You can't believe in no child left behind and believe in magnet schools

[JUSTDAVE]

OK now that I have just a little bit been assured that this thread won't just become parent bashing, (see first thread on education)lets try to discuss something I feel very strongly about, magnet schools. Magnet schools were invented and still exist today To leave children behind or to concentrate the smart kids, the by product is schools with a lack of caring and huge traffic jams of people leaving duval county who never wanted their kids left behind or people who just moved to this area who realize because they can't get a magnet school don't want to live in duval county.

Even though I really haven't bought into the whole global warming thing I can't imagine any other thing responsable for more traffic and more miles being put on cars than teenagers going to school and making friends with other students all over town. 

[jbm32206]

Magent schools were originally part of the desegregation, of which Duval county was court mandated. This allowed students to be bused to schools other than their home school. The idea was to provide special programs to draw kids to these schools. Since DCSB is no longer under court mandate, I'd say that many magnet programs have flourished and offer an even wider variety. You have the arts, science, math, academically talented, and many more.

There has been a significant drop in the overall enrollment of Duval county schools, but that's not due to magnet schools, it's because of people moving to other counties, more or less the burbs, if you will. The drop in enrollment has been happening for several years and continues on this track.

[jbm32206]

As for the NCLB act, that has nothing to do with magnet schools, it's a federal act. It's intended to help ensure that every child be successful, and it's supposed to help reduce classroom size (which does help) as well as added federal funding. The problem with that is, the schools aren't getting that extra funding, which is a problem nationwide. In fact, NBC Nightly news just had a segment about NCLB, in which just about everyone was in agreement that the overall purpose is good and needed, but the money isn't there.

[jbm32206]

Thought you might like to read this:

From: http://www.ed.gov/programs/magnet/index.html
Magnet Schools Assistance
"CFDA Number: 84.165A
Program Type: Discretionary/Competitive Grants

PROGRAM DESCRIPTION

These grants assist in the desegregation of public schools by supporting the elimination, reduction, and prevention of minority group isolation in elementary and secondary schools with substantial numbers of minority group students. In order to meet the statutory purposes of the program, projects also must support the development and implementation of magnet schools that assist in the achievement of systemic reforms and provide all students with the opportunity to meet challenging academic content and student academic achievement standards. Projects support the development and design of innovative education methods and practices that promote diversity and increase choices in public education programs. The program supports capacity development

[downtownparks]

I am proud to say I plan on taking full advantage of the magnet program. My Daughter just finished 2nd grade at University Christian, and were it not for the Magnet program, I would not have even considered pulling her. She will be at a gifted magnet next year, and we couldnt be more pleased.

There is no reason for a parent to NOT take advantage of the magnet programs. Its open to everyone!!!

[JUSTDAVE]

The bottomline is, THE APPEAL THE MAGNET PROGRAM HAS IS THAT YOU GET TO LEAVE OTHER CHILDREN BEHIND. Don't be embarrassed to say it and I don't think any less of you for it. Right now thats the system and your using the system to your advantage.

The stated goal of no child left behind isn't working The neighborhood schools are perceived to be so bad and thats exactly why developers are building on the border of town Do you want to be known as a parent that sends his child to a second rate school HELL NO  You would move or send your child elsewhere first.   

I am proud to say I plan on taking full advantage of the magnet program. My Daughter just finished 2nd grade at University Christian, and were it not for the Magnet program, I would not have even considered pulling her. She will be at a gifted magnet next year, and we couldnt be more pleased.

There is no reason for a parent to NOT take advantage of the magnet programs. Its open to everyone!!!

[jbm32206]

The school I work at used to be a magnet, where they had a lot of kids being bused in for the program...mostly military. Then the county with their wisdom decided they no longer wanted to transport the kids from the base to our area...which pretty much killed our magnet. Now it's a neighborhood school and it's pretty much out of control. Even at the 5th grade promotional ceremony, we ended up with parents fist fighting...how lovely!

