Re-Envisioning Shipyards/Convention center

[vicupstate]

C S Foltz, you want all these things done, yet you don't want tax to go up, and you don't want to pay incentives.  Sorry, pal. It don't work like that.

I wish incentives weren't required either, but the real world says diffrently.  Otherwise you get left out of the rewards. 

The Hotel would never have come to Jax without those incentives.  Even with the incentives it has struggled.  The Super Bowl would not have been even a possibility without the Adam's Mark either.  Not that the SB was such a great investment.

The property taxes and room taxes that the hotel pays will eventually cover a big part of the investment.  Plus it increases the value of surrounding property which also pays various taxes.  You don't get something for nothing.

[brainstormer]

I can understand where you are coming from CS but unfortunately Vic is right.  Incentives are a part of doing business these days.  The problem for Jacksonville is the lack of vision and a strategic plan.  The city gives incentives so sporadically that we do not maximize the benefit of them.  That is why so many people talk about mass transit and clustering on this site.  With smart investments you get more for your money.  I would have to research the actual time line for buildings but let's think about how much more money we would have made from room taxes if the convention center and Hyatt had been attached since they were built?  How much more private investment would have occurred if the skyway had been finished instead of building a ton of parking garages?  That's why Ock is constantly saying invest in streetcars.  Upfront it is a lot of money, but it encourages private investment which increases the amount of taxes the city collects.  I don't have a problem with the city using incentives to increase growth.  My problem is with the city not having vision and a smart strategic plan. 

[CS Foltz]

brainstormer..........believe it or not, I do agree! You hit the nail on the head about the lack of vision or a plan! I really have no problem with increased taxes if they are parralled with a corresponding cut in the waste? City government has used incentives and tax breaks, as you stated, for trying to bring something into the inner core but without a correlated cut in the waste, we will continue to basically shoot ourselves in the foot! There has to be a limit to the incentives and the tax breaks without having something to show for giving our owned property to a developer no matter what the purpose is and that is where I have issue's! Convention Center in the proper location and with the support of the area around it, that is a no brainer, but lack of vision and a master plan for overall along with giving what little we actually own is not right no matter what the reasoning behind it! The Vescor project comes to mind for some reason............breaks up front and now they want more of the same plus incentives to attract business and this should have taken into account from the start! Do I need to point out that there is $29.4 Million Dollars which have not been used to enhance but just put into someones pocket since we show nothing for that money  and I mean nothing to show for it? So should I ask where did $29.4 Million Dollars go to?

[vicupstate]

C.S. , sometimes I think you post stuff just to get a rise out of others.

The $29.4 mm was spent on the buildings. Two historic vacant, decaying buildings were renovated.  Two eyesores became positive assets again.  They provide residential options that didn't previously exist and pay taxes, and add to property values just as the Hyatt does. 

You want your cake and eat it too.

No one, not even an astute businessman like Rood, could forsee in 2003 that the economy would be what it is today and that DT would flounder when it was clearly gaining momentum at that time.       

[CS Foltz]

visupstate.............I beg to differ! $1.3 Million dollars was spent on upgrades, so I ask again what happened to the other $29.4 Million Dollars. I have been in the Old American Bldg when there was no elevator and had to walk up the 18 stories to the top inorder to fix the T Molible site on the roof! What happened to the rest of the money? I have no problem with taxes being raised if there is something to show for the money and I have not seen any indication that this has taken place! Do you know for a fact that $29.4 Million Dollars went into the Bldgs?

[vicupstate]

What evidence do you have that the money didn't go into the buildings?  That work didn't get done for FREE and it obviously cost many millions to complete!  

Where are you getting that $1.3mm figure from?

[Charles Hunter]

No, CS, the elevator was working, they just wanted to make you walk up!!   

[stjr]

Incentives may have a place but we must be careful how we use them.  Why?  Because they distort the free market place and force decisions that maybe should not be made.  Also, because they enable others to justify further incentives for their projects leading to a trail of bad decisions and a wasteful spiral of public subsidies to offset other public subsidies.

One reason so many incentivized projects fail is because they really are not demanded by the free market.  The Hyatt, Jaguars, Vestcor Projects, Shipyards, Offshore Power Systems, and so many others have fallen below expectations in the free market because the market really wasn't in a position to support them and, despite public good feelings to the contrary, were or are not being supported with the free market's money pushing the projects back to the taxpayers or other investors.

And, why do Downtown and urban core projects need subsidies at all?  Because, we are already subsidizing urban sprawl and this is a way of equalizing the playing field.  If we made everyone pay for their share of their real burden on public resources, the free market would take care of everything without public subsidies for anyone.

[CS Foltz]

vicupstate............these are numbers posted courtesy of tufsu1 - two low interest loans,courtesy of the Bank of Jacksonville, one $17.8 Million Dollars @ 1.5% interest and the second of $16.5 @ 1.4%! They received a Grant of $5 Million Dollars and paid $4.75 Million for 11E and the Carling they put $ 3.6 Million in upgrades and paid a developers fee of $1.3 Million.....excluding the two loans which total $34.4 Million, total cost to this point $4.9 Million! That is the total cost, so once again I ask where is the other $29.4 Million? I have no problem with incentives or tax breaks, I have a problem with City Hall continuing to hand out my money and the developer returns with their hands out again! Nothing being done at the City level to curtail cost's, but stewards of our tax money......I don't get that impression at all!                                                                                                                                                                        stjr..............I agree!

[vicupstate]

Post the source of this figure:

3.6 Million in upgrades

There is no way in hell those two buildings could have been renovated for that amount.

[tufsu1]

the quote from CS above came from a T-U article...that said, I agree that there is no way that both buildings were renovated for $3.6 million.

[CS Foltz]

Gentlemen.......I have to ask...........just what was spent on those Bldgs? Vescor is asking for "Interest only" payments for three years and incentives (here we go again)to insert retail on the bottom floors. Now I have never been at the Carling, but I have been in the Old American Heritage...........there is no place to put retail there...............lobby and ground floor units! I don't know for sure just what, if anything,was spent to rehab both Bldgs but somehow I don't think $29.4 Million Dollars was spent on both! If I remember correctly 11E Bldg was rehab'd but each apartment was refurb'd by the person who bought it...........is this correct?

[tufsu1]

Now I have never been at the Carling, but I have been in the Old American Heritage...........there is no place to put retail there...............lobby and ground floor units!

guess you never saw the retail spaces on the street, including the one Starbucks had for 2 years (w/ lease incentives btw)?

and no, the individual apartments were not refurbished by each owner....both buildings were completely redone.

[vicupstate]

These are apartments, no one bought a unit.

[tufsu1]

These are apartments, no one bought a unit.

true...didn't want to mislead anyone with my "owner" statement...guess I should have said renter.