanding, San Jose etc... that damn bus is still weaving in and out through the maze and going nowhere fast. Sooooo?

We take the patrons to the edge of the urban district and fill your streetcars, which by the time they are out of the congestion are on private right of way... IE: RAILROAD TRACK without pavement.  We'll have to take the Skyway patrons too, because now that we're as far as the Stadium, San Marco, Shand's etc... the Skyway becomes just too damn expensive to construct for light density. Likewise the Trolley Bus is now limited to a couple of restricted lanes and very limited suburban routes.

A certain relief is addition of a commuter train to take folks to those more distant Burbs, and they can flash past all of those buses on Roosevelt, Philips, North Main, or Beaver.  But Damn! They don't do Gateway Mall very well at all, so what to do now?

How about a STREETCAR on the old Railroad grade?

Does this help explain why even though I am the ORIGINAL STREETCAR EVANGELIST in the City, I still see a place for each and every mode in a city as sprawled and diverse as Jacksonville. Each mode needs it's downtown core or contact, and all of the systems should be woven into a tapestry of transit. The tighter the weave, the better the system... and your ridership problems will fade as the system image soars.


OCKLAWAHA

[Coolyfett]

Dr. K, not sure how you made the leap from 443K to 620.5K.

1700 riders per day x 365 days in a year.

And I don't disagree with your figures.  My challenge to you is this: figure out the subsidy for the JTA bus system with as much zeal as you have for the Skyway. 

And again I say to you: extend the Skyway to a destination or two and see how your subsidy figures drop.

JTA buses should NOT go to Rosa Park Station. There should actually be 3 or 4 of those kinds of skyway terminals that feed downtown. The Skyway system is incomplete. Its like a bike with no back wheel and no damn handle bars.....whos gonna ride that?

[stjr]

So why aren't you advocating tearing down I-95 with as much zeal as you are with tearing down the Skyway?

Cline, first, unlike the $ky-high-way, and regardless of the cost, people use the heck out of I-95 and development has been fixated around its location.  Can't say either of those statements can be applied to the $ky-high-way after 30 years or so.

But, you are right, if we had a great commuter and intercity rail system in place, I would be on board for considering dismantling the interstate.  Unfortunately, I won't live long enough to see it probably, but within the next few generations, I wouldn't be surprised to see the interstate system dismantled as rail transit supplants it.  We already have the first steps in this with the creeping introduction of rail down interstate highways in many metro areas and the growing dependency of major world cities on mass transit over auto.  I fully expect at some point the pendulum swings so far to rail, that the interstate succumbs.  More a matter of when, than if.  Could be another 100 to 200 years, who knows.

Second, I have advocated NOT EXPANDING the interstate system in N.E. Florida by questioning why we want to construct both the Outer Beltway and 9B instead of mass transit.

So, to your point, I think I am consistent with your expectations.

[Ca3rice]

Just another reason why Jacksonville Sucks a$$. They should scrap the whole system and start fresh.

[Ocklawaha]

Just another reason why Jacksonville Sucks a$$. They should scrap the whole system and start fresh.

Welcome aboard Ca3rice!  We don't need to scrap a thing my friend, just FINISH what we started. Follow the Skyway's plans and phases and complete the line to:

The Shands/VA Medical Complex
San Marco - Atlantic at the FEC Railroad
Brooklyn - Riverside at Rosselle
Stadium - Bay Street at N. Georgia

The current Skyway is the equal of the old Jacksonville Expressway Authority building out our FREEways with 18 lanes, from Durkeeville to Gateway, and then walking away and tossing up our hands... 30 years and it STILL doesn't work... DUH!

OCKLAWAHA