You can't believe in no child left behind and believe in magnet schools

[rbirds]

I think Spidey is right to say that not all conditions fit here.  In the specific study I was thinking of as I wrote about the correlation between housing prices and school grades, a UF researcher found a strong correlation between the two variables: house prices and school grades assigned by the state.  A strong correlation does not mean in every case at every location.

It means when you look at a substantial subset of neighborhoods and the schools serving those neighborhoods you are likely to find a close association of house prices with school grades. Houses surrounding A schools are more likely to be more expensive than houses surrounding D schools.  But there are A schools in low-cost neighborhoods and C schools in high-cost neighborhoods.  But you will find conditions just as you, Spidey, cite and just as you mention, JUSTDAVE, in your response.

However, you will find virtually no D or F schools in low-cost neighborhoods.

BTW, if you are interested in that UF study, I have a pdf version of it somewhere.  Just let me know.

[JUSTDAVE]

A more relevant example would be Hendricks Ave. Elementary.  It's a good school, has always been a good school, magnet program or no magnet program, and the home prices around it are exorbitant.  I know of numerous people who are buying or trying to buy homes in the Miramar area just so their kid can go to Hendricks.

come on now the biggest example by far IS MORE PEOPLE DRIVE OUT OF TOWN TO AVOID JACKSONVILLE SCHOOLS then any number of Jacksonville residents moved to a certain neighborhood to go to a certain school

if you took a random sample of people moving because of school choice 75% would be moving out of duval in this area

[spidey]

Dave:  MORE PEOPLE DRIVE OUT OF TOWN TO AVOID JACKSONVILLE SCHOOLS

I think that used to be true, Dave.  However, St. Johns County folks have had so much growth, and quit bothering to keep up with their schools to match that growth, so the quality of their schools is not really an issue any longer in attracting people to their county.

For Jacksonville, its harder to see the phenomena of people moving to be close to good schools due to the advent of the magnet program.  People are now driving all over the place, and/or bussing their kids to good schools, so that interferes with the hypothesis.

[downtownparks]

We were lucky. We enrolled our eldest in Susie Tolbert next year for the gifted program. Its lets than two miles, door to door, and no major roads between us.

Interestingly, Susie Tolbert is considered out of district for us, but Holiday Hills, which is in Arlington/Southside, is considered a neighborhood school.

[JUSTDAVE]

I think your kidding yourself if you think most people don't think its normal for every kid on the block to go to the same school. I think the traffic jams on every border of town are mostly because people want to live in a neighborhood/community where its more likely every child goes to school with every other child that lives close Sometimes its not the grade of the school

Dave:  MORE PEOPLE DRIVE OUT OF TOWN TO AVOID JACKSONVILLE SCHOOLS

I think that used to be true, Dave.  However, St. Johns County folks have had so much growth, and quit bothering to keep up with their schools to match that growth, so the quality of their schools is not really an issue any longer in attracting people to their county.

For Jacksonville, its harder to see the phenomena of people moving to be close to good schools due to the advent of the magnet program.  People are now driving all over the place, and/or bussing their kids to good schools, so that interferes with the hypothesis.

[rbirds]

This thread illustrates the diversity of views about public education.

Dave suggests that

your [the universal you're] kidding yourself if you think most people don't think its normal for every kid on the block to go to the same school

.  To Dave a neighborhood school is a primary characteristic of public education. And makes a broader claim that

MORE PEOPLE DRIVE OUT OF TOWN TO AVOID JACKSONVILLE SCHOOLS

, supporting that claim with a phantom statistic,

f you took a random sample of people moving because of school choice 75% would be moving out of duval in this area

. Which seems to be saying that people ARE moving to get to schools that have achieved higher state grades.

Spidey, on the other hand, sees the impact of choice in Duval schools:

People are now driving all over the place, and/or bussing their kids to good schools...

.

Downtownparks actually demonstrates the use of school choice and the willingness to drive away from the closest public school,

its less than two miles, door to door, and no major roads between us.

The point of my original post is that the institution of public education is changing, and changing rapidly -- rapidly, at least, by historical standards.  Public schools in reality are no longer just the neighborhood school where every child knows each other and friendly parents gather for PTA meetings.  Schooling in America know includes assessing the barriers to sending your child to just the right school for them -- "its less than two miles, door to door, and no major roads between us."

And there are now  major market intrusions into public schools.  Choice and accountability programs are the intrusions.  Magnet schools try to sell themselves, as do charter schools.  In places where there is a large concentration of charter schools, like Detroit, Milwaukee, and Washington DC, even regular public schools are attempting to find market solutions to distinguish themselves from their charter school competitors.

Accountability is the other market intrusion. Middle-class parents research school grades in Florida before moving to new neighborhoods.  A statistically significant percentage of them make choices of where to move based on the Florida Accountability Program school grade earned by neighborhood schools. 

Dave is right to point out that parents want neighborhood schools.  Surveys show that.  But in practice a significant percentage of parents are choosing to move to areas where neighborhood schools have the grades they expect or are extending their definition of neighborhood schools to cover that just-right school that is less than two miles away and without a major road between the school and our front door.

[JUSTDAVE]

back to the original premise of the conversation with a few added tidbits

even though some parents want to choose schools while other kids in other schools are left behind is that the true stated function of the educational system NO as far as I am concerned the true function of the educational system is to allow everyone a viable means of getting along in society without most/some (whereever your standard is)of them falling behind. The magnet school system isn't allowing that. If you want your child to get more educated than the public schools allow you have several options, private schools, private tutoring, internet classes.
I don't blame anyone for taking advantage of magnets When I run for school board I will find the basic truth about exactly how many people in surrounding counties leave because of our schools. I feel the majority of people don't really have a direct vested interest in schools in general but this magnet program is the source for most of our traffic jams and really is a quality of life issue which matters to many people more than actual education issues do
  educating our children should be only one focus of a school board member If the majority of people with children who could/do live in Duval wish they  wouldn't have to thats wrong. I will get me more votes even though I am spending a lot of time talking to people who can't even vote for me.

Dave is right to point out that parents want neighborhood schools.  Surveys show that.  But in practice a significant percentage of parents are choosing to move to areas where neighborhood schools have the grades they expect or are extending their definition of neighborhood schools to cover that just-right school that is less than two miles away and without a major road between the school and our front door.

[rbirds]

Dave suggests:

but this magnet program is the source for most of our traffic jams

Really? Do you have any data on this or is it just a feeling you have?

Dave also suggests:

the majority of people don't really have a direct vested interest in schools in general

What do you mean by vested interest? One definition of vested interest is the state or condition of having a special interest in protecting or supporting something for the purpose of self-interest, gain or benefit, often financially or politically. From your point of view American citizens have no special interest in education?

In a 3/29/2007 Quinnipiac University poll, which you can find at http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1297.xml?ReleaseID=1033Florida respondents listed education as the third most important problem facing the state.  An older NPR/Kaiser/Kennedy School Education survey found similar results to an open-ended question about problems facing the nation.  Just as Floridians thought education the third most important issue to be dealt with, the NPR poll found that respondents nationwide thought education was the third most important issue.  You can see this poll at http://www.npr.org/programs/specials/poll/education/education.results.html

So by the definition of vested interest I mentioned earlier in this post, it looks like a sizable number of people do have a vested interest in education.  In some populations, citizens are indeed less interested.  Communities that attract older people find that government has a tougher time convincing citizens to pay more of their tax dollars to improve public education.  And some communities have a history of voting down school tax increases. But this sort of evidence of weak support for education is isolated.

When you wrote, Dave, that people are not interested in education, did you have any poll or survey data in mind?