I'm all for the magnet schools...but I do agree with you, that the rest of the schools are failing because we're not magnets.

[spidey]

It does seem unfortunate that when you skim the cream off of the top and send them to a magnet school, the other students do not have as many good students to model themselves after.

[downtownparks]

So my kid should be forced to suffer because other parents don't care? EVERY child is eligible for magnet. Because parents don't choose to pursue that line isn't the fault of the parents who DO take an interest in their kids education.

Plus If we did away with magnets, it would make the recovery of neighborhoods almost impossible as no parent would move purposefully to an area with bad schools. As  Springfield resident, this matters to me.

[jbm32206]

No, DTP, you should continue to send your kids to a magnet school and not have any regrets or second thoughts! You're so right, every child is entitled and eligible for magnet programs. Parents just have to fill out the application and it's best to have it endorsed by the magnet lead teacher at the school.

As parent, it should matter to you....and that's what will help your children to succeed! Good for you and good for your kids!

[rbirds]

Spidey invokes one of the primary justifications used in Brown vs Board Of Education (1954) --the influence of competent student peers -- when he writes

It does seem unfortunate that when you skim the cream off of the top and send them to a magnet school, the other students do not have as many good students to model themselves after.

And he also mentions one of the primary fears of public school supporters about the effect of school choice when he mentions cream-skimming.

While the research at the time was sketchy the peer group influence argument was one of the most powerful arguments invoked during the struggle for public school desegregation.  Once we had integrated schools many parents have simply used neighborhoods and an insistence on neighborhood schools as a way to segregate public schools once again.

One of the great fears of school choice harbored by public school advocates was that parents would use magnet schools, charter schools, taxpayer-funded vouchers to private schools as another channel for segregation.  Cream-skimming usually translates (although I'm not suggesting it is used that way here) to segregation, with white and Asian students usually out-performing black and immigrant students.  Skim these higher-performing students off the top and we have one more reinforcer for segregated public schools.

At the bottom of the debate about school choice (including magnet schools) is what kind of public school system we want.  Do we want a publicly-funded system operated by the government where the focus was, until recently, equitable access to education, a publicly-funded system operated by a lot of providers where the focus is parental choice, or a voluntary education system funded by parent-provided tuition and operated by whomever wants to open a school?

Downtownparks protests that

my kid should be forced to suffer because other parents don't care?

Of course, downtownparks asks a legitimate question and one that also goes right to the core of this question about the nature of public education. 

What is public education? Is it a service best provided by government that ensures both equitable access and a focus on creating a new generation of citizens with sufficient knowledge and skills to participate in American democratic society?  Or should it be a commodity -- characterized not by access for all or a mission to create responsible citizens -- but rather characterized as a product best arbitrated by the market?  Using the language of public policy: is education a public good or a private good?

These are not questions we have had to face here in Jacksonville.  Our charter schools largely serve low-SES students and don't attempt to recruit middle-class students, although one charter targeting high-achieving students is scheduled to open this August.  Our private schools tend to attract either parents seeking more religion in their child's curriculum or higher social status.  The voucher programs in Florida so far have not attracted a large number of Duval students.

From my point of view when you boil these discussions down to their essence you find this question: do I want my children attending school with whatever my area tosses up for his or her peers or do I want more control (social status, race, religious preference, gender, ethnicity) over what sort of students will influence my child both socially and academically.

[JUSTDAVE]

You have really covered this pretty well. One other factor, parents try neigborhood schools and then decide that they (the parent) would rather commute to work then have their child commute to school and then commute to see their student friends.

The only parents that have their kids in neighborhood schools are parents that tolerate them. Very few student role models 

Spidey invokes one of the primary justifications used in Brown vs Board Of Education (1954) --the influence of competent student peers -- when he writes

It does seem unfortunate that when you skim the cream off of the top and send them to a magnet school, the other students do not have as many good students to model themselves after.

And he also mentions one of the primary fears of public school supporters about the effect of school choice when he mentions cream-skimming.

While the research at the time was sketchy the peer group influence argument was one of the most powerful arguments invoked during the struggle for public school desegregation.  Once we had integrated schools many parents have simply used neighborhoods and an insistence on neighborhood schools as a way to segregate public schools once again.

One of the great fears of school choice harbored by public school advocates was that parents would use magnet schools, charter schools, taxpayer-funded vouchers to private schools as another channel for segregation.  Cream-skimming usually translates (although I'm not suggesting it is used that way here) to segregation, with white and Asian students usually out-performing black and immigrant students.  Skim these higher-performing students off the top and we have one more reinforcer for segregated public schools.

At the bottom of the debate about school choice (including magnet schools) is what kind of public school system we want.  Do we want a publicly-funded system operated by the government where the focus was, until recently, equitable access to education, a publicly-funded system operated by a lot of providers where the focus is parental choice, or a voluntary education system funded by parent-provided tuition and operated by whomever wants to open a school?

Downtownparks protests that

my kid should be forced to suffer because other parents don't care?

Of course, downtownparks asks a legitimate question and one that also goes right to the core of this question about the nature of public education. 

What is public education? Is it a service best provided by government that ensures both equitable access and a focus on creating a new generation of citizens with sufficient knowledge and skills to participate in American democratic society?  Or should it be a commodity -- characterized not by access for all or a mission to create responsible citizens -- but rather characterized as a product best arbitrated by the market?  Using the language of public policy: is education a public good or a private good?

These are not questions we have had to face here in Jacksonville.  Our charter schools largely serve low-SES students and don't attempt to recruit middle-class students, although one charter targeting high-achieving students is scheduled to open this August.  Our private schools tend to attract either parents seeking more religion in their child's curriculum or higher social status.  The voucher programs in Florida so far have not attracted a large number of Duval students.

From my point of view when you boil these discussions down to their essence you find this question: do I want my children attending school with whatever my area tosses up for his or her peers or do I want more control (social status, race, religious preference, gender, ethnicity) over what sort of students will influence my child both socially and academically.

[rbirds]

Part of your comment, Dave, appears to have been cut off.  If you look at the surveys and studies that look at this sort of thing neighborhoods with successful (in the ways we now identify successful) schools command higher house prices.  Studies have even tracked increased housing prices linked directly with higher school grades.  So for those that place a premium on school grades and have the means to choose among neighborhoods, parents will gravitate towards neighborhoods with whatever the state equivalent of what an A school is in Florida.

The effect of high-performing student peers on less successful students remains controversial.  But parents appear to have nearly uniformly embraced the reality of this effect.  Why send your child to private schools otherwise?  Parents with strong ideological or religious beliefs being the exception.  Why gravitate towards Florida vouchers?  Why would charter schools attempt to emulate private schools with their high-performing students otherwise?

[JUSTDAVE]

If you look at the surveys and studies that look at this sort of thing neighborhoods with successful (in the ways we now identify successful) schools command higher house prices.  Studies have even tracked increased housing prices linked directly with higher school grades. 

Stanton? I know you don't mean Paxon, I know Douglas Anderson or Lavilla isn't on the list. Not to be arguementive but the most signifacant (yet remote and opposite of what your saying) example is how the price of land is highest in neighboring counties closest to the Duval county line because of high demand of people who want to work in duval but live in neighboring counties  because of our schools

[spidey]

Dave, that's not quite a fair assessment you're making there.  Those schools became successful AFTER they became magnet schools, and AFTER the neighborhoods there were already well-established poor neighborhoods.  And their status isn't likely to change at this point.  (Well, except for maybe LaVilla, because the City tore everything else around them down.  So maybe new, expensive construction could come in there.) Anyway, that's the reason they stuck the magnet programs in those schools to begin with.

A more relevant example would be Hendricks Ave. Elementary.  It's a good school, has always been a good school, magnet program or no magnet program, and the home prices around it are exorbitant.  I know of numerous people who are buying or trying to buy homes in the Miramar area just so their kid can go to Hendricks